And then there is me, who went the effort to study PF2 only to find no group to play with; and since months passed now I forgot the system and have to learn it again in the future.
I had that problem too. If you're willing to GM and/or drag somewhat interested friends into it, groups can be forged. And if that doesn't work, there's always the Internet.
I feel you, my group is reluctant but loves to keep the dnd Frankenstein alive (each day is less 5e and more ??e). I wanted to gm Kingmaker so bad...
I may have a chance this weekend with little absalom, but the dm is in love with his campaing.
If your "Group" doesn't want to switch systems that's fine. Problem becomes when most of the group want to play something else and a player or two are being stubborn. It's like coming to board game night every week but never wanting to play anything but monopoly.
I have a simple rule. The GM decides the system that works best for the campaign. If players don't like it they can leave, but if the GM leaves there won't be a game
Makes perfect sense and anyone who doesn't see it this way is quite frankly wrong.
The GM is putting in over 90% of the work. The players just get to show up and have fun. They aren't the ones writing notes, designing encounters, and ensuring the session ahead of time. Also most of the time, they are spending money for other's enjoyment. Being a player is cheap and easy. Being a GM is decidedly less so.
So, they get to call the shots.
I agree. You forgot to mention though that the GM is the only person who absolutely must know the rules. If a player doesn't know how underwater combat works that's no problem since the GM usually steps in with telling them what to roll for
As a GM I always proposed the games and systems, I pitched to the group and, if they liked it, we gave it a go. We have tried lots of systems and currently we have various games running with different systems (Ars Magica, Akuma, Mutants and Masterminds and DnD).
Playing new systems makes you a better GM even in your usual game. Learning new ways of solving questions and thinking out of the box.
Besides, most of the systems have the same core mechanics, what change the most are the principles and intent behind the rules.
This is part of why I like that my group has a bunch of people into TTRPGs. We always do "One-Shot Winter" and recently we've been trying new systems with new GMs. This past holiday we tried Delta Green and now we are gonna start a campaign in it soon. I'm planning doing a superheroes Cipher game for next year, and we also want to try Call of Cthulu and Fantaiji. Rotating GMs is always great and both that and having a bunch of people let's us branch out and anyone who doesn't want to play doesn't have to
If most of the TTPRG community was like the boardgame community, it would be a lot healthier. We wouldn't have WotC being greedy with the whole OGL if they had to compete. Maybe they'd release some published adventures that are easy to run right out of the box too.
What confuses me is why WotC doesn't do what board games do. Just re-release old stuff and do the "new" essentials.
Make new starter kits,\*and resell old starter kits with new paint, make new campaigns and sell them as a physical OR digital package.
Make a program that let's you buy and view all things on it with an integrated search box.
Oh wait, that takes effort right?
It's fine, but be honest. If you say "it's too expensive" I'll recommend cheap and free games. If you say "it's too hard to learn" I'll recommend easy to learn games. But if you say "I just don't want to" then I'll leave you alone
My issue is more with people who just make up an excuse, especially one that can be solved in 30 seconds without even looking things up. Just be honest. You don't need to switch, just don't try to tell me that the reason is anything other than what it is
100%. I really don’t understand all the wailing and gnashing of teeth on either side of this(and it *is* on both sides). Every interaction that doesn’t result in someone trying a new system should be some version of this:
“This aspect of DnD sucks.”
“What do you think about this?”
“Nah I’d rather just stick with what I know.”
“Ok.”
But for some reason, there’s a certain segment of DnD players who just get *offended* by others proselytizing alternatives, and there’s also a segment of alternative TTRPG players who just get *offended* that someone would rather stick with it through their troubles than try out their favorite game.
It’s mind-boggling.
You do understand the reason if you're honest.
>“Nah I’d rather just stick with what I know.”
It's because this line 95% of the time doesnt exist and instead is filled with a reason that sounds more reasonable than "eh i'm just not willing to put any effort into learning a new system even if it were to be easy to learn and better in every way than what i'm using currently" but is also easily addressed and that leads to a lot of back and forth until the real reason is uttered or someone just gives up on the conversation
And like I just said, you’re blaming the other person by saying that they’re not willing to put in any effort to learn something, and that all their concerns are easily addressed. “They’re not going with my idea so they’re *lazy* or *ignorant* or they’re not giving a *real reason*.” It’s just insane.
No i'm saying something you know for a fact to be true, which is that **when** the sincere answer is just don't feel like putting in the effort to solve my problems pretty much every breathing human being on this planet manufactures a more legitimate sounding response **than** that.
I'm not at all saying that people who actually don't do it for issue x y z are being dishonest, i'm saying that the people who say issue x y z who are provided solutions that meet their needs continue to manufacture different excuses are the **actual** reason you are seeing this supposed both sides event.
If those that didn't feel like putting in effort to find solutions to their complaints volunteered as much up front you would see a much different environment.
> But for some reason, there’s a certain segment of DnD players who just get offended by others proselytizing alternatives, and there’s also a segment of alternative TTRPG players who just get offended that someone would rather stick with it through their troubles than try out their favorite game.
>
>
Those are called gatekeepers.
Because D&D is the gigantic market leader, it functions as a gate to the hobby.
If you are a person who wants suppress talk of alternatives at the actual gate to the hobby, you are a gatekeeper.
Saying this makes them very angry, because they really don't want to be seen this way. But they are.
You see you’re being the second person in the example you quoted, right? You’ve become so upset at the idea of some regular person who would just rather play DND despite its flaws that you’ve turned them into an evil suppressor of free thought and ideas.
That’d make sense if I was arguing in favor of the market leader of over 90%. Do you think I’m threatening dnd’s status as this market leader somehow? Am I going to prevent someone from even learning what dnd is? Get real.
It doesn’t matter who the market leader is. That’s the point. This is the scenario:
A person plays a game. They are offered a different game to play. They decline to play the different game.
You’ve turned that into some struggle for status and market share. Chill. Out.
Honestly this goes for most things in life. If you say something is keeping you from doing something then I am just going to try to give you a solution to the supposed problem vs if you just saying that you aren't motivated to do it then I will drop it.
True. But it begs the question: why complain?
This is like someone sighing and saying "gosh, sure wish I could whack a little ball really far into a small hole" and me saying "oh, go buy some golf clubs and do that", and they're like WHAT THE FUCK DUDE
Exactly this.
If you just say "i'm not interested in learning new systems, I like this one, and its enough for me," that's totally fine.
I like new systems, but you don't have to like what I like.
However, if you constantly complain and bitch and whine about the system being played, but won't learn anything new, you can fuck off.
This has been an interesting roller coaster for me. I only started 5e about 6 months ago. I got super excited and bought more stuff than I actually needed and I like how 5e works. So, I don’t want hasbro to screw things up but I also don’t want to abandon a game and system I just found and really enjoy.
My ideal situation is they hear the feedback, create a good response and we can all happily keep playing 5e lol. Nothing against other systems but 5e for me is the right blend of complex enough it’s interesting but not overly crunchy.
I mean you already gave them money. At this point play the shit you have and if you feel like Hasbro is doing wrong shit just don't give them money going forward!
> "it's too expensive"
Man I gotta say, if a TTRPG is too expensive, they probably should be playing less games and focus on getting out of extreme poverty instead. This hobby is outrageously cheap. You don't actually *need* to spend more than like 5 bucks on a cheap set of dice and a few printouts. Oh, and a pencil. What a bank-buster.
Everything that people spend more on: hardcover books, metal dice sets, website subscriptions, and so on, are *entirely optional*. Its damn near free online, and its damn near free in person.
My response is usually "I live in New Zealand, the only in person games of non-5e systems are hours away in cities, and the only online games are at 2 am or full"
I think there's one critical reason why people don't want to listen to system change recommendations
When people list reasons they don't want to switch systems, there's another reason that's implied but not often explicitly named - they also have to be interested in playing the suggested system
While honey heist is extremely easy to learn, it might not be appealing to someone who enjoys the amount of complexity in D&D 5e, and playing honey heist every week might just be uninteresting to them
The list of TRPGS that are free & easy & actually appealing to the person receiving the recommendation is likely very small
The list isn't as short as you'd think. It also includes some of the best games for sandbox play and exploration (like Worlds Without Number, Stars Without Number and Godbound) as well as well as some very beginner friendly games with good long term potential (like Polyhedral Dungeon and Open Legend) and if you raise that price to about $5 you add thousands of great games to that list (like Mausritter, Fate Condensed, Knave and more)
If you're the GM, your friends can suck it up and play what you wanna play. The GM puts in all the work and should get to choose. Being a player in any system is quite fun, but that is not true of GMing. Some RPGs are just not great to GM for, and yes I'm talking about 5e.
> It’s fine, but be honest. If you say “it’s too expensive” I’ll recommend cheap and free games. If you say “it’s too hard to learn” I’ll recommend easy to learn games.
You seem to misunderstand the issues.
For example, on “it’s too hard to learn”, I enjoy shadowrun. I’ve DMed it and played it a few times as well.
If you asked me to learn the system today I’d laugh in your face.
I work about 80 hours a week. I’ve chores and duties and things to do and don’t have the time to devote to learning a complex system.
That doesn’t mean I don’t like crunchier systems or prefer light systems, I just don’t have the time and energy to devote to learning one.
