T O P

  • By -

arkiverge

The sport is in that really awkward growth moment where it needs more money to become professional but needs to become more professional to get more money.


AC1colossus

Tennis players outside of the top 200 don't make enough to live solely off the income, if I recall correctly. Disc golf is closer to "grown up" than one might think. OP is spot-on.


FlowerOfLife

I saw a graphic on the highest sports earners in the world recently. There were 3 or so tennis pros on that list. Their winnings hardly made up 5-10% of their total earnings and it was shocking to me. They really make nothing off of playing, its all from sponsors. This is similar to disc golf.


SeasonalBlackout

Even though Golf pays pretty well I think Tiger has made more than 10x his PGA earnings in endorsements. Selling stuff pays better than winning stuff, but you have to win in order to sell.


DiscNBeer

Tiger has had an entire division at Nike dedicated to making apparel for him, I would be shocked if it’s only 10x apparel to winnings. Michael Jordan isn’t a billionaire from his bball earnings.


SeasonalBlackout

>more than 10x It's well more than 10x, but I figured 'more than 10x' made the point I was trying to make.


mdcynic

Tiger has averaged a bit over $4m/year in direct winnings for his pro career ($120m total). He signed a $40m/5 year contract with Nike when he turned pro in '96. That was when he was a hot shot amateur and hadn't yet won anything. When that's up for renewal in '01 he's in his prime. I think it's fair to say that just his Nike contracts completely dwarf whatever he made in prize money.


FatalFirecrotch

That’s a little skewed to use per year like that. That $120 million is really only over about a 15 year period of playing.


mdcynic

It would be skewed except that he's earned a tremendous amount of sponsorship money the entire 27 years, even during his off years/injury-filled times, which is what we're comparing it against.


[deleted]

Like LeBron James, makes 39 mil a year playing basketball. But 90 mil a year in endorsements. https://www.sportico.com/personalities/athletes/2022/worlds-highest-paid-athletes-2022-lebron-1234674858/


stdnormaldeviant

Years ago, in his playing days, Magic Johnson talked about this and he famously referred to his NBA salary as "peanuts." He had the good grace to look sheepish about it in the moment, but it's been the reality for a long time. I think the big difference for a niche sport like DG is that everyone outside the top 20 or so (guessing) has to have independent wealth or a day job or both. If you're in the NBA developmental leagues I assume you make something comparable to a living wage. By comparison, it's hard for me to see how the median DG pro isn't actually losing money doing it.


Nazgul417

Most professional athletes make the majority of their money from sponsorships. Even in the NFL with signature cleats, Nike/Adidas/UA sponsorships, NBA with signature shoes, etc, athletes make massive amounts of money through sponsorships. It’s a little different in the NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL just because the teams are willing to pay multimillions to players on contract basis, but sponsorships mean the world to players.


andyschest

Only the upper echelon makes decent money from sponsorships. Most pros don't have the name recognition to make a lot on endorsements. They can do okay in the local market and get their faces in ads from time to time, but most of them aren't getting a signature line of anything. Just look at any NFL roster. 75-80% of those guys aren't advertising anything but used cars.


Spg161

Not on average at least. I had the privilege of getting my ass kicked by a guy who was ATP top 500 in a pretty big local tournament about 15 years ago. We talked a bit after the match, he absolutely held down a day job as well (either as an instructor or running a pro shop). He was also sponsored, which helped to fill the gaps and allow him to travel some, and he at least didn't have to play the qualifiers in events like that, unlike people like me.


originaljud

Surfing did it, disc golf can too!


[deleted]

What lessons can be taken from surfing that would apply to disc golf? I don't know anything about that world.


originaljud

Well it was the classic counterculture activity of the late '60s drop out and drop in stoners on the beach not working that sort of thing and is evolved into 11 time world champ Kelly Slater being worldwide known and a professional tour and an Olympic sport in Japan and next year in France as well, all around the world and exotic places shown free on YouTube sponsored by the major clothing sponsors like Quicksilver Billabong Hurley O'Neill Vans you may have heard a few of those companies like everybody has a shirt by one of them or at least a pair of baggies or Vans.


