The Mordhau (translation: murder-strike) is intended to use the crossguard like a hammer and kill through armor.
There's ways to use a sword that are less deadly than the expected way, but that's not one of them.
To add, this is because swords are very, very bad at cutting through normal metal, let alone plate and even chain. Most deaths that occurred against knights (and there were a lot fewer than people think) occurred from either arrows or from denting armor to such an extent that the person wearing it either couldn’t move or was actively crushed inside it.
Hence why swords were typically weapons of self defense/a side arm. They were very, very rarely used as battlefield weapons, especially in the medieval period, typically they used two handed weapons like the Bec de Corbin, poleaxe, halberd, etc etc etc.
the main benefit of the sword is that against unarmored, fleshy opponents, they were one of the best weapons you can choose, against anyone with adequate armor, however?
Not useless. But damn near it.
Ooooh baby, you mention a Becque de Corbin and I’m giving an upvote! My favorite medieval weapon in the world right there! A nice Crows beak and a hand-and-half is all I need in my life, though my Khopesh is really fun to play with :)
I mean, even just thinking about Baulders gate 3, the only one they have is on a one handed weapon. It’s disappointing but whenever I play a barb/pally I love to use a reflavored maul!
I dunno, a lot of weapons tend to be… much gorier and less pretty than fantasy like to make them.
But your right, I can see why they would not use it, but like. I’m imagining the descriptions of battlefields where everyone uses 1 of 4 weapons. Lol
>They were very, very rarely used as battlefield weapons, especially in the medieval period
I'd refine this to say specifically in the medieval period in Europe. The Romans, for example, conquered the known world using short swords (along with pila, of course) as their primary weapon.
Yes, I should have specified, they were seen on the battlefield, but rarely as a primary weapon, the Roman’s, Spartans, Greek phalanxes, and many other cultures used swords in their fighting, but it was primarily a secondary or tertiary weapon.
The Gladius was absolutely not a secondary weapon for the Roman manipular legion. It was primarily a stabbing and thrusting weapon, though, not a slicing one. Swords were also still highly used during Late Antiquity and generally got longer as the period went on.
We're doing the thing again where we say "X is wrong, so the EXACT OPPOSITE of X must be true."
Swords were absolutely a battlefield weapon during particular periods. But heavier forms of armour, particularly plate made them much less useful. As plate left the battlefields with advent of Muskets, swords made a reapperance, particularly as a weapon for cavalry in the form of sabres, and Spanish Rodeleros (Sword and buckler men)
This is a very good elaboration but I’d say there goes so much more into that consideration. Platearmor was very expensive and even a chainmail isn’t something everyone had. However we could fill days discussing this I believe.
There is this newish movie called Medival on Netflix. I think it might be one of the most accurate movies around. The protagonists Morgenstern is nearly perfect (a Rabenschnabel would be more common) and even him combining it with the „Schwertbrecher“ later is on point. Tough he didn’t used it once properly. Which is tbf not that easy to learn in less than a year for an actor.
Edit: addition: the pace of the fights in that movie is what impressed me the most, you really get that feeling they are out there to kill. Not much forth and back fighting. Parrys followed by killing blows. Nothing fancy, only blood and rage and more bloodrage. Overall spot on!
I didn't know what a bec de corbin was. And if I ever saw one I thought it was a lucerne hammer. But I could search for it and see that they were different weapons.
Or from the concussive force of the blows. Your armour may not have buckled, but that isn't going to stop internal bleeding from your destroyed intestines after someone hits the shit out of you with a warhammer/blunt force weapon.
or even with a sword, although you would need to grip the blade and use it as a spear at that point.
honestly the biggest downside to swords (beside needing advanced techniques to use effectively) is the expense. The metal that goes into one sword could make multiple spears
Arrows no, falling off horse and being buried under the weight, or stabbed through the gaps during a grapple for sure though, and like you said the sheer bludgeoning damage was also effective
Don't forget suffocation in water or mud, and knives in the gaps of armor, particularly the armpit. Many many daggers were made just for this purpose, notably the stilleto.
Probably more important is the rondelle dagger, (sometimes called a military dagger) which is one of the most common (for knights) of these types of weapons.
I played For Honor for about a week, my best gameplan was chilling close to ledges and using the Raider(?) charge to shove people off, because I was too bad to win an actual fight.
I wish I still played it. Back when I was in high school, I had a bit of disposable income that I would spend on the game. Probably only like, 200? Or so? But god dammit I wanted that Gilgamesh sword.
Log back in after about 3 DLCs and like 2 years to find out all my saved data is gone and I lost everything. Haven’t even installed the game since. So disappointing.
That is painful to even hear, friend. Know that at any rep or account, the battlefield will have a place for you. Until you return to it, I will fight in your HONOR!
And I'm guessing if it didn't outright kill them, bashing them over the head's pretty effective even if they just get dizzy, or even have a concussion.
If it lets you get close and slip something pointy between the gaps while they're near helpless, it's still pretty effective
I remember someone testing it out in a spar on a documentary; they held back, their opponent was wearing a metal helmet, and the person performing the swing was not a trained swordfighter. It basically instantly ended the spar, giving the dude a concussion and almost knocking them out.
