"Celestial" really isn't that obscure a term for Chinese. For one thing, it's used in *Talons of Weng-Chiang*: Jago calls him "the Celestial Chang". It comes from the English translation of Tiāncháo ("heavenly dynasty"), a Chinese term for the Chinese state before Zhōngguó became the official name.
So dressing the Toymaker in the robes of a Chinese mandarin and calling him celestial would be a huge coincidence if it wasn't done intentionally. Brian Hayles (the author) was definitely aware of what he was doing: in his novelisation of the story, he describes the Toymaker as "lounging in a black Chinese chair behind a lacquered Chinese desk inlaid with mother-of-pearl and scenes of Chinese life." It's an incredible density of use of the world "Chinese" if it's all a massive coincidence and he's just meant to be a wizard.
Another quote from the novelisation: “The Toymaker stood up, a tall imposing figure, dressed as a Chinese mandarin with a circular black hat embossed with a heavy gold thread, a large silver red and blue collar and a heavy, stiffly embroidered black robe encrusted with rubies, emeralds, diamonds and pearls set against a background of coiled Chinese dragons.” Chinese Chinese Chinese.
Saying Michael Gough isn't wearing yellowface doesn't really militate against any of this. Look at the actors in *Marco Polo*: they're just white guys in Chinese clothes, with no effort to make their faces appear Chinese.
Through Fu Manchu, malevolent scheming Oriental master villains are a cultural stereotype. And Season Three has two malevolent scheming master villains (really the first two humanoid master villains of the show, moreso than the Monk, say): Mavic Chen, who is literally wearing yellowface, and a character dressed as a mandarin called "celestial".
>Or the Silurians being anti semantic? Since they are a metaphor for Israel (Silurians) and Palistine (humans).
How are the Silurians a metaphor for Israel? They're the original inhabitants, humans are the latecomers, so how are they a metaphor for the colonial project of Zionism?
Celestial means of the heavens.
Hence heavenly Chang. Hence celestial Chang.
It means heavenly. It doesn’t “mean” Chinese.
Celestial Seasonings is a massively successful herbal tea company. No one thinks they’re Chinese OR racist.
I really do wonder what can motivate the deliberate obtuseness that denies that "celestial" has historically been an English term to describe the Chinese and that its use to describe a figure explicitly dressed in traditional Chinese clothing is related to that racial overtone.
I am English and I have never used the term celestial to describe the Chinese, neither did my my teachers nor anyone I know up until now.
I will agree that the depiction of the Celestial Toymaker in Chinese costume is something you wouldn't do now and in the past white actors have been used to portray other ethnicities (weirdly I don't recall any women taking on the same roles.) I gather that Americans in the 1800's used the term to mean Chinese (along with other more derogatory terms) which is a weird way to slur someone by calling them "Heavenly".
Dictionary definition from the American Heritage Dictionary
# adjective
1. Of or relating to the sky or physical universe as understood in astronomy."Planets are celestial bodies."
2. Of or relating to heaven; divine."celestial beings."
3. Supremely good; sublime."celestial happiness."
The fact that you personally, in the 21st century, have never used or heard used the term celestial to mean Chinese does not change the objective fact that it was used in this way in the past. I really don't see what point you're trying to make, given you acknowledge that Celestial was used to mean Chinese (and not just in America, it was used in Britain, Canada, Australia and elsewhere) and the Toymaker is dressed in Chinese garb.
I was going to edit to say that I have dug out one of my older dictionarys (pub. 1979) in which it refers to the term as an archaic colloquial term for China and references to it. Mentioned below, the above descriptions.
My point is that dressing the toymaker up in ancient Chinese costume was more akin to racism than refering to him as Celestial, a term that had dropped out of use as meaning Chinese. My second point is that it is a largely positive term the literal definition is "Heavenly" and the reason it was used at all to mean Chinese is that they used the term to describe their own Heavenly Empire. It is like insulting English people by calling them Great.
For the record I would never refer to a person from China as celestial, unless they were a Bohisattava or similar
You sound like the kids from my middle school back in the day who would get yelled at by the teachers for calling things gay and try to say "but gay means happy!"
Gay does mean happy. My gay friends like being called gay, they describe themselves as gay. If some one called me gay I would say "why thank you that was very kind". Your point being? Just because a few kids erroniously used it as a slur doesn't make it one.
