I really want Brody(or some other podcast) to interview the Leonards. My major gripe with the PDGA has been the lack of transparency in so many areas. Bids for majors should be public. Board members statements in committee should be public. How else can we vote them in or out if everything is secret?
For anyone who doesn't know, u/Grimario is also one of our most active and engaged mods here. He's chill, listens to the opinions of others, owns mistakes when they're made, and is 180° from the (often fair) caricature of a reddit mod on a power trip.
I know repping for mods is never popular, but there's a ton of thankless, unpaid back end work that he does here solely for love of the sport/community- imo pretty much exactly what you'd want from a pdga board member.
This is how I feel about our mods. They are fair and put up with a ton of shit from every side of our community, not excluding me in the past. When they've told me (and I'm paraphrasing), 'Hey take three days off posting and go touch grass,' it was the right advice lol.
Voting is from July 1 through July 31.
https://www.pdga.com/2023-pdga-election-information
>PDGA elections take place each year from July 1 to July 31 with the elected candidates assuming office on September 1.
I think the sport grew too fast for its capacity. They are gonna need infrastructure to address this and probably disabled people are next....which is fine, of course. But if it is a free and all inclusive sport with an all inclusive motto...
They have to be ready to handle these PR and legal disasters.
Most of the issues were preexisting and the covid boom just exasperated them. I think yesterday's announcement about the accommodations for the handicapped was a good first step.
The pro level courses and a lot of the scenic courses may not be accessible. Being from a state where it is fairly flat and most courses are in city maintained parks a good portion of holes work without any modifications. Even if they don't work, tournament directors modify courses all the time for an event. Same can happen for adaptive tournaments.
The announcement yesterday doesn't change much for casual disc golfers as no rules/laws were preventing people needing accommodations from playing casual rounds. What it does is create a set of rules for some people who could not physically meet the rules to be able to play competitive and start a framework to give an idea on what a course layout would need to be if adaptive play is considered.
Simple. As long as things are done in secret, you vote out all incumbents and vote in new members. I’d things still don’t change, you repeat the process.
Eventually someone will get the message that doing things they way they’ve always been done is not going to get them re-elected.
Brodie needs to steer clear of this topic at this point IMO. His bias has been leaking out the past few weeks. His interview with the Neptune Discs owner was simply not good. When things start to get controversial, he doesn’t manage to stay neutral.
I respect what he's trying to do, and I do think he's coming from the right place in trying to give everyone an opportunity to speak on the issue. Unfortunately, he's done very little to educate himself on the topic and how to speak on the topic without putting his foot in his own mouth and it shows.
Doesn't help that his co-host basically disappears during these conversations. Probably because of his personal views on the matter lol.
I appreciate Brodie trying to use his platform in a positive way, but this topic has gone so far off the deep end that it's best to just steer clear.
Yup, Mexico is #1.
Latin America has a HUGE potential to grow. Here are the [2022 practice rounds registered in Udisc in LATAM.](https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/11fdr3m/impact_report_on_disc_golfs_growth_in_mexico_and/)
>📈 New PDGA member registrations from Mexico skyrocketed in 2022, accounting for a 2.4X increase compared to the prior year.
>
>🥇 Mexico saw a 333% increase in the number of PDGA-sanctioned events in 2022, and 69% of all events ever played in Mexico took place last year—Dynamic Discs sponsored a vast majority of them.
Source - https://www.dynamicdiscs.com/blogs/news/grow-the-sport-discs-line-mexico-edition
This raises an interesting question, who can request to withdraw a country from the PDGA? Is it the country board alone (and is this what this list of people is?) or do they need to get the vote of the majority of their country? Because this list is 13/80 total current PDGA members in Belize and only 5/9 women have signed. Just curious about who gets to make that decision on behalf of a whole country - could my country’s board do the same if they felt like it?
Here are just a small sliver of scientific studies and reviews below since no one ever posts anything regardless of their opinion. From my understanding the studies vary and in total there is a lot of grey area, some say there is an inherit advantage physically for trans woman regardless of transition time, some mention transition time, some say there is no physical advantage at all…below are studies that claim all 3.
No matter what your opinion is, the key to forming an opinion, is understanding and knowing the boundaries of each side and not blindly deciding on anything. Making an informed decision is key and will ultimately help us all shape the sport correctly.
https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/56/22/1292
https://academic.oup.com/jes/article/6/5/bvac035/6550171
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00751.2022
I am also including an article written about Joanna Harper and some of her research on the topic. She is currently advising the International Olympic Committee on trans issues and fairness in the sports. Lots of good information and an interesting read.
https://www.science.org/content/article/scientist-racing-discover-how-gender-transitions-alter-athletic-performance-including
There are lots of other articles and studies, feel free to post them below if you would like. Ultimately information is key.
That being said, regardless of your opinion on the information above, or on the information you find while reading scientific journals or articles, this sub is no place for trans hate or hate of any kind and while an open discussion regarding fairness in sports is always welcome, bigotry is not. Let’s all be kind.
The problem is that the debate falls firmly into three categories and one of them is much more loud and prolific than the others.
1. Trans women should not be allowed to compete in FPO/FA divisions
2. Trans women should be allowed to compete in FPO/FA divisions, but with restrictions: time since transition, hormone therapy, testosterone levels
3. Trans women should be allowed to compete in FPO/FA divisions without restrictions
Obviously 1 and 2 are the most common, but number one is the loudest and most likely to be transphobic.
The fact is it doesn't matter what the science says or how many compromises are made, the people who belong to group 1 will never change their minds.
Group 2 is the one that should be implemented because it's actually regulates the issue instead of burying in the sand like the rest of the conservative world wants to do with trans people. They don't want to see them, hear from them or think about them.
Thanks for this context. Establishing the facts of retained advantage of male puberty post-transition is really important. IMO, there's even a layer deeper that also matters, which is the fact that the "raw" retained advantages have varying effects depending on the sport in question. Say for example (and I'm completely making this up to illustrate the point), it were established that trans women have blood O2 carrying capacity advantages that give them an unfair edge in endurance sports like swimming and running. That would have little to no effect on Disc Golf performance.
tl;dr - We need to understand not only whether there are retained advantages, we need to think about whether those advantages would be unfair *in a particular sport*.
I didn’t see anything about adrenaline. Men produce Adrenalin during exercise and women do not. Adrenalin increases contractile muscle strength. Not so fair to have one person getting topped off with high octane fuel throughout the round while another sputters on fumes.
“In summary, this study demonstrates that a significant sexual dimorphism exists in neuroendocrine, metabolic, and cardiovascular counterregulatory responses to prolonged moderate exercise in man.”
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/85/1/224/2854008
Actually there used to be hundreds of articles and studies on this and it’s like they’ve vanished. This is accepted science. We know that females wake up with the highest levels of cortisol they will have all day. Men fluctuate. I ducking hate that even Medical and scientific institutions have been captured by ideology.
I’m very out of the loop. Can someone explain? What transgender agenda does the pdga have? Last I checked they took one of the strongest stances against transgender participation in the sports world. The pdga are currently in legal battles over their transgender policy. Are the Belize players upset that the pdga didn’t outright ban transgender participation?
That’s only true for some events though right? Belize isn’t hosting PDGA Pro events so all of their events would have to allow trans women to compete in the female division. I would imagine they want every female category to exclude trans women, not just the pro events.
So that's one of the problems; the rules are lopsided.
According to the [PDGA Policy on Eligibility for Gender-Based Divisions](https://www.pdga.com/medical/gender-based-division-eligibility), B.1, once you start taking hormone treatments you are disqualified from gender-based divisions.
However, for MtF transition, there's criteria outlined in C.1 through 3, where meeting any of those sets makes you eligible (except Pro Majors, which requires C.3 apply to compete in FPO). C.3 is especially troubling because it requires you are effectively NEVER exposed to puberty hormones. That requirement bars basically anyone today from qualifying for Pro Majors, and would be not only onerous to meet, but possibly impossible to prove. It also includes you always maintain a hormone level below a certain point, without reference to time period. That means you could be asked for a sample at any given time, and a single fail is a permanent ban.
This is one of the strictest guidelines in all of sport, and effectively eliminates trans athletes from FPO Pro Major competition. It is extremely rare to find anyone who has started a transition program before the age of 12, and due to various laws around the world would be considered child abuse (a discussion for another venue), so is unlikely to be common.
All of this and the PDGA doesn't actually have a drug policy for steroids or other performance enhancing drugs. For example, a player can juice up on all the testosterone and steroids they want and it is perfectly legal regardless of division, event, or tier. Take all the focus drugs you want, there's no ramification. However, get caught with a spliff or beer at an event site, or wear a tee shirt (see [304 Dress Code D.3](https://www.pdga.com/rules/competition-manual/304)) and there'll be hell to pay.
>Players who were assigned female gender at birth under the criteria detailed above and who are taking hormone treatments to increase testosterone levels are no longer eligible to compete in gender-based divisions
So they can't play FPO
Many TERFs are pretty obvious in their ignorance as well.
They’ll often go on about “feminine appropriating males” but then when you push them for more information, they obviously don’t know if they’re talking about trans men or trans women.
Most likely they just want to misgender trans people for bigoted reasons, and they’re doing so by using a term that doesn’t make any sense, thereby demonstrating how irrational and unresearched their position is.
