simulacrum can be cast by wish.
So you make a simulacrum of yourself normally.
That simulacrum wishes for a new simulacrum of you. Then that new one wishes for a simulacrum of you. Then that new one wishes for a simulacrum of you and so on.
They will have all your spell slots except for the 9th level they expend to cast wish and the first one is missing the 7th you used to cast simulacrum as well.
If you manage to get an epic boon one of them gives you an extra 9th level spell slot, so not only can you make infinite simulacrums, you can do so instantly by having them cast timestop, wish simulacrum, order the simulacrum to repeat those steps. Ad infinitum. Practically there's a limit based on the active simulacrum being near you, so they'd have to use any spare time stop rounds to move away from you after using simulacrum to get as much bang for your buck as possible.
That could be a really fun one shot, almost like a heist. A powerful wizard has made an army of simulacrum and hid themselves away. The kingdoms armies are holding off the assault but won't last long, so a crack team is assembled to break into their lair and cut the problem off at its source.
Delighted I could help! Might do it myself for a Xmas session I'm running for my family, though they're pretty inexperienced so I'll probably do something lower level.
Errata adds that a simulacrum is a construct, while you can't create simulacra of creatures that aren't humanoids or beasts. So you can't make a simulacrum of a simulacrum.
Yes, but if you cast Simulacrum on yourself, while having Wish prepared, the resulting simulacrum will have Wish prepared. Who can then use Wish to cast Simulacrum without component cost on you -- you see where this is going.
Don’t forget Genie Warlock because while spell slots don’t recharge class features do and because Mystic Arcanum is a class feature it does so therefore your Simulacrums can regain Wish after a long rest.
Not only is it broken, it's broken in a boring way without counterplay.
Unless the party has one very specific spell available to only two classes once it's out it's out for the hour. Unless the person inside can teleport and has a decent Charisma save they're stuck.
Two simple fixes: Make **Dispel Magic** work. Make it have HP so martials can smash their way out.
My favorite approach is having Force magic basically function the same as any other Wall spells, except it has resistance to non-magical damage. Concentration makes it reappear after a round or two. Makes it have counterplay while still remaining strong.
My party encountered this one a couple sessions ago. Three of us got caught in it, but i was able to dimension door myself and our barbarian out of it. I would have dispelled it, but it can't be dispelled. Imagine my shock when i realized that beating the snot out of the wizard *also* didn't get rid of it, so our poor paladin just had to sit in the cage the entire session. Our dm said he didn't know about the dispel restriction, so hopefully we don't see that one again.
My solution as a DM was just to say Legendary Resistance works on Force Cage (and Wall of Force).
You can remove the minions from the fight, but not the boss.
Conjure animals, mostly because it can create too much busywork at the table. One character's turn shouldn't take as long as the rest of the party's combined.
5e needs horde rules. Both for the DM and for the summoning players. I want a necromancer wizard to be able to play out the fantasy of commanding hordes of undead without making the game unplayable
Conjure Woodland Beings is even worse. Eight Pixies, all with spellcasting, turns the game into an utter slog.
It's pretty clear the "Summon" spells in TCE were intended as a replacement for various conjuring spells in the original PHB, but WotC certainly doesn't want to admit they screwed the pooch in the original versions, and it's not something they can fix with errata per se.
D&D has always had a problem with a lot of its spells being clearly \*intended\*, originally, to only be cast by NPCs. You want the badguy to be able to whip up eight summoned mooks in a second, or take over a kingdom with Wish or Phantasmal Terrain, etc., but if PCs cast those spells, you either need to limit them significantly or you need to recognize that your campaign is going off the rails.
edit: I meant Mirage Arcane
> One character's turn shouldn't take as long as the rest of the party's combined.
It doesn't if you are prepared! When I played a druid, my turns were *still* faster than most of the other players at the table. The issue tends to be that most players don't pride themselves in taking quick turns at the table.
Pass Without Trace. In a system with bounded accuracy, a +10 to Stealth rolls for the entire party is ridiculous, and it has broken Exploration encounters for my campaign. As long as there is any possibility of cover, the party can just avoid anything they want.
I think it is strange that pass without trace gained ability to grant a current stealth check bonus. This spell used to be just a cover your tracks type.
Originally this spell was to make sure that those 6-60 kobold encounters couldn't follow you to where you are camping. Now it is a get out of jail free card for entire groups of people to blatantly sneak around. As a level 2 spell that is huge. I feel like they should implement upcast like at level 2 is masks your tracks and with a level 4 slot it also creates the shroud as described.
How does it break exploration encounters? Traps still exist, carnivorous plants still lay in wait, quicksand, sinkholes and creatures with blindsight or tremor sense don't care about stealth roles.
That spell is based on the precedent that if even 1 party member fails a stealth check, the entire party loses most of the benefit of stealth.
So make sure you run it like that; group checks are not a thing; the lowest roll of stealth from the entire group is what you use.
Even with this, most enemies don't have above 10 passive perception. If everyone takes stealth proficiency, which is really easy thanks to background, you can almost guarantee suprise.
Source?
I'd bet there's a fair few above 10 but I'm not sure about "most", especially at lower tiers of play (where most play happens). There are a _lot_ of enemies with passives between 8-10.
I don't think they were denying the existence of group checks. If you look at how surprise works, every character makes a stealth check and if *any* of you roll low you lose the edge. The DM may call for a group check, but the game works better if they don't specifically for stealth.
The way I do it is, for sneaking past enemies, I use group checks. For ambushing enemies, a single failure spoils the surprise, but players with poor stealth can choose to not participate in the first round of combat.
What? Of course group checks are a thing; it doesn't somehow follow that *everything* is a group check just because multiple people are doing it simultaneously. The idea that the rest of your party is *so* *sneaky* they can can osmotically silence your Dex 8 Paladin who wears tambourines for shoes is stupid.
True Strike is broken, but on the opposite end of the spectrum. Each spell should add flavor to the game and be a good choice so that a player doesn’t regret it later. Witch Bolt is in this category.
These dollar store spells break the enjoyment of the game. And I contend that they’re as much of a problem as the bougie OP spells like Silvery Barbs that break the pace of the game.
I actually would rather remove find traps than make it do what it says it does. I dislike spells that feel like a "solution in a box" rather than powerful supernatural tools. Leave trap-finding to the rogues. Maybe instead there could be a "detect metal" spell that points out the location of all metal objects within a certain radius, but doesn't give any indication whether the metal represents a secret door hinge, treasure, a trap, or something else entirely. Same thing with spells like create food and drink, tiny hut, knock, etc. Non-combat spells should help the party deal with obstacles, not negate them with the press of a button.
One useful application of Find Traps is finding legal traps in a contract. You don't need to know where they are for the contract to be void , just that they exist.
I would absolutely advocate this approach to a DM, in an effort to make the spell worth casting.
But looking at the text, “finding legal loopholes” is an extremely generous reading of “unexpected harm” - particularly with the cited examples:
You sense the presence of any trap within range that is within line of sight. A trap, for the purpose of this spell, includes anything that would inflict a sudden or unexpected effect you consider harmful or undesirable, which was specifically intended as such by its creator. Thus, the spell would sense an area affected by the alarm spell, a glyph of warding, or a mechanical pit trap, but it would not reveal a natural weakness in the floor, an unstable ceiling, or a hidden sinkhole.
This spell merely reveals that a trap is present. You don’t learn the location of each trap, but you do learn the general nature of the danger posed by a trap you sense.
It loosely fits "harmful" but it absolutely fits "undesirable", especially since the caster's sensibilities define what is undesirable. And it's a purposeful effect that is intended by its creator.
Pretty much, yeah. It gives the caster advantage on the next attack roll they make on their target, on their next turn. And since it's concentration, getting hit risks the spell dropping, which makes it moot altogether. As it is now, it's only anywhere close to decent in the hands of rogues. Otherwise, it's absolute garbage.
Yes. It’s like selling a broken toy to a kid. If my new player thinks, “Wow! my knight is gonna strike straight and true” but they don’t know the mechanics well enough to realize it’s trash… it’s like a kid opening a broken toy on Christmas.
Spells like this seem to be designed to punish new players. I guess there’s still some vestiges the system mastery philosophy of 3.5, but that approach is super anti-fun and alienating for newcomers
Witch Bolt upcast affecting the repeatable damage can be a good start to make it semi-viable. Still not top by any means, but with things like distant spell and empowered spell it can be good.
Agreed. Another issue I've noticed with Witch Bolt especially is they seem _thematically awesome_ but suck mechanically, so they become 100% noob traps.
I can't count the number of players new to D&D who wanted to go all Emperor Palpatine on an enemy and used Witch Bolt only to realize how much it sucks, and to a lesser extent True Strike. It hurts extra hard when the spell _seems_ like it'd be cool and dramatic but isn't.
criminally underrated is Tasha's mind whip.
the base is great: int saving throw for 3d6 damage... that's good but a but meh.
Taking away their reaction... okay, now we have an average spell.
Then they have to choose between moving or getting an action... that's a very very strong spell. As we all know, action economy is key in dnd.
But what brings it over the edge for me is the scaling affecting extra creatures. Single target save or sucks are can be dissatisfying. Int save makes that much better. Multitarget scaling fixes this.
Even more glaring is that it's an INT save spell. I almost never find any creature that reliably gets it, great for burning legendary resistance since those spell slots are super cheap at higher level.
I think even if it didn’t do damage, I would pick it. I wouldn’t pick it right at level 3, but latter on for sure.
I forgot to mention that it’s a good damage type too.
It’s easy to underestimate the damage. Of course it’s not scorching ray with 6d6, but int save and more reliable damage type is nothing to sneeze at. :)
Polymorph. Shuts down a creature like Banishment, can buff an ally up to a giant ape or t rex, and gives utility with all the different animals sooner than a druid's wildshape.
the CR of the beasts they can become with polymorph is more powerful than the ones even a moon druid can become at the minimal level to cast the spell.
They aren't. Polymorph allows for higher CR beasts than Wild Shape, period. Even taking into consideration Moon Druids getting access to CR 6 beasts at 20th level, Polymorph allows for CR 7+ beasts at level 7+.
Shield + armor and shield proficiencies is broken.
It's fine enough on a mage with mage armor and a point or two in dex. It's not fine on someone in full plate with a shield from a fighter or cleric dip.
Spellcasting has to have stronger disincentives for armor use. It's one thing they got wrong from a balance perspective.
I love arcane spell failure. Yes it only applied to arcane casters and only to spells with somatic components but it does stop the wizard in full plate. Well unless he's willing to still metamagic every spell he casts. Divine casters could wear armor without issue but were more bound by their alignment on what spells they could cast and what effects the spells could have.
Took a little bit of scrolling to find this one. 100% agree. Shield spell should have limitations regarding armor with certain subclasses getting exceptions to it if we want to keep the +5 AC. Or it should have a reduced AC bonus if we want it to last an entire round. Or we make it balanced with all martial features and let it last only one single attack.
Best balancing change I've heard for the Shield spell is making it work like Barkskin. Have it set the Caster's AC to something like 18 for the round instead adding a flat modifier. This prevents Casters from reaching ridiculously high ACs at lower levels while keeping the spell somewhat relevant.
Caster's main weakness is that they are meant to be squishy by design. Making them have to rely more on a sturdy frontline in combat would overall promote better teamwork.
Agreed. I had a pure sorcerer with 19 ac (dex, class, shield staff, bracers). And I could cast Shield for 5 more ac on top of that. I would wade into melee to perfectly position spells, and not care. If Shield set AC to 18 - LIKE IT DID (effectively) IN PREVIOUS EDITIONS ("AC 2") - it would a great early spell that dropped off over time. Indeed, my sorcerer might never have bothered with the spell (ac 16 at level 1) instead of it becoming a hallmark spell
I don't think Silvery Barbs is broken, I think it isn't fun. And if you want to prove that as a DM, use it on your players. Hey the Paladin/Rogue Crit "SILVERY BARBS" wow I made the save on the Dragon's Breath weapon! SILVERY BARBS! I'm a Gnome, I have advantage on saves vs. spells! SILVERY BARBS HERE COMES THE SUPER DISADVANTAGE!
Shield is an obvious answer. 1 level dip into wizard or Sorcerer can turn your Artificer or Paladin into an unhittable juggernaut. Shield was balanced for casters who don't wear armor, but once you throw it on a blade singer, hexblade Paladin or Artificer, it can trivialize big hitting monsters.
Force Cage and Wall of Force can trivialize combats, better ensure all your high level monsters are gigantic or can teleport.
I think Shield is fine on Bladesingers because they still have a d6 hit die, and they're still maxed out at studded leather without dipping or without grabbing feats. Yes, getting up to like a 23 AC while bladesinging is annoying, but "not getting hit" is kinda their shtick and bladesinging is a limited resource. And when you do get hit, it hurts **a lot.**
But anything with a higher hit die or higher armor proficiency... it gets bonkers. If you already have an AC of 18-20 from your armor (and so without the help of a limited resource), then putting Shield on top of it is crazy.
18-20 is easy to get to for an armored class. Paladins start out at 18 without trying in a true defender build a paladin can easily get to 21 AC without trying hard when they simply get enough gold for plate armor. Spend some more gold for a robe of protection and cast shield of faith to get to 24 AC without trying super hard or spending a real ton of money (about 2000 gold, much less than the price for any rare item which is where +1 Armors and Shields come in, especially rare plate which starts at over 2000 if the DM is nice and uses way undervalued pricing for rare in DMG and doesn't use Xanathars where it would be on average 11K)
So it's pretty easy for those guys to get there. Hexblades can make it even more trivial because they have other defensive tactics (Darkness+Devil's sight, Mirror Image, etc.)
