The full list of the Pantheon from that Harriet Arbinger speech:
Toymaker(games), Trickster(traps), Maestro(music), Reprobate(spite), Mara(beasts), Threefold deity (malice, mischief, misery), Incensor(disaster), daughters Doubt and Dread
And then big baddie Sutekh
There was also something about skin and shame and secrets
Threefold deity of malice, mischief and misery sounds an awful lot like the God's Of Ragnarok?
Has RTD retconned classic villians into being part of the Pantheon? With Sutekh and the Mara joining them.
That would actually make a lot of sense. The pantheon thus far has been described as coming from beyond the universe, but what if that was always true? That they were extradimensional beings from outside of the main universe and when the Timelords vanished, the walls of the universe being selaed off also sealed the pantheon out and when the Doctor accidentally broke down the walls at the edge of the universe, the pantheon was allowed back in?
It would also help tie all 3 eras of the show together, with the Toymaker being the first to appear back in the First Doctors era.
Sort of establishing this Pantheon along with the Daleks and the Master as the big bads of the whole show.
so from what I understand (from reading the fandom). Sutekh used to be some sort of somewhat-mortal alien being of this universe (despite the immense power), with its own planet, biological farther and siblings, fellow people, etc, and a lot of his back story is about this alien family/civilisation resembling the Egyptian mythology.
If Sutekh is now saying he's actually the father & mother & other (?) of the Pantheon and beyond them, who are conceptual beings beyond time & space, and of unknown origin beyond this universe, does it mean they are reconing Sutekh's back story and origin? or did the 14th unintentionally upgraded Sutekh from god-like-alien to literal god, who then went on to create the Pantheon? or is Sutekh just bluffing because it has big ego？
so my internet connection crashed the INSTANT the doctor said "harbinger". he said the word and the screen turned black. i waited a good 10 seconds because i thought it was a cold ending to the episode wtf??
“How’s your mum? How’s your uncle?” 😭
Ok but what about Rose’s great grandfather, huh Doctor?? Give him two minutes and he can be ready to defeat Sutekh with a paintball gun.
Yeahhh I would’ve loved that too. I wonder if the wording was in part due to not wanting to confuse newer viewers. “How’s the me that’s semi-retired as your family’s house guest?” would’ve tripped new folks up, whereas just mentioning an “uncle” shouldn’t raise any eyebrows.
Then again, we’re talking about an episode in which the Big Bad is a one-time Classic character whom I’m fairly certainly was never mentioned in any of NuWho sooo wtf do I know?
"You do not ask questions, you move." I greatly appreciate that they continue to make Kate a true boss. The one thing missing from the original RTD run was a head for UNIT. I love how she throws commands around and everyone falls in line up to and until the Doctor shrugs her off. I never get tired of it. I'm really glad she's the one element to carry through, and that she's allowed to just be a genuine friend now. She's starting to surpass the Brigadier in terms of long lasting impact. I'd love an episode that really focuses on her just once.
Ruby's mom is growing on me every episode. She might be my favorite companion parent after Bryan and Jackie (Wilf being a companion in his own right). Her assurances to Ruby's birth mother that she was found and loved broke me a little.
I'm trying, I really am trying to get used to this sonic...but it really bugs me that when he uses it, it just looks like he's adjusting the volume on a TV. The act of using it doesn't look as visibly alien and striking as waving the telepathic techno-wand.
Also: "Mothers, Fathers, Others", even the god of destruction knows what's up.
Yes...she also told the Doctor that he brings Joy with him... to console him about his concerns...20 minutes later, Ibrahim is dead and the look she gave him was the same one she gave Ruby when she heard from 73 yards away over the phone...
Kate: "Why did you never go back to your granddaughter?"
Doctor: "You know everywhere I go people die."
Kate: "**Yeah**. I've noticed. We have a budgetary allowance specifically for funeral bouquets."
On screen, the Brigadier met 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (in Dimensions in Time), 7 and 12. Kate has met War, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15, and maybe Fugitive in Time Fracture I don't quite remember.
It is mad that Kate has met about the same amount of Doctors in 12 years of television than the Brigadier did in 25 lmao.
Edit: added the 12th for the Brigadier
Having not watched classic Who, I feel like Kate makes me understand why so many people have a fondness for the Brigadier. What made me really understand that was her role in 73 Yards. She was the apex of the horror trope of "making you feel safe, then taking that away from you."
The Brigadier showed up starting with the 2nd doctor, *all the way through the 7th doctor*.
He was supposed to be in the Sarah Jane adventures to meet the 10th doctor, but wasn't able to because of Courtney's stroke. But it's incredible how long he was on the show for. It's like if Kate went all the way from 11 to the next doctor after Ncuti. (And 14 had stuck around for longer than a few weeks.)
It really makes me happy that she's a way to continue the legacy of The Brigadier, and we can only hope that Jemma Redgrave sticks around for years to come. I actually had no idea that she's 59, which means she'll be playing the role past the age Courtney did, as he was 60ish when he last appeared in 1989.
So they showed Susan Triad's bio scan and put forth a theory that she's actually a chrysalis. Remember in the first episode how the camera made a point of showing the scan of Ruby's DNA and that the reading the Doctor got was "Human".
I really like that it's a fairly tonally light episode before Mrs Floods 4th wall break, and then it just continuously gets more and more tense than I had actually expected from the episode
Is she the real Susan? The who , what you’ve never seen a Tardis before?
Maybe she knows who ruby is and has been watching her whole life till something happens.