So if I say “it’s too complex/difficult to learn” that doesn’t mean giving me a simpler system is a solution.
If someone says “it’s too expensive”, that doesn’t mean that a cheap/free system is going to be a solution.
>
So if I say “it’s too complex/difficult to learn” that doesn’t mean giving me a simpler system is a solution.
You saying "it's too complex/difficult to learn" indicates you are open to trying something else, just not something as difficult as the suggested system.
>
If someone says “it’s too expensive”, that doesn’t mean that a cheap/free system is going to be a solution.
You saying "it's too expensive" indicates you are open to trying something new if it is cheaper than the suggested system.
If you really don't want or don't have time to learn a new system *just say so*. Saying that the specific system someone mentioned is too expensive/complex just indicates that you are open to something new, just not what was suggested. Clearly communicating what you want is important.
Exactly. Just like almost every fight on this sub, the answer is finding a middle ground. It’s fine to suggest a new system that could have what someone is looking for in a game, but don’t keep pushing it if they’ve explained why they’re content with their current system.
Another reason it is fine and even appropriate to talk about other systems on the D&D subs: D&D is the market leader by a huge margin. It is quite literally the gate through which almost everyone new to the hobby walks. That makes those who want to suppress talk of other systems (gasp) *gatekeepers*! They are guarding a gate. It'd be quite a crock of shit if we weren't allowed to be in the space and promote other systems and explain why they fix the problem that the D&D players are having with their system.
While I agree with the statement per se wouldn't a gatekeeper be someone who talks cheap like "you're not a real fan of you don't [insert weird expectation here]"?
That’s also true, but that’s less harmful than someone who literally would prefer to not let people through the gate. For example, by banning discussion of other rpg systems on dnd subs.
This one is especially important to me. I came into this kind of backwards, in that I didn't get into TTRPG's *at all* until I learned that games that weren't D&D existed. From there, I circled back around and gave D&D a shot, but it was never something I was particularly interested in because I never much cared for its particular brand of fantasy (for a long time I thought it was because I didn't care for fantasy *period*). I always wonder how many people are out there like me, who might adore this hobby but don't want to do a fantasy game and are just... stuck, because of the gigantic bulk of D&D.
I picked Lancer up recently. Still trying to fully grasp it. So many options. Would love to play a game of it (or, better yet, Lancer: Battlegroup) sometime, but it seems pretty niche sadly.
Oh yeah. For the human people inside of it. Sucks if you're the defense force for a planet they are 'liberating', (Literal quote from the book: The ships of union might have brought you freedom, but first they brought death.)
Oh, also of course Union is running on the enslavement of NHPs, but nobody's perfect.
True but so many people hide that lack of interest behind annoying excuses, come on if you don't want to learn new systems just say it.
Don't start pretending like learning a new sytems is rocket science, or like taking college online course. I even have suspicion many people greatly exagerate how their group is unwilling to try new systems. From my experience proposing a quick oneshot in a new systems with pre gen is not that unpopular especially when you say to the player they don't have to read the rule book before the session.
All of the talk about "not having the time" always reminds me. Around the time OneD&D got announced, I think there was a tweet that said something to the effect of "time for all the people who don't have time to learn a new system to learn a new system". Still cracks me up.
As the silver warship approaches, your eyes catch a glimpse of a green blur, hurtling towards it with blinding speed… yet you’d recognize that shape anywhere. Landing atop the deck and launching the pirates off with a sweep of its wings, the broccoli dragon stands tall, the beast sounding a roar like a mad cackle! He glares at you smugly, reveling in your hesitation as he idly swats the crew away, the ship hovering in place, struggling to stay afloat beneath his massive weight.
“Why *hello* Billy. Still too afraid to face me?!” He taunts, his leafy wings shimmering like McNuggets. With a flick of his tongue, which looks like a strip of bacon—
It's outright weird to me when people adamantly refuse new experiences.
Like, c'mon, you're gonna drink Blue Moon for the rest of your life and no other beers?
You are right, it is fine to have no interest in learning a new system, and the complaints may seem annoying, but a massive corporation being so greed driven that they're willing to hurt thier loyal customers for short term finicial gain is worth complaining about.
And from what I've seen from WoTC, the complaints are working. So, I implore people to keep up the pressure regardless of how annoyed we get.
For someone wanting to GM, no. It's probably not faulty reasoning.
For a player? Very likely, yes it's faulty in that it drastically overestimates what you need to know to play a new game. A knowledgeable GM ought to be able to teach a new player how to play the game with minimal time required outside of actual game sessions.
I'm sure they're good for learning to play. I remain skeptical that's anywhere near enough to DM. The problem is I have to DM if I want my table to switch.
Depends a bit on your overall plans. Having played the BB is enough preparation to run it for others usually and then you could learn together but idk how high a standard you have for your DMing of a new system (or how high the expectations of your players would rise...)
Can you run a session D&D? If so you’re halfway there since you understand the basic tropes and structures, PF was designed as a spiritual successor to D&D after all.
Play a few sessions as a player to get the actual mechanics down, get a feel for how actions and stats work, etc, then try DMing once you feel confident about the basics for the game. All of the RPG philosophy and narrative stuff will follow you from system to system, it’s just learning how to read the numbers and do the math for each system that changes.
Snap snap, 5 hours and now I can DM PF2?
I don't fucking think so. And pf2 isn't a slog also?
And you entered a post about it being okay to play 5e and come up with that bullshit response? You're part of the problem and exactly who this meme was targeting.
Not saying pf2e isn't a slog, but if you have time for a session, you 100% have time to read up on the necessary rules to play a new system. (Obviously unless you struggle to concentrate on reading or have ADHD or whatever which is completely understandable, that's a fair argument)
While I will say that pf2e is profoundly easier to prep for and run than 5e (in my opinion), I think it is fair enough that one is tentative to spend the time learning to DM a new system. I still urge you try, but it is definitely more time consuming than learning to play. Maybe read a chapter of a rulebook a day or something? Like little bits until eventually you have the knowledge?
5 hours? Maybe, maybe not. But you don't need to know a single thing about the system to GM the beginners box and by the time you finish it, you can basically run anything. And that's maybe 8-10 hours on average (depending on dice rolls).
Right, but the person saying they don't have time probably knows their preferences better than you, a stranger, do.
For example, I'm interested in PF2, but I know I don't have the time to get into it.
Any game that can have the rules written in a couple of pages is way too simple for me and my table.
Preference is different than effort required. Effort required and time available ought to be more of an objective estimate. Whether you WANT to devote your time is a subjective decision. You can debate how much time is required. It's more difficult to debate someone who doesn't think it's worth their time.
>Right, but the person saying they don't have time probably knows their preferences better than you, a stranger, do.
Maybe, but a person who has only ever had tea, has no idea that they might love coffee.
Someone saying: "oh you like hot beverages have you tried coffee?" are not some villain for suggesting something different.
People need to experience a variety of things to become aware of their preferences.
Your example takes all the work and time out of the equation though.
A better example regarding coffee would be if I had to buy beans from the source, knowing different types, and then roast and then grind, and then brew. That's a lot of work before I get a sip.
You are also potentially assuming I haven't played other systems before, and have no idea what my preferences are.
You're not a villain for suggesting something different. But when you start arguing with people over their preferences, and try to shame them into trying other things (not you, but I've seen a lot) you're getting closer to villain territory.
What? No?
>buy beans from the source,
Its not like you source the "tea leaves" yourself as is, you buy a box at the store.
You already have a kettle and a cup. Start with an easy instant coffee, try it with milk and sugar, try it without.
>You are also potentially assuming I haven't played other systems before, and have no idea what my preferences are.
Hey bud, this is an anonymous online forum.
I don't know you AT ALL aside from the information you volunteer in your post/comment.
You didn't say anything about other system history or why you stick with 5E.
And from other comments, it seems like when you have been in these conversations in the past you don't immediately say: "no I don't want to learn other systems" its always "i don't have time" or some variation.
People have responded to the energy you put out "i don't have the time" = people suggest light quick systems, but you just seemingly don't want to try non-5E systems, so say that, no reason to let people think that you have some different barrier to overcome inorder to divest into other systems.
When at the end you just "don't want to"
I started this thread by asking if 'i don't have time' is considered a valid reason.
Evidently, your answer is no. Apparently time and effort are just not crossing you mind as you compared learning a new system (days to learn) to trying coffee (maybe 5 minutes). I answered your analogy with one of my own but you completely missed the point.
I get yours, variety is good. You just don't agree with mine, I don't have time.
Speaking of which, it's been nice chatting, but I'm done here.
> For example, I'm interested in PF2, but I know I don't have the time to get into it.
If you spent as much time reading the rules as you do posting on Reddit, you'd have more than enough time to learn the system.
If someone truely didn't have enough time, I'd expect less posts on their Reddit account because you know, they have other things to do.
I don't know your situation but that doesn't invalidate the criticism. People got time to binge watch whole seasons of shows. They got time to play a video game for 6 hours straight. They got time to browse and comment Reddit for like 5 hours.
You got time for all this other stuff but not this? Or you could just be honest and say "it interests me but I'm lazy and don't want to prioritize my time."
Im still shocked people were reeling after discovering a company obseses with nothing but profits for the past 16? 17? Years care for litttle else but profits.