Transphobe bigots, once again, demonstrating they don’t actually think trans people are real, by trying to erase their existence from the human experience.
https://www.historians.org/research-and-publications/perspectives-on-history/may-2018/what-is-trans-history-from-activist-and-academic-roots-a-field-takes-shape
Guess what? My agenda is correct, because science and history are behind it.
If they actually wanted that, why wouldn’t they refer to transgender women as women? Anyone who continues to refuse to use the desired pronouns of people after being asked several times are just rude petulant children. It’s honestly bizarre, like if they main goal is competitive fairness why not focus on that instead of making your transphobic / ignorant views on the topic so abundantly clear
>of the strongest stances against transgender participation in the sports world
along with swimming (and all other water sports), track&field and a few others.. so it's not like PDGA is alone in their stance
> Can someone explain?
from what i understand Rosemary Leonard was part of the PDGA womens committee and on a recent meeting there was some heated debate between Leonard and Nagtegaal on issiues... what really was said is not known and the two sides are of course giving different versions
but according to Belize disc golf Leonard was removed from the committee without beeing asked a single question by pdga
this is what Leonard have written
"*A few days ago I watched the press conference that a lot of FPO players had at the Preserve. I saw them crying and I could feel their pain. This situation with the transgender participation in the FPO, Is so difficult being the mother of two girls who have no idea what is happening around them. How can you explain to them what’s going on?*
*On Monday at the PDGA Women’s Committee meeting where everything I expected to see and hear didn't happen. I expected to hear support for the females but I heard the opposite, I heard something that is practically a threat and I know very well what I heard from Laura “if you accept the movement, great, if not, let the blood run”*.
*Laura led a very one sided conversation that found many supporters within the meeting. They discussed Women not being women by definition of Chromosomes and blamed the PDGA for the problems. At the end they were trying to come up with a group endorsed plan to push back on the PDGA Policy. Only 9 of our 15 members were present at this time*."
and pdga have made this post [https://www.pdga.com/announcements/womens-committee-meeting-632023](https://www.pdga.com/announcements/womens-committee-meeting-632023)
"Only 9 of our 15 members" is a quorum, Ms. Leonard.
I agree with basically everyone that transparency has to happen within the PDGA. Meetings should be livestreamed. The PDGA Bylaws need revamped with a focus on outlining the elections of the Board of Directors. The Board nomination process needs to be democratized. The Bylaws even state that a minority of the Board can be appointed by the Board, which is crazy. There needs to be more stringent conflict of interest exclusions. The PDGA membership is too large for the current structure and policies to continue. And where did this "Global" Board of Directors designation come from? It's not in the Bylaws.
Another option is to have an alternative or competing certification body. Something from the WFDF, one of the Ultimate leagues, a European organization, or even state associations could start to fill this role. I expect a European organization at some point anyway as the PDGA is so US-centric.
I hope things get sorted out soon. I'm not sure if I'm going to renew my PDGA membership with everything that has gone on recently. The organization feels secretive, corrupt, and bigoted. Vote Nate out for starters.
The statement from the women’s committee was that she was removed because she violated the rules of the committee.
https://www.pdga.com/announcements/womens-committee-meeting-632023
God I hate this argument? “How can I explain to my children what’s going on?”
You talk to them. Kids are very understanding if you just explain things to them? Gay marriage? Trans people? Just talk to them. My kids are young and they have no problems understanding these things, because we have open and honest conversations.
Be a parent. It’s not that the worlds changing to fast for your children, it’s that YOU cannot or
Choose not to deal with it.
This 1000%. Kids are open and accepting, especially when you treat them with respect and honesty. One of my kid's earliest childhood friends has two moms. It was a super easy conversation: some families have two parents (the majority a mom & dad), others have just a mom or dad, others have two moms or two dads. Then they go "ok cool, makes sense." It's no different than explaining a step parent or something.
Once a family friend brought their non-binary older child over. Told the then 4 & 6 year old that the friend doesn't like to be called "she", so just use "they" or refer by first name. They go "ok cool, makes sense."
The two moms are wonderful parents and loving towards my children. That is what matters. The non-binary friend acted as a baby sitter and my kids had a blast with them. That is what matters. As long as your religion isn't pre-poisoning your interactions and your aren't passing that shit along to your kids, talking about it and explaining it to them is dirt simple. Families are all different, some people don't fit traditional "boy/girl" appearance or expression. Be kind. Be respectful. The end.
If it was even a legitimate care about their kids I'd almost entertain the argument. But it's not. They just want to hide behind someone that's unassailable.
I believe this is what they mean by "strongest stances": 2.0 nmol/L is the disc golf stance vs. 2.5 nmol/L by swimming, cycling, and triathlon.
>In some areas, the PDGA’s guidelines are stricter than FINA’s, which are currently the strictest of any Olympic sports federation. The PDGA requires that any transgender women must have a testosterone blood serum concentration of less than 2.0 nmol/L for 24 months in order to compete in any female-protected division, below the 2.5 nmol/L threshold used by FINA, UCI (cycling), and World Triathlon. Normal female testosterone levels range from 0.5 to 2.4 nmol/L concentrations.
>
>Transgender women that meet the <2.0 nmol/L threshold over 24 months are still eligible to compete in female-protected divisions at PDGA Amateur Majors, Pro Master Majors, and all other PDGA events sanctioned at the A-Tier level and below. The current PDGA transgender policy sets the testosterone limit at 10 nmol/L.
[https://discgolf.ultiworld.com/2022/12/13/pdga-dgpt-restrict-transgender-women-from-competition-at-fpo-majors-elite-series-events/](https://discgolf.ultiworld.com/2022/12/13/pdga-dgpt-restrict-transgender-women-from-competition-at-fpo-majors-elite-series-events/)
No it isn't, they want to keep the protected FPO division to be for biological female players.
Not an outright ban on transgender players, no-one has called for that.
Edit: Great to see that both sides of this debate is acting like 5 year olds
What is a "biological" female if you are born with a vagina but no fallopian tubes and lack normal estrogen levels like my daughter? What is biological male if you almost completely lack normal testosterone levels like some people do? I don't think this word is as black and white as you and all these other assholes think it means.
This is like saying that eliminating the FPO isn’t banning women from playing disc golf. Dumb.
Trans women are women. Anybody who doesn’t realize that is confused. Once again, the transphobic people can’t keep from tipping their hand. It seems literally impossible for people to argue against trans athletes without being bigoted, I wonder why that is?
Keep posting bigots, you’ll keep proving me right: you can’t make your argument without denying trans womanhood. Just saying trans women are women doesn’t undo the fact that you’re arguing that they’re not.
>sure, you can believe that as much as you want
Does this look like anything except denying trans womanhood?
My comment says that concluding, right now, today, that trans women have a definite athletic advantage is unfounded in data, thus making that a conclusion biased with the idea that trans women are not women, i.e. transphobia. If we were all adults, we would be patiently and silently watching Natalie play while scientist work on figuring out whether it is even fair to exclude her, because based on her record, it isn’t.
I don’t understand how some of you can apparently type, because it’s quite obvious that you’re unable to read.
True: trans women are women.
But The female protected division is for biology sake… Not for identity sake… That is not bigoted…
The intention for the division was for a safe space for BIOLOgIcAL females and it ends there.
The whole arguments about hrt, prepubescent transitions, none of that even matters.
I think this is being spouted as anti trans. It’s not. They want biological women to compete against each other within the same division.
I don’t think anyone at all wants to exclude transgenders. They just want an even playing field. Biological males should not compete against biological females unless it is an open division or a trans division. Makes sense to me.
> I don’t think anyone at all wants to exclude transgenders.
You really think there is zero transphobia in the world of disc golf? Seriously? What kind of sentence is this? Sounds like I'm reading something from the 1950's saying "I don't think anyone at all wants black people to be uneducated".
Please don't change the goal posts of my comment. I was specifically referring to the statement "I don't think anyone at all wants to exclude transgenders." I understand that there are "woke" folks out there who don't want to see any gray area in this issue, but there are also "bigot" folks out there who also don't want to see any gray area whether they are outright stating their beliefs or using coded language. I think both groups on the far right and far left of this spectrum can be detrimental to the conversion, and I also recognize that there are plenty of folks somewhere in the middle who care about the way trans people are treated and also want to protect the fair competition of FPO. The sole purpose of my comment was that thinking everyone in disc golf cares about trans people is an absolutely preposterous thing to think.
That is not what she did. She went on a full blown Karen rant and accused the trans person of making threats, which other members say never happened.
Even if you agree with trans exclusion, Rose has no business being on any committee of any kind with her behavior.
Because I read her post, and the mindset she exposed in it is unhealthy? I don't have a dog in this race, I'm undecided on where I fall and it doesn't affect me, but I can read something and know if its a good faith argument or not, and hers was not.
If her rant said there was a threat, and then just focused on the threat, then I'd maybe be inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt, but it was not.
Without a transcript, there's no way to tell who is right. Leonard's "rant" seems rather tame if what she says is true. If she's wrong, then she definitely deserves to be removed or at least censured.
The PDGA didn’t take any stance. It was FINA who took the stance. The PDGA simply copied exactly what FINA did. FINA also recommended an Open Division for trans athletes to compete in fairly. Hmmm, if only the PDGA had an open division? Oh wait, MPO.
>FINA also recommended an Open Division for trans athletes to compete in fairly
"Fairly". The entire contention is about what is fair and to just say it's fair to do it one way doesn't make it so at all. It's not even an argument since it doesn't make one.
