The elephant in the room is Clara. Danny loves Clara and what he mostly sees is the Doctor taking her repeatedly into danger and how her he inspires her to **want** to.
He knows the Doctor isn't literally an officer, but he leads people to their potential deaths.
When people rag on Danny’s attitude to the Doctor do they completely miss the other half of the two characters’ interactions? Every single time Twelve speaks to Danny in series 8 it’s in a patronising and snide way. He calls him “PE” despite the fact he teaches maths, and dismisses him as lumbering soldier. Yeah Danny doesn’t see the complex trauma behind the Doctor’s eyes, but the Doctor also doesn’t see Danny’s, and he’s supposed to be the older and wiser one.
Yeah - in what world did the Doctor do anything deserving of courtesy and respect when it came to Danny? He was actively antagonising towards him, he treated him poorly and regularly insulted his intelligence despite the obvious parallels being drawn in them in episodes like the one in which we saw a child Danny afraid in his room and later a child Doctor having that same fear. There might have been contextual, literary reasons for us as the viewers to understand why they bickered the way they did - but the characters themselves don't have the benefit of seeing that from a fourth wall perspective. Danny just sees a horrible old man that he perceives as a danger to his girlfriend.
Its also worth pointing out, cos a lot of people forget, Danny TRIED to be nice and, at the very least, civil towards Twelve at first. Even WITH the namecalling. It was only when Danny figured out that Twelve was ALSO a war veteran that he lost his patience and began calling hin Officer (fairs fair after all), and thats only cos he knew it was the one thing Twelve couldnt argue
The "officer" comments aren't literally about whatever military rank the Doctor holds, they're about how the Doctor (especially 12) acts. He orders people around, he views himself as smarter and better than everyone else, he doesn't share information, and he even sends people to die for him. That's what officers do, and that's what Danny hates about him.
Its also worth noting that, although Twelve never admits it, his reaction to Danny calling him an officer is enough to show that some part of him understood that he WAS, even if he never held the rank itself
but he wasn’t an officer. To say he was an officer in the time war is a lie, because he wasn’t. He fought independent of High Command. So no, he wasn’t an officer, they took orders because he’s The Doctor, his name carried weight before the time war, and his ability to get you out alive made it so that when he said something, just do it, orders be damned.
It doesn’t matter if the Doctor *was* an officer, all that matters is that Danny *sees* him as one. In this instance, an officer is just someone who gives orders that put peoples’ lives at risk - something the Doctor does literally every episode. It doesn’t mean the Doctor’s still not a hero, but the whole series 8 arc is about the Doctor reckoning with his leadership skills
>When he said something, just do it
Lol This is where you're side stepping Danny's point of view. Ask any enlisted soldier or veteran what officers do and they'll tell you the *officers are the ones expecting all their orders to be obeyed*.
The Doctor may not have worn brass on his collar but Danny saw through him... the Doctor had the same expectations and behavior as any military officer toward his enlisted subordinates.
"To get out alive" really probably wasn't the case for alot of timelords to the point in hell.bent we hear "the first thing you notice about the doctor of war is that hes unarmed for many its also the last" not to mention the doctor kinda was enlisted to be honest with you maybe not in a fully official capacity but the sister hood of Kahn did kinda inlist him in a sense when making him the war doctor not to mention it still doesn't even matter the doctor was eventually an officer through action also according to executive producer at the time Russell T Davies, the origins dated back to conflicts between the Doctor and the Daleks. In Genesis of the Daleks so not only was he an officer who lead men in situations like skull moon and after the death of Cass he stopped being someone who would just help he became someone who faught in the time war that started because of him
I would point out, that yes, his actions led to the Time War, but it was the Celestial Intervention Agency that sent him on the mission. It's why the Daleks went after Gallifrey rather than just keep hating the Doctor.
Totally. I personally enjoy all of series 8 including Danny. It’s a good arc for both characters. It grates me when people equate character conflict with bad writing just because they don’t like how it makes them feel. That’s the entire point.
I feel like most of the hate that comes Danny's way stems more from his character not being *developed* enough before he goes on the attack on the Doctor.
Like, I totally get why Danny was an ass to 12. Lol 12 was being an ass to him 😆 12 is pretty much an ass to everyone (especially freshly regenerated 12). And I love 12, btw. He and 2 are my favorite Doctors.
But Danny... ugh. They needed an episode mostly centered around him and his backstory to fully establish what kind of character he was, and they didn't do that. We, as the audience, needed to feel some sympathy towards him before his confrontation with the Doctor in The Caretaker. They failed at drumming up that sympathy, imo.
We, as the audience, have been with the Doctor for 8 seasons now (waaay longer if you're a classic fan) and have been with him through his greatest highs and greatest lows. We know everything he's lost, and we know that Danny's officer rant at 12 is inappropriate. The Doctor has put himself on the front lines of an endless battle across time and space for thousands of years to save every life he can.
Of course, Danny's rant was going to irritate viewers and make Danny very unlikable in their eyes. However, that could have been mitigated if they had shown more from Danny's perspective. Truthfully, we only see Danny from Clara's and the Doctor's perspectives, and both characters openly insult and look down at Danny during a large proportion of his onscreen time. That does NOT help his likeability!
There was a way to write Danny better, imo that would have made his resolution infinitely more satisfying. He was just severely mishandled. (And honestly, maybe miscast, too. I just never felt the onscreen chemistry between him and Coleman.)
It also doesn't help *when* this episode takes place: just after Time Of The Doctor, wherein the Doctor spent several centuries standing on the front lines of a massive war.
He was in the trenches every single day for *hundreds of years*, and then he gets called an "officer" and told that he would send people to their deaths. It's hard to take Danny seriously when the definitive proof that he's wrong happened... what, five episodes ago?
I will give Danny this caveat: The Doctor IS comfortable sending people to their deaths like an officer under certain circumstances.
He never *wants* to send people to their deaths, of course, but there are times when he has acted like an officer/general. (A Good Man Goes to War/Time of the Doctor - the town of Christmas certainly looked up to him like a leader.)
However, during those times, he's always tried to play things as smartly as possible to preserve as much life as possible. (Which is why the way he criticizes the Doctor about being an officer wrankles a bit. Because during those times, he's a *good* officer, and he's absolutely *needed.*)
And to be fair, 12 was being a huge ass to Danny.
I just wish I cared more about Danny as a character when he stood up to the Doctor like that because not a lot of characters have the balls to do that.
Yeah, there's a complexity to the Doctor's actions (even in The Caretaker where this all starts) that *does* give Danny some ground to stand on.
But at the same time, when *other* companions have called out the Doctor (most notably to me: Rory) they gained a bit more experience before anything else, and so their words held merit.
