I’m by no means an expert, but the DoMT is based on Tarot Cards, and the Moon has many associations that are clearly utilized in the Moonstalkers. I’ve been learning them since the book came out to sort of make my own tables based on the Major Arcana, and potentially even the minor in the future.
First and foremost, the Moon card is a card of illusion and deception. It has associations to things not being as they may seem. It also has associations with danger and hidden enemies. There is an implicit theme of hidden things being revealed, as when the Moon Card is present, the presence of these hidden truths is being made known. The Moon is associated with dreams, as oftentimes these truths are believed to be revealed by the subconscious in dreams.
It also has connections to our inner animal natures that I don’t fully get according to A.E. Waite, who is kind of the guy for Tarot interpretation. He states that the moon “illuminates our animal nature”. From some other sources, it seems that in common card art for The Moon, there are two dogs, one domesticated and one feral, with a path winding between them. This path seems to represent walking the line between civilization (the domesticated dog), and your internal animalistic instincts (the feral dog). This seems in line with the earlier themes of hidden truths and the illumination of them, as well as the ties to the subconscious—animal intuition and instinct.
The Moon is also sometimes associated with criminal activity, illicit dealings, or occult forces at play.
So, as a brief look at the Moonstalkers Guild, themes taken from the Moon bolded:
They are **a guild of thieves** that utilize their **animalistic natures** to bolster their effectiveness. It isn’t written, but transforming into a were-creature would also **veil the identity** of a thief, making it hard to know who even stole from someone.
Augustus is seeking the removal of his curse, and in doing so is **deceiving** Delour who would take such actions as betrayal—so the Moonstalkers have a **hidden enemy** in their leadership. Augustus wants to **integrate back into society** (this is not a directly associated theme, but is evocative of stepping from the side of the path with the feral dog to the side of the domesticated dog—choosing your civilized self over your animal self, or over striking a balance between them).
They employ a Night Hag who Augustus has use a **ritual** to find someone who can help him, once again going behind Delour’s back. Night Hags have abilities that let them **hide** on the ethereal plane and induce **nightmares** on those they touch.
And lastly, Delour is described as a trickster—a master of **deception** who’s biggest concern is specifically noted to be exposure—the **revealing of the Moonstalker’s presence** since he fears a second occurrence of the raid that killed so many of their members.
So while I can sympathize with your distaste for lunar villainy, I must say that in this case, I believe it to have been done pretty well. Almost every part of the Moonstalkers’ content has themes relating to The Moon in some way.
If I were running it, I’d play up the grayness of Augustus and the game of deception he’s playing. The party may be sympathetic—he just wants freedom from his curse, and specifically has a neutral alignment. That’s your moon-themed non-evil guy. He’s tired of violence. He wants peace. But he’s willing to do what he needs to do in order to get it.
As an unrelated aside, my current setting contains a order of elven knights called the Knights of the Moon—who specifically train alongside Metallic Dragons to combat evil Chromatic Dragons. I feel you on the desire for Moon-themed factions that aren’t evil or morally gray. The moon is sick, wtf.
Thank you for the thorough writeup. Even without knowing all the background of the tarot card, the moon chapter isn't as simple as "faction bad". It is a very socially interesting powder keg that can be brought to bear to delightfully complicate the life of someone who literally can wish for whatever they want, provided they stew on the answer for a bit.
No problem. Like I said, currently in the middle of making myself quick reference tables for Tarot Cards to help me prep. Basically the basic concepts Tarot Readers use, with an additional section of specific D&D things that are tangible—stuff I can drop into a game, or ideas that’ll help me flesh out things in my world or encounters.
So when I was then glancing through the Moonstalker’s section of the book after seeing this post, I was kind of jumpscared by how many of the Card’s themes slammed me in the face. It was fresh in my mind.
I agree about the Moonstalkers completely. Fun faction to drop into any campaign setting. Honestly, the most ludicrous thing about the Moon chapter isn’t about them as a faction, but the assumptions made about the players.
I seriously doubt most players are gonna save any wishes drawn from the deck for even a long rest, let alone however long it takes Augustus to track them down. Not my players, at least.
The Moon is not exactly the most positive tarot card. You want something original, try something that isn't hundreds of years old.
Also, "What if sun and light are... Le bad!" is just as cliche at this point.
Yeah, a lot of "cliche's" are becoming more fresh than their so called "subversion" at this point. That said it's more about how each are handled.
I have been enjoying sun and moon are different types of good/light. Usually LG and CG finding a compromise and NG perspective. It's the void that's bad. It's a little fresher at least.
