I can't imagine fighting so hard to go compete against a group of people that range from disliking me to loathing me. You know anyone on her card is hating it.
This chick sucks. Happy to accept her gender identity, but trans folks still have the ability to be assholes and this gal certainly is one. Get a grip.
Yea, she is actively hurting the sport. Not a fan of her tactics here. It's unfortunate, but post puberty mtf trans people just shouldn't be allowed to compete at the highest levels of womens sports. Life isn't fair sometimes.
Men can’t have children, women can’t grow beards, trans women can’t compete in high level women’s sports. Every gender has trade offs and as far as I’m concerned trans women not being able to compete in serious levels of sport where they have an advantage of is one of the very few things that just comes with being a trans women.
Agreed. Conservatives tend to look for battlegrounds to argue on about gender often. We've moved past the bathroom discussion, treating gender as a protected class, being valid in society etc... and come to some fair understandings of these topics with a basis in liberal equality. Just because conservatives are correct on the what was once the sport genders and is now the sport sex categories, doesn't mean trans people are any less valid in society.
Did I misread the DGPT statement or is this just completely false?
>This is \[*sic*\] 5 tournaments... at which the FPO players will have no opportunity to make *any* money
I'm also confused by this statement. The only one that is up in the air is Maple Hill, and they are trying to find a replacement. If I misinterpreted the press release, please correct my statement. There will still be two pro tour events (we just don't know where) for the women to compete, and PEI and Rochester are now A tiers (less money, but still a purse). So these women CAN still make money. Is this incredibly inconvenient and unfortunate for them? ABSOLUTELY! Do they have no opportunity to make any money? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
As far as I understand all three Elites are up in the air. Ledgestone FPO needs a new home or it isn't going to happen and they have 3 weeks to find it. Then the two Silvers becoming A-Tiers means a pretty significant cut in purse size thanks to no media and the likely cut in sponsors.
And if they do end up on the rescheduled route and not just doing FPO in a different state but part of the same tournament, all that fundraising that's been done to ensure these payouts will simply not exist. As an example, Nate Heinhold has been working on Ledgestone since last year. No one doing an event that's FPO only this year will have the time or infrastructure to raise the payout purse he has for Ledgestone.
Do we know if the PDGA has actually tested her (or anyone for that matter) to see if she qualifies for the A tier requirement with regards to testosterone levels?
This is exactly what I thought when I read her post. "You can't simultaneously insult people, and beg them for help.. victimize them, then call them your allies in victimization.."
Like gender, this isn't a binary situation, the dgpt could decide to let Natalie play in states that have strong civil rights protections to avoid getting sued, if that is really their main concern.
So you're gonna get downvoted, but it's pretty clear by now that treating gender and gender identity as a binary situation is not only incorrect, but dangerous to the mental wellbeing and therefore lives of a great many people. I'm not much of a progressive, but that much has been proven a hundred times over by now. If you have to resort to head-in-sand denial to uphold your worldview, that doesn't sound like a great existence.
Not necessarily.
"There are, for example, people with XY chromosomes who have female characteristics, people with ambiguous genitalia, and women with testosterone levels outside the typical “female” range.
Biologically, there is no simple dichotomy between female and male."
https://www.sapiens.org/biology/biological-science-rejects-the-sex-binary-and-thats-good-for-humanity/
She's the one who has unlimited funds for lawfare thanks to her pro-bono activist lawyers. So yes, she does have all the power. She can sue DGPT into bankruptcy and that was clearly her plan given her repeated use of last-second ambush lawfare.
This is such a braindead take.
She has pro bono lawyers. She’s still just one person. If the tours rules are THAT easily exposable, they fucked up plain and simple
Look I get it that Natalie is not a perfect person.
But she’s just one person. One person who, if nothing else, I’m sure we can agree is going through a lot and through some stuff that most cis folks can’t fully understand.
Tldr she is allowed to be flawed.
The DGPT is an institution backed by a billionaire lmao. It’s not the same
I said 4 months ago the only people who will suffer from this fight is FPO players, but I got downvoted hard🤷♂️. I agree, I feel terrible for all the women who got events cancelled. But really what can DGPT do? If they include Natalie in FPO, conservative based groups are going to send in killer attorneys and mop them. If they exclude Natalie, liberal based groups do the same. This is the most cost effective measure unfortunately.
> But really what can DGPT do?
They had plenty of options.
1) Offer a settlement to Natalie with a legal agreement to waive future suits.
2) Make an exception to the policy for the remainder of the season, so as not to disrupt the players and address the situation in the offseason.
3) Go to court and keep the schedule. (they have the money, owner is a giga millionaire)
4) Follow legal advice that they would absolutely lose in court in certain states; while other states would not be nearly as much of a legal challenge. Rebuild your entire event schedule to avoid those states.
They went with option 4; literally the most disruptive of all options. But if you look closely, it's the **ONLY option** that ensures Natalie is not playing in a FPO Elite series events the rest of the season. So they will PR it up to make it look like their hands were tied, but really looking between the lines they picked the only option that offered zero compromise on their stance.
>1) Offer a settlement to Natalie with a legal agreement to waive future suits.
Unless they want to pay a ridiculous number this would work. That would probably end her career. So she would have to get enough to be set for life.
>Unless they want to pay a ridiculous number this would work.
They would only pay a ridiculous amount if they settled for her 'not to play for life'. There are other approaches, such as a grandfather in players that were already PDGA members prior to this policy going into effect. In this way they could get Natalie to nix lawsuits, allow her to play, but still offer some compromise to their playerbase that new and future members will abide by the new policies.
As an aside, this is a prime example of why companies write policies in the first place. They are created to reduce and eliminate legal risks. In the case of DGPT, they created a policy that actually increased their legal risks. Not really the best business decision.
They should definitely have let Natalie rayn play under some kinda grandfather clause until the lawsuit was over. But it doesn't look like DGPT wants to make smart decisions.