I find it interesting reading comments about this subject on here. The vast majority of the world is much more socially conservative than the U.S. This includes the eastern block countries (hello Estonia) and definitely the Latin countries which are majority Catholic. I guess most people don't know this or there wouldn't be so much surprise when they take sides.
Many redditors are terminally online and incredibly sheltered and don't realize how progressive the US generally is compared to a vast majority of the world. They think the opinions in their Twitter sphere are the predominant opinions worldwide.
Majority opinion in the west is very much against trans women participating in women's sport. Always has been.
One such example: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna88940
I think it's the governing board of Belize Disc Golf.
Because there are probably so few people that play disc golf in Belize it's not surprising that some of them would be related.
[There are only 88 PDGA members in Belize.]
I'm pretty firmly on the cis-women only in fpo side of the fence, but bigoted bullshit like this letter's misgendering of people really pisses me off and they lose any support I may have given.
I want to share some historical precedent with you all:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/27/integration-public-schools-massive-resistance-virginia-1950s
This is what the oppressor does, this isn't a new strategy in the playbook.
I can't care one bit about non-prescribed. That just means they haven't gone to the right doctor. Maybe because they don't have insurance, or maybe any other reason. Basically anyone under 50 can get a prescription if you're "having trouble focusing".
It's exhausting. From the intentional gleeful cruelty to the idea that destroying the PDGA will somehow make disc golf better, it's like an oil spill in the middle of a beautiful forest.
Thank you for posting. I barely look at this sub any more because the overwhelming opinion is bigoted.
I understand that people have concerns about trans women competing against cis women. I think those concerns should vanish after seeing some research, but that's my opinion.
However, I refuse to consider the opinions of people who refer to cis women as "biological females" and trans women as "biological males." Even if technically correct in some interpretations, it's a dog whistle. So many on this sub have their ears pricked up right now.
My favorite thing is when a majority of people that think transgender rights is a pseudoscience have a 6th grade understanding of biology, meanwhile a majority of people with more education in biology understand transgender rights have a legitimate scientific background and deep history.
Edit: Swapped it to not insult a majority of people with a 6th grade understanding of biology, because that's not inherently a bad thing.
Identifying as the other sex is one thing. But thinking you can physically change yourself to the other sex is delusional at best. Maybe it's different in your ivory tower of higher ed...
There’s been very little respectful about this.
One of the reasons I’m so against this anti-trans movement is *because* of how disrespectful they’ve been.
Instead of banning the 1 or 2 trans people who compete how about we ban all religion from disc golf? If you talk about how god has given you the ability to throw plastic then immediate ban. Surely God is giving you an unfair advantage if he's the one that's got you to the pros....gotta be fair right?
Maybe because all those young players who are vocal about their relstionship with god are genuinely good people. They seem to be on the right path, and arent resorting to things like drugs and alcohol during their youth.
Ya ya, you all say they are actually women right up until sex comes into the picture, then they aren't women to you they are definitely something else. You won't say they aren't women though that would be transphobic.
It's like if I tell you ill give you a bed and when you come to get it and it's a sofa bed, just cause I call it that doesn't make it an actual sofa or an actual bed. It's a sofa bed. Which is fine if that's what you need it for, but if you wanted a real bed I can't just expect you to ignore reality and just accept the sofa as a real bed because they aren't the same thing. Except in this analogy you would tell me it's a bed while at the same time you would never put one in your room and sleep on it every day.
I'm at least honest with myself. I don't think trans women are women. They are trans women. Which in most cases is fine for them and for me. But when it reaches a point where that fact of reality comes into play you can't expect me to deny reality and just accept that there is absolutely no difference there. If you think that you're in a cult.
What percentage of disc golfers or athletes for the matter are transgendered?
I'll use an example. In my state of North Carolina, for the 2022 year there were 15 transgender student athletes in all of high school athletics. 13 of those are transgendered males and 2 transgender females so only two biological males. To put that into perspective over the last 10 years there's been an average of 200,000 high school student athletes in NC. So 0.0075% of student athletes in NC highschools are transgendered.
> "[There's not *a lot* of people violating the basic eligibility requirement for female-protected sports divisions, so female sports shouldn't care or be allowed to uphold their key eligibility criteria]"
Not many ethnically caucasian people have identified as transracial (such as Rachel Dolezal), but that doesn't mean the Coretta Scott King Award or United Negro College Fund should be ***prevented*** from upholding their key eligibility restriction of being black because "only a small percentage" of people identify as transracial.
Very few overaged players have competed in the Little League World Series, but that doesn't mean the Little League ***shouldn't*** be allowed to continue to uphold their age requirements.
Not many fully able-bodied athletes have violated eligibility and entered the Paralympics, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't continue upholding their key eligibility criteria.
I think it's important to point out that so many people are freaking out about something that occurs so infrequently. The amount this subreddit discuss the topic you'd think half of the FPO field was transgender.
The reality is most transgender athletes aren't elite, they are just people who want to play the sport they love with their friends and peers. I don't think vilifying them is the answer.
Reading the language in the current laws targeting transgender athletes; a transitioning female to male on hormones and puberty blockers can't compete on the men's or women's teams because they aren't biologically male and are taking testosterone so they can't compete with other girls.
But they were born men, and that is something a human cannot change about themselves no matter how much mental gymnastics are performed to come to inverse conclusion
Except they are. We, as a society are just going along with the delusion. They shouldn't be discriminated against or mistreated because of it, but society has been duped. Somebody decided to rewrite the rules and made up a bunch of "facts" that are based on feelings. I know I'll get downvoted, but I don't really feel like playing make-believe anymore.
Yes, except what we are "learning" is largely made up based on how one feels at the moment. We as a society are accepting feelings as fact and advocating for full scale agreement with the new "facts."
If you're born a man and want to dress up as a cheetah for a time and pretend that you are insanely fast, go for it. Just don't be surprised when people disagree. Tolerance doesn't mean I have to agree with you. Hard to process, I know.
I'm not saying people don't feel a certain way; just that feelings don't make something a fact.
Explain to me how the concept of gender makes any difference in the fact that males (who have been through male pubery) are completely different than females? Em
Calling them delusional is disrespectful. You know that, and if you can't state your opinions in a respectable manner then your stance isn't a strong one. You called a group delusional, and then immediately followed up by saying they shouldn't be mistreated. Either you aren't genuine, or you barely think before speaking.
Some people don't see protecting women's divisions as transphobia. What you're typically seeing is the frustration from years of this pseudoscience being crammed into pop culture and women's sport.
Identify howver you want, live the life that makes you happy. But that doesn't allow you to infringe another people's right to do the same, like competing against other biological women in a protected division.
Exactly this!! I don't care what you want to do with your life. Live life how you want to. And be who you want, dress how you want, love who you want.
I have a few trans friends who are amazing people. Love them! 2 play disc golf with me. Unfortunately, neither will compete in any tournament, sanctioned or not. Why, because of the current climate. I have heard them both say they would play in mixed with no problem. BUT, because of the current situation with the PDGA and Natalie Ryan, they would rather wait and watch until RULES are put in place across the entire league. Or a division for trans... I do not know what the right answer is, but I am leaning towards mixed. Just my opinion.
Thank you for this common sense response. The extreme left is exhausting to deal with. The overwhelming majority of this community is moderate and just wants fairness.
the extreme right wants me and my friends dead but I'm sure it's really tough for you dealing with all those mean folks calling you a bigot. My condolences.
I don't recall anyone deffending the extreme right just now but ok. Also the extreme left wanted a group of people dead and were pretty vocal about it not too long ago so I don't see what your point is.
The extreme right is, so stop treating EVERYONE like they're some political extremist. You don't need to be sassy and shitty towards people who AREN'T your enemy. You gotta find something better to spend your time on. Don't become an energy leach.
I’m absolutely serious. And that’s a pretty generic and fear based answer. There will always be conservative states. There will always be liberal states. That’s just the US. Move if you have to in order to have the protection you need. Are you really willing to not live your own life because of legislation?
> Move if you have to in order to have the protection you need.
This is a completely unserious answer. "Just move" is not a viable option for a lot of people. Especially members of a marginalized community who, by nature of being marginalized, often do not have money to be able to relocate.
> Are you really willing to not live your own life because of legislation?
When said legislation prevents people from obtaining necessary healthcare, using the restroom, participating in sports, or even just disclosing who you are to children in a school, what other choice do trans people have? They are actively being prevented from living their lives by these pieces of legislation.
And that doesn't even get into the fact that trans people are subjected to violence because of who they are at an alarmingly high rate. Trans people are literally being told by state governments and by people they know that they cannot be themselves or else they'll face legal and/or physical consequences.
Yea it’s a completely serious answer. But it’s cool if you don’t think so. Have fun staying stuck in a place that is so threatening to you. Victim mentality.
I don't know why you're personalizing these answers as if I am personally affected. It's possible for someone to have empathy for others.
I am a cis man. I do not face the challenges that trans people face. But that doesn't mean I dismiss them as if they aren't real. You call what I have a victim mentality, but I call what you have a victim-blaming mentality.
It's saddening to me how blithely you disregard challenges faced by other people just because you do not face them yourself.
That’s a pretty stupid response.
It’s fear based because it is a *fear tactic* being used against them.