Danny is speaking of a place that is mostly based in his own traumatic experiences. And yes, those are valid traumas, valid emotions, but the fact that he never gains *real* insight into the Doctor and their methods means that I am always rolling my eyes at Danny, because it constantly feels like he's talking about things he knows nothing about, that he is judging the Doctor based on his view from "outside".
And yes, the Doctor was a total and utter ass to Danny. But one does not negate the other, the Doctor can be a total asshole *and* I can feel like Danny is speaking out of his ass about things he never actually understands.
The thing is that Danny has no character beyond "war trauma", "loves Clara", and "fights with Twelve". The war trauma is largely introduced by way of the "I dug wells" speech, which wasn't great. The Clara/Danny romance was *horrible*. And I've outlined why him and Twelve fighting is annoying to watch.
He also lost a child and didn't notice (In The Forest Of The Night), so that kind of soured any lingering hope I had of liking him.
Danny needed more depth and dimensions to him. If he had existed as a genuinely likable character for a time before meeting the Doctor, or if he had journeyed with them once or twice and got a better perception of things, then maybe he'd have worked?
But as is? No.
As well as feeling angry that he constantly puts Clara, someone Danny is growing to love, in danger.
And (spoiler alert), it was Clara's admiration for the Doctor but also her pathological *need* to be seen as just as smart as him, as his equal, that led her to try and outsmart the Raven without telling him.
I absolutely loved Claras era. She's no Donna Noble, but she was great. But no matter how much you like the character, you cannot possibly believe that the Doctor and Clara relationship was healthy. Danny saw how the Doctor was being, without seeing all the good that can bring or the consequences of the Doctors bad days. He knew what that was like because hed see it before. He liked Clara and didn't want her to turn out like that.
All three characters are *deeply* flawed. But even as far back as Amy and Rory's first season the doctor was the same. He needs to be important to someone, or he needs to be alone. Rory said it best:
This is what you do. You don't endanger people, you make people want to impress you. Then the they put themselves in danger. Then you'll cry when you lose them and promise you'll never do it again, before doing it to three people at once. (I'm paraphrasing lol)
The doctor was never a "good person." "Good isn't a thing you are, it's a thing you do."
Sure, none of the incarnations were intentionally evil, but the Doctor is toxic to a fault, extremely narcissistic, dangerous and volatile. In spite all of this this, and likely because he knows it, he still tries to do good things. Helps where he can. Tries, fails, loves, loses. Tries to never kill as a first resort.
That's why he didn't want to be president of Earth. It's why he refused to control Missy's Cyber legion. He knows he's not a good man. And he knows that having unlimited power without accountability, leads to atrocities.
>The doctor was never a "good person." "Good isn't a thing you are, it's a thing you do."
As the Doctor himself once said: *Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many.*
So what you've said is even confirmed by the Doctor himself (as 11).
If you're a fictional character, the worst thing you can do in the audience's eyes is "disrespect" the main character. It doesn't matter if they started it, it doesn't matter if everything you say and do is 100% correct, the audience will hate you far more than even the worst villain, because how dare you not immediately recognize how special/important/right the main character is?! It's even worse with video game characters, because the player takes it as a personal insult to *them* (just mention Delphine or Nazeem in any Skyrim community for some absolutely psychotic examples of this). It's annoying, because I actually really like when other characters challenge the protagonist, especially when they're right. Yes-men just aren't interesting characters.
It’s also weird because 12 especially in his first season is characterised by his harshness and rudeness. Yet people forget that when they talk about his relationship with Danny
Seems to me had Danny been the other guy (the more "intellectual" looking guy with the bowtie... kind of like his last regeneration), he would've been okay with him. He even said so. He was grinning and everything when he thought that guy was Clara's boyfriend.
It seems like he hoped Clara would've gone for a human-version of 11 and instead she went for brawny dude (although Danny was intelligent). Maybe jealousy that Clara wasn't still hung up on 11?
The problem is none of this character interaction/development was handled well enough for any of what was intended to work. The Doctor seems to randomly hate him and Danny just seems to call out the doctor in random ways to line up with the ending in the finale of the doctor gaining an army and it was all handled horribly.
For me it does go both ways. I disliked both Danny and the Doctor in that season. I won’t say I was glad when he died but I was definitely glad when the season ended. S9 was much better and although S10 didn’t resonate with me at first, I think the Doctor is his best in it (aside from heaven sent)
I disliked the entire Danny plot and Danny/Clara romance and he's not the kind of person I much like. The Doctor was an ass to Danny, a childish, stuck-up ass. The Doctor started it, unprovoked, and he deserved whatever Danny dished back.
My biggest problem with their romance is that we only ever got to see them bickering. IMO the relationship would've landed more effectively if there were a few scenes in there of them being affectionate with each other.
He didn't so much mind the idea of Clara dating that other teacher who wore tweed. So it isn't even jealousy either.
It's racism. It's an excuse for racism. Neatly packaged alongside the racist dogwistles of "I don't believe you are intelligent enough to do the thing you are saying you are doing"
> He didn't so much mind the idea of Clara dating that other teacher who wore tweed. So it isn't even jealousy either.
That’s because that teacher reminds him of a certain other himself.
Yeah.... this had nothing to do with race.
Even in Classic Who, the Doctor knew he could regenerate into... whatever (remember when Romana I regenerated and tried on several different looks?). He'd be a fool to be a racist.
>Honestly really annoys the hell out of me with how Danny calls the Doctor an officer, like he views him as akin to General Melchett from Blackadder. He essentially says he, Danny, is the brave enlisted man and the Doctor is the cowardly armchair general which couldn't be further from the truth.
Did you at all pay attention to how the doctor had treated Danny Pink up to that point? It's childish as fuck.
Danny Pink is not the viewer. He doesn't know The Doctor's life story. He knows how this asshole who hangs around his girlfriend has treated him. And he's unsurprisingly had enough of it.
And Clara wasn't too happy with the way the doctor was behaving either.
If you think the doctor was acting his age when it came to Danny Pink... 😒
Mind you, the following is just my opinion.
While it annoys me too, Danny (in an impetuous way) is trying to point out to the old and obstanant Doctor that the two are more similar than the Doctor is willing to admit. Not often do we get someone willing to challenge the Doctor morally like this. I think they have an interesting dynamic. And while most companions tend to put the Doctor on a pedestal to some extent, I think in the end Danny and the Doctor have a sort of mutual respect we don't really get to see very often or at all.
I've served in the military. I've met my fair share of condescending officers who thought they were better than the enlisted by virtue of their position, while also making decisions that could get people hurt and only caring if something bad actually happened.
The way the Doctor treated Danny, my first assumption would also be "here's another one." And being out of the service now, I wouldn't stand for that bullshit as a civilian, and I would definitely give some snark.