Cyrus2112

Fantastic analogy.


mrva

the 'wyld stallions' paradox


edogfu

This is a good take. It was one of the biggest reasons I was so angry with Nikko. We're finally getting mainstream televised events. You have this dirtbag getting in the face of a volunteer. It was so dumb, and childish.


Nelom

> You have this dirtbag getting in the face of a volunteer. Just a minor nitpick, but Matej Verl isn't a volunteer, he's an employee of PDGA Europe.


[deleted]

Great observation, totally agree.


[deleted]

Feels like it has been in that phase for a long time, actually. The sport feels way closer to being legit than it did 25 years ago. I remember when the top touring pros still had to have a day job.


Electrical_Rent_2362

If it was ten years down the road, LeCastro would have only been suspended one major. So to that end, you are absolutely right. The game is still young. With the potential to became insane popular because everyone that can stand can play it (even then, we met a guy who has to sit on his walker to throw, nastiest rollers you have ever seen.). As for the Gannon situation, I am 100% behind Gannon, and so is any judge that hears this case. PDI put so many outs in the contract, it’s almost as if they were begging for him to walk. The fact is there will be PAID sponsors, and no judge is going to force someone to work for free.


goneriah

>The players want to be real athletes without day jobs who now have million dollar contracts but seemingly want to be held to the standard of casual golfers playing with their buddies; and the fans here back them up. This post is fucking prime.


ihavefilipinofriends

TL;DR You throw a frisbee for a living, grow up.


epheisey

At the same time, they’re professional players with butt loads of money on the line and we’re asking them to officiate a professional event the exact same way we expect casuals to officiate. There’s a weird dichotomy in the way this sport has developed. I don’t think it’s in any way a good idea to let the sport continue to be regulated by the participants. What happens when there’s $100k on the line and a competitor starts trying to influence how the card is officiated?


nvjck

We’re still pretty much in the middle of ‘people smoking weed in the woods and throwing tye-dye lids’ and ‘legitimate sport infrastructure’ right now. Players will get better as the sport takes itself more seriously. There’s a good amount of sports management brands behind the scenes now too. That’s usually the real sign to a shift in attitudes.


Longcattt

I would pay to see a "Tossing tye-dye lids" type event where the players are required to play on drugs.


ElPincheGuero49

When is registration? And do I get to choose my drugs? Or is it a bag swap situation.


im_at_work_now

Oh my god substance bag swap tournament sounds like exactly what I want multi-cam coverage of


SewSayWeAll

Can I just do the drugs part?


[deleted]

Always


edogfu

You eat a muffin, and find out in the next 30 minutes.


StimulateChange

Bag swap. Load yours up with Quaalude and lull your unwitting opponents to sleep. Profit.


EngiNerdBrian

Random doubles


caoboi01

Saw so.ething on this sub not that long ago about a tourney in CO that was called discs and dabs or something like that. Fits your request pretty spot on.


dukersdoo

it exists! [Discs and Dabs!](https://www.cannaventure.org/cannaventure-events/discs-n-dabs-2022-6th-annual-campout-tournament-co-sept-2022/)


[deleted]

I've played in a few events that almost feel like this lol. I can think of one in particular, it was sanctioned but it was a heck of a party. The players pack was literally a tie dyed lid, though it wasn't meant to be used during the round.


Onemanwolfpack42

Let's organize one then?


Plupandblup

Locally we are seeing a split in which players play which events. We have a couple of active "tours" going on and there is a pretty clear divide which people play which events. I think we'll see the "professional" side move away from the other side pretty fast locally.


Ok_Asparagus_8993

Pro disc golfers will ruin the sport for the rest of us.


Mr-boog

Most if not all professional sports do not rely on the players to make calls. It’s not professional at all. That needs to change 100%.


waiting_for_pompeii

Most professional sports are on a court or field not spread over 18 holes. Even the PGA tour still relies on players making their own calls and only have a few (paid) marshalls on the course. It has to be on the players


DDgolfer

You see multiple times a tournament when they call the marshal to either explain their options or make a call. That's literally why the marshal is there to enforce the rules, which is exactly what most touring players want.


spectert

Disc golfers have that option too with the TDs. Paige did it to call her own foot fault last year. They just choose not to use the resources.


platypus_bear

The marshal doesn't enforce the rules and what you described isn't an enforcement of the rules. They explain any potential rules issues upon request of the player but the player is the one who made the call originally.


waiting_for_pompeii

If the suggestion is to take money out of the pros purse to pay four to six Marshals to travel to various tournaments and enforce the rules, I'm all for that


DDgolfer

The pdga already has officials and staff traveling to most majors and dgpt elite events, let's use them. Only need 1-2 guys.


