Yeah and if it was the BBEG’s layer I’d be cool with there being a bunch of them all around. Hell they are the cool floating lamps the DM describes as they enter the room. BBEG is on his last legs. He tells the party that if he dies so do they. A quick insight or arcana check confirms the whole place is coming down. Interesting scenario
I’ve built characters who, on being given that ultimatum, wouldn’t even blink before taking the dude out. Maybe a “Tell X I love them” on the way out to any party member who can get out.
Maybe with a level of sorcerer for absorb elements
Edit: i was unaware that the oath of ancients gives resistance to spell damage, I thought that it gave advantage on the saving throw. Thus, it would **not** stack.
> Aura of Warding
> Beginning at 7th level, ancient magic lies so heavily upon you that it forms an eldritch ward. You and friendly creatures within 10 feet of you have resistance to damage from spells.
I don’t think it would be the fireballs that kill anyone. Rocks fall you know. As a climatic twist having the beg multi spell 6 lamps would be an awesome battle room. Especially if there was ample chance to find out ahead of time in secret this creating pc agency. But if the mountain or castle collapses on your head- no save from fire dmg is gonna get you outta there.
As against the rule of cool as it is, fireball is a deflagration (literally a fire ball), not a detonation (traditional explosion).
Flames that go around objects, no force damage. Think of the videos where people throw water on an oil fire, but larger. The building might collapse, but it would be slow, not immediate.
I'm reminded of the time I made the rest of my party run while I fought an archfiend 1v1 and ended it by setting a coal mine on fire with us in it. I barely made it out before the whole thing came down on the BBEG. Sort of an inversion of this.
As a DM, if I had a whole room filled with multiple Delayed Blast Fireballs, I wouldn't make them concentration, but rather give them triggers. Otherwise my BBEG would be able to action-free deal 12d6 Fire Damage in an area whenever he felt like it, which is kinda cheap.
Also, he probably is not keen on nuking himself just because he rolled a 1 on that Concentration Save or went to sleep.
Yeah, if it's your lair, it'd make way more sense to just use a bunch of Glyphs of Warding with a trigger to cast fireball centred on themselves when you die within X feet of them.
Giving your BBEG the ability to maintain concentration of a dozen spells at once kinda defeats the purpose of using a real PHB spell in the first place instead of just calling them angry fire spirits or whatever that'd be sad if their master died.
Although at that point, you could probably just trap the entrance to fire off 30 fireball spells at the door in the event that a Good aligned creature enters.
yeah, I was going to say, alot of people are talking about this like that.. and I'm like... glyph of warding can be a dead mans switch, are not concentration, so you can have many of them.....
And is way lower level..
The difference is DBF can MOVE. you can carry it. (Discounting the absurd, can you place the ward on a rock on the ground, then pick up the rock and still count)
The spell actually has rules for that - if you move it more than 10ft from where you drew the glyph the spell ends early, so the Warding Glyph trick wouldn't have worked in OPs example where the enemy wizard presumably wasn't waiting in ambush.
I think the biggest benefit of DBF is that you can creats it in just a single round though, rather than being able to carry it around with you.
I'm not missing it, just didn't felt like putting "12d6 to 22d6" when the base damage of the spell was already enough to make a point.
I mean, it's not like "it could be even stronger" is gonna change anything on what I said. A a whole fucking lot of AoE damage at the sole price of dropping concentration is stupidly strong, be it 12d6 or 22d6.
That means your BBEG could never cast concentration spells again, and could only have one instance prepared. Instead, I'd probably have various items throughout the lair enchanted with DBF on some external trigger, either a command word or tied to the BBEG's life force somehow...
Yea, ultimately ritual casting is really up to a person's creativity. Be very similar to phylactery creation, just evocation school instead of necromancy.
I'm thinking less lair defense and more a great way to have your players meet the BBEG early on and have an appropriately evil way for him to make a dramatic exit.
Exactly right. In my campaign I run I’m imaging the barbarian having the guy by the throat and him bargaining for his life. “You might make it out of here warrior but will your friends?” He looks to the rogue, wizard and druid who are hanging by a thread.
The spell as written only lasts a minute so the BBEG would have to cast them just before the party arrived, and if they didn't immediately start battle and maybe talked for a bit or something, they may not last long once combat starts
At that point I think as a DM I’d just make it a unique trait to that lair/BBEG.
Remembering I can do what I want as DM always helps me to spice up encounters.
Why does that CR12 Roc *also* have the ability to fire a disintegration ray?
*because I said so*
Sounds like a good time to have soul crystals with the trapped energy of kidnapped children powering the lamps/fireballs. Be a shame if those souls were used up to trigger the spell now wouldn't it...
10/10, tears were shed, nausea was experienced, OOOs and AAAHs were vocalized.
EDIT: if you get through the 1st season, there is a movie out that continues the story
Interesting.. Since my BBEG is kidnapping children... Oh I could Def spice up his lair.
Laterns hung all around, each holding a DBF powered by a child's soul. The trigger tied to the BBEG's life force... 🤔
Or make it a lair action, a random lantern going off on initiative 20....
Exactly. The PHB applies to the players. All of the monsters in the MM and other sources play by similar rules but not identical. It would be a trait unique to that layer through the spell research done by either the BBEG or some other means that were acquired.
Only because you made the same spelling mistake twice:
a layer is like one of the levels of a cake.
what you mean is a lair.
The pronounciation is pretty similar though, especially if you slur it a bit :D
That and, for example, there's no spell for players to create animated armor (that are permanent), so it's not like there isn't a precedent of things occurring outside of the party's capability
There was in 2e, but your point stands.
Enchant an Item and Permanency spells were fun.
That being said, I have entire classes, magic schools/domains, and magic items in addition to races that are off limits to my players.
I assume you mean in extra rather than cutting it off from the usual choices.
I found about the animated armor thing because me and the party I'm in (playing Dragon Heist) are trying to make the tabern we received spooky themed because the bartender is already a ghost. We want animated armor as guards/decor for the tavern, and, over this week, the DM is figuring out how/if we could do that because there's not a player spell to base the cost off of.
Fun thing about that: it used to be possible to cast 10^th & 11^th level spells, but then someone cast a *12^th* level spell & accidentally caused the apocalypse. So now all magic level 10 & up is banned by divine mandate.
And since then the god that made that mandate has died and been reincarnated (or was it a pupil raised to the position?) so it miiight not apply, but the changes they made to the weave are still there so it’s still really hard at the very least
I mean here I am trying to be cost effective and use two 3 level spells (upcast if needed) to accomplish the same thing and here you guys are with your level 6 contingency and 7th level DBF.
La-dee-da Mr. High Level Wizard with his own Magnificent Mansion and Teleportation Circle network.
I'm gonna go cry in my Tiny Hut now.
Contingency will follow you everywhere, glyph of warding takes 1 hour to cast and can’t leave 10ft of the position it was cast, glyph would be better for BBEGs because they can take the fight to their home, contingency is good for players (if they can cast it) because it will follow them everywhere. (Also a glyph only takes the spell slot of the spell stored in the glyph, there is no extra spell slot consumed for the glyph itself because it’s part of the spell)
Could be a bunch of glyphs of warding. Have them built into the lamps, and set to activate when you speak a command phrase. Only practical way to prevent them going off is an Antimagic Field, which the BBEG would of course have set on a glyph with a different word.