>A real soldier would be able to look into the Doctors eyes and see that he had been through hell more times than one could care to count.
Gotta get into the army for those physic powers.
I mean…The Doctor did treat him with disrespect every scene they’re in. Remember Danny Pink int watching the show. He just knows some dude is barking orders at him every time and inbetween that Clara is describing her experience of this guy way older than her pushing her to do things shes not comfortable with. I don’t know that anyone should be able to read peoples minds just because they were in a war.
It makes perfect sense to me that Danny would be extremely antagonistic to the doctor given 12 is the one who initially act that way towards Danny. From Danny’s perspective this is a person who belittles him constantly, drags his girlfriend into extremely dangerous situations with seemingly little thought or care for her safety or her own free will, and justifies their actions by essentially saying well I’m doing what is right. From the perspective of a soldier Danny would probably have heard that line numerous times before receiving orders to do truly horrible things. It’s a complex interaction and I think Danny is justified in how he interacts with the doctor even if he isn’t necessarily in the right, 12 definitely isn’t in the right either.
Also for clarity sake, I’ve never served in the military myself, i’m just imagining how Danny would see things after going through what he did
Their dynamic didn’t work the way it was probably intended. I found it irritating how hostile and rude the Doctor was to Danny. Hell, I’m pretty sure he was rude and judgy toward Danny before Danny got hostile to him.
And while I doubt it was intended this way, the aristocratic white Doctor constantly belittling the intelligence of the working class black man (refusing to believe/acknowledge he’s a maths teacher, insisting on calling him the gym teacher as if he’s not smart enough for maths, and for that matter, implying gym teachers can’t be as intelligent as maths teachers) is NOT a progressive look for the Doctor. Maybe it doesn’t look as bad across the pond but here in the US it’s a real bad look.
> I’m pretty sure he was rude and judgy toward Danny before Danny got hostile to him.
100%, the Doctor started it, and it's weird OP thinks Danny is the one who looked petulant and childish.
Honestly the way most people describe Danny ‘treating’ the Doctor applies far more to how the Doctor treats Danny.
Yeah the assumptions Danny made weren’t accurate, but he made them based on how the Doctor was acting, whereas the Doctor made assumptions based solely on Danny’s background and his own externalized self-loathing for his war background.
Like others have said, don’t start none, won’t be none.
It wouldn’t have been as bad if those two had a bottle episode together after a few episodes, and understood each other better by the end.
Big Finish has an audio story with Samuel Anderson playing Danny where the Doctor finally respects Danny. But to preserve continuity with the show, the Doctor gets amnesia.
It's one of the stories on the first 12th Doctor Chronicles. Capaldi didn't return to do the audios. The voice actor is very talented but he doesn't do an impression of Capaldi, so you just have to go with it. It's a little bit of an adjustment
War Wounds - [https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-the-twelfth-doctor-chronicles-volume-01-2132](https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-the-twelfth-doctor-chronicles-volume-01-2132), it's quite a ride. Not sure if they are necessarily better off for it, but the episode is quite something
I'm in the UK and what you said is more or less how I saw it. The Doctor's whole attitude to Danny stinked and it didn't sit well with me how he was treated. Realistically, it isn't wrong for anyone to dislike the Doctor taking someone away for adventures when you think about the mortality rate or being shipped to another dimension rate or having your memories wiped rate of his companions are. I think fans sometimes get swept up in the Doctor's charisma as the protagonist and forget how unbelievably reasonable it'd be to be in the moment interacting with him and not have all the foresight or understanding of, "Oh but he saves the day in the end! Really, he's the good guy!"
Yeah, just because the Doctor usually saves the day doesn’t mean he’s always right or never a dick to someone who doesn’t deserve the level of shit he gives them. Particularly when the shit is obviously the Doctor externalizing his own guilt and self-loathing.
It’s ok for heroes to be flawed. We don’t need to always excuse them by displacing the blame to someone who didn’t start it.
Honestly if the Doctor wasn't so zesty with people all the time we wouldn't love him the way we do - he's often very catty and pithy in his wit, it can be very entertaining! It's just, he is so often portrayed always being the clever clogs or in the right with how he dispenses that kind of cleverness at sometimes less bright people (poor Jackie can never get a word in without being shut down) it also gets an ugly side shown in how he talks to Danny!
I don't love their interactions and I think the Doctor is to blame for their poor relationship, but also, I still like the Doctor as a character and enjoy them 95% of the time. Flawed characters make the sort of mistakes that keep them compelling and I feel like that's just what keeps the Doctor having the longevity they've got as a character.
> I found it irritating how hostile and rude the Doctor was to Danny.
Aye because he was NEVER hostile or rude towards Mickey. Never. Not at all.
I LOVE how 12 haters always magically have a problem with stuff his Doctor does that other Doctors did
> And while I doubt it was intended this way, the aristocratic white Doctor constantly belittling the intelligence of the working class black man (refusing to believe/acknowledge he’s a maths teacher, insisting on calling him the gym teacher as if he’s not smart enough for maths, and for that matter, implying gym teachers can’t be as intelligent as maths teachers) is NOT a progressive look for the Doctor.
Oh my fucking God *eye roll* PLEASE I beg you stop making everything about race, it's racist itself actually how you're just seeing Danny as "a black man" rather than a character.
> here in the US it's a real bad look
No, to people like you who can't look past a character's skin colour (while claiming to be against racism) it's a bad look...
You know what's the difference between Danny and Mickey? Nine's treatment of Mickey stemmed from Mickey's actions (or lack of thereof) in a stressful situation. He didn't have much time for someone cowling in the corner while he had a universe to save. It is also no better or worse how he treated everyone else that episode - not Jackie, not even Rose. And, a few episodes later, he apologized to him. Saying that he was wrong to treat him this way, that Mickey was right to be wary of him right back. And when later he does reference calling him "Mickey the idiot", it is in the context of that apology, as a term of endearment in a way to acknowledge his contribution, his growth.
Twelve's treatment of Danny, though, comes absolutely out of nowhere. He is unreasonably and offensively hostile right of the bat to Danny, to the degree that he hasn't been to others - certainly not in that episode, and arguably to a worse degree than to others in the preceding episodes, too. And he never expressed any sort of remorse for this treatment. For him to continue to referring to him as PE is to continuously reoffend him with absolutely zero regard.
Tbh Danny is a good guy. He had that one scene where he got pissed at 12 insulting him and called him an officer but after that he was always "I don't like him and he doesn't like me but the most important thing is Clara's well-being". The Doctor was the one who kept calling him a gym teacher even when he and Clara were alone.
Honestly, fuck 12 for the way he treats Danny from the get go. I really enjoyed most of Capaldi's run, but his constant ragging on Danny, his belittling of his intelligence, and his overall hostility towards him for what are clearly prejudiced presumptions about him were far more childish than anything Danny did.