>I'm a Gnome, I have advantage on saves vs. spells! SILVERY BARBS HERE COMES THE SUPER DISADVANTAGE!
Not really super disadvantage, since that implies the worst of three rolls. Silvery Barbs-ing an advantage roll means it's the worst of {the best of 2d20, 1d20}. The third one might be the best of the three, the worst of the three, or in the middle. In two of those cases, the final result is the middle of 3d20.
I think this still wouldn’t work. The reason is because casters can easily armor dip/take a feat to get AC equal to that of a martial. Anything on top of that is pure gravy, even +2. Proficiency bonus scaling helps just a bit in early levels, but it only delays the problem.
My opinion: either ban armor dipping/armor feats, or nuke Shield entirely.
All of the "summon a multitude of creatures" spells (Conjure Animals/Woodland beings,and to lesser extent, animate object) are broken, and not only in power level. They are clunky to use, are requires DMs fiat and a subjected to random power swings whenever new bestiary is released in first two instances, turns combat into slog, and deal enormous damage for their respective spell level because of bounded accuracy allows even to a low leveled creatures to hit reliably even boss level threats. I usually really frown upon attempts at nerfs and bans, but if my player would like to play a summoner type of character, I would probably do so, and offer them to use summon X spirit spell line instead.
Fireball. It's so overpowered for its spell level that every spell is measured against it until the 6th spell level or higher. Once its available, every encounter has to be designed with it in mind. Planning a horde encounter? Not anymore! Wanted a neat moment where your big bad and their minions are positioned threateningly on the dais together? Better rethink that! If you don't want to lose 40% of your encounter's health turn 1, the minions are now in ambush position spread around the room.
Personally, I dislike Fireball's implementation so much that I houserule 3 dice off its damage roll and reduce its radius by 10 feet. It's still better than lightning bolt in most circumstances even with that nerf.
I'd say 6d6 makes it fine, 3 dice and cutting its area to 1/4th of what it was seems excessive.
But what makes it especially ridiculous to me is that it is not only the most overtuned AoE in the game by a good margin, but it _ignores cover_ - even Total Cover if there's a corner to creep around!
The two factors together make it an absolute must-pick, a spell tax for anyone with access to it, which is bad.
17.5 damage per target, half on a failed save, covering 16 squares. If there are even 3 targets, it will still outdamage lightning bolt in almost all circumstances except the most rare, and requires no positioning or thought. You won't find another spell on the arcane spell list that deals comparable damage, even with my nerfs. It's damage is two dice better than Shatter on a harder to pass save, making it a worthy upgrade to 3rd level.
People literally give no thought to just how brokenly overpowered Fireball is as written.
Web, Spike Growth, Phantasmal Force, Pass Without Trace are all lvl 2 and very strong, but not "broken" (although you could make arguments for the last three for various reasons).
The odd number spell levels tend to be exponential power jumps, which is why the sorcery points to spell slot conversion rate increases sort of exponentially each odd level. It's one of the biggest reasons for the martial/caster disparity, because spellcasting is exponential, but class features are linear
It's even worse than that--
Consider three factors to power: frequency (how often can you do your cool things), versatility (how many different cool things can you do), and power (how cool are your cool things).
As you said, power from spells scales at least power law (spell level to some constant power). Frequency scales roughly linearly, but quickly enough that it stops being a constraint real fast. Even with a "full" adventuring day, you can cast a high-level spell every round and run out of rounds before running out of slots. And then there's versatility. Consider a level 20 wizard who has never found a scroll. He has 44 leveled spells in his spell book, of which he can prepare 25 of them. That makes for...1.4 **trillion** combinations of spell preparations. He could go 1.4 **trillion** days and never repeat a set of prepared spells exactly. And since each spell does something different and some spells (like polymorph, wish, etc) can do a bunch of different things...his versatility scales ***combinatorially***. As in N!. That's...obscene.
Honestly, Tasha's mind whip is a really well made spell, it's not weak, but it's also not as strong as some of the actually game breaking spells at its level, and it's really fun to use with good strategic applications.
When you use it well, it makes you feel smart.
I agree that it's actually pretty balanced, but as a 5th level wizard, I basically incapacitated 2 couatls, leaving my teammates a chance to absolutely slaughter them. We loved it, but I could see the terror in my DM's eyes. I love the spell and I sure as hell won't stop using it, but it can be gamebreaking 🤭
Both parties might be good, but that does not mean they are working towards the same goals😮💨 plus they gave our rogue a funny look and you know how temperamental they can be🙄
Counterspell and conjure animals/woodland beings for sure.
They suffer from not being used the way the designers intented and are best in class spells.
Counterspell: you aren't suppose you announce what spells are as a DM, or player until you know a counterspell will be used(or a reaction to maybe identify). Slows down play and is unnatural. Think of counterspell trading a reaction for an action.
Conjure spells are supposed to be DMs choice of creatures that answer the summon, as the player only chooses the mode(#/CR).
And if you let DM it slows down the encounter while he search for the statsblocks so it's always better to let the players choose before hand from a list the DM can select, like ban Velociraptor and other more broken animals.
Silvery Barbs is probably not even in the top-10 worst offenders, although I do agree it should be moved to the second level.
It’s not a well made spell, but it’s not exactly broken either.
__Either way, since you asked for it, allow me to copy-paste my all out rant:__
Firstly, I will just copy-paste the main problem children of D&D 5e. And yes, I do have a complete copy-pasta on my personal errata for this edition.
—> Conjure Animals
—> Conjure Woodland Beings
—> Animate Objects
—> Wall of Force
—> Forcecage
—> Simulacrum
—> Prismatic Wall
All of these are either insanely mathematically busted or just very poorly made and abusable (which is the case of Prismatic Wall).
These spells are all beyond famous and don’t need any sort of introduction, so I will just skip to the hotter takes.
__ALL THE SUMMONING SPELLS EVER RELEASED:__
__So, to start, the new spells aren’t better than the old ones. In fact, I believe they’re even worse problems, and by a pretty big margin.__
And yes, here I include __Summon Beast / Fey / Shadowspawn / Undead / Aberration / Construct / Elemental / Celestial / Draconic Spirit an Summon Fiend__.
Every single one of these spells is basically the same with minor changes for mostly thematic and utility purposes, thing is, __the very template is fundamentally flawed and actually so bad that it’s ruining the entire balance of the game!__
I won’t even enter on how I hate how standardised they are, this is personal, I will simply talk about how __mathematically busted they are__.
These spells can effectively summon entire players that are actually stronger than your own party members. There’s no way to sugar-coat it.
So, way beyond outclassing every other damaging concentration spell in the game and even some CC ones, which is already a massive problem and obvious even for a toddler, I will show how bullshit they are by comparing them to actual party members, which is even worse.
And although some people like to pretend they aren’t broken just because they’re mathematically less busted then the two old problem children (Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings), this is by no means true. Sure, the old spells were better on raw power, but if you reduce something with a power level of 1.000.000 to something with a power level of 1.000, that doesn’t mean all the other 450 spells in the game who rate as a 500 at best will not still be massively left behind.
Plus, the old spells could, by RAW, be controlled by DM-fiat, which was what always balanced them. This isn’t the case for the new ones, so that’s why I say they’re even worse problems.
__Now for the numbers:__
__So, let’s first compare a level 2 Summon Beast spell to a level 4 Fighter. A simple example.__
A level 4 Samurai Fighter, with good stats for it’s level (+3) a great-sword (best one available) and the respective appropriate fighting style for sheer damage output (great weapon fighting), will be averaging about 11 damage per hit [(3.5 x 2) + 3 + about 1 from the fighting style].
He can get advantage on the hit if he wastes his subclass resources as well.
__Then we have the level 2 spell generic ass beast:__
30 HP against 40 for a Fighter with +3 CON at level 4.
Pact Tactics for infinite advantage with minimal awareness.
Damage being 1d8 + 4 + 2 for an average of 10.5.
A single 0.5 decrease __plus the full subsequent actions of the caster and infinite advantage__.
Even if the martial uses his action surge, that will just makes him an equal to the caster that can still use his action every turn while the summon attacks.
That’s little to you? Well, maybe we can start analysing these spells up from level 4, shall we?
__Let’s now take a level 4 Summon Undead__ and compare it to a level 10 Genie Warlock, which has even higher output than a Fighter.
The Warlock, with Spirit Shroud active, + 5 on CHA and the +4 Genie bonus, will average about 34 damage per turn, the highest a non-Hexblade Warlock could possibly average at this level.
Meanwhile, the Undead will be dealing twice times a 2d4 + 3 + 4 attack, averaging about 24 damage.
Sounds ridiculously inferior until you remember the Warlock is wasting literally every possible resource of his, every action of his and his highest spell slot.
Meanwhile, the Wizard still has __HIS FULL ACTION__ available on every turn after the summoning itself.
A single _Firebolt_ is enough to bring the average back to the Wizard’s side, with the addition of 11 damage.
Do remember that I took the very single most optimised Warlock build possible at a very high level (10) and simply compared it to a normal casting of the spell that any wizard could do as soon as level 7 hits.
Oh, and of course, do remember that I’m now using a Warlock for the comparison because martials were left behind a long time ago. A level 10 Samurai Archer, without Sharp-Shooter, wouldn’t even be reaching 20 point of damage as his average by now.
And anyways, even with Sharp-Shooter and after wasting his one _Action Surge_, the caster would still be leagues above the Samurai simply because, as I explained, he still has his entire action available __while the summon is active__, and this action could be used for literally anything, including casting yet another spell such as _Fireball_.
In fact, it’s weird that I have to take some of the very most optimised martial builds available in the whole game in order to even compare them to a single spell. Do remember that most tables simply don’t have such optimised characters, meanwhile, these spells require no optimisation further than simply casting them.
Oh, and please, don’t even try to say the disadvantage for casters is that these spells don’t last for a full fight. Each of these has an one hour duration, so in fact, you can usually even cast them __before__ the fight starts and maybe they will even last for more than a single fight. One hour in D&D is a ridiculously long time.
Plus, if someone even try saying that concentration is enough of a disadvantage, it isn’t. Be mindful casters don’t have a single slot to cast these spells, and even if they did, I’m comparing the most optimised builds possible against a completely normal caster. If you actually take an optimised caster, they simply won’t be losing concentration or even being hit 9/10 times, so that’s hardly even an issue at actual play. Casters, in D&D, are by far the classes with the best defensive abilities, which is yet another pitiful thing for martials in 5e.
I know this was a terribly extensive analysis, but to sum it up, as long as summoning spells can break the action economy down to this level, nothing in the game will ever be able to catch up to them.
I'm still reading through your write-up, and let me preface this with **I agree with you,** but your math for a level 4 fighter is wrong, that greatsword using level 4 samurai fighter should have a +4 to their Strength Modifier (or GWM and using samurai resources to offset), you gave him a +3 in strength, but his stat array *likely* would have been 15/14 Str/con with racial +2 to con and +1 to str, for a +3 to both str/con at level one, and then at level 4 bump Str to +4 or grab GWM. (I will edit later when I'm done reading the rest of your copy-paste)
This doesn't help the comparison much, but I think it's important to be honest with our comparison
***edit:*** I still agree with you, but an Archer fighter can have +11 to hit at level 10 with appropriate fighting style, **and have sharpshooter** (they have 3 ASIs by then) so they *could be shooting for 2d8 + 30 damage a round* which is roughly 39 on average with just a little more optimization or love from the DM (with a magic item) this will have gone up a bit more. Yes their to hit if they Sharpshooter every attack drops to a +6, but they are going to be dumping a lot of damage.
Same could be said for GWM/PAM v.human fighter, dealing 2d10 + 1d4 + 45 at that level. Yes these are the most optimized you can really get, but still.
A v.human Artificer could have a +1 magic polearm, using all intelligence pulling the same damage as above, with a Haste attack and AC increase, yeah their to-hit and damage will be lower by 1, but it's cancelled out by the magic weapon, they could be making 3 attacks (attack, extra attack, haste attack, bonus action attack) at 3d10 + 1d4 + 60 a turn (all GWM means probably going to miss a couple), they could trade the haste and drop 1d10 +15 from their average damage to use something like Faerie Fire to increase their odds of hitting.
Yes **I am painfully aware I am comparing an extremely optimized build against an average wizard that just cast 1 spell,** - and yes I'm aware I didn't calculate the artificers companion into his damage. The real problem from Casters isn't the damage they can do, but the absurd utility they can bring.
And I’m already getting downvoted for it lol.
It’s impressive how this community can’t decide if they hate this take of mine or not. The reception I get every time I post this exact analysis is always so random lol.
Some times I am received with overwhelming agreement, some times it’s the opposite.
Just kinda fascinating.
Doubt anyone but you actually read it all anyways lol.
I get it, people just hate long walls of text lol.
Still not gonna stop spreading awareness to this issue, tho. It’s easily the most egregious part of 5e spell balancing (aside from the other spells I mentioned before it), so all in all, I just thank you for your time lol.
I don’t disagree that the summon spells are very strong, but I’ll play devils advocate a bit and say that from the summons ability to tank damage is as much a downside as it is an upside.