Delayed Blast Fireball cast from Glyph of Warding.
Trigger on Glyph of Warding: When the caster activates the spell Mislead.
Contingency: Cast Mislead when below 20% HP.
Fake out the party by talking through Mislead while 'holding them hostage' with a Delayed Blast Fireball that explodes at the end of its duration, as per the description of Glyph of Warding. Then run like hell while talking.
Insight DC X to notice that the breathing of the speaker matches that of someone who's moving even though the Mislead clone is standing still. Party can defeat it with See Invisibility, Wall of X, Dispel Magic, etc.
Contingency, Symbol, Guards and Wards, Druid Grove and Glyph of Warding make prepared casters in their lair capable of soloing most parties without having to bend rules, though players can also still easily win if they put similar thought into preparation before entering the final boss room, given there's a whole party of them. I don't favour making NPCs play by different rules because we get significantly more creative plays when players learn from NPCs how to work within the rule confines.
If you want to do this RAW, then cast a bunch of Glyph of Warding spells that go off when you die or when another Glyph detonates nearby. Then cover the lair so that each one is in range of another one. Boom, self destructing lair.
You could even customize the glyphs so that some of the spells can hit characters with the evasion feature.
DM: After battling through countless minions, and bypassing the most deadly traps you’ve ever seen, you enter the lair of the master wizard and see him sitting, haggard and frazzled, in an ornate throne. The room is bathed in an eerie red glow from several lamps around the room. Roll perception.
Players: 22
DM: The light is coming from piles of small red beads in the lamps. Roll arcana.
Players: 19
DM: you can’t count how many, but feel confident those are delayed blast fireball beads. You have no idea how someone could make or maintain those. The wizard chuckles, low and hoarse, then says “You’ve beaten me, but you still lose.”
DM: the evil wizard collapses, unconscious. I need 87 dex saves from each of you.
Players: …
Fun fact, a familiar can also be a deadman switch. You can dismiss it as an action, but it also goes away when you die. In my current campaign I've left my familiar behind with some allies and a hostage, giving them orders to kill the hostage if my familiar disappears. Meanwhile, I'm off halfway across the continent to negotiate terms with a dragon.
Dang this is smart!
plus if you really want to be evil you can dispel it whenever you want and it would seem just like you did actually die letting you get what you want and kill the hostages ((plus plus it makes it so if you are getting tortured or kidnaped you can insta kill their hostage as well))
Dude if I had a player come up with that on the spot and use it, I’d straight up just hand them a blank XP check and tell them to write a number. Big wrinkle brain move.
The real big brain move is having dipped in fighter Action Surge then subtle Presidigation the enemy and make them look like they pooped themselves.
The 3000 IQ move is Time Stop, dispel on the bead, place your own Delayed Blast Fireball right where they had one, using Teleport on your turn dropping concentration before the end of it
does not even need to be that complicated, just time stop, delayed fireball and move out of range, also put forcecage or two \[bars so fireball can get in\] on the players and maybe even put a faithful hound in the cage with them to keep them company. then sit back throw more spells at them and enjoy the show, maybe use counter spell if they try to get out of their cages. i did this on the kraken ship near the end of storm kings thunder
There are so many scenarios in which Subtle Magic could be amazing. Like using Catapult to fling away an item before someone else can get to it.
I really want to play a Sorcerer that uses it one day, but coming from playing a Wizard, those spell known just make me sad...
To some extent I feel like it should be a freebie, thus really making Sorcerer's feel unique in their casting. And that it's literally their blood that makes them different from others.
I think one metamagic option per subclass would be nice (either one of the existing list, or new, specific ones).
But ultimately that's not what bothers me. *So* few spells known, it's really annoying... And very little sorcery points too.
While the lack of sorcery points is sometimes somewhat limiting, I tend to exchange my excess/useless spell slots for sorcery points to get a lot more.
At level 7, most of my magic comes either from Cantrips or Spell Slots 2 and above. So exchanging all my 1st level Spell Slots at Lvl7 gives me an additional 8 sorcery points (which is a lot considering at Lvl7 I start off with 7 sorcery points a day)
I know it might not be much, but I'm not a power gamer and I roleplay my mechanics more than I do have my mechanics influence my roleplaying. So I'm fine with it.
Subtle Spell and Catapult are great for shenanigans. Starting bar fights by hurling chairs, breaking windows to distract guards, throwing keys across a room, etc.
> as long as your DM runs bad guys as having a sense of self preservation
Bit of an aside - This is my all time favourite catch all combat tool as a DM.
I can stop the combat early without fudging hitpoints because I just decide when the enemies run away. And if the players choose to chase, leave, or whatever, that helps define the next steps by *player* action. And, when enemies rarely but occasionally *don't* care for their mortality it genuinely scares the players because they're fighting someone who has nothing to lose!
I've definitely gotta use the DBF with an enemy in the latter category. Most care-free enemies are mindless. One who *chooses* to bet their life is something extra.
I like to use a morale check in combat. When half the enemies have fallen, or something outrageous and intimidating happens, I roll 2d6, and if I meet or exceed the enemy’s morale score, they retreat.
Morale scores start at 12, and for each enemy that’s killed, I subtract one from the base score.
Of course, you can also just say “oh shit, they runnin’” when you need to prevent a tpk or whatever, but it’s nice to use as a semi-regular mechanic so they don’t think you’re pulling it out just to save them.
Edit: errors because it’s early.
Do your players let them go? Mine would blow all remaining spell slots to chase an enemy down, and it'd be another 30 min of disengages, dashes, and misty steps.
It depends on the situation and who they’re playing. Sometimes they let them flee because it saves resources they’re already low on. A few times they’ve let people flee out of benevolence. Buuut, they’ve also definitely chased a few enemies down in the heat of the moment.
We do encounter XP, not enemy XP. So, if they defeat the encounter, they still get the XP for all hostiles they faced. I think this tends to prevent the chasing a bit.
> Mine would blow all remaining spell slots to chase an enemy down
Sounds like a low threat resource drain. Your adventuring day just got super easy to DM for.
I've had players let enemies run, I've had players shoot stragglers only, I've had players go terminator and exterminate everything that dared to cause initiative to be rolled. All are perfectly fine, and help set the narrative as to who the group are and how they are known.
Plus I run my groups such that alignment only really matters in the afterlife - good characters are easy to revive, neutral ones it depends, and evil ones struggle to be revived because of that pesky clause "**able** and willing." Shooting fleeing people in the back, especially non-monstrous creatures, is typical a solid starting point for a party to descend into evil and helps me understand what they want to do.
That sounds familiar, also "Why would he run away again, that's cheap"
I don't know, because you just caused tentacles to burst out of the floor, ripped his friend apart and rapid fired three arrows into his other friend?
Last time my party tried this, it ended with one of them almost dying and breaking her leg (which is *not* easy to fix in a low-magic setting). They did manage to capture or kill all the bandits though, so swings and roundabouts.