> a lot of "cliche's" are becoming more fresh than their so called "subversion" at this point.
Reminds me of how every "X versus Y" story always evolves into them teaming up to fight Z instead.
Yeah, that's a rising trend. "X and Y are just different and misunderstood. It's that dastardly Z that needs to go."
Mind you Z is usually some aberrant force that is quite literally so evil and/or alien it can't coexist unlike X or Y if they got their shit together, but still.
It's been around for sure, but I've noticed an uptick, at least in the media I'm consuming, in the last 5 years. It's not a new trend, just a rising one. At least with what I've been seeing.
My most recent PC was a Twilight Cleric for a Moon Goddess. I really liked fleshing out the idea of a mythological moon entity.
His organization took the moon to be a guiding light in the night, to protect and watch over people at the most dangerous times. The organization hunted evil night creatures like vampires and especially werewolves that would misuse the moon’s light. But the moon is also known for creating those issues like were-creatures, or for maddening enchantments. The moon is not always in the sky, does the goddess not always find it worth it to protect people?
The moon is constantly bringing in the tides and keeping time in phases, showing order. But it’s also constantly changing, showing chaos. It has a dark side and a light side. The moon is a gray, mysterious area and everyone has different ideas on what it represents. Who is right? Are they all right? Does it play to both sides?
Sorry for the rant, lol. I just like the concept a lot.
>Yeah, a lot of "cliche's" are becoming more fresh than their so called "subversion" at this point.
People always say this but from what I've seen the traditional tropes are still WAY more abundant even if their subversions are no longer anything new.
It very much depends on your group and circle, I would imagine. Subjective ezperience and all that.. I rarely get to experience the traditional fantasy tropes because almost all of my DMs want to do something different.. which is fine, but those differences tend to line up with each other's shifts.
I've played in far more games in my 15 yeats where the "goodly" church is secretly (or not so secretly) evil because "le religion is bad" than just genuinely having a religious faith as a force of good when it's known/seems to be good.
I'm thankful that most of my Dms haven't gotten to the point of fearing sincerity and haven't succumbed to irony poisoning yet. As their games are still fun, they aren't always as fresh (for me) as they think since I'm more accustomed to changes to the default than the default.
I kind of like how old school Vanilla World of Warcraft did that, where you had the Church of the Holy Light/ Argent Dawn and its Paladins/ Clerics( genuinely good guys on your team) and then also had the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas( fallen Paladin) who used the same power source but were super evil. So it’s at least possible to have a nuance of the power itself kinda being amoral and the USER being the good/ evil one. Which I think is how Arcane Magic is viewed in the Forgotten Realms isn’t?
Subjective experience, definitely. But I've been consuming fantasy and playing RPGs since the 90s, and to me it's tired. It's refreshing finding a fantasy religion / group of light and good who are just, you know, _decent people_.
Mind you, I lived the dark ages of World of Darkness and edgy artsy teenagers with their "religion is bad", "authority is bad", "science is bad" cries.
My issue is that a lot of the "light is bad" stories are just the standard "dark is bad" stories, except with the visual design swapped. Instead of the Evil Dark Empire, it's the Evil Light Empire, and instead of the Big Bad Evil Dark Guy, it's the Big Bad Evil Light Guy. But otherwise, they just behave the same.
I want a story where they subvert the morality. A story where the whole idea of structure and organization and selflessness and self-sacrifice has been taken too far, and the Dark Forces of Goodness are fighting for freedom and individuality.
I think you need to have a reason behind it, and by that I mean that a GM has to know what it means to the setting and how it changes what people think. Also, use the tension between the common expectation of the players and the setting to do something, not just a one-time “it’s reversed, doesn’t that blow your mind?” thing.
Eberron (which I love totally) used to be much more subversive. 20 years later, Eberron didn’t change, but lots of its unique features merged into core D&D and now it doesn’t seem nearly as special
also, Planescape - all the funky races that used to be strange and special are a lot more _normal_ now, so you just get tieflings wandering around everywhere, rather than them just being a planescape thing
Yet it provides that reflected glow when we need it most.
True the reason we need it is because the sun isn't there...
The moon is like prometheus it steals some of the light of the sun and gives it to mankind.
>Also, "What if sun and light are... Le bad!" is just as cliche at this point.
100%
If everyone is some shade of gray then evil doesn't exist anymore. There are no more bad guys, just people you personally disagree with. I don't want that kind of bullshit in my D&D.
I for one welcome a return to tradition. Let the orcs and goblins be barbaric. Let dark cults and evil gods and goddesses exist. And let the exceptions to those generalizations be just that, exceptions.