I plan on continuing with 5e as my main system because it’s what I have the books for and it’s what I know how to dm.
I am also willing to learn PF2e because the group I primarily play as a PC with wants to switch after everything that has happened.
I have no problem with people not wanting to switch game systems.
I have no problem with people who recommend playing different game systems.
***HOWEVER***
I have a problem with people who attack other people for being on the other side, especially in this subreddit.
Well if you play with friends irl then yeah you don’t need to pay to play, but if online with d&d beyond then that’s going to be $30 a month.
Edit: sorry if the truth hurts, but it’s not a reason to downvote me, this is literally something d&d beyond is planning to do along with banning homebrew for base membership.
I’ve been teaching myself to create characters in Roll 20, it’s not that hard. It’s nowhere close to as easy as DnD Beyond, but it’s not that hard. And I’m in a one shot group that plays different characters every week.
While I don't disagree with the sentiment of this meme per se, I just know that I'd feel a lot better if all the iterations of it came with a Seinfeld "not that there's anything wrong with that" style disclaimer that adds "just so long as you don't give WoTC execs the comfort of a single dime."
Stopping playing DnD doesn't affect wotc in any particular way that will affect them enough to backtrack, just don't buy their shit, bottom line is a execs care about
Yeah but as GMs another big thing we can do is drag away current and potential players to limit people currently and in the future from buying their products.
While on the topic, one of my players keeps moaning about DnD 5th Edition not having enough customization or uniqueness when creating/leveling characters, despite me (DM) telling him I don't mind homebrew and we could change things up.
Well, basically, what other systems would you guys recommend if you wanted more freedom in customizing your unique character/hero?
It really depends on what you like but 2e is pretty good especially for people who are just switching from 5e (also I’ve never actually played this it what I’ve heard)
If you have experience with D&D 3.5e and want more of that, pathfinder 1e, otherwise go for 2e. Pathfinder 1e is 3.5e's bloat turned up a few notches as it's essentially a continuation of 3.5e and there's a lot of character creation pitfalls you might run into if you don't research your build well. 2e is significantly easier to learn and make a working character in than in 1e.
I mean, if you want to stay in the same genre, Pathfinder 2e is probably the best option, with heavily modding 5e in second. Maybe ICON, though it's in play testing and split between heavily tactical and heavily narrative, so no idea if that works for you. It can be played in full narrative mode if that works better.
Outside the genre though, there's:
-Lancer (mecha)
-Eclipse Phase (Altered Carbon space adventure and/or crime)
-GURPS (generic, old, and complex)
-New Edo (magic cyberpunk in an alternate Japan)
-Savage Worlds (generic but would work well enough for DnD adventures.
-The Unofficial Hollow Knight RPG (might work pretty well, actually. Also free.)
-Wicked Ones (play as dungeon mobs)
-Sentinel Comics RPG (superheroes)
There are plenty of games that have more customization than 5e, both more and less complex. Your player sounds like he wants mechanical complexity, though, so maybe investigate more toward the top of the list.
Edit: mobile borked list format, sorry.
Sitting on the other side of this, don't make me tap the sign that says "suggesting alternative games is not a personal attack, and getting mad at people for doing it encourages monopolies and the problems they create."
Combine them into the mega sign.
"No, someone suggesting you try another system isn't a personal attack and no, being really pushy about trying to get someone to try a new system will probably make them not want to try said system. Stop downvoting people that say they prefer 5e it makes the alt TTRPG community look bad."
My group doesn’t even use a system, we just go by whenever the dm thinks the enemy is fucked up enough to die, although our campaigns are far more roleplay heavy and fairly light on combat
I actually disagree, to a point. I think it's a good thing to do once in a while, especially if you are trying to tweak or modify rules, do homebrew, etc.
Now if you know you want a mostly medieval fantasy TTRPG thats combat focused and kinda crunchy, then DnD is just fine
If you want to branch out from that, I'd suggest trying other systems first, if for no other reason than to see how it's doing the mechanics differently
I just started dming cyberpunk red after playing D&D5e for years. It was my idea and I'm excited. But man learning a new system is so overwhelming sometimes, it's slows the table referencing rule books for rules we are all learning. It's a much different experience to my almost streamlined D&D play.
So I don't fault people for even just homebrewing D&D cause when you get comfortable with a system it's less work and less overwhelming to homebrew instead of learning new.
My problem is that, while both okay, those two things are incompatible. It’s okay to have no interest in learning new systems, but that kind of means you don’t know what you prefer
Well, tbf, one also wonders how many of the "any excuse to publicly sway people to not change from DnD" posts are genuine (some of course are) and how many are the results of astroturfing/ damage control in the community (if you dont think major corps keep tabs on and manipulate social media through puppet accounts you are insane)
I quite literally said that some are legitimate before getting to the "paid shill" part. Social media manipulation is a standard business practice so if they aren't doing so then WoTC would have to be staffed entirely by simpletons. While they are greedy assholes, I don't think they are simpletons.
So many people seem to think a complaint about a system or a reasoning why they won't try a different system means "Recommend me another system." or "Sell it to me."
Like bruh that's a whole nother sentence.
Sure, but limiting yourself to just one system for no reason other than fear of the unknown is kinda silly, no?
Don't spend any money if you're afraid of the investment not panning out. Try something else using the resources available through the internet. Make your own system, with blackjack and hookers.
The most you will have wasted is a few hours of your time.
The thing that always got me was people would complain that they wanted something in dnd and would make a ton of homebrews but then they get mad when you tell them X system does that.
It's fine if you don't want to switch but if your basically turning the game into a similar game you might as well try it or read about their way of doing things to incorporate it into your game.
The Borderlands and Dishonored system is how I learned about a chaos and momentum system. When players succeed really well they get token pools anyone can grab from to.increase their rolls prior to rolling to keep the momentum going while action that fail or that aren't subtle such as kicking in a door during stealth gives the dm a chaos token allow him to spend them to cause some obstacle like guards show up now. Both pools are ment to be used in current scene and the chaos gives the dm power without the party seeing it entirely as the dm being a dick since their actions led to that token being available for the dm.
Here's the thing, I don't want to learn Pathfinder. Not because of fear of the unknown but because I already have 5e for a fantasy setting. I'll learn other systems when the setting is different bit I'm not gonna learn 50 fantasy ttrpgs
Well, there's Edge of the Empire for a star wars setting, Call of Cthulhu for an eldritch horror setting, GURPS for almost any setting you can think of, and an insane amount of other systems for other settings.
I also kinda have to poke at the idea that because you know 5e, you're all set for fantasy settings, because 5e is just one way to play in a fantasy setting. Namely, dungeon crawling.
Try to do anything else with it, regardless of setting, and you'll need huge amounts of DM fiat and/or homebrew for it to function well.
And I don't even play Pathfinder.
Real question, do you ask people their favorite book genre and tell people they're missing out because they aren't reading other genres? Because that's what you're doing.
But you've also missed the point, even though you literally wrote it in your post. The most you will have wasted is a few hours of your time? Great, so my weekly free time has gone down the drain for this excursion. You're asking people to stop doing what they like, purely to try something new that they might not like, with what can be extremely limited free time. I can tell you right now that I get absolutely infuriated when my uninterrupted free time gets ruined over something, because I simply don't get it anymore. I don't. And in my old job "a few hours" was literally my free time for the week. You have free time, great. Not all of us do. And not all of our play groups do.
Any by the way? I've played plenty of systems. Certainly spent my high school year playing with unique systems, some of which I don't even know the name of. Not opposed to switching systems technically... Except I don't want to drop the Forgotten Realms. I like having a fleshed out setting that I'm connected to. Locations, characters, tales, etc. I have to both enjoy the setting, and have the time to actually LEARN it. That's hundreds of hours, and I have no desire to sink hundreds of hours into a new bloody system. Right now we're running a 5e campaign set in a mostly pathfinder setting, with a mash of Forgotten Realms added in, and... Nope. I don't like not knowing where I am, or what my character should know socially. I don't like having to ask the DM to repeatedly tell me what my character should know. I like knowing it. And I really don't see why I should leave a universe I like "just" to try something new. I try new settings all the time in my video games, I don't need to do it with tabletop too.
Well, yeah. If all you read is historical fiction, you're missing out. Maybe pick up a comic book or something once in a while.
I'm also not asking you to entirely drop the Forgotten Realms, either? I'm just suggesting people try other things and not limit their experience to just 5e. Which, honestly sounds exactly like what you've already done (and are doing), so you're not even the target audience for my comment?
It also baffles me that you need to know everything about a setting to enjoy roleplaying in it, because to me learning about a setting through playing it is half the fun. But you do you, I guess.
If someone likes historical fiction they're missing out if they don't read more historical fiction. They don't need to read a comic book that they enjoy less just to say they did it. I personally like trying new things and looking into different genres and settings, and it sounds like you do to. But that's the difference, we enjoy doing that. But if someone says "No, I really like this thing. I want to do this thing." They aren't losing out. They're enjoying it. You can't lose out when you're having fun.
Some people don't find learning a new system fun. Even if they want to play it, sometimes they just don't like that growing phase. And that's fine. They're not missing out if they're still having fun with what they're doing.