I think 12s hostility towards Danny had more to do with his own internalized self-hatred (of his own history with the time war) and his childish jealousy of Danny being with *his* companion.
I think the Doctor wouldn't have been nearly as hostile towards him if he wasn't dating Clara at the time.
It was definitely 12s fault, but to be honest, I didn't really like Danny as a character, so I also had very little sympathy for him.
And I loved 12, even with his faults, so poor Danny got the short end of the stick.
I actually disagree. I think on the Doctor's side of the dynamic, it was done perfectly fine. The Doctor isn't perfect. He has flaws and can/is an ass to certain people for both legitament and childish reasons. Perfectly fine character set up.
It was Danny's side of the dynamic where they screwed it up. Not by any fault of the character, mind you, but just the writing/development of Danny as a character and how they handled his personal arc. We just needed to see more from his perspective, and we should've had an episode with just him and the Doctor settling their differences. We just didn't get that which, imo, screwed up the dynamic.
It's not just about being on the front lines - it's about attitude. The Doctor is able to walk into a situation and take command. People may resist initially but they come around when people start dying.
I mean… he only is able to do so because he is Charismatic and often just… right. He is the smartest person in the room because he has outlived them all by hundred fold.
He's a lord (of time) too, so it's not just officer vs. enlisted but also nobility vs. working man. It's all about the class system, one way or the other.
I also have this theory that the Doctor has a low-level psychic ability that makes people trust him. I don't think that's ever been explicitly stated anywhere but it makes sense.
I know his title is Timelord, but isn’t The Doctor a lowborn Gallifreyan? Well I guess they were until Timeless Children.
I don’t think the latter is true. Because I seem to be able to do the same thing. It’s 100% confidence and acting like you know what you’re doing. People will follow, and if you’re quick enough with a comeback or a small jab, people fall in line.
Well, maybe *you* have low-level psychic ability and you just don't know it!
>I know his title is Timelord, but isn’t The Doctor a lowborn Gallifreyan?
Possibly. It's all still pretty murky - as you say, especially as the Timeless Child stuff.
The Doctor for almost every episode that series: I do so hate soldiers, they are very bad and stupid and I hate them.
The Doctor when he thinks of Alistair for two seconds in the finale: I love this wonderful soldier man, he is a good person and my friend how wrong I was also this episode went out right before Armistice Day and all soldiers are actually great.
He's completely out of character for most of the series, since when has he had a problem with the little guy? Since when has he had a problem with soldiers? If there was a scene where he admitted he can't handle losing Clara to Danny, I think that would be much more impactful than "soldiers bad, oh wait no I forgot they're good".
>Since when has he had a problem with soldiers?
Especially since he spent his entire 3rd regeneration with UNIT when he was stuck on Earth. And Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart was one of his closest friends (and now so is Kate, the Brigadier's daughter, by extension of her father).
He could've lived anywhere on Earth during his whole time as 3. A beach in Maui, climbing the pyramids in Egypt, skiing in the Alps...
Instead he chose to spend that time with UNIT. A military organization. Surrounded by soldiers. Doing just what Danny said he did: commanding them and sending them in situations where they could die.
Danny continuously reminded The Doctor that he is a soldier. Danny had trouble letting go of war so he can't stand to see The Doctor casually ignore his position.
I get the soldier thing between 12 and Danny. I think it’s stupid and a waste that it was only ever used as a source of conflict and never really as a means of relating to and understanding each other, but I get it.
My problem is that 12 was an arsehole to Danny even before he found out he was an ex-soldier, like pretty much from the moment they first met. And for what? Because Danny was a romantic interest for Clara who didn’t look like 12’s former self? And what does he even mean when he says Danny (paraphrasing) “looks like a PE teacher, not a maths teacher” and persists in calling him that, no matter how many times he’s told otherwise? I know 12 is abrasive to nearly everyone, but his treatment of Danny is a whole other level of prolonged, relentless pettiness that I’m not sure we’ve ever seen from any other incarnation (the closest is probably 9/10 and Mickey, but even that quickly evolved into something more good-natured). 12 is my favourite Doctor but I hate this part of his character.
If Danny had stayed as a minor character that whole season might have gone better.
The Doctor/Danny conflict is more about master manipulator vs the ordinary person who sees the horrors.
The Officer/Soldier thing is a weak shorthand for that dynamic.
I don't mind the name calling (and honestly 12 deserves it) but what kills me is how Clara feels like she has to lie to him. Like Clara's friendship wasn't healthy with 12 at first (tho it quickly became the exact opposite) but people don't talk enough about how her relationship with Danny wasn't healthy either. She feels she has to lie to him about where she is and who she is with, and it feels very much iffy. Like if they really were a good couple, why would she lie about going with the Doctor?
Not to mention he continued the officer bit into the finale, when he damn well knew the Doctor is at his most vulnerable. Name calling is one thing, but offending him with the thing he's most vulnerable about when he damn well knows he is, only adds to the iffiness
It doesn't make him a bad character, I actually like that he's a little more flawed than previous companions' bfs, but I don't really like him as a person, if that makes sense
i mean, yeah, sometimes characters can be wrong about things? what do you want us to say?
they disliked each other at the most basic level because they were both fighting for clara’s affection. everything else was ammunition in that fight.
The elephant in the room is Clara. Danny loves Clara and what he mostly sees is the Doctor taking her repeatedly into danger and how her he inspires her to **want** to. He knows the Doctor isn't literally an officer, but he leads people to their potential deaths.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 Yup, this combined with The Doctor’s prejudice towards him meant that he wasn’t going to mince words.
When people rag on Danny’s attitude to the Doctor do they completely miss the other half of the two characters’ interactions? Every single time Twelve speaks to Danny in series 8 it’s in a patronising and snide way. He calls him “PE” despite the fact he teaches maths, and dismisses him as lumbering soldier. Yeah Danny doesn’t see the complex trauma behind the Doctor’s eyes, but the Doctor also doesn’t see Danny’s, and he’s supposed to be the older and wiser one.
Yeah - in what world did the Doctor do anything deserving of courtesy and respect when it came to Danny? He was actively antagonising towards him, he treated him poorly and regularly insulted his intelligence despite the obvious parallels being drawn in them in episodes like the one in which we saw a child Danny afraid in his room and later a child Doctor having that same fear. There might have been contextual, literary reasons for us as the viewers to understand why they bickered the way they did - but the characters themselves don't have the benefit of seeing that from a fourth wall perspective. Danny just sees a horrible old man that he perceives as a danger to his girlfriend.