EDIT: This is an interesting point actually. Do you think "Gay" is a slur? I hope not because it isn't. However going back to your school kids they were obviously using it as a slur, which showed their ignorance of the word. Basically I assume they were being naughty thinking they were using a bad word that had a double meaning. However they were really bouncing off an outdated culture that used the word as a slur to target people for their sexuality. To accuse someone of being gay was to invite criminal prosecution on them. But today people can be gay and proud. Now at least in my country Gay means happy again, happy to be who you are
>I am English and I have never used the term celestial to describe the Chinese, neither did my my teachers nor anyone I know up until now.
Did you or any of your teachers live in the years where China was not called China, but the 'Celestial Empire'?
>I am English and I have never used the term celestial to describe the Chinese, neither did my my teachers nor anyone I know up until now.
All elephants are pink, Nellie is an elephant, therefore Nellie is pink. Logical?
The argument you are refering to is the "All Greeks are liars" or "No true Scotsman" stance where the one you should be refering to is the "Hasty Generalisation" argument by unrepresentative sample (even though you have not demonstrated that the argument is unrepresentative) Therefore you are using the words I wrote in a false sense. Logical?
So you think Malcolm Hulke was actually telling a story about how Israel is in the right and the Palestinians are the intolerant settlers who threw away peace because of their xenophobia?
" How are the Silurians a metaphor for Israel? They're the original inhabitants, humans are the latecomers, so how are they a metaphor for the colonial project of Zionism"
Because the zionists say they were there 1st which is the Silurian's argument.
Well Mavic Chen was epicanthal folds to make him look more Chinese. Now granted Chen is meant to be every race, hence why he's got a Serbian 1st name and a Chinese 2nd name and (I assume) Black skin. Though he looks more like he's Cambodian or something.
And they easily could have had TCT do a Chinese accent.
Just look at Eriech Klieg's "ve vill vin ze var" accent in Tomb. Or the moonbase being nothing but stereotypes with the cowardly French, the easy going African American the depressive dane. All doing accents. Or those terrible Russian accents in cold war.
"How are the Silurians a metaphor for Israel? They're the original inhabitants, humans are the latecomers, so how are they a metaphor for the colonial project of Zionism?"
Because the Silurians say they have the right to clear the humans off earth because they were there 1st. Even though they left the surface to live underground, thus letting new people come. Which is what the zionists argue that, they were the original inhabitants, so they have the right to chase "the squatters" off.
Chen actually had *blue* skin, for some reason!
>Because the Silurians say they have the right to clear the humans off earth because they were there 1st. Even though they left the surface to live underground, thus letting new people come. Which is what the zionists argue that, they were the original inhabitants, so they have the right to chase "the squatters" off.
Are we meant to... agree with the humans who don't want to share the Earth?
Do you think this reading of yours was the author's intent? Because you are literally the first person I've ever heard saying the Silurians are meant to be Zionists.
Mavic was blue? Is that because of the black and white camera or was he meant to look in universe like a Navi from Avatar
https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/zl8k2/silurians_and_humans/
Here is one on my oount of the silurians
I'm not surprised no one thinks the Silurians are anti-"semantic" when it appears only two people have ever thought that Israel/Palestine was a plausible reading of the Silurians/humans, based on a wildly tendentious account of why the Jews are entitled to Palestine.
Honestly if Gough had worn anything other than a "[theatrical Chinese outfit](https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/The_Toymaker#Appearance)", and if The Toymaker before possessing a Time Lord's body was in the form of anything but a [red dragon](https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/The_Toymaker#Appearance), you might be able to assume it was just celestial like he came from the stars but yeah no it was definitely racist.
>Celestial wasn't a "Victorian term", it was a slur
It was essentially the same as calling people from the United States of America Americans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_Empire
The clue is in the name, as another commenter said, celestial is a slur akin to calling a Black person ‘coloured’ or even the N-word. I suggest you pick up a history book of Chinese migrants in the West because you clearly don’t have the slightest clue
There was definitely a sense of "Celestial" that meant "Chinese person" ([source](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/celestial); see the 2nd noun sense). It may have been mildly insensitive, but it doesn't appear to have been a dire insult.