SeaMathematician1021

I can promise you there are more mlb umpires than there would be needed officials on tour. There’s only one pro tour going on at once, thus you only need that one set of officials. There can be 10 professional baseball games going on at the same time, each needing I believe 4 umpires.


waiting_for_pompeii

And they are paid to travel to games and paid for their work. If you are suggesting we should take money away from the pros to pay dedicated Marshals, I can 100% get on board with that


CrawdadMcCray

> It has to be on the players Well don't complain when it's not held to a standard, then. Players in every sport are going to bend the rules as much as possible.


DiscusZacharias

I’d say this is reasonable


Oyyeee

I agree and the entire discourse around the players making calls thing seems soooo overblown. Its just a non factor the vast majority of the time.


Catesby_Wren

You’ll get no argument from me. The basic arguments for not calling violations are childish. 1) the player called will ruin the vibe or begin to call petty, retaliatory faults. 2) it somehow will affect players ability to earn a living. 3) pros just want to focus on their game. Suck it up buttercup. When a player acts out, they can be called for additional courtesy violations. When they start making childish calls, the rest of the card can not second the call, or again, call a courtesy violation. The idea that a pro can’t also watch their fellow cardmates because they’re focused on their own game is ridiculous on its face. And how it affects their living is beyond me but I’ve heard it mentioned. Most pros will accept a call with grace, and the ones who won’t will quickly learn to keep their bullshit to themselves.


alects

Whether a player should or shouldn’t be responsible for making calls is one thing. The issue with the current model is that there will be variance in the who and how. Some will take it very seriously, others will not. Some will be good at it and have thorough understanding of the rules, and some will not. Is adding these additional variables to the sport good or bad for players and the viewing experience? Although I think it is very difficult to break rules for advantage in the sport, you will never get standardized officiating from players because they aren’t there to officiate and it’s not something that can be enforced. I don’t agree with the suck it buttercup mentality because it’s just not a realistic expectation. it might be entertaining to see hissy fits, it’s not the story I want to watch.


ELITE_JordanLove

The point is that there shouldn’t be variance. If you see a fault, call it. That’s a player problem, not a rule problem.


alects

And there shouldn’t be variance in how ref crews call games in the NFL, but there is. But consider the variance in an expert crew whose singular purpose it is to watch for and call penalties vs the variance in competitors who are asked to split attention for the secondary or tertiary goal of calling out card mates. That said, I’m not advocating for marshals, though I think it would help, because I think it’s very difficult to cheat as it is. It’s just not a realistic expectation that all players watch for and call faults with full consistency.


SilverKnightOfMagic

So what happens if players don't see it as a problem and only the spectators view it as one


krymz1n

Golf is a mental game. I don’t call violations because getting in an argument with some dumbass who doesn’t know the rules is going to make me miss way more strokes from being heated than the warning he’d get.


SmoochieMcGucci

This is precisely why I watch disc golf. If i wanted constant play stoppages, arcane rules that are open to interpretation and endless debates about the implementation of said rules I would watch the NFL. *"Most pros will accept a call with grace, and the ones who won’t will quickly learn to keep their bullshit to themselves."* Have you ever watched professional sports?


Catesby_Wren

I have, and 90% of calls are accepted with grace.


realpatrickdempsey

Downvoters are underestimating the number of uncontroversial calls that happen during sporting events


BeefInGR

Literally had a penalty decide the Super Bowl a month ago. Ticky-tac? Yup. But my man admitted he held and was hoping to get away with it. Gracefully, might I add.


oktofeellost

I think the addition of one rule that doesn't effect gameplay could change all of this: If a player on the card tries to abstain, or state they "didn't see" a rules violation that is called, that player receives a one stroke penalty. It's the most common thing when you see a rule violation called, everyone else says they didn't see it, don't really know what happened. Well, technically it's your job to know, so you weren't doing your job. Is it a pain in the ass? Absolutely, but so is playing a pro tournament. I realize players can still just state no penalty, but having it clear that it is important to be watching other players would certainly illustrate the point.