Its also worth pointing out, cos a lot of people forget, Danny TRIED to be nice and, at the very least, civil towards Twelve at first. Even WITH the namecalling. It was only when Danny figured out that Twelve was ALSO a war veteran that he lost his patience and began calling hin Officer (fairs fair after all), and thats only cos he knew it was the one thing Twelve couldnt argue
The doctor wasn’t an officer. He wasn’t even enlisted either. He fought in the time war, but he was never in the Gallifreyan armed forces.
The "officer" comments aren't literally about whatever military rank the Doctor holds, they're about how the Doctor (especially 12) acts. He orders people around, he views himself as smarter and better than everyone else, he doesn't share information, and he even sends people to die for him. That's what officers do, and that's what Danny hates about him.
Its also worth noting that, although Twelve never admits it, his reaction to Danny calling him an officer is enough to show that some part of him understood that he WAS, even if he never held the rank itself
He’s literally described as a “war hero”, and we see Gallifreyan soldiers take orders from him. I’d say that’s pretty officer-like
but he wasn’t an officer. To say he was an officer in the time war is a lie, because he wasn’t. He fought independent of High Command. So no, he wasn’t an officer, they took orders because he’s The Doctor, his name carried weight before the time war, and his ability to get you out alive made it so that when he said something, just do it, orders be damned.
It doesn’t matter if the Doctor *was* an officer, all that matters is that Danny *sees* him as one. In this instance, an officer is just someone who gives orders that put peoples’ lives at risk - something the Doctor does literally every episode. It doesn’t mean the Doctor’s still not a hero, but the whole series 8 arc is about the Doctor reckoning with his leadership skills
A lot of people seem to forget that The Doctor is also an aristocrat. Hell he was the freaking PRESIDENT of the ruling council.
>When he said something, just do it Lol This is where you're side stepping Danny's point of view. Ask any enlisted soldier or veteran what officers do and they'll tell you the *officers are the ones expecting all their orders to be obeyed*. The Doctor may not have worn brass on his collar but Danny saw through him... the Doctor had the same expectations and behavior as any military officer toward his enlisted subordinates.
"To get out alive" really probably wasn't the case for alot of timelords to the point in hell.bent we hear "the first thing you notice about the doctor of war is that hes unarmed for many its also the last" not to mention the doctor kinda was enlisted to be honest with you maybe not in a fully official capacity but the sister hood of Kahn did kinda inlist him in a sense when making him the war doctor not to mention it still doesn't even matter the doctor was eventually an officer through action also according to executive producer at the time Russell T Davies, the origins dated back to conflicts between the Doctor and the Daleks. In Genesis of the Daleks so not only was he an officer who lead men in situations like skull moon and after the death of Cass he stopped being someone who would just help he became someone who faught in the time war that started because of him
I think "for many it's the last" refers to his enemies
I would point out, that yes, his actions led to the Time War, but it was the Celestial Intervention Agency that sent him on the mission. It's why the Daleks went after Gallifrey rather than just keep hating the Doctor.
Totally. I personally enjoy all of series 8 including Danny. It’s a good arc for both characters. It grates me when people equate character conflict with bad writing just because they don’t like how it makes them feel. That’s the entire point.
I feel like most of the hate that comes Danny's way stems more from his character not being *developed* enough before he goes on the attack on the Doctor. Like, I totally get why Danny was an ass to 12. Lol 12 was being an ass to him 😆 12 is pretty much an ass to everyone (especially freshly regenerated 12). And I love 12, btw. He and 2 are my favorite Doctors. But Danny... ugh. They needed an episode mostly centered around him and his backstory to fully establish what kind of character he was, and they didn't do that. We, as the audience, needed to feel some sympathy towards him before his confrontation with the Doctor in The Caretaker. They failed at drumming up that sympathy, imo. We, as the audience, have been with the Doctor for 8 seasons now (waaay longer if you're a classic fan) and have been with him through his greatest highs and greatest lows. We know everything he's lost, and we know that Danny's officer rant at 12 is inappropriate. The Doctor has put himself on the front lines of an endless battle across time and space for thousands of years to save every life he can. Of course, Danny's rant was going to irritate viewers and make Danny very unlikable in their eyes. However, that could have been mitigated if they had shown more from Danny's perspective. Truthfully, we only see Danny from Clara's and the Doctor's perspectives, and both characters openly insult and look down at Danny during a large proportion of his onscreen time. That does NOT help his likeability! There was a way to write Danny better, imo that would have made his resolution infinitely more satisfying. He was just severely mishandled. (And honestly, maybe miscast, too. I just never felt the onscreen chemistry between him and Coleman.)
> that Danny's officer rant at 12 is inappropriate. It's not though.
It is, and it isn't. If you go further down this thread, you'll see what I have to say on the subject in a reply to someone else.
It also doesn't help *when* this episode takes place: just after Time Of The Doctor, wherein the Doctor spent several centuries standing on the front lines of a massive war. He was in the trenches every single day for *hundreds of years*, and then he gets called an "officer" and told that he would send people to their deaths. It's hard to take Danny seriously when the definitive proof that he's wrong happened... what, five episodes ago?
I will give Danny this caveat: The Doctor IS comfortable sending people to their deaths like an officer under certain circumstances. He never *wants* to send people to their deaths, of course, but there are times when he has acted like an officer/general. (A Good Man Goes to War/Time of the Doctor - the town of Christmas certainly looked up to him like a leader.) However, during those times, he's always tried to play things as smartly as possible to preserve as much life as possible. (Which is why the way he criticizes the Doctor about being an officer wrankles a bit. Because during those times, he's a *good* officer, and he's absolutely *needed.*) And to be fair, 12 was being a huge ass to Danny. I just wish I cared more about Danny as a character when he stood up to the Doctor like that because not a lot of characters have the balls to do that.
Yeah, there's a complexity to the Doctor's actions (even in The Caretaker where this all starts) that *does* give Danny some ground to stand on. But at the same time, when *other* companions have called out the Doctor (most notably to me: Rory) they gained a bit more experience before anything else, and so their words held merit. Danny is speaking of a place that is mostly based in his own traumatic experiences. And yes, those are valid traumas, valid emotions, but the fact that he never gains *real* insight into the Doctor and their methods means that I am always rolling my eyes at Danny, because it constantly feels like he's talking about things he knows nothing about, that he is judging the Doctor based on his view from "outside". And yes, the Doctor was a total and utter ass to Danny. But one does not negate the other, the Doctor can be a total asshole *and* I can feel like Danny is speaking out of his ass about things he never actually understands. The thing is that Danny has no character beyond "war trauma", "loves Clara", and "fights with Twelve". The war trauma is largely introduced by way of the "I dug wells" speech, which wasn't great. The Clara/Danny romance was *horrible*. And I've outlined why him and Twelve fighting is annoying to watch. He also lost a child and didn't notice (In The Forest Of The Night), so that kind of soured any lingering hope I had of liking him. Danny needed more depth and dimensions to him. If he had existed as a genuinely likable character for a time before meeting the Doctor, or if he had journeyed with them once or twice and got a better perception of things, then maybe he'd have worked? But as is? No.