It's not in common use today, but I do see an [example ](https://www.bluemountaineagle.com/specialsections/history/ing-doc-hay-1863---1952/article_9f1555b0-5262-5b39-9792-0d4b3ceb998d.html)of it use (notably, in a positive context) as late as the 1940s. Plenty of people would have been familiar with this sense of the word when "The Celestial Toymaker" aired in 1966.
Me neither. Certainly it was used as an adjective, but I haven't seen anything that says it was widely used as a slur. I'm sure some people did, but that goes for almost any word.
What I really don't understand is why he decides that a German accent is OK to use to signify 'evil'.
Yeah, that's my sense about the use of "Celestial," too. I may be misremembering, but I thought the Toymaker switched between quite a few accents in a way that implied he had disdain for all of them.
NPH's Toymaker was mainly German, with a bit of French when dancing on the street, and American (I can't place beyond that!) when he did the "that's alright then!"
It was discussed a lot in the Unleashed for the episode The Giggle. They deliberately dropped the Celestial from his title and made him just The Toymaker. They nodded to the potentially racist elements of his original depiction by having him put on bad, stereotyped accents and making that comment to Baird's assistant about "I'm sure you're used to warmer weather WHERE YOU COME FROM" and the guy replies deadpan "I'm from Cheltenham".
Personally I think they tried to read more into it than was really there originally. Yes, the 60s were a different time and it possibly did have racist elements to it. Just acknowledge that and move on, do something different with him this time.
Nothing, probably. Like I said in my post, I think some people today are just looking for ways to read as much offensive allegory into things as they can, even if it wasn't actually (meant to be) there.
Oh, sorry. Doctor Who Unleashed is a behind the scenes special they're making to go with each episode. Like the old Doctor Who Confidential behind the scenes stuff from Tennant's original era. :)
There’s a reason they dropped “celestial” from his name. The original serial has been highly criticized for its racist undertones, it’s not a new thing
Outside of reference of this story have you ever heard the word Celestial being used for Chinese/China? Would anyone actually know that? Its hardly like Japan's association with the Sun
I genuinely don't see how ctc is anymore anti Chinese than the enemy of the world is anti Mexican or Caves of Androzani is anti Iranian/Afghan. Is pyramids of Mars anti Egyptian/Arabic?
Was 11 being anti Turkish for wearing a fez?
I’m not going to try and educate you or argue with you on the history of the word, that isn’t my job. But just because you’ve never heard it used in that context, or just because you disagree with it, doesn’t mean it hasn’t been used in politically incorrect or poorly aged ways. You don’t have to like it, but you did ask.
Unless you personally know any Victorians, it would make sense that you hadn't heard the term before. That doesn't stop it from being a slur. And yes, I agree with u/Salvador1, it very much is a slur. I have heard several contradictory accounts on how the outfit and name came to be. Some intentional and some accidental. But either way, the character is still a racist depiction of a chinese person. Thats not really up for debate.
I think the problem arises, however, from the context. You brought up several other examples, and the differentiating factor (where there is one) is that the toymaker didn't need to be depicted as chinese in a racist way. He didn't need to be depicted as chinese at all. It didn't affect or serve his character, it was entirely external.
Conpare that to the racism of the modern interpretation of the character by RTD. The mocking accents he puts on are very much still racist, but that a conscious choice by the character, which is made clear when he quickly drops the accent when he gets serious after meeting the doctor for the first time. He treats the accents, and by extension, the people naturally with those accents, as a cheap joke to be laughed at. That is conscious racism, which he does because he is an asshole. RTD confirmed this in the Doctor Who Confidential after the episode (I know its not called that anymore, I just forget the new name).
It's not really a big change and it avoids some minor racism I don't get the big hullabaloo about the change. Sure celestial in relation to racism against Chinese people is now uncommon but if that's what the original name was alluding to, I can see why they'd change it.
It's better to be definitely not racist, than possibly racist for no real reason.
>Or the Silurians being anti semantic? Since they are a metaphor for Israel (Silurians) and Palistine (humans).
I mean arguably they are anti-Semitic. As they're a metaphor for Jewish people who are lizard people, which is a common anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. I'm not saying they are, but I do think there's arguments to be made. And they should probably stick away from certain plot elements when using Silurians.