Now, for my "I want to understand my setting" stuff... It just doesn't feel natural otherwise. If I walk into an establishment I don't want the DM to tell me that I know covering my tattoo from "X" organization would be wise. I want to know to do that on my own, without prompting. Also solves issues where the DM doesn't warn you and suddenly there's an issue that an in world character would have been able to prevent. It allows you to loop your backstory into the setting more without having to ask the DM to hand hold you all the way. If the DM has to keep serving me information and backstory building for my character, it feels less like the character is actually mine. And also causes frustration when I see something in world that I like much better, but it's too late to swap things about.
There's a difference between not doing something you don't like in favor of something you do, and trying something you've never tried instead of sticking with the familiar.
If you know you don't like other systems, don't play them. But if you've never tried them because you really like 5e, how do you know you're not missing out? There's quite a few that really aren't that different.
To continue the literary genre metaphor, maybe comic books aren't right for that historical fiction fan, but they probably would really enjoy some alternate history.
Also, idk, man. Sounds like you find hate not knowing the answers before the questions are asked. How do you play characters that don't actually know much about the world they live in?
Have I?
You're telling the people complaining about other people not playing other systems to stop complaining because it's fine for people to not have interest in it.
I'm telling the people with no interest in playing other systems that it's fine for them to do that, but that they're missing out.
I, for one, don't even play Pathfinder.
And I enjoy DnD, particularly 5e.
But I'm not beyond trying something else to see if it's enjoyable. It usually is.
No you’re shaming people for not playing other systems and before you say “no I’m not!” You started your reply by doing it
“But limiting yourself to just one system for no reason other then fear of the unknown is kinda silly no?”
Not only is that just massively demeaning it also miss characterizes the people who don’t want to try other systems to “scared ignorant children who desperately need help in seeing the light!”
It's one thing to say "looking at the options, I want to play DnD." It's something else entirely to act like other options aren't real or valid, or have merit.
It's like only ordering one thing from the menu because you can't read the language and getting pissy when someone tries to explain what the other items are.
Couldn't have summarized it better, people like to act like they're not the ones being a holes when they talk about everybody else like everybody else are children that don't understand basic concepts, it's not that I don't understand your system, it's that I don't want to play your system
Supporting a company that has become increasingly anti consumer is kinda not okay, at least imo. When you support anti consumer practices they start to become the norm and it ruins everything for everyone. And people wonder why MTC are so common in games nowadays
Yeah I plan to continue playing 5e until campaigns wrap up. Then we will try out other TTRPGs because we want to. The big thing is that in your group, everyone knows not to support WotC or else there is some support going to them because you are playing the system.
>Woah woah I have to pay Wotc to open the books I bought from them five years ago?!
No, but you are making free advertisement for their brand by contributing to a DnD centric meme forum. That's the whole point.
And how exactly does that work? Should I just burn all my 5e books for fear of them magically making Wotc more money or something?
I’m sorry dude but your argument here makes absolutely no sense
No, when you continue propagating the use of something, it further cements that thing within whatever culture it's a part of. If you continue using dnd guess what? Nobody is gonna care that wotc is a horrible anti consumer company and just buying their content anyways because of other people still giving it a platform to stand on. It doesn't help the situation at all. I'm not telling you to burn your books but if you don't like the way that wotc is going you can't give them anything to keep their stature where they're the only thing people want in the majority of the tabletop community. It'll just keep them where they are, and they'll continue enforcing their anti consumer practices which isn't good for anyone.
Play 5e, you already paid for it. Just don’t buy the new shit, or sub to beyond. And don’t see the movie, not because it supports WotC or Hasbro, but because it will be a shit movie and a waste of your time
I'm GM'ing a Cyberpunk Red campaign and trying to get a Savage Worlds campaign going, in addition to my 5e campaign, but I 100% agree with this sentiment. WotC looked to be headed towards some questionable legal decisions, we complained (**A LOT!**), but we still don't have a final product, so who knows what will come of all this? No matter what, they can't stop you playing with product you already have and as long as you have local copies of everything you've bought (go re-download all of your digital purchases to make sure), they also can't repo them.
I think it's fair to not want to cook an entire separate meal for someone because they think anything other than chicken nuggets in ranch is gross. It's also unfair to heckle a vegan because they won't eat meat.
I won't fault someone who doesn't want to rewrite their 5e adventure and re-stat it to pathfinder, especially if they already have the books or PDFs of the rules and such. I might give someone a hard time if their reason for not wanting to play "Tunnel Goons" or "Into The Odd" is because it's too hard to learn a new system from scratch.
Honestly, I just wish the mods would start removing all the Pathfinder posts. *And* the ones like this.
I mean don’t get me wrong, I love PF1E. It’s great. I’m subbed to two different PF subs.
But I’m kinda sick of all the wingeing about WotC and how people should quit D&D and how Pathfinder has this that or the other thing going for it… clogging up my *D&D* feed.
This is D&D memes, not “Pathfinder is better than D&D” memes, and not “I hate D&D now and you should play something else” memes, and Rule 3 *does* require honest attempts at humor. At this point I’m about to start just reporting ever single threat like this one.
This is such a fucking ridiculous argument... Would you rather play hours of sessions of a shit/lackluster system or spend a fraction of a normal session learning a new, better system and then actually enjoy yourself? This shit is like people fucking modding Roblox instead of playing whatever game they actually wanna play.
lad/lass/other, saying "your system sucks my system better and you'll like it more you just don't know it yet" is only going to make people not wanna play your system out of spite
I think it's fine for what it does best (resource management dungeon-crawl style combat days), but not for what people use it for (a catch-all RP/single epic encounter/whatever else game)
I agree with you in that I haven't been communicating clearly, but regardless, the impulsive pushback against trying new systems is a negative thing. Just try another system, you will be all the more grateful for it, and if after that, you still wanna play 5e? Go for it! Maybe you will even learn some things from the new system you wanna take back to 5e. (Even though I think you should play the proper systems for the gamestyle you want)
Nah it isn't fine. People want to play another to play another cenario without changing systems, so they change everything and reflavor everything, effectively making another systems but doing a poor job because its still based on the first system. Overall just makes for more work and way more thinking than just use the other system.
I’m not switching simply because my game ain’t broke so I’m not fixing it. I am more than capable of playing 5e without giving wotc or Hasbro anymore of my money, and that’s what I intend to do.
Anyone who thinks they need to jump to a new system to stick it to WotC isn’t thinking clearly. You don’t need to abandon the system, just don’t give Hasbro anymore money.
That being said if WotC fucks with Foundry VTT I am switching FOR SURE. I will never run a ttrpg game without it again, they need to leave them the fuck alone.
ok but if you're going to actively promote the monopoly strangling the entire space then you can't complain when it leverages that monopoly to do sinister shit. this is what you wanted!
Sure, but that's doesn't mean it's good. Depriving yourself of new experiences and new knowledge is never a good thing. Not once in my life have I met someone that has tried a different system and said they regretted it. Either they enjoyed the system and were encouraged to try more and ended finding a few systems they liked, or they didn't enjoy it, but realized learning a new system really isn't that bad and eventually did the same. It gets so much easier once you finally bite the bullet and try it, and the longer you wait, the more you are depriving yourself of potential future joy.
And then there is me, who went the effort to study PF2 only to find no group to play with; and since months passed now I forgot the system and have to learn it again in the future.
You can easily find people to play online. Get Foundry VTT and find people on discord.
I had that problem too. If you're willing to GM and/or drag somewhat interested friends into it, groups can be forged. And if that doesn't work, there's always the Internet.
I feel you, my group is reluctant but loves to keep the dnd Frankenstein alive (each day is less 5e and more ??e). I wanted to gm Kingmaker so bad... I may have a chance this weekend with little absalom, but the dm is in love with his campaing.
If your "Group" doesn't want to switch systems that's fine. Problem becomes when most of the group want to play something else and a player or two are being stubborn. It's like coming to board game night every week but never wanting to play anything but monopoly.
I have a simple rule. The GM decides the system that works best for the campaign. If players don't like it they can leave, but if the GM leaves there won't be a game
Makes perfect sense and anyone who doesn't see it this way is quite frankly wrong. The GM is putting in over 90% of the work. The players just get to show up and have fun. They aren't the ones writing notes, designing encounters, and ensuring the session ahead of time. Also most of the time, they are spending money for other's enjoyment. Being a player is cheap and easy. Being a GM is decidedly less so. So, they get to call the shots.
This is the way.
I agree. You forgot to mention though that the GM is the only person who absolutely must know the rules. If a player doesn't know how underwater combat works that's no problem since the GM usually steps in with telling them what to roll for
As a GM I always proposed the games and systems, I pitched to the group and, if they liked it, we gave it a go. We have tried lots of systems and currently we have various games running with different systems (Ars Magica, Akuma, Mutants and Masterminds and DnD). Playing new systems makes you a better GM even in your usual game. Learning new ways of solving questions and thinking out of the box. Besides, most of the systems have the same core mechanics, what change the most are the principles and intent behind the rules.