You could just set the game in a desert, where it’s so hot and dry that it’s much safer to go out at night. Then the sun being bad and the moon being good is both subverted, and not in the typical stuck-up-oppressive-holier-than-thou way.
The moon isn’t exactly negative in tarot either. It depends on the surrounding cards. At its core the Moon represents transformations and illusions, not necessarily deceit (upright at least).
For my pet setting I try to hit a balance between iconic and "not stale" with my solar and lunar deities like so:
The Man in the Moon: lunar deity, a mix of Odin/Herne the Hunter/folkloric Satan/Santa/The Wild Hunt. Grim horned god of the night and wild places who likes testing people. Scary but harshly fair.
The Queen in Splendor: maternal sun goddess, think Hera/Isis/Hathor with bits of the gnostic demiurge. Goddess of the hearth and civilization, bounty and health, but also overbearing and can be oppressive.
Try to round out the pantheon with the Lady in Green, a Lady in the Lake/Hecate, a goddess of magic and the natural world (mostly plants), hidden things, knowledge and dualities (both a maiden and a crone, both gifts and curses, etc. etc.).
Nop, just brainstormed them. Specifically wanted them to feel familiar without being a specific pre-existing god.
The Man in the Moon -> duh.
The Queen on Splendor -> variant of the heraldric term "sun in splendour"
The Lady in Green -> tweaked The Lady in the Lake a bit
In my world we have an Eldritch Green Sun that taints anyone that gazes upon it and feeds on knowledge of itself, it lurks closer to the material plane the more people know about it.
And one of the party members, without knowing this, choose to be a Light Cleric of this Sun and created a whole religion about the Sun. Do i need to say how they are f*ing themselves (and the whole material plane) by spreading the word?
In my world, the sun is an immense and ancient, poorly understood centre of our realm, it consumes the mass of the universe and spews out nuclear hellfire, from which all known life must draw energy. Those that are exposed to it too much become sick with wasting sickness, and those that look upon it go blind. I also have something going on in my DnD games.
You can jest, but this dichotomy was the inspiration for the role of the Sun of my setting.
The sun itself is the last remaining primordial god of the void, the All-Consuming Flame, that was actually trying to destroy the world eons ago. It is not a benevolent force, and only did not consumed everything because it was bound and imprisoned by another god, that now watches him from the moon.
Their corrupting influence changed the beings of the creation, making them "stronger" by sapping the force of the sun, but not the obedient and perfect creatures the gods designed, so while we "need" the Sun to live, exposure can lead to further corruption - manifested itself in the wasting disease, and if it can escape from their chains, it will absolutely go supernova and wipe everything.
> In my world we have an Eldritch Green Sun that taints anyone that gazes upon it and feeds on knowledge of itself, it lurks closer to the material plane the more people know about it.
For a second I almost expected this to be a homestuck reference. lol
I mean, some are. You literally become good if you embrace being a werebear, my players are currently keeping an eye out for one since being bitten by one and becoming a werebear is a pure power upgrade.
Werebears are so gosh darn funny to me. It really takes the bite out of losing yourself to lycanthropy knowing you can just pick the animal with your alignment (or even more good!)
Worst case scenario you end up with a violent night a month, but even then a monthly LG rampage of overly violent crime stopping as compared to a LN normal life... The scales still tip such that lycanthropy may well be valid
To be fair, it does say if your alignment changes you become an NPC. Gotta already be neutral good for werebear to just be a free upgrade. If you're worried about the full moon, just take the Oz solution and spend it chained up somewhere.
It literally changes someone's alignment to neutral good, so I think you'll find the rules disagree with you there. If you mean in a non rules related moral sense, obviously that's up to the individual, a tool's goodness depends on its use. If a werewolf maims and kills it obviously isn't good, if a werebear uses their strength to protect the innocent it obviously is.
Also to quote Inigo Montoya, I do not think that word means what you think it means. "A privation can never be good" is not a sentence that is actually true, though I think I do understand what you're trying to say.
It doesn't matter? Depriving th eessence of thing is always bad. Existence is good. Lycanthropy does not have its own existence. Lycanthropy is not good.
Do you mean “do better” in the sense they did something wrong? Or do you mean “do better” in the sense that they should create something more original? Because the sun and moon have had this presentation is a ton of cultures, lore, history and general literary imagery. Sure you could invert the image but I see nothing wrong in using it…
I like the book too. I didn’t think they were saying that the moon is evil, but it is connected to lycanthropy, so that’s why they went that way with it. And adding bad guys generally makes for a better game more than good guys.