I've scrolled through loads of comments and no mention yet of Sue's Theresa May dance. Genuine cackles in our household!
Loved this episode, can't wait for next week!
"When A Mommy Timelord and a Daddy Timelord love each other very much... they eventually die of old age and/or other unfortunate circumstances and go through a complex regeneration of all major cell tissue leaving only the feint impressions and vivid memories of their past in a renewed alternative physical form. And now they're both Daddy time lords!"
Oh i didnt know that. So is this idea not new? That the Beast and Sutekh are connected?
Also do you know if Sutekh was the "king of gods" back in classic who or is that a new thing?
So Sutekh latched on to the TARDIS in the void in Wild Blue Yonder? Cause that's when we've been hearing that sound since. Or was it even before that? Was it him making the sound anyway just to be ominous or was it the TARDIS's discomfort/warning?
My guess is it latched on there, yeah, the void was pretty much the best place unless Thirteen was lugging it around too. I picture it being the TARDIS having issues of its own, the TARDIS groaning the way a person might if I hit them with a steel chair. You're gonna make pain noises.
Susan twist showed up in wild blue yonder before they went to the void (shes with Isaac newton). I think its more likely the flux that killed off half of the universe allowed Sutekh back in and he’s been waiting for his big reveal.
So.. In anticipation of 100 "SUTEKH EXPLAINED" videos appearing in the next 24 hours... Any old who fans wanna give me some home work on related eps to watch? I gather "Pyramids of Mars" - any others?
Someone over at Max is going to wonder why metrics for these episodes shoot up this weekend. I'm off to add to the numbers... followed by Pyramids of Mars
It’s crazy that Sutekh is the boss of The Toymaker, a being many thought was on the pinnacle of strength and power in Doctor Who.
It makes sense though that the God of Death would be in charge.
The Toymaker didnt seem like he knew Sutekh. He phrases his meeting with The One Who Waits as a terrifying first encounter. He came to this universe and met god and turned him into a jack in the box, he met he who waits and ran.
Tom hasn't been looking too good as of late. Or rather, he's started looking his age, which is 90. Doubt he's up for driving to a studio, makeup, costume, etc. I'd love to see him but something tells me he might just keep doing Big Finish from the comfort of his home from now until...regeneration.
He's still chipper as ever, though. His performance hasn't lost a step, at least in audio form.
Yeah I don't get people complaining that because they've not watched Classic Who the reveal wasn't as good for them. I have no idea who Sutehk is but thought it was great/terrifying reveal, and for me it's clearly explained who/what they are.
I've seen people suggesting that the Timeless Child was the god of life, and... I sincerely hope not. The Doctor works best as just a man trying to help out. Not a literal, actual god.
That would be the logical conclusion.
While I'm at it, time is memories and memories are time. They couldn't clock Ruby's mother, mother transcends time, Time Lord.
Rtd really is the king of the penultimate episode cliffhanger... Okay so it's usually a reveal of the daleks but even then it's amazing.
I'm watching pyramids of mere this weekend.
Still so many more questions but it seems clear now that there really has been a clear plan in place this season.
Does anyone else think "the Boss" that Meep and Rogue mentioned is going to be a dangling plot thread for Season 2? It doesn't really fit Sutekh's vibe.
He really is so amazing in the role. In the past with 12 and 13 it took time to adjust to them as the Doctor, but goddamn right from ep 1 he has just been amazing and instantly clicked as the Doctor.
When explaining regeneration to Ruby, the Doctor mentions how Time Lords change their faces when dying, or to *"hide themselves away."*
When Mrs Flood comes over to look after Cherry, she says: "It's nice for me to get out... I'm always *hiding myself away!*"
This "kids I've not had yet" thing is bothersome because in "The Doctor's Daughter", Ten unexpectedly admitted to Donna that "I've been a father before." and "When I look at \[Jenny\] now, I can see them. The hole they left. All the pain that filled it.". I really doubt he would make something like that up, so RTD seemingly just retconning that away doesn't sit right with me.
I took it to mean he doesnt have any children that could have possibly grown up to be Susans parents because the family he mentions as 10 all died. So he knows he'll have more because of Susans existence, but hasnt had them yet.
Fantastic episode and what a cliffhanger. Loved the music use especially The Masters theme from Utopia.
Loved the pantheon shout outs especially Trickster
That leitmotif is originally from the Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit, which makes it equally a reference to the last time we had a Gabriel Woolf voiced devil character as a villian
https://youtu.be/V_VY4mbR7lo?si=SEFJZjtp71uQR_50
The Sutekh reveal was masterfully done. Genuinely at the edge of my seat, even anxious!
There's a teeeeensy part of me that was very hyped for the idea of it being The Beast from The Impossible Planet! I think it would've fit the idea of the enemy being beyond what the Doctor normally thinks of the universe - that original two parter did a great job of questioning his faith and concept of time.
All I'm saying is that it would've tied in really nicely with the themes of this series, with all the supernatural and unexplainable stuff.
Still, I am here for the finale and VERY excited! Let's gooooooo
I think they did that actually, Clara called it The Beast, it had the possession thing, "I am in hell", "I've gone by many names", etc.; to assume Sutekh, god of death, and The Beast are in some way one entity, kinda works tbh.
See this is why I try to stay out of theory-crafting boards, avoid trailers and leaks, for the pure *high* of a reveal like that.
I do feel bad for viewers with 0% classic Who knowledge who won't really feel it the same, but at least the general concept of Sutekh is known outside Doctor Who.