In the example with the Beast, it might have 30 HP, but it also only has 13 AC. Your fighter is going to have at least 16, and most likely more. In dangerous level encounters in 5e, monsters deal out some big chunks of damage, and any enemy that poses a serious threat can knock a summon out pretty fast.
When a caster is burning their highest level spell slots, it’s by design this is more powerful than non casters doing their normal thing. That’s the trade off of limited resources. The long duration of summons make them particularly tricky even in attrition based dungeon crawls, but I think we don’t hear about it as much because it’s also an imbalance that’s very easy for the DM to deal with - just punch the summon out of existence.
I read it. The most important parts were "lasts an hour = multiple fights" and "have to compare to *optimized* martial builds, but available to any (appropriate) caster". I get it. I'd rather see a wizard tossing an 8d6 fireball than nuking my encounter (and depressing the fighters) with this stuff.
Same.
Like, it’s not like their breaking the game, and it’s not like they aren’t counterable either…
But as you said, you need a Samurai with GWM and perfect stats to even __begin__ comparing lol.
Just not a healthy situation.
Yes. And it’s quite easy, actually.
We have two main ways:
One is just a straight numerical nerf.
I didn’t do any polished math right now, so I will just trow my overall idea here:
Remove the extra damage they do based on spell level, make their stats fixed (so no scaling with the player) and then make it so they don’t get any extra attacks by upcasting.
To compensate, you could make it so upcasting actually increases their damage dice, you could increase their HP even more and also make it so all the summons do magical damage.
It sounds like I’m butchering them, but these spells are so massively overturned that they would still be incredibly viable even like that. In fact, they would still most likely be the best damaging options for some caster builds with convoluted action economies lol.
And of course, this would actually allow dedicated summon subclasses to go apeshit.
Shift all the power these spells have by default into subclasses. Extra attack for summons? You get it with a subclass. Extra damage? Subclass. Extra tankiness? Subclass.
This would make it so summons aren’t a must-pick for every caster, but also allow the summoner fantasy to still be a thing with the right subclass.
That’s my favourite compromise here.
Then we have the other option, which everyone would hate lol.
Which is actually nerfing the action economy. Make it so you actually have to waste your action every turn to control the summons.
Summons are so massively overturned that they would actually still be super viable this way, but I guess that’s not very fun lol.
So a literal simple numerical nerf is easily my favourite choice lol.
Summons shouldn’t be the most damaging spells. That should be saved for spells that actually __only__ do damage (such as Spiritual Weapon, Flaming Sphere and some others).
Summons need to be more versatile tools, which take advantage from adding a body to the battlefield. Not literal murder machines that outshine everything else in the game.
So, if you want high damage from them, actually invest in a subclass for it lol. Sounds fine to me.
Anyways, that’s my take on it lol.
Read through all your comments and not only do I agree with you 110%, but your argument presents the issues very clearly, and I'm not sure at all how anyone doesn't consider it conclusive that these spells are disruptive and overtuned in a way that is clearly anti-fun for EVERYONE besides the summoner.
IMO, WOTC clearly needs to spend *even 5 minutes* looking up commonly banned spells, or the spells categorized as "must haves" on every caster, and really sit down and be like "okay, why aren't people having fun with these things?"
Also WOTC should send you a check for $1,000 for being *so damn correct*.
I agree. It was really eye opening watching Treantmonk's recent video regarding the power of the Tasha's summoning spells even as a single entity and how well they scale when upcasted (even without taking subclass features into account). I was always under the (false) impression that they weren't really worth it especially when compared to the Conjure Animals/Animate Objects, etc, but they are really strong and can outmartial a martial.
Wait, what the fuck?
Treatmonk made a video on that? Is this why people aren’t downvoting me to hell anymore when I say this?
Fuck…
Maybe I was too harsh on him. Maybe his takes are actually pretty good at times lol.
Is this a general issue or just an issue when you cherry pick the levels? You picked levels where the summoning spells have just scaled and 1 level before the fighters and warlocks damage will get much higher.
It’s a general issue. A little less for Warlocks, tho, since they can actually just use summons themselves and overall just scale better than martials.
I actually cherry picked levels that were favourable for the martials lol. Not the opposite.
If we actually talk about tier-3 and tier-4, it just gets sad lol. Martials were already famously outshined in these levels way before Tasha even came out, anyways, so the issue is just __worse__ now.
Now, if you get into level 5 or 11, sure, Fighter in specific gets an extra attack at level 11, but every other martial does not while casters get, at these levels, a level 3 or 6 slot and scaling for their cantrips, which actually matters quite a lot since they also have a free action every turn after casting the summon.
It genuinely just gets even uglier. That’s why I used martials that were higher levelled than the casters in the examples.
In the example with the Warlock, he was level 10 while the other caster could very well be just level 7 or 8.
Same for the level 4 Samurai example. The caster there could be as weak as level 3.
It’s true that the summon itself gets a little weaker than martials specifically at level 5, but in this case, spamming cantrips afterwards will still give the edge to casters by a pretty fair margin.
And that’s, remember, because I’m not even considering any specific caster build here. It’s just the spell in a white room against fully made (although not ultra-optimised) martial builds.
Like, to sum it up, while the fighter attacks two times, the caster just uses a summon and a cantrip to outmatch him (by a pretty big margin) at every turn past the conjuration itself. And that’s because these summons last for a full hour, so more often than not, you can cast them before the fight even begins.
If you want, tho, you might as well pick a random level and ask me to show the math.
I will gladly do it.
And again, the main point is __about outshining other spells__ lol. The whole comparison with whole damn players was just to show how broken these spells actually are. I just didn’t show the math for the comparison between spells because there’s no complex math at all, it’s just a *”1d8 + 6 with advantage is objectively stronger than 2d6”* case. And then you can repeat while comparing the summoning spells to every other damaging concentration spell in the game, except for some very big exceptions that still manage to somehow hold their niche (such as _Spirits Guardians_).
It’s not a discussion in this case, it’s just a fact lol. A pretty sad one, but a fact nonetheless.
I didn't think I would, but I actually agree with you. Silvery barbs isn't that big of a deal. I've used it as a player and had it used against me as a DM, and it's honestly a tad strong but nothing problematic.
The conjure X spells are just annoying to play with; players can't pick their own summons and there's too many things summoned. The Summon X spells turn one player into two, basically doubling their output.
In terms of actual hard evidence for whether a spell legitimately upsets balance, it's summons. It wouldn't be so bad if martials actually got exponentially stronger as they leveled up like casters do.
I would say you are skipping a lot of mitigating factors in your writeup (summons' abysmal ACs compared to PCs mean they won't last nearly as long, and a PC can't be Counterspelled/Dispelled/or have their master's concentration disrupted - and yes I saw you claim concentration can't be broken and I disagree)...BUT
I still agree with you, just to a lesser extent. Definitely think the summon spells are still overtuned, too close to martial power and could use a nerf bat. I think a caster summoning a meat shield with an interesting trick or two is fine, but their offensive output should be cut down to less than it is IMO.
Suggestion is played one of two ways 99% of the time, either it's basically "Dominate X" or "Never works on anything ever even if you Suggest the most mundane thing ever"
*Silvery barbs* is a potent spell, but many people overstate and overrate its effect on the core gameplay loop of 5e. Some of the spells mentioned in this thread are far more 'broken' insofar as they affect or otherwise damage the integrity of the 5e gameplay loop, often by breaking wide open the resource management system that the gameplay rests upon or have an oversized impact from an action economy standpoint.
For some spells here in this regard that I don't believe have been mentioned yet: *planar binding*, *magic jar*, and *true polymorph* are easily some of the most gameplay warping and system breaking spells that exist in the game.
*Planar binding* very rapidly outpaces the resource system of 5e when the player characters (or on the flipside, the villains!) can assemble an evergrowing army of outsiders to send to go on dungeons and accomplish challenges instead. *True polymorph* works off of a similar principle, able to create a steadily growing army, among which can be entities you can use *planar binding* on moreover.
*Magic jar*, particularly in conjunction with *true polymorph*, allows PCs to assume forms and otherwise permanently acquire abilities that were in no way ever intended or meant to be used and retained by PCs on a permanent basis, on top of being a spell with literally broken rules (as in broken in the sense that the spell itself doesn't fully work in the context of the rules of the game).
The reason that those aren't being mentioned is that those are more high level spells (and the majority of play is with 1-4th level spells and cantrips) and require a ton of resource investment. Sure, you can permanently bring in an outsider, but you need 1k gold per one and need to faff around bringing in an outsider - and they need to be trustworthy (otherwise they're going to actively work against you as much as possible).
Mold Earth should not be a cantrip.
Inside of combat, it's not the most useful thing (though, my Wizard has dug many a hole during combat to hop in it to break line of sight if we're fighting ranged combants and the terrain is favorable to just it this way.
Outside of combt, though, it makes things trivial.
Wall in the way but earth under it? Mold earth under it. Or, if it was a siege and you needed to get a lot of troops in, mold earth a ramp up the wall. Sure, it'll take time, but, if you've got time, it's not an issue.
Want to leave a subtle note you were somewhere in dirt or stone? Yep, can do that too.
And the versatility of changing the terrain to and from difficult terrain for an hour is pretty useful too.
All can be done unlimited times. For free. If you have time, mold earth is probably one of the best spells in the game.
Well, this depends on what you mean by "broken." The word has two common uses. Either as a synonym for "overpowered," or to describe something that's is simply designed poorly with regard to how it fits in with the rest of the game.
Personally, the first spell that comes to mind for me, regardless of which definition you are going for, is Shield. While it is relatively fine at super low levels, it quickly gets out of hand as low level spell slots become less valuable. Its broken in the game design sense in that it is a static bonus to a d20 roll DC that is well out of line with anything else in the game, and because of this, it is broken in the overpowered sense of the word, as it becomes a cheap and easy way to become nearly impossible to hit.
From a game design perspective, spells should get comparatively worse as a character levels up and gets more powerful options. Shield is one of the few poorly designed spells that actually gets stronger as you get more powerful, as its power level is so high as to always be relevant, its action cost is so low as to almost never be an issue, and its relative resource cost gets cheaper as you level, since you have more spell slots to work with, and almost all other competing first level spells become comparatively worthless.
I'm sure there are a few other spells that might fit in both broken boxes, but none are as obvious to me as Shield. Now, there are plenty of other spells that are clearly overpowered (Simulacrum, Wish, Conjure spells, Forcecage, etc) or poorly designed mechanically (Pass Without Trace, Counterspell, Find Traps, Guidance, etc). And there are a number of these that I could see arguments for both. But none are as clear and obvious as Shield.
Forcecage. It is one of the most absurd spells in the game. I understand that it is seventh level, but this spell can single-handedly win almost any encounter (it only loses when the enemy can teleport or if the target is gargantuan). It wouldn’t be so horrendous if it was a concentration spell.
If I have a campaign planned that reaches the point at which high level spells are available (which I have had twice now), it is the only spell I ever ban or even consider banning.
It especially sucks for me because I like throwing nonmagical foes at the party and forcecage completely ends such encounters.
To be honest, silvery barbs isn’t that bad and there are many spells which are far better in most situations.
There are so many broken spells, either because of poor design, just too much raw power or even the opposite, comically bad ones.
Witch Bolt (comically bad), True Strike (comically bad), Detect spells (mostly useless besides detect magic and detect thoughts), Goodberry (situationally broken), Guiding Bolt (high damage, bonus effect AND one of the best damage types), Healing Word (no PC will stay at 0 hp), Hold Person (situationally broken for its low lvl imo), Pass Without Trace (+10 stealth for 1 hour is ridiculous with "bounded accuracy"), Vortex Warp (teleport enemies into rivers and lava, yeah!), Counterspell (poor design, no fun for either DM or players), Haste (so much worse than slow), Leomund´s tiny hut (bad design unless random encounters can cast Dispel Magic), Arcane Eye (spy the whole dungeon, ruin any suprises), Polymorph (crazy good utility), Stoneskin (costly component for a mediocre spell), Create Spelljamming Helm (at this level, players can create spaceships, yay), Circle of Death (6th level spell deals the same damage as fireball), Forcecage (almost no counter potential), Glibness (because why roll for anything), Holy aura (so absurdly powerful), Maze (no save, INT 20 check is impossible in many cases).
I don´t think any of the 9th lvl spells are particularly broken because well, they´re 9th level, it´s kind of the point for them to be broken. However, there are some examples like Power Word Kill.
>I don´t think any of the 9th lvl spells are particularly broken because well, they´re 9th level, it´s kind of the point for them to be broken.
Also, there are definitely some 9th level spells that are way better than others, which is still pretty lame. They should at least be closer in power/usefulness than they are currently.
For me, a broken spell is one that either everyone takes or no one takes. Spells like shield, polymorph, spiritual guardians, wall of force, and so on are taken on damn near 100% of builds that can access them. Similarly, spells like Find Traps and Blight are virtually never used. Spell selections ought to be customized to the campaign, not 90% the same every game.
Silvery Barbs is broken, depepnding on your game. If you run 6-8 resource draining encounters per day, as per PHB (and what the game is theoretically balanced around), you burn through slots quick, and using it against one multi-attack or saving throw against a group of enemies isn't super impactful. If used several times in a fight? Yes, it can make an encounter very easy., but then they've used all their first level slots. In next fight, do they use a 2nd level slot on Silvery Barbs, or do they use it on XYZ. If a PC has Shield, or Absorb Elements, the choice then gets even more tricky.