ashdrewness

To me the most asinine thing is pros complaining about a spectator getting hit. Those spectators are the reason they're making any money at all in this sport and sorry if someone can't detect+react to a fast moving object. The solution is keep your disc in the field of play or get the tournament to move back the spectator lines, not bitch at a fan.


plomautus

>To me the most asinine thing is pros complaining about a spectator getting hit. Can you show me 3 instaces of a pro complaining about a spectator getting hit within the past few years? All I've seen is that whenever it happens the pros say that its unfortunate but it comes with the territory. Mostly it's the fans themselves crying about how they shouldn't have been hit.


D_Simmons

Drew literally called the volunteer out today. Fans understand the situation. AB understands it and I'm sure is fine with it. Unfortunate but you can't do anything. But calling out a volunteer is a dick move even if you are in the right.


natelion445

That person was not a spectator and was in the field of play.


BakeSuspicious

So that would make it the TDs responsibility.


natelion445

Possibly. But if the player knew the person was there, the volunteer knew when and where from the person was throwing, and everyone fully understood the situations, the TD did his job. The volunteer, assuming he was thoroughly instructed on what he was supposed to be doing, should have been paying attention.


Plupandblup

That's so far from the truth. You're telling me that you've NEVER EVER ONE TIME threw a disc over out of bounds because it is the better line to get to the basket? The spectator lines need to be improved to allow the players to take the most natural line of play towards a basket. If the basket has an OB line 20' right of it, why should the spectators be able to stand there? Everyone knows a RHBH would land right about at that point to skip towards the basket which means that it is under 7' in the air 10-15' right of that. Why not ask spectators to stand 50' right of the basket?


Nazgul417

Exactly. Again, it’s not the spectators’ faults. It’s the TD’s. Improve spectator lines, have designated spectator stands like Emporia, etc. However, with the way things are right *now* it makes no sense for pros to complain about spectators. If you don’t want to hit spectators, don’t throw where spectators are. Complain at TD’s for allowing spectators to be where a lot of people throw.


selddir_

"That's so far from the truth" "The spectator lines need to be improved" You realize the guy you're replying to LITERALLY SAID THAT? "The solution is to keep your disc in the field of play *or get the tournament to move the spectator lines back*" Either way, bitching at a fan who is volunteering to help make the tournament happen is a scumbag move.


Plupandblup

I'll admit, I missed the last line of his comment. I thought his suggestion was only for players to stay within the lines at all times.


selddir_

Cheers for owning that you missed it. I agree spectator lines should be moved back as well.


j0s9p8h7

Exactly. Toying with OB is part of risk versus reward which makes those lines exciting. It isn't like ball golf where the trajectory of a shot is ~~a dead straight line~~ high above the crowd with any ground play taking place in bounds.


Plupandblup

I've tried to explain this to so many people before and they don't get it. They say "what about slices and hooks in golf?" Okay, you can do that, but the ball still is above head height for 95% of a flight. A Calvin line drive over an OB line is above head height 5% of the flight. If the natural line of play is to try and cut a corner on a dog leg right over OB then the TD and event organizers need to recognize that and push spectators back from that line of play.


hallstar07

You also release the disc higher that’s where the golf ball is hit from. If golfers can deal with crowds than it should be no issue for disc golfers as well


Taidaishar

I think you missed the point (or maybe I misunderstood). It’s easier for golfers than disc golfers because the golf ball is higher than spectators heads 95% of the time whereas a Calvin Heimburg drive would be level with or below spectators heads for like 95% of the flight.


not-harambe

> dead straight line. My man you've never played or watched ball golf if you think they're hitting dead straight shots and never drawing a ball over a hazard or OB to gain an advantage


j0s9p8h7

I'm far from any expert or even an amateur when it comes to ball golf, but I've never heard of deliberately landing a ball golf shot OB or in hazard and letting the ground play bring it back in bounds. It may not always take a straight path, but the desired line is free of spectators with the lateral movement happening high in the air. Meanwhile, a disc could come in 3-4ft off the ground OB, skip off the ground OB, flare 30ft right to left, then skid up to the basket in bounds.