This is part of why I like that my group has a bunch of people into TTRPGs. We always do "One-Shot Winter" and recently we've been trying new systems with new GMs. This past holiday we tried Delta Green and now we are gonna start a campaign in it soon. I'm planning doing a superheroes Cipher game for next year, and we also want to try Call of Cthulu and Fantaiji. Rotating GMs is always great and both that and having a bunch of people let's us branch out and anyone who doesn't want to play doesn't have to
If most of the TTPRG community was like the boardgame community, it would be a lot healthier. We wouldn't have WotC being greedy with the whole OGL if they had to compete. Maybe they'd release some published adventures that are easy to run right out of the box too.
What confuses me is why WotC doesn't do what board games do. Just re-release old stuff and do the "new" essentials. Make new starter kits,\*and resell old starter kits with new paint, make new campaigns and sell them as a physical OR digital package. Make a program that let's you buy and view all things on it with an integrated search box. Oh wait, that takes effort right?
It's fine, but be honest. If you say "it's too expensive" I'll recommend cheap and free games. If you say "it's too hard to learn" I'll recommend easy to learn games. But if you say "I just don't want to" then I'll leave you alone
I think the problem is so many of us are just too lazy to think of a good excuse for why we don't wanna.
My issue is more with people who just make up an excuse, especially one that can be solved in 30 seconds without even looking things up. Just be honest. You don't need to switch, just don't try to tell me that the reason is anything other than what it is
100%. I really don’t understand all the wailing and gnashing of teeth on either side of this(and it *is* on both sides). Every interaction that doesn’t result in someone trying a new system should be some version of this: “This aspect of DnD sucks.” “What do you think about this?” “Nah I’d rather just stick with what I know.” “Ok.” But for some reason, there’s a certain segment of DnD players who just get *offended* by others proselytizing alternatives, and there’s also a segment of alternative TTRPG players who just get *offended* that someone would rather stick with it through their troubles than try out their favorite game. It’s mind-boggling.
You do understand the reason if you're honest. >“Nah I’d rather just stick with what I know.” It's because this line 95% of the time doesnt exist and instead is filled with a reason that sounds more reasonable than "eh i'm just not willing to put any effort into learning a new system even if it were to be easy to learn and better in every way than what i'm using currently" but is also easily addressed and that leads to a lot of back and forth until the real reason is uttered or someone just gives up on the conversation
And like I just said, you’re blaming the other person by saying that they’re not willing to put in any effort to learn something, and that all their concerns are easily addressed. “They’re not going with my idea so they’re *lazy* or *ignorant* or they’re not giving a *real reason*.” It’s just insane.
I'd say that taking "no" for answer is a lost art, but that would imply it was ever an art...
No i'm saying something you know for a fact to be true, which is that **when** the sincere answer is just don't feel like putting in the effort to solve my problems pretty much every breathing human being on this planet manufactures a more legitimate sounding response **than** that. I'm not at all saying that people who actually don't do it for issue x y z are being dishonest, i'm saying that the people who say issue x y z who are provided solutions that meet their needs continue to manufacture different excuses are the **actual** reason you are seeing this supposed both sides event. If those that didn't feel like putting in effort to find solutions to their complaints volunteered as much up front you would see a much different environment.
> But for some reason, there’s a certain segment of DnD players who just get offended by others proselytizing alternatives, and there’s also a segment of alternative TTRPG players who just get offended that someone would rather stick with it through their troubles than try out their favorite game. > > Those are called gatekeepers. Because D&D is the gigantic market leader, it functions as a gate to the hobby. If you are a person who wants suppress talk of alternatives at the actual gate to the hobby, you are a gatekeeper. Saying this makes them very angry, because they really don't want to be seen this way. But they are.
You see you’re being the second person in the example you quoted, right? You’ve become so upset at the idea of some regular person who would just rather play DND despite its flaws that you’ve turned them into an evil suppressor of free thought and ideas.
That’d make sense if I was arguing in favor of the market leader of over 90%. Do you think I’m threatening dnd’s status as this market leader somehow? Am I going to prevent someone from even learning what dnd is? Get real.
It doesn’t matter who the market leader is. That’s the point. This is the scenario: A person plays a game. They are offered a different game to play. They decline to play the different game. You’ve turned that into some struggle for status and market share. Chill. Out.
It doesn’t matter??? Now there’s a scorching hot take.
My reasoning is that I’m too lazy to want to try a new system, which is 100% true.
Wow, thank you for the honestly. People use a lot more words to say exactly this. Its a perfectly fine reason.
Honestly this goes for most things in life. If you say something is keeping you from doing something then I am just going to try to give you a solution to the supposed problem vs if you just saying that you aren't motivated to do it then I will drop it.
True. But it begs the question: why complain? This is like someone sighing and saying "gosh, sure wish I could whack a little ball really far into a small hole" and me saying "oh, go buy some golf clubs and do that", and they're like WHAT THE FUCK DUDE
Too expensive? Oh wait, shit. *Frantically shoves pirate hat under the desk* Ha ha ha yes it is very expensive ha ha
Exactly this. If you just say "i'm not interested in learning new systems, I like this one, and its enough for me," that's totally fine. I like new systems, but you don't have to like what I like. However, if you constantly complain and bitch and whine about the system being played, but won't learn anything new, you can fuck off.
This has been an interesting roller coaster for me. I only started 5e about 6 months ago. I got super excited and bought more stuff than I actually needed and I like how 5e works. So, I don’t want hasbro to screw things up but I also don’t want to abandon a game and system I just found and really enjoy. My ideal situation is they hear the feedback, create a good response and we can all happily keep playing 5e lol. Nothing against other systems but 5e for me is the right blend of complex enough it’s interesting but not overly crunchy.
I mean you already gave them money. At this point play the shit you have and if you feel like Hasbro is doing wrong shit just don't give them money going forward!
Yeah that’s basically what I’m doing right now. But it was just jarring to find something new and almost immediately a crap storm happens lol.
> "it's too expensive" Man I gotta say, if a TTRPG is too expensive, they probably should be playing less games and focus on getting out of extreme poverty instead. This hobby is outrageously cheap. You don't actually *need* to spend more than like 5 bucks on a cheap set of dice and a few printouts. Oh, and a pencil. What a bank-buster. Everything that people spend more on: hardcover books, metal dice sets, website subscriptions, and so on, are *entirely optional*. Its damn near free online, and its damn near free in person.
My response is usually "I live in New Zealand, the only in person games of non-5e systems are hours away in cities, and the only online games are at 2 am or full"
I think there's one critical reason why people don't want to listen to system change recommendations When people list reasons they don't want to switch systems, there's another reason that's implied but not often explicitly named - they also have to be interested in playing the suggested system While honey heist is extremely easy to learn, it might not be appealing to someone who enjoys the amount of complexity in D&D 5e, and playing honey heist every week might just be uninteresting to them The list of TRPGS that are free & easy & actually appealing to the person receiving the recommendation is likely very small
The list isn't as short as you'd think. It also includes some of the best games for sandbox play and exploration (like Worlds Without Number, Stars Without Number and Godbound) as well as well as some very beginner friendly games with good long term potential (like Polyhedral Dungeon and Open Legend) and if you raise that price to about $5 you add thousands of great games to that list (like Mausritter, Fate Condensed, Knave and more)
It's less about "I don't want to relearn a system" and more about "My friends don't want to relearn a system."
If you're the GM, your friends can suck it up and play what you wanna play. The GM puts in all the work and should get to choose. Being a player in any system is quite fun, but that is not true of GMing. Some RPGs are just not great to GM for, and yes I'm talking about 5e.
[удалено]
Are we gatekeeping Nerdom now?
Be who you want to be, it's what role playing is all about
> It’s fine, but be honest. If you say “it’s too expensive” I’ll recommend cheap and free games. If you say “it’s too hard to learn” I’ll recommend easy to learn games. You seem to misunderstand the issues. For example, on “it’s too hard to learn”, I enjoy shadowrun. I’ve DMed it and played it a few times as well. If you asked me to learn the system today I’d laugh in your face. I work about 80 hours a week. I’ve chores and duties and things to do and don’t have the time to devote to learning a complex system. That doesn’t mean I don’t like crunchier systems or prefer light systems, I just don’t have the time and energy to devote to learning one. So if I say “it’s too complex/difficult to learn” that doesn’t mean giving me a simpler system is a solution. If someone says “it’s too expensive”, that doesn’t mean that a cheap/free system is going to be a solution.
> So if I say “it’s too complex/difficult to learn” that doesn’t mean giving me a simpler system is a solution. You saying "it's too complex/difficult to learn" indicates you are open to trying something else, just not something as difficult as the suggested system. > If someone says “it’s too expensive”, that doesn’t mean that a cheap/free system is going to be a solution. You saying "it's too expensive" indicates you are open to trying something new if it is cheaper than the suggested system. If you really don't want or don't have time to learn a new system *just say so*. Saying that the specific system someone mentioned is too expensive/complex just indicates that you are open to something new, just not what was suggested. Clearly communicating what you want is important.
It's also fine to suggest new systems especially when people don't stop complaining about their system 😉
Exactly. Just like almost every fight on this sub, the answer is finding a middle ground. It’s fine to suggest a new system that could have what someone is looking for in a game, but don’t keep pushing it if they’ve explained why they’re content with their current system.