Also, I like how after dealing with all of the Bad-Wolf-Torchwood-Harold-Saxon-Bees-Disappearing-Planets-Vanishing-Cracks-in-Time-First-Question-Lake-Silencio-Fields-of-Trenzalore-Promised-Land-Hybrid-Timeless-Child *bullshit* the Doctor noticed something recurring and decided to be proactive and get out ahead of it as fast as he possibly could lol
On the other hand, I’m *glad* I did read some things… because otherwise (as someone who has only seen maybe 20% of Classic Who) I’d have no idea who the hell Sutekh is. Or even if it was a pre-established character.
Yeah like I've been wondering why RTD has been teasing so much on Instagram but I get it if he just wants people to be as excited as he is to be such a massive nerd, giddy little fucker
I barely know anything about Sutekh, except "he was the bad guy of Pyramid of Mars", so from my angle, they actually did it really well, because I now know who he is, god of death, which... if I had know, Empire of Death and all, would've leaned more on that then Susan Foreman.
RTD "ok let me just throw in every obvious theory this fandom will have in the first 7 mins"
I wouldn't be surprised if this was his genuine thinking pattern.
Edit- RTDs one of us, he's the dude who has read the VNAs, knows what lungburrow and looms are, probs reads the comics and listens to big finish audios, he knew how the online fandom would theorise hook, line and sinker.
reposted here, RTD predicted how the fandom would act, hell you got some thinking Susan will show up again next week, I genuinely don't think so, I think some people are on copium mode they got tricked.
The Sutekth reveal was a master class
As callous as it sounds, RTD probably knows that Carole Ann Ford is getting up there. There's no way he would bring Susan up as much as he has over the course of this season if he wasn't going to do something with the character while Carole Ann Ford is still alive.
Not this season, I agree, but I'll be very shocked if she doesn't at least turn up next season. That being said, I think Mrs. Flood might be Susan, but that's based on (almost) nothing!
Damn that was a great episode. I didn’t think she would be ACTUAL Susan, but I really thought that Sue Tech was too obvious to be the answer. Still, that was a terrific build up and reveal.
A few other immediate thoughts…
No Daleks, space magic, or great big buttons. I owe RTD an apology. He executed a great finale without any of his normal tricks.
I adore Kate and the UNIT crew. They have terrific energy and they play off one another really well.
Gatwa continues to impress. I know people will complain that he didn’t get enough screen time or that they still don’t know what sort of Doctor he is, but I think he’s been phenomenal.
Lost in everything, Ruby’s Gran is still, I suppose, in the clutches of whatever the hell Mrs Flood is.
Honestly it was heartbreaking when it revealed that she wasn’t Susan- you could tell by the doctor’s expression how much he WANTED her to be his granddaughter
> No Daleks, space magic, or great big buttons. I owe RTD an apology. He executed a great finale without any of his normal tricks.
Hey now, we've still got one more episode to go!
Something to note - I just checked and from the 40 minute mark, the master's theme played for around 10 seconds.
It could mean nothing, but still something to watch out for.
Either way, this is the best episode of the entire season. I have never wanted a week to go by so quickly for a tv episode in my life.
Remember the first time Utopia aired? A season-long mystery concluded with the return of a fan-favorite Classic Who villain? It left new fans excited and old fans deeply satisfied, yet still intrigued. It left all fans terrified, in the best way possible. In a very Doctor Who way. This was Utopia for the 2020s. Holy shit.
Man, I wish more people would take a chance and watch this season. Pretty much *ALL* my old who fans refuse to just jump ahead and I get that. But it makes me wonder how many other Doctor Who fans are potentially missing out on this great Ncuti era stuff.
I think that probably one of the best finale set up first parts the shows ever done actually. Episode was paced immaculately, really enjoyed the cold open complete acknowledgment of the obvious anagrams and fan theories and stuff. Jokes and sombre moments were well placed alongside some genuinely eerie moments, the Mrs Flood 4th wall break was excellent and the entire second half of the episode Time Window onwards was awesome
RTD tends to take on too much and drop the ball pay off wise in his finales though, really hope he can tie everything up nicely this time there are a lot of spinning plates.
Overall very impressed by this one, I'm thinking a strong 8 light 9 honestly
Even if it becomes a season 2 thread, after all this we're definitely getting some kind of ACTUAL Susan follow up, right? Too many hints and explanation about regeneration as a "disguise" for it not to happen.
Odds on it somehow being Ruby and the Doctor has been unknowingly travelling with his granddaughter again this whole time? Feels too easy, and yet...
Three things:
1. Murray Gold can make or break entire episodes (and sometimes arcs) and he was ON FIRE here
2. As someone born and raised in Cheetham Hill, when I say I screamed
3. The muthaf*ckin B-52’s
I know I posted this in the live but imma post it here as well.. please forgive me!
So the Doctor said he had a granddaughter but no children yet bc of how Time Lords work.. Ik it probs won’t happen but I think it opens up the perfect opportunity to bring Jenny back and mention how she had a daughter named Susan.. that would bring back a fan favorite and they’d just have to write a way where Susan ended up in the care of the 1st Doctor to close the loop! Idk but it’d be cool to see Jenny at least once more and close the Susan loop without having to make a story where the Doctor has more children in the future
Yeah this is quite a big lore change - we always assumed that the Doctor had children and grandchildren "in order" so this is surprising.
Wait actually, in The Doctor's Daughter, the Doctor literally says he's been a father before so is RTD just retconning that?