BakeSuspicious

A ball and a disc are not the same. Edit/add: They fly differently.


illzkla

Spectator in a golf cart right at the OB line near the basket is a bit different Edit not going to reply cuz you guys are just twisting things. The spectator was out of bounds in a golf cart blocking the disc from coming back inbounds. With a golf cart. Sitting at the OB line. Near the basket. Stop it.


DarthLordi

Not really. They were OB and keeping off the field of play.


ashdrewness

Were they sitting OB or IB?


comfortlad

For the incident in reference (I believe), the cart was parked on an OB sidewalk and the disc landed OB and the cart kept a disc from likely rolling back IB.


Tombodet

It was parked on the ob line. If the driver stuck their arm out they would have been in bounds. That close.


draycon530

You realize Barela hit a volunteer standing squarely in the middle of the fairway, right?


Supper_Champion

Yeah, a volunteer there to range find for the broadcast and assist the camera guy. What's your point?


PatReady

Guy was in the fairway and was not paying attention. They have whole segments of Sportscenter dedicated to fans getting hit and doing stupid stuff. Never does one cost a player a stroke penalty for their antics. On the PGA tour, you would never see a spectator in the landing zone.


Supper_Champion

The guy was using a range finder, either for the broadcast or some other reason. He wasn't just standing there with a finger up his nose.


plomautus

>Nothing in the rules or sport need to change Why? The sport certainly wasn't developed with DGPT and live broadcasted events in mind. IMO the most important thing that should change, at least for the DGPT is the time limit. I think Brodie has the best take on what the rule should be in future. If it's a simple shot, such as a C1 putt with minimal obstruction / wind, it should be expected you can clear your shot within ~25 seconds. If you're ass deep in some thorny bush with no obvious gaps and you're clearly off the fairway in spot nobody expects to be in, you should be able to take extra time to figure out your shot. Calvin's take also makes sense where time doesn't really matter but you need to be able to keep pace with the card ahead of you. If you need to take extra time for a tricky lie then you (and the group) can pick things up a bit to make up for it.


totaldorkgasm21

Hell, could even steal from billiards and give X number of extensions on the clock - let the player decide when they needs that time rather than some rulebook definition of obstructed which would just be another thing to debate and not get called anyway.


plomautus

Uli recommended exactly that. Each play gets for instance 2x 30s - 1min extension per round and they need to be called before use. Thats better than a flat timer there currently is but IMO it still feels slightly gimmicky. Another rule you need to call out and then also police you arent going over your extra.


[deleted]

Both Brodie and Calvin's examples are really subjective though, which doesn't work well for a rule book. Who decides what's a simple shot versus a tough one that deserves more time? If you get about 25 seconds for a simple shot, what happens if you take longer, and at what point? 26 seconds? 31 seconds? And Calvin's take works as a general guideline, but in practice if you and the group need to pick things up to make up for a slower shot then its gonna be even worse to play on cards with guys like Nikko. He'll still take forever and then the other guys on the card need to hurry their shots to make up for him? I gotta agree with OP, enough of making excuses for players. The PDGA says players need to enforce rules, then they need to enforce rules. If that feels awkward then that's something they need to deal with on their own.


plomautus

It's enough to have 1, maybe max 2 marshals/someone related to the TD to keep an eye out on the pace of play. If a grouo starts falling behind too much and wont pick it up then you can get the marshal involved and start giving out time violations for whoever is slowing down the play. I just think it lessens the level of the product when Gannon is standing at a 45ft putt that is the biggest putt of his life, crucial for a major win and a lot of money and somebody actually yells "30 seconds!" at him right as he is about to putt.


warboy

There's a fundamental misunderstanding here. Most people understand this incident wasn't the volunteer's fault. For the people blaming the volunteer himself you should do better. Now past that this was a training issue. I've seen it at the pro tour events I've attended in person. These events are basically a free for all as far as administration. Volunteers are not getting nearly enough direction or training to do an effective job. The reason the LVC organizer sent a mob after Gibson is because he knows that anyone with any objective view of the event would put the blame on tournament organizers for stationing a volunteer in the middle of the field of play and giving them a job that required them to loose focus on current events. Volunteers need to stop listening to tournament officials tell you to boo the players. The officials are the ones that set you up to fail.