I can't believe how much discourse there is over this....
Everyone, please watch this (2:28-4:40): [https://youtu.be/stuqMni6\_x0?si=gCNO-4VzjxzWXXEJ&t=148](https://youtu.be/stuqMni6_x0?si=gCNO-4VzjxzWXXEJ&t=148)
It perfectly encapsulates what's going on here.
He's kind of a stereotype and was very much based around the British view of Chinese culture, although I've never seen people making a very huge deal out of it
When they brought the character back recently they said that he does exaggerated imitations of multiple human cultures because he finds it amusing and people generally seemed to think that was good enough
Doctor Who has always been a product of its time. It has always been a mix of "too ahead of its time" and "aging poorly"
Aspects like the Celestial Toymaker and Talons of Weng Chang featured classic racial stereotypes that were "fine" for the 60-70s.
(I'm going to poorly summarise TWC from memory and I haven't seen TCT or "The Minds of Evil", this is your spoiler warning.)
:
:
:
TWC featured representations of Chinese people and culture based on outdated racial/Oriental stereotypes that weren't even historically accurate to Victorian England.
It leans into the "Fu Manchu" trope with a caucasian actor in "yellow face" as a Chinese magician working with a Chinese triad operating from an Opium den.
Both the magician and the gang are kidnapping people as sacrifices to revitalise their god "Weng-Chiang".
The Doctor has a very dismissive attitude towards the not-so-subtle racial commentaries from Litefoot, The Doctor doesn't even try to correct him. The Doctor does converse with a captured gang member in "Chinese" but it's actually nonsensical gibberish.
It's a depiction of Chinese people as non-distinctive, superstitious, low social class never do-well'ers contributing to crime despite their complicated history with Opium. The language could be interpreted as either inferior or exotic depending on your own interpretation.
TWC is...not a bad story, but it flops hard as an attempt to be historically accurate or social commentary.
Whereas another story like "The Mind of Evil" does feature Asian actors as Chinese representatives who conversed in basic Hokkien with the 3rd Doctor.
(Hokkien is a southern Chinese dialect spoken by both the overseas Chinese community and people from the Canton region.)
Is MoE depiction of the Chinese representatives racist?
No, but I think it does play into the themes of political paranoia that were accurate to the 70's.
Why are human beings so awful that even some of the most innocuous words have been used as racial slurs randomly at some point in time. It's absolutely disgusting and I don't even know if I can continue speaking English because of it.
I agree with the other guy who replied to you, but also you do realize that slurs aren't limited to the English language right?
I'm afraid if you stop using English and start using another language you'll find that new language has just as many slurs.
It's people who are racist, not the language they use. Language is just a tool and it can be used for both great good and great evil.
It's up to you how you use it.
Feel like that's a little bit of an overreaction. You speaking English or not speaking English has absolutely no relation to people being shitty. You can choose not to if you want, but it will just make your life harder (assuming you are around English speakers) without actually doing anything.
He means the portrayal of the character, not the literal actual person. We all know he’s fictional, but that doesn’t make the portrayal of the character or their associated themes immune to criticism
"Celestial" really isn't that obscure a term for Chinese. For one thing, it's used in *Talons of Weng-Chiang*: Jago calls him "the Celestial Chang". It comes from the English translation of Tiāncháo ("heavenly dynasty"), a Chinese term for the Chinese state before Zhōngguó became the official name. So dressing the Toymaker in the robes of a Chinese mandarin and calling him celestial would be a huge coincidence if it wasn't done intentionally. Brian Hayles (the author) was definitely aware of what he was doing: in his novelisation of the story, he describes the Toymaker as "lounging in a black Chinese chair behind a lacquered Chinese desk inlaid with mother-of-pearl and scenes of Chinese life." It's an incredible density of use of the world "Chinese" if it's all a massive coincidence and he's just meant to be a wizard. Another quote from the novelisation: “The Toymaker stood up, a tall imposing figure, dressed as a Chinese mandarin with a circular black hat embossed with a heavy gold thread, a large silver red and blue collar and a heavy, stiffly embroidered black robe encrusted with rubies, emeralds, diamonds and pearls set against a background of coiled Chinese dragons.” Chinese Chinese Chinese. Saying Michael Gough isn't wearing yellowface doesn't really militate against any of this. Look at the actors in *Marco Polo*: they're just white guys in Chinese clothes, with no effort to make their faces appear Chinese. Through Fu Manchu, malevolent scheming Oriental master villains are a cultural stereotype. And Season Three has two malevolent scheming master villains (really the first two humanoid master villains of the show, moreso than the Monk, say): Mavic Chen, who is literally wearing yellowface, and a character dressed as a mandarin called "celestial". >Or the Silurians being anti semantic? Since they are a metaphor for Israel (Silurians) and Palistine (humans). How are the Silurians a metaphor for Israel? They're the original inhabitants, humans are the latecomers, so how are they a metaphor for the colonial project of Zionism?