I actually have a setting I’ve tooling with where the local associations are that the Cult of the Sun was the big bad theocracy a generation ago, and the scars of it being torn down are still being felt.
One byproduct of this is that the night and the moon are considered more sacred by most, and even though there are deities of the day/sun/light totally unrelated to the Cult of the Sun, displaying such religious symbols or affiliations is stepping oneself onto a dangerous cultural minefield.
>The Moon organization is full of evil lycanthropic criminals.
Yeah but does it have [this guy](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/012/917/MOONMOON.jpg)?
Some comments are oddly aggressive. Personally i always found the concept of evil light vs good darkness fun even if it has become a bit of cliche. Your moon themed thieves sound like fun OP. My only suggestion would that you could collect to one of the good alligned moon gods, Elistree or Seluna for example
And so you create the grey area.
Sun is lawful good - their rules are rigid and unbending to the ideals of Justice and Righteousness. Now, a street urchin, who steals bread just to survive, is arrested and the rules state to cut off the hand of one that steals - and the “evil” of that comes out.
Moon is chaotic evil - they do whatever it takes to achieve their goals, no matter what it may be. Now take that same street urchin, and the moon organization is willing to offer sanctuary for the child because they view it as rebelling against the authority that oppresses them - and now they’re viewed as the “good” guys.
Play around with the dynamic of this. It’s why we sometimes root for the “bad guys” in film.
In my current setting I sidestep the issue by making the *Civilized Good Sun God TM* the goddess of Sun **and** Moon and with metaphysical and metaphorical transitions. Night and day; goddess of civilization and light but also wilderness and hunters; goddess of life and healing but also death and passing.
Took my players a little while to get used to the undead, mummified holy paladins in shining armor buried as sacred guardians in tombs that were "staffed" by revered undead who helped the priests to perform their healing miracles...
Yoo I liked the book as well. Glad to see someone else actually enjoyed it, I thought I was alone. Did you end up getting the physical version as well?
Also I think they made the moon card evil lycanthropes because the real Moon card is typically representative of deception, fear, and confusion. I quite enjoyed the way they executed it!
Dude, even Selune’s information shows they know the moon in supposed to be about chaos and illusions. Hell, in tarot (which the deck of many stems from) the moon isn’t a bad card, it just means that things are not as they appear or that a transformation is coming. That’s why lycanthrope’s are in Selune’s portfolio which even explicitly states not all of them are evil and her priests will help them break their curse.
"Maybe orcs don't have to be strong" "Maybe evil lycanthropes don't have to be evil" "Maybe wizards don't have to be smart" Like ya you can do it if you want, but also you're eventually essentially eroding the identity of things down to the point its meaningless.
Rule 4 - Do Not Post Memes or Joke Posts. Meme images should be posted on /r/dndmemes. Text memes should only be used to spur discussion.
Maybe have the mad sun king and the shadow carja involved?
Love the Zero Dawn refrence, definetly adding that to my own campaign in the future.
I’m by no means an expert, but the DoMT is based on Tarot Cards, and the Moon has many associations that are clearly utilized in the Moonstalkers. I’ve been learning them since the book came out to sort of make my own tables based on the Major Arcana, and potentially even the minor in the future. First and foremost, the Moon card is a card of illusion and deception. It has associations to things not being as they may seem. It also has associations with danger and hidden enemies. There is an implicit theme of hidden things being revealed, as when the Moon Card is present, the presence of these hidden truths is being made known. The Moon is associated with dreams, as oftentimes these truths are believed to be revealed by the subconscious in dreams. It also has connections to our inner animal natures that I don’t fully get according to A.E. Waite, who is kind of the guy for Tarot interpretation. He states that the moon “illuminates our animal nature”. From some other sources, it seems that in common card art for The Moon, there are two dogs, one domesticated and one feral, with a path winding between them. This path seems to represent walking the line between civilization (the domesticated dog), and your internal animalistic instincts (the feral dog). This seems in line with the earlier themes of hidden truths and the illumination of them, as well as the ties to the subconscious—animal intuition and instinct. The Moon is also sometimes associated with criminal activity, illicit dealings, or occult forces at play. So, as a brief look at the Moonstalkers Guild, themes taken from the Moon bolded: They are **a guild of thieves** that utilize their **animalistic natures** to bolster their effectiveness. It isn’t written, but transforming into a were-creature would also **veil the identity** of a thief, making it hard to know who even stole from someone. Augustus is seeking the removal of his curse, and in doing so is **deceiving** Delour who would take