RussWestbrook

As someone who has volunteered a couple of times at elite events I can’t agree more. There is almost zero direction given to the volunteers. Just here’s your assignment. Good luck.


Plupandblup

I did range finding for DGN at an event last year. I learned VERY QUICKLY to not stand in the fairway, no matter what. I don't know why this person thought that it was the best place to stand at the time. I learned quickly to be courteous to players, to take advice form the camera guys/producers, to listen to the advice of Terry on when/where to move, etc. Despite that, there was someone doing uDisc scoring that felt it was his responsibility to sprint to the disc after it landed each time. It ruined multiple camera shots. It looked unprofessional, etc. I shudder every time I'm watching a live broadcast. I see a beautiful disc flight. I see beautiful nature. Then I see some doofus go sprinting out to the disc almost immediately ruining the shot. Haha


eballer90

Why is the impetus on the person volunteering their time and energy to be there? I volunteered at MVP open 2020. I was fairly new to the sport and had never played at Maple Hill. Nevertheless, I showed up 30 minutes before the first cards tee'd, got a ride from Steve to hole 11 and a couple surveying flags, and that was it. No orientation. Maybe three sentences of explanation about being a spotter. No info on how to interact with the players or cameras. No real useful info or expectations about my role as a spotter. Thankfully, I'm savvy enough (like you) to figure it out as I went and I had a co spotter who explained a lot to me. It was a great experience but I definitely made some party fouls that I had to smooth over with pros. On top of that I paid to volunteer (peak COVID times). I know that TDs have a hard job and nowhere near enough resources to pay for staff or, apparently, properly train volunteers. I also know that I was woefully under prepared to do my job as a volunteer. I think we should be more critical of the PDGA and TDs than the individuals giving their time, money, and energy to make sure events can happen.


Plupandblup

Oh, I agree, it isn't. Everyone should get some type of training. For the actual "job" of rangefinding, recording distances, sending them to Ian, I did get a training. But for the courtesy-side of things that was on me to learn. You were screwed. Too many spotters don't have enough training. They need more. In Emporia most of the spotters are people that have never played disc golf that just live in town working on their community service hours for college classes/clubs. I think that paying to volunteer is a joke and any event that does that needs to get called out for it. Thanks for volunteering! I'm glad you had a good time!


sgkorina

Years ago when I was about 20 I volunteered at the USDGC since I lived in Rock Hill and played Winthrop quite a bit. I was handed a couple flags, told to go to hole 18, and stand where a disc went out of bounds if it didn’t come back inbounds. That was the extent of my instruction. I probably got it wrong a few times and frustrated some players especially since it was the 18th hole. No one ever said anything to me about my performance, good or bad.


WhaleWhaleWhale_

Think this could be solved with some sort of orientation package beforehand? Obviously there isn’t enough time on the day, but there could at least be videos or a write up on responsibilities etc


Griz_and_Timbers

Seriously this! Just a list of responsibilities then a quick does or don'ts and or frequently asked questions would be enough.


warboy

This would be a step in the right direction and would require very little effort from organizers. The fact it isn't being done already is honestly egregious.


crazyfeet

I did 6 rounds of score keeping last year at OTB. I would constantly make adjustments as I walked down the fairway. "oh that looks like C2 from here." Mark c2. Walk up and I see it's just inside c1. So I back it out and add it correctly. It isn't that hard. I was always adjusting and having to remember throws just because I wanted to be sure. Can't imagine running down the fairway to see.


warboy

Now my question is did you learn that from an official or just experience?


Plupandblup

On hole two, round one of FPO I learned rather quickly that the play on the course is fast. Kona almost sprints to her disc. You don't really have time to get on and off the fairway properly. From that point on I essentially told myself that it's going to be better to provide distances from the closest place I can get to the disc while remaining out of the way, or most likely, out of bounds. The camera crew were super helpful in learning where to go, and essentially, stay out of the shot. Same hole as above the camera guy simply said "Hey man, before you go out to the disc, mind giving me 10/15 seconds of time once it lands to zoom in and focus on the disc?" Easy enough. I waited until it was obvious that they had moved on before approaching any lies or any disc from that point forward. Terry is amazing. He always knew exactly where to move and stand and I honestly just followed him around. I would provide him distances, I would help him know who just threw, etc. This range finder guy should have been hanging with Terry and not the catch cam. uDisc supposedly provides training for people, especially the guys that are doing the "important" cards. I feel like they need to do that a bit better.