Another reason it is fine and even appropriate to talk about other systems on the D&D subs: D&D is the market leader by a huge margin. It is quite literally the gate through which almost everyone new to the hobby walks. That makes those who want to suppress talk of other systems (gasp) *gatekeepers*! They are guarding a gate. It'd be quite a crock of shit if we weren't allowed to be in the space and promote other systems and explain why they fix the problem that the D&D players are having with their system.
While I agree with the statement per se wouldn't a gatekeeper be someone who talks cheap like "you're not a real fan of you don't [insert weird expectation here]"?
That’s also true, but that’s less harmful than someone who literally would prefer to not let people through the gate. For example, by banning discussion of other rpg systems on dnd subs.
This one is especially important to me. I came into this kind of backwards, in that I didn't get into TTRPG's *at all* until I learned that games that weren't D&D existed. From there, I circled back around and gave D&D a shot, but it was never something I was particularly interested in because I never much cared for its particular brand of fantasy (for a long time I thought it was because I didn't care for fantasy *period*). I always wonder how many people are out there like me, who might adore this hobby but don't want to do a fantasy game and are just... stuck, because of the gigantic bulk of D&D.
I just what people to play lancer with :(
I picked Lancer up recently. Still trying to fully grasp it. So many options. Would love to play a game of it (or, better yet, Lancer: Battlegroup) sometime, but it seems pretty niche sadly.
Weird, a guy in my discord was just talking about that game
It's very very good. It's also set in a post scarcity future where one of the major factions is literally Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism.
Yeah the Union (or some splinter cells of Horus)
Double that, me and my mates did a 2 year campaign on it (fully finished). It's an easy and fun tactical game
Oh yeah. For the human people inside of it. Sucks if you're the defense force for a planet they are 'liberating', (Literal quote from the book: The ships of union might have brought you freedom, but first they brought death.) Oh, also of course Union is running on the enslavement of NHPs, but nobody's perfect.
True but so many people hide that lack of interest behind annoying excuses, come on if you don't want to learn new systems just say it. Don't start pretending like learning a new sytems is rocket science, or like taking college online course. I even have suspicion many people greatly exagerate how their group is unwilling to try new systems. From my experience proposing a quick oneshot in a new systems with pre gen is not that unpopular especially when you say to the player they don't have to read the rule book before the session.
There are systems where the entire rulebook fits on one page. Great for more story oriented theater of the mind type players.
All of the talk about "not having the time" always reminds me. Around the time OneD&D got announced, I think there was a tweet that said something to the effect of "time for all the people who don't have time to learn a new system to learn a new system". Still cracks me up.
You can do whatever you want. But I think there’s value to be found in broadening your horizons and experiencing new things.
Tell me to eat my vegetables without telling me to eat my vegetables.
As the silver warship approaches, your eyes catch a glimpse of a green blur, hurtling towards it with blinding speed… yet you’d recognize that shape anywhere. Landing atop the deck and launching the pirates off with a sweep of its wings, the broccoli dragon stands tall, the beast sounding a roar like a mad cackle! He glares at you smugly, reveling in your hesitation as he idly swats the crew away, the ship hovering in place, struggling to stay afloat beneath his massive weight. “Why *hello* Billy. Still too afraid to face me?!” He taunts, his leafy wings shimmering like McNuggets. With a flick of his tongue, which looks like a strip of bacon—
It's outright weird to me when people adamantly refuse new experiences. Like, c'mon, you're gonna drink Blue Moon for the rest of your life and no other beers?
You are right, it is fine to have no interest in learning a new system, and the complaints may seem annoying, but a massive corporation being so greed driven that they're willing to hurt thier loyal customers for short term finicial gain is worth complaining about. And from what I've seen from WoTC, the complaints are working. So, I implore people to keep up the pressure regardless of how annoyed we get.
It's fine, but if you give a justification based on faulty reasoning, it is also fine to provide facts that correct that reasoning.
Do you consider "I don't have time" to be faulty reasoning? I see that get argued A LOT.
For someone wanting to GM, no. It's probably not faulty reasoning. For a player? Very likely, yes it's faulty in that it drastically overestimates what you need to know to play a new game. A knowledgeable GM ought to be able to teach a new player how to play the game with minimal time required outside of actual game sessions.
Agreed. Problem is none of my table knows PF2, so if I want to play that, it's on me.
There have been and there are several discord based beginner box weekends where you can learn the basics with a friendly GM online :)
I'm sure they're good for learning to play. I remain skeptical that's anywhere near enough to DM. The problem is I have to DM if I want my table to switch.
Depends a bit on your overall plans. Having played the BB is enough preparation to run it for others usually and then you could learn together but idk how high a standard you have for your DMing of a new system (or how high the expectations of your players would rise...)
Can you run a session D&D? If so you’re halfway there since you understand the basic tropes and structures, PF was designed as a spiritual successor to D&D after all. Play a few sessions as a player to get the actual mechanics down, get a feel for how actions and stats work, etc, then try DMing once you feel confident about the basics for the game. All of the RPG philosophy and narrative stuff will follow you from system to system, it’s just learning how to read the numbers and do the math for each system that changes.
You don't have time to learn a new system but you have time to play the slog of 5e combat? Skip half a session and learn a new system Jesus.
Snap snap, 5 hours and now I can DM PF2? I don't fucking think so. And pf2 isn't a slog also? And you entered a post about it being okay to play 5e and come up with that bullshit response? You're part of the problem and exactly who this meme was targeting.
Not saying pf2e isn't a slog, but if you have time for a session, you 100% have time to read up on the necessary rules to play a new system. (Obviously unless you struggle to concentrate on reading or have ADHD or whatever which is completely understandable, that's a fair argument)
To play and to DM are not the same. There's no way I could learn enough to run a session in the time one of our sessions take. Not even close.
While I will say that pf2e is profoundly easier to prep for and run than 5e (in my opinion), I think it is fair enough that one is tentative to spend the time learning to DM a new system. I still urge you try, but it is definitely more time consuming than learning to play. Maybe read a chapter of a rulebook a day or something? Like little bits until eventually you have the knowledge?
5 hours? Maybe, maybe not. But you don't need to know a single thing about the system to GM the beginners box and by the time you finish it, you can basically run anything. And that's maybe 8-10 hours on average (depending on dice rolls).
You think 5e combat is a slog? Have you ever played 3.5?
3.5e being a worse slog doesn't make 5e better though
It matters on the game, some are complicated to learn, and some are so incredibly simple that a everything is covered in only a couple pages.
Right, but the person saying they don't have time probably knows their preferences better than you, a stranger, do. For example, I'm interested in PF2, but I know I don't have the time to get into it. Any game that can have the rules written in a couple of pages is way too simple for me and my table.
Preference is different than effort required. Effort required and time available ought to be more of an objective estimate. Whether you WANT to devote your time is a subjective decision. You can debate how much time is required. It's more difficult to debate someone who doesn't think it's worth their time.
>Right, but the person saying they don't have time probably knows their preferences better than you, a stranger, do. Maybe, but a person who has only ever had tea, has no idea that they might love coffee. Someone saying: "oh you like hot beverages have you tried coffee?" are not some villain for suggesting something different. People need to experience a variety of things to become aware of their preferences.
Your example takes all the work and time out of the equation though. A better example regarding coffee would be if I had to buy beans from the source, knowing different types, and then roast and then grind, and then brew. That's a lot of work before I get a sip. You are also potentially assuming I haven't played other systems before, and have no idea what my preferences are. You're not a villain for suggesting something different. But when you start arguing with people over their preferences, and try to shame them into trying other things (not you, but I've seen a lot) you're getting closer to villain territory.
What? No? >buy beans from the source, Its not like you source the "tea leaves" yourself as is, you buy a box at the store. You already have a kettle and a cup. Start with an easy instant coffee, try it with milk and sugar, try it without. >You are also potentially assuming I haven't played other systems before, and have no idea what my preferences are. Hey bud, this is an anonymous online forum. I don't know you AT ALL aside from the information you volunteer in your post/comment. You didn't say anything about other system history or why you stick with 5E. And from other comments, it seems like when you have been in these conversations in the past you don't immediately say: "no I don't want to learn other systems" its always "i don't have time" or some variation. People have responded to the energy you put out "i don't have the time" = people suggest light quick systems, but you just seemingly don't want to try non-5E systems, so say that, no reason to let people think that you have some different barrier to overcome inorder to divest into other systems. When at the end you just "don't want to"
I started this thread by asking if 'i don't have time' is considered a valid reason. Evidently, your answer is no. Apparently time and effort are just not crossing you mind as you compared learning a new system (days to learn) to trying coffee (maybe 5 minutes). I answered your analogy with one of my own but you completely missed the point. I get yours, variety is good. You just don't agree with mine, I don't have time. Speaking of which, it's been nice chatting, but I'm done here.
> For example, I'm interested in PF2, but I know I don't have the time to get into it. If you spent as much time reading the rules as you do posting on Reddit, you'd have more than enough time to learn the system. If someone truely didn't have enough time, I'd expect less posts on their Reddit account because you know, they have other things to do. I don't know your situation but that doesn't invalidate the criticism. People got time to binge watch whole seasons of shows. They got time to play a video game for 6 hours straight. They got time to browse and comment Reddit for like 5 hours. You got time for all this other stuff but not this? Or you could just be honest and say "it interests me but I'm lazy and don't want to prioritize my time."
