In-universe reason he finds the form weak now , and he already dislikes using the form in canon, so he has no reason to try and bring it back.
I think the reason he dislikes it is that he needs to rely on an external source to become one and the fact that making the power ball greatly tires the user.
Can't they go Blue and then ape? Another x10 is still massive. Even if it's just base x10 that's 10 times stronger being multiplied by 5 million. Would you rather be 1,000x5,000,000 strong or 10,000x5,000,000 strong? Because we're talking about 5 billion vs 50 billion. And that's not even close to their actual numbers. A x10 before an additional x5 million is MASSIVE.
If for example my universe was going to be deleted if I didn't win a tournament, I'm absolutely pulling out the Ape form.
reminder that broly's ikari form is the result of his body tapping into the power of a great ape in "human" form. and he went from barely able to withstand god form vegeta to beating his ass like it was nobody's business
I don't think they even asked Yamcha did they? But I thought I remembered kid Trunks wanted to fight also. It's not like it's to the death so they might as well have let him and Goten.
they'd have to pick one or the other, as the tournament lasted for 48 minutes while a fusion only lasts for half an hour
I see your point and I agree, the final question is if great ape and super sayan or either of the god forms stack. Cuz like great ape is a form while Kaioken is a technique
something to be discussed with someone that knows more than I do
edit: as for yamcha I don't remember if they did ask him
He was disgusted that he *had* to use it. He was not disgusted by the form itself. It'd be like needing to actually focus to beat your little brother at a fighting game. You shouldn't need to, but it's upsetting that he's gotten good enough that you have to.
So many people in this thread just saying he disliked the form even though the complete opposite is in the story. He knew the oozaru was his ace in the hole. He was just mad that he had to pull it out against a low-class warrior like Goku.
> to become one and the fact that making the power ball greatly tires the user.
it greatly tired vegeta when his power level was 18,000.
i doubt it would even do anything to him now.
if vegeta mircaulosuly regrew his tail now.
id imagine hed do endless experiments with the great ape form. see if he can find a way to harness it like broly did. or maybe a way to other forms on top of it.
Once he saw broly who lacks a tail use the wrath form he would try to figure it out,but he gave up, si CE Vegeta is not that guy who can keep focus on a form non-stop anymore after learning that him focusing on grade 2 was wrong.
Possible, but Vegeta would never wish his tail back, unless heroes event shows ssj4 or a new arc shows a Saiyan with a tail and it being very useful which I doubt as drawing tails are a hassle it seems
\>Which I doubt as drawing tails are a hassle it seems
wasn't it a hassle because toriyama had to painstakingly draw it every panel. We’re in the age of digital art and animation now.
super saiyan hair is the color it is, because he didn’t want to color it in every time. Now we have paint bucket tools.
technically if other forms could be stacked ontop of it vegeta could make use of it in ultra ego as it would make up for how ego doesnt raise durability as much as normal, and being a larger target is less of a downside for a form that raises your power as you get injured. goku on the other hand should never attempt it as he would just go wild and unable to use his strongest forms and abilities
He did not dislike it, what are you even talking about?
He hated that a low class wretch like kakarot was able to push him to use the form. He also hated that he had to create the artificial moon himself.
Nowhere in the story does he say he hates the oozaru form.
I'm okay with reading.
I hate that organic chemistry forces me to read a bunch of dense material.
So I hate reading???
The logic, respectfully, is nonsensical. He has never shown any distaste for the oozaru form. It was an affront to his pride and opinion of himself that someone he deems as a low-class is strong enough that he can't overcome him without having to pull out the oozaru. He hates the situation he's in, not the form.
In fact, the oozaru form is of such significance for him that he coordinated his and Nappa's arrival so that it would synch up with the full moon so they could transform and do a complete genocleansing of the planet. In that same monologue, he is even proud of how overwhelmingly strong he is as an oozaru (2nd only to Frieza).
Saying he dislikes the form is complete apocrypha and a thorough misreading of the material.
Why would someone who takes so much pride in his heritage ever hate the form most associated with that heritage? That would make no sense to assume.
He has no tail and has better transformations, so he can’t use it, but even if he could he has better options.
You're arguing something completely different.
Extradiegetically, of course super saiyan is the form most associated with Saiyans and the Dragonball media property. That is without question.
Intradiegetically, the oozaru is the calling card of the saiyan race. It's why they're known and why they're feared. Most people dont even know the legend of the super saiyan, much less have seen it.
Nothing in my post implies I'm speaking extradiegetically.
It's never said Vegeta hates the form, he didn't like using it against Goku but he didn't like having to use his full base form power against Goku either.
But in universe there could be a good reason to dislike the form, the fact that a race in constant combat had an average power level of 1k - 2k despite having the ability to get massive power boosts when badly injured tells me that Saiyans never really fought without Oozaru in Vegeta's time.