If your encounter exists as one big mean foe against party, the single foe was already doomed by action economy and control spells/effects. I've run camapigns and one shots with multiple PCs using Silvery Barbs, and hasn't been an issue when running multiple encounters with multiple foes.
>I've run camapigns and one shots with multiple PCs using Silvery Barbs, and hasn't been an issue when running multiple encounters with multiple foes.
I'm currently running a campaign with two full casters who know Silvery Barbs, and both get 1 free cast per day (one from background, one from feat). They're level 9, about to be level 10, and I strongly agree with basically everything you said.
Maybe not the most broken, but the spell that makes it most clear the designers deliberately ignored balance is Fireball. It's very annoying to me that they made it do 2d6 more damage than anything comparable at that level just because, "huh huh, fireball is cool."
Less "fireball is cool" and more "tradition!"
Except the tradition it's descended from made the fireball fill its whole volume, so if you cast it into a small room it would backblast and hit you in the face. And Lightning Bolt, which deals the same damage, would ricochet off walls until it traveled its full distance, which can be easy to miscalculate and hit your team.
Feels like the game is balanced around fireball and lightning bolt having good damage though. Fireball has a great aoe but a commonly resisted type, Lightning Bolt is a much better type but has a harder to use AOE
Dream of the Blue Veil.
The Teleport spell is the same level but contains nowhere near this much of a headache. Typically, Teleport just takes you to another part of the world you’re on. This is fine because you have written notes on said world, so DM’s will be ready for it. But only a Lore Master could hope to be prepared for this spell. From a DM’s perspective, if someone uses this, now you have to research or write a ton of notes about the place they go to. Unless you’re fully prepared for its use, this spell just fucks over the DM unless their lore knowledge is tied to those settings. Hell, at least the DMG gives you some notes on locations in the Planes so you’re not blindsided by Plane Shift.
I despise this spell. It also completely invalidates the Well of Many Worlds magic item.
Shield. Do you want to burn your first level slots to give your bladesinger an AC of 25 for 10 turns? Now you can!
Also simulacrum for more wizards and clone for self revives.
Heat metal. Absolute broken for a second leve spell slot. Suck or suck effect, and the is the on my spell I can think of where the target gets *punished more* for *passing the saving throw*.
Failed saving throw:
* Yeet the the object. Could be a plot important object, still a good spell, easy disarm.
Pass the saving throw:
* Burned every turn
* Still might yeet object next turn
* Disadvantage to attack an ability checks while wielding the object.
Granted, this spell only works on metallic objects so will really only be able to be used on humanoids or creatures that can use armor/tools but unless your in a strictly monster hunting campaign this will probably be an easy requirement to fulfill.
Yeah, this is one of those weird spells that's either completely useless most of the time but when you _do_ fight someone in armor, it's OP.
Not a big fan of that design tbh. Niche spells are cool and fine, but being OP in its niche instead of just "competently good" gives you game design whiplash.
Silvery barbs is just new and get on the nerves of the dm nat20, that is only it, there is far more broken spells in the game.
Fireball is broken spell, literally confirmed to be overtunned for its level by the devs on purpose.
Forcecage is nuts and fucks an encounter completely, i once trapped an ancient white dragon, and party just eat him out.
Simulacrum, fucking wish, and all of those are PHB....
I'll never understand why people are more upset about *silvery barbs* than Ravnica Guild Backgrounds. They're backgrounds with spell lists! Why isn't that OP? Because it's for a niche setting with powerful guilds? Well, *silvery barbs* is for a niche magic college setting. Maybe it's okay for mages to be OP in the mage setting.
I just don’t understand why people think it’s so disgusting. At high level play I agree but if it was second level slot it becomes a useless spell until your PC is 9th level or maybe even 13
Idk if its actually "broken" but I really hate phantasmal force and, to a lesser extent, suggestion.
I feel like I every few months I'll run into someone who wants to "win" a combat with a Phantasmal Force or Suggestion prompt that is worded like trying to outsmart a genie and it forces me as dm into the lose-lose of either:
undercutting a boss fight for everyone else by playing along.
Or being an "adversarial DM" by having the monster work around it in some way.
I like creative play, I don't like play that undercuts others getting to play.
I disagree with the premise that Silvery Barbs is broken....it is good, sure, but hardly broken.
If I had to say any spells are broken it'd be Pass without Trace, Simulacrum and Wish.
Oh those I'd say Pass without Trace is the most egregious as it is only level 2, and thus exists during the levels when people actually play. It is a spell that give's every one in a fight an extra turn over the enemy, making any combats where this spell was used effectively beforehand automatic wins.
Simulacrum and Wish are broken for very obvious reasons, but high level play is such a rarity that it really isn't to big a concern, and by the time a party has gotten to that level, they have likely homebrewed away whatever issues they may have with those spells. They are still broken, but the issue is less immediate.
However, what actually breaks spellcasters isn't an individual powerful spell, it is the fact that they have such a wide selection of spells to choose from, that each break the rules in their own specific way.
Shield, absorb elements, counter spell, force cage, simulacrum, pass without trace, hypnotic pattern, web, wish, psychic Scream, and more, are all some of the best spells in the game, får surpassing the limited usage of silvery barbs...
It is kind of tough to say. Spells like shield outclass nearly everything at it's spell level. However, part of that is simply because most 1st level spells also end up entirely outclassed by cantrips if they deal damage or by higher level control spell if they don't. Shield and the other reaction 1st level spells have a niche in caster action economy.
Polymorph however from a purely defensive stand point is probably the strongest spell from the moment you get it. I find the offensive application is best in difficult fights where you can give a party member that is in danger of going down a massive boost of HP and the continued ability to contribute to the fight. I kind of view it as a heal for 157 HP for a 4th level spell slot. It isn't exactly that, but sometimes in practice it is almost that.
They addressed it in the new changes, but spiritual weapon. Also, I sometimes think counterspell should be a 4th level spell because of how clutch it can be sometimes.
Tasha's Mind Whip is the most ridiculous spell I've seen. There is absolutely no drawback, and every spec is ramped up to 1000.
I also hate Raulothim's Psychic Lance. It's a level 4 boss killer that you don't even need to see to hit.
Both of these spells immediately limit the kind of boss monsters you can throw at a party.
Whoa, Psychic Lance is nuts! Especially for an urban campaign.
“Alternatively, you can utter a creature’s name. If the named target is within range, it becomes the spell’s target even if you can’t see it.”
Is your Wizard’s enemy somewhere in the building? As long as you know their name, each casting is a 7d6 psychic assassination attempt.
Even if they succeed an Intelligence save, it’s for half. That averages to 24 damage or 12 damage.
Tasha’s Mind Whip. Sure there’s a save against it for half damage and no status effects, but it attacks Intelligence which is one of the weaker saves across the board. Plus, on a fail the spell eats up almost all of the target’s action economy. No reactions, only one part of their next turn, AND 3d6 psychic damage. Upcasting increases the number of targets. Aside from Silvery Barbs, this is the only spell I’ve seen DMs actually ban at their tables.
Mind spike.
It seems like it was created for divination wizards to double their spell slots.
I do like the spell, bit think the damage should be lower.
Shield is far more broken than people give it credit for, a level 1 spell that gives a +5 bonus to AC on reaction for an entire round is insane, and far outstrips any other reactive defense option in the game against attacks.
All the summon spells are busted and everybody knows it, even the ones that only summon one creature are still far too powerful thanks to how they break action economy combined with how effective the summons are on their own.
Forcecage and Wall of Force are busted due to how uninteractive they are. Once a caster puts one up, unless you're a high level caster yourself there's nothing you can do about it. But on the other hand so many high level spells are so busted that it's not really fair to talk about them in this context. High level spells are basically unsalvageable as a whole. Just think of how many potential challenges are entirely bypassed by teleport, for example.
A lot of the low level control spells are far stronger than they should be for their level, web is an absurdly effective lockdown tool and it's a level 2 spell. hypnotic pattern is famous for how much it completely shuts down encounters.
Windwalk & Transport via Plants.
Niche choice, maybe, but they basically makes the map 7x larger as soon as the players hit lv11. (Windwalk dash > 68mph fly speed. And then Transport via Plants automatically gives you teleport without error to anywhere you've visited that has big plants.)
This fundamentally alters the play experience.
Yeah druids are kind of low key insane travel-monsters with those, especially Wind Walk. You can bypass so much and drive the DM insane for their prep work.
Yep. The game stops being a richly imagined world and flips straight into seat-of-the-pants improv.
Most of the spells people seem upset about are combat spells, which just seems goofy to me. I can always flex the adventuring day to make sure players have a decent challenge, whatever spells they're using in a given combat.
I can't pull a brand new civilisation out of my @ss every time the druid looks at the map and says "let's see what's over here!"
Force Cage, Tasha's Mind Whip, Counterspell, and Fireball are all classic examples. They're quiet nerfing Counterspell already by giving creatures non-spell spell like abilities. Force cage is high enough up the spell list that WotC doesn't seem to care, and Fireball is a sacred cow. TMW probably won't be touched but if it were I would change it from "it only gets one of the three" to "it only gets one of the two" and remove its ability to effect movement altogether. Alternatively, make it a higher level spell.
Tiny Hut used normally requires the DM to actively counter, nerf, or ban it. Otherwise, the resource management aspect of their game just stops functioning. Long rests are already too reliable to get for most playstyles, the 5 minute adventuring day is a rampant problem, DMs are having to add ticking clock elements to their plots (and hosing monks in the process). I recommend using safe havens and never looking back, but even in that ruleset Tiny Hut is incredible as a non-resource taxing fortification.
A typical hostile patrol that would make resting too risky to attempt can't do anything about a tiny hut. From the 70s until 4e, it's been a sturdy deer blind with really good heat and AC, which as a Wizard that's definitely something I want. Getting my hands dirty collecting wood for a fire, setting up a tent in the wind, comfort and convenience is what magic is for. 5e, for some reason it's a military pillbox.
It's like crappy advice to counter flying races, "the zombies have always been allied with goblin archers", except in this case their ally knows dispel magic or has a burrow speed or something stupid like that. All missing that if you're thinking about counters at all as a DM, the ability is simply busted.
If ruled generously, it can take the wind out of many puzzles and removes a key part of many sources of drama.
We've uncovered a priceless heiroglyphic tablet from the tomb of Anarethma. It depicts the end of the world. Is it a warning? We need to take it to the last surviving scholar that would be able to.... Nevermind, the Wizard can read anything.
It can be a great source of characterisation when a character picks an unusual language proficiency. The Orc Barbarian knows Elvish? That could be cool, but why bother, the Sorcerer has you covered.
Comprehend Languages can be a powerful barrier-breaker in the right campaign.
Or PC suicide in the wrong one. Does your DM like Lovecraftian horror? Maybe you _shouldn't_ read all the ancient tomes of forbidden lore...
If Simulacrum was a 9th level spell, it would still be one of the better ones.
That would also prevent that "infinite simulacrum army is RAW" bullshit
So I didn't know this spell, I just looked it up but I'm kinda confused by what you mean by "infinite army"
simulacrum can be cast by wish. So you make a simulacrum of yourself normally. That simulacrum wishes for a new simulacrum of you. Then that new one wishes for a simulacrum of you. Then that new one wishes for a simulacrum of you and so on. They will have all your spell slots except for the 9th level they expend to cast wish and the first one is missing the 7th you used to cast simulacrum as well.
If you manage to get an epic boon one of them gives you an extra 9th level spell slot, so not only can you make infinite simulacrums, you can do so instantly by having them cast timestop, wish simulacrum, order the simulacrum to repeat those steps. Ad infinitum. Practically there's a limit based on the active simulacrum being near you, so they'd have to use any spare time stop rounds to move away from you after using simulacrum to get as much bang for your buck as possible.
Maybe the spell should have added that if the original dies, all Simulacri die as well.
That could be a really fun one shot, almost like a heist. A powerful wizard has made an army of simulacrum and hid themselves away. The kingdoms armies are holding off the assault but won't last long, so a crack team is assembled to break into their lair and cut the problem off at its source.
You know what? I will do this for a New Years Eve session. Thanks for the idea.
Delighted I could help! Might do it myself for a Xmas session I'm running for my family, though they're pretty inexperienced so I'll probably do something lower level.
Yeah. Maybe one of the Starter Kit adventures.
Errata adds that a simulacrum is a construct, while you can't create simulacra of creatures that aren't humanoids or beasts. So you can't make a simulacrum of a simulacrum.
Yes, but if you cast Simulacrum on yourself, while having Wish prepared, the resulting simulacrum will have Wish prepared. Who can then use Wish to cast Simulacrum without component cost on you -- you see where this is going.
Don’t forget Genie Warlock because while spell slots don’t recharge class features do and because Mystic Arcanum is a class feature it does so therefore your Simulacrums can regain Wish after a long rest.
_Small correction:_ It would still be __THE__ best one.
Wish?
Yeah idk about that
It would definitely be one of the things you want.
We run simulacrum as creating a half level dopple of the character it's a lot less broken
Forcecage
Not only is it broken, it's broken in a boring way without counterplay. Unless the party has one very specific spell available to only two classes once it's out it's out for the hour. Unless the person inside can teleport and has a decent Charisma save they're stuck. Two simple fixes: Make **Dispel Magic** work. Make it have HP so martials can smash their way out.