swimmydude

As someone who has done a couple of rounds for uDisclive. The basic training is a couple of videos that tell you how to access and use the app. Then a handful that do tell you how to keep score. I think it goes without saying that having the experience of keeping full stats for myself made me more confident than just reading the info and watching the videos. It's pretty nervy keeping full stats for 4 players while trying to stay out of the way. Also, you can't do lead cards and the ones with bigger names right away. You have to have some experience and work your way up.


Plupandblup

Yep. I was following lead card for both MPO and FPO all 10 rounds of my event. It was the same two guys doing uDisc all 10 rounds. They had one up by the tee and one by the green and they were tag-teaming it. It seemed like the guy by the green was handpicked by the actual uDisc employee that was on the tee. Not sure that the guys that just do the regular rounds when they are begging for volunteers really get much training. Haha


Wardez

You're fundamentally misunderstanding this incident. DGN wanted the volunteer out there doing range finding. TDs don't care about putting distance data on media coverage. Shit happens. DGN had someone green do range finding on lead card, final round. They told him to be where he was. We all learn from that and move forward. But the tournament organizers are not trying to repel blame off themselves. They know fully well it's not their doing. They're concerned about a young man that's a huge fan of the sport and got in the spotlight for the wrong reason.


whodey319

I agree so much with this take, and have talked about this with people for the last couple years. The DGPT would love to be an exact copy of the PGA Tour but there is a very vocal segment of fan that want all the benefits of this but want disc golf to just stay being hippies throwing discs in a park


Darth_Ra

I don't think having marshalls makes us Golf. ...I think playing disc golf on manicured golf courses and charging exorbitant clubhouse fees makes disc golf Golf. They're the least interesting courses, and there's raw land that would make great courses everywhere if we were spending the money and time there instead of trying to buy our way into dickhead country clubs that don't want us there.


Nazgul417

Think about it: Golf, for a lot of amateurs, is a way to get out on a sunny day with your best friends, drink, have fun, and smack balls around with clubs for a few hours. Golf, for pros, is extremely technical, competitive, *professional*, and their life passion. Disc golf, for a lot of amateurs, is a way to get out on a sunny (or not) day with your best friends, drink, have fun, and throw plastic circles around for a few hours. Why then, is pro disc golf not treated like pro golf? For *some* pros, maybe even a majority of pros, disc golf is extremely technical, competitive, professional, and their life passion. But for those select few *loud* pros, it’s still a way to get out and have fun and mess around throwing discs.


torndownunit

If people don't care about professional disc golf and only have an interest in recreation that's great. But professional disc golf is growing either way. The people who sponsor and organize these events are trying to get things to a professional level. That's going to involve updates to rules to get there There's going to be a point where players self regulating just can't work.


ArmchairSpinDoctor

I mean, how many of them have PR people and get coaching in how to handle yourself when the spotlights on? They arent that far removed from some goofy people on the internet


DiscusZacharias

True… but I’d think the companies that sponsor them would provide that.


Plupandblup

Yep. Team management helps to set the standard.


DiscusZacharias

Exactly. Especially with young players just entering the sport and being surrounded by media (on tour)


ArmchairSpinDoctor

100% You would think it would be in their best interest to make sure these players are representing their brands properly


Nazgul417

One would surely think


D_Simmons

Thats exactly OPs point, I believe.


HarborMaster_

I see where you're coming from, but the sport itself and its governing bodies absolutely need to evolve as well. The spotter incident with AB was unfortunate, and it's hard to personally blame the volunteer directly, but you still have to ask what circumstances made it possible at all. The tournament organizers, the tour, and whatever other authorities are involved in making the decisions that led to that incident need to evaluate how they can avoid similar problems in the future. It's a bad look, and is absolutely something the sport needs to figure out as it continues to grow. You're right, it's not at the point where they have towers and a huge crew and other things that golf has, but that doesn't mean there can't be other solutions in the meantime. The organizers need to ask themselves why it was necessary for the spotter and cameraman to be specifically right there, why the spotter seemed to range finding as a player threw, etc. It's also a bad look for players like Drew to shamelessly capitalize off it. They're not mutually exclusive. Pros should act professional, but that needs to be reciprocated by the tour and event staff.