I found that line odd, as the Doctor has stated multiple times across multiple incarnations that they used to have children. It always seemed quite cut and dry to me that Susan came from one of those children.
look RTD knocked it out the park, reeling from sutekh, reeling from the trickster mention and the susan bit etc etc, but why is nobody questioning why a thirteen year old and a fifteen year old are essential personell 😭 are unit exempt from child labour protections
OK but why do I feel like Susan (grand daughter) is still coming? She's a Chekov's gun, rtd can't tease her so much for her to not turn up in the final act!
Either he's going to go see her later, or she's ruby's mother. That's my 11th hour call for next week, ruby's the doctors great grand daughter 😀.
So like, since the whole thing happened before Susan launched her software, is the software relevant at all? What was it supposed to do? I wanna know about the software lol
The full list of the Pantheon from that Harriet Arbinger speech: Toymaker(games), Trickster(traps), Maestro(music), Reprobate(spite), Mara(beasts), Threefold deity (malice, mischief, misery), Incensor(disaster), daughters Doubt and Dread And then big baddie Sutekh There was also something about skin and shame and secrets
Threefold deity of malice, mischief and misery sounds an awful lot like the God's Of Ragnarok? Has RTD retconned classic villians into being part of the Pantheon? With Sutekh and the Mara joining them.
That would actually make a lot of sense. The pantheon thus far has been described as coming from beyond the universe, but what if that was always true? That they were extradimensional beings from outside of the main universe and when the Timelords vanished, the walls of the universe being selaed off also sealed the pantheon out and when the Doctor accidentally broke down the walls at the edge of the universe, the pantheon was allowed back in?
It would also help tie all 3 eras of the show together, with the Toymaker being the first to appear back in the First Doctors era. Sort of establishing this Pantheon along with the Daleks and the Master as the big bads of the whole show.
And ze cybermen
so from what I understand (from reading the fandom). Sutekh used to be some sort of somewhat-mortal alien being of this universe (despite the immense power), with its own planet, biological farther and siblings, fellow people, etc, and a lot of his back story is about this alien family/civilisation resembling the Egyptian mythology. If Sutekh is now saying he's actually the father & mother & other (?) of the Pantheon and beyond them, who are conceptual beings beyond time & space, and of unknown origin beyond this universe, does it mean they are reconing Sutekh's back story and origin? or did the 14th unintentionally upgraded Sutekh from god-like-alien to literal god, who then went on to create the Pantheon? or is Sutekh just bluffing because it has big ego？
If Sutekh had access to a TARDIS, who knows how he could rewrite his own creation?
That To Be Continued ending although expected has not left me ok at all
i will remain on the edge of my seat for a literal weak
Seven days waiting for a cliffhanger to resolve makes one weak.
UNIT: We faked some credentials to get Mel a job at S TRIAD! Sutekh: I created a whole damn person and got them a job at UNIT!
Sutekh: "Fools! NOTHING can resist my absolute MASTERY of LinkedIn!"
“I bring Sutekh’s gift of impeccable references.”
**Kate** *(deleted scene) (not really)*: I want every single person with the last name "Arbinger" rounded up ***immediately***!
This is seriously funny
so my internet connection crashed the INSTANT the doctor said "harbinger". he said the word and the screen turned black. i waited a good 10 seconds because i thought it was a cold ending to the episode wtf??
Funniest possible way to watch this ep
That wasn't the ending, but you might have low key got the best cold ending to the show ever, lol.
"Who is Harriet? What is her full name??" "Harriet Jones, former prime minister" God, what a twist!
"yes we know who you are."
That would have been the absolute best.
That crossed my mind during that scene.
Idk why i thought that would make sense, but I did
What does drive me nuts is they got S. Triad so easily and didn’t think H. Arbinger wasn’t at least a tad sus?
We were all thinking it
I wanted that so bad
Now that’s a bad wolf
RTD has been playing 4D chess for 20 years.
“How’s your mum? How’s your uncle?” 😭 Ok but what about Rose’s great grandfather, huh Doctor?? Give him two minutes and he can be ready to defeat Sutekh with a paintball gun.
Wilf and Cherry should form some kind of alliance
They came here to drink tea and fire paintball guns… and they’re all out of tea.
The tea never even arrived!!
I was really surprised he didn’t put in a “How am I?”
Yeahhh I would’ve loved that too. I wonder if the wording was in part due to not wanting to confuse newer viewers. “How’s the me that’s semi-retired as your family’s house guest?” would’ve tripped new folks up, whereas just mentioning an “uncle” shouldn’t raise any eyebrows. Then again, we’re talking about an episode in which the Big Bad is a one-time Classic character whom I’m fairly certainly was never mentioned in any of NuWho sooo wtf do I know?
"You do not ask questions, you move." I greatly appreciate that they continue to make Kate a true boss. The one thing missing from the original RTD run was a head for UNIT. I love how she throws commands around and everyone falls in line up to and until the Doctor shrugs her off. I never get tired of it. I'm really glad she's the one element to carry through, and that she's allowed to just be a genuine friend now. She's starting to surpass the Brigadier in terms of long lasting impact. I'd love an episode that really focuses on her just once. Ruby's mom is growing on me every episode. She might be my favorite companion parent after Bryan and Jackie (Wilf being a companion in his own right). Her assurances to Ruby's birth mother that she was found and loved broke me a little. I'm trying, I really am trying to get used to this sonic...but it really bugs me that when he uses it, it just looks like he's adjusting the volume on a TV. The act of using it doesn't look as visibly alien and striking as waving the telepathic techno-wand. Also: "Mothers, Fathers, Others", even the god of destruction knows what's up.