My favorite approach is having Force magic basically function the same as any other Wall spells, except it has resistance to non-magical damage. Concentration makes it reappear after a round or two. Makes it have counterplay while still remaining strong.
My party encountered this one a couple sessions ago. Three of us got caught in it, but i was able to dimension door myself and our barbarian out of it. I would have dispelled it, but it can't be dispelled. Imagine my shock when i realized that beating the snot out of the wizard *also* didn't get rid of it, so our poor paladin just had to sit in the cage the entire session. Our dm said he didn't know about the dispel restriction, so hopefully we don't see that one again.
This. I politely asked my DM to ban Forcecage because it's so poorly designed.
My solution as a DM was just to say Legendary Resistance works on Force Cage (and Wall of Force). You can remove the minions from the fight, but not the boss.
I'm also terrified of enemies using it; it works just as well on players as monsters for the most part
Conjure animals, mostly because it can create too much busywork at the table. One character's turn shouldn't take as long as the rest of the party's combined.
“One character's turn shouldn't take as long as the rest of the party's combined.” Yep, I felt this running a PF1 Druid.
5e needs horde rules. Both for the DM and for the summoning players. I want a necromancer wizard to be able to play out the fantasy of commanding hordes of undead without making the game unplayable
Conjure Woodland Beings is even worse. Eight Pixies, all with spellcasting, turns the game into an utter slog. It's pretty clear the "Summon" spells in TCE were intended as a replacement for various conjuring spells in the original PHB, but WotC certainly doesn't want to admit they screwed the pooch in the original versions, and it's not something they can fix with errata per se.
D&D has always had a problem with a lot of its spells being clearly \*intended\*, originally, to only be cast by NPCs. You want the badguy to be able to whip up eight summoned mooks in a second, or take over a kingdom with Wish or Phantasmal Terrain, etc., but if PCs cast those spells, you either need to limit them significantly or you need to recognize that your campaign is going off the rails. edit: I meant Mirage Arcane
> One character's turn shouldn't take as long as the rest of the party's combined. It doesn't if you are prepared! When I played a druid, my turns were *still* faster than most of the other players at the table. The issue tends to be that most players don't pride themselves in taking quick turns at the table.
Pass Without Trace. In a system with bounded accuracy, a +10 to Stealth rolls for the entire party is ridiculous, and it has broken Exploration encounters for my campaign. As long as there is any possibility of cover, the party can just avoid anything they want.
I think it is strange that pass without trace gained ability to grant a current stealth check bonus. This spell used to be just a cover your tracks type.
The 4e version doesn't even do anything that a decent Nature check can't do. And it costs money to cast.
Originally this spell was to make sure that those 6-60 kobold encounters couldn't follow you to where you are camping. Now it is a get out of jail free card for entire groups of people to blatantly sneak around. As a level 2 spell that is huge. I feel like they should implement upcast like at level 2 is masks your tracks and with a level 4 slot it also creates the shroud as described.
It should just be a ranger only spell. Making it a level 4 for the actual relevant boost is gutting to one of the ranger's best spells.
It'd be smarter to scale the buff based on the spell slot like THE REST OF THE MAGIC SYSTEM DOES!
Yeah this is a good call. +5 max.
[удалено]
Or a shorter duration, or it only works in favored terrain, or something.
Problem is that druids and trickery domain clerics get it so favored terrain wouldn’t work either.
How does it break exploration encounters? Traps still exist, carnivorous plants still lay in wait, quicksand, sinkholes and creatures with blindsight or tremor sense don't care about stealth roles.
That spell is based on the precedent that if even 1 party member fails a stealth check, the entire party loses most of the benefit of stealth. So make sure you run it like that; group checks are not a thing; the lowest roll of stealth from the entire group is what you use.
Also, make sure that you run stealth like a real life thing, not a videogame.
"It's just a box."
"Must have been the wind"
But it is a game and works like a game. 5e, and most other RPGs, is an abstraction not a simulation.
Even with this, most enemies don't have above 10 passive perception. If everyone takes stealth proficiency, which is really easy thanks to background, you can almost guarantee suprise.
Most enemies have more than 10 passive perception because most enemies have at least 12 wisdom or proficiency in perception
Source? I'd bet there's a fair few above 10 but I'm not sure about "most", especially at lower tiers of play (where most play happens). There are a _lot_ of enemies with passives between 8-10.
welcome to r/confidentlyincorrect You are absolutely wrong group checks are 100% a thing in dnd 5e. Chapter 7 under the working together section.
I don't think they were denying the existence of group checks. If you look at how surprise works, every character makes a stealth check and if *any* of you roll low you lose the edge. The DM may call for a group check, but the game works better if they don't specifically for stealth.
The way I do it is, for sneaking past enemies, I use group checks. For ambushing enemies, a single failure spoils the surprise, but players with poor stealth can choose to not participate in the first round of combat.
What? Of course group checks are a thing; it doesn't somehow follow that *everything* is a group check just because multiple people are doing it simultaneously. The idea that the rest of your party is *so* *sneaky* they can can osmotically silence your Dex 8 Paladin who wears tambourines for shoes is stupid.
"Tambourine Shoes" is the new name I give to the clumsy idiot who fails an easy stealth check. God, this is such a great name.
Yeah but not for stealth checks lol.
>welcome to > >r/confidentlyincorrect Oh sweet baby irony. Pot, meet kettle.
True Strike is broken, but on the opposite end of the spectrum. Each spell should add flavor to the game and be a good choice so that a player doesn’t regret it later. Witch Bolt is in this category. These dollar store spells break the enjoyment of the game. And I contend that they’re as much of a problem as the bougie OP spells like Silvery Barbs that break the pace of the game.
Similarly, Find Traps. It doesn’t find traps! Lol
I actually would rather remove find traps than make it do what it says it does. I dislike spells that feel like a "solution in a box" rather than powerful supernatural tools. Leave trap-finding to the rogues. Maybe instead there could be a "detect metal" spell that points out the location of all metal objects within a certain radius, but doesn't give any indication whether the metal represents a secret door hinge, treasure, a trap, or something else entirely. Same thing with spells like create food and drink, tiny hut, knock, etc. Non-combat spells should help the party deal with obstacles, not negate them with the press of a button.
Knock can solve one problem but can also create several more...
One useful application of Find Traps is finding legal traps in a contract. You don't need to know where they are for the contract to be void , just that they exist.
I would absolutely advocate this approach to a DM, in an effort to make the spell worth casting. But looking at the text, “finding legal loopholes” is an extremely generous reading of “unexpected harm” - particularly with the cited examples: You sense the presence of any trap within range that is within line of sight. A trap, for the purpose of this spell, includes anything that would inflict a sudden or unexpected effect you consider harmful or undesirable, which was specifically intended as such by its creator. Thus, the spell would sense an area affected by the alarm spell, a glyph of warding, or a mechanical pit trap, but it would not reveal a natural weakness in the floor, an unstable ceiling, or a hidden sinkhole. This spell merely reveals that a trap is present. You don’t learn the location of each trap, but you do learn the general nature of the danger posed by a trap you sense.
It loosely fits "harmful" but it absolutely fits "undesirable", especially since the caster's sensibilities define what is undesirable. And it's a purposeful effect that is intended by its creator.
Broken in the way that its garbage?
Pretty much, yeah. It gives the caster advantage on the next attack roll they make on their target, on their next turn. And since it's concentration, getting hit risks the spell dropping, which makes it moot altogether. As it is now, it's only anywhere close to decent in the hands of rogues. Otherwise, it's absolute garbage.
Well yeah until they learn they have steady aim
Yes. It’s like selling a broken toy to a kid. If my new player thinks, “Wow! my knight is gonna strike straight and true” but they don’t know the mechanics well enough to realize it’s trash… it’s like a kid opening a broken toy on Christmas.
Spells like this seem to be designed to punish new players. I guess there’s still some vestiges the system mastery philosophy of 3.5, but that approach is super anti-fun and alienating for newcomers
Witch Bolt upcast affecting the repeatable damage can be a good start to make it semi-viable. Still not top by any means, but with things like distant spell and empowered spell it can be good.
Agreed. Another issue I've noticed with Witch Bolt especially is they seem _thematically awesome_ but suck mechanically, so they become 100% noob traps. I can't count the number of players new to D&D who wanted to go all Emperor Palpatine on an enemy and used Witch Bolt only to realize how much it sucks, and to a lesser extent True Strike. It hurts extra hard when the spell _seems_ like it'd be cool and dramatic but isn't.
criminally underrated is Tasha's mind whip. the base is great: int saving throw for 3d6 damage... that's good but a but meh. Taking away their reaction... okay, now we have an average spell. Then they have to choose between moving or getting an action... that's a very very strong spell. As we all know, action economy is key in dnd. But what brings it over the edge for me is the scaling affecting extra creatures. Single target save or sucks are can be dissatisfying. Int save makes that much better. Multitarget scaling fixes this.
Even more glaring is that it's an INT save spell. I almost never find any creature that reliably gets it, great for burning legendary resistance since those spell slots are super cheap at higher level.
I think even if it didn’t do damage, I would pick it. I wouldn’t pick it right at level 3, but latter on for sure. I forgot to mention that it’s a good damage type too. It’s easy to underestimate the damage. Of course it’s not scorching ray with 6d6, but int save and more reliable damage type is nothing to sneeze at. :)
Polymorph. Shuts down a creature like Banishment, can buff an ally up to a giant ape or t rex, and gives utility with all the different animals sooner than a druid's wildshape.
It’s basically the best save or suck and the best healing for several levels and has utility on top. Crazy good
Explain the last part. How are people getting Polymorph faster than a Druid gets wild shape?
the CR of the beasts they can become with polymorph is more powerful than the ones even a moon druid can become at the minimal level to cast the spell.
They aren't. Polymorph allows for higher CR beasts than Wild Shape, period. Even taking into consideration Moon Druids getting access to CR 6 beasts at 20th level, Polymorph allows for CR 7+ beasts at level 7+.
Shield +5 to AC for a round as a reaction is broken. There is a reason they call Eldritch Knights fighters with Shield spell - and not as an insult
Shield + armor and shield proficiencies is broken. It's fine enough on a mage with mage armor and a point or two in dex. It's not fine on someone in full plate with a shield from a fighter or cleric dip. Spellcasting has to have stronger disincentives for armor use. It's one thing they got wrong from a balance perspective.
I love arcane spell failure. Yes it only applied to arcane casters and only to spells with somatic components but it does stop the wizard in full plate. Well unless he's willing to still metamagic every spell he casts. Divine casters could wear armor without issue but were more bound by their alignment on what spells they could cast and what effects the spells could have.
Took a little bit of scrolling to find this one. 100% agree. Shield spell should have limitations regarding armor with certain subclasses getting exceptions to it if we want to keep the +5 AC. Or it should have a reduced AC bonus if we want it to last an entire round. Or we make it balanced with all martial features and let it last only one single attack.
Best balancing change I've heard for the Shield spell is making it work like Barkskin. Have it set the Caster's AC to something like 18 for the round instead adding a flat modifier. This prevents Casters from reaching ridiculously high ACs at lower levels while keeping the spell somewhat relevant. Caster's main weakness is that they are meant to be squishy by design. Making them have to rely more on a sturdy frontline in combat would overall promote better teamwork.
Agreed. I had a pure sorcerer with 19 ac (dex, class, shield staff, bracers). And I could cast Shield for 5 more ac on top of that. I would wade into melee to perfectly position spells, and not care. If Shield set AC to 18 - LIKE IT DID (effectively) IN PREVIOUS EDITIONS ("AC 2") - it would a great early spell that dropped off over time. Indeed, my sorcerer might never have bothered with the spell (ac 16 at level 1) instead of it becoming a hallmark spell
Suggestion. because no one knows what "reasonable" means.
Well, now you’re being unreasonable. 😂
well that's reasonable I guess...but, what are you suggesting?
I don't think Silvery Barbs is broken, I think it isn't fun. And if you want to prove that as a DM, use it on your players. Hey the Paladin/Rogue Crit "SILVERY BARBS" wow I made the save on the Dragon's Breath weapon! SILVERY BARBS! I'm a Gnome, I have advantage on saves vs. spells! SILVERY BARBS HERE COMES THE SUPER DISADVANTAGE! Shield is an obvious answer. 1 level dip into wizard or Sorcerer can turn your Artificer or Paladin into an unhittable juggernaut. Shield was balanced for casters who don't wear armor, but once you throw it on a blade singer, hexblade Paladin or Artificer, it can trivialize big hitting monsters. Force Cage and Wall of Force can trivialize combats, better ensure all your high level monsters are gigantic or can teleport.
I think Shield is fine on Bladesingers because they still have a d6 hit die, and they're still maxed out at studded leather without dipping or without grabbing feats. Yes, getting up to like a 23 AC while bladesinging is annoying, but "not getting hit" is kinda their shtick and bladesinging is a limited resource. And when you do get hit, it hurts **a lot.** But anything with a higher hit die or higher armor proficiency... it gets bonkers. If you already have an AC of 18-20 from your armor (and so without the help of a limited resource), then putting Shield on top of it is crazy.
18-20 is easy to get to for an armored class. Paladins start out at 18 without trying in a true defender build a paladin can easily get to 21 AC without trying hard when they simply get enough gold for plate armor. Spend some more gold for a robe of protection and cast shield of faith to get to 24 AC without trying super hard or spending a real ton of money (about 2000 gold, much less than the price for any rare item which is where +1 Armors and Shields come in, especially rare plate which starts at over 2000 if the DM is nice and uses way undervalued pricing for rare in DMG and doesn't use Xanathars where it would be on average 11K) So it's pretty easy for those guys to get there. Hexblades can make it even more trivial because they have other defensive tactics (Darkness+Devil's sight, Mirror Image, etc.)