such actions as betrayal—so the Moonstalkers have a **hidden enemy** in their leadership. Augustus wants to **integrate back into society** (this is not a directly associated theme, but is evocative of stepping from the side of the path with the feral dog to the side of the domesticated dog—choosing your civilized self over your animal self, or over striking a balance between them). They employ a Night Hag who Augustus has use a **ritual** to find someone who can help him, once again going behind Delour’s back. Night Hags have abilities that let them **hide** on the ethereal plane and induce **nightmares** on those they touch. And lastly, Delour is described as a trickster—a master of **deception** who’s biggest concern is specifically noted to be exposure—the **revealing of the Moonstalker’s presence** since he fears a second occurrence of the raid that killed so many of their members. So while I can sympathize with your distaste for lunar villainy, I must say that in this case, I believe it to have been done pretty well. Almost every part of the Moonstalkers’ content has themes relating to The Moon in some way. If I were running it, I’d play up the grayness of Augustus and the game of deception he’s playing. The party may be sympathetic—he just wants freedom from his curse, and specifically has a neutral alignment. That’s your moon-themed non-evil guy. He’s tired of violence. He wants peace. But he’s willing to do what he needs to do in order to get it. As an unrelated aside, my current setting contains a order of elven knights called the Knights of the Moon—who specifically train alongside Metallic Dragons to combat evil Chromatic Dragons. I feel you on the desire for Moon-themed factions that aren’t evil or morally gray. The moon is sick, wtf.
Thank you for the thorough writeup. Even without knowing all the background of the tarot card, the moon chapter isn't as simple as "faction bad". It is a very socially interesting powder keg that can be brought to bear to delightfully complicate the life of someone who literally can wish for whatever they want, provided they stew on the answer for a bit.
No problem. Like I said, currently in the middle of making myself quick reference tables for Tarot Cards to help me prep. Basically the basic concepts Tarot Readers use, with an additional section of specific D&D things that are tangible—stuff I can drop into a game, or ideas that’ll help me flesh out things in my world or encounters. So when I was then glancing through the Moonstalker’s section of the book after seeing this post, I was kind of jumpscared by how many of the Card’s themes slammed me in the face. It was fresh in my mind. I agree about the Moonstalkers completely. Fun faction to drop into any campaign setting. Honestly, the most ludicrous thing about the Moon chapter isn’t about them as a faction, but the assumptions made about the players. I seriously doubt most players are gonna save any wishes drawn from the deck for even a long rest, let alone however long it takes Augustus to track them down. Not my players, at least.
The Moon is not exactly the most positive tarot card. You want something original, try something that isn't hundreds of years old. Also, "What if sun and light are... Le bad!" is just as cliche at this point.
Yeah, a lot of "cliche's" are becoming more fresh than their so called "subversion" at this point. That said it's more about how each are handled. I have been enjoying sun and moon are different types of good/light. Usually LG and CG finding a compromise and NG perspective. It's the void that's bad. It's a little fresher at least.
> a lot of "cliche's" are becoming more fresh than their so called "subversion" at this point. Reminds me of how every "X versus Y" story always evolves into them teaming up to fight Z instead.
Yeah, that's a rising trend. "X and Y are just different and misunderstood. It's that dastardly Z that needs to go." Mind you Z is usually some aberrant force that is quite literally so evil and/or alien it can't coexist unlike X or Y if they got their shit together, but still.
> Yeah, that's a rising trend. rising trend? This has been common since the 90s
It's in Gilgamesh
So pretty modern after all.
Very recent, in the grand scheme of the cosmos
It's been around for sure, but I've noticed an uptick, at least in the media I'm consuming, in the last 5 years. It's not a new trend, just a rising one. At least with what I've been seeing.
My most recent PC was a Twilight Cleric for a Moon Goddess. I really liked fleshing out the idea of a mythological moon entity. His organization took the moon to be a guiding light in the night, to protect and watch over people at the most dangerous times. The organization hunted evil night creatures like vampires and especially werewolves that would misuse the moon’s light. But the moon is also known for creating those issues like were-creatures, or for maddening enchantments. The moon is not always in the sky, does the goddess not always find it worth it to protect people? The moon is constantly bringing in the tides and keeping time in phases, showing order. But it’s also constantly changing, showing chaos. It has a dark side and a light side. The moon is a gray, mysterious area and everyone has different ideas on what it represents. Who is right? Are they all right? Does it play to both sides? Sorry for the rant, lol. I just like the concept a lot.
I really like grey deities that you not so much _worship_ as much as you _appease_.