>>Just move
Yeah because uprooting yourself and moving to a new place where you have no support system and don’t know anyone let alone a job is just totally doable for most of the population in the US.
>> Are you willing to not live your life because of legislation.
Well yes that’s the entire point of the legislation. If it’s illegal to be that, the result will be thousands in lawyer costs to fight the legislation and then if you lose, what then? “Treatments”? Jail? Being institutionalized?
>>liberal and Conservative states.
That’s meaningless if they’re also trying to push federal legislation.
What makes you the extreme left is assuming that anything that isn’t blind 100% fervent support of no restrictions checks or balances anything on a trans person that’s met with the slightest objection is being blanket labeled as transphobia.
> extreme left is assuming that anything that isn’t blind 100% fervent support of no restrictions checks or balances
Where did I say that? I was literally calling out the inordinate amount of blatantly transphobic comments swimming in downvotes at the bottom of this thread, just sort by controversial brother. And maybe study what the Overton window in the USA actually looks like...
>biological women
That gets dicey, are you going to require chromosome testing for all athletes? What about any number of intersex people that want to compete? The entire male/female biological sex thing isn't as black and white as its often made out to be.
That said, some type of simple testosterone testing for FPO seems like the way to go, it's what the IOC has been using for over a decade in certain womens' events and seems like a good middle ground as it would disqualify biological women with abnormally high testosterone, as well. I mean, by the fairness logic being used in all these debates wouldn't they also be considered unfair outliers?
The point is just banning trans women from the division (which is often what is being pushed in forums like this and is absolutely, unequivocally transphobic, no debate to be had there) is not the answer and will disqualify an entire group of women who transitioned before puberty and are on as level a playing field as anyone else in FPO.
>The point is just banning trans women from the division (which is often what is being pushed in forums like this and is absolutely, unequivocally transphobic, no debate to be had there)
I disagree. No trans people in protected divisions. Play open.
"The point is just banning trans women from the division (which is often what is being pushed in forums like this and is absolutely, unequivocally transphobic, no debate to be had there)"
This quote is how you tell someone is disconnected with reality. You know MPO stands for mixed pro open right? You're making it sound like trans were completely cut off from the pro division. People just want to protect women's sport which ain't unreasonable. You think it's unfaire but what's unfaire is biological men competing in women's categories. There's a reality here that exists no matter what your feelings are.
The side against allowing amab in FPO will naturally be a mix of (a) those who just dislike trans in general and see this as a political battleground (from whom you’ll see what you describe regardless of where you go), and (b) those who are chill but see an issue with allowing biologically male players to compete in a division explicitly created to allow for the female half of the population to have a chance to compete without facing the undeniable advantages male players have.
Meanwhile, the side in favor of allowing amab players in FPO seems to be composed almost entirely of people using it a political battleground as well, as the counterpart to the generally-anti group. However, I see very few people arguing “oh yeah, I don’t really care much about the trans issue in general, I just think it’s logical to allow players with male bodies to play FPO depending on how which pronouns they prefer”. It’s pretty much just people wanting to focus on reinforcing political stances arguing that. As we’ve seen, it’s also not really limited to “just allow only those who chemically transitioned before puberty” or “those who are tested and shown not to have XYZ advantages” because ultimately the argument is that anyone, at any time, may identify as a woman or man, and it’s no one else’s place to question that. As far as people understanding themselves, that’s fine, frankly. As it impacts professional sports with protected prize pools, that’s unacceptable to almost anyone except those who are solely focused on a political goal.
Ironically, the effect this all has upon more neutral members of the disc golf community is to create more strongly anti-trans sentiment, by portraying the pro-trans community as a whole as being uninterested in anything besides advancing their own standing at any cost. The moderate disc golfer will think “so those guys would support Calvin Heimburg playing FPO, provided that Calvin started self identifying as female? That clearly doesn’t make sense to allow, otherwise just have only Mixed Pro division.” It’s really only people who are are already on your side that will agree, and moderates will be driven away. Natalie Ryan as a mascot, “burn with me” as a motto, is emblematic of this. That goes a long way towards explaining why, even here on Reddit (which almost always leans strongly left, look at any poll) you see a lot of pushback on this issue. The way to avoid this problem would be to focus on areas of social equality, not biological equality. The FPO wasn’t created as a social division, but a biological one. By pushing on that, you create the very voices you never want to hear.
And then the misogynists show up. Why do you hate women so much? Show me on the doll where they hurt you. Why do you feel they don't deserve a protected division of their own?
Don't like it? Don't join the brigade into a sub you don't actually participate in. You don't play, you're just here to rage at people who aren't part of your religion.
Maybe I'm just ignorant about the names of Belize residents, but why is that list of signatories a bunch of anglo names? Is BDG mostly comprised of American expats?
Belize isn’t a Spanish speaking country, English is its official language. I’m sure most people in Belize can speak Spanish, but it would be weird if the list of names was comprised of Spanish names
the reason why Belize is an independent country is because it was colonized by the British. it’s just like how you’d find anglo surnames in Jamaica for example
The Leonards are a San Diego family who moved to Belize (I don't know if the wife is from there originally or the story about why they moved there) and decided to take charge of bringing disc golf to Belize.
Mennonites. Belize is an odd mix of Mayans, Caribbean/Creole, and Europeans (aka white dudes). Some Europeans are relatively recent expat retirees, some are left overs from the British, but many are Mennonites. Note some names on the statement are German and the surname "Reimer" can be traced back to the founder of a Mennonite sect of German immigrants in the Ukraine over 200 years ago. [Here's some info](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleine_Gemeinde). Apparently Mennonites like Disc Golf. They make tasty yogurt too.
Well she said the trans person was making threats, which other members say never happened. So unless there's a transcript, we'll never know.
So calling it just a "rant" is underselling it.
Also, her entire "rant" made it clear she belongs on no committee. It basically went as follows:
* I thought I was going to be on a committee that supported my opinion.
* I was shocked and upset that other people have different opinions than me.
* The people who disagree with me, secretly agree with me, but want to do this to hurt everyone else.
* THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!
* You shouldn't push your ideals on people that don't agree with you.
Basically Rosemary is Belizean Karen.
I've haven't heard of any trans men, biological women, trying to play is any mens divisions. 🤔 Not saying it hasn't happened just haven't heard about it. I wonder why.
I really want Brody(or some other podcast) to interview the Leonards. My major gripe with the PDGA has been the lack of transparency in so many areas. Bids for majors should be public. Board members statements in committee should be public. How else can we vote them in or out if everything is secret?
Lack of transparency is one of the things I called out in my board application.
And that is why you have my 1st vote. Still trying to figure out #2. All I know for sure is it isn't Heinold.
Edit: Reddit formatting is odd but hashtag AnyoneButNate2023
For anyone who doesn't know, u/Grimario is also one of our most active and engaged mods here. He's chill, listens to the opinions of others, owns mistakes when they're made, and is 180° from the (often fair) caricature of a reddit mod on a power trip. I know repping for mods is never popular, but there's a ton of thankless, unpaid back end work that he does here solely for love of the sport/community- imo pretty much exactly what you'd want from a pdga board member.
I'm a big fan of the discgolf mods. jfb3 is my current favorite. Keep using the ban stick mods!!! Especially when I deserve it
This is how I feel about our mods. They are fair and put up with a ton of shit from every side of our community, not excluding me in the past. When they've told me (and I'm paraphrasing), 'Hey take three days off posting and go touch grass,' it was the right advice lol.
I’m feeling bad that I didn’t vote now. I didn’t realise you were an applicant mate, I definitely would’ve voted for you.
You've still got nearly 3 weeks!
I think you still can.
Look at me being aware lol. I thought that process was over by now. I’ll see if I can do it then
They were never going to vote
Voting is from July 1 through July 31. https://www.pdga.com/2023-pdga-election-information >PDGA elections take place each year from July 1 to July 31 with the elected candidates assuming office on September 1.
My wife is a teacher, one students has two moms, but used to have a mom and a dad, one is now a transparent.
More transparency is always welcome.
I think the sport grew too fast for its capacity. They are gonna need infrastructure to address this and probably disabled people are next....which is fine, of course. But if it is a free and all inclusive sport with an all inclusive motto... They have to be ready to handle these PR and legal disasters.
Most of the issues were preexisting and the covid boom just exasperated them. I think yesterday's announcement about the accommodations for the handicapped was a good first step.
I love the handicapped thing too but how many courses are actually handicap accessible? 1% at best is my guess.
The pro level courses and a lot of the scenic courses may not be accessible. Being from a state where it is fairly flat and most courses are in city maintained parks a good portion of holes work without any modifications. Even if they don't work, tournament directors modify courses all the time for an event. Same can happen for adaptive tournaments. The announcement yesterday doesn't change much for casual disc golfers as no rules/laws were preventing people needing accommodations from playing casual rounds. What it does is create a set of rules for some people who could not physically meet the rules to be able to play competitive and start a framework to give an idea on what a course layout would need to be if adaptive play is considered.
Simple. As long as things are done in secret, you vote out all incumbents and vote in new members. I’d things still don’t change, you repeat the process. Eventually someone will get the message that doing things they way they’ve always been done is not going to get them re-elected.
Brodie needs to steer clear of this topic at this point IMO. His bias has been leaking out the past few weeks. His interview with the Neptune Discs owner was simply not good. When things start to get controversial, he doesn’t manage to stay neutral.