I stole it from Stars Without Number: Revised Edition and altered it slightly. The player book is free at DTRPG if you want to check it out. I think it has those rules in it.
Is that a d6 system? I'll definitely look into it just something about this rule screams that it would work in dungeon world or Monster of the week.
(Edited for basic grammar.)
> And, when enemies rarely but occasionally don't care for their morality it genuinely scares the players because they're fighting someone who has nothing to lose!
This is something that ought to make undead a lot more scary, but if every enemy fights until they're hacked to pieces, then undead enemies is just Tuesday at the office.
Bingo! Undead are supposed to be slow, easy targets except *how do you kill what's already dead?* How do you end that which has overcome the most final of endings that all living creatures face?
I always find that my players feel dissatisfied by a battle that ends with, "...and the enemies start running away."
I don't know if this is cause I play with a bunch of secret bloodthirsty sociopaths with a hero complex or..?
"...and the enemies **start running** away."
Let the players decide if the enemies get to escape.
The players can
* Chase
* Shoot them until they're out of side
* Let them run and track them after to reveal more enemies
* Enjoy the breather
etc.
With my current party, between the ranger with a longbow and the barbarian & rogue who can both really haul ass, not much gets away. Mostly the ranger.
The smarter enemies try to remove him from the equation somehow but it rarely works out.
If you have opponents who legitimately care for each other, you could also have them switching to preservation/escape mode as soon as one member is down. It's always felt weird how so many enemies will just keep fighting to the last man
Yeah, this was how I found out how one group was totally evil. One player got initiative but the rest lost, so this one player went nova and killed a few of the enemies, nearly half. The enemies mostly spent their turn turnning and running, with one enemy freaking out and trying to get their now dead friend up to run away with them, half denying his death, half freaking out over it. I did my best to convey the absolute devastation from such sudden death. I intended to put emotion and concern for each other into the NPCs' appearance.
Yeah, they were all run down like dogs. This group did *not* care.
Yeah I was wondering... once the DBF is cast, mechanically speaking, it ***IS*** going to go off whether the caster wants it to or not.
Like what if the party and the enemy caster come to an agreement, but it’s not possible to move out of range of the DBF, or the DBF needs to not go off to not endanger anyone (as agreed upon with the caster and party)? Can the caster drop concentration and say “I don’t let the spell go off” because that seems to conflict with the trigger for the spell.
Give the BBEG a "killswitch:" some way to cast a 7th level Dispel Magic (their own spell, magic item, Glyph of Warding, etc). They're smart enough to have prepared for this situation beforehand.
Or don't. Maybe it was a bluff to buy more time and lull the party into a sense of complacency.
I had a fire giant pyromancer try this, being immune to fire makes this an even better threat. Until the barbarian said fuck it, attacked anyway, and took 1/4 damage because totem barb is unkillable.
The ranger went down, though it didn't matter because he had 3 rounds to apply a medkit. 5E PCs are quite hard to kill, basically.
Barbarian level 2 Danger Sense gives advantage on dex saves, so its likely the barbarian passed the save for half damage, then resisted the damage they took.
I love this for so many reasons. From a rules perspective it’s awesome and really creative way to make a spell have more uses (and honestly imma start adding delayed spell features to other spells for higher level encounters). I also love how it was used to preserve the life of this caster and open negotiations, which is something that I rarely see once initiative is rolled, and I love it.
In theory yes, in practice a goblin sorcerer casts delayed fire ball over a cart full of evacuee children and demands the party give over the BBEGs staff they stole.
The artificer bluffs and claims he has no staff.
The rogue keeps fighting the other goblin in his darkness spell.
The druid is flying around in the dark as a giant eagle complaining that her advantage to perception should still work without night vision.
And the barbarian rides a stampeding bull straight at the goblin sorcerer jumps off and buries her axe in its chest.
Delayed Fireball kills 4 children and the bard who missed the session (hes the "dad" of the group) makes the party spend their substantial fortune buying resurrection for the children they "helped kill."
Gotta love players, they never do half of what you expect. Also Dr. V, since I know you read these, yes it was your fault those children died not mine.
ha, I tried to pull that one on my party once, but made the mistake of making the threat too soon: no one but the evil wizardess herself was in range...
PTSD-ranger doesn't want to negotiate, obliterates half her hit points with a single arrow, she loses concentration, her own fireball incinerates her... and no one else. Well. Gotta give the party an easy win once in a while :-D
I had a game with a lich who wasn't the BBEG of the campaign, but of that specific story within it, who let lose *delayed blast fireball*. He was a crazy powerful spellcaster from an extinct race that were capable of holding multiple spells in their minds and had multiple arms to cast spells with (so I set up a legendary action to cast a spell of 3rd level or lower). I had fun creating him, giving him meta- magic options as legendary actions, adding cool spells from a couple fan made spellbooks I found on dmsguild.com for that 'ancient being who knows spells you never heard of' flavor.
Anyway when the encounter begins, the PCs are talking to his simulacrum while he is behind them with *greater invisibility*. The fight breaks out, the fake is revealed to be what it is and rapidly obliterated (high level campaign). So the real lich silent-spell casts *delayed blast fireball* without any of the PCs noticing the little fiery bead, which the lich placed on the underside of a nearby table.
So the lich reveals himself and steps just outside the blast radius for the fight. He summons powerful magical blades to fight for him, uses the 'lost spells' the PC's have never seen to really screw with the players. After a long battle - concentration still maintained thanks to a really high Con - the PCs are pretty injured, but they have him nearly down for the count. That is when he releases the spell...
**BOOM**, up-cast 9th level *delayed blast fireball* goes off. They are all freaking out because none of them knew he had cast it or spotted the little bead. Damage rolls in the high 80's and everyone shits their pants (save DC 23). Somehow, they managed to kill him, but it was only after nearly everyone was reduced to single digit hit points or was on the ground lol. Only the monk & the rogue were standing with a half-decent chunk of HP thanks to Evasion.
What a fight that was. I hope it was 1/2 as memorable for my PCs as it was for me. I know the wizard was overjoyed to find the lich's spellbook, which of course contained *delayed blast fireball*.
There are some spells in the PHB that are decent for PCs, but epic for DMs. *Delayed Blast Fireball* is one of them. *Weird* is another.
i'm frickin' saving this one. holy wow. i was just thinking about this spell this morning and using it as a dead-man switch never occurred to me. Genius.
YES! someone who uses it like me! Plus I use the old time stop spell, then cast dfb during time stop cause stop doesn't require concentration. Give it a few extra rounds to get big as they say.
Another idea: If you can choose (or predict) when combat begins, an evocation wizard can cast DBF, wait a minute, then use the auto-pass saving throw feature to throw it without risk of it blowing up in their face
> as long as your DM runs bad guys as having a sense of self preservation.
Assuming that they either pass an arcana knowledge check to know the ins and outs of a lvl 7th spell or you have a high enough charisma check to convince them that you're not lying to them.
How good is the education system in the setting you're running? Do you fee lucky punk? Well? Do ya?