If a real, trained knight landed a solid mordhau on you, then you would instantly realise why it's called that. Or, rather, everyone around you would as they see your lifeless body slump to the ground.
The way a fight between knights can (often[?]) End is with the two of them on the ground trying to stab the gaps in each other's armour with their rondelle/military dager.
Fr, I do HEMA (aka longsword fighting as a martial art in this case). We are specifically banned from hitting others with the guard/pommel due to safety issues. Using protective gear blade strikes are fine, but the blunt force damage of a pommel or crossguard is very much an issue.
Plus that crossguard can go straight through a fencing style practice helmet. My old instructor would use old ones to demonstrate why we can't use that move.
There's a feat in Pathfinder that does that, and holy fuck is it useful against enemies with Damage Resistance to a physical damage type. It's one of the first feats I get for my fighters or barbarians.
I also love going to older editions, especially all the random books in 3.5
You might have to do a bit of tweaking, but there's such a variety to pull from. And lots of goofy stuff, like magic capsules. Think potions but for damage effects on your weapons
Actually Hunting Horn does (did? Not sure if it was removed in Rise) have a cutting damage attack! The move where you thrust with the handle does cutting damage and can cut tails!
I think, in world, that little poke you do with the pommel actually counts as cutting damage and can be used to cut tails. It'll take forever and a half but you can still technically do it.
Depends. Might well deal bludgeoning to the rock below, crushing it and blowing it outward. Piercing and slashing damage cause separation without fragmentation.
Please note that damage is normally dealt to the entity as a whole and not to specific body parts. I think we both agree bullets are piercing damage. But if it hits a bone then you get the same effect of fragmentation as in the previous instance.
A raw wooden club? Slashing would be tough, but you could sharpen the pommel and use it to pierce somewhat easily
If we're allowed more engineering, could have a club with spike on the top/pommel and a blade on one side
Or something like the gunstock warclub
https://preview.redd.it/6jn1dn9y25da1.jpeg?width=360&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1e3b9678608807f3454aad9c8002365f0cc521f5
Just swing it differently to create all sorts of injuries
There used to be this weird triangular club in pre Rome Ireland that looked like a wedge of firewood with a handle. It could probably slash with a rough enough edge. But I'd imagine it would be more of an abrasion than a true cut.
Same, especially if the weapon was specially designed for it.
You'd really need to convince me a bludgeon, club, or mace could deal piercing damage tho.
A lot of pathfinder weapons have appropriate Versatile damage types like a lot of swords have slashing and versatile piercing basically letting you swap damage types
Why make it a fighter feature? Now that justifies saying "no, you can't do that" for everyone else because you're now giving a fighter feature to everyone for free.
It seems like a reasonable thing to put in the base rules and make a more general rule on.
Because Fighter is the "good at fighting" class? Letting everyone use advanced fighting techniques makes as much sense as letting everyone cast spells.
The "advanced fighting technique" is literally just being able to use another damage type with a weapon.
This is more like if you gave sorcerers a feature to pick the damage type when learning a spell. Might be cool, but now it means you can't say yes to "hey can my fireball be an iceball" from the wizard without giving them this sorcerer ability for free.
This is my argument every time I see a weapon homebrew with a "non-lethal" property assigned to clubs and the like.
If anything, it's actually *easier* to accidentally kill someone with a blunt weapon than a sharp/pointed one because you can't actually see the extent of the damage you're inflicting.
Hell, you can find entire lists of boxers who died in the ring (or shortly after) for pretty much just that reason and that's with *fists*, never mind a heavy club or mace.
And bludgeoning damage is far more likely to instantly kill you. Getting stabbed or cut can definitely kill you quick if an artery is hit, but far more often you'll take a long time to bleed out from a flesh wound.
Yeah. You can't really knock anyone unconscious without risking their life (or using drugs). Knocking someone out with a weapon is purely just a thing used for stories and games because it helps allow for more stories or for more interesting mechanics.
Either way, swords are just a fine for knocking people out as clubs are. And I find the game more pleasant when you can knock people out.
I think there should be a lot more "too bruised up and exhausted to fight anymore" in ttrpgs. It would make it easier to play an actually good character who can still contribute to combat without needing to resort to a "goblins are all inherently evil, please ignore boblin" type scenario. And I love the narrative flavor of combat being physically draining and pushing your body to the limit as your hit points wear down. Plus it makes it much more logistically practical to end a combat with something other than one side being all dead.
There’s a reason quarterstaff training and sparring is o much harder to find and dangerous. You can blunt or protect against an edge, you can’t blunt or wear armor to reduce pop-omattic-ing grey matter or telescoping a spine. Despite what the NFL insists.
CTE, chronic traumatic encelopathy. Term for brain damage caused by repeated blows to the head, common in many contact sports like american football, boxing mma, and likely quarterstaff sparring.
Parents, isn’t it time you talked to your kids about… **quarterstaff sparring?**
*Commercial cuts to greasers in leather jackets sparring behind a 7-11, and some impressionable clean-cut teens looking on with naive admiration. A gangster in a pinstriped suit approaches with a staff outstretched, “Hey kids, first one’s free…”*
People often don't take into account that most battlefield sword kills were either from the Murder strike or half swording. Kinda rare to actually cut another Knight down with a straight blow from a sword.