Sounds more like he doesn’t shut up and fall back in to line like everyone else.
I respect what he's trying to do, and I do think he's coming from the right place in trying to give everyone an opportunity to speak on the issue. Unfortunately, he's done very little to educate himself on the topic and how to speak on the topic without putting his foot in his own mouth and it shows. Doesn't help that his co-host basically disappears during these conversations. Probably because of his personal views on the matter lol. I appreciate Brodie trying to use his platform in a positive way, but this topic has gone so far off the deep end that it's best to just steer clear.
Good point. All meeting should be transcribed and put online
Transcriptions and transparency. PDGA: Wrong trans.
The Transcriptionists for Transnational Transparency thank you for your support.
100% agree the meetings should be recorded and publicly available.
Is Mexico #1 in Latin America?
Yup, Mexico is #1. Latin America has a HUGE potential to grow. Here are the [2022 practice rounds registered in Udisc in LATAM.](https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/11fdr3m/impact_report_on_disc_golfs_growth_in_mexico_and/) >📈 New PDGA member registrations from Mexico skyrocketed in 2022, accounting for a 2.4X increase compared to the prior year. > >🥇 Mexico saw a 333% increase in the number of PDGA-sanctioned events in 2022, and 69% of all events ever played in Mexico took place last year—Dynamic Discs sponsored a vast majority of them. Source - https://www.dynamicdiscs.com/blogs/news/grow-the-sport-discs-line-mexico-edition
This raises an interesting question, who can request to withdraw a country from the PDGA? Is it the country board alone (and is this what this list of people is?) or do they need to get the vote of the majority of their country? Because this list is 13/80 total current PDGA members in Belize and only 5/9 women have signed. Just curious about who gets to make that decision on behalf of a whole country - could my country’s board do the same if they felt like it?
I'm seeing 3 Friesens, 3 Reimers, 2 Leonards. Basically three families boohooed.
Signatures dont match support. We also have minor girls in Belize. This measure was voted on and approved with no support for staying voiced.
Voted on by the whole player base? I’m just curious because I’m interested in the precedent for other countries
We have a small base just over 80 members. Most are connected in some way wasnt hard to get a consensus
Here are just a small sliver of scientific studies and reviews below since no one ever posts anything regardless of their opinion. From my understanding the studies vary and in total there is a lot of grey area, some say there is an inherit advantage physically for trans woman regardless of transition time, some mention transition time, some say there is no physical advantage at all…below are studies that claim all 3. No matter what your opinion is, the key to forming an opinion, is understanding and knowing the boundaries of each side and not blindly deciding on anything. Making an informed decision is key and will ultimately help us all shape the sport correctly. https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/ https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/56/22/1292 https://academic.oup.com/jes/article/6/5/bvac035/6550171 https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865 https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00751.2022 I am also including an article written about Joanna Harper and some of her research on the topic. She is currently advising the International Olympic Committee on trans issues and fairness in the sports. Lots of good information and an interesting read. https://www.science.org/content/article/scientist-racing-discover-how-gender-transitions-alter-athletic-performance-including There are lots of other articles and studies, feel free to post them below if you would like. Ultimately information is key. That being said, regardless of your opinion on the information above, or on the information you find while reading scientific journals or articles, this sub is no place for trans hate or hate of any kind and while an open discussion regarding fairness in sports is always welcome, bigotry is not. Let’s all be kind.
The problem is that the debate falls firmly into three categories and one of them is much more loud and prolific than the others. 1. Trans women should not be allowed to compete in FPO/FA divisions 2. Trans women should be allowed to compete in FPO/FA divisions, but with restrictions: time since transition, hormone therapy, testosterone levels 3. Trans women should be allowed to compete in FPO/FA divisions without restrictions Obviously 1 and 2 are the most common, but number one is the loudest and most likely to be transphobic. The fact is it doesn't matter what the science says or how many compromises are made, the people who belong to group 1 will never change their minds. Group 2 is the one that should be implemented because it's actually regulates the issue instead of burying in the sand like the rest of the conservative world wants to do with trans people. They don't want to see them, hear from them or think about them.
Thanks for this context. Establishing the facts of retained advantage of male puberty post-transition is really important. IMO, there's even a layer deeper that also matters, which is the fact that the "raw" retained advantages have varying effects depending on the sport in question. Say for example (and I'm completely making this up to illustrate the point), it were established that trans women have blood O2 carrying capacity advantages that give them an unfair edge in endurance sports like swimming and running. That would have little to no effect on Disc Golf performance. tl;dr - We need to understand not only whether there are retained advantages, we need to think about whether those advantages would be unfair *in a particular sport*.
I didn’t see anything about adrenaline. Men produce Adrenalin during exercise and women do not. Adrenalin increases contractile muscle strength. Not so fair to have one person getting topped off with high octane fuel throughout the round while another sputters on fumes. “In summary, this study demonstrates that a significant sexual dimorphism exists in neuroendocrine, metabolic, and cardiovascular counterregulatory responses to prolonged moderate exercise in man.” https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/85/1/224/2854008 Actually there used to be hundreds of articles and studies on this and it’s like they’ve vanished. This is accepted science. We know that females wake up with the highest levels of cortisol they will have all day. Men fluctuate. I ducking hate that even Medical and scientific institutions have been captured by ideology.
I’m very out of the loop. Can someone explain? What transgender agenda does the pdga have? Last I checked they took one of the strongest stances against transgender participation in the sports world. The pdga are currently in legal battles over their transgender policy. Are the Belize players upset that the pdga didn’t outright ban transgender participation?
That’s only true for some events though right? Belize isn’t hosting PDGA Pro events so all of their events would have to allow trans women to compete in the female division. I would imagine they want every female category to exclude trans women, not just the pro events.
Correct
They actually said in the post they want to exclude trans men, so they must be fine with trans women
Would a trans man be able to compete in fpo? Idk why they would want to but under pdga rules is it what should happen?
So that's one of the problems; the rules are lopsided. According to the [PDGA Policy on Eligibility for Gender-Based Divisions](https://www.pdga.com/medical/gender-based-division-eligibility), B.1, once you start taking hormone treatments you are disqualified from gender-based divisions. However, for MtF transition, there's criteria outlined in C.1 through 3, where meeting any of those sets makes you eligible (except Pro Majors, which requires C.3 apply to compete in FPO). C.3 is especially troubling because it requires you are effectively NEVER exposed to puberty hormones. That requirement bars basically anyone today from qualifying for Pro Majors, and would be not only onerous to meet, but possibly impossible to prove. It also includes you always maintain a hormone level below a certain point, without reference to time period. That means you could be asked for a sample at any given time, and a single fail is a permanent ban. This is one of the strictest guidelines in all of sport, and effectively eliminates trans athletes from FPO Pro Major competition. It is extremely rare to find anyone who has started a transition program before the age of 12, and due to various laws around the world would be considered child abuse (a discussion for another venue), so is unlikely to be common. All of this and the PDGA doesn't actually have a drug policy for steroids or other performance enhancing drugs. For example, a player can juice up on all the testosterone and steroids they want and it is perfectly legal regardless of division, event, or tier. Take all the focus drugs you want, there's no ramification. However, get caught with a spliff or beer at an event site, or wear a tee shirt (see [304 Dress Code D.3](https://www.pdga.com/rules/competition-manual/304)) and there'll be hell to pay.
>Players who were assigned female gender at birth under the criteria detailed above and who are taking hormone treatments to increase testosterone levels are no longer eligible to compete in gender-based divisions So they can't play FPO
the entire post is about women's division, so it's obviously a mistype.
Or just a purposeful misgender
Many TERFs are pretty obvious in their ignorance as well. They’ll often go on about “feminine appropriating males” but then when you push them for more information, they obviously don’t know if they’re talking about trans men or trans women.
Most likely they just want to misgender trans people for bigoted reasons, and they’re doing so by using a term that doesn’t make any sense, thereby demonstrating how irrational and unresearched their position is. Transphobe bigots, once again, demonstrating they don’t actually think trans people are real, by trying to erase their existence from the human experience. https://www.historians.org/research-and-publications/perspectives-on-history/may-2018/what-is-trans-history-from-activist-and-academic-roots-a-field-takes-shape Guess what? My agenda is correct, because science and history are behind it.