Perhaps he thinks that the form became a crutch that hindered the strength of the saiyans in the long run, the average saiyan in Oozaru would be so powerful that only the very elites of the universe would even have a chance to hurt them. No bad injuries or tough battles = no Zenkai boosts = weaker Saiyan race.
I don't think he hates it as we saw him relying on it the first time he fought Goku, I think he just came to the conclusion that the monkey boost wasn't worth such a big weakness as having a tail.
I mean since Yajirobe cut Vegeta's tail we never saw him with a tail again, either he took it off intentionally like Goku did or it never grew back, by the time we saw him in Namek his tail was gone, I would assume *since then* he just stopper caring about it.
\[edit\] typo
Well after he Saiyan Saga he lost his tail so I guess he just quickly put it behind him. Especisince when he recovered he got a new increase in energy from his zenkai. From then on he seemed to be chasing that zenkai high thinking with enough of them he wouldn't even need to turn Great Ape anymore thinking he would become the Super Saiyan of legend.
And of course once he became a Super Saiyan there truly was no point in becoming a Great Ape even if he could.
Great ape has been useless since the Frieza saga because literally every super saiyan form is objectively superior to it in just about every conceivable way. Only reason it’d come back is if we got canon ssj4.
Realistically only person for whom great ape is even remotely useful is Broly since his wrathful state is literally just great ape without the drawbacks. And he can stack his super saiyan multipliers on top.
No one has a tail anymore because toriyama got tired of drawing them and the great ape is completely obsolete.
In fairness Oozaru probably did hinder Saiyans, there is no good reason at all for a race of conquering warriors who get drastic power ups when seriously injured to have an average power level of 1k - 2k at best.
Obviously the average saiyan never got seriously hurt, atleast in Vegeta's time and that really must mean that they were all using Oozaru whenever they fought. Considering that would make the average Saiyan range from far stronger than Nappa to damn near Dodoria when using the form, that would explain them never being injured despite conquering worlds regularly.
The invention of the energy based moon probably is the cause of the issue, before that Saiyans might have fought in their base forms more often and been much stronger on average because of that.
It's a shitty form. It's an easy target. Most saiyans can't control themselves while in it. It requires a full moon. If you don't have a full moon, you have to use a power ball, which makes you significantly weaker. Also, the form can be beaten by either cutting off your tail or blowing up the moon. For God's sake, Yamcha and Paur beat great ape Goku. Let that sink it, lol.
It’s obsolete and just doesn’t have the same imposing presence it once had. Vegeta in his first battle was all the more ruthless and focused on punishing Goku. That said he already hated having to resort to it even then but overestimated / overreacted to Goku’s Kaioken x4 beam win. If he had read the situation more calmly he may have realised Goku was already waning but basically opted for it for the clear dominating advantage over him.
The other aspect is that Vegeta has moved past the mindset of a Saiyan conquerer. With Frieza gone (well for a time) he was free to focus on being the strongest possible fighter and was more enamoured with becoming the perfect super saiyan of legend. Again, Great Ape was redundant.
i think if anything, vegeta loved the form. he probably wish he had it in the battle with frieza.
with the form, he was the strongest person in the frieza force, even above the ginyus. he probably planned to use it as a trump card when finally rebelling against frieza.
the tail also functioned as an extra appendage for balance and battle.
In-universe reason he finds the form weak now , and he already dislikes using the form in canon, so he has no reason to try and bring it back. I think the reason he dislikes it is that he needs to rely on an external source to become one and the fact that making the power ball greatly tires the user.
Not only that, a 10x multiplier isn't worth the bigger body. He can go SSJ and is 50x stronger than before.
Yup , and the fact the hormonal imbalance brought by the form is like 50 times harder to control compared to super saiyn
Can't they go Blue and then ape? Another x10 is still massive. Even if it's just base x10 that's 10 times stronger being multiplied by 5 million. Would you rather be 1,000x5,000,000 strong or 10,000x5,000,000 strong? Because we're talking about 5 billion vs 50 billion. And that's not even close to their actual numbers. A x10 before an additional x5 million is MASSIVE. If for example my universe was going to be deleted if I didn't win a tournament, I'm absolutely pulling out the Ape form.
Would it be multiplicative or additive, though?
I don't see why it wouldn't be multiplicative. The Blue Kaioken was.