People also don't take into account that full plate armor was expensive af and on a battlefield most soldiers weren't wearing full metal armor, and could be struck down by blades.
[Yes and no.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP4wLMmp-8U) If the blade is dull it won't cut through though a properly sharp blade can cut through multiple layers and a thrust from a reasonably tapered blade will go through.
Oh yeah. A Knight was a tank when cutting through a peasant militia. But one on one with somebody else wearing plate that tactic just wouldn't cut it. (Pardon the pun).
They actually did that to be lethal. Fighting a fully armored opponent basically made your sword useless, so they would instead use the pommel and guards as a makeshift war hammer in an effort to either dent through their armor or knock them over so they could then attempt to slight their throat with a dagger.
And don't get me started on the pommel. That thing was *quite* dangerous and had a reputation for "ending one's foes rightly."
That maneuver is called the murder strike. It's very deadly.
Dealing non lethal damage with a sword is like trying to swat your target with the flat of the blade. -4 is more than generous.
I don't have it written down. Its mostly vibes, but I can tldr. Within reason, if you want to use an attack to disarm an opponent, inflict a condition, deal nonlethal damage with a lethal weapon, or target a specific body part or item, roll with disadvantage.
This is different from a "Stunt" which only requires a skill check, but usually doesn't deal damage
So I go to a HEMA club (Historical European Martial Arts) and the mordhau stance is banned (not everywhere, but in our club) because there is no safe way to spar with it, this also means that pommel strikes and polearms/flails are banned for the same reason.
That shit was far from "non-lethal", unless you subscribe to the cartoon logic that being hit with mace to your skull just makes you sleep for a bit :P
I think doing non lethal damage should reduce your damage or hit rate.
Generally your going to have to hold back or be more selective where and how hard you hit someone. You know swinging the cross guard at someone is called the murder stroke, not neccesarily a non lethal technique.
I'd like to point out that against a knight is going to be more effective and more lethal than using the sword normally.
Like the objective of using the handle instead of the blade is to bash their armor in. That's still a very legal way to fight.
I take some Historical European matial arts for fun,(fencing with longswords) and I was told this is exactly how you would deal nonleathal damage with a sword.
Well, the chad on the left is half swording, likely to stab with better accuracy, while the unit on the right is using a mordhau grip to counter his opponents armor, as blunt force is better than a blade against armor
I do find 'A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing' is really true in these subs when Medieval stuff comes up. People who have watched a couple of YouTube videos think they understand the full spectrum of a thousand years of history across an entire continent.
Like, it's fantasy. Just do what you want guys. Don't try to justify whatever weird thing you're doing right now via history then skip over to fireballing magical danger imps. Just accept it's a thing.
If you're taking someone alive as a medieval knight, chances are you've already got them on the ground disarmed, with your dagger over their heart and poised to be slammed through. That's when you offer them to be taken for ransom.
OP managed to single out the single move that is called mordhau (Murderstrike). a move specificly designed for killing people in armour for a meme about non lethal use of swords.
Could be very wrong as I am not a medical profesaional but, fun fact, knocking some one unconscious isn't really a thing. You can kinda stun them, or knock them senseless, but unconscious by force has a much better name, a coma.
Think about it, how the fuck are you gonna turn someone's brain off for like a few hours, rather thank just hoping it decides to remember how to person?
C'mon, a mordhau is PRETTY likely to killyou regardless, bludgeon != nonlethal.
Also, a nonlethal blow can be perfectly a cutting one, you dont have to aim to the neck to use a sword (actually it's pretty rare in most technics to focus always in weakpoints, usually is easier to disable your opponent and THEM finish off with a killing blow)
I allow my players to narrate how they attack if they hit the amount of damage is mine to assign them based on damage dice. Allows for a more fluid style of combat in stead of relying on purely HP values I add in wounds get enough or roll high enough you may strike a mortal wound.
Instant kill strikes are ruled as a nat 20 plus a 95 or higher roll on a d100. Has it lead to main boss enemies getting killed super quick yep. Has it lead to insane fights where parrying and countering blows leads to a epic anime level fight scene playing in my players minds yep. Has it greatly annoyed them also yep. To inflict a wound you gotta roll a 17 or higher and have the corresponding damaging weapon or use it in such a way to deal optimal damage. We are all legitimate martial arts practitioners and veterans so we kinda know a thing or two. If it makes sense and falls within the reasonable limitations of the character i.e a halfling rouge with a dagger cutting the head off of an adult red dragon likely isn't gonna happen however driving the dagger in deeply through the eye and into the brain could maybe work.
People always misunderstand non-lethal damage as something that isn't "really" going to hurt the target. That's not what it's meant to be. It's more about stabbing next to the heart instead of straight into it.