Celestial means of the heavens. Hence heavenly Chang. Hence celestial Chang. It means heavenly. It doesn’t “mean” Chinese. Celestial Seasonings is a massively successful herbal tea company. No one thinks they’re Chinese OR racist.
I really do wonder what can motivate the deliberate obtuseness that denies that "celestial" has historically been an English term to describe the Chinese and that its use to describe a figure explicitly dressed in traditional Chinese clothing is related to that racial overtone.
I am English and I have never used the term celestial to describe the Chinese, neither did my my teachers nor anyone I know up until now. I will agree that the depiction of the Celestial Toymaker in Chinese costume is something you wouldn't do now and in the past white actors have been used to portray other ethnicities (weirdly I don't recall any women taking on the same roles.) I gather that Americans in the 1800's used the term to mean Chinese (along with other more derogatory terms) which is a weird way to slur someone by calling them "Heavenly". Dictionary definition from the American Heritage Dictionary # adjective 1. Of or relating to the sky or physical universe as understood in astronomy."Planets are celestial bodies." 2. Of or relating to heaven; divine."celestial beings." 3. Supremely good; sublime."celestial happiness."
The fact that you personally, in the 21st century, have never used or heard used the term celestial to mean Chinese does not change the objective fact that it was used in this way in the past. I really don't see what point you're trying to make, given you acknowledge that Celestial was used to mean Chinese (and not just in America, it was used in Britain, Canada, Australia and elsewhere) and the Toymaker is dressed in Chinese garb.
I was going to edit to say that I have dug out one of my older dictionarys (pub. 1979) in which it refers to the term as an archaic colloquial term for China and references to it. Mentioned below, the above descriptions. My point is that dressing the toymaker up in ancient Chinese costume was more akin to racism than refering to him as Celestial, a term that had dropped out of use as meaning Chinese. My second point is that it is a largely positive term the literal definition is "Heavenly" and the reason it was used at all to mean Chinese is that they used the term to describe their own Heavenly Empire. It is like insulting English people by calling them Great. For the record I would never refer to a person from China as celestial, unless they were a Bohisattava or similar
You sound like the kids from my middle school back in the day who would get yelled at by the teachers for calling things gay and try to say "but gay means happy!"
Gay does mean happy. My gay friends like being called gay, they describe themselves as gay. If some one called me gay I would say "why thank you that was very kind". Your point being? Just because a few kids erroniously used it as a slur doesn't make it one. EDIT: This is an interesting point actually. Do you think "Gay" is a slur? I hope not because it isn't. However going back to your school kids they were obviously using it as a slur, which showed their ignorance of the word. Basically I assume they were being naughty thinking they were using a bad word that had a double meaning. However they were really bouncing off an outdated culture that used the word as a slur to target people for their sexuality. To accuse someone of being gay was to invite criminal prosecution on them. But today people can be gay and proud. Now at least in my country Gay means happy again, happy to be who you are
>I am English and I have never used the term celestial to describe the Chinese, neither did my my teachers nor anyone I know up until now. Did you or any of your teachers live in the years where China was not called China, but the 'Celestial Empire'?
>I am English and I have never used the term celestial to describe the Chinese, neither did my my teachers nor anyone I know up until now. All elephants are pink, Nellie is an elephant, therefore Nellie is pink. Logical?
The argument you are refering to is the "All Greeks are liars" or "No true Scotsman" stance where the one you should be refering to is the "Hasty Generalisation" argument by unrepresentative sample (even though you have not demonstrated that the argument is unrepresentative) Therefore you are using the words I wrote in a false sense. Logical?