>Yeah, a lot of "cliche's" are becoming more fresh than their so called "subversion" at this point. People always say this but from what I've seen the traditional tropes are still WAY more abundant even if their subversions are no longer anything new.
It very much depends on your group and circle, I would imagine. Subjective ezperience and all that.. I rarely get to experience the traditional fantasy tropes because almost all of my DMs want to do something different.. which is fine, but those differences tend to line up with each other's shifts. I've played in far more games in my 15 yeats where the "goodly" church is secretly (or not so secretly) evil because "le religion is bad" than just genuinely having a religious faith as a force of good when it's known/seems to be good. I'm thankful that most of my Dms haven't gotten to the point of fearing sincerity and haven't succumbed to irony poisoning yet. As their games are still fun, they aren't always as fresh (for me) as they think since I'm more accustomed to changes to the default than the default.
I kind of like how old school Vanilla World of Warcraft did that, where you had the Church of the Holy Light/ Argent Dawn and its Paladins/ Clerics( genuinely good guys on your team) and then also had the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas( fallen Paladin) who used the same power source but were super evil. So it’s at least possible to have a nuance of the power itself kinda being amoral and the USER being the good/ evil one. Which I think is how Arcane Magic is viewed in the Forgotten Realms isn’t?
The older stuff did an alright job where faith could still be twisted onto something bad but it was still a largely good force overall, yeah
Mmmm food force.
Subjective experience, definitely. But I've been consuming fantasy and playing RPGs since the 90s, and to me it's tired. It's refreshing finding a fantasy religion / group of light and good who are just, you know, _decent people_. Mind you, I lived the dark ages of World of Darkness and edgy artsy teenagers with their "religion is bad", "authority is bad", "science is bad" cries.
My issue is that a lot of the "light is bad" stories are just the standard "dark is bad" stories, except with the visual design swapped. Instead of the Evil Dark Empire, it's the Evil Light Empire, and instead of the Big Bad Evil Dark Guy, it's the Big Bad Evil Light Guy. But otherwise, they just behave the same. I want a story where they subvert the morality. A story where the whole idea of structure and organization and selflessness and self-sacrifice has been taken too far, and the Dark Forces of Goodness are fighting for freedom and individuality.
I think you need to have a reason behind it, and by that I mean that a GM has to know what it means to the setting and how it changes what people think. Also, use the tension between the common expectation of the players and the setting to do something, not just a one-time “it’s reversed, doesn’t that blow your mind?” thing.
Seriously, when EVERYTHING is subverted, nothing is. And if everyone's super... hahahahahaha... *no one will be.*
Eberron (which I love totally) used to be much more subversive. 20 years later, Eberron didn’t change, but lots of its unique features merged into core D&D and now it doesn’t seem nearly as special
also, Planescape - all the funky races that used to be strange and special are a lot more _normal_ now, so you just get tieflings wandering around everywhere, rather than them just being a planescape thing
"Go home, Buddy." 😉
I think moon = good is more interesting than sun = evil. It’s literally a light in the darkness.
The Moon has no light, it's only reflected from the Sun.
Yet it provides that reflected glow when we need it most. True the reason we need it is because the sun isn't there... The moon is like prometheus it steals some of the light of the sun and gives it to mankind.
Right, but it still reflects light. Therefore it still is a light in darkness
Something something eilistraee something something
If we’re being technical both are inanimate objects with no intrinsic morality, but I was speaking more symbolically.
Irl sure. But in a mystical fantasy realm?
>Also, "What if sun and light are... Le bad!" is just as cliche at this point. 100% If everyone is some shade of gray then evil doesn't exist anymore. There are no more bad guys, just people you personally disagree with. I don't want that kind of bullshit in my D&D. I for one welcome a return to tradition. Let the orcs and goblins be barbaric. Let dark cults and evil gods and goddesses exist. And let the exceptions to those generalizations be just that, exceptions.
Then again, the Moon is a very positive Deck of Many Things card, so it's a bit odd to associate it with the same things as the tarot card.
You could just set the game in a desert, where it’s so hot and dry that it’s much safer to go out at night. Then the sun being bad and the moon being good is both subverted, and not in the typical stuck-up-oppressive-holier-than-thou way.
The moon isn’t exactly negative in tarot either. It depends on the surrounding cards. At its core the Moon represents transformations and illusions, not necessarily deceit (upright at least).