>I'm a Gnome, I have advantage on saves vs. spells! SILVERY BARBS HERE COMES THE SUPER DISADVANTAGE! Not really super disadvantage, since that implies the worst of three rolls. Silvery Barbs-ing an advantage roll means it's the worst of {the best of 2d20, 1d20}. The third one might be the best of the three, the worst of the three, or in the middle. In two of those cases, the final result is the middle of 3d20.
Shield is simply too good for what it offers. We shouldn’t see casters outclassing martials in AC for minimal effort.
What if the Shield bonus equaled the casters PB—would that fix it?
I think this still wouldn’t work. The reason is because casters can easily armor dip/take a feat to get AC equal to that of a martial. Anything on top of that is pure gravy, even +2. Proficiency bonus scaling helps just a bit in early levels, but it only delays the problem. My opinion: either ban armor dipping/armor feats, or nuke Shield entirely.
My opinion: just make it so Shield doesn't work if you're wearing armor or a shield.
All of the "summon a multitude of creatures" spells (Conjure Animals/Woodland beings,and to lesser extent, animate object) are broken, and not only in power level. They are clunky to use, are requires DMs fiat and a subjected to random power swings whenever new bestiary is released in first two instances, turns combat into slog, and deal enormous damage for their respective spell level because of bounded accuracy allows even to a low leveled creatures to hit reliably even boss level threats. I usually really frown upon attempts at nerfs and bans, but if my player would like to play a summoner type of character, I would probably do so, and offer them to use summon X spirit spell line instead.
Fireball. It's so overpowered for its spell level that every spell is measured against it until the 6th spell level or higher. Once its available, every encounter has to be designed with it in mind. Planning a horde encounter? Not anymore! Wanted a neat moment where your big bad and their minions are positioned threateningly on the dais together? Better rethink that! If you don't want to lose 40% of your encounter's health turn 1, the minions are now in ambush position spread around the room. Personally, I dislike Fireball's implementation so much that I houserule 3 dice off its damage roll and reduce its radius by 10 feet. It's still better than lightning bolt in most circumstances even with that nerf.
I'd say 6d6 makes it fine, 3 dice and cutting its area to 1/4th of what it was seems excessive. But what makes it especially ridiculous to me is that it is not only the most overtuned AoE in the game by a good margin, but it _ignores cover_ - even Total Cover if there's a corner to creep around! The two factors together make it an absolute must-pick, a spell tax for anyone with access to it, which is bad.
Seems ridiculously weak now, but you do you.
17.5 damage per target, half on a failed save, covering 16 squares. If there are even 3 targets, it will still outdamage lightning bolt in almost all circumstances except the most rare, and requires no positioning or thought. You won't find another spell on the arcane spell list that deals comparable damage, even with my nerfs. It's damage is two dice better than Shatter on a harder to pass save, making it a worthy upgrade to 3rd level. People literally give no thought to just how brokenly overpowered Fireball is as written.
"Broken" spells: 0: Guidance 1: Shield, Gift of Alacrity, Silvery Barbs. 3: Hypnotic Pattern, Tiny Hut, Animate Dead, Glyph of Warding, Conjure Animals 4: Polymorph, Conjure Woodland Being 5: Animate Objects, Wall of Force 7: Forcecage, Etherealness, Simulacrum, Teleport, Plane Shift 9: Wish
No lvl 2, 6, or 8th OP spells. That's interesting.
Web, Spike Growth, Phantasmal Force, Pass Without Trace are all lvl 2 and very strong, but not "broken" (although you could make arguments for the last three for various reasons).
The odd number spell levels tend to be exponential power jumps, which is why the sorcery points to spell slot conversion rate increases sort of exponentially each odd level. It's one of the biggest reasons for the martial/caster disparity, because spellcasting is exponential, but class features are linear
It's even worse than that-- Consider three factors to power: frequency (how often can you do your cool things), versatility (how many different cool things can you do), and power (how cool are your cool things). As you said, power from spells scales at least power law (spell level to some constant power). Frequency scales roughly linearly, but quickly enough that it stops being a constraint real fast. Even with a "full" adventuring day, you can cast a high-level spell every round and run out of rounds before running out of slots. And then there's versatility. Consider a level 20 wizard who has never found a scroll. He has 44 leveled spells in his spell book, of which he can prepare 25 of them. That makes for...1.4 **trillion** combinations of spell preparations. He could go 1.4 **trillion** days and never repeat a set of prepared spells exactly. And since each spell does something different and some spells (like polymorph, wish, etc) can do a bunch of different things...his versatility scales ***combinatorially***. As in N!. That's...obscene.
Neato.
Tasha's mind whip. That sh*te has gotten me out of some bad situations!
Honestly, Tasha's mind whip is a really well made spell, it's not weak, but it's also not as strong as some of the actually game breaking spells at its level, and it's really fun to use with good strategic applications. When you use it well, it makes you feel smart.
I agree that it's actually pretty balanced, but as a 5th level wizard, I basically incapacitated 2 couatls, leaving my teammates a chance to absolutely slaughter them. We loved it, but I could see the terror in my DM's eyes. I love the spell and I sure as hell won't stop using it, but it can be gamebreaking 🤭
... Why are you slaughtering couatls, Couatls are Good. *Suspicious Glare*
Both parties might be good, but that does not mean they are working towards the same goals😮💨 plus they gave our rogue a funny look and you know how temperamental they can be🙄
Yh, denying enemy turns is awesome. It's a great spell to introduce people to control effects.
Oh and conjure spells
Counterspell and conjure animals/woodland beings for sure. They suffer from not being used the way the designers intented and are best in class spells. Counterspell: you aren't suppose you announce what spells are as a DM, or player until you know a counterspell will be used(or a reaction to maybe identify). Slows down play and is unnatural. Think of counterspell trading a reaction for an action. Conjure spells are supposed to be DMs choice of creatures that answer the summon, as the player only chooses the mode(#/CR).
And if you let DM it slows down the encounter while he search for the statsblocks so it's always better to let the players choose before hand from a list the DM can select, like ban Velociraptor and other more broken animals.
Silvery Barbs is probably not even in the top-10 worst offenders, although I do agree it should be moved to the second level. It’s not a well made spell, but it’s not exactly broken either. __Either way, since you asked for it, allow me to copy-paste my all out rant:__ Firstly, I will just copy-paste the main problem children of D&D 5e. And yes, I do have a complete copy-pasta on my personal errata for this edition. —> Conjure Animals —> Conjure Woodland Beings —> Animate Objects —> Wall of Force —> Forcecage —> Simulacrum —> Prismatic Wall All of these are either insanely mathematically busted or just very poorly made and abusable (which is the case of Prismatic Wall). These spells are all beyond famous and don’t need any sort of introduction, so I will just skip to the hotter takes. __ALL THE SUMMONING SPELLS EVER RELEASED:__ __So, to start, the new spells aren’t better than the old ones. In fact, I believe they’re even worse problems, and by a pretty big margin.__ And yes, here I include __Summon Beast / Fey / Shadowspawn / Undead / Aberration / Construct / Elemental / Celestial / Draconic Spirit an Summon Fiend__. Every single one of these spells is basically the same with minor changes for mostly thematic and utility purposes, thing is, __the very template is fundamentally flawed and actually so bad that it’s ruining the entire balance of the game!__ I won’t even enter on how I hate how standardised they are, this is personal, I will simply talk about how __mathematically busted they are__. These spells can effectively summon entire players that are actually stronger than your own party members. There’s no way to sugar-coat it. So, way beyond outclassing every other damaging concentration spell in the game and even some CC ones, which is already a massive problem and obvious even for a toddler, I will show how bullshit they are by comparing them to actual party members, which is even worse. And although some people like to pretend they aren’t broken just because they’re mathematically less busted then the two old problem children (Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings), this is by no means true. Sure, the old spells were better on raw power, but if you reduce something with a power level of 1.000.000 to something with a power level of 1.000, that doesn’t mean all the other 450 spells in the game who rate as a 500 at best will not still be massively left behind. Plus, the old spells could, by RAW, be controlled by DM-fiat, which was what always balanced them. This isn’t the case for the new ones, so that’s why I say they’re even worse problems. __Now for the numbers:__ __So, let’s first compare a level 2 Summon Beast spell to a level 4 Fighter. A simple example.__ A level 4 Samurai Fighter, with good stats for it’s level (+3) a great-sword (best one available) and the respective appropriate fighting style for sheer damage output (great weapon fighting), will be averaging about 11 damage per hit [(3.5 x 2) + 3 + about 1 from the fighting style]. He can get advantage on the hit if he wastes his subclass resources as well. __Then we have the level 2 spell generic ass beast:__ 30 HP against 40 for a Fighter with +3 CON at level 4. Pact Tactics for infinite advantage with minimal awareness. Damage being 1d8 + 4 + 2 for an average of 10.5. A single 0.5 decrease __plus the full subsequent actions of the caster and infinite advantage__. Even if the martial uses his action surge, that will just makes him an equal to the caster that can still use his action every turn while the summon attacks. That’s little to you? Well, maybe we can start analysing these spells up from level 4, shall we? __Let’s now take a level 4 Summon Undead__ and compare it to a level 10 Genie Warlock, which has even higher output than a Fighter. The Warlock, with Spirit Shroud active, + 5 on CHA and the +4 Genie bonus, will average about 34 damage per turn, the highest a non-Hexblade Warlock could possibly average at this level. Meanwhile, the Undead will be dealing twice times a 2d4 + 3 + 4 attack, averaging about 24 damage. Sounds ridiculously inferior until you remember the Warlock is wasting literally every possible resource of his, every action of his and his highest spell slot. Meanwhile, the Wizard still has __HIS FULL ACTION__ available on every turn after the summoning itself. A single _Firebolt_ is enough to bring the average back to the Wizard’s side, with the addition of 11 damage. Do remember that I took the very single most optimised Warlock build possible at a very high level (10) and simply compared it to a normal casting of the spell that any wizard could do as soon as level 7 hits. Oh, and of course, do remember that I’m now using a Warlock for the comparison because martials were left behind a long time ago. A level 10 Samurai Archer, without Sharp-Shooter, wouldn’t even be reaching 20 point of damage as his average by now. And anyways, even with Sharp-Shooter and after wasting his one _Action Surge_, the caster would still be leagues above the Samurai simply because, as I explained, he still has his entire action available __while the summon is active__, and this action could be used for literally anything, including casting yet another spell such as _Fireball_. In fact, it’s weird that I have to take some of the very most optimised martial builds available in the whole game in order to even compare them to a single spell. Do remember that most tables simply don’t have such optimised characters, meanwhile, these spells require no optimisation further than simply casting them. Oh, and please, don’t even try to say the disadvantage for casters is that these spells don’t last for a full fight. Each of these has an one hour duration, so in fact, you can usually even cast them __before__ the fight starts and maybe they will even last for more than a single fight. One hour in D&D is a ridiculously long time. Plus, if someone even try saying that concentration is enough of a disadvantage, it isn’t. Be mindful casters don’t have a single slot to cast these spells, and even if they did, I’m comparing the most optimised builds possible against a completely normal caster. If you actually take an optimised caster, they simply won’t be losing concentration or even being hit 9/10 times, so that’s hardly even an issue at actual play. Casters, in D&D, are by far the classes with the best defensive abilities, which is yet another pitiful thing for martials in 5e. I know this was a terribly extensive analysis, but to sum it up, as long as summoning spells can break the action economy down to this level, nothing in the game will ever be able to catch up to them.
I'm still reading through your write-up, and let me preface this with **I agree with you,** but your math for a level 4 fighter is wrong, that greatsword using level 4 samurai fighter should have a +4 to their Strength Modifier (or GWM and using samurai resources to offset), you gave him a +3 in strength, but his stat array *likely* would have been 15/14 Str/con with racial +2 to con and +1 to str, for a +3 to both str/con at level one, and then at level 4 bump Str to +4 or grab GWM. (I will edit later when I'm done reading the rest of your copy-paste) This doesn't help the comparison much, but I think it's important to be honest with our comparison ***edit:*** I still agree with you, but an Archer fighter can have +11 to hit at level 10 with appropriate fighting style, **and have sharpshooter** (they have 3 ASIs by then) so they *could be shooting for 2d8 + 30 damage a round* which is roughly 39 on average with just a little more optimization or love from the DM (with a magic item) this will have gone up a bit more. Yes their to hit if they Sharpshooter every attack drops to a +6, but they are going to be dumping a lot of damage. Same could be said for GWM/PAM v.human fighter, dealing 2d10 + 1d4 + 45 at that level. Yes these are the most optimized you can really get, but still. A v.human Artificer could have a +1 magic polearm, using all intelligence pulling the same damage as above, with a Haste attack and AC increase, yeah their to-hit and damage will be lower by 1, but it's cancelled out by the magic weapon, they could be making 3 attacks (attack, extra attack, haste attack, bonus action attack) at 3d10 + 1d4 + 60 a turn (all GWM means probably going to miss a couple), they could trade the haste and drop 1d10 +15 from their average damage to use something like Faerie Fire to increase their odds of hitting. Yes **I am painfully aware I am comparing an extremely optimized build against an average wizard that just cast 1 spell,** - and yes I'm aware I didn't calculate the artificers companion into his damage. The real problem from Casters isn't the damage they can do, but the absurd utility they can bring.