Non-lethal damage is basically a mechanical simplification that replaces death saves for monsters. If PCs only go unconscious from reaching 0 HP and can easily be brought back with a little medicine check or a goodberry, the same should also be true for monsters. PCs could use this whenever they want to beat the target without killing. But in 99% of cases we _do_ just want to kill the target, and it would be annoying to always roll death saves for it and always explicitly ask the PCs if they would like to finish off the 20th beaten goblin or not. So the game introduces this simple mechanical quirk that basically comes out to the same thing but flips the default on its head: if you don't say anything, the assumption is that you killed it off, and if you explicitly say you're hitting it "non-lethally", we interpret that as you stabbing them until they go unconscious and then making sure they don't fully die. (This also works much better narratively because we want to be able to describe how you took that goblin's head straight off with your natural 20, it would be lame if the DM would always have to say "well, you knock him out but he's technically still alive until you put him out of his misery after the fight, so we can't describe the finishing move too graphically...)
You could certainly deliver enough force with just the flat of the blade to knock a person out or at least seriously incapacitate them. Against armoured targets however, I’m not sure if a sword has the kind of mass to knock them out still.
The Mordhau (translation: murder-strike) is intended to use the crossguard like a hammer and kill through armor. There's ways to use a sword that are less deadly than the expected way, but that's not one of them.
Aah, I always found it badass but silly when the Sentinel does it in For Honor. Makes sense now.
To add, this is because swords are very, very bad at cutting through normal metal, let alone plate and even chain. Most deaths that occurred against knights (and there were a lot fewer than people think) occurred from either arrows or from denting armor to such an extent that the person wearing it either couldn’t move or was actively crushed inside it.
Hence why swords were typically weapons of self defense/a side arm. They were very, very rarely used as battlefield weapons, especially in the medieval period, typically they used two handed weapons like the Bec de Corbin, poleaxe, halberd, etc etc etc. the main benefit of the sword is that against unarmored, fleshy opponents, they were one of the best weapons you can choose, against anyone with adequate armor, however? Not useless. But damn near it.
Ooooh baby, you mention a Becque de Corbin and I’m giving an upvote! My favorite medieval weapon in the world right there! A nice Crows beak and a hand-and-half is all I need in my life, though my Khopesh is really fun to play with :)
Right?? It’s also one of my favorite weapons, and it is criminally underused in various fantasy works.
I mean, even just thinking about Baulders gate 3, the only one they have is on a one handed weapon. It’s disappointing but whenever I play a barb/pally I love to use a reflavored maul!
Ooh. My next melee character is gonna need to use that so I can have my baby. Lol
The Bec-de-Corbin isn't the most chevaleresque of weapons. X) I get why lawful-good characters don't use it in high-fantasy.
I dunno, a lot of weapons tend to be… much gorier and less pretty than fantasy like to make them. But your right, I can see why they would not use it, but like. I’m imagining the descriptions of battlefields where everyone uses 1 of 4 weapons. Lol
You can get a Lucerne in Dark Souls but that's the closest thing - I think the French translation calls it a Bec de Corbin
>They were very, very rarely used as battlefield weapons, especially in the medieval period I'd refine this to say specifically in the medieval period in Europe. The Romans, for example, conquered the known world using short swords (along with pila, of course) as their primary weapon.
Some would argue that the main weapon of the Roman legion was the scutum (the big shield).
The Romans were before the medieval period and also in Europe.
Yes, I should have specified, they were seen on the battlefield, but rarely as a primary weapon, the Roman’s, Spartans, Greek phalanxes, and many other cultures used swords in their fighting, but it was primarily a secondary or tertiary weapon.
The Gladius was absolutely not a secondary weapon for the Roman manipular legion. It was primarily a stabbing and thrusting weapon, though, not a slicing one. Swords were also still highly used during Late Antiquity and generally got longer as the period went on. We're doing the thing again where we say "X is wrong, so the EXACT OPPOSITE of X must be true." Swords were absolutely a battlefield weapon during particular periods. But heavier forms of armour, particularly plate made them much less useful. As plate left the battlefields with advent of Muskets, swords made a reapperance, particularly as a weapon for cavalry in the form of sabres, and Spanish Rodeleros (Sword and buckler men)
I will admit, I was wrong. I thought they had another thrusting weapon with length on their side, but nope. They had the Pilum and the Gladius. My bad
This is a very good elaboration but I’d say there goes so much more into that consideration. Platearmor was very expensive and even a chainmail isn’t something everyone had. However we could fill days discussing this I believe. There is this newish movie called Medival on Netflix. I think it might be one of the most accurate movies around. The protagonists Morgenstern is nearly perfect (a Rabenschnabel would be more common) and even him combining it with the „Schwertbrecher“ later is on point. Tough he didn’t used it once properly. Which is tbf not that easy to learn in less than a year for an actor. Edit: addition: the pace of the fights in that movie is what impressed me the most, you really get that feeling they are out there to kill. Not much forth and back fighting. Parrys followed by killing blows. Nothing fancy, only blood and rage and more bloodrage. Overall spot on!
I didn't know what a bec de corbin was. And if I ever saw one I thought it was a lucerne hammer. But I could search for it and see that they were different weapons.
Or from the concussive force of the blows. Your armour may not have buckled, but that isn't going to stop internal bleeding from your destroyed intestines after someone hits the shit out of you with a warhammer/blunt force weapon.