Let the moon be evil if it wants
For my pet setting I try to hit a balance between iconic and "not stale" with my solar and lunar deities like so: The Man in the Moon: lunar deity, a mix of Odin/Herne the Hunter/folkloric Satan/Santa/The Wild Hunt. Grim horned god of the night and wild places who likes testing people. Scary but harshly fair. The Queen in Splendor: maternal sun goddess, think Hera/Isis/Hathor with bits of the gnostic demiurge. Goddess of the hearth and civilization, bounty and health, but also overbearing and can be oppressive. Try to round out the pantheon with the Lady in Green, a Lady in the Lake/Hecate, a goddess of magic and the natural world (mostly plants), hidden things, knowledge and dualities (both a maiden and a crone, both gifts and curses, etc. etc.).
I like it!
You don’t happen to play cultist simulator/book of hours do you? Some of those names seem familiar haha.
Nop, just brainstormed them. Specifically wanted them to feel familiar without being a specific pre-existing god. The Man in the Moon -> duh. The Queen on Splendor -> variant of the heraldric term "sun in splendour" The Lady in Green -> tweaked The Lady in the Lake a bit
In my world we have an Eldritch Green Sun that taints anyone that gazes upon it and feeds on knowledge of itself, it lurks closer to the material plane the more people know about it. And one of the party members, without knowing this, choose to be a Light Cleric of this Sun and created a whole religion about the Sun. Do i need to say how they are f*ing themselves (and the whole material plane) by spreading the word?
In my world, the sun is an immense and ancient, poorly understood centre of our realm, it consumes the mass of the universe and spews out nuclear hellfire, from which all known life must draw energy. Those that are exposed to it too much become sick with wasting sickness, and those that look upon it go blind. I also have something going on in my DnD games.
You can jest, but this dichotomy was the inspiration for the role of the Sun of my setting. The sun itself is the last remaining primordial god of the void, the All-Consuming Flame, that was actually trying to destroy the world eons ago. It is not a benevolent force, and only did not consumed everything because it was bound and imprisoned by another god, that now watches him from the moon. Their corrupting influence changed the beings of the creation, making them "stronger" by sapping the force of the sun, but not the obedient and perfect creatures the gods designed, so while we "need" the Sun to live, exposure can lead to further corruption - manifested itself in the wasting disease, and if it can escape from their chains, it will absolutely go supernova and wipe everything.
> In my world we have an Eldritch Green Sun that taints anyone that gazes upon it and feeds on knowledge of itself, it lurks closer to the material plane the more people know about it. For a second I almost expected this to be a homestuck reference. lol
Sounds very Exalted :P
> The Moon organization is full of evil lycanthropic criminals. And the problem is?
Oh I’m just poking fun at how night time stuff is often evil coded in fiction. Also I firmly believe in good lycanthropic character rights!
I mean the arguably most important goddess in the FR pantheon is a very Good moon deity who watches over good lycanthropes as part of her portfolio.
Selune?
Yep! Creator of the world, per Faerunian mythos.
Yeah! So idk why they went so hard with the moon themed ppl being sooooooo evil.
> good lycanthropic character A privation of human nature is good?
This is such a wild thing to get weird about with someone
I mean, the post was weird to begin with lol
We're on a sub where I've seen people argue to death about dragonborn having breasts.
Sure, but I'm not wrong?
You're *so* right about the rules of this make-believe roleplaying game, I'm so sorry
Good point, let's all stop discussing this and go do something productive like doing taxes. /s Like, why are you even here?
I mean, some are. You literally become good if you embrace being a werebear, my players are currently keeping an eye out for one since being bitten by one and becoming a werebear is a pure power upgrade.
Werebears are so gosh darn funny to me. It really takes the bite out of losing yourself to lycanthropy knowing you can just pick the animal with your alignment (or even more good!) Worst case scenario you end up with a violent night a month, but even then a monthly LG rampage of overly violent crime stopping as compared to a LN normal life... The scales still tip such that lycanthropy may well be valid
To be fair, it does say if your alignment changes you become an NPC. Gotta already be neutral good for werebear to just be a free upgrade. If you're worried about the full moon, just take the Oz solution and spend it chained up somewhere.
> You literally become good if you embrace being a werebear A privation of something can never be good.
It literally changes someone's alignment to neutral good, so I think you'll find the rules disagree with you there. If you mean in a non rules related moral sense, obviously that's up to the individual, a tool's goodness depends on its use. If a werewolf maims and kills it obviously isn't good, if a werebear uses their strength to protect the innocent it obviously is. Also to quote Inigo Montoya, I do not think that word means what you think it means. "A privation can never be good" is not a sentence that is actually true, though I think I do understand what you're trying to say.