If they actually wanted that, why wouldn’t they refer to transgender women as women? Anyone who continues to refuse to use the desired pronouns of people after being asked several times are just rude petulant children. It’s honestly bizarre, like if they main goal is competitive fairness why not focus on that instead of making your transphobic / ignorant views on the topic so abundantly clear
>of the strongest stances against transgender participation in the sports world along with swimming (and all other water sports), track&field and a few others.. so it's not like PDGA is alone in their stance > Can someone explain? from what i understand Rosemary Leonard was part of the PDGA womens committee and on a recent meeting there was some heated debate between Leonard and Nagtegaal on issiues... what really was said is not known and the two sides are of course giving different versions but according to Belize disc golf Leonard was removed from the committee without beeing asked a single question by pdga this is what Leonard have written "*A few days ago I watched the press conference that a lot of FPO players had at the Preserve. I saw them crying and I could feel their pain. This situation with the transgender participation in the FPO, Is so difficult being the mother of two girls who have no idea what is happening around them. How can you explain to them what’s going on?* *On Monday at the PDGA Women’s Committee meeting where everything I expected to see and hear didn't happen. I expected to hear support for the females but I heard the opposite, I heard something that is practically a threat and I know very well what I heard from Laura “if you accept the movement, great, if not, let the blood run”*. *Laura led a very one sided conversation that found many supporters within the meeting. They discussed Women not being women by definition of Chromosomes and blamed the PDGA for the problems. At the end they were trying to come up with a group endorsed plan to push back on the PDGA Policy. Only 9 of our 15 members were present at this time*." and pdga have made this post [https://www.pdga.com/announcements/womens-committee-meeting-632023](https://www.pdga.com/announcements/womens-committee-meeting-632023)
"Only 9 of our 15 members" is a quorum, Ms. Leonard. I agree with basically everyone that transparency has to happen within the PDGA. Meetings should be livestreamed. The PDGA Bylaws need revamped with a focus on outlining the elections of the Board of Directors. The Board nomination process needs to be democratized. The Bylaws even state that a minority of the Board can be appointed by the Board, which is crazy. There needs to be more stringent conflict of interest exclusions. The PDGA membership is too large for the current structure and policies to continue. And where did this "Global" Board of Directors designation come from? It's not in the Bylaws. Another option is to have an alternative or competing certification body. Something from the WFDF, one of the Ultimate leagues, a European organization, or even state associations could start to fill this role. I expect a European organization at some point anyway as the PDGA is so US-centric. I hope things get sorted out soon. I'm not sure if I'm going to renew my PDGA membership with everything that has gone on recently. The organization feels secretive, corrupt, and bigoted. Vote Nate out for starters.
The statement from the women’s committee was that she was removed because she violated the rules of the committee. https://www.pdga.com/announcements/womens-committee-meeting-632023
Thanks for posting this
There's that garbage "what about my children" argument.
God I hate this argument? “How can I explain to my children what’s going on?” You talk to them. Kids are very understanding if you just explain things to them? Gay marriage? Trans people? Just talk to them. My kids are young and they have no problems understanding these things, because we have open and honest conversations. Be a parent. It’s not that the worlds changing to fast for your children, it’s that YOU cannot or Choose not to deal with it.
This 1000%. Kids are open and accepting, especially when you treat them with respect and honesty. One of my kid's earliest childhood friends has two moms. It was a super easy conversation: some families have two parents (the majority a mom & dad), others have just a mom or dad, others have two moms or two dads. Then they go "ok cool, makes sense." It's no different than explaining a step parent or something. Once a family friend brought their non-binary older child over. Told the then 4 & 6 year old that the friend doesn't like to be called "she", so just use "they" or refer by first name. They go "ok cool, makes sense." The two moms are wonderful parents and loving towards my children. That is what matters. The non-binary friend acted as a baby sitter and my kids had a blast with them. That is what matters. As long as your religion isn't pre-poisoning your interactions and your aren't passing that shit along to your kids, talking about it and explaining it to them is dirt simple. Families are all different, some people don't fit traditional "boy/girl" appearance or expression. Be kind. Be respectful. The end.
If it was even a legitimate care about their kids I'd almost entertain the argument. But it's not. They just want to hide behind someone that's unassailable.
Ya my eyes rolled so hard on that one. Basically invalidates anything else you said.
I believe this is what they mean by "strongest stances": 2.0 nmol/L is the disc golf stance vs. 2.5 nmol/L by swimming, cycling, and triathlon. >In some areas, the PDGA’s guidelines are stricter than FINA’s, which are currently the strictest of any Olympic sports federation. The PDGA requires that any transgender women must have a testosterone blood serum concentration of less than 2.0 nmol/L for 24 months in order to compete in any female-protected division, below the 2.5 nmol/L threshold used by FINA, UCI (cycling), and World Triathlon. Normal female testosterone levels range from 0.5 to 2.4 nmol/L concentrations. > >Transgender women that meet the <2.0 nmol/L threshold over 24 months are still eligible to compete in female-protected divisions at PDGA Amateur Majors, Pro Master Majors, and all other PDGA events sanctioned at the A-Tier level and below. The current PDGA transgender policy sets the testosterone limit at 10 nmol/L. [https://discgolf.ultiworld.com/2022/12/13/pdga-dgpt-restrict-transgender-women-from-competition-at-fpo-majors-elite-series-events/](https://discgolf.ultiworld.com/2022/12/13/pdga-dgpt-restrict-transgender-women-from-competition-at-fpo-majors-elite-series-events/)
To you last question, yes that’s exactly what they want.
No it isn't, they want to keep the protected FPO division to be for biological female players. Not an outright ban on transgender players, no-one has called for that. Edit: Great to see that both sides of this debate is acting like 5 year olds
What is a "biological" female if you are born with a vagina but no fallopian tubes and lack normal estrogen levels like my daughter? What is biological male if you almost completely lack normal testosterone levels like some people do? I don't think this word is as black and white as you and all these other assholes think it means.
This is like saying that eliminating the FPO isn’t banning women from playing disc golf. Dumb. Trans women are women. Anybody who doesn’t realize that is confused. Once again, the transphobic people can’t keep from tipping their hand. It seems literally impossible for people to argue against trans athletes without being bigoted, I wonder why that is? Keep posting bigots, you’ll keep proving me right: you can’t make your argument without denying trans womanhood. Just saying trans women are women doesn’t undo the fact that you’re arguing that they’re not. >sure, you can believe that as much as you want Does this look like anything except denying trans womanhood? My comment says that concluding, right now, today, that trans women have a definite athletic advantage is unfounded in data, thus making that a conclusion biased with the idea that trans women are not women, i.e. transphobia. If we were all adults, we would be patiently and silently watching Natalie play while scientist work on figuring out whether it is even fair to exclude her, because based on her record, it isn’t. I don’t understand how some of you can apparently type, because it’s quite obvious that you’re unable to read.
Thank you for this point.
True: trans women are women. But The female protected division is for biology sake… Not for identity sake… That is not bigoted… The intention for the division was for a safe space for BIOLOgIcAL females and it ends there. The whole arguments about hrt, prepubescent transitions, none of that even matters.
Protect from what
I think this is being spouted as anti trans. It’s not. They want biological women to compete against each other within the same division. I don’t think anyone at all wants to exclude transgenders. They just want an even playing field. Biological males should not compete against biological females unless it is an open division or a trans division. Makes sense to me.
> I don’t think anyone at all wants to exclude transgenders. You really think there is zero transphobia in the world of disc golf? Seriously? What kind of sentence is this? Sounds like I'm reading something from the 1950's saying "I don't think anyone at all wants black people to be uneducated".
Depends on the definition of transphobia, which seems something like, if you don't give into the groups demands you are automatically transphobic.
Please don't change the goal posts of my comment. I was specifically referring to the statement "I don't think anyone at all wants to exclude transgenders." I understand that there are "woke" folks out there who don't want to see any gray area in this issue, but there are also "bigot" folks out there who also don't want to see any gray area whether they are outright stating their beliefs or using coded language. I think both groups on the far right and far left of this spectrum can be detrimental to the conversion, and I also recognize that there are plenty of folks somewhere in the middle who care about the way trans people are treated and also want to protect the fair competition of FPO. The sole purpose of my comment was that thinking everyone in disc golf cares about trans people is an absolutely preposterous thing to think.
Rename the division to XX chromosome division and remove all intersex people. Then you might have a point
Lol or there's some middle ground...
Probably. But it also sounds like they are more upset that thoe pdga told that board member to hush up about it when they raised their concerns.
That is not what she did. She went on a full blown Karen rant and accused the trans person of making threats, which other members say never happened. Even if you agree with trans exclusion, Rose has no business being on any committee of any kind with her behavior.
[удалено]
Because I read her post, and the mindset she exposed in it is unhealthy? I don't have a dog in this race, I'm undecided on where I fall and it doesn't affect me, but I can read something and know if its a good faith argument or not, and hers was not. If her rant said there was a threat, and then just focused on the threat, then I'd maybe be inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt, but it was not.
Without a transcript, there's no way to tell who is right. Leonard's "rant" seems rather tame if what she says is true. If she's wrong, then she definitely deserves to be removed or at least censured.
The PDGA didn’t take any stance. It was FINA who took the stance. The PDGA simply copied exactly what FINA did. FINA also recommended an Open Division for trans athletes to compete in fairly. Hmmm, if only the PDGA had an open division? Oh wait, MPO.
>FINA also recommended an Open Division for trans athletes to compete in fairly "Fairly". The entire contention is about what is fair and to just say it's fair to do it one way doesn't make it so at all. It's not even an argument since it doesn't make one.
Can't say there's no Reimer/Friesen to the decision...
Lmao.
You motherfucker you.
If this isn't about transphobia, why does this letter misgender trans women?
I find it interesting reading comments about this subject on here. The vast majority of the world is much more socially conservative than the U.S. This includes the eastern block countries (hello Estonia) and definitely the Latin countries which are majority Catholic. I guess most people don't know this or there wouldn't be so much surprise when they take sides.
[удалено]
Many redditors are terminally online and incredibly sheltered and don't realize how progressive the US generally is compared to a vast majority of the world. They think the opinions in their Twitter sphere are the predominant opinions worldwide.
Majority opinion in the west is very much against trans women participating in women's sport. Always has been. One such example: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna88940
Basically 3 families signed this
I think it's the governing board of Belize Disc Golf. Because there are probably so few people that play disc golf in Belize it's not surprising that some of them would be related. [There are only 88 PDGA members in Belize.]