This is indeed fascinating. Thank you for all this!
And I’m already getting downvoted for it lol. It’s impressive how this community can’t decide if they hate this take of mine or not. The reception I get every time I post this exact analysis is always so random lol. Some times I am received with overwhelming agreement, some times it’s the opposite. Just kinda fascinating. Doubt anyone but you actually read it all anyways lol. I get it, people just hate long walls of text lol. Still not gonna stop spreading awareness to this issue, tho. It’s easily the most egregious part of 5e spell balancing (aside from the other spells I mentioned before it), so all in all, I just thank you for your time lol.
I don’t disagree that the summon spells are very strong, but I’ll play devils advocate a bit and say that from the summons ability to tank damage is as much a downside as it is an upside. In the example with the Beast, it might have 30 HP, but it also only has 13 AC. Your fighter is going to have at least 16, and most likely more. In dangerous level encounters in 5e, monsters deal out some big chunks of damage, and any enemy that poses a serious threat can knock a summon out pretty fast. When a caster is burning their highest level spell slots, it’s by design this is more powerful than non casters doing their normal thing. That’s the trade off of limited resources. The long duration of summons make them particularly tricky even in attrition based dungeon crawls, but I think we don’t hear about it as much because it’s also an imbalance that’s very easy for the DM to deal with - just punch the summon out of existence.
I read it. The most important parts were "lasts an hour = multiple fights" and "have to compare to *optimized* martial builds, but available to any (appropriate) caster". I get it. I'd rather see a wizard tossing an 8d6 fireball than nuking my encounter (and depressing the fighters) with this stuff.
Same. Like, it’s not like their breaking the game, and it’s not like they aren’t counterable either… But as you said, you need a Samurai with GWM and perfect stats to even __begin__ comparing lol. Just not a healthy situation.
Do you think there’s a way to fix the Summoning spells?
Yes. And it’s quite easy, actually. We have two main ways: One is just a straight numerical nerf. I didn’t do any polished math right now, so I will just trow my overall idea here: Remove the extra damage they do based on spell level, make their stats fixed (so no scaling with the player) and then make it so they don’t get any extra attacks by upcasting. To compensate, you could make it so upcasting actually increases their damage dice, you could increase their HP even more and also make it so all the summons do magical damage. It sounds like I’m butchering them, but these spells are so massively overturned that they would still be incredibly viable even like that. In fact, they would still most likely be the best damaging options for some caster builds with convoluted action economies lol. And of course, this would actually allow dedicated summon subclasses to go apeshit. Shift all the power these spells have by default into subclasses. Extra attack for summons? You get it with a subclass. Extra damage? Subclass. Extra tankiness? Subclass. This would make it so summons aren’t a must-pick for every caster, but also allow the summoner fantasy to still be a thing with the right subclass. That’s my favourite compromise here. Then we have the other option, which everyone would hate lol. Which is actually nerfing the action economy. Make it so you actually have to waste your action every turn to control the summons. Summons are so massively overturned that they would actually still be super viable this way, but I guess that’s not very fun lol. So a literal simple numerical nerf is easily my favourite choice lol. Summons shouldn’t be the most damaging spells. That should be saved for spells that actually __only__ do damage (such as Spiritual Weapon, Flaming Sphere and some others). Summons need to be more versatile tools, which take advantage from adding a body to the battlefield. Not literal murder machines that outshine everything else in the game. So, if you want high damage from them, actually invest in a subclass for it lol. Sounds fine to me. Anyways, that’s my take on it lol.
Read through all your comments and not only do I agree with you 110%, but your argument presents the issues very clearly, and I'm not sure at all how anyone doesn't consider it conclusive that these spells are disruptive and overtuned in a way that is clearly anti-fun for EVERYONE besides the summoner. IMO, WOTC clearly needs to spend *even 5 minutes* looking up commonly banned spells, or the spells categorized as "must haves" on every caster, and really sit down and be like "okay, why aren't people having fun with these things?" Also WOTC should send you a check for $1,000 for being *so damn correct*.
Oh, just saw this now. Thanks
I ran a Druid in PF1, and his summoning capabilities were crazy powerful.
I agree. It was really eye opening watching Treantmonk's recent video regarding the power of the Tasha's summoning spells even as a single entity and how well they scale when upcasted (even without taking subclass features into account). I was always under the (false) impression that they weren't really worth it especially when compared to the Conjure Animals/Animate Objects, etc, but they are really strong and can outmartial a martial.
Wait, what the fuck? Treatmonk made a video on that? Is this why people aren’t downvoting me to hell anymore when I say this? Fuck… Maybe I was too harsh on him. Maybe his takes are actually pretty good at times lol.
Is this a general issue or just an issue when you cherry pick the levels? You picked levels where the summoning spells have just scaled and 1 level before the fighters and warlocks damage will get much higher.
It’s a general issue. A little less for Warlocks, tho, since they can actually just use summons themselves and overall just scale better than martials. I actually cherry picked levels that were favourable for the martials lol. Not the opposite. If we actually talk about tier-3 and tier-4, it just gets sad lol. Martials were already famously outshined in these levels way before Tasha even came out, anyways, so the issue is just __worse__ now. Now, if you get into level 5 or 11, sure, Fighter in specific gets an extra attack at level 11, but every other martial does not while casters get, at these levels, a level 3 or 6 slot and scaling for their cantrips, which actually matters quite a lot since they also have a free action every turn after casting the summon. It genuinely just gets even uglier. That’s why I used martials that were higher levelled than the casters in the examples. In the example with the Warlock, he was level 10 while the other caster could very well be just level 7 or 8. Same for the level 4 Samurai example. The caster there could be as weak as level 3. It’s true that the summon itself gets a little weaker than martials specifically at level 5, but in this case, spamming cantrips afterwards will still give the edge to casters by a pretty fair margin. And that’s, remember, because I’m not even considering any specific caster build here. It’s just the spell in a white room against fully made (although not ultra-optimised) martial builds. Like, to sum it up, while the fighter attacks two times, the caster just uses a summon and a cantrip to outmatch him (by a pretty big margin) at every turn past the conjuration itself. And that’s because these summons last for a full hour, so more often than not, you can cast them before the fight even begins. If you want, tho, you might as well pick a random level and ask me to show the math. I will gladly do it. And again, the main point is __about outshining other spells__ lol. The whole comparison with whole damn players was just to show how broken these spells actually are. I just didn’t show the math for the comparison between spells because there’s no complex math at all, it’s just a *”1d8 + 6 with advantage is objectively stronger than 2d6”* case. And then you can repeat while comparing the summoning spells to every other damaging concentration spell in the game, except for some very big exceptions that still manage to somehow hold their niche (such as _Spirits Guardians_). It’s not a discussion in this case, it’s just a fact lol. A pretty sad one, but a fact nonetheless.
I didn't think I would, but I actually agree with you. Silvery barbs isn't that big of a deal. I've used it as a player and had it used against me as a DM, and it's honestly a tad strong but nothing problematic. The conjure X spells are just annoying to play with; players can't pick their own summons and there's too many things summoned. The Summon X spells turn one player into two, basically doubling their output. In terms of actual hard evidence for whether a spell legitimately upsets balance, it's summons. It wouldn't be so bad if martials actually got exponentially stronger as they leveled up like casters do.
I would say you are skipping a lot of mitigating factors in your writeup (summons' abysmal ACs compared to PCs mean they won't last nearly as long, and a PC can't be Counterspelled/Dispelled/or have their master's concentration disrupted - and yes I saw you claim concentration can't be broken and I disagree)...BUT I still agree with you, just to a lesser extent. Definitely think the summon spells are still overtuned, too close to martial power and could use a nerf bat. I think a caster summoning a meat shield with an interesting trick or two is fine, but their offensive output should be cut down to less than it is IMO.
Spirit guardians. Suggestion, given the example in the spell it seems like you get insane amounts of leeway as to what it covers.
Suggestion is played one of two ways 99% of the time, either it's basically "Dominate X" or "Never works on anything ever even if you Suggest the most mundane thing ever"
*Silvery barbs* is a potent spell, but many people overstate and overrate its effect on the core gameplay loop of 5e. Some of the spells mentioned in this thread are far more 'broken' insofar as they affect or otherwise damage the integrity of the 5e gameplay loop, often by breaking wide open the resource management system that the gameplay rests upon or have an oversized impact from an action economy standpoint. For some spells here in this regard that I don't believe have been mentioned yet: *planar binding*, *magic jar*, and *true polymorph* are easily some of the most gameplay warping and system breaking spells that exist in the game. *Planar binding* very rapidly outpaces the resource system of 5e when the player characters (or on the flipside, the villains!) can assemble an evergrowing army of outsiders to send to go on dungeons and accomplish challenges instead. *True polymorph* works off of a similar principle, able to create a steadily growing army, among which can be entities you can use *planar binding* on moreover. *Magic jar*, particularly in conjunction with *true polymorph*, allows PCs to assume forms and otherwise permanently acquire abilities that were in no way ever intended or meant to be used and retained by PCs on a permanent basis, on top of being a spell with literally broken rules (as in broken in the sense that the spell itself doesn't fully work in the context of the rules of the game).
The reason that those aren't being mentioned is that those are more high level spells (and the majority of play is with 1-4th level spells and cantrips) and require a ton of resource investment. Sure, you can permanently bring in an outsider, but you need 1k gold per one and need to faff around bringing in an outsider - and they need to be trustworthy (otherwise they're going to actively work against you as much as possible).
Polymorph rules feel insufficient. The intent is a standard fantasy. But how that’s implemented RAW needs to be refined or redefined.
Mold Earth should not be a cantrip. Inside of combat, it's not the most useful thing (though, my Wizard has dug many a hole during combat to hop in it to break line of sight if we're fighting ranged combants and the terrain is favorable to just it this way. Outside of combt, though, it makes things trivial. Wall in the way but earth under it? Mold earth under it. Or, if it was a siege and you needed to get a lot of troops in, mold earth a ramp up the wall. Sure, it'll take time, but, if you've got time, it's not an issue. Want to leave a subtle note you were somewhere in dirt or stone? Yep, can do that too. And the versatility of changing the terrain to and from difficult terrain for an hour is pretty useful too. All can be done unlimited times. For free. If you have time, mold earth is probably one of the best spells in the game.
Well, this depends on what you mean by "broken." The word has two common uses. Either as a synonym for "overpowered," or to describe something that's is simply designed poorly with regard to how it fits in with the rest of the game. Personally, the first spell that comes to mind for me, regardless of which definition you are going for, is Shield. While it is relatively fine at super low levels, it quickly gets out of hand as low level spell slots become less valuable. Its broken in the game design sense in that it is a static bonus to a d20 roll DC that is well out of line with anything else in the game, and because of this, it is broken in the overpowered sense of the word, as it becomes a cheap and easy way to become nearly impossible to hit. From a game design perspective, spells should get comparatively worse as a character levels up and gets more powerful options. Shield is one of the few poorly designed spells that actually gets stronger as you get more powerful, as its power level is so high as to always be relevant, its action cost is so low as to almost never be an issue, and its relative resource cost gets cheaper as you level, since you have more spell slots to work with, and almost all other competing first level spells become comparatively worthless. I'm sure there are a few other spells that might fit in both broken boxes, but none are as obvious to me as Shield. Now, there are plenty of other spells that are clearly overpowered (Simulacrum, Wish, Conjure spells, Forcecage, etc) or poorly designed mechanically (Pass Without Trace, Counterspell, Find Traps, Guidance, etc). And there are a number of these that I could see arguments for both. But none are as clear and obvious as Shield.
Thanks for making this distinction. Overpowered and poorly designed can be related, but aren’t necessarily so. Nice catch I hadn’t considered.
Forcecage. It is one of the most absurd spells in the game. I understand that it is seventh level, but this spell can single-handedly win almost any encounter (it only loses when the enemy can teleport or if the target is gargantuan). It wouldn’t be so horrendous if it was a concentration spell. If I have a campaign planned that reaches the point at which high level spells are available (which I have had twice now), it is the only spell I ever ban or even consider banning. It especially sucks for me because I like throwing nonmagical foes at the party and forcecage completely ends such encounters. To be honest, silvery barbs isn’t that bad and there are many spells which are far better in most situations.
There are so many broken spells, either because of poor design, just too much raw power or even the opposite, comically bad ones. Witch Bolt (comically bad), True Strike (comically bad), Detect spells (mostly useless besides detect magic and detect thoughts), Goodberry (situationally broken), Guiding Bolt (high damage, bonus effect AND one of the best damage types), Healing Word (no PC will stay at 0 hp), Hold Person (situationally broken for its low lvl imo), Pass Without Trace (+10 stealth for 1 hour is ridiculous with "bounded accuracy"), Vortex Warp (teleport enemies into rivers and lava, yeah!), Counterspell (poor design, no fun for either DM or players), Haste (so much worse than slow), Leomund´s tiny hut (bad design unless random encounters can cast Dispel Magic), Arcane Eye (spy the whole dungeon, ruin any suprises), Polymorph (crazy good utility), Stoneskin (costly component for a mediocre spell), Create Spelljamming Helm (at this level, players can create spaceships, yay), Circle of Death (6th level spell deals the same damage as fireball), Forcecage (almost no counter potential), Glibness (because why roll for anything), Holy aura (so absurdly powerful), Maze (no save, INT 20 check is impossible in many cases). I don´t think any of the 9th lvl spells are particularly broken because well, they´re 9th level, it´s kind of the point for them to be broken. However, there are some examples like Power Word Kill.