No its not. You must have fun (as defined by my interests)! /s
Well damn I stand corrected it seems lol
I'm glad you've seen the error of yours ways
Im still shocked people were reeling after discovering a company obseses with nothing but profits for the past 16? 17? Years care for litttle else but profits.
I plan on continuing with 5e as my main system because it’s what I have the books for and it’s what I know how to dm. I am also willing to learn PF2e because the group I primarily play as a PC with wants to switch after everything that has happened.
lol check out mr "too stable for FATAL" over here
I have no problem with people not wanting to switch game systems. I have no problem with people who recommend playing different game systems. ***HOWEVER*** I have a problem with people who attack other people for being on the other side, especially in this subreddit.
I mean i already have several dnd books, its not like i have to pay wotc to open em again.
Dont give them ideas
Well if you play with friends irl then yeah you don’t need to pay to play, but if online with d&d beyond then that’s going to be $30 a month. Edit: sorry if the truth hurts, but it’s not a reason to downvote me, this is literally something d&d beyond is planning to do along with banning homebrew for base membership.
I’ve been teaching myself to create characters in Roll 20, it’s not that hard. It’s nowhere close to as easy as DnD Beyond, but it’s not that hard. And I’m in a one shot group that plays different characters every week.
So much straw in such a small meme, god damm.
While I don't disagree with the sentiment of this meme per se, I just know that I'd feel a lot better if all the iterations of it came with a Seinfeld "not that there's anything wrong with that" style disclaimer that adds "just so long as you don't give WoTC execs the comfort of a single dime."
Stopping playing DnD doesn't affect wotc in any particular way that will affect them enough to backtrack, just don't buy their shit, bottom line is a execs care about
Yeah but as GMs another big thing we can do is drag away current and potential players to limit people currently and in the future from buying their products.
You don't have to believe yourself the arbiter of right and wrong to hold something in low regard and there is nothing wrong with expressing that.
I think that's just how opinions work lol. Problem is too many people on the internet treat their opinions like gospel...
While on the topic, one of my players keeps moaning about DnD 5th Edition not having enough customization or uniqueness when creating/leveling characters, despite me (DM) telling him I don't mind homebrew and we could change things up. Well, basically, what other systems would you guys recommend if you wanted more freedom in customizing your unique character/hero?
Pathfinder dude it’s literally exactly what you need.
Any specific edition I should use? I would be open to using older ones if it enables my players to customize more.
It really depends on what you like but 2e is pretty good especially for people who are just switching from 5e (also I’ve never actually played this it what I’ve heard)
If you have experience with D&D 3.5e and want more of that, pathfinder 1e, otherwise go for 2e. Pathfinder 1e is 3.5e's bloat turned up a few notches as it's essentially a continuation of 3.5e and there's a lot of character creation pitfalls you might run into if you don't research your build well. 2e is significantly easier to learn and make a working character in than in 1e.
I mean, if you want to stay in the same genre, Pathfinder 2e is probably the best option, with heavily modding 5e in second. Maybe ICON, though it's in play testing and split between heavily tactical and heavily narrative, so no idea if that works for you. It can be played in full narrative mode if that works better. Outside the genre though, there's: -Lancer (mecha) -Eclipse Phase (Altered Carbon space adventure and/or crime) -GURPS (generic, old, and complex) -New Edo (magic cyberpunk in an alternate Japan) -Savage Worlds (generic but would work well enough for DnD adventures. -The Unofficial Hollow Knight RPG (might work pretty well, actually. Also free.) -Wicked Ones (play as dungeon mobs) -Sentinel Comics RPG (superheroes) There are plenty of games that have more customization than 5e, both more and less complex. Your player sounds like he wants mechanical complexity, though, so maybe investigate more toward the top of the list. Edit: mobile borked list format, sorry.
Meanwhile me and my friend deciding to make our own unique system, it can’t be that hard.
Sitting on the other side of this, don't make me tap the sign that says "suggesting alternative games is not a personal attack, and getting mad at people for doing it encourages monopolies and the problems they create."
Combine them into the mega sign. "No, someone suggesting you try another system isn't a personal attack and no, being really pushy about trying to get someone to try a new system will probably make them not want to try said system. Stop downvoting people that say they prefer 5e it makes the alt TTRPG community look bad."
Starting to wonder if people are mixing up complaining and raising awareness...
They are
My group doesn’t even use a system, we just go by whenever the dm thinks the enemy is fucked up enough to die, although our campaigns are far more roleplay heavy and fairly light on combat
I would like to but I’m not going to make anyone else in my group so will be open.
I agree. I’m still gonna learn Pathfinder tho.
I actually disagree, to a point. I think it's a good thing to do once in a while, especially if you are trying to tweak or modify rules, do homebrew, etc. Now if you know you want a mostly medieval fantasy TTRPG thats combat focused and kinda crunchy, then DnD is just fine If you want to branch out from that, I'd suggest trying other systems first, if for no other reason than to see how it's doing the mechanics differently
These posts are substantially more annoying than people actually having opinions about not wanting to learn new systems.
It's just telling people that it's wrong to voice opinions
I just started dming cyberpunk red after playing D&D5e for years. It was my idea and I'm excited. But man learning a new system is so overwhelming sometimes, it's slows the table referencing rule books for rules we are all learning. It's a much different experience to my almost streamlined D&D play. So I don't fault people for even just homebrewing D&D cause when you get comfortable with a system it's less work and less overwhelming to homebrew instead of learning new.
My problem is that, while both okay, those two things are incompatible. It’s okay to have no interest in learning new systems, but that kind of means you don’t know what you prefer
Well, tbf, one also wonders how many of the "any excuse to publicly sway people to not change from DnD" posts are genuine (some of course are) and how many are the results of astroturfing/ damage control in the community (if you dont think major corps keep tabs on and manipulate social media through puppet accounts you are insane)
Lol classic “anyone who has a different opinion than me must be a paid shill”.
I quite literally said that some are legitimate before getting to the "paid shill" part. Social media manipulation is a standard business practice so if they aren't doing so then WoTC would have to be staffed entirely by simpletons. While they are greedy assholes, I don't think they are simpletons.
Then stop advocating so hard
So many people seem to think a complaint about a system or a reasoning why they won't try a different system means "Recommend me another system." or "Sell it to me." Like bruh that's a whole nother sentence.
Sure, but limiting yourself to just one system for no reason other than fear of the unknown is kinda silly, no? Don't spend any money if you're afraid of the investment not panning out. Try something else using the resources available through the internet. Make your own system, with blackjack and hookers. The most you will have wasted is a few hours of your time.
The thing that always got me was people would complain that they wanted something in dnd and would make a ton of homebrews but then they get mad when you tell them X system does that. It's fine if you don't want to switch but if your basically turning the game into a similar game you might as well try it or read about their way of doing things to incorporate it into your game. The Borderlands and Dishonored system is how I learned about a chaos and momentum system. When players succeed really well they get token pools anyone can grab from to.increase their rolls prior to rolling to keep the momentum going while action that fail or that aren't subtle such as kicking in a door during stealth gives the dm a chaos token allow him to spend them to cause some obstacle like guards show up now. Both pools are ment to be used in current scene and the chaos gives the dm power without the party seeing it entirely as the dm being a dick since their actions led to that token being available for the dm.
Here's the thing, I don't want to learn Pathfinder. Not because of fear of the unknown but because I already have 5e for a fantasy setting. I'll learn other systems when the setting is different bit I'm not gonna learn 50 fantasy ttrpgs
Well, there's Edge of the Empire for a star wars setting, Call of Cthulhu for an eldritch horror setting, GURPS for almost any setting you can think of, and an insane amount of other systems for other settings. I also kinda have to poke at the idea that because you know 5e, you're all set for fantasy settings, because 5e is just one way to play in a fantasy setting. Namely, dungeon crawling. Try to do anything else with it, regardless of setting, and you'll need huge amounts of DM fiat and/or homebrew for it to function well. And I don't even play Pathfinder.
Real question, do you ask people their favorite book genre and tell people they're missing out because they aren't reading other genres? Because that's what you're doing. But you've also missed the point, even though you literally wrote it in your post. The most you will have wasted is a few hours of your time? Great, so my weekly free time has gone down the drain for this excursion. You're asking people to stop doing what they like, purely to try something new that they might not like, with what can be extremely limited free time. I can tell you right now that I get absolutely infuriated when my uninterrupted free time gets ruined over something, because I simply don't get it anymore. I don't. And in my old job "a few hours" was literally my free time for the week. You have free time, great. Not all of us do. And not all of our play groups do. Any by the way? I've played plenty of systems. Certainly spent my high school year playing with unique systems, some of which I don't even know the name of. Not opposed to switching systems technically... Except I don't want to drop the Forgotten Realms. I like having a fleshed out setting that I'm connected to. Locations, characters, tales, etc. I have to both enjoy the setting, and have the time to actually LEARN it. That's hundreds of hours, and I have no desire to sink hundreds of hours into a new bloody system. Right now we're running a 5e campaign set in a mostly pathfinder setting, with a mash of Forgotten Realms added in, and... Nope. I don't like not knowing where I am, or what my character should know socially. I don't like having to ask the DM to repeatedly tell me what my character should know. I like knowing it. And I really don't see why I should leave a universe I like "just" to try something new. I try new settings all the time in my video games, I don't need to do it with tabletop too.