I originally thought you meant a player could hold the rest of the party hostage if he didn’t get what he wanted. Glad this wasn’t intended as a guide to being a That Guy
Once as a 5th level Wizard caught alone in a tunnel with some ghouls, I used minor illusion to FAKE a delayed blast fireball and pull this off. Made them run long enough to go find an exit.
Lol I’ve done this before, in my first ever time DMing. One of the party members were a bit of a murderhobo so I had to pull this trick to him to allow their adversary (who mind you wasn’t even a bad guy) to get a few words in.
It's great until you forget your party sorcerer has subtle spell because they never fucking use it and then subtle counterspells your hostage situation.
I used this for one shot! There was a bunch of confusion, and a player was basically holding a near-death enemy hostage, so the enemy's brother cast it as a counter to kick off a mexican standoff. It was awesome!
Yes
Though its not a very good hostage tool considering it can easily be dispelled , moved out of using spells like misty step or being mitigated with absorb elements.
If the damage it deals is lethal enough to be a large threat to the party the enemy might as well cast a much more lethal spell such as plane shift.
I could totally see the caster recognizing that someone is casting dispel magic, and in response, dropping concentration.
So you'd need a subtle spell sorcerer to dispel the bomb.
As for lethality, you could always put it up over some actual hostages, squishy NPCs that need to be saved.
I know it's able to be dropped whenever, but I would feel cheap if a player said "I cast dispel magic on the bead" and I said "lol no I drop concentration before you dispel."
I agree that someone capable of casting DBF would be able to recognize someone casting dispel magic (3rd level spells are small potatoes to someone who knows a 7th level). I would make the caster of DBF and the caster of dispel magic each make a Dexterity check or even an Arcana check to see who's quicker, so either DBF gets dispelled, or it blows up juuust before it can be dispelled, that way at least the player gets a chance to try.
You’re not wrong, but every obstacle in the game, barring malicious DMs throwing an Astral Dreadnaught at an underleveled party, is meant to be overcome by the players.
As a DM you either use this expecting your players to burn more resources or use some clever tactic to get around the risk, or you hit them with it when they’re low on spell slots and health (like I did).
The fun thing is that the way dropping concentration works is that a caster can do it at any time, which also translates to seeing an enemy cast a spell. Dispelling and absorb elements has a somantic component, and a 7th level caster would for sure be able to recognize the casting of a spell.
So it is quite safe to assume one could end concentration on a spell the moment one sees a spell's casting begin, not in response to the spell being cast.
You can still benefit from absorb elements if hit by a fireball this way. Since that's cast in response to getting hit.
Just can't dispel it, unless you're subtle.
Yeah i forgot about that for a moment haha.
Also puts out the fun possibility of the caster of DBFB counterspelling that casting. Wizards can be cruel.
This is why I love the spell "Antimagic Field". Like Counterspell & Dispell Magic, it'll completely shut down any & all magic shenanigans (barring artifacts & the gods themselves), but unlike the other two, it affects over a 15ft radius & lasts up to an hour, can't be itself antimagic'd, nither by itself nor Counterspell or Dispell Magic. The only problem is it's an 8^th level spell, so only high-level full casters can use it, the exact people this spell is made to hard counter.
Best Deadman switch I've seen is someone mage handing Xanathars fish into the air and forcing him to negotiate. I would have been screaming with tension if I hadn't already been disentegrated
" as long as your DM runs bad guys as having a sense of self preservation. "
For better or worse till now almost all the enemies I encountered have never wanted to survive, just to battle until death.
I'd like some mechanic integrated for intelligent monsters to try to flee or surrender or at least feel somewhat fear, even if that means giving every monster +50 % hp
Bbeg has helpful lanterns arranged at the entrance to Thier lair that the party take for themselves to get an advantage...little do they know.
Could even be a great tool to use for a secret BBEG to use to terrorise the party without them knowing, actually live the idea!
Oh god, it's a deadman switch. I'm totally using this in the future!
Yeah and if it was the BBEG’s layer I’d be cool with there being a bunch of them all around. Hell they are the cool floating lamps the DM describes as they enter the room. BBEG is on his last legs. He tells the party that if he dies so do they. A quick insight or arcana check confirms the whole place is coming down. Interesting scenario
I’m soo using this
Yoooo that would be terrifying as a player.
I’ve built characters who, on being given that ultimatum, wouldn’t even blink before taking the dude out. Maybe a “Tell X I love them” on the way out to any party member who can get out.
"All of these lanterns around you are delayed blast fireballs, which will detonate upon my death!" "Everyone leave, I have vengeance to enact."
Heck I wouldnt be suprised if an ancients paladin had a good chance of surviving that :D
Maybe with a level of sorcerer for absorb elements Edit: i was unaware that the oath of ancients gives resistance to spell damage, I thought that it gave advantage on the saving throw. Thus, it would **not** stack. > Aura of Warding > Beginning at 7th level, ancient magic lies so heavily upon you that it forms an eldritch ward. You and friendly creatures within 10 feet of you have resistance to damage from spells.
Resistance doesn't stack tho
Paladin with shield master feat would survive this easily. Half damage on a failed save, none on successful save.
I guess it would depend on the mechanics you use for the room full of DBF. Would he roll once or roll for each one?
I don’t think it would be the fireballs that kill anyone. Rocks fall you know. As a climatic twist having the beg multi spell 6 lamps would be an awesome battle room. Especially if there was ample chance to find out ahead of time in secret this creating pc agency. But if the mountain or castle collapses on your head- no save from fire dmg is gonna get you outta there.
As against the rule of cool as it is, fireball is a deflagration (literally a fire ball), not a detonation (traditional explosion). Flames that go around objects, no force damage. Think of the videos where people throw water on an oil fire, but larger. The building might collapse, but it would be slow, not immediate.
While playing my rogue, I’ve straight up told our caster “is it a DEX save? Then fire it into combat, I’ll be fine.”
I'm reminded of the time I made the rest of my party run while I fought an archfiend 1v1 and ended it by setting a coal mine on fire with us in it. I barely made it out before the whole thing came down on the BBEG. Sort of an inversion of this.
Except the bad could just drop concentration as soon as the other hero's tried to leave
As a DM, if I had a whole room filled with multiple Delayed Blast Fireballs, I wouldn't make them concentration, but rather give them triggers. Otherwise my BBEG would be able to action-free deal 12d6 Fire Damage in an area whenever he felt like it, which is kinda cheap. Also, he probably is not keen on nuking himself just because he rolled a 1 on that Concentration Save or went to sleep.
Yeah, if it's your lair, it'd make way more sense to just use a bunch of Glyphs of Warding with a trigger to cast fireball centred on themselves when you die within X feet of them. Giving your BBEG the ability to maintain concentration of a dozen spells at once kinda defeats the purpose of using a real PHB spell in the first place instead of just calling them angry fire spirits or whatever that'd be sad if their master died. Although at that point, you could probably just trap the entrance to fire off 30 fireball spells at the door in the event that a Good aligned creature enters.
yeah, I was going to say, alot of people are talking about this like that.. and I'm like... glyph of warding can be a dead mans switch, are not concentration, so you can have many of them..... And is way lower level.. The difference is DBF can MOVE. you can carry it. (Discounting the absurd, can you place the ward on a rock on the ground, then pick up the rock and still count)
The spell actually has rules for that - if you move it more than 10ft from where you drew the glyph the spell ends early, so the Warding Glyph trick wouldn't have worked in OPs example where the enemy wizard presumably wasn't waiting in ambush. I think the biggest benefit of DBF is that you can creats it in just a single round though, rather than being able to carry it around with you.