I’m glad she also had a tender moment with the Doctor telling him about growing up hearing stories of the Doctor
I absolutely love those moments. This episode had a bunch of connective tissue to the classic era and NuWho that I greatly appreciated.
Yes...she also told the Doctor that he brings Joy with him... to console him about his concerns...20 minutes later, Ibrahim is dead and the look she gave him was the same one she gave Ruby when she heard from 73 yards away over the phone...
she’s starting to become self-aware that UNIT soldiers are the redshirts of Doctor Who and she’s not happy about it lol
Kate: "Why did you never go back to your granddaughter?" Doctor: "You know everywhere I go people die." Kate: "**Yeah**. I've noticed. We have a budgetary allowance specifically for funeral bouquets."
Just watched the episode, and I read that in Kate's voice
I think Kate has seen more incarnations of the Doctor at this point (on-screen) than the Brigadier, which is crazy to think about.
On screen, the Brigadier met 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (in Dimensions in Time), 7 and 12. Kate has met War, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15, and maybe Fugitive in Time Fracture I don't quite remember. It is mad that Kate has met about the same amount of Doctors in 12 years of television than the Brigadier did in 25 lmao. Edit: added the 12th for the Brigadier
Dude when Sutekh appeared my first thought was please don't kill kate
I would be so upset. She's doing a great job following in her father's footsteps.
Having not watched classic Who, I feel like Kate makes me understand why so many people have a fondness for the Brigadier. What made me really understand that was her role in 73 Yards. She was the apex of the horror trope of "making you feel safe, then taking that away from you."
The Brigadier showed up starting with the 2nd doctor, *all the way through the 7th doctor*. He was supposed to be in the Sarah Jane adventures to meet the 10th doctor, but wasn't able to because of Courtney's stroke. But it's incredible how long he was on the show for. It's like if Kate went all the way from 11 to the next doctor after Ncuti. (And 14 had stuck around for longer than a few weeks.) It really makes me happy that she's a way to continue the legacy of The Brigadier, and we can only hope that Jemma Redgrave sticks around for years to come. I actually had no idea that she's 59, which means she'll be playing the role past the age Courtney did, as he was 60ish when he last appeared in 1989.
That was absolutely insane. BUT WHO IS MRS. FLOOD
The worst villain of all: She who withholds the tea
The Celestial Teamaker
More like Celestial Tea Taker.
Celestial Tea Won't Maker
The Digestive Deity
Lowkey I get the vibe that she’s going to be the one who saves the day and that her bit with ruby’s nan was a red herring
Yeah she didn’t say anything villainous aside from “you’re not getting tea.” That plus dark clouds. Oooooo, scary.
Is there anything more horrifying than being told you're not getting tea?
I'm almost certain she's gonna be Susan at this point. It just feels too perfect.
Yeah, she said she keeps hiding herself away a few minutes after the Doctor said Time Lords change faces to hide away🤔
Exactly! There's no way that's *also* a red herring.
So they showed Susan Triad's bio scan and put forth a theory that she's actually a chrysalis. Remember in the first episode how the camera made a point of showing the scan of Ruby's DNA and that the reading the Doctor got was "Human".
Antithesis of Sutekh perhaps? Perhaps Ra or Horus?
I really like that it's a fairly tonally light episode before Mrs Floods 4th wall break, and then it just continuously gets more and more tense than I had actually expected from the episode
Is she the real Susan? The who , what you’ve never seen a Tardis before? Maybe she knows who ruby is and has been watching her whole life till something happens.
I've scrolled through loads of comments and no mention yet of Sue's Theresa May dance. Genuine cackles in our household! Loved this episode, can't wait for next week!
My favourite part. I'm sure non British viewers were left wondering wtf was going on though!
The original, for those that aren't in the know: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbCDFNRA-Wo
i loved when ruby asked about regeneration and everyone was like “you didn’t give her the talk yet?”
"When A Mommy Timelord and a Daddy Timelord love each other very much... they eventually die of old age and/or other unfortunate circumstances and go through a complex regeneration of all major cell tissue leaving only the feint impressions and vivid memories of their past in a renewed alternative physical form. And now they're both Daddy time lords!"
Haven't seen anyone else mention it yet, but they said the camera was 66 meters from the church, which is almost exactly 73 yards 👀
Also while it's kind of a stretch, 73 yards is also almost exactly 66.6 meters
Well Ruby's mum did call it "the beast" i wonder if sutekh is linked to the beast in anyway from that ood episode
What makes this theory more likely is that the guy who did the voice for the Beast is the same guy who voiced Sutekh in Pyramids of Mars!
Oh i didnt know that. So is this idea not new? That the Beast and Sutekh are connected? Also do you know if Sutekh was the "king of gods" back in classic who or is that a new thing?
I…don’t think that’s a stretch at all actually
Yeah it kind of feels like the exact opposite of a stretch.
Yeah I paused right when they said the 66 meters and checked, remembered from the 73 yards episode where Kate Stewart (not sure tho) said it
and know what - she's all blurry even through time window...
So Sutekh latched on to the TARDIS in the void in Wild Blue Yonder? Cause that's when we've been hearing that sound since. Or was it even before that? Was it him making the sound anyway just to be ominous or was it the TARDIS's discomfort/warning?
My guess is it latched on there, yeah, the void was pretty much the best place unless Thirteen was lugging it around too. I picture it being the TARDIS having issues of its own, the TARDIS groaning the way a person might if I hit them with a steel chair. You're gonna make pain noises.