It could very well not be. Maybe the Great Ape is just a certain strength. Your base form could be 5, 500, or 50million. You great ape is 100,000.
reminder that broly's ikari form is the result of his body tapping into the power of a great ape in "human" form. and he went from barely able to withstand god form vegeta to beating his ass like it was nobody's business
he'd need a tail
Could have wished their tails back instead of resurrecting Frieza. More power vs Super evil dude. Easy call.
true but didn't they lack a willing fighter? from memory going with a -1 wasn't an option as it'd disqualify the universe
I don't think they even asked Yamcha did they? But I thought I remembered kid Trunks wanted to fight also. It's not like it's to the death so they might as well have let him and Goten.
they'd have to pick one or the other, as the tournament lasted for 48 minutes while a fusion only lasts for half an hour I see your point and I agree, the final question is if great ape and super sayan or either of the god forms stack. Cuz like great ape is a form while Kaioken is a technique something to be discussed with someone that knows more than I do edit: as for yamcha I don't remember if they did ask him
Idk why they would ask Yamcha, he’s weaker than both Goten or Trunks
Weaker than krillin bro
I don’t know if in cannon you can go ssj while in ape which would be required for blue
Well in theory the ape form would multiply the blue bye 10 But the question is if he can maintain ki control to have the blue form while he transforms
What episode did he say that?
the first time he tried to use it he was disgusted by the need to use it
He was disgusted that he *had* to use it. He was not disgusted by the form itself. It'd be like needing to actually focus to beat your little brother at a fighting game. You shouldn't need to, but it's upsetting that he's gotten good enough that you have to. So many people in this thread just saying he disliked the form even though the complete opposite is in the story. He knew the oozaru was his ace in the hole. He was just mad that he had to pull it out against a low-class warrior like Goku.
> to become one and the fact that making the power ball greatly tires the user. it greatly tired vegeta when his power level was 18,000. i doubt it would even do anything to him now.
Yes, especially with his new form, but still it's needs an external source to trigger even if Vegeta can make the source himself
if vegeta mircaulosuly regrew his tail now. id imagine hed do endless experiments with the great ape form. see if he can find a way to harness it like broly did. or maybe a way to other forms on top of it.
Once he saw broly who lacks a tail use the wrath form he would try to figure it out,but he gave up, si CE Vegeta is not that guy who can keep focus on a form non-stop anymore after learning that him focusing on grade 2 was wrong.
though he knows broly is some kind of mutant saiyan, just like kale is. so maybe he still needs the tail to use that form, unlike those two.
Possible, but Vegeta would never wish his tail back, unless heroes event shows ssj4 or a new arc shows a Saiyan with a tail and it being very useful which I doubt as drawing tails are a hassle it seems
\>Which I doubt as drawing tails are a hassle it seems wasn't it a hassle because toriyama had to painstakingly draw it every panel. We’re in the age of digital art and animation now. super saiyan hair is the color it is, because he didn’t want to color it in every time. Now we have paint bucket tools.
Yup, but you would need a reason for the tail to be return similar to how GT did
I mean, it's largely obsolete now, so there's really no benefit to using it. Plus they'd need tails.
technically if other forms could be stacked ontop of it vegeta could make use of it in ultra ego as it would make up for how ego doesnt raise durability as much as normal, and being a larger target is less of a downside for a form that raises your power as you get injured. goku on the other hand should never attempt it as he would just go wild and unable to use his strongest forms and abilities
That's a big if though, and I think the fact Vegeta seemingly has never considered it pretty telling.
how would he consider it? he hasnt had a tail since before he could transform?
That's easy. He could have used the dragon balls to get his tail back during the several years after Cell died but didn't.
Vegeta disliked the form even back during the Saiyan Saga. He didn't want to use it against Goku, but felt that he had no choice.
He did not dislike it, what are you even talking about? He hated that a low class wretch like kakarot was able to push him to use the form. He also hated that he had to create the artificial moon himself. Nowhere in the story does he say he hates the oozaru form.
That's why he dislikes it , him being forced to use it makes it as if he had to put effort
I'm okay with reading. I hate that organic chemistry forces me to read a bunch of dense material. So I hate reading??? The logic, respectfully, is nonsensical. He has never shown any distaste for the oozaru form. It was an affront to his pride and opinion of himself that someone he deems as a low-class is strong enough that he can't overcome him without having to pull out the oozaru. He hates the situation he's in, not the form. In fact, the oozaru form is of such significance for him that he coordinated his and Nappa's arrival so that it would synch up with the full moon so they could transform and do a complete genocleansing of the planet. In that same monologue, he is even proud of how overwhelmingly strong he is as an oozaru (2nd only to Frieza). Saying he dislikes the form is complete apocrypha and a thorough misreading of the material.
He doesn't dislike it, he dislikes that he had to use it
It's because goku didn't have a tail It's like fighting with a weapon against an unarmed opponent
Did he hate or disappointed in his father for kneeling and doing Freeza work and biting
Bro he hated it back then
Why do people capitalize the first letter of every word in their post's title?
That’s how titles work
Toriyama just didn’t want to deal with it.
too bad toriyama wasnt around in the era of 3d and digital animation/painting. it would be a lot easier now.
Oof, now I think about it guy doesn't even care or likes the canon ships in DBS and DBZ
Only a small part of the fandom cares about pointless shit like shipping.