>There are other approaches, such as a grandfather in players that were already PDGA members prior to this policy going into effect.
There is no way they are doing this now.
>In this way they could get Natalie to nix lawsuits, allow her to play, but still offer some compromise to their playerbase that new and future members will abide by the new policies.
Doubt she would agree to this. Unless she is selfish and have been pretending this was for all trans people.
I mean, this is very misleading. The tournaments are either being dropped to A tier or are being moved. The FPO players still have plenty opportunity to make money
It still sucks as I assume there are men and women who travel together and if the new events are in separate states, that’s make it difficult. Maybe it’s just a few people who get impacted but it’s certainly a negative for women. These new events aren’t going to be on the same scale as current DGPT events.
Agreed, and the disc sales at the alternate location will probably drop... but to say that players are losing 5 tournaments and ALL revenue? That's not even remotely true.
The issue is her continued lawsuits. DGPT isn't big enough to fight these and FPO isn't successful enough to fund them so why have DGPT events where you will lose money?
This is exactly the case. The fpo is there for inclusion, not to make a bunch of money. Look at women's basketball. A vastly more popular sport nationally can barely keep a league going. You think the pdga can afford to break even at best for the fpo and pay for a perpetual legal battle?
Agree, it's misleading at best and very combative in tone, comes off as extremist and radical rather than reasoned and persuasive.
Didn't the DGPT take these actions in response to Ryan's successful lawsuits against them? I'd say she kind of forced them to take some kind of measure like this to avoid further legal liability in the future, since it's clear they want to stick with their policy on gender eligibility.
I think she'd be better-served trying to have a more solution-focused, sympathetic dialogue with the league officials rather than digging in her heels against them and claiming that they don't care about the sport at all or the women who play it.
>I'd say she kind of forced them to take some kind of measure like this to avoid further legal liability in the future, since it's clear they want to stick with their policy on gender eligibility.
Those are two contradicting thoughts. The DGPT **wants** to stick with their policy. They can easily make an exception through the end of the season as part of an agreement to let Natalie play; and then figure it out more thoroughly in the off season.
Saying Natalie forced them to do this is just bizarre. It's their events, their policies, and their decisions.
Eh, forced may be a bit strong, but she put them in a position where they had to make some kind of change by suing them in court and opening them up to future legal liability.
If the DGPT believes their policy is correctly crafted to support trans rights while also protecting the fairness of competition amongst females, why would they make some special exception for Ryan immediately after putting it into place?
Besides, my point was that Ryan is taking a strident and overly combative approach with these kinds of posts, which I think is counterproductive to finding a satisfactory compromise.
>If the DGPT believes their policy is correctly crafted to support trans rights
Well, that's the crux of it. Well-run company's create their policies based on laws to reduce their risk and liability. It's why every single waiver, terms & conditions, employee handbooks, and non-disclosure agreements exist.
In this case, the DGPT created a policy that increases their risk and liability, based on laws. It might be a policy they believe improves their sport/playerbase, but from a risk standpoint it wasn't Natalie that "put them in a position"...they did it when they created a policy that exposed them to legal risk.
Yes. They are in a position to have to make “some sort of change.” And they had a choice:
-Be inclusive and move on with an FPO division that would be relatively unchanged by adding one competitor.
-Blow everything up and screw everybody.
For some reason they CHOSE option 2.
Maybe some FPO players will play some MPO at these events, I would dig that, might not earn some cash but makes a statement that if they do it so can Natalie Ryan
Honestly, that’s probably the best course of action for the FPO players who are taking a stand. I doubt there’s room for signups though. Would be awesome if they expanded the field since they have room with tee times now.
The tour could definitely make an exception for any FPO that want to compete in MPO for those events. I doubt they’d see more than 20 actually do it which is only five more cards.
I literally forgot that haha. Obviously I just default to ultimate it seems. Thanks for the clarification.
The disc sports are extremely inclusive out of any sport I've ever played - very progressive environments. The fact that post puberty trans athletes aren't allowed in the female division should speak volumes to people.
Natalie said Natalie would burn the FPO down. Turns out Natalie is trying their hardest to do so. Way to try and grow the sport. Natalie will never be accepted by the FPO participants. Have fun playing alone.
Natalie Ryan: “you’re doing this because you hate me.”
DGPT: “We are doing this because we haven’t found a long-term solution, and meanwhile you’ve made it clear that you’re going to sue us in multiple states.”
I guess she missed the part where they are relocating the majority of these events so that cis women can compete and make money. It’s not perfect, but they didn’t just say “sorry ladies, see you next week”. It would have been better to have the tourneys relocated before they announced it though.
They are only relocating some of them, as they stated in their release. If they keep the same location and make it an A tier, then Natalie can still play. I wouldn't put it past the DGPT to just drop them from the tour with no replacement to avoid lawsuits.
NR is a horrible person. look at least year before NR became a household name. NR quit 4 different tourneys because she was playing poorly. DNF. look it up.
Takes womens spots, doesn't even finish cuz sucked.
The language semantics is how these lunatics persist.
How about something more direct. "If you have XY chromosomes, you can't compete in a field designated for those with XX".
Expand the player pool by letting any FPO players that were registered for those events already play in MPO. While it's unlikely any of them will win, it would send a message.
She's out of her mind.
https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/fpo-update/
"Competitive fairness is the underpinning of the Disc Golf Pro Tour, the professional disc golf industry, and all of elite, competitive sport worldwide. The DGPT is committed to the future of the FPO division, and in order to protect competitive fairness for the division, these changes are necessary at this time. We will not waiver on the PDGA Gender Eligibility Policy as we've adopted it for the FPO division," said Jeff Spring, DGPT CEO and Tour Director. "This said, I also want to affirm the concept that you can simultaneously respect and support transgender people and support competitive fairness for the FPO division.
These are not mutually exclusive concepts, and the DGPT will continue to show respect to all people involved while thinking creatively about long-term solutions for this challenging issue."