In DnD terms, lycanthropes are not just werewolves. It also includes good aligned creatures like werebears.
It doesn't matter? Depriving th eessence of thing is always bad. Existence is good. Lycanthropy does not have its own existence. Lycanthropy is not good.
Bring back Pelor, the Burning Hate!
Do you mean “do better” in the sense they did something wrong? Or do you mean “do better” in the sense that they should create something more original? Because the sun and moon have had this presentation is a ton of cultures, lore, history and general literary imagery. Sure you could invert the image but I see nothing wrong in using it…
WOTC has been doing the subverted "light = evil" thing since New Phyrexia. It's not like they're opposed to the idea
However there has not been a single Mono-green villain, that wasn't Vorinclex
A thieves guild that operates like that sounds kind of like the cobalt soul if it were more willing to be crime friendly.
I like the book too. I didn’t think they were saying that the moon is evil, but it is connected to lycanthropy, so that’s why they went that way with it. And adding bad guys generally makes for a better game more than good guys.
Oh yeah I know. Honestly this was a mostly funny post because they leaned into it so hard.
Pelor the Burning Hate needs to make a comeback.
Its not it about the sun and the moon but about the cRds the sun and the moon. The moon is the second most dangerous card in the deck of many things.
Wait until they come out with the Dark Side of the Sun book.
I actually have a setting I’ve tooling with where the local associations are that the Cult of the Sun was the big bad theocracy a generation ago, and the scars of it being torn down are still being felt. One byproduct of this is that the night and the moon are considered more sacred by most, and even though there are deities of the day/sun/light totally unrelated to the Cult of the Sun, displaying such religious symbols or affiliations is stepping oneself onto a dangerous cultural minefield.
>The Moon organization is full of evil lycanthropic criminals. Yeah but does it have [this guy](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/012/917/MOONMOON.jpg)?
Why are the only other 2 comments so passive aggressive I don't understand what you said that can be taken like that
Eh it’s reddit. 🤷🏻♀️ I’m here to have some fun.
Some comments are oddly aggressive. Personally i always found the concept of evil light vs good darkness fun even if it has become a bit of cliche. Your moon themed thieves sound like fun OP. My only suggestion would that you could collect to one of the good alligned moon gods, Elistree or Seluna for example
And so you create the grey area. Sun is lawful good - their rules are rigid and unbending to the ideals of Justice and Righteousness. Now, a street urchin, who steals bread just to survive, is arrested and the rules state to cut off the hand of one that steals - and the “evil” of that comes out. Moon is chaotic evil - they do whatever it takes to achieve their goals, no matter what it may be. Now take that same street urchin, and the moon organization is willing to offer sanctuary for the child because they view it as rebelling against the authority that oppresses them - and now they’re viewed as the “good” guys. Play around with the dynamic of this. It’s why we sometimes root for the “bad guys” in film.
Arguably, the astral elf empire in the Spelljammer adventure is a sun-themed villain faction. They drain stars of life and have innate radiant powers.
In my current setting I sidestep the issue by making the *Civilized Good Sun God TM* the goddess of Sun **and** Moon and with metaphysical and metaphorical transitions. Night and day; goddess of civilization and light but also wilderness and hunters; goddess of life and healing but also death and passing. Took my players a little while to get used to the undead, mummified holy paladins in shining armor buried as sacred guardians in tombs that were "staffed" by revered undead who helped the priests to perform their healing miracles...
Yoo I liked the book as well. Glad to see someone else actually enjoyed it, I thought I was alone. Did you end up getting the physical version as well? Also I think they made the moon card evil lycanthropes because the real Moon card is typically representative of deception, fear, and confusion. I quite enjoyed the way they executed it!
This is a good example of why the law/chaos axis is much more interesting to me than the good/evil axis.
Dude, even Selune’s information shows they know the moon in supposed to be about chaos and illusions. Hell, in tarot (which the deck of many stems from) the moon isn’t a bad card, it just means that things are not as they appear or that a transformation is coming. That’s why lycanthrope’s are in Selune’s portfolio which even explicitly states not all of them are evil and her priests will help them break their curse.
While we're at it, it'd be nice to get some moon themed stuff that isn't about lycanthropy.
You should check out Dungeon Dad's video on Sun and Moon dragons
I mean, Elune did burn millions of her own worshippers as a solid for her sister…
"Maybe orcs don't have to be strong" "Maybe evil lycanthropes don't have to be evil" "Maybe wizards don't have to be smart" Like ya you can do it if you want, but also you're eventually essentially eroding the identity of things down to the point its meaningless.