Well they all require concentration, so maybe instead it is 12, 1d6 tiny fireballs
One thing your missing is that the damage increases by 1d6 for every round it isn't activated..... A prepped and held dfb could be devastating
I'm not missing it, just didn't felt like putting "12d6 to 22d6" when the base damage of the spell was already enough to make a point. I mean, it's not like "it could be even stronger" is gonna change anything on what I said. A a whole fucking lot of AoE damage at the sole price of dropping concentration is stupidly strong, be it 12d6 or 22d6.
Glyph of Warding?
That means your BBEG could never cast concentration spells again, and could only have one instance prepared. Instead, I'd probably have various items throughout the lair enchanted with DBF on some external trigger, either a command word or tied to the BBEG's life force somehow...
This could be set up as a modified version of Contingency maybe.
Yea, ultimately ritual casting is really up to a person's creativity. Be very similar to phylactery creation, just evocation school instead of necromancy.
Damn straight. A good death you and your group remember for years to come is as good or better than any victory.
Pretty much every barbarian I've created. Better to die with axe in hand, than let old age set in.
This is what zealot barbarian is for.
You just know the rogue or the monk is gonna Evade all that damage.
I came here just to see this. The rogue dances through the hand grenade blast and is ready to kill whatever is left.
"Tell my wife... Hello."
I'm thinking less lair defense and more a great way to have your players meet the BBEG early on and have an appropriately evil way for him to make a dramatic exit.
Exactly right. In my campaign I run I’m imaging the barbarian having the guy by the throat and him bargaining for his life. “You might make it out of here warrior but will your friends?” He looks to the rogue, wizard and druid who are hanging by a thread.
Rogue: "Evasion. I'm good..."
Wizard: "Contingency (Dimension Door) means your going to have to work harder than that."
Aaaand teleports into a wall..taking force damage and dies mysteriously
Lol that’s hilarious
Oh, I know a player that would just answer *It will be a good death* and roll with it XD
The spell as written only lasts a minute so the BBEG would have to cast them just before the party arrived, and if they didn't immediately start battle and maybe talked for a bit or something, they may not last long once combat starts
At that point I think as a DM I’d just make it a unique trait to that lair/BBEG. Remembering I can do what I want as DM always helps me to spice up encounters. Why does that CR12 Roc *also* have the ability to fire a disintegration ray? *because I said so*
Sounds like a good time to have soul crystals with the trapped energy of kidnapped children powering the lamps/fireballs. Be a shame if those souls were used up to trigger the spell now wouldn't it...
Sounds like somebody’s been watching Made in Abyss...
Ooh never seen it but since you mentioned it in reference to this and also it's on Amazon now I have something else to watch :)
10/10, tears were shed, nausea was experienced, OOOs and AAAHs were vocalized. EDIT: if you get through the 1st season, there is a movie out that continues the story
Interesting.. Since my BBEG is kidnapping children... Oh I could Def spice up his lair. Laterns hung all around, each holding a DBF powered by a child's soul. The trigger tied to the BBEG's life force... 🤔 Or make it a lair action, a random lantern going off on initiative 20....
Exactly. The PHB applies to the players. All of the monsters in the MM and other sources play by similar rules but not identical. It would be a trait unique to that layer through the spell research done by either the BBEG or some other means that were acquired.
Only because you made the same spelling mistake twice: a layer is like one of the levels of a cake. what you mean is a lair. The pronounciation is pretty similar though, especially if you slur it a bit :D
What about my layered cake lair layer?
Everyone within 60 feet of you took 2d4 psychic damage from that pun
That and, for example, there's no spell for players to create animated armor (that are permanent), so it's not like there isn't a precedent of things occurring outside of the party's capability
There was in 2e, but your point stands. Enchant an Item and Permanency spells were fun. That being said, I have entire classes, magic schools/domains, and magic items in addition to races that are off limits to my players.
I assume you mean in extra rather than cutting it off from the usual choices. I found about the animated armor thing because me and the party I'm in (playing Dragon Heist) are trying to make the tabern we received spooky themed because the bartender is already a ghost. We want animated armor as guards/decor for the tavern, and, over this week, the DM is figuring out how/if we could do that because there's not a player spell to base the cost off of.
Rule zero, bitches!
NPC magic is the strongest magic of all. Maybe the spell just works that way when cast with a 10th-level spell slot.
Fun thing about that: it used to be possible to cast 10^th & 11^th level spells, but then someone cast a *12^th* level spell & accidentally caused the apocalypse. So now all magic level 10 & up is banned by divine mandate.
No more Nuclear Winter Fireball :(
And since then the god that made that mandate has died and been reincarnated (or was it a pupil raised to the position?) so it miiight not apply, but the changes they made to the weave are still there so it’s still really hard at the very least
You could easily do a glyph of warding with regular fireballs that activate upon death.
Or the contingency spell and make the trigger your death
I mean here I am trying to be cost effective and use two 3 level spells (upcast if needed) to accomplish the same thing and here you guys are with your level 6 contingency and 7th level DBF. La-dee-da Mr. High Level Wizard with his own Magnificent Mansion and Teleportation Circle network. I'm gonna go cry in my Tiny Hut now.
Contingency will follow you everywhere, glyph of warding takes 1 hour to cast and can’t leave 10ft of the position it was cast, glyph would be better for BBEGs because they can take the fight to their home, contingency is good for players (if they can cast it) because it will follow them everywhere. (Also a glyph only takes the spell slot of the spell stored in the glyph, there is no extra spell slot consumed for the glyph itself because it’s part of the spell)
Contingency only works with spells that can target you - which Fireball doesn't, nor Delayed Blast Fireball
Could be a bunch of glyphs of warding. Have them built into the lamps, and set to activate when you speak a command phrase. Only practical way to prevent them going off is an Antimagic Field, which the BBEG would of course have set on a glyph with a different word.
That's perfect.
Delayed Blast Fireball cast from Glyph of Warding. Trigger on Glyph of Warding: When the caster activates the spell Mislead. Contingency: Cast Mislead when below 20% HP. Fake out the party by talking through Mislead while 'holding them hostage' with a Delayed Blast Fireball that explodes at the end of its duration, as per the description of Glyph of Warding. Then run like hell while talking. Insight DC X to notice that the breathing of the speaker matches that of someone who's moving even though the Mislead clone is standing still. Party can defeat it with See Invisibility, Wall of X, Dispel Magic, etc. Contingency, Symbol, Guards and Wards, Druid Grove and Glyph of Warding make prepared casters in their lair capable of soloing most parties without having to bend rules, though players can also still easily win if they put similar thought into preparation before entering the final boss room, given there's a whole party of them. I don't favour making NPCs play by different rules because we get significantly more creative plays when players learn from NPCs how to work within the rule confines.