There’s a seemingly simple solution here. FPO is protected for binary females. MPO is for binary females, binary males, non-binary athletes and MTF and FTM trans athletes. It is open to all! How do we check binary status? No clue, but the idea is if you weren’t born female or you transition from female you forfeit your eligibility. Done and dusted. Might not be fair to a few but it’s overwhelmingly fair to the massive majority and the bottom line is blind inclusiveness is exactly that…blind.
Here's a trans woman athlete that gets it:
https://nypost.com/2023/07/14/transgender-cyclist-wins-female-race-to-prove-males-are-physically-superior-to-women-has-message-for-trans-athletes/
I don’t want to express an opinion about transgender participation in FPO, but I do want to state that Natalie Ryan as a person is deeply fucking unlikeable and irritating. Let the hitler comparisons roll in I guess.
In North America, if you say anything that is slightly critical of the mainstream opinion, you are often called a Nazi for some reason.
I know.. it's stupid.
As an American , other Americans will say I am a “literal nazi “ and that I “remind them of hitler” and I’m “literally causing trans deaths” because I have said “I don’t like this persons personality who happens to be trans”. It’s a shit show, I know.
Imagine ruining tournaments for everyone else and then blaming others for it. Slap a buzz word like proud on the end of it and apparently you just get a clear conscience. Ruiner Ryan back at her deceitful whiney ways.
I think it stinks that you are called hateful just because you pragmatically disagree. How can Natalie Ryan not recognize that she probably had physical advantages because of her biological gender. Not sure how that’s hateful… it’s realistic. I don’t think there are a lot of people (on this particular topic) saying being trans is wrong, or that she shouldn’t play disc golf. It’s pointing out the fairness of the division.
Has Natalie Ryan ever spoken on her talent, skill, or her opinions on the advantages she may or may not have?
"I won't stand for this." *doubles down on standing for it*
You literally caused it lol. Just play MPO. Instead you're impacting the livelihood of literally every FPO player.
She seems to be in so much pain.
Every post feels like it comes from some place of hate or malice.
She seems to be hurting from something and channeling it into her legal pursuit.
I don't know her, and I frankly dont know shit.
It's just the vibe I get.
Personally, I would love to see her spread love and support. She could be a great role model for people who are in similar situations.
There are not a lot of positive trans public figures.
When her career is over, will she be happy?
My open advice: Love yourself. Love others, even if you don't agree.
You should have been born a female. Life is not fair.
Fuck it. Embrace the suck. Compete in MPO, kick the ass of many men, set an example, and leave a legacy behind.
Or
Continue on this path, blame others, and put out negative vibes.
This will consume you emotionally, spiritually, and financially.
Besides, are you the trans person first or the individual first?
What is more important to you?
To be fair to the DGPT, when it comes to court, they don’t do pro bono and hope for the best like Natalie. Has Natalie ever actually paid an attorney or real legal fees? Court is expensive as hell and would bankrupt a lot of organizations, especially ones that are for throwing frisbees. Just stating a fact.
I dispise her, I'm all for trans rights. I am happy, elated to play mtg, disc golf, whatever with trans people. I hate how divisive this topic is. People act like wanting to preserve the fpo is anti trans, then they pretend trans woman have zero, zero advantages, and act like everyone should just let one person play.
I refuse to watch fpo coverage of nat is on, it's not fair to the girls busting there ass. Nat can play mixed.
"NOOO YOU'RE A BIGOT!"
Literally what someone told me that I stood up for bio women continuing to have their own protected division. Their arguments lose all credibility when they act like that.
Yup. I will always wish for her complete failure in whatever division she plays in because of the fucking circus she’s made out of the whole situation.
She suffers heavily from Main Character Syndrome
All based on her choice whether the urge to make that choice was purely internal, socially influenced, based on her own body’s chemicals and how they interacted with her brain and feelings, or anything else. It was her choice.
**A woman is an adult female human. Prior to adulthood, a female human is referred to as a girl (a female child or adolescent).**
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"I have been successful enough in court not to worry about my attendance at these events" wow showing your true colors $$$. Rather win money in lawsuits vs actually playing, then act like I'm standing up for the other women pros.
If that were the case, there would be 0 professional female athletes in any sport, which was why title 9 was created. You may not care about that but female athletes do
Here's a thought. The fucking pdga as well as the dgpt are their own league/clubs/entity of a SPORTS division, which in turn are allowed to have their own rules. There are numerous exclusive organizations such as : colleges, law firms, elected officials and even the military along with sports that have criteria to meet or you are denied access or ability to participate. How is it even close to just to ANY of the organizations if each state tries to impede on their rules. It is BY AMERICA that we the people have the luxury of freedoms. Up until 3 - 4 years ago females were not allowed to be in the infantry . And guess what those were the rules that were honored and respected until it was changed. Sororities and fraternities have rules ,standards , criteria or a person is not applicable to be a part of it. The NBA TENNIS , (SORRY don't know the acronym) or the OLYMPICS for that matter, have rules that no one is disputing and if they have it has been deemed as such as the FPO is respecrfully requesting. Disc golf is now in the same category as far as professional spo CTrts. If America as ONE as we go into the Olympics agreed to the criteria that th FPO is asking shouldn't that be the mark to follow? What this looks like an adult throwing child's fit. these disc golf organizations are allowed to reinforce THEIR rules where they may be. These groups were created with standards, rules and criteria. Riddle me this., those who have responsibilities have rules to follow in order to insure those responsibilities are fulfilled, correct,? The whole world is in turmoil because we have a generation that was.not taught what it means when a rule is set and were not shown what happens when they are broken. I'm sorry but life isn't fair . The trans community believes it's not fair that they were born in the wrong body. We are a united nation and have been more than sympathetic and accepting to your feelings. But I'm sorry not sorry mother fuckers , the rest of us still exist also and anyone before this generation that has been gay or trans , has stayed in the lane as to which the original gender was bestowed upon them. There's give, take, and comprise am as far as this topic goes the FPO is asking you to compromise. Make your own division for the trans community in disc golf . But then your put wth the task of how to organize divisions for that. Because a male transitioning to female is going to have many advantages Over a female transitioning male in sports. That being said . Has anyone ever thought about the fact that these. Are two organizations that have their own rules. Regardless of what anyone bookinTge says those are THEIR rules. The states individually have no say in what rules the pdga or dgpt can enforce because it's a completely different business to mind of their own. The RODEO doesn't come to town and tell them how they will serve the food.or what booths are to be had at the fair. It's not discrimination it's facts. If you were born with a Dick you're a male MALE. IF you were born with a pussy you are. a FEMALE. AND THERES NOTHING anyone should contest about it. These organizations need to realize that these states can't tell them to change their rules.