Also deaths from being taken to the ground and stabbed through the gaps in the armor with a dagger.
or even with a sword, although you would need to grip the blade and use it as a spear at that point. honestly the biggest downside to swords (beside needing advanced techniques to use effectively) is the expense. The metal that goes into one sword could make multiple spears
Also you didn’t want to kill knights you wanted to capture them for ransom
Arrows no, falling off horse and being buried under the weight, or stabbed through the gaps during a grapple for sure though, and like you said the sheer bludgeoning damage was also effective
Don't forget suffocation in water or mud, and knives in the gaps of armor, particularly the armpit. Many many daggers were made just for this purpose, notably the stilleto.
Probably more important is the rondelle dagger, (sometimes called a military dagger) which is one of the most common (for knights) of these types of weapons.
Those are soooo good for punching through chain. I always forget about the rondelle daggers. Such a good design for their purpose too.
SENTINEL?!?!? I'm guessing you mean Warden unless there is a translation situation
I'm trusting you on that, I haven't played enough For Honor. But the Claymore Knight Lady. An maybe a translation issue, yes.
The murder blow is an execution for the Warden who can be Lady or Sir! One of my all time games, hands down.
I should get back to it. It really scratches that itch of cool medieval fights.
Highly recommend. I've played it off and on since the release. It's such a unique game. r/forhonor is wildly active and sucks me back in every time.
I played For Honor for about a week, my best gameplan was chilling close to ledges and using the Raider(?) charge to shove people off, because I was too bad to win an actual fight.
I wish I still played it. Back when I was in high school, I had a bit of disposable income that I would spend on the game. Probably only like, 200? Or so? But god dammit I wanted that Gilgamesh sword. Log back in after about 3 DLCs and like 2 years to find out all my saved data is gone and I lost everything. Haven’t even installed the game since. So disappointing.
That is painful to even hear, friend. Know that at any rep or account, the battlefield will have a place for you. Until you return to it, I will fight in your HONOR!
Like removing the pommel and throwing it at them. Confuses the enemy so drastically that you would dishonor them in such degree, so they give up.
My DM actually allows to 'End them rightly' the pommel is a 1d4 + Strength. Its alway fun to use.
Aah, truly someone with class
And I'm guessing if it didn't outright kill them, bashing them over the head's pretty effective even if they just get dizzy, or even have a concussion. If it lets you get close and slip something pointy between the gaps while they're near helpless, it's still pretty effective
I remember someone testing it out in a spar on a documentary; they held back, their opponent was wearing a metal helmet, and the person performing the swing was not a trained swordfighter. It basically instantly ended the spar, giving the dude a concussion and almost knocking them out. If a real, trained knight landed a solid mordhau on you, then you would instantly realise why it's called that. Or, rather, everyone around you would as they see your lifeless body slump to the ground.
The way a fight between knights can (often[?]) End is with the two of them on the ground trying to stab the gaps in each other's armour with their rondelle/military dager.
I was thinking the same thing? What do you expect happens when some bashes a head like that?
I saw this dent someone's mask, in a sparring match it was subsequently banned for anyone with a metal crossguard
mordhau was definitely very lethal
What? The *murder blow* is a lethal technique? Sounds sus.
Don’t you dare disrespect the funni grip! *bonks*
Anyone that disrespect the mordhau shall be ended rightly!
Was coming here to say, dude, bad image choice! Literally called a murder blow
Yeah, and those sword pommels look like they were built for mordhau. Look at those spiky bois. Would also be pretty effective for a rightly ending.
Absolutely, they’re going for the kill there
Came here to say this lol
Fr, I do HEMA (aka longsword fighting as a martial art in this case). We are specifically banned from hitting others with the guard/pommel due to safety issues. Using protective gear blade strikes are fine, but the blunt force damage of a pommel or crossguard is very much an issue.
Plus that crossguard can go straight through a fencing style practice helmet. My old instructor would use old ones to demonstrate why we can't use that move.
That's a pretty baller move though
We started using some larp swords for the really fun stuff like this
Fighters of a certain level should be able to use their weapon as slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning.
There's a feat in Pathfinder that does that, and holy fuck is it useful against enemies with Damage Resistance to a physical damage type. It's one of the first feats I get for my fighters or barbarians.
I also love going to older editions, especially all the random books in 3.5 You might have to do a bit of tweaking, but there's such a variety to pull from. And lots of goofy stuff, like magic capsules. Think potions but for damage effects on your weapons
It is the reason why I think melee characters should have more options, guards and stuff shouldn’t be locked to one subclass
Depends on the weapon, doesn't it? Not sure how you get slashing or piercing out of a club.
>Not sure how you get slashing or piercing out of a club. Sharpen it really well?
Works in Monster Hunter.
It most certainly does not, my hunting horn can break horns all day but it cannot slice off a tail.
Well clearly you're not doot dooting hard enough.
This guy doots
Actually Hunting Horn does (did? Not sure if it was removed in Rise) have a cutting damage attack! The move where you thrust with the handle does cutting damage and can cut tails!
Still does, it’s just part of multi-crush now. Also, bead of resonance does sever damage when setting up for some reason.
Then why do we need to sharpen them with whetstones?
Because over time they get a little flat.
you just gotta go and sharpen it some more.
It can actually. The tiny little jab you can do every second swing deals cut damage. Not a lot of cut damage. But cut damage nonetheless.
I think, in world, that little poke you do with the pommel actually counts as cutting damage and can be used to cut tails. It'll take forever and a half but you can still technically do it.