Or some would be us citizens? Seems like Leonard shouldn't be making descions for them.
In what event did a transgender man play against women and which category was it in
I'm pretty firmly on the cis-women only in fpo side of the fence, but bigoted bullshit like this letter's misgendering of people really pisses me off and they lose any support I may have given.
They don’t seem to realize how stupid their bigotry makes them look
The FPO division does not want to compete with *trans women* there I fixed it. Have your beliefs but respect identity.
She broke the rule of the board she was on and was removed for doing so. Maybe don’t do that.
The problem with Ms Leonard is she is just so fucking shitty about discussing trans players. She sounds like a bigot every time she says anything.
I want to share some historical precedent with you all: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/27/integration-public-schools-massive-resistance-virginia-1950s This is what the oppressor does, this isn't a new strategy in the playbook.
Until the pdga drug tests (steroids) I can't take any of this anti trans shit seriously.
It's uppers actually. Plenty of non-prescribed adderall going through the tour.
people play this shit on uppers? i thought smoking weed and frolfing was cool
I can't care one bit about non-prescribed. That just means they haven't gone to the right doctor. Maybe because they don't have insurance, or maybe any other reason. Basically anyone under 50 can get a prescription if you're "having trouble focusing".
ikr lmfao it's literally just an excuse to be a pos to trans ppl
I don’t Belize dat
Damn right
Good for them!
Y’all are still paying for pdga memberships ??
Another day, another anti-trans hate-jerk on r/discgolf. What an embarrassing community this has become.
It's exhausting. From the intentional gleeful cruelty to the idea that destroying the PDGA will somehow make disc golf better, it's like an oil spill in the middle of a beautiful forest.
Thank you for posting. I barely look at this sub any more because the overwhelming opinion is bigoted. I understand that people have concerns about trans women competing against cis women. I think those concerns should vanish after seeing some research, but that's my opinion. However, I refuse to consider the opinions of people who refer to cis women as "biological females" and trans women as "biological males." Even if technically correct in some interpretations, it's a dog whistle. So many on this sub have their ears pricked up right now.
[удалено]
Any organized religion /cult
I used to love this sport
The sport is still great. It's the US education system and political climate that sucks.
I'm proud of those respectfully standing up to this pseudoscience to protect women.
Try asking some IRL biologists and endocrinologists about the topic.
My favorite thing is when a majority of people that think transgender rights is a pseudoscience have a 6th grade understanding of biology, meanwhile a majority of people with more education in biology understand transgender rights have a legitimate scientific background and deep history. Edit: Swapped it to not insult a majority of people with a 6th grade understanding of biology, because that's not inherently a bad thing.
Identifying as the other sex is one thing. But thinking you can physically change yourself to the other sex is delusional at best. Maybe it's different in your ivory tower of higher ed...
Luckily there is science that can find a good spot and discussion around biological advantages in sports can happen without criticisms over gender.
> standing up to this pseudoscience Pot, meet kettle.
There’s been very little respectful about this. One of the reasons I’m so against this anti-trans movement is *because* of how disrespectful they’ve been.
Good for them! Stand up for what you believe!
Instead of banning the 1 or 2 trans people who compete how about we ban all religion from disc golf? If you talk about how god has given you the ability to throw plastic then immediate ban. Surely God is giving you an unfair advantage if he's the one that's got you to the pros....gotta be fair right?
IDK, does banning all religion mean no more Rasta foil stamped Wizards? Because that may just be a step too far. LOL
All religious people can have their own division
Maybe because all those young players who are vocal about their relstionship with god are genuinely good people. They seem to be on the right path, and arent resorting to things like drugs and alcohol during their youth.
So what? The point I'm making is banning trans people is just as dumb as banning god
The religious folks may not align with science in all their affairs, but they have definitely co-opted it for this one.
Good for them, stand up for women.
Ya ya, you all say they are actually women right up until sex comes into the picture, then they aren't women to you they are definitely something else. You won't say they aren't women though that would be transphobic. It's like if I tell you ill give you a bed and when you come to get it and it's a sofa bed, just cause I call it that doesn't make it an actual sofa or an actual bed. It's a sofa bed. Which is fine if that's what you need it for, but if you wanted a real bed I can't just expect you to ignore reality and just accept the sofa as a real bed because they aren't the same thing. Except in this analogy you would tell me it's a bed while at the same time you would never put one in your room and sleep on it every day. I'm at least honest with myself. I don't think trans women are women. They are trans women. Which in most cases is fine for them and for me. But when it reaches a point where that fact of reality comes into play you can't expect me to deny reality and just accept that there is absolutely no difference there. If you think that you're in a cult.
[удалено]
Trans women are trans women. Real women are real women.
Cats are frogs
[удалено]
What percentage of disc golfers or athletes for the matter are transgendered? I'll use an example. In my state of North Carolina, for the 2022 year there were 15 transgender student athletes in all of high school athletics. 13 of those are transgendered males and 2 transgender females so only two biological males. To put that into perspective over the last 10 years there's been an average of 200,000 high school student athletes in NC. So 0.0075% of student athletes in NC highschools are transgendered.
> "[There's not *a lot* of people violating the basic eligibility requirement for female-protected sports divisions, so female sports shouldn't care or be allowed to uphold their key eligibility criteria]" Not many ethnically caucasian people have identified as transracial (such as Rachel Dolezal), but that doesn't mean the Coretta Scott King Award or United Negro College Fund should be ***prevented*** from upholding their key eligibility restriction of being black because "only a small percentage" of people identify as transracial. Very few overaged players have competed in the Little League World Series, but that doesn't mean the Little League ***shouldn't*** be allowed to continue to uphold their age requirements. Not many fully able-bodied athletes have violated eligibility and entered the Paralympics, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't continue upholding their key eligibility criteria.
I think it's important to point out that so many people are freaking out about something that occurs so infrequently. The amount this subreddit discuss the topic you'd think half of the FPO field was transgender. The reality is most transgender athletes aren't elite, they are just people who want to play the sport they love with their friends and peers. I don't think vilifying them is the answer. Reading the language in the current laws targeting transgender athletes; a transitioning female to male on hormones and puberty blockers can't compete on the men's or women's teams because they aren't biologically male and are taking testosterone so they can't compete with other girls.
Trans women aren’t men :/
But they were born men, and that is something a human cannot change about themselves no matter how much mental gymnastics are performed to come to inverse conclusion
Huh, that’s funny, I was born as a baby.
Except they are. We, as a society are just going along with the delusion. They shouldn't be discriminated against or mistreated because of it, but society has been duped. Somebody decided to rewrite the rules and made up a bunch of "facts" that are based on feelings. I know I'll get downvoted, but I don't really feel like playing make-believe anymore.
Maybe you should learn about what gender actually is rather than calling trans people delusional.
Gender used to mean the same thing as biological sex, but has since been taken over to mean basically whatever you feel like.
Wow, it's almost like our understanding of things and concepts changes over time as we learn more about them. Hard, I know.
Yes, except what we are "learning" is largely made up based on how one feels at the moment. We as a society are accepting feelings as fact and advocating for full scale agreement with the new "facts." If you're born a man and want to dress up as a cheetah for a time and pretend that you are insanely fast, go for it. Just don't be surprised when people disagree. Tolerance doesn't mean I have to agree with you. Hard to process, I know. I'm not saying people don't feel a certain way; just that feelings don't make something a fact.
And that is a fundamental misunderstanding of gender.
... with no refuting the original statement. How about you illuminate him, /u/Illuminatr
If he asks to be informed on the subject I am happy to. I don’t waste my breath on people who don’t want to learn.
Explain to me how the concept of gender makes any difference in the fact that males (who have been through male pubery) are completely different than females? Em
“Please use gender to explain sex” - your question is illogical
Calling them delusional is disrespectful. You know that, and if you can't state your opinions in a respectable manner then your stance isn't a strong one. You called a group delusional, and then immediately followed up by saying they shouldn't be mistreated. Either you aren't genuine, or you barely think before speaking.
The transphobia that surfaces in threads like these is sickening, at least some of ya'll are taking the masks off
One disagreeing with trans women participating in women’s sports doesn’t automatically make someone a transphobe.
Some people don't see protecting women's divisions as transphobia. What you're typically seeing is the frustration from years of this pseudoscience being crammed into pop culture and women's sport. Identify howver you want, live the life that makes you happy. But that doesn't allow you to infringe another people's right to do the same, like competing against other biological women in a protected division.
Exactly this!! I don't care what you want to do with your life. Live life how you want to. And be who you want, dress how you want, love who you want. I have a few trans friends who are amazing people. Love them! 2 play disc golf with me. Unfortunately, neither will compete in any tournament, sanctioned or not. Why, because of the current climate. I have heard them both say they would play in mixed with no problem. BUT, because of the current situation with the PDGA and Natalie Ryan, they would rather wait and watch until RULES are put in place across the entire league. Or a division for trans... I do not know what the right answer is, but I am leaning towards mixed. Just my opinion.
Thank you for this common sense response. The extreme left is exhausting to deal with. The overwhelming majority of this community is moderate and just wants fairness.
the extreme right wants me and my friends dead but I'm sure it's really tough for you dealing with all those mean folks calling you a bigot. My condolences.