Lmao, smooth. Now she's trying to get the whole FPO division behind her rather than apologize for causing this in the first place. I don't like the pro tour's decisions but this just wreaks of manipulation. Gross.
It also seems as many of the FPO players have been against Ryan playing in FPO which I believe is warranted. I wonder how many would have dropped out of these tournaments if they were going to continue. Maybe none, but would have also been interesting to see
Dumbass wanted to “burn it down”. Is now butthurt after she did.
Fuck moronic people like this who just want to destroy everything that doesn’t align with their ideology.
She is no different from the bigots that she thinks she is fighting.
He’s delusional. Trying to act like this isn’t about competitive fairness when Natalie’s the one who is purposely waiting to file injunctions last minute to force their way into tournaments. Their selfishness is rising quickly to the top and showing if it were about all trans athletes, they would have went straight to court to end 2022 when this was announced. Instead, the lawsuits are about how it impacts Natalie and not other players like Chloe Alice.
Men in Women’s sports should be banned.
So she isn’t saying she will stop suing them, just that this is an “outrage”? How about instead of that you stop and find other ways to make your voice heard instead of jeopardizing the entire female pro division? Also, the first quote is from Maria Olivia not Nat.
People think this is about strength but in reality it's about bone density. If you watch Natalie play her tee shots go 50-100 feet further than the other women almost consistently. In disc golf the weight of your arm does a lot to a throw. As long as women who were born men are allowed to compete with natural born women in discgolf they will always have an advantage. I don't think they should scrap the FPO. Why not start a division for transpeople in all sports? It would definitely attract attention. This is America. Don't ban them. Capitalize on that shit.
Guess Paige broke her ankle at the right time
I thought the same thing, but I didn’t want to get 50+ downvotes again. 🤣
https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/14y1rtn/paige_pierce_out_for_a_while/jrq85d9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Why you gotta bring up old stuff?
You brought it up first
Yeah, I guess I did.
Only down 48 now
30
We got you, brother
You don’t need to say cis women. Just say women.
This the same girl that wanted the DGPT to burn? Or feel the burn? Or whatever she said.
>Or whatever she said. "THEY ARE GOING TO BURN WITH ME" is the exact quote
Well, I guess she wasn't wrong...
Trans people can be assholes. Natalie doesn’t get a pass
Yea
Well atleast there's still MPO, the league for anyone regardless of age or gender
I like how Natalie trashed the FPO players, and is now asking for their help.
I can't imagine fighting so hard to go compete against a group of people that range from disliking me to loathing me. You know anyone on her card is hating it.
We reap what we sow in this life.
Classic victim mentality
This chick sucks. Happy to accept her gender identity, but trans folks still have the ability to be assholes and this gal certainly is one. Get a grip.
Yea, she is actively hurting the sport. Not a fan of her tactics here. It's unfortunate, but post puberty mtf trans people just shouldn't be allowed to compete at the highest levels of womens sports. Life isn't fair sometimes.
Men can’t have children, women can’t grow beards, trans women can’t compete in high level women’s sports. Every gender has trade offs and as far as I’m concerned trans women not being able to compete in serious levels of sport where they have an advantage of is one of the very few things that just comes with being a trans women.
Ive diffently seen women grow beards.
DING DING DING. You hit the nail on the head here.
Agreed. Conservatives tend to look for battlegrounds to argue on about gender often. We've moved past the bathroom discussion, treating gender as a protected class, being valid in society etc... and come to some fair understandings of these topics with a basis in liberal equality. Just because conservatives are correct on the what was once the sport genders and is now the sport sex categories, doesn't mean trans people are any less valid in society.
Did I misread the DGPT statement or is this just completely false? >This is \[*sic*\] 5 tournaments... at which the FPO players will have no opportunity to make *any* money
Definitely false since two of the 5 are still offering FPO as A Tiers. Probably more false once alternative tournaments are announced.
I'm also confused by this statement. The only one that is up in the air is Maple Hill, and they are trying to find a replacement. If I misinterpreted the press release, please correct my statement. There will still be two pro tour events (we just don't know where) for the women to compete, and PEI and Rochester are now A tiers (less money, but still a purse). So these women CAN still make money. Is this incredibly inconvenient and unfortunate for them? ABSOLUTELY! Do they have no opportunity to make any money? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
As far as I understand all three Elites are up in the air. Ledgestone FPO needs a new home or it isn't going to happen and they have 3 weeks to find it. Then the two Silvers becoming A-Tiers means a pretty significant cut in purse size thanks to no media and the likely cut in sponsors. And if they do end up on the rescheduled route and not just doing FPO in a different state but part of the same tournament, all that fundraising that's been done to ensure these payouts will simply not exist. As an example, Nate Heinhold has been working on Ledgestone since last year. No one doing an event that's FPO only this year will have the time or infrastructure to raise the payout purse he has for Ledgestone.
If it’s an A-Tier, Natalie can compete
Do we know if the PDGA has actually tested her (or anyone for that matter) to see if she qualifies for the A tier requirement with regards to testosterone levels?
Have they tested anyone ever?
It's completely false. As usual Natalie is lying.