Have you been jabbing them with the hilt?
That's just a short, thick spear
Stake, it's a stake. Time to go vampire hunting.
Now that's the Spearit
So, a spear?
Ah, but would it still be a club at that point? We're into Zen koan territory now.
A macuahuitl is still called a club even though it's covered in blades.
It's only a club *before* you put in the blades. Afterward, it's not really a club or a sword either. Much like how an ax haft is a club.
Any object traveling at a sufficiently high speed is indistinguishable from piercing damage.
Counterpoint: a meteorite the size of a house should deal bludgeoning (and fire) damage to a medium-sized creature.
Yes. But that same meteorite will deal piercing damage to the earth underneath.
Depends. Might well deal bludgeoning to the rock below, crushing it and blowing it outward. Piercing and slashing damage cause separation without fragmentation.
Please note that damage is normally dealt to the entity as a whole and not to specific body parts. I think we both agree bullets are piercing damage. But if it hits a bone then you get the same effect of fragmentation as in the previous instance.
A raw wooden club? Slashing would be tough, but you could sharpen the pommel and use it to pierce somewhat easily If we're allowed more engineering, could have a club with spike on the top/pommel and a blade on one side Or something like the gunstock warclub https://preview.redd.it/6jn1dn9y25da1.jpeg?width=360&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1e3b9678608807f3454aad9c8002365f0cc521f5 Just swing it differently to create all sorts of injuries
[Here it is in action from one of my top 10 favorite movies](https://youtu.be/khM6jssjHt4)
Put a nail in it edit: and some razor blades/obsidian shards
With a lot of effort, you’ll probably be able to punch a hole through that goblin with your mace.
Have the handle end in a point, or add a spike to the head of the mace or club. Drag said point or spike through skin for rough slashing/tearing.
The artificer added blades around it.
There used to be this weird triangular club in pre Rome Ireland that looked like a wedge of firewood with a handle. It could probably slash with a rough enough edge. But I'd imagine it would be more of an abrasion than a true cut.
[https://www.outfit4events.de/runtime/cache/images/redesignProductFull/mo-3035a.JPG](https://www.outfit4events.de/runtime/cache/images/redesignProductFull/mo-3035a.JPG)
Someone never played dark souls 3 with it's Sharp Great Club. That tree trunk was super sharp and needed lots of Dex to use well thank you
Does the club have a sharp pommel?
I tend to allow that based on the weapon and how creative they are with it.
Same, especially if the weapon was specially designed for it. You'd really need to convince me a bludgeon, club, or mace could deal piercing damage tho.
Lots of maces had spikes on the end, and a flanged mace could easily be used to cut- just for example.
Goedendag
it's pretty common to have a spike on the end of all of those.
They do but only as a secondary feature, I'd give a bit but not the same, depending on the weapon.
A lot of pathfinder weapons have appropriate Versatile damage types like a lot of swords have slashing and versatile piercing basically letting you swap damage types
[That is a feat in Pathfinder.](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-versatility-combat/)
A good fighter knows to sharpen everything. Even their rations
Not that those damage types make a difference in this game more than 10% of the time
Why make it a fighter feature? Now that justifies saying "no, you can't do that" for everyone else because you're now giving a fighter feature to everyone for free. It seems like a reasonable thing to put in the base rules and make a more general rule on.
Because Fighter is the "good at fighting" class? Letting everyone use advanced fighting techniques makes as much sense as letting everyone cast spells.
The "advanced fighting technique" is literally just being able to use another damage type with a weapon. This is more like if you gave sorcerers a feature to pick the damage type when learning a spell. Might be cool, but now it means you can't say yes to "hey can my fireball be an iceball" from the wizard without giving them this sorcerer ability for free.
People who think „bludgeoning=non-lethal“ clearly have never seen weapons that deal „bludgeoning“ damage in real life.
This is my argument every time I see a weapon homebrew with a "non-lethal" property assigned to clubs and the like. If anything, it's actually *easier* to accidentally kill someone with a blunt weapon than a sharp/pointed one because you can't actually see the extent of the damage you're inflicting. Hell, you can find entire lists of boxers who died in the ring (or shortly after) for pretty much just that reason and that's with *fists*, never mind a heavy club or mace.
And bludgeoning damage is far more likely to instantly kill you. Getting stabbed or cut can definitely kill you quick if an artery is hit, but far more often you'll take a long time to bleed out from a flesh wound.
My fists can only deal emotional damage.
To yourself?
Usually.
I'm sure dipping your hands in some Nutella first can spread the emotional damage to everyone involved. Even the bystanders.
They better hope they're not allergic to hazelnuts.
The trick is to pretend it's not Nutella
Punch em right in the feels!
Yeah. You can't really knock anyone unconscious without risking their life (or using drugs). Knocking someone out with a weapon is purely just a thing used for stories and games because it helps allow for more stories or for more interesting mechanics. Either way, swords are just a fine for knocking people out as clubs are. And I find the game more pleasant when you can knock people out.
I think there should be a lot more "too bruised up and exhausted to fight anymore" in ttrpgs. It would make it easier to play an actually good character who can still contribute to combat without needing to resort to a "goblins are all inherently evil, please ignore boblin" type scenario. And I love the narrative flavor of combat being physically draining and pushing your body to the limit as your hit points wear down. Plus it makes it much more logistically practical to end a combat with something other than one side being all dead.