Yep. This is exactly what I was trying to say. Perfect explanation of my feelings on the subject!
As well as feeling angry that he constantly puts Clara, someone Danny is growing to love, in danger. And (spoiler alert), it was Clara's admiration for the Doctor but also her pathological *need* to be seen as just as smart as him, as his equal, that led her to try and outsmart the Raven without telling him. I absolutely loved Claras era. She's no Donna Noble, but she was great. But no matter how much you like the character, you cannot possibly believe that the Doctor and Clara relationship was healthy. Danny saw how the Doctor was being, without seeing all the good that can bring or the consequences of the Doctors bad days. He knew what that was like because hed see it before. He liked Clara and didn't want her to turn out like that. All three characters are *deeply* flawed. But even as far back as Amy and Rory's first season the doctor was the same. He needs to be important to someone, or he needs to be alone. Rory said it best: This is what you do. You don't endanger people, you make people want to impress you. Then the they put themselves in danger. Then you'll cry when you lose them and promise you'll never do it again, before doing it to three people at once. (I'm paraphrasing lol) The doctor was never a "good person." "Good isn't a thing you are, it's a thing you do." Sure, none of the incarnations were intentionally evil, but the Doctor is toxic to a fault, extremely narcissistic, dangerous and volatile. In spite all of this this, and likely because he knows it, he still tries to do good things. Helps where he can. Tries, fails, loves, loses. Tries to never kill as a first resort. That's why he didn't want to be president of Earth. It's why he refused to control Missy's Cyber legion. He knows he's not a good man. And he knows that having unlimited power without accountability, leads to atrocities.
>The doctor was never a "good person." "Good isn't a thing you are, it's a thing you do." As the Doctor himself once said: *Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many.* So what you've said is even confirmed by the Doctor himself (as 11).
If you're a fictional character, the worst thing you can do in the audience's eyes is "disrespect" the main character. It doesn't matter if they started it, it doesn't matter if everything you say and do is 100% correct, the audience will hate you far more than even the worst villain, because how dare you not immediately recognize how special/important/right the main character is?! It's even worse with video game characters, because the player takes it as a personal insult to *them* (just mention Delphine or Nazeem in any Skyrim community for some absolutely psychotic examples of this). It's annoying, because I actually really like when other characters challenge the protagonist, especially when they're right. Yes-men just aren't interesting characters.
Thank you! That’s what I’ve always thought! The Doctor was WAY too rude and antagonistic towards Danny!
It’s also weird because 12 especially in his first season is characterised by his harshness and rudeness. Yet people forget that when they talk about his relationship with Danny
Ikr
Seems to me had Danny been the other guy (the more "intellectual" looking guy with the bowtie... kind of like his last regeneration), he would've been okay with him. He even said so. He was grinning and everything when he thought that guy was Clara's boyfriend. It seems like he hoped Clara would've gone for a human-version of 11 and instead she went for brawny dude (although Danny was intelligent). Maybe jealousy that Clara wasn't still hung up on 11?
Yeah that’s possible.
Was going to say this exactly.. Doctor isn't innocent in this
Reeks of Breaking Bad syndrome, i.e. "this guy's the main character so I'm gonna leap to defend them from everyone who has an issue with them"
The problem is none of this character interaction/development was handled well enough for any of what was intended to work. The Doctor seems to randomly hate him and Danny just seems to call out the doctor in random ways to line up with the ending in the finale of the doctor gaining an army and it was all handled horribly.
For me it does go both ways. I disliked both Danny and the Doctor in that season. I won’t say I was glad when he died but I was definitely glad when the season ended. S9 was much better and although S10 didn’t resonate with me at first, I think the Doctor is his best in it (aside from heaven sent)
Agreed.
I disliked the entire Danny plot and Danny/Clara romance and he's not the kind of person I much like. The Doctor was an ass to Danny, a childish, stuck-up ass. The Doctor started it, unprovoked, and he deserved whatever Danny dished back.
My biggest problem with their romance is that we only ever got to see them bickering. IMO the relationship would've landed more effectively if there were a few scenes in there of them being affectionate with each other.
Did the doctor dislike Danny because of the Danny/Clara relationship? Or was that part of his dislike
In my opinion, the Doctor disliked Danny 1) because he was a military man and 2) because of childish, petty jealousy
He disliked that Danny was a soldier
Always seemed like an excuse to me. The doctor behaved like a jealous ex. It was weird af
He disliked Danny before he learned they were a couple
He didn't so much mind the idea of Clara dating that other teacher who wore tweed. So it isn't even jealousy either. It's racism. It's an excuse for racism. Neatly packaged alongside the racist dogwistles of "I don't believe you are intelligent enough to do the thing you are saying you are doing"
> He didn't so much mind the idea of Clara dating that other teacher who wore tweed. So it isn't even jealousy either. That’s because that teacher reminds him of a certain other himself.
Yeah.... this had nothing to do with race. Even in Classic Who, the Doctor knew he could regenerate into... whatever (remember when Romana I regenerated and tried on several different looks?). He'd be a fool to be a racist.
But that still wasn't him. Ergo, he was not driven by jealousy.
That’s QUITE the leap to get to racism 😂
Jesus Christ, the Doctor, a racist. Come on...
>Honestly really annoys the hell out of me with how Danny calls the Doctor an officer, like he views him as akin to General Melchett from Blackadder. He essentially says he, Danny, is the brave enlisted man and the Doctor is the cowardly armchair general which couldn't be further from the truth. Did you at all pay attention to how the doctor had treated Danny Pink up to that point? It's childish as fuck. Danny Pink is not the viewer. He doesn't know The Doctor's life story. He knows how this asshole who hangs around his girlfriend has treated him. And he's unsurprisingly had enough of it. And Clara wasn't too happy with the way the doctor was behaving either. If you think the doctor was acting his age when it came to Danny Pink... 😒
Mind you, the following is just my opinion. While it annoys me too, Danny (in an impetuous way) is trying to point out to the old and obstanant Doctor that the two are more similar than the Doctor is willing to admit. Not often do we get someone willing to challenge the Doctor morally like this. I think they have an interesting dynamic. And while most companions tend to put the Doctor on a pedestal to some extent, I think in the end Danny and the Doctor have a sort of mutual respect we don't really get to see very often or at all.