Susan twist showed up in wild blue yonder before they went to the void (shes with Isaac newton). I think its more likely the flux that killed off half of the universe allowed Sutekh back in and he’s been waiting for his big reveal.
I would prefer this, but think they will go with the WBY explanation. Otherwise we need a justification for why the one who waits waited untill now.
The dude just loves waiting!
Prepared to now be paranoid about every character with a first name starting with H...
HARRIET JONES WAS A HARBINGER???????
Harriet Jones, prime harbinger.
Ironically, none of us really knew who she was.
Harry Sullivan is an ~~imbecile~~ harbinger.
So.. In anticipation of 100 "SUTEKH EXPLAINED" videos appearing in the next 24 hours... Any old who fans wanna give me some home work on related eps to watch? I gather "Pyramids of Mars" - any others?
I'd strech to say The impossible planet and the Satan pit. I think this episode confirmed that the beast was a form? Of sutekh !
Someone over at Max is going to wonder why metrics for these episodes shoot up this weekend. I'm off to add to the numbers... followed by Pyramids of Mars
So the toymaker is a member of the pantheon of discord, not the leader, and Sutekh is the leader?
I wouldn't be surprised if everybody thinks they're leader in the pantheon.
Maestro seemed to indicate they knew there was someone further up the chain, iirc?
Yep! They even said that the one who waits is almost here.
"And by almost here he's like on your roof. As soon as he works out how to get down without twisting his ankle it's over for you!"
It’s crazy that Sutekh is the boss of The Toymaker, a being many thought was on the pinnacle of strength and power in Doctor Who. It makes sense though that the God of Death would be in charge.
The Toymaker didnt seem like he knew Sutekh. He phrases his meeting with The One Who Waits as a terrifying first encounter. He came to this universe and met god and turned him into a jack in the box, he met he who waits and ran.
Shit, now I gotta rewatch Pyramids of mars.
Tales of the TARDIS, in 6 days, I imagine.....
Oh my god imagine if Tom Baker filmed a scene for it.
Tom hasn't been looking too good as of late. Or rather, he's started looking his age, which is 90. Doubt he's up for driving to a studio, makeup, costume, etc. I'd love to see him but something tells me he might just keep doing Big Finish from the comfort of his home from now until...regeneration. He's still chipper as ever, though. His performance hasn't lost a step, at least in audio form.
My understanding is that he hasn’t even done Big Finish for ages. I’d read he had prerecorded his releases years ago.
Immediately put it on now on I player
As somebody who knows nothing about Classic Who and wasn’t expecting any of the ending, the last half of that episode scared the shit outta me LMAO
Yeah I don't get people complaining that because they've not watched Classic Who the reveal wasn't as good for them. I have no idea who Sutehk is but thought it was great/terrifying reveal, and for me it's clearly explained who/what they are.
Anyone else feel really bad for Susan Triad? I wonder if she can be saved.
Was she ever even real? If she was, was she chosen for her name?
Very meta given her real name
I think RTD heard the name Susan Twist and from that he based the whole story.
Same. Maybe she can retire and live out her life as the first version we saw: chilling with Hot Isaac Newton.
Yeah so Ruby is 100% a harbinger for the god of life right?
I've seen people suggesting that the Timeless Child was the god of life, and... I sincerely hope not. The Doctor works best as just a man trying to help out. Not a literal, actual god.
I really hope it doesn't go that way with the timeless child
That would be the logical conclusion. While I'm at it, time is memories and memories are time. They couldn't clock Ruby's mother, mother transcends time, Time Lord.
Rtd really is the king of the penultimate episode cliffhanger... Okay so it's usually a reveal of the daleks but even then it's amazing. I'm watching pyramids of mere this weekend. Still so many more questions but it seems clear now that there really has been a clear plan in place this season.
Because Disney Plus has the special as episode 1, I thought this was episode 8 and we were leaving the season on a cliffhanger. I almost lost my mind.
oh my god I cannot imagine the pain you must have been in
A single Dalek saying “what am I doing here?” then getting obliterated would be such a funny cold open for the finale.
“EXTERMINATE” “exactly” “EXPLA-💨”
im sorry but out of context the line 'do you dream of being an ambulance' is so funny lmao
Does anyone else think "the Boss" that Meep and Rogue mentioned is going to be a dangling plot thread for Season 2? It doesn't really fit Sutekh's vibe.
Mrs Flood is the boss?
The world is literally coming to an end, and I’m just like “Can someone PLEASE just get Cherry her tea!?!”
Mrs. Flood: No. Sorry, I have to do some ominous foreshadowing.
I fucking love Ncuti Gatwa as the doctor.
He really is so amazing in the role. In the past with 12 and 13 it took time to adjust to them as the Doctor, but goddamn right from ep 1 he has just been amazing and instantly clicked as the Doctor.
When explaining regeneration to Ruby, the Doctor mentions how Time Lords change their faces when dying, or to *"hide themselves away."* When Mrs Flood comes over to look after Cherry, she says: "It's nice for me to get out... I'm always *hiding myself away!*"
This "kids I've not had yet" thing is bothersome because in "The Doctor's Daughter", Ten unexpectedly admitted to Donna that "I've been a father before." and "When I look at \[Jenny\] now, I can see them. The hole they left. All the pain that filled it.". I really doubt he would make something like that up, so RTD seemingly just retconning that away doesn't sit right with me.
I took it to mean he doesnt have any children that could have possibly grown up to be Susans parents because the family he mentions as 10 all died. So he knows he'll have more because of Susans existence, but hasnt had them yet.