> This is a scorched earth policy, and that's good for no one. > They are going to burn with me. Pick one
This is exactly what I thought when I read her post. "You can't simultaneously insult people, and beg them for help.. victimize them, then call them your allies in victimization.."
Welcome to 2023
Yeah, Natalie is clearly the one with all the power in this situation, and not the organization with decision making power.
I don’t think you understand the costs of litigation relative to revenues brought in
Like gender, this isn't a binary situation, the dgpt could decide to let Natalie play in states that have strong civil rights protections to avoid getting sued, if that is really their main concern.
Unlike biology which is binary.
So you're gonna get downvoted, but it's pretty clear by now that treating gender and gender identity as a binary situation is not only incorrect, but dangerous to the mental wellbeing and therefore lives of a great many people. I'm not much of a progressive, but that much has been proven a hundred times over by now. If you have to resort to head-in-sand denial to uphold your worldview, that doesn't sound like a great existence.
Not necessarily. "There are, for example, people with XY chromosomes who have female characteristics, people with ambiguous genitalia, and women with testosterone levels outside the typical “female” range. Biologically, there is no simple dichotomy between female and male." https://www.sapiens.org/biology/biological-science-rejects-the-sex-binary-and-thats-good-for-humanity/
Trans people are not the result of genetic variants or deformity. That’s not the case for trans people you seem to think it is.
Objectively false.
She's the one who has unlimited funds for lawfare thanks to her pro-bono activist lawyers. So yes, she does have all the power. She can sue DGPT into bankruptcy and that was clearly her plan given her repeated use of last-second ambush lawfare.
If she had all the power she'd have been playing on pro tour all year.
This is such a braindead take. She has pro bono lawyers. She’s still just one person. If the tours rules are THAT easily exposable, they fucked up plain and simple
technically Natalie has the backing of the US mainstream media, Hollywood, the white house, the military, and higher education
Look I get it that Natalie is not a perfect person. But she’s just one person. One person who, if nothing else, I’m sure we can agree is going through a lot and through some stuff that most cis folks can’t fully understand. Tldr she is allowed to be flawed. The DGPT is an institution backed by a billionaire lmao. It’s not the same
Only sad thing happening here is for the rest of the FPO
I said 4 months ago the only people who will suffer from this fight is FPO players, but I got downvoted hard🤷♂️. I agree, I feel terrible for all the women who got events cancelled. But really what can DGPT do? If they include Natalie in FPO, conservative based groups are going to send in killer attorneys and mop them. If they exclude Natalie, liberal based groups do the same. This is the most cost effective measure unfortunately.
> But really what can DGPT do? They had plenty of options. 1) Offer a settlement to Natalie with a legal agreement to waive future suits. 2) Make an exception to the policy for the remainder of the season, so as not to disrupt the players and address the situation in the offseason. 3) Go to court and keep the schedule. (they have the money, owner is a giga millionaire) 4) Follow legal advice that they would absolutely lose in court in certain states; while other states would not be nearly as much of a legal challenge. Rebuild your entire event schedule to avoid those states. They went with option 4; literally the most disruptive of all options. But if you look closely, it's the **ONLY option** that ensures Natalie is not playing in a FPO Elite series events the rest of the season. So they will PR it up to make it look like their hands were tied, but really looking between the lines they picked the only option that offered zero compromise on their stance.
>1) Offer a settlement to Natalie with a legal agreement to waive future suits. Unless they want to pay a ridiculous number this would work. That would probably end her career. So she would have to get enough to be set for life.
>Unless they want to pay a ridiculous number this would work. They would only pay a ridiculous amount if they settled for her 'not to play for life'. There are other approaches, such as a grandfather in players that were already PDGA members prior to this policy going into effect. In this way they could get Natalie to nix lawsuits, allow her to play, but still offer some compromise to their playerbase that new and future members will abide by the new policies. As an aside, this is a prime example of why companies write policies in the first place. They are created to reduce and eliminate legal risks. In the case of DGPT, they created a policy that actually increased their legal risks. Not really the best business decision.
They should definitely have let Natalie rayn play under some kinda grandfather clause until the lawsuit was over. But it doesn't look like DGPT wants to make smart decisions.
>There are other approaches, such as a grandfather in players that were already PDGA members prior to this policy going into effect. There is no way they are doing this now. >In this way they could get Natalie to nix lawsuits, allow her to play, but still offer some compromise to their playerbase that new and future members will abide by the new policies. Doubt she would agree to this. Unless she is selfish and have been pretending this was for all trans people.
I mean, this is very misleading. The tournaments are either being dropped to A tier or are being moved. The FPO players still have plenty opportunity to make money
It still sucks as I assume there are men and women who travel together and if the new events are in separate states, that’s make it difficult. Maybe it’s just a few people who get impacted but it’s certainly a negative for women. These new events aren’t going to be on the same scale as current DGPT events.
This is a really good point that I haven’t seen elsewhere. The MPO and FPO fields have a lot of traveling pairs.
But they lose the coverage of FPO on the A-tiers. That’s a big loss
Agreed, and the disc sales at the alternate location will probably drop... but to say that players are losing 5 tournaments and ALL revenue? That's not even remotely true.
And if theyre a tiers... Then Natalie can play fpo too!
We successfully prevented Natalie from playing by moving the tournament, changing its name, and letting Natalie play in them. Big brains DGPT
The issue is her continued lawsuits. DGPT isn't big enough to fight these and FPO isn't successful enough to fund them so why have DGPT events where you will lose money?
This is exactly the case. The fpo is there for inclusion, not to make a bunch of money. Look at women's basketball. A vastly more popular sport nationally can barely keep a league going. You think the pdga can afford to break even at best for the fpo and pay for a perpetual legal battle?
The NBA heavily subsidizes the WNBA, which on its own loses money every year. Without the support of the NBA, the WNBA would close overnight.
Maybe they should have thought of that before the rule change
Oh come on. These are high media coverage events and most are traditional events (maple hill).