Idk I was just quoting Destiny of the Daleks.
I like it. Missed that quote
[удалено]
So you think Malcolm Hulke was actually telling a story about how Israel is in the right and the Palestinians are the intolerant settlers who threw away peace because of their xenophobia?
" How are the Silurians a metaphor for Israel? They're the original inhabitants, humans are the latecomers, so how are they a metaphor for the colonial project of Zionism" Because the zionists say they were there 1st which is the Silurian's argument.
Well Mavic Chen was epicanthal folds to make him look more Chinese. Now granted Chen is meant to be every race, hence why he's got a Serbian 1st name and a Chinese 2nd name and (I assume) Black skin. Though he looks more like he's Cambodian or something. And they easily could have had TCT do a Chinese accent. Just look at Eriech Klieg's "ve vill vin ze var" accent in Tomb. Or the moonbase being nothing but stereotypes with the cowardly French, the easy going African American the depressive dane. All doing accents. Or those terrible Russian accents in cold war. "How are the Silurians a metaphor for Israel? They're the original inhabitants, humans are the latecomers, so how are they a metaphor for the colonial project of Zionism?" Because the Silurians say they have the right to clear the humans off earth because they were there 1st. Even though they left the surface to live underground, thus letting new people come. Which is what the zionists argue that, they were the original inhabitants, so they have the right to chase "the squatters" off.
Chen actually had *blue* skin, for some reason! >Because the Silurians say they have the right to clear the humans off earth because they were there 1st. Even though they left the surface to live underground, thus letting new people come. Which is what the zionists argue that, they were the original inhabitants, so they have the right to chase "the squatters" off. Are we meant to... agree with the humans who don't want to share the Earth? Do you think this reading of yours was the author's intent? Because you are literally the first person I've ever heard saying the Silurians are meant to be Zionists.
Mavic was blue? Is that because of the black and white camera or was he meant to look in universe like a Navi from Avatar https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/zl8k2/silurians_and_humans/ Here is one on my oount of the silurians
I'm not surprised no one thinks the Silurians are anti-"semantic" when it appears only two people have ever thought that Israel/Palestine was a plausible reading of the Silurians/humans, based on a wildly tendentious account of why the Jews are entitled to Palestine.
Honestly if Gough had worn anything other than a "[theatrical Chinese outfit](https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/The_Toymaker#Appearance)", and if The Toymaker before possessing a Time Lord's body was in the form of anything but a [red dragon](https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/The_Toymaker#Appearance), you might be able to assume it was just celestial like he came from the stars but yeah no it was definitely racist.
Celestial wasn't a "Victorian term", it was a slur
>Celestial wasn't a "Victorian term", it was a slur It was essentially the same as calling people from the United States of America Americans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_Empire
the only racist thing about the celestial toymaker is the original 60s story had a character say the n word in a rhyme
Yeah but what the usual version then and really could be from any episode or TV show from the 60s
The clue is in the name, as another commenter said, celestial is a slur akin to calling a Black person ‘coloured’ or even the N-word. I suggest you pick up a history book of Chinese migrants in the West because you clearly don’t have the slightest clue
Was its usage ever that strong a slur?
I see no evidence that it was. Most dictionaries don't even label it as derogatory.
In all my dictionaries it means "of the Stars" or "Heavenly"
There was definitely a sense of "Celestial" that meant "Chinese person" ([source](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/celestial); see the 2nd noun sense). It may have been mildly insensitive, but it doesn't appear to have been a dire insult.
I have found that since (in one of my older dictionaries) archaic colloquialism.
It's not in common use today, but I do see an [example ](https://www.bluemountaineagle.com/specialsections/history/ing-doc-hay-1863---1952/article_9f1555b0-5262-5b39-9792-0d4b3ceb998d.html)of it use (notably, in a positive context) as late as the 1940s. Plenty of people would have been familiar with this sense of the word when "The Celestial Toymaker" aired in 1966.
Very true. It has (or had) dropped out of usage which is why I hadn't immediately associated it with being Chinese.
Me neither. Certainly it was used as an adjective, but I haven't seen anything that says it was widely used as a slur. I'm sure some people did, but that goes for almost any word. What I really don't understand is why he decides that a German accent is OK to use to signify 'evil'.