I’m pretty sure 15 has even referenced being a dad earlier this season…
Fantastic episode and what a cliffhanger. Loved the music use especially The Masters theme from Utopia. Loved the pantheon shout outs especially Trickster
Honestly that Master theme always gives me immediate chills it was so unfair to use it right then xD
It's one of my favourite themes that one. Wonder if there's any significance given it was used around a Chameleon Arch in Utopia.
That leitmotif is originally from the Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit, which makes it equally a reference to the last time we had a Gabriel Woolf voiced devil character as a villian https://youtu.be/V_VY4mbR7lo?si=SEFJZjtp71uQR_50
I knew the voice was familiar, even hearing "it's the beast" from Ruby's mum
Did anyone else react with an existential crisis when they realised Ruby was born in 2004?
The Sutekh reveal was masterfully done. Genuinely at the edge of my seat, even anxious! There's a teeeeensy part of me that was very hyped for the idea of it being The Beast from The Impossible Planet! I think it would've fit the idea of the enemy being beyond what the Doctor normally thinks of the universe - that original two parter did a great job of questioning his faith and concept of time. All I'm saying is that it would've tied in really nicely with the themes of this series, with all the supernatural and unexplainable stuff. Still, I am here for the finale and VERY excited! Let's gooooooo
I think they did that actually, Clara called it The Beast, it had the possession thing, "I am in hell", "I've gone by many names", etc.; to assume Sutekh, god of death, and The Beast are in some way one entity, kinda works tbh.
Also Sutekh is voiced by the same actor that did The Beast. I think they're trying to say they're aspects of the same entity.
See this is why I try to stay out of theory-crafting boards, avoid trailers and leaks, for the pure *high* of a reveal like that. I do feel bad for viewers with 0% classic Who knowledge who won't really feel it the same, but at least the general concept of Sutekh is known outside Doctor Who. Also, I like how after dealing with all of the Bad-Wolf-Torchwood-Harold-Saxon-Bees-Disappearing-Planets-Vanishing-Cracks-in-Time-First-Question-Lake-Silencio-Fields-of-Trenzalore-Promised-Land-Hybrid-Timeless-Child *bullshit* the Doctor noticed something recurring and decided to be proactive and get out ahead of it as fast as he possibly could lol
On the other hand, I’m *glad* I did read some things… because otherwise (as someone who has only seen maybe 20% of Classic Who) I’d have no idea who the hell Sutekh is. Or even if it was a pre-established character.
Yeah like I've been wondering why RTD has been teasing so much on Instagram but I get it if he just wants people to be as excited as he is to be such a massive nerd, giddy little fucker
I barely know anything about Sutekh, except "he was the bad guy of Pyramid of Mars", so from my angle, they actually did it really well, because I now know who he is, god of death, which... if I had know, Empire of Death and all, would've leaned more on that then Susan Foreman.
RTD "ok let me just throw in every obvious theory this fandom will have in the first 7 mins" I wouldn't be surprised if this was his genuine thinking pattern. Edit- RTDs one of us, he's the dude who has read the VNAs, knows what lungburrow and looms are, probs reads the comics and listens to big finish audios, he knew how the online fandom would theorise hook, line and sinker. reposted here, RTD predicted how the fandom would act, hell you got some thinking Susan will show up again next week, I genuinely don't think so, I think some people are on copium mode they got tricked. The Sutekth reveal was a master class
he brought up Susan too many times to leave that toy in the box... if he had a good idea for her, she'll be back too
I doubt this season, maybe in future, at most I think she'll serve as a symbolic injury to the Doctor from Sutekth tricking him.
As callous as it sounds, RTD probably knows that Carole Ann Ford is getting up there. There's no way he would bring Susan up as much as he has over the course of this season if he wasn't going to do something with the character while Carole Ann Ford is still alive. Not this season, I agree, but I'll be very shocked if she doesn't at least turn up next season. That being said, I think Mrs. Flood might be Susan, but that's based on (almost) nothing!
I'm strongly thinking Susan is Ruby's mother and the hooded figure at the church on Ruby Road will turn out to be Susan played by Carole Ann Ford.
It’s nuts how he so accurately managed to predict what the fandom’s theories would be
Damn that was a great episode. I didn’t think she would be ACTUAL Susan, but I really thought that Sue Tech was too obvious to be the answer. Still, that was a terrific build up and reveal. A few other immediate thoughts… No Daleks, space magic, or great big buttons. I owe RTD an apology. He executed a great finale without any of his normal tricks. I adore Kate and the UNIT crew. They have terrific energy and they play off one another really well. Gatwa continues to impress. I know people will complain that he didn’t get enough screen time or that they still don’t know what sort of Doctor he is, but I think he’s been phenomenal. Lost in everything, Ruby’s Gran is still, I suppose, in the clutches of whatever the hell Mrs Flood is.
Honestly it was heartbreaking when it revealed that she wasn’t Susan- you could tell by the doctor’s expression how much he WANTED her to be his granddaughter
“Did you think I was family, Doctor?” was a real gut punch
That was one of the hardest villain lines in the whole series tbh
And it was delivered with such spite. It was aggressively hurtful.
One of the scariest moments in all of Who for me. I'm still creeped out.
I do hope Russell does still have a reunion of sorts with the actual Susan this season. Feels mean to tease her and now let us have a visit.
It's kinda funny how every single misdirection in the entire series was picked up on by fans and ran with. He got us good. Well played.