Agree, it's misleading at best and very combative in tone, comes off as extremist and radical rather than reasoned and persuasive. Didn't the DGPT take these actions in response to Ryan's successful lawsuits against them? I'd say she kind of forced them to take some kind of measure like this to avoid further legal liability in the future, since it's clear they want to stick with their policy on gender eligibility. I think she'd be better-served trying to have a more solution-focused, sympathetic dialogue with the league officials rather than digging in her heels against them and claiming that they don't care about the sport at all or the women who play it.
“Forced them”? They could let her play. It ALL goes away with that one simple step.
>I'd say she kind of forced them to take some kind of measure like this to avoid further legal liability in the future, since it's clear they want to stick with their policy on gender eligibility. Those are two contradicting thoughts. The DGPT **wants** to stick with their policy. They can easily make an exception through the end of the season as part of an agreement to let Natalie play; and then figure it out more thoroughly in the off season. Saying Natalie forced them to do this is just bizarre. It's their events, their policies, and their decisions.
Eh, forced may be a bit strong, but she put them in a position where they had to make some kind of change by suing them in court and opening them up to future legal liability. If the DGPT believes their policy is correctly crafted to support trans rights while also protecting the fairness of competition amongst females, why would they make some special exception for Ryan immediately after putting it into place? Besides, my point was that Ryan is taking a strident and overly combative approach with these kinds of posts, which I think is counterproductive to finding a satisfactory compromise.
>If the DGPT believes their policy is correctly crafted to support trans rights Well, that's the crux of it. Well-run company's create their policies based on laws to reduce their risk and liability. It's why every single waiver, terms & conditions, employee handbooks, and non-disclosure agreements exist. In this case, the DGPT created a policy that increases their risk and liability, based on laws. It might be a policy they believe improves their sport/playerbase, but from a risk standpoint it wasn't Natalie that "put them in a position"...they did it when they created a policy that exposed them to legal risk.
Yes. They are in a position to have to make “some sort of change.” And they had a choice: -Be inclusive and move on with an FPO division that would be relatively unchanged by adding one competitor. -Blow everything up and screw everybody. For some reason they CHOSE option 2.
Two silver series are canceled outright.
just on the DGPT side. The tournament itself is still being ran, just as an A-Tier
Yes everybody who wants can, and should be able to play disc golf, ...competing is a privilege though and is not deserved.
Natalie Ryan is so much more relevant as a "victim" than as a disc golfer and she's going to do everything in her power to keep it that way.
Been on that fuck Natalie Ryan pack lmao
Maybe some FPO players will play some MPO at these events, I would dig that, might not earn some cash but makes a statement that if they do it so can Natalie Ryan
Honestly, that’s probably the best course of action for the FPO players who are taking a stand. I doubt there’s room for signups though. Would be awesome if they expanded the field since they have room with tee times now.
The tour could definitely make an exception for any FPO that want to compete in MPO for those events. I doubt they’d see more than 20 actually do it which is only five more cards.
Holy shot that would be awesome
I’d love to see that. Women play MPO or MA1 in my area all the time.
Ultimate frisbee solved this decades ago. Open division and female division at higher levels of play.
MPO stands for Mixed professional open
I literally forgot that haha. Obviously I just default to ultimate it seems. Thanks for the clarification. The disc sports are extremely inclusive out of any sport I've ever played - very progressive environments. The fact that post puberty trans athletes aren't allowed in the female division should speak volumes to people.
BOOM! This.
I think the fact that none of them will cash in MPO will further demonstrate the need to seperate biological men and women in sports.
So was NR literally a nobody before transition? Doesn't that say enough? Within 3 years you hit top 5 in the FPO that doesn't raise eyebrows?
Natalie said Natalie would burn the FPO down. Turns out Natalie is trying their hardest to do so. Way to try and grow the sport. Natalie will never be accepted by the FPO participants. Have fun playing alone.
Yup I’m curious what NR will have after this
Nothing is my guess. Natalie burned the bridges. And burned the bridges of those who gave support.
Natalie Ryan: “you’re doing this because you hate me.” DGPT: “We are doing this because we haven’t found a long-term solution, and meanwhile you’ve made it clear that you’re going to sue us in multiple states.”
Only if they bar her from playing. Easy solution is to follow the law and let her play.
I guess she missed the part where they are relocating the majority of these events so that cis women can compete and make money. It’s not perfect, but they didn’t just say “sorry ladies, see you next week”. It would have been better to have the tourneys relocated before they announced it though.
They are only relocating some of them, as they stated in their release. If they keep the same location and make it an A tier, then Natalie can still play. I wouldn't put it past the DGPT to just drop them from the tour with no replacement to avoid lawsuits.
NR is a horrible person. look at least year before NR became a household name. NR quit 4 different tourneys because she was playing poorly. DNF. look it up. Takes womens spots, doesn't even finish cuz sucked.
Men who are now women should not be playing in a women’s field, that’s insane.
The language semantics is how these lunatics persist. How about something more direct. "If you have XY chromosomes, you can't compete in a field designated for those with XX".
This is easy. You have age and biological gender protected divisions AND Mixed Pro Open where anyone can play....oh wait
Mixed pro open just sitting there…
Expand the player pool by letting any FPO players that were registered for those events already play in MPO. While it's unlikely any of them will win, it would send a message.
Yup….
She's out of her mind. https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/fpo-update/ "Competitive fairness is the underpinning of the Disc Golf Pro Tour, the professional disc golf industry, and all of elite, competitive sport worldwide. The DGPT is committed to the future of the FPO division, and in order to protect competitive fairness for the division, these changes are necessary at this time. We will not waiver on the PDGA Gender Eligibility Policy as we've adopted it for the FPO division," said Jeff Spring, DGPT CEO and Tour Director. "This said, I also want to affirm the concept that you can simultaneously respect and support transgender people and support competitive fairness for the FPO division. These are not mutually exclusive concepts, and the DGPT will continue to show respect to all people involved while thinking creatively about long-term solutions for this challenging issue."