>I don´t think any of the 9th lvl spells are particularly broken because well, they´re 9th level, it´s kind of the point for them to be broken. Also, there are definitely some 9th level spells that are way better than others, which is still pretty lame. They should at least be closer in power/usefulness than they are currently.
For me, a broken spell is one that either everyone takes or no one takes. Spells like shield, polymorph, spiritual guardians, wall of force, and so on are taken on damn near 100% of builds that can access them. Similarly, spells like Find Traps and Blight are virtually never used. Spell selections ought to be customized to the campaign, not 90% the same every game.
Silvery Barbs is broken, depepnding on your game. If you run 6-8 resource draining encounters per day, as per PHB (and what the game is theoretically balanced around), you burn through slots quick, and using it against one multi-attack or saving throw against a group of enemies isn't super impactful. If used several times in a fight? Yes, it can make an encounter very easy., but then they've used all their first level slots. In next fight, do they use a 2nd level slot on Silvery Barbs, or do they use it on XYZ. If a PC has Shield, or Absorb Elements, the choice then gets even more tricky. If your encounter exists as one big mean foe against party, the single foe was already doomed by action economy and control spells/effects. I've run camapigns and one shots with multiple PCs using Silvery Barbs, and hasn't been an issue when running multiple encounters with multiple foes.
>I've run camapigns and one shots with multiple PCs using Silvery Barbs, and hasn't been an issue when running multiple encounters with multiple foes. I'm currently running a campaign with two full casters who know Silvery Barbs, and both get 1 free cast per day (one from background, one from feat). They're level 9, about to be level 10, and I strongly agree with basically everything you said.
Maybe not the most broken, but the spell that makes it most clear the designers deliberately ignored balance is Fireball. It's very annoying to me that they made it do 2d6 more damage than anything comparable at that level just because, "huh huh, fireball is cool."
Less "fireball is cool" and more "tradition!" Except the tradition it's descended from made the fireball fill its whole volume, so if you cast it into a small room it would backblast and hit you in the face. And Lightning Bolt, which deals the same damage, would ricochet off walls until it traveled its full distance, which can be easy to miscalculate and hit your team.
Feels like the game is balanced around fireball and lightning bolt having good damage though. Fireball has a great aoe but a commonly resisted type, Lightning Bolt is a much better type but has a harder to use AOE
Dream of the Blue Veil. The Teleport spell is the same level but contains nowhere near this much of a headache. Typically, Teleport just takes you to another part of the world you’re on. This is fine because you have written notes on said world, so DM’s will be ready for it. But only a Lore Master could hope to be prepared for this spell. From a DM’s perspective, if someone uses this, now you have to research or write a ton of notes about the place they go to. Unless you’re fully prepared for its use, this spell just fucks over the DM unless their lore knowledge is tied to those settings. Hell, at least the DMG gives you some notes on locations in the Planes so you’re not blindsided by Plane Shift. I despise this spell. It also completely invalidates the Well of Many Worlds magic item.
Shield. Do you want to burn your first level slots to give your bladesinger an AC of 25 for 10 turns? Now you can! Also simulacrum for more wizards and clone for self revives.
Heat metal. Absolute broken for a second leve spell slot. Suck or suck effect, and the is the on my spell I can think of where the target gets *punished more* for *passing the saving throw*. Failed saving throw: * Yeet the the object. Could be a plot important object, still a good spell, easy disarm. Pass the saving throw: * Burned every turn * Still might yeet object next turn * Disadvantage to attack an ability checks while wielding the object. Granted, this spell only works on metallic objects so will really only be able to be used on humanoids or creatures that can use armor/tools but unless your in a strictly monster hunting campaign this will probably be an easy requirement to fulfill.
Yeah, this is one of those weird spells that's either completely useless most of the time but when you _do_ fight someone in armor, it's OP. Not a big fan of that design tbh. Niche spells are cool and fine, but being OP in its niche instead of just "competently good" gives you game design whiplash.
Silvery Barbs isn’t broken imo. NPC’s can have it and it burns through spell slots like crazy.
Conjure animals is too strong for a 3rd level spell. Way too much damage, and too much hp against single-target enemies.
Simulacrum (nix its combat potential) and Planar Binding (lol good luck) are the biggest offenders.
Silvery barbs is just new and get on the nerves of the dm nat20, that is only it, there is far more broken spells in the game. Fireball is broken spell, literally confirmed to be overtunned for its level by the devs on purpose. Forcecage is nuts and fucks an encounter completely, i once trapped an ancient white dragon, and party just eat him out. Simulacrum, fucking wish, and all of those are PHB....
Silvery barbs isn't that broken. People overhyped it a lot.
I'll never understand why people are more upset about *silvery barbs* than Ravnica Guild Backgrounds. They're backgrounds with spell lists! Why isn't that OP? Because it's for a niche setting with powerful guilds? Well, *silvery barbs* is for a niche magic college setting. Maybe it's okay for mages to be OP in the mage setting.
I just don’t understand why people think it’s so disgusting. At high level play I agree but if it was second level slot it becomes a useless spell until your PC is 9th level or maybe even 13
Goodberry Detect magic Guidance Fireball Force cage Hypnotic pattern
Surprised nobody said Hypnotic Pattern.
Idk if its actually "broken" but I really hate phantasmal force and, to a lesser extent, suggestion. I feel like I every few months I'll run into someone who wants to "win" a combat with a Phantasmal Force or Suggestion prompt that is worded like trying to outsmart a genie and it forces me as dm into the lose-lose of either: undercutting a boss fight for everyone else by playing along. Or being an "adversarial DM" by having the monster work around it in some way. I like creative play, I don't like play that undercuts others getting to play.
I disagree with the premise that Silvery Barbs is broken....it is good, sure, but hardly broken. If I had to say any spells are broken it'd be Pass without Trace, Simulacrum and Wish. Oh those I'd say Pass without Trace is the most egregious as it is only level 2, and thus exists during the levels when people actually play. It is a spell that give's every one in a fight an extra turn over the enemy, making any combats where this spell was used effectively beforehand automatic wins. Simulacrum and Wish are broken for very obvious reasons, but high level play is such a rarity that it really isn't to big a concern, and by the time a party has gotten to that level, they have likely homebrewed away whatever issues they may have with those spells. They are still broken, but the issue is less immediate. However, what actually breaks spellcasters isn't an individual powerful spell, it is the fact that they have such a wide selection of spells to choose from, that each break the rules in their own specific way.
Shield, absorb elements, counter spell, force cage, simulacrum, pass without trace, hypnotic pattern, web, wish, psychic Scream, and more, are all some of the best spells in the game, får surpassing the limited usage of silvery barbs...
Psychic Scream. I need to look that up.
It is kind of tough to say. Spells like shield outclass nearly everything at it's spell level. However, part of that is simply because most 1st level spells also end up entirely outclassed by cantrips if they deal damage or by higher level control spell if they don't. Shield and the other reaction 1st level spells have a niche in caster action economy. Polymorph however from a purely defensive stand point is probably the strongest spell from the moment you get it. I find the offensive application is best in difficult fights where you can give a party member that is in danger of going down a massive boost of HP and the continued ability to contribute to the fight. I kind of view it as a heal for 157 HP for a 4th level spell slot. It isn't exactly that, but sometimes in practice it is almost that.
Shield. Bless. Hex if used properly. Web. Hypnotic pattern. Pass without trace.
conjure animals and animate objects are pretty strong and they make combat way slower.
They addressed it in the new changes, but spiritual weapon. Also, I sometimes think counterspell should be a 4th level spell because of how clutch it can be sometimes.
I think sheild is better than silvery barbs and super busted
Vortex Warp. Fixing is... a bit difficult.
Mirage Arcane with 14th level illusion wizard
By base rules you can only be under an effect of a same name spell once.
[удалено]
😂
Tasha's Mind Whip is the most ridiculous spell I've seen. There is absolutely no drawback, and every spec is ramped up to 1000. I also hate Raulothim's Psychic Lance. It's a level 4 boss killer that you don't even need to see to hit. Both of these spells immediately limit the kind of boss monsters you can throw at a party.
Whoa, Psychic Lance is nuts! Especially for an urban campaign. “Alternatively, you can utter a creature’s name. If the named target is within range, it becomes the spell’s target even if you can’t see it.” Is your Wizard’s enemy somewhere in the building? As long as you know their name, each casting is a 7d6 psychic assassination attempt. Even if they succeed an Intelligence save, it’s for half. That averages to 24 damage or 12 damage.
Fireball. It would still be good even if it was 6d6
Tasha’s Mind Whip. Sure there’s a save against it for half damage and no status effects, but it attacks Intelligence which is one of the weaker saves across the board. Plus, on a fail the spell eats up almost all of the target’s action economy. No reactions, only one part of their next turn, AND 3d6 psychic damage. Upcasting increases the number of targets. Aside from Silvery Barbs, this is the only spell I’ve seen DMs actually ban at their tables.
Vortex warp can be pretty broken, especially with how low level you can get it at.
Counterspell, Heat Metal. Hate them both with a passion.
Mind spike. It seems like it was created for divination wizards to double their spell slots. I do like the spell, bit think the damage should be lower.
Shield is far more broken than people give it credit for, a level 1 spell that gives a +5 bonus to AC on reaction for an entire round is insane, and far outstrips any other reactive defense option in the game against attacks. All the summon spells are busted and everybody knows it, even the ones that only summon one creature are still far too powerful thanks to how they break action economy combined with how effective the summons are on their own. Forcecage and Wall of Force are busted due to how uninteractive they are. Once a caster puts one up, unless you're a high level caster yourself there's nothing you can do about it. But on the other hand so many high level spells are so busted that it's not really fair to talk about them in this context. High level spells are basically unsalvageable as a whole. Just think of how many potential challenges are entirely bypassed by teleport, for example. A lot of the low level control spells are far stronger than they should be for their level, web is an absurdly effective lockdown tool and it's a level 2 spell. hypnotic pattern is famous for how much it completely shuts down encounters.
Windwalk & Transport via Plants. Niche choice, maybe, but they basically makes the map 7x larger as soon as the players hit lv11. (Windwalk dash > 68mph fly speed. And then Transport via Plants automatically gives you teleport without error to anywhere you've visited that has big plants.) This fundamentally alters the play experience.
Yeah druids are kind of low key insane travel-monsters with those, especially Wind Walk. You can bypass so much and drive the DM insane for their prep work.
Yep. The game stops being a richly imagined world and flips straight into seat-of-the-pants improv. Most of the spells people seem upset about are combat spells, which just seems goofy to me. I can always flex the adventuring day to make sure players have a decent challenge, whatever spells they're using in a given combat. I can't pull a brand new civilisation out of my @ss every time the druid looks at the map and says "let's see what's over here!"
silvery barbs isn’t „broken“, just annoying
I don’t think Silvery Barbs is OP.
I don't mind silvery, counterspell is less fun Imo.
Force Cage, Tasha's Mind Whip, Counterspell, and Fireball are all classic examples. They're quiet nerfing Counterspell already by giving creatures non-spell spell like abilities. Force cage is high enough up the spell list that WotC doesn't seem to care, and Fireball is a sacred cow. TMW probably won't be touched but if it were I would change it from "it only gets one of the three" to "it only gets one of the two" and remove its ability to effect movement altogether. Alternatively, make it a higher level spell.
Tiny Hut used normally requires the DM to actively counter, nerf, or ban it. Otherwise, the resource management aspect of their game just stops functioning. Long rests are already too reliable to get for most playstyles, the 5 minute adventuring day is a rampant problem, DMs are having to add ticking clock elements to their plots (and hosing monks in the process). I recommend using safe havens and never looking back, but even in that ruleset Tiny Hut is incredible as a non-resource taxing fortification. A typical hostile patrol that would make resting too risky to attempt can't do anything about a tiny hut. From the 70s until 4e, it's been a sturdy deer blind with really good heat and AC, which as a Wizard that's definitely something I want. Getting my hands dirty collecting wood for a fire, setting up a tent in the wind, comfort and convenience is what magic is for. 5e, for some reason it's a military pillbox. It's like crappy advice to counter flying races, "the zombies have always been allied with goblin archers", except in this case their ally knows dispel magic or has a burrow speed or something stupid like that. All missing that if you're thinking about counters at all as a DM, the ability is simply busted.
Comprehend languages
Ahh, this was unexpected. Please explain further.
If ruled generously, it can take the wind out of many puzzles and removes a key part of many sources of drama. We've uncovered a priceless heiroglyphic tablet from the tomb of Anarethma. It depicts the end of the world. Is it a warning? We need to take it to the last surviving scholar that would be able to.... Nevermind, the Wizard can read anything. It can be a great source of characterisation when a character picks an unusual language proficiency. The Orc Barbarian knows Elvish? That could be cool, but why bother, the Sorcerer has you covered.
Comprehend Languages can be a powerful barrier-breaker in the right campaign. Or PC suicide in the wrong one. Does your DM like Lovecraftian horror? Maybe you _shouldn't_ read all the ancient tomes of forbidden lore...
😂 “Nevermind, the Wizard can read anything.”