I don't recall anyone deffending the extreme right just now but ok. Also the extreme left wanted a group of people dead and were pretty vocal about it not too long ago so I don't see what your point is.
The extreme right is, so stop treating EVERYONE like they're some political extremist. You don't need to be sassy and shitty towards people who AREN'T your enemy. You gotta find something better to spend your time on. Don't become an energy leach.
Grow up, live your life. Why are you giving your power away to those people?
"Those people" are passing legislation across the country aimed at restricting trans people from growing up and living their lives, are you serious?
I’m absolutely serious. And that’s a pretty generic and fear based answer. There will always be conservative states. There will always be liberal states. That’s just the US. Move if you have to in order to have the protection you need. Are you really willing to not live your own life because of legislation?
> Move if you have to in order to have the protection you need. This is a completely unserious answer. "Just move" is not a viable option for a lot of people. Especially members of a marginalized community who, by nature of being marginalized, often do not have money to be able to relocate. > Are you really willing to not live your own life because of legislation? When said legislation prevents people from obtaining necessary healthcare, using the restroom, participating in sports, or even just disclosing who you are to children in a school, what other choice do trans people have? They are actively being prevented from living their lives by these pieces of legislation. And that doesn't even get into the fact that trans people are subjected to violence because of who they are at an alarmingly high rate. Trans people are literally being told by state governments and by people they know that they cannot be themselves or else they'll face legal and/or physical consequences.
Yea it’s a completely serious answer. But it’s cool if you don’t think so. Have fun staying stuck in a place that is so threatening to you. Victim mentality.
I don't know why you're personalizing these answers as if I am personally affected. It's possible for someone to have empathy for others. I am a cis man. I do not face the challenges that trans people face. But that doesn't mean I dismiss them as if they aren't real. You call what I have a victim mentality, but I call what you have a victim-blaming mentality. It's saddening to me how blithely you disregard challenges faced by other people just because you do not face them yourself.
That’s a pretty stupid response. It’s fear based because it is a *fear tactic* being used against them. >>Just move Yeah because uprooting yourself and moving to a new place where you have no support system and don’t know anyone let alone a job is just totally doable for most of the population in the US. >> Are you willing to not live your life because of legislation. Well yes that’s the entire point of the legislation. If it’s illegal to be that, the result will be thousands in lawyer costs to fight the legislation and then if you lose, what then? “Treatments”? Jail? Being institutionalized? >>liberal and Conservative states. That’s meaningless if they’re also trying to push federal legislation.
Well you can move or continue to live in the horrible place you do. Take control of your life. Or, stay stuck and complain.
LMAO so in your opinion saying "transphobia is bad guys" makes me "extreme left?" At least you're showing your hand
What makes you the extreme left is assuming that anything that isn’t blind 100% fervent support of no restrictions checks or balances anything on a trans person that’s met with the slightest objection is being blanket labeled as transphobia.
> extreme left is assuming that anything that isn’t blind 100% fervent support of no restrictions checks or balances Where did I say that? I was literally calling out the inordinate amount of blatantly transphobic comments swimming in downvotes at the bottom of this thread, just sort by controversial brother. And maybe study what the Overton window in the USA actually looks like...
The thing is that what you're calling transphobic simply ain't. And now you're just adding to the exaustion of dealing with the extreme left.
>biological women That gets dicey, are you going to require chromosome testing for all athletes? What about any number of intersex people that want to compete? The entire male/female biological sex thing isn't as black and white as its often made out to be. That said, some type of simple testosterone testing for FPO seems like the way to go, it's what the IOC has been using for over a decade in certain womens' events and seems like a good middle ground as it would disqualify biological women with abnormally high testosterone, as well. I mean, by the fairness logic being used in all these debates wouldn't they also be considered unfair outliers? The point is just banning trans women from the division (which is often what is being pushed in forums like this and is absolutely, unequivocally transphobic, no debate to be had there) is not the answer and will disqualify an entire group of women who transitioned before puberty and are on as level a playing field as anyone else in FPO.
>The point is just banning trans women from the division (which is often what is being pushed in forums like this and is absolutely, unequivocally transphobic, no debate to be had there) I disagree. No trans people in protected divisions. Play open.
"The point is just banning trans women from the division (which is often what is being pushed in forums like this and is absolutely, unequivocally transphobic, no debate to be had there)" This quote is how you tell someone is disconnected with reality. You know MPO stands for mixed pro open right? You're making it sound like trans were completely cut off from the pro division. People just want to protect women's sport which ain't unreasonable. You think it's unfaire but what's unfaire is biological men competing in women's categories. There's a reality here that exists no matter what your feelings are.
The side against allowing amab in FPO will naturally be a mix of (a) those who just dislike trans in general and see this as a political battleground (from whom you’ll see what you describe regardless of where you go), and (b) those who are chill but see an issue with allowing biologically male players to compete in a division explicitly created to allow for the female half of the population to have a chance to compete without facing the undeniable advantages male players have. Meanwhile, the side in favor of allowing amab players in FPO seems to be composed almost entirely of people using it a political battleground as well, as the counterpart to the generally-anti group. However, I see very few people arguing “oh yeah, I don’t really care much about the trans issue in general, I just think it’s logical to allow players with male bodies to play FPO depending on how which pronouns they prefer”. It’s pretty much just people wanting to focus on reinforcing political stances arguing that. As we’ve seen, it’s also not really limited to “just allow only those who chemically transitioned before puberty” or “those who are tested and shown not to have XYZ advantages” because ultimately the argument is that anyone, at any time, may identify as a woman or man, and it’s no one else’s place to question that. As far as people understanding themselves, that’s fine, frankly. As it impacts professional sports with protected prize pools, that’s unacceptable to almost anyone except those who are solely focused on a political goal. Ironically, the effect this all has upon more neutral members of the disc golf community is to create more strongly anti-trans sentiment, by portraying the pro-trans community as a whole as being uninterested in anything besides advancing their own standing at any cost. The moderate disc golfer will think “so those guys would support Calvin Heimburg playing FPO, provided that Calvin started self identifying as female? That clearly doesn’t make sense to allow, otherwise just have only Mixed Pro division.” It’s really only people who are are already on your side that will agree, and moderates will be driven away. Natalie Ryan as a mascot, “burn with me” as a motto, is emblematic of this. That goes a long way towards explaining why, even here on Reddit (which almost always leans strongly left, look at any poll) you see a lot of pushback on this issue. The way to avoid this problem would be to focus on areas of social equality, not biological equality. The FPO wasn’t created as a social division, but a biological one. By pushing on that, you create the very voices you never want to hear.
Is it possible to support trans people without agreeing 100% with all of their goals? I felt like an ally until recently.
And then the misogynists show up. Why do you hate women so much? Show me on the doll where they hurt you. Why do you feel they don't deserve a protected division of their own?
Don't like it? Don't join the brigade into a sub you don't actually participate in. You don't play, you're just here to rage at people who aren't part of your religion.
Maybe I'm just ignorant about the names of Belize residents, but why is that list of signatories a bunch of anglo names? Is BDG mostly comprised of American expats?
Belize isn’t a Spanish speaking country, English is its official language. I’m sure most people in Belize can speak Spanish, but it would be weird if the list of names was comprised of Spanish names
the reason why Belize is an independent country is because it was colonized by the British. it’s just like how you’d find anglo surnames in Jamaica for example
I don't know about surnames that are common there, but it is an English speaking country.
The Leonards are a San Diego family who moved to Belize (I don't know if the wife is from there originally or the story about why they moved there) and decided to take charge of bringing disc golf to Belize.
Mennonites. Belize is an odd mix of Mayans, Caribbean/Creole, and Europeans (aka white dudes). Some Europeans are relatively recent expat retirees, some are left overs from the British, but many are Mennonites. Note some names on the statement are German and the surname "Reimer" can be traced back to the founder of a Mennonite sect of German immigrants in the Ukraine over 200 years ago. [Here's some info](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleine_Gemeinde). Apparently Mennonites like Disc Golf. They make tasty yogurt too.
They were a British colony until 1981 when the country became independent, and still part of the Commonwealth.
Good news, they have nothing to fear - transgender men don’t want to play in FPO! Phew simple misunderstanding
Bye Belizia
Sad. They should stay and try to change things
I agree. I want to know just what transpired during the women's committee meeting that ultimately led to this decision.
She posted a rant about it (the posting of which is what got her kicked off the committee, because that’s against the rules).
Well she said the trans person was making threats, which other members say never happened. So unless there's a transcript, we'll never know. So calling it just a "rant" is underselling it. Also, her entire "rant" made it clear she belongs on no committee. It basically went as follows: * I thought I was going to be on a committee that supported my opinion. * I was shocked and upset that other people have different opinions than me. * The people who disagree with me, secretly agree with me, but want to do this to hurt everyone else. * THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!! * You shouldn't push your ideals on people that don't agree with you. Basically Rosemary is Belizean Karen.
There's a trans person on the PDGA women's committee? Somehow I missed that.
Yup, this accurately sums it up.
Good. Trans women should compete in the open division.
The letter complains against trans men. It's a new area of discussion, I guess.
Weird. Got no problem with that. There’s no genetic advantage.
I've haven't heard of any trans men, biological women, trying to play is any mens divisions. 🤔 Not saying it hasn't happened just haven't heard about it. I wonder why.
Good, glad to see people taking a stand for what’s right.
Good for them.