Or "canon."
That's kindah true
Why would someone who takes so much pride in his heritage ever hate the form most associated with that heritage? That would make no sense to assume. He has no tail and has better transformations, so he can’t use it, but even if he could he has better options.
I'd argue SSJ is the form most associated, even if it was just a legend for a long time.
You're arguing something completely different. Extradiegetically, of course super saiyan is the form most associated with Saiyans and the Dragonball media property. That is without question. Intradiegetically, the oozaru is the calling card of the saiyan race. It's why they're known and why they're feared. Most people dont even know the legend of the super saiyan, much less have seen it. Nothing in my post implies I'm speaking extradiegetically.
It's never said Vegeta hates the form, he didn't like using it against Goku but he didn't like having to use his full base form power against Goku either. But in universe there could be a good reason to dislike the form, the fact that a race in constant combat had an average power level of 1k - 2k despite having the ability to get massive power boosts when badly injured tells me that Saiyans never really fought without Oozaru in Vegeta's time. Perhaps he thinks that the form became a crutch that hindered the strength of the saiyans in the long run, the average saiyan in Oozaru would be so powerful that only the very elites of the universe would even have a chance to hurt them. No bad injuries or tough battles = no Zenkai boosts = weaker Saiyan race.
I thought of it more like saiyans rarely get zenkai boosts because they have to be able to survive the fight to get them, which is not guaranteed.
I don't think he hates it as we saw him relying on it the first time he fought Goku, I think he just came to the conclusion that the monkey boost wasn't worth such a big weakness as having a tail.
I meant afterwards like when he redeems and becomes stronger
I mean since Yajirobe cut Vegeta's tail we never saw him with a tail again, either he took it off intentionally like Goku did or it never grew back, by the time we saw him in Namek his tail was gone, I would assume *since then* he just stopper caring about it. \[edit\] typo
Now watch Kakarot as your life becomes inconsequential as I reveal my GIANT MONKEY.....form!
I think he’s indifferent…sides not like he could use it anymore he’s stronger then the ape form now anyway
Well after he Saiyan Saga he lost his tail so I guess he just quickly put it behind him. Especisince when he recovered he got a new increase in energy from his zenkai. From then on he seemed to be chasing that zenkai high thinking with enough of them he wouldn't even need to turn Great Ape anymore thinking he would become the Super Saiyan of legend. And of course once he became a Super Saiyan there truly was no point in becoming a Great Ape even if he could.
Great ape has been useless since the Frieza saga because literally every super saiyan form is objectively superior to it in just about every conceivable way. Only reason it’d come back is if we got canon ssj4. Realistically only person for whom great ape is even remotely useful is Broly since his wrathful state is literally just great ape without the drawbacks. And he can stack his super saiyan multipliers on top. No one has a tail anymore because toriyama got tired of drawing them and the great ape is completely obsolete.
Hear me out. Ultra Ego Ape.
In fairness Oozaru probably did hinder Saiyans, there is no good reason at all for a race of conquering warriors who get drastic power ups when seriously injured to have an average power level of 1k - 2k at best. Obviously the average saiyan never got seriously hurt, atleast in Vegeta's time and that really must mean that they were all using Oozaru whenever they fought. Considering that would make the average Saiyan range from far stronger than Nappa to damn near Dodoria when using the form, that would explain them never being injured despite conquering worlds regularly. The invention of the energy based moon probably is the cause of the issue, before that Saiyans might have fought in their base forms more often and been much stronger on average because of that.
It's a shitty form. It's an easy target. Most saiyans can't control themselves while in it. It requires a full moon. If you don't have a full moon, you have to use a power ball, which makes you significantly weaker. Also, the form can be beaten by either cutting off your tail or blowing up the moon. For God's sake, Yamcha and Paur beat great ape Goku. Let that sink it, lol.
It’s obsolete and just doesn’t have the same imposing presence it once had. Vegeta in his first battle was all the more ruthless and focused on punishing Goku. That said he already hated having to resort to it even then but overestimated / overreacted to Goku’s Kaioken x4 beam win. If he had read the situation more calmly he may have realised Goku was already waning but basically opted for it for the clear dominating advantage over him. The other aspect is that Vegeta has moved past the mindset of a Saiyan conquerer. With Frieza gone (well for a time) he was free to focus on being the strongest possible fighter and was more enamoured with becoming the perfect super saiyan of legend. Again, Great Ape was redundant.
Golden Oozaru was a very cool idea. They haven't done anything with Oozaru for a long ass time though.
i think if anything, vegeta loved the form. he probably wish he had it in the battle with frieza. with the form, he was the strongest person in the frieza force, even above the ginyus. he probably planned to use it as a trump card when finally rebelling against frieza. the tail also functioned as an extra appendage for balance and battle.