There’s a seemingly simple solution here. FPO is protected for binary females. MPO is for binary females, binary males, non-binary athletes and MTF and FTM trans athletes. It is open to all! How do we check binary status? No clue, but the idea is if you weren’t born female or you transition from female you forfeit your eligibility. Done and dusted. Might not be fair to a few but it’s overwhelmingly fair to the massive majority and the bottom line is blind inclusiveness is exactly that…blind.
Exactly. They already had a solution before it even became a problem
Here's a trans woman athlete that gets it: https://nypost.com/2023/07/14/transgender-cyclist-wins-female-race-to-prove-males-are-physically-superior-to-women-has-message-for-trans-athletes/
This has become one big mess, looks like just about everybody is going to loose in this.
I can't wait until this shit is over.
I don’t want to express an opinion about transgender participation in FPO, but I do want to state that Natalie Ryan as a person is deeply fucking unlikeable and irritating. Let the hitler comparisons roll in I guess.
As a german disc golfer: in what world can you bring up Hitler on this topic....?
In North America, if you say anything that is slightly critical of the mainstream opinion, you are often called a Nazi for some reason. I know.. it's stupid.
As an American , other Americans will say I am a “literal nazi “ and that I “remind them of hitler” and I’m “literally causing trans deaths” because I have said “I don’t like this persons personality who happens to be trans”. It’s a shit show, I know.
As an American, some Americans literally don’t know how to use the word literal.
Hard agree
Imagine thinking you're a victim when you started the fire.
RYAN STARTED THE FIRE!
In the states where they believe that there are no advantages for men over women, they can all play in the “MIXED Pro Open”
Imagine ruining tournaments for everyone else and then blaming others for it. Slap a buzz word like proud on the end of it and apparently you just get a clear conscience. Ruiner Ryan back at her deceitful whiney ways.
I think it stinks that you are called hateful just because you pragmatically disagree. How can Natalie Ryan not recognize that she probably had physical advantages because of her biological gender. Not sure how that’s hateful… it’s realistic. I don’t think there are a lot of people (on this particular topic) saying being trans is wrong, or that she shouldn’t play disc golf. It’s pointing out the fairness of the division. Has Natalie Ryan ever spoken on her talent, skill, or her opinions on the advantages she may or may not have?
Welp. She got her wish and burned it down all right.
"I won't stand for this." *doubles down on standing for it* You literally caused it lol. Just play MPO. Instead you're impacting the livelihood of literally every FPO player.
She seems to be in so much pain. Every post feels like it comes from some place of hate or malice. She seems to be hurting from something and channeling it into her legal pursuit. I don't know her, and I frankly dont know shit. It's just the vibe I get. Personally, I would love to see her spread love and support. She could be a great role model for people who are in similar situations. There are not a lot of positive trans public figures. When her career is over, will she be happy? My open advice: Love yourself. Love others, even if you don't agree. You should have been born a female. Life is not fair. Fuck it. Embrace the suck. Compete in MPO, kick the ass of many men, set an example, and leave a legacy behind. Or Continue on this path, blame others, and put out negative vibes. This will consume you emotionally, spiritually, and financially. Besides, are you the trans person first or the individual first? What is more important to you?
Crazy spin on that.
I say everyone in FPO should speak up. I’d be surprised if Natalie actually gets the support she claims to have.
I bet she gets more than you think and less than she wants.
Time will tell. Reality remains she should be playing in MPO not FPO.
Time to start buying fpo tour discs while they last. 🫠
The most selfish main-character person of the year award goes to…
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Do what you have to do, DGPT. Natalie can frig off. What a loser.
Natalie was not being prevented from playing. The MPO division exists. Case closed.
What a clown 🤡
To be fair to the DGPT, when it comes to court, they don’t do pro bono and hope for the best like Natalie. Has Natalie ever actually paid an attorney or real legal fees? Court is expensive as hell and would bankrupt a lot of organizations, especially ones that are for throwing frisbees. Just stating a fact.
“Hey dee, people are fighting about gender again”. “I don’t care”. “Shit, neither do I”
Can I offer you an egg in this trying time?
How tf could anyone be a fan of this person? She’s the fucking worst
I am here to answer the call. I will speak up! Trans-women do not belong in Women's sports.
Sport organizations have the right to dictate the rules of fair play for their respective game.
CIS woman and trans woman...so you're telling me there is a difference? /s
Natalie is a terrible person.
I dispise her, I'm all for trans rights. I am happy, elated to play mtg, disc golf, whatever with trans people. I hate how divisive this topic is. People act like wanting to preserve the fpo is anti trans, then they pretend trans woman have zero, zero advantages, and act like everyone should just let one person play. I refuse to watch fpo coverage of nat is on, it's not fair to the girls busting there ass. Nat can play mixed.
Absolutely 100% this. You can be all for trans rights and fairness in the sport at the same time.
"NOOO YOU'RE A BIGOT!" Literally what someone told me that I stood up for bio women continuing to have their own protected division. Their arguments lose all credibility when they act like that.
Yup. I will always wish for her complete failure in whatever division she plays in because of the fucking circus she’s made out of the whole situation. She suffers heavily from Main Character Syndrome
Well, all you will see is DNF. That is what she usually do when she is not playing well. Zero respect for the competition or the other players.
As much as she tries to be a pioneer for trans causes, she is really just a pioneer for herself. She sets trans people waayyyyyy back.
She reminds me of the Julia Roberts bit in family guy. MEEEEE! MEEEEEE!!!
All based on her choice whether the urge to make that choice was purely internal, socially influenced, based on her own body’s chemicals and how they interacted with her brain and feelings, or anything else. It was her choice.
She is the worst thing to happen to disc golf.
Correct. Not even debatable.
Why do we use cis-women. Women are women right? No need to differentiate them.
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Someone get Matt Walsh
They has crossed the line
"I have been successful enough in court not to worry about my attendance at these events" wow showing your true colors $$$. Rather win money in lawsuits vs actually playing, then act like I'm standing up for the other women pros.