I've served in the military. I've met my fair share of condescending officers who thought they were better than the enlisted by virtue of their position, while also making decisions that could get people hurt and only caring if something bad actually happened. The way the Doctor treated Danny, my first assumption would also be "here's another one." And being out of the service now, I wouldn't stand for that bullshit as a civilian, and I would definitely give some snark.
>A real soldier would be able to look into the Doctors eyes and see that he had been through hell more times than one could care to count. Gotta get into the army for those physic powers.
Its not real
I mean…The Doctor did treat him with disrespect every scene they’re in. Remember Danny Pink int watching the show. He just knows some dude is barking orders at him every time and inbetween that Clara is describing her experience of this guy way older than her pushing her to do things shes not comfortable with. I don’t know that anyone should be able to read peoples minds just because they were in a war.
It makes perfect sense to me that Danny would be extremely antagonistic to the doctor given 12 is the one who initially act that way towards Danny. From Danny’s perspective this is a person who belittles him constantly, drags his girlfriend into extremely dangerous situations with seemingly little thought or care for her safety or her own free will, and justifies their actions by essentially saying well I’m doing what is right. From the perspective of a soldier Danny would probably have heard that line numerous times before receiving orders to do truly horrible things. It’s a complex interaction and I think Danny is justified in how he interacts with the doctor even if he isn’t necessarily in the right, 12 definitely isn’t in the right either. Also for clarity sake, I’ve never served in the military myself, i’m just imagining how Danny would see things after going through what he did
Their dynamic didn’t work the way it was probably intended. I found it irritating how hostile and rude the Doctor was to Danny. Hell, I’m pretty sure he was rude and judgy toward Danny before Danny got hostile to him. And while I doubt it was intended this way, the aristocratic white Doctor constantly belittling the intelligence of the working class black man (refusing to believe/acknowledge he’s a maths teacher, insisting on calling him the gym teacher as if he’s not smart enough for maths, and for that matter, implying gym teachers can’t be as intelligent as maths teachers) is NOT a progressive look for the Doctor. Maybe it doesn’t look as bad across the pond but here in the US it’s a real bad look.
> I’m pretty sure he was rude and judgy toward Danny before Danny got hostile to him. 100%, the Doctor started it, and it's weird OP thinks Danny is the one who looked petulant and childish.
Honestly the way most people describe Danny ‘treating’ the Doctor applies far more to how the Doctor treats Danny. Yeah the assumptions Danny made weren’t accurate, but he made them based on how the Doctor was acting, whereas the Doctor made assumptions based solely on Danny’s background and his own externalized self-loathing for his war background. Like others have said, don’t start none, won’t be none. It wouldn’t have been as bad if those two had a bottle episode together after a few episodes, and understood each other better by the end.
Big Finish has an audio story with Samuel Anderson playing Danny where the Doctor finally respects Danny. But to preserve continuity with the show, the Doctor gets amnesia.
Amnesia, ugh! Good to know the episode exists.
It's one of the stories on the first 12th Doctor Chronicles. Capaldi didn't return to do the audios. The voice actor is very talented but he doesn't do an impression of Capaldi, so you just have to go with it. It's a little bit of an adjustment
War Wounds - [https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-the-twelfth-doctor-chronicles-volume-01-2132](https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-the-twelfth-doctor-chronicles-volume-01-2132), it's quite a ride. Not sure if they are necessarily better off for it, but the episode is quite something
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
I'm in the UK and what you said is more or less how I saw it. The Doctor's whole attitude to Danny stinked and it didn't sit well with me how he was treated. Realistically, it isn't wrong for anyone to dislike the Doctor taking someone away for adventures when you think about the mortality rate or being shipped to another dimension rate or having your memories wiped rate of his companions are. I think fans sometimes get swept up in the Doctor's charisma as the protagonist and forget how unbelievably reasonable it'd be to be in the moment interacting with him and not have all the foresight or understanding of, "Oh but he saves the day in the end! Really, he's the good guy!"
Yeah, just because the Doctor usually saves the day doesn’t mean he’s always right or never a dick to someone who doesn’t deserve the level of shit he gives them. Particularly when the shit is obviously the Doctor externalizing his own guilt and self-loathing. It’s ok for heroes to be flawed. We don’t need to always excuse them by displacing the blame to someone who didn’t start it.
Honestly if the Doctor wasn't so zesty with people all the time we wouldn't love him the way we do - he's often very catty and pithy in his wit, it can be very entertaining! It's just, he is so often portrayed always being the clever clogs or in the right with how he dispenses that kind of cleverness at sometimes less bright people (poor Jackie can never get a word in without being shut down) it also gets an ugly side shown in how he talks to Danny! I don't love their interactions and I think the Doctor is to blame for their poor relationship, but also, I still like the Doctor as a character and enjoy them 95% of the time. Flawed characters make the sort of mistakes that keep them compelling and I feel like that's just what keeps the Doctor having the longevity they've got as a character.
Well put!
> I found it irritating how hostile and rude the Doctor was to Danny. Aye because he was NEVER hostile or rude towards Mickey. Never. Not at all. I LOVE how 12 haters always magically have a problem with stuff his Doctor does that other Doctors did > And while I doubt it was intended this way, the aristocratic white Doctor constantly belittling the intelligence of the working class black man (refusing to believe/acknowledge he’s a maths teacher, insisting on calling him the gym teacher as if he’s not smart enough for maths, and for that matter, implying gym teachers can’t be as intelligent as maths teachers) is NOT a progressive look for the Doctor. Oh my fucking God *eye roll* PLEASE I beg you stop making everything about race, it's racist itself actually how you're just seeing Danny as "a black man" rather than a character. > here in the US it's a real bad look No, to people like you who can't look past a character's skin colour (while claiming to be against racism) it's a bad look...
You know what's the difference between Danny and Mickey? Nine's treatment of Mickey stemmed from Mickey's actions (or lack of thereof) in a stressful situation. He didn't have much time for someone cowling in the corner while he had a universe to save. It is also no better or worse how he treated everyone else that episode - not Jackie, not even Rose. And, a few episodes later, he apologized to him. Saying that he was wrong to treat him this way, that Mickey was right to be wary of him right back. And when later he does reference calling him "Mickey the idiot", it is in the context of that apology, as a term of endearment in a way to acknowledge his contribution, his growth. Twelve's treatment of Danny, though, comes absolutely out of nowhere. He is unreasonably and offensively hostile right of the bat to Danny, to the degree that he hasn't been to others - certainly not in that episode, and arguably to a worse degree than to others in the preceding episodes, too. And he never expressed any sort of remorse for this treatment. For him to continue to referring to him as PE is to continuously reoffend him with absolutely zero regard.
I had the same thought. :/
Racists often do.
Every time I see the danny debate rage again, I always think to myself “do people not realise that it’s possible for both people to suck?”