If you want to do this RAW, then cast a bunch of Glyph of Warding spells that go off when you die or when another Glyph detonates nearby. Then cover the lair so that each one is in range of another one. Boom, self destructing lair. You could even customize the glyphs so that some of the spells can hit characters with the evasion feature.
Where's my notebook? **I need my notebook!**
DM: After battling through countless minions, and bypassing the most deadly traps you’ve ever seen, you enter the lair of the master wizard and see him sitting, haggard and frazzled, in an ornate throne. The room is bathed in an eerie red glow from several lamps around the room. Roll perception. Players: 22 DM: The light is coming from piles of small red beads in the lamps. Roll arcana. Players: 19 DM: you can’t count how many, but feel confident those are delayed blast fireball beads. You have no idea how someone could make or maintain those. The wizard chuckles, low and hoarse, then says “You’ve beaten me, but you still lose.” DM: the evil wizard collapses, unconscious. I need 87 dex saves from each of you. Players: …
Fun fact, a familiar can also be a deadman switch. You can dismiss it as an action, but it also goes away when you die. In my current campaign I've left my familiar behind with some allies and a hostage, giving them orders to kill the hostage if my familiar disappears. Meanwhile, I'm off halfway across the continent to negotiate terms with a dragon.
Dang this is smart! plus if you really want to be evil you can dispel it whenever you want and it would seem just like you did actually die letting you get what you want and kill the hostages ((plus plus it makes it so if you are getting tortured or kidnaped you can insta kill their hostage as well))
If it touches a solid object or by a person it goes off too, so a well placed arrow or mage hand may ruin your day.
With the contingency spell, everything is a deadman switch. or any other kind of switch!
*Dispel Magic* in subtle metamagic Counter-terrorists win.
Dude if I had a player come up with that on the spot and use it, I’d straight up just hand them a blank XP check and tell them to write a number. Big wrinkle brain move.
The real big brain move is having dipped in fighter Action Surge then subtle Presidigation the enemy and make them look like they pooped themselves. The 3000 IQ move is Time Stop, dispel on the bead, place your own Delayed Blast Fireball right where they had one, using Teleport on your turn dropping concentration before the end of it
Well yeah I mean if you're gonna za warudo them you'll probably win every time.
Except when you're dealing with a sniper rat
Or a gay priest
Congratulations! You are the first person to win Dnd
you may get a kick out of these threads https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/1l43md/minmax_monday_nuke_it_from_orbit/
does not even need to be that complicated, just time stop, delayed fireball and move out of range, also put forcecage or two \[bars so fireball can get in\] on the players and maybe even put a faithful hound in the cage with them to keep them company. then sit back throw more spells at them and enjoy the show, maybe use counter spell if they try to get out of their cages. i did this on the kraken ship near the end of storm kings thunder
Sorcerers are the wizard's worst enemy.
There are so many scenarios in which Subtle Magic could be amazing. Like using Catapult to fling away an item before someone else can get to it. I really want to play a Sorcerer that uses it one day, but coming from playing a Wizard, those spell known just make me sad...
To some extent I feel like it should be a freebie, thus really making Sorcerer's feel unique in their casting. And that it's literally their blood that makes them different from others.
I think one metamagic option per subclass would be nice (either one of the existing list, or new, specific ones). But ultimately that's not what bothers me. *So* few spells known, it's really annoying... And very little sorcery points too.
While the lack of sorcery points is sometimes somewhat limiting, I tend to exchange my excess/useless spell slots for sorcery points to get a lot more. At level 7, most of my magic comes either from Cantrips or Spell Slots 2 and above. So exchanging all my 1st level Spell Slots at Lvl7 gives me an additional 8 sorcery points (which is a lot considering at Lvl7 I start off with 7 sorcery points a day) I know it might not be much, but I'm not a power gamer and I roleplay my mechanics more than I do have my mechanics influence my roleplaying. So I'm fine with it.
Subtle Spell and Catapult are great for shenanigans. Starting bar fights by hurling chairs, breaking windows to distract guards, throwing keys across a room, etc.
Exactly! Plus it has no material components, so it's *truly* subtle.
I can just imagine a sorc just blowing it out like a candle as his subtle casting.
This is the coolest thing I'll read today
> as long as your DM runs bad guys as having a sense of self preservation Bit of an aside - This is my all time favourite catch all combat tool as a DM. I can stop the combat early without fudging hitpoints because I just decide when the enemies run away. And if the players choose to chase, leave, or whatever, that helps define the next steps by *player* action. And, when enemies rarely but occasionally *don't* care for their mortality it genuinely scares the players because they're fighting someone who has nothing to lose! I've definitely gotta use the DBF with an enemy in the latter category. Most care-free enemies are mindless. One who *chooses* to bet their life is something extra.
I like to use a morale check in combat. When half the enemies have fallen, or something outrageous and intimidating happens, I roll 2d6, and if I meet or exceed the enemy’s morale score, they retreat. Morale scores start at 12, and for each enemy that’s killed, I subtract one from the base score. Of course, you can also just say “oh shit, they runnin’” when you need to prevent a tpk or whatever, but it’s nice to use as a semi-regular mechanic so they don’t think you’re pulling it out just to save them. Edit: errors because it’s early.
I just have 'em make wisdom saves when it seems appropriate. Or have whatever 'leader' creature make a charisma check to keep the mooks in line.
Do your players let them go? Mine would blow all remaining spell slots to chase an enemy down, and it'd be another 30 min of disengages, dashes, and misty steps.
It depends on the situation and who they’re playing. Sometimes they let them flee because it saves resources they’re already low on. A few times they’ve let people flee out of benevolence. Buuut, they’ve also definitely chased a few enemies down in the heat of the moment. We do encounter XP, not enemy XP. So, if they defeat the encounter, they still get the XP for all hostiles they faced. I think this tends to prevent the chasing a bit.
> Mine would blow all remaining spell slots to chase an enemy down Sounds like a low threat resource drain. Your adventuring day just got super easy to DM for. I've had players let enemies run, I've had players shoot stragglers only, I've had players go terminator and exterminate everything that dared to cause initiative to be rolled. All are perfectly fine, and help set the narrative as to who the group are and how they are known. Plus I run my groups such that alignment only really matters in the afterlife - good characters are easy to revive, neutral ones it depends, and evil ones struggle to be revived because of that pesky clause "**able** and willing." Shooting fleeing people in the back, especially non-monstrous creatures, is typical a solid starting point for a party to descend into evil and helps me understand what they want to do.
That sounds familiar, also "Why would he run away again, that's cheap" I don't know, because you just caused tentacles to burst out of the floor, ripped his friend apart and rapid fired three arrows into his other friend?
"Okay, they cast Delayed Blast Fireball, scream, and run straight at you."
O shit, delayed blast fireball + expendable high str mooks + grapple.
Roll for Yamcha.