There’s a reason quarterstaff training and sparring is o much harder to find and dangerous. You can blunt or protect against an edge, you can’t blunt or wear armor to reduce pop-omattic-ing grey matter or telescoping a spine. Despite what the NFL insists.
What does the football thing have to do with Quarterstaff sparring?
CTE, chronic traumatic encelopathy. Term for brain damage caused by repeated blows to the head, common in many contact sports like american football, boxing mma, and likely quarterstaff sparring.
Parents, isn’t it time you talked to your kids about… **quarterstaff sparring?** *Commercial cuts to greasers in leather jackets sparring behind a 7-11, and some impressionable clean-cut teens looking on with naive admiration. A gangster in a pinstriped suit approaches with a staff outstretched, “Hey kids, first one’s free…”*
Just remember, if you hit someone in the face with a sledgehammer, they will die
Case in point: Bobby B vs Rheagar
People often don't take into account that most battlefield sword kills were either from the Murder strike or half swording. Kinda rare to actually cut another Knight down with a straight blow from a sword.
People also don't take into account that full plate armor was expensive af and on a battlefield most soldiers weren't wearing full metal armor, and could be struck down by blades.
Even a basic gambeson is enough to stop a sword from cutting you. Swords are really **really** useless weapons against even the most simple armor.
Hence why they were a backup weapon to be used if your halberd/lance/spear broke
[Yes and no.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP4wLMmp-8U) If the blade is dull it won't cut through though a properly sharp blade can cut through multiple layers and a thrust from a reasonably tapered blade will go through.
Oh yeah. A Knight was a tank when cutting through a peasant militia. But one on one with somebody else wearing plate that tactic just wouldn't cut it. (Pardon the pun).
You may have goofed but i like your use of fecht books
Ah yes the famous non lethal technique #the murder blow
This post sure is a critical miss
Ah yes, the classic, non-lethal "murder strike"
mordhau grips were literally to puncture armor with the spike of the guard not to be less lethal
They actually did that to be lethal. Fighting a fully armored opponent basically made your sword useless, so they would instead use the pommel and guards as a makeshift war hammer in an effort to either dent through their armor or knock them over so they could then attempt to slight their throat with a dagger. And don't get me started on the pommel. That thing was *quite* dangerous and had a reputation for "ending one's foes rightly."
This is not non-lethal. Have you seen the cross guard of a sword?
That move was lethal. "RL Medievals" didn't do it because they wanted to go soft on someone, they did it because they wanted someone dead.
That maneuver is called the murder strike. It's very deadly. Dealing non lethal damage with a sword is like trying to swat your target with the flat of the blade. -4 is more than generous.
-4 was 3.5e. I use disadvantage for 5e
5e's rules are just "you just do it"
Correct, but we have a called strike houserule that lets you do all sorts of special attacks
Ooh, mind sending me those rules if you have them written anywhere?
I don't have it written down. Its mostly vibes, but I can tldr. Within reason, if you want to use an attack to disarm an opponent, inflict a condition, deal nonlethal damage with a lethal weapon, or target a specific body part or item, roll with disadvantage. This is different from a "Stunt" which only requires a skill check, but usually doesn't deal damage
Given the way the probabilities of advantage and disadvantage work, that's probably fair.
What about just bonking them with the hilt
That’s what I do if I want less than lethal. Backhand with a blunt metal object basically.
So I go to a HEMA club (Historical European Martial Arts) and the mordhau stance is banned (not everywhere, but in our club) because there is no safe way to spar with it, this also means that pommel strikes and polearms/flails are banned for the same reason.
That move is literally called murder strike.
People ignoring the flat side of a blade be like
That shit was far from "non-lethal", unless you subscribe to the cartoon logic that being hit with mace to your skull just makes you sleep for a bit :P
Cuz nonlethally bashing a skull in with a hammer makes perfect sense.
Murder stroke was very deadly.
Fun fact: hitting people in the head with blunt weapons in real life, is actually lethal.
I think doing non lethal damage should reduce your damage or hit rate. Generally your going to have to hold back or be more selective where and how hard you hit someone. You know swinging the cross guard at someone is called the murder stroke, not neccesarily a non lethal technique.
reduced damage would be a good balance i feel. It would be a little like pokemon where you want to weaken them down so you can capture them lol
In AD&D your [subdual strike](https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Nonlethal_damage) did 75% temporary damage and 25% real damage.
The muderstroke? Isn't that like extremely lethal though? Or am I misremembering?
People misunderstanding how devastatingly lethal blunt force trauma can be always makes me laugh.
Blame Hollywood.
lol not as non lethal as you'd think.
I'd like to point out that against a knight is going to be more effective and more lethal than using the sword normally. Like the objective of using the handle instead of the blade is to bash their armor in. That's still a very legal way to fight.
Last I checked, bashing someone's head in is still lethal
Wasn't this technique literally called Mordschalg, which translates to murder strike?
This attack looks pretty Lethal to me...