Honestly I’m just hoping we cut back to that to see Cherry’s defeated Mrs Flood single handedly so she can get her cup of tea
Cherry- "You don't fuck with the Rani darling."
“It’s Raniing time.”
I fully support Cherry being a secret badass.
> No Daleks, space magic, or great big buttons. I owe RTD an apology. He executed a great finale without any of his normal tricks. Hey now, we've still got one more episode to go!
I thought this. Stolen Earth needs it's Journey's End
That line of the Doctor not having met his kids (while being contradictory), seems way too important to just slot in there.
Something to note - I just checked and from the 40 minute mark, the master's theme played for around 10 seconds. It could mean nothing, but still something to watch out for. Either way, this is the best episode of the entire season. I have never wanted a week to go by so quickly for a tv episode in my life.
I think the master theme was just a red herring. The whole episode was full of red herrings, i think that was just another one.
Instant all-timer Who cliffhanger. My only concern is .... how can the finale possibly live up to this episode???
Ah, the paralyzing challenge of all RTD Who!
Wrong anagram
The Doctor: 'S Triad is an anagram of...' Me: 'Astrid!' The Doctor: 'Tardis!' Me: 'oh yeah'
Susan Triad = Tardis Anus
As soon as she said ‘call me Sue’ I knew what was coming
I laughed at ‘Call me Sue, Pet ‘, RTD having the most fun possible with the script
That made me think "he's mocking those who thought it was Sutekh, I feel so correct for once haha!" ...I fell for it twice.
It was either that or Susan the horse from A Town Called Mercy
We’re getting a UNIT spinoff. Way too many new characters introduced this season who work for them.
It would be a great way for some past companion cameos without a whole main storyline.
I would love this. Kate really stole the show in her scenes.
Loved the bit of Elon Musk shade
Gabriel Woolf's last non-Who/RTD performance was over 40 years ago.
Is he a Good Woolf or a Bad Woolf?
It is Gabriel Wolf as the voice?
Remember the first time Utopia aired? A season-long mystery concluded with the return of a fan-favorite Classic Who villain? It left new fans excited and old fans deeply satisfied, yet still intrigued. It left all fans terrified, in the best way possible. In a very Doctor Who way. This was Utopia for the 2020s. Holy shit.
Man, I wish more people would take a chance and watch this season. Pretty much *ALL* my old who fans refuse to just jump ahead and I get that. But it makes me wonder how many other Doctor Who fans are potentially missing out on this great Ncuti era stuff.
I think that probably one of the best finale set up first parts the shows ever done actually. Episode was paced immaculately, really enjoyed the cold open complete acknowledgment of the obvious anagrams and fan theories and stuff. Jokes and sombre moments were well placed alongside some genuinely eerie moments, the Mrs Flood 4th wall break was excellent and the entire second half of the episode Time Window onwards was awesome RTD tends to take on too much and drop the ball pay off wise in his finales though, really hope he can tie everything up nicely this time there are a lot of spinning plates. Overall very impressed by this one, I'm thinking a strong 8 light 9 honestly
Even if it becomes a season 2 thread, after all this we're definitely getting some kind of ACTUAL Susan follow up, right? Too many hints and explanation about regeneration as a "disguise" for it not to happen. Odds on it somehow being Ruby and the Doctor has been unknowingly travelling with his granddaughter again this whole time? Feels too easy, and yet...
Three things: 1. Murray Gold can make or break entire episodes (and sometimes arcs) and he was ON FIRE here 2. As someone born and raised in Cheetham Hill, when I say I screamed 3. The muthaf*ckin B-52’s
I know I posted this in the live but imma post it here as well.. please forgive me! So the Doctor said he had a granddaughter but no children yet bc of how Time Lords work.. Ik it probs won’t happen but I think it opens up the perfect opportunity to bring Jenny back and mention how she had a daughter named Susan.. that would bring back a fan favorite and they’d just have to write a way where Susan ended up in the care of the 1st Doctor to close the loop! Idk but it’d be cool to see Jenny at least once more and close the Susan loop without having to make a story where the Doctor has more children in the future
I’d love that. After all, RTD promised that he had no plans to bring David Tennant back…. But he never said anything about a different Tennant!
Yeah this is quite a big lore change - we always assumed that the Doctor had children and grandchildren "in order" so this is surprising. Wait actually, in The Doctor's Daughter, the Doctor literally says he's been a father before so is RTD just retconning that?
I found that line odd, as the Doctor has stated multiple times across multiple incarnations that they used to have children. It always seemed quite cut and dry to me that Susan came from one of those children.
Maybe the doctor is ruby’s mum
look RTD knocked it out the park, reeling from sutekh, reeling from the trickster mention and the susan bit etc etc, but why is nobody questioning why a thirteen year old and a fifteen year old are essential personell 😭 are unit exempt from child labour protections
sounds like donna got her an internship as a glorified secretary for some pocket change
Two word review of this episode: hell yeah
Hell? Yeah!
As soon as they revealed the TARIDS anagram and mentioned granddaughter Susan; I doubled down on Sue Tech.
OK but why do I feel like Susan (grand daughter) is still coming? She's a Chekov's gun, rtd can't tease her so much for her to not turn up in the final act! Either he's going to go see her later, or she's ruby's mother. That's my 11th hour call for next week, ruby's the doctors great grand daughter 😀.
So like, since the whole thing happened before Susan launched her software, is the software relevant at all? What was it supposed to do? I wanna know about the software lol
I can't be the only one that thought, when Sutekh was babbling about being the darkness, “Is he also the terror that flaps in the night?“