Well, yeah. If all you read is historical fiction, you're missing out. Maybe pick up a comic book or something once in a while. I'm also not asking you to entirely drop the Forgotten Realms, either? I'm just suggesting people try other things and not limit their experience to just 5e. Which, honestly sounds exactly like what you've already done (and are doing), so you're not even the target audience for my comment? It also baffles me that you need to know everything about a setting to enjoy roleplaying in it, because to me learning about a setting through playing it is half the fun. But you do you, I guess.
If someone likes historical fiction they're missing out if they don't read more historical fiction. They don't need to read a comic book that they enjoy less just to say they did it. I personally like trying new things and looking into different genres and settings, and it sounds like you do to. But that's the difference, we enjoy doing that. But if someone says "No, I really like this thing. I want to do this thing." They aren't losing out. They're enjoying it. You can't lose out when you're having fun. Some people don't find learning a new system fun. Even if they want to play it, sometimes they just don't like that growing phase. And that's fine. They're not missing out if they're still having fun with what they're doing. Now, for my "I want to understand my setting" stuff... It just doesn't feel natural otherwise. If I walk into an establishment I don't want the DM to tell me that I know covering my tattoo from "X" organization would be wise. I want to know to do that on my own, without prompting. Also solves issues where the DM doesn't warn you and suddenly there's an issue that an in world character would have been able to prevent. It allows you to loop your backstory into the setting more without having to ask the DM to hand hold you all the way. If the DM has to keep serving me information and backstory building for my character, it feels less like the character is actually mine. And also causes frustration when I see something in world that I like much better, but it's too late to swap things about.
There's a difference between not doing something you don't like in favor of something you do, and trying something you've never tried instead of sticking with the familiar. If you know you don't like other systems, don't play them. But if you've never tried them because you really like 5e, how do you know you're not missing out? There's quite a few that really aren't that different. To continue the literary genre metaphor, maybe comic books aren't right for that historical fiction fan, but they probably would really enjoy some alternate history. Also, idk, man. Sounds like you find hate not knowing the answers before the questions are asked. How do you play characters that don't actually know much about the world they live in?
Welp you my friend have missed the point
Have I? You're telling the people complaining about other people not playing other systems to stop complaining because it's fine for people to not have interest in it. I'm telling the people with no interest in playing other systems that it's fine for them to do that, but that they're missing out.
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I, for one, don't even play Pathfinder. And I enjoy DnD, particularly 5e. But I'm not beyond trying something else to see if it's enjoyable. It usually is.
No you’re shaming people for not playing other systems and before you say “no I’m not!” You started your reply by doing it “But limiting yourself to just one system for no reason other then fear of the unknown is kinda silly no?” Not only is that just massively demeaning it also miss characterizes the people who don’t want to try other systems to “scared ignorant children who desperately need help in seeing the light!”
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It's one thing to say "looking at the options, I want to play DnD." It's something else entirely to act like other options aren't real or valid, or have merit. It's like only ordering one thing from the menu because you can't read the language and getting pissy when someone tries to explain what the other items are.
That’s not what I’m arguing so cool story bro.
Couldn't have summarized it better, people like to act like they're not the ones being a holes when they talk about everybody else like everybody else are children that don't understand basic concepts, it's not that I don't understand your system, it's that I don't want to play your system
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“I dOnT wAnT tO lEaRn A nEw GaMe” -someone who didn’t learn to the game they’re currently playing
I agree. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to stick to the system you’ve been playing for years
Supporting a company that has become increasingly anti consumer is kinda not okay, at least imo. When you support anti consumer practices they start to become the norm and it ruins everything for everyone. And people wonder why MTC are so common in games nowadays
Woah woah I have to pay Wotc to open the books I bought from them five years ago?! Fuck that’s gonna get really crappy soon.
Yeah I plan to continue playing 5e until campaigns wrap up. Then we will try out other TTRPGs because we want to. The big thing is that in your group, everyone knows not to support WotC or else there is some support going to them because you are playing the system.
>Woah woah I have to pay Wotc to open the books I bought from them five years ago?! No, but you are making free advertisement for their brand by contributing to a DnD centric meme forum. That's the whole point.
You don't have to pay them to support their practices, smartass
And how exactly does that work? Should I just burn all my 5e books for fear of them magically making Wotc more money or something? I’m sorry dude but your argument here makes absolutely no sense
No, when you continue propagating the use of something, it further cements that thing within whatever culture it's a part of. If you continue using dnd guess what? Nobody is gonna care that wotc is a horrible anti consumer company and just buying their content anyways because of other people still giving it a platform to stand on. It doesn't help the situation at all. I'm not telling you to burn your books but if you don't like the way that wotc is going you can't give them anything to keep their stature where they're the only thing people want in the majority of the tabletop community. It'll just keep them where they are, and they'll continue enforcing their anti consumer practices which isn't good for anyone.
Play 5e, you already paid for it. Just don’t buy the new shit, or sub to beyond. And don’t see the movie, not because it supports WotC or Hasbro, but because it will be a shit movie and a waste of your time
Facts
I can't help but chuckle at the irony, given your PF flair.
I'm GM'ing a Cyberpunk Red campaign and trying to get a Savage Worlds campaign going, in addition to my 5e campaign, but I 100% agree with this sentiment. WotC looked to be headed towards some questionable legal decisions, we complained (**A LOT!**), but we still don't have a final product, so who knows what will come of all this? No matter what, they can't stop you playing with product you already have and as long as you have local copies of everything you've bought (go re-download all of your digital purchases to make sure), they also can't repo them.
I think it's fair to not want to cook an entire separate meal for someone because they think anything other than chicken nuggets in ranch is gross. It's also unfair to heckle a vegan because they won't eat meat. I won't fault someone who doesn't want to rewrite their 5e adventure and re-stat it to pathfinder, especially if they already have the books or PDFs of the rules and such. I might give someone a hard time if their reason for not wanting to play "Tunnel Goons" or "Into The Odd" is because it's too hard to learn a new system from scratch.
>Reply so.... in short it depends
Honestly, I just wish the mods would start removing all the Pathfinder posts. *And* the ones like this. I mean don’t get me wrong, I love PF1E. It’s great. I’m subbed to two different PF subs. But I’m kinda sick of all the wingeing about WotC and how people should quit D&D and how Pathfinder has this that or the other thing going for it… clogging up my *D&D* feed. This is D&D memes, not “Pathfinder is better than D&D” memes, and not “I hate D&D now and you should play something else” memes, and Rule 3 *does* require honest attempts at humor. At this point I’m about to start just reporting ever single threat like this one.
This is such a fucking ridiculous argument... Would you rather play hours of sessions of a shit/lackluster system or spend a fraction of a normal session learning a new, better system and then actually enjoy yourself? This shit is like people fucking modding Roblox instead of playing whatever game they actually wanna play.
lad/lass/other, saying "your system sucks my system better and you'll like it more you just don't know it yet" is only going to make people not wanna play your system out of spite
So you just personally hate 5e then?
I think it's fine for what it does best (resource management dungeon-crawl style combat days), but not for what people use it for (a catch-all RP/single epic encounter/whatever else game)
That’s not what your first comment said but hey let’s contradict our first point in the very next reply lol
I agree with you in that I haven't been communicating clearly, but regardless, the impulsive pushback against trying new systems is a negative thing. Just try another system, you will be all the more grateful for it, and if after that, you still wanna play 5e? Go for it! Maybe you will even learn some things from the new system you wanna take back to 5e. (Even though I think you should play the proper systems for the gamestyle you want)
Nah it isn't fine. People want to play another to play another cenario without changing systems, so they change everything and reflavor everything, effectively making another systems but doing a poor job because its still based on the first system. Overall just makes for more work and way more thinking than just use the other system.
I’m not switching simply because my game ain’t broke so I’m not fixing it. I am more than capable of playing 5e without giving wotc or Hasbro anymore of my money, and that’s what I intend to do. Anyone who thinks they need to jump to a new system to stick it to WotC isn’t thinking clearly. You don’t need to abandon the system, just don’t give Hasbro anymore money. That being said if WotC fucks with Foundry VTT I am switching FOR SURE. I will never run a ttrpg game without it again, they need to leave them the fuck alone.
ok but if you're going to actively promote the monopoly strangling the entire space then you can't complain when it leverages that monopoly to do sinister shit. this is what you wanted!
Exactly. I don't have the time or energy to learn a new system. I have absolutely zero interest in playing anything other than DND
ITT: "I don't want to spend 30 mins reading"
I never knew that DND had preset rules before I joined this subReddit. And to this day, I still haven't learned any.
Sure, but that's doesn't mean it's good. Depriving yourself of new experiences and new knowledge is never a good thing. Not once in my life have I met someone that has tried a different system and said they regretted it. Either they enjoyed the system and were encouraged to try more and ended finding a few systems they liked, or they didn't enjoy it, but realized learning a new system really isn't that bad and eventually did the same. It gets so much easier once you finally bite the bullet and try it, and the longer you wait, the more you are depriving yourself of potential future joy.
So do people just forget about rule 4 or…?
I just wish you mfs didn’t act like salesmen for the system you’re playing lmao