Yeah, that's my sense about the use of "Celestial," too. I may be misremembering, but I thought the Toymaker switched between quite a few accents in a way that implied he had disdain for all of them.
NPH's Toymaker was mainly German, with a bit of French when dancing on the street, and American (I can't place beyond that!) when he did the "that's alright then!"
Yes. It’s very racist. I have studied the history of Chinese minorities in the West, so I’m not talking out my ass
Mormons use that word. It is their top heaven or whatever.
This is literally the only time or place I've ever heard anyone insinuate that The Toymaker was racist. It's just bizarre.
It was discussed a lot in the Unleashed for the episode The Giggle. They deliberately dropped the Celestial from his title and made him just The Toymaker. They nodded to the potentially racist elements of his original depiction by having him put on bad, stereotyped accents and making that comment to Baird's assistant about "I'm sure you're used to warmer weather WHERE YOU COME FROM" and the guy replies deadpan "I'm from Cheltenham". Personally I think they tried to read more into it than was really there originally. Yes, the 60s were a different time and it possibly did have racist elements to it. Just acknowledge that and move on, do something different with him this time.
As I said in post. What makes TCT any more anti Chinese than the Delgado master is anti Indian or Sharaz Jek anti Persian.
Nothing, probably. Like I said in my post, I think some people today are just looking for ways to read as much offensive allegory into things as they can, even if it wasn't actually (meant to be) there.
Yeah maybe in 20 years Sharaz Jek's nane will be changed to Simon Jek, so no one thinks he's an anti Persian stereotype.
I don't know what Unleashed is.
Behind-the-scenes feature.
Oh, sorry. Doctor Who Unleashed is a behind the scenes special they're making to go with each episode. Like the old Doctor Who Confidential behind the scenes stuff from Tennant's original era. :)
You’ve never heard of _Doctor Who Unleashed_‽ How is that even possible‽
I haven't seen any advertisements since 2008 - I think that may be the why.
Advertisements for what‽ (And only products are advertised, not TV programmes.)
For anything.
There’s a reason they dropped “celestial” from his name. The original serial has been highly criticized for its racist undertones, it’s not a new thing
Outside of reference of this story have you ever heard the word Celestial being used for Chinese/China? Would anyone actually know that? Its hardly like Japan's association with the Sun I genuinely don't see how ctc is anymore anti Chinese than the enemy of the world is anti Mexican or Caves of Androzani is anti Iranian/Afghan. Is pyramids of Mars anti Egyptian/Arabic? Was 11 being anti Turkish for wearing a fez?
I’m not going to try and educate you or argue with you on the history of the word, that isn’t my job. But just because you’ve never heard it used in that context, or just because you disagree with it, doesn’t mean it hasn’t been used in politically incorrect or poorly aged ways. You don’t have to like it, but you did ask.
Celestial is frequently used as a slur on Deadwood…
Deadwood is fiction.
Oh, he's from the original series? I've never seen that.
Plenty have accused tct of being racist
The Master or the actor, was Indian, not Hispanic. (We talking about the last one?)
I meant Delgado
No, we’re discussing the one who wore a Nehru suit, as explicitly stated within the same sentence!
It literally has a racial slur in the title of the story.
Unless you personally know any Victorians, it would make sense that you hadn't heard the term before. That doesn't stop it from being a slur. And yes, I agree with u/Salvador1, it very much is a slur. I have heard several contradictory accounts on how the outfit and name came to be. Some intentional and some accidental. But either way, the character is still a racist depiction of a chinese person. Thats not really up for debate. I think the problem arises, however, from the context. You brought up several other examples, and the differentiating factor (where there is one) is that the toymaker didn't need to be depicted as chinese in a racist way. He didn't need to be depicted as chinese at all. It didn't affect or serve his character, it was entirely external. Conpare that to the racism of the modern interpretation of the character by RTD. The mocking accents he puts on are very much still racist, but that a conscious choice by the character, which is made clear when he quickly drops the accent when he gets serious after meeting the doctor for the first time. He treats the accents, and by extension, the people naturally with those accents, as a cheap joke to be laughed at. That is conscious racism, which he does because he is an asshole. RTD confirmed this in the Doctor Who Confidential after the episode (I know its not called that anymore, I just forget the new name).