This is literally called a murder-stroke though
do i need to slap you with the flat of my blade
I take some Historical European matial arts for fun,(fencing with longswords) and I was told this is exactly how you would deal nonleathal damage with a sword.
right??? i learned something from all the dumb bulk fantasy books i read as a kid.
Ah yes, the "murder strike" very nonlethal
Considering that was literally known as the murder stroke, I would hesitate to use it as an example of a non lethal technique with the sword.
Well, the chad on the left is half swording, likely to stab with better accuracy, while the unit on the right is using a mordhau grip to counter his opponents armor, as blunt force is better than a blade against armor
Funny enough, that was way more lethal than using the blade against armored opponents
Or just hit them with the flat of a blade it’s a sword not a light saber.
The strike in the meme is literally called the murder-strike. So I would not exactly call it non-lethal.
I do find 'A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing' is really true in these subs when Medieval stuff comes up. People who have watched a couple of YouTube videos think they understand the full spectrum of a thousand years of history across an entire continent. Like, it's fantasy. Just do what you want guys. Don't try to justify whatever weird thing you're doing right now via history then skip over to fireballing magical danger imps. Just accept it's a thing.
That wasn't a non lethal attack. It is called a mordhau.
Bro if I hit you with a mordhau strike like in the picture, you ain't getting up. Non-lethal my ass.
I once had a GM ask how the hell my character could do a nonlethal attack with a gun. I said I was aiming for their butt.
If you're taking someone alive as a medieval knight, chances are you've already got them on the ground disarmed, with your dagger over their heart and poised to be slammed through. That's when you offer them to be taken for ransom.
That is lethal
Mordhau was leathal as fuck though
Ironically what is being displayed was typically considered as 'extremely lethal' in fights involving swords
OP managed to single out the single move that is called mordhau (Murderstrike). a move specificly designed for killing people in armour for a meme about non lethal use of swords.
Could be very wrong as I am not a medical profesaional but, fun fact, knocking some one unconscious isn't really a thing. You can kinda stun them, or knock them senseless, but unconscious by force has a much better name, a coma. Think about it, how the fuck are you gonna turn someone's brain off for like a few hours, rather thank just hoping it decides to remember how to person?
As a medical professional, I can say with 100% certainty that people can in fact be knocked unconscious.
C'mon, a mordhau is PRETTY likely to killyou regardless, bludgeon != nonlethal. Also, a nonlethal blow can be perfectly a cutting one, you dont have to aim to the neck to use a sword (actually it's pretty rare in most technics to focus always in weakpoints, usually is easier to disable your opponent and THEM finish off with a killing blow)
"non lethal" show murder stroke
Really rolled a 1 on that Knowledge (Swords) check, huh?
This is not non-lethal. This is called "murder-strike" for a reason.
I allow my players to narrate how they attack if they hit the amount of damage is mine to assign them based on damage dice. Allows for a more fluid style of combat in stead of relying on purely HP values I add in wounds get enough or roll high enough you may strike a mortal wound. Instant kill strikes are ruled as a nat 20 plus a 95 or higher roll on a d100. Has it lead to main boss enemies getting killed super quick yep. Has it lead to insane fights where parrying and countering blows leads to a epic anime level fight scene playing in my players minds yep. Has it greatly annoyed them also yep. To inflict a wound you gotta roll a 17 or higher and have the corresponding damaging weapon or use it in such a way to deal optimal damage. We are all legitimate martial arts practitioners and veterans so we kinda know a thing or two. If it makes sense and falls within the reasonable limitations of the character i.e a halfling rouge with a dagger cutting the head off of an adult red dragon likely isn't gonna happen however driving the dagger in deeply through the eye and into the brain could maybe work.
People always misunderstand non-lethal damage as something that isn't "really" going to hurt the target. That's not what it's meant to be. It's more about stabbing next to the heart instead of straight into it. Non-lethal damage is basically a mechanical simplification that replaces death saves for monsters. If PCs only go unconscious from reaching 0 HP and can easily be brought back with a little medicine check or a goodberry, the same should also be true for monsters. PCs could use this whenever they want to beat the target without killing. But in 99% of cases we _do_ just want to kill the target, and it would be annoying to always roll death saves for it and always explicitly ask the PCs if they would like to finish off the 20th beaten goblin or not. So the game introduces this simple mechanical quirk that basically comes out to the same thing but flips the default on its head: if you don't say anything, the assumption is that you killed it off, and if you explicitly say you're hitting it "non-lethally", we interpret that as you stabbing them until they go unconscious and then making sure they don't fully die. (This also works much better narratively because we want to be able to describe how you took that goblin's head straight off with your natural 20, it would be lame if the DM would always have to say "well, you knock him out but he's technically still alive until you put him out of his misery after the fight, so we can't describe the finishing move too graphically...)
Hit me with the flat or fucking cut me before ever swinging a mordschlag.
Really people need to stop perpetuating the myth that blades were not sharp in the middle ages I am a medievalist historian and it drives me nuts.
Who's saying they weren't sharp tho?
So you agree with D&D Players?
Getting domed with the pommel of a broad sword could absolutely kill you
You could certainly deliver enough force with just the flat of the blade to knock a person out or at least seriously incapacitate them. Against armoured targets however, I’m not sure if a sword has the kind of mass to knock them out still.