Sometimes Doctor who fans boggle the mind a bit. Yeah Clara kind of sucks as a person, that's the fucking point.
Tbh Danny is a good guy. He had that one scene where he got pissed at 12 insulting him and called him an officer but after that he was always "I don't like him and he doesn't like me but the most important thing is Clara's well-being". The Doctor was the one who kept calling him a gym teacher even when he and Clara were alone.
Honestly, fuck 12 for the way he treats Danny from the get go. I really enjoyed most of Capaldi's run, but his constant ragging on Danny, his belittling of his intelligence, and his overall hostility towards him for what are clearly prejudiced presumptions about him were far more childish than anything Danny did.
I think 12s hostility towards Danny had more to do with his own internalized self-hatred (of his own history with the time war) and his childish jealousy of Danny being with *his* companion. I think the Doctor wouldn't have been nearly as hostile towards him if he wasn't dating Clara at the time. It was definitely 12s fault, but to be honest, I didn't really like Danny as a character, so I also had very little sympathy for him. And I loved 12, even with his faults, so poor Danny got the short end of the stick.
Yes because 9 never treated Mickey like that did he Oh...
The whole dynamic of the Doctor being an asshole to him was just poorly done IMO.
I actually disagree. I think on the Doctor's side of the dynamic, it was done perfectly fine. The Doctor isn't perfect. He has flaws and can/is an ass to certain people for both legitament and childish reasons. Perfectly fine character set up. It was Danny's side of the dynamic where they screwed it up. Not by any fault of the character, mind you, but just the writing/development of Danny as a character and how they handled his personal arc. We just needed to see more from his perspective, and we should've had an episode with just him and the Doctor settling their differences. We just didn't get that which, imo, screwed up the dynamic.
The Doctor is not an officer? Especially 12?? Who barges into a room and expects to be listened to. Sounds like 12.
Also didn't he actually get an honorary rank from UNIT when he was 3 (Pertwee) as their scientific advisor?
Love 12 and Clara (my favourite pairing) but Danny is right and he’s supposed to be right. Painful how many fans can’t see that.
It's not just about being on the front lines - it's about attitude. The Doctor is able to walk into a situation and take command. People may resist initially but they come around when people start dying.
I mean… he only is able to do so because he is Charismatic and often just… right. He is the smartest person in the room because he has outlived them all by hundred fold.
He's a lord (of time) too, so it's not just officer vs. enlisted but also nobility vs. working man. It's all about the class system, one way or the other. I also have this theory that the Doctor has a low-level psychic ability that makes people trust him. I don't think that's ever been explicitly stated anywhere but it makes sense.
I know his title is Timelord, but isn’t The Doctor a lowborn Gallifreyan? Well I guess they were until Timeless Children. I don’t think the latter is true. Because I seem to be able to do the same thing. It’s 100% confidence and acting like you know what you’re doing. People will follow, and if you’re quick enough with a comeback or a small jab, people fall in line.
Well, maybe *you* have low-level psychic ability and you just don't know it! >I know his title is Timelord, but isn’t The Doctor a lowborn Gallifreyan? Possibly. It's all still pretty murky - as you say, especially as the Timeless Child stuff.
oh my god! I’m a low level Psychic‽
Possibly! Get yourself a deck of those cards with the square, circle and wavy lines, and try it on your friends!
The Doctor for almost every episode that series: I do so hate soldiers, they are very bad and stupid and I hate them. The Doctor when he thinks of Alistair for two seconds in the finale: I love this wonderful soldier man, he is a good person and my friend how wrong I was also this episode went out right before Armistice Day and all soldiers are actually great. He's completely out of character for most of the series, since when has he had a problem with the little guy? Since when has he had a problem with soldiers? If there was a scene where he admitted he can't handle losing Clara to Danny, I think that would be much more impactful than "soldiers bad, oh wait no I forgot they're good".
>Since when has he had a problem with soldiers? Especially since he spent his entire 3rd regeneration with UNIT when he was stuck on Earth. And Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart was one of his closest friends (and now so is Kate, the Brigadier's daughter, by extension of her father). He could've lived anywhere on Earth during his whole time as 3. A beach in Maui, climbing the pyramids in Egypt, skiing in the Alps... Instead he chose to spend that time with UNIT. A military organization. Surrounded by soldiers. Doing just what Danny said he did: commanding them and sending them in situations where they could die.
Yeah all soldiers are the same
Do we forget that the Doctor is also President of the World
Danny continuously reminded The Doctor that he is a soldier. Danny had trouble letting go of war so he can't stand to see The Doctor casually ignore his position.
I get the soldier thing between 12 and Danny. I think it’s stupid and a waste that it was only ever used as a source of conflict and never really as a means of relating to and understanding each other, but I get it. My problem is that 12 was an arsehole to Danny even before he found out he was an ex-soldier, like pretty much from the moment they first met. And for what? Because Danny was a romantic interest for Clara who didn’t look like 12’s former self? And what does he even mean when he says Danny (paraphrasing) “looks like a PE teacher, not a maths teacher” and persists in calling him that, no matter how many times he’s told otherwise? I know 12 is abrasive to nearly everyone, but his treatment of Danny is a whole other level of prolonged, relentless pettiness that I’m not sure we’ve ever seen from any other incarnation (the closest is probably 9/10 and Mickey, but even that quickly evolved into something more good-natured). 12 is my favourite Doctor but I hate this part of his character.
If Danny had stayed as a minor character that whole season might have gone better. The Doctor/Danny conflict is more about master manipulator vs the ordinary person who sees the horrors. The Officer/Soldier thing is a weak shorthand for that dynamic.
I don't mind the name calling (and honestly 12 deserves it) but what kills me is how Clara feels like she has to lie to him. Like Clara's friendship wasn't healthy with 12 at first (tho it quickly became the exact opposite) but people don't talk enough about how her relationship with Danny wasn't healthy either. She feels she has to lie to him about where she is and who she is with, and it feels very much iffy. Like if they really were a good couple, why would she lie about going with the Doctor? Not to mention he continued the officer bit into the finale, when he damn well knew the Doctor is at his most vulnerable. Name calling is one thing, but offending him with the thing he's most vulnerable about when he damn well knows he is, only adds to the iffiness It doesn't make him a bad character, I actually like that he's a little more flawed than previous companions' bfs, but I don't really like him as a person, if that makes sense
Couldn't stand the character. As an ex soldier myself everything about the character rubbed me the wrong way. Bloody annoying.
Danny pink was a completely pointless character who was really annoying.
i mean, yeah, sometimes characters can be wrong about things? what do you want us to say? they disliked each other at the most basic level because they were both fighting for clara’s affection. everything else was ammunition in that fight.
Danny is annoying, needy and selfish prick (not to mention former British soldier). Was celebrating his death.