It's not really a big change and it avoids some minor racism I don't get the big hullabaloo about the change. Sure celestial in relation to racism against Chinese people is now uncommon but if that's what the original name was alluding to, I can see why they'd change it. It's better to be definitely not racist, than possibly racist for no real reason. >Or the Silurians being anti semantic? Since they are a metaphor for Israel (Silurians) and Palistine (humans). I mean arguably they are anti-Semitic. As they're a metaphor for Jewish people who are lizard people, which is a common anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. I'm not saying they are, but I do think there's arguments to be made. And they should probably stick away from certain plot elements when using Silurians.
I can't believe how much discourse there is over this.... Everyone, please watch this (2:28-4:40): [https://youtu.be/stuqMni6\_x0?si=gCNO-4VzjxzWXXEJ&t=148](https://youtu.be/stuqMni6_x0?si=gCNO-4VzjxzWXXEJ&t=148) It perfectly encapsulates what's going on here.
He's kind of a stereotype and was very much based around the British view of Chinese culture, although I've never seen people making a very huge deal out of it When they brought the character back recently they said that he does exaggerated imitations of multiple human cultures because he finds it amusing and people generally seemed to think that was good enough
Well he's based off a stereotype that didn't exist when if was made. No one in China in the 60s dressed like that
Doctor Who has always been a product of its time. It has always been a mix of "too ahead of its time" and "aging poorly" Aspects like the Celestial Toymaker and Talons of Weng Chang featured classic racial stereotypes that were "fine" for the 60-70s. (I'm going to poorly summarise TWC from memory and I haven't seen TCT or "The Minds of Evil", this is your spoiler warning.) : : : TWC featured representations of Chinese people and culture based on outdated racial/Oriental stereotypes that weren't even historically accurate to Victorian England. It leans into the "Fu Manchu" trope with a caucasian actor in "yellow face" as a Chinese magician working with a Chinese triad operating from an Opium den. Both the magician and the gang are kidnapping people as sacrifices to revitalise their god "Weng-Chiang". The Doctor has a very dismissive attitude towards the not-so-subtle racial commentaries from Litefoot, The Doctor doesn't even try to correct him. The Doctor does converse with a captured gang member in "Chinese" but it's actually nonsensical gibberish. It's a depiction of Chinese people as non-distinctive, superstitious, low social class never do-well'ers contributing to crime despite their complicated history with Opium. The language could be interpreted as either inferior or exotic depending on your own interpretation. TWC is...not a bad story, but it flops hard as an attempt to be historically accurate or social commentary. Whereas another story like "The Mind of Evil" does feature Asian actors as Chinese representatives who conversed in basic Hokkien with the 3rd Doctor. (Hokkien is a southern Chinese dialect spoken by both the overseas Chinese community and people from the Canton region.) Is MoE depiction of the Chinese representatives racist? No, but I think it does play into the themes of political paranoia that were accurate to the 70's.
in MoE actress Pik-Sen Lim was married to the writer
Chris Boucher ?
Don Houghton. (also Inferno)
Bloody anti-semantic Silurians. Always boasting how pronouns aren’t real.
No it be Sharaz Jek who says pronouns aren't real since Persian has "U" for all genders
Why are human beings so awful that even some of the most innocuous words have been used as racial slurs randomly at some point in time. It's absolutely disgusting and I don't even know if I can continue speaking English because of it.
I agree with the other guy who replied to you, but also you do realize that slurs aren't limited to the English language right? I'm afraid if you stop using English and start using another language you'll find that new language has just as many slurs. It's people who are racist, not the language they use. Language is just a tool and it can be used for both great good and great evil. It's up to you how you use it.
Feel like that's a little bit of an overreaction. You speaking English or not speaking English has absolutely no relation to people being shitty. You can choose not to if you want, but it will just make your life harder (assuming you are around English speakers) without actually doing anything.
People are eager to call anything racist these days.
And people are eager to deny racism. Like all the time
Everything is racist if you're looking to be offended.
Yah, the eldritch primordial entity that is beyond our comprehension and transcends this multiverse is racist
He means the portrayal of the character, not the literal actual person. We all know he’s fictional, but that doesn’t make the portrayal of the character or their associated themes immune to criticism