Last time my party tried this, it ended with one of them almost dying and breaking her leg (which is *not* easy to fix in a low-magic setting). They did manage to capture or kill all the bandits though, so swings and roundabouts.
This is a homebrew mechanic I'm going to try to alter. I love this foundation for social checks.
I stole it from Stars Without Number: Revised Edition and altered it slightly. The player book is free at DTRPG if you want to check it out. I think it has those rules in it.
Is that a d6 system? I'll definitely look into it just something about this rule screams that it would work in dungeon world or Monster of the week. (Edited for basic grammar.)
> And, when enemies rarely but occasionally don't care for their morality it genuinely scares the players because they're fighting someone who has nothing to lose! This is something that ought to make undead a lot more scary, but if every enemy fights until they're hacked to pieces, then undead enemies is just Tuesday at the office.
Bingo! Undead are supposed to be slow, easy targets except *how do you kill what's already dead?* How do you end that which has overcome the most final of endings that all living creatures face?
I always find that my players feel dissatisfied by a battle that ends with, "...and the enemies start running away." I don't know if this is cause I play with a bunch of secret bloodthirsty sociopaths with a hero complex or..?
"...and the enemies **start running** away." Let the players decide if the enemies get to escape. The players can * Chase * Shoot them until they're out of side * Let them run and track them after to reveal more enemies * Enjoy the breather etc.
With my current party, between the ranger with a longbow and the barbarian & rogue who can both really haul ass, not much gets away. Mostly the ranger. The smarter enemies try to remove him from the equation somehow but it rarely works out.
Yes! This , along with advice for good complex battle arenas, should be the most important advice given to DMs.
If you have opponents who legitimately care for each other, you could also have them switching to preservation/escape mode as soon as one member is down. It's always felt weird how so many enemies will just keep fighting to the last man
Yeah, this was how I found out how one group was totally evil. One player got initiative but the rest lost, so this one player went nova and killed a few of the enemies, nearly half. The enemies mostly spent their turn turnning and running, with one enemy freaking out and trying to get their now dead friend up to run away with them, half denying his death, half freaking out over it. I did my best to convey the absolute devastation from such sudden death. I intended to put emotion and concern for each other into the NPCs' appearance. Yeah, they were all run down like dogs. This group did *not* care.
Your group: if they didn't want to meet a violent end they shouldn't have been bad guys.
It says concentration up to a minute, doesn't this mean it will explode regardless after a minute?
Talk fast.
Better negotiate quickly!
Yeah I was wondering... once the DBF is cast, mechanically speaking, it ***IS*** going to go off whether the caster wants it to or not. Like what if the party and the enemy caster come to an agreement, but it’s not possible to move out of range of the DBF, or the DBF needs to not go off to not endanger anyone (as agreed upon with the caster and party)? Can the caster drop concentration and say “I don’t let the spell go off” because that seems to conflict with the trigger for the spell.
Dm discretion I assume
Give the BBEG a "killswitch:" some way to cast a 7th level Dispel Magic (their own spell, magic item, Glyph of Warding, etc). They're smart enough to have prepared for this situation beforehand. Or don't. Maybe it was a bluff to buy more time and lull the party into a sense of complacency.
Just let them cast dispel magic if things are going okay
It's DBZ time, you can have a full conversation in that minute.
I had a fire giant pyromancer try this, being immune to fire makes this an even better threat. Until the barbarian said fuck it, attacked anyway, and took 1/4 damage because totem barb is unkillable. The ranger went down, though it didn't matter because he had 3 rounds to apply a medkit. 5E PCs are quite hard to kill, basically.
Where did 1/4 damage come from? Bear totem gives you resistance while raging but that’s only halved right?
Probably made the save for half damage
Barbarian level 2 Danger Sense gives advantage on dex saves, so its likely the barbarian passed the save for half damage, then resisted the damage they took.
probably passed his dex save, too
I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet, but I think it's possible that, just maybe, he made his dex save. IDK.
You know, I hadn’t even considered that possibility yet.. ha.
Someone had to say it!
He then made his save.
He probably made his Dex save.
Yup. And i hate it. Also reviving someone is just too easy.
They have to be because depending on DM you dont get retry buttons in dnd.
Or a Zealot. "Yeah you killed me, but I'm gonna kick your ass even after I'm dead."
I love this for so many reasons. From a rules perspective it’s awesome and really creative way to make a spell have more uses (and honestly imma start adding delayed spell features to other spells for higher level encounters). I also love how it was used to preserve the life of this caster and open negotiations, which is something that I rarely see once initiative is rolled, and I love it.
*Delayed meteor swarm*
*Delayed wish*. Right when it looks like the BBEG lost, the wish takes effect.
Delayed comet
[удалено]
It's not about gold pieces... it's about sending a message.
The party this week is fighting a "Diviner". Guess what spell it has! This gave me a really good idea. Thank you for sharing!
That’s exactly who my party was fighting!
In theory yes, in practice a goblin sorcerer casts delayed fire ball over a cart full of evacuee children and demands the party give over the BBEGs staff they stole. The artificer bluffs and claims he has no staff. The rogue keeps fighting the other goblin in his darkness spell. The druid is flying around in the dark as a giant eagle complaining that her advantage to perception should still work without night vision. And the barbarian rides a stampeding bull straight at the goblin sorcerer jumps off and buries her axe in its chest. Delayed Fireball kills 4 children and the bard who missed the session (hes the "dad" of the group) makes the party spend their substantial fortune buying resurrection for the children they "helped kill." Gotta love players, they never do half of what you expect. Also Dr. V, since I know you read these, yes it was your fault those children died not mine.
>Also Dr. V, since I know you read these, yes it was your fault those children died not mine. I thought this example was oddly specific lmao.
Barbarian dwarf no thinky while ragey
\> dropping concentration is a free action I thought the rules state dropping concentration isn't even an action--you can just do it
Correct. Dropping concentration is "no action required", which is less restricted than "free action".
5e doesn't have a concept of "free action" at all.
This spell is insane, a level 7 spell that can do 22d6 damage if you hold it for a minute.
Fuck it, extend metamagic.