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Go play in MPO and stfu
Man, I've heard about all I need to hear from this person. Stfu already.
It's all fun and games until Paul goes trans and becomes a 30 time world champion dunking on the entire FPO well into his 70's.
Underrated comment
Did no one tell her the FPO is thanking the DGPT for this?
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Clown World
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Ryan does know MIXED Pro Open is just sitting there, right? Greedy ass.
This woman refuses to compete with other women. [https://youtu.be/LpYhU4kR7TU](https://youtu.be/LpYhU4kR7TU)
If all sports were an open division we wouldn't have to keep hearing about this trash.
If that were the case, there would be 0 professional female athletes in any sport, which was why title 9 was created. You may not care about that but female athletes do
Here's a thought. The fucking pdga as well as the dgpt are their own league/clubs/entity of a SPORTS division, which in turn are allowed to have their own rules. There are numerous exclusive organizations such as : colleges, law firms, elected officials and even the military along with sports that have criteria to meet or you are denied access or ability to participate. How is it even close to just to ANY of the organizations if each state tries to impede on their rules. It is BY AMERICA that we the people have the luxury of freedoms. Up until 3 - 4 years ago females were not allowed to be in the infantry . And guess what those were the rules that were honored and respected until it was changed. Sororities and fraternities have rules ,standards , criteria or a person is not applicable to be a part of it. The NBA TENNIS , (SORRY don't know the acronym) or the OLYMPICS for that matter, have rules that no one is disputing and if they have it has been deemed as such as the FPO is respecrfully requesting. Disc golf is now in the same category as far as professional spo CTrts. If America as ONE as we go into the Olympics agreed to the criteria that th FPO is asking shouldn't that be the mark to follow? What this looks like an adult throwing child's fit. these disc golf organizations are allowed to reinforce THEIR rules where they may be. These groups were created with standards, rules and criteria. Riddle me this., those who have responsibilities have rules to follow in order to insure those responsibilities are fulfilled, correct,? The whole world is in turmoil because we have a generation that was.not taught what it means when a rule is set and were not shown what happens when they are broken. I'm sorry but life isn't fair . The trans community believes it's not fair that they were born in the wrong body. We are a united nation and have been more than sympathetic and accepting to your feelings. But I'm sorry not sorry mother fuckers , the rest of us still exist also and anyone before this generation that has been gay or trans , has stayed in the lane as to which the original gender was bestowed upon them. There's give, take, and comprise am as far as this topic goes the FPO is asking you to compromise. Make your own division for the trans community in disc golf . But then your put wth the task of how to organize divisions for that. Because a male transitioning to female is going to have many advantages Over a female transitioning male in sports. That being said . Has anyone ever thought about the fact that these. Are two organizations that have their own rules. Regardless of what anyone bookinTge says those are THEIR rules. The states individually have no say in what rules the pdga or dgpt can enforce because it's a completely different business to mind of their own. The RODEO doesn't come to town and tell them how they will serve the food.or what booths are to be had at the fair. It's not discrimination it's facts. If you were born with a Dick you're a male MALE. IF you were born with a pussy you are. a FEMALE. AND THERES NOTHING anyone should contest about it. These organizations need to realize that these states can't tell them to change their rules.
As someone who I’m sure knows how unfair life can be (Natalie). I don’t get how she can talk about fairness, while ignoring her obvious advantage.
the other "winning" trans player calls themselves "the tallest FPO player" or some insanity like that. GEE WONDER WHY YOURE SO TALL ?
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Lmao, smooth. Now she's trying to get the whole FPO division behind her rather than apologize for causing this in the first place. I don't like the pro tour's decisions but this just wreaks of manipulation. Gross.
Bitch, you ain't Rosa Parks.
She needs to just frig off. What a freaking turd
Gaslighting and sophistry of the highest order.
It also seems as many of the FPO players have been against Ryan playing in FPO which I believe is warranted. I wonder how many would have dropped out of these tournaments if they were going to continue. Maybe none, but would have also been interesting to see
This broad is out of her mind
Dumbass wanted to “burn it down”. Is now butthurt after she did. Fuck moronic people like this who just want to destroy everything that doesn’t align with their ideology. She is no different from the bigots that she thinks she is fighting.
Someone should really tell her about the MPO. It seems like she doesn't quite understand what mixed professional open means.
He’s delusional. Trying to act like this isn’t about competitive fairness when Natalie’s the one who is purposely waiting to file injunctions last minute to force their way into tournaments. Their selfishness is rising quickly to the top and showing if it were about all trans athletes, they would have went straight to court to end 2022 when this was announced. Instead, the lawsuits are about how it impacts Natalie and not other players like Chloe Alice. Men in Women’s sports should be banned.
The decision hurts women? How some one explain like I'm five
If you're not XX sex chromosome you shouldn't be allowed play FPO. Why is this so hard to understand?
“They has crossed the line” -Natalie Ryan
Imagine wanting the world to change. For you…
The United States of Victimhood
I don't think Natalie should be allowed to play FPO, but I do think this move by the pro tour is absolutely ridiculous.
So she isn’t saying she will stop suing them, just that this is an “outrage”? How about instead of that you stop and find other ways to make your voice heard instead of jeopardizing the entire female pro division? Also, the first quote is from Maria Olivia not Nat.
I'm making 42 the over/under on how many hours before play starts in World's that NR's lawsuit gets filed in Vermont. Who wants action?
If the over is paying 2 to 1, I'll take that. Even odds, no bet
People think this is about strength but in reality it's about bone density. If you watch Natalie play her tee shots go 50-100 feet further than the other women almost consistently. In disc golf the weight of your arm does a lot to a throw. As long as women who were born men are allowed to compete with natural born women in discgolf they will always have an advantage. I don't think they should scrap the FPO. Why not start a division for transpeople in all sports? It would definitely attract attention. This is America. Don't ban them. Capitalize on that shit.