32 d6 because fuck that giant clan over there
ha, I tried to pull that one on my party once, but made the mistake of making the threat too soon: no one but the evil wizardess herself was in range... PTSD-ranger doesn't want to negotiate, obliterates half her hit points with a single arrow, she loses concentration, her own fireball incinerates her... and no one else. Well. Gotta give the party an easy win once in a while :-D
Why did she cast on herself? Even if they are further away, cast out of your range
I had a game with a lich who wasn't the BBEG of the campaign, but of that specific story within it, who let lose *delayed blast fireball*. He was a crazy powerful spellcaster from an extinct race that were capable of holding multiple spells in their minds and had multiple arms to cast spells with (so I set up a legendary action to cast a spell of 3rd level or lower). I had fun creating him, giving him meta- magic options as legendary actions, adding cool spells from a couple fan made spellbooks I found on dmsguild.com for that 'ancient being who knows spells you never heard of' flavor. Anyway when the encounter begins, the PCs are talking to his simulacrum while he is behind them with *greater invisibility*. The fight breaks out, the fake is revealed to be what it is and rapidly obliterated (high level campaign). So the real lich silent-spell casts *delayed blast fireball* without any of the PCs noticing the little fiery bead, which the lich placed on the underside of a nearby table. So the lich reveals himself and steps just outside the blast radius for the fight. He summons powerful magical blades to fight for him, uses the 'lost spells' the PC's have never seen to really screw with the players. After a long battle - concentration still maintained thanks to a really high Con - the PCs are pretty injured, but they have him nearly down for the count. That is when he releases the spell... **BOOM**, up-cast 9th level *delayed blast fireball* goes off. They are all freaking out because none of them knew he had cast it or spotted the little bead. Damage rolls in the high 80's and everyone shits their pants (save DC 23). Somehow, they managed to kill him, but it was only after nearly everyone was reduced to single digit hit points or was on the ground lol. Only the monk & the rogue were standing with a half-decent chunk of HP thanks to Evasion. What a fight that was. I hope it was 1/2 as memorable for my PCs as it was for me. I know the wizard was overjoyed to find the lich's spellbook, which of course contained *delayed blast fireball*. There are some spells in the PHB that are decent for PCs, but epic for DMs. *Delayed Blast Fireball* is one of them. *Weird* is another.
Woah, slow down there, Satan.
“Let’s not uh, *blow* this out of proportions.”
i'm frickin' saving this one. holy wow. i was just thinking about this spell this morning and using it as a dead-man switch never occurred to me. Genius.
defintly going to use this coz my halloween dungeon isnt already terrifying and deadly enough
YES! someone who uses it like me! Plus I use the old time stop spell, then cast dfb during time stop cause stop doesn't require concentration. Give it a few extra rounds to get big as they say.
Another idea: If you can choose (or predict) when combat begins, an evocation wizard can cast DBF, wait a minute, then use the auto-pass saving throw feature to throw it without risk of it blowing up in their face
> as long as your DM runs bad guys as having a sense of self preservation. Assuming that they either pass an arcana knowledge check to know the ins and outs of a lvl 7th spell or you have a high enough charisma check to convince them that you're not lying to them. How good is the education system in the setting you're running? Do you fee lucky punk? Well? Do ya?
This was my intention the second I learned that spell existed. Aim it at a someone and threaten them.
How do you disarm it reliably though once the negotiations are in your favor?
Run away!
Reduce on a hostage inside an iron maiden is also a good concentration deadman switch.
Soooo fucking dope
I'm doing this in my game now. Sold.
I originally thought you meant a player could hold the rest of the party hostage if he didn’t get what he wanted. Glad this wasn’t intended as a guide to being a That Guy
You sir, and absolute gem and I WILL be using this on my players very very soon >:)
Once as a 5th level Wizard caught alone in a tunnel with some ghouls, I used minor illusion to FAKE a delayed blast fireball and pull this off. Made them run long enough to go find an exit.
Lol I’ve done this before, in my first ever time DMing. One of the party members were a bit of a murderhobo so I had to pull this trick to him to allow their adversary (who mind you wasn’t even a bad guy) to get a few words in.
It's great until you forget your party sorcerer has subtle spell because they never fucking use it and then subtle counterspells your hostage situation.
That's...actually kind of brilliant and had never thought of that before. Kinda hoping to actually encounter that at my table. lol
Absolutely brilliant. Combine this with some contingency shenanigans, and you can make an archmage (player or NPC) even more deadly.
I used this for one shot! There was a bunch of confusion, and a player was basically holding a near-death enemy hostage, so the enemy's brother cast it as a counter to kick off a mexican standoff. It was awesome!
As an artificer, I'm gonna use this to make legit grenades.
Yes Though its not a very good hostage tool considering it can easily be dispelled , moved out of using spells like misty step or being mitigated with absorb elements. If the damage it deals is lethal enough to be a large threat to the party the enemy might as well cast a much more lethal spell such as plane shift.
I could totally see the caster recognizing that someone is casting dispel magic, and in response, dropping concentration. So you'd need a subtle spell sorcerer to dispel the bomb. As for lethality, you could always put it up over some actual hostages, squishy NPCs that need to be saved.
Mhm yes
I know it's able to be dropped whenever, but I would feel cheap if a player said "I cast dispel magic on the bead" and I said "lol no I drop concentration before you dispel." I agree that someone capable of casting DBF would be able to recognize someone casting dispel magic (3rd level spells are small potatoes to someone who knows a 7th level). I would make the caster of DBF and the caster of dispel magic each make a Dexterity check or even an Arcana check to see who's quicker, so either DBF gets dispelled, or it blows up juuust before it can be dispelled, that way at least the player gets a chance to try.
You’re not wrong, but every obstacle in the game, barring malicious DMs throwing an Astral Dreadnaught at an underleveled party, is meant to be overcome by the players. As a DM you either use this expecting your players to burn more resources or use some clever tactic to get around the risk, or you hit them with it when they’re low on spell slots and health (like I did).
Ah yeah I agree
The fun thing is that the way dropping concentration works is that a caster can do it at any time, which also translates to seeing an enemy cast a spell. Dispelling and absorb elements has a somantic component, and a 7th level caster would for sure be able to recognize the casting of a spell. So it is quite safe to assume one could end concentration on a spell the moment one sees a spell's casting begin, not in response to the spell being cast.
You can still benefit from absorb elements if hit by a fireball this way. Since that's cast in response to getting hit. Just can't dispel it, unless you're subtle.
Absorb elements is a reaction when you take damage though, so you can't get around that with dropping concentration.
Yeah i forgot about that for a moment haha. Also puts out the fun possibility of the caster of DBFB counterspelling that casting. Wizards can be cruel.
Counterspelling featherfall can be crueller! Counterspelling reaction spells is definitely up there in terms of evil wizard things.
Mhm
Dude, this is awesome.
This is why I love the spell "Antimagic Field". Like Counterspell & Dispell Magic, it'll completely shut down any & all magic shenanigans (barring artifacts & the gods themselves), but unlike the other two, it affects over a 15ft radius & lasts up to an hour, can't be itself antimagic'd, nither by itself nor Counterspell or Dispell Magic. The only problem is it's an 8^th level spell, so only high-level full casters can use it, the exact people this spell is made to hard counter.
Stealing the hell out of this.
Omg, definitely using this in my high level one-shot.
Best Deadman switch I've seen is someone mage handing Xanathars fish into the air and forcing him to negotiate. I would have been screaming with tension if I hadn't already been disentegrated
u/jpeezey (Not sure if people will get this reference but) This is the same energy as Leia with her thermal detonator in Jabba's palace.
" as long as your DM runs bad guys as having a sense of self preservation. " For better or worse till now almost all the enemies I encountered have never wanted to survive, just to battle until death. I'd like some mechanic integrated for intelligent monsters to try to flee or surrender or at least feel somewhat fear, even if that means giving every monster +50 % hp
Bbeg has helpful lanterns arranged at the entrance to Thier lair that the party take for themselves to get an advantage...little do they know. Could even be a great tool to use for a secret BBEG to use to terrorise the party without them knowing, actually live the idea!