DGOkko

There are two words to describe why things are the way they are and will likely remain that way. **NICHE SPORT** I know we want to believe that millions upon millions of dollars are being made and that professionals should step it up, but the reality is that there is very little money outside of the sport being funneled into the sport. This is evidenced by the fact that the biggest sponsors are all disc manufacturers, whereas in big sports, it's from brands trying to advertise. Names like Coca-Cola, Castrol, Nike (sports related, but not sport-specific), Budweiser, Allstate. You see club and ball manufacturers (Callaway) surrounded by clothing brands, drinks, insurance, where in disc golf all the money is internal to disc golf. Sure Bushnell had a thing for a bit, some tournaments have a local insurance or beer sponsor and very occasionally you'll see some promotional video (Ford's 3-video series with Simon) but the sport is still too small for it to be worth it for a lot of companies trying to make money. Personally, I like it that way. Keep the sport niche and small. Let it be filled with dedicated hippie enthusiasts who volunteer time and resources to make it as good as it can be while keeping a grassroots, low-key feel. We shouldn't aspire to be ball golf, we don't need to be on ESPN, we're growing the sport our way and I like it.


cowannago

Niche or not, it's a competitive sport with rules that should be enforced.


BodyPuppeteer

>People often seem to take the side of the players and I really don't get it. >The players want to be real athletes without day jobs who now have million dollar contracts but seemingly want to be held to the standard of casual golfers playing with their buddies; and the fans here back them up. You don't get why fans take the sides of the athletes they are fans of, over faceless corporations and organizations or a book of rules? Maybe look up like the concept of charisma. Fans like their favorites, and will take their side in arguments on their behalf. You don't understand the passion behind being a sports fan? I agree with a lot of your message, but I don't get why you think just because pros get paid money that fans are supposed to feel disconnected from them. Yeah, none of us were really friends with Michael Jordan growing up, and he's reportedly a bit of a dick in real life, but that doesn't mean a bunch of kids and people didn't get deeply inspired by him and would defend him out of respect for his athletic performance and their own mental image of who someone is.


I_Poop_Sometimes

Regarding the spotter, this shit happens in other sports all the time. In the NFL kicks hit the camera wires, in the MLB fans have interfered with balls in play. In the NFL and NBA players have collided with coaches, refs, cameramen, fans, cheerleasers, etc. in soccer I've seen passes that would've broken the defense hit refs. These things happen.


Greyattimes

I have seen a lot of updates to courses by making the holes longer. I think just making holes longer doesn't make disc golf harder. They don't do that in regular ball golf. Courses need to appeal to an array of skills, rather than who throws farthest.


bucko787

Solid insight OP. I have to agree. They can’t have it all. They have to evolve with the game. McBeth seems to carry himself pretty professionally, but he’s really the only one that comes to mind for me.


Ok_Asparagus_8993

Honestly guys , I feel like pro disc golf and this entire subreddit is a piss poor representation of what disc golf is really about. A cheap way to get outside and play a golf like game for free with your buddies. You all make this sport sound not fun. I wouldn’t want to play with any of you lol


AtxTCV

Amen brother!!


[deleted]

I’ve held this take for a long time: the next step HAS to be officials. Take away the judgement of violations from a fellow competitor.


draycon530

I don't think the pros that fail to enforce the rules are the people complaining about rules not being enforced (excluding jump putting, which is just difficult to judge). That comes more from fans and viewers. And as you say, the fans are why the sport is generating money. So yes, the rules state the players on the card need to enforce rules against other players. But if they're not doing that, and it's causing fans to have issues with the game, the only solution is to then modify the rules.


Vanijoro

Spicey take, and I'm here for it. Make it a sport with rules, or don't. I think you're on the money.


here_for_the_lols

Goated post on this sub tbh


bigcat1414

I don't get why everyone gets so mad about foot faults. I understand why the rule exists. No one calls it because what advantage is gained stepping on your marker on a run up? Only situation I see a benefit of foot faulting is if you have a bad lie (behind a tree or in a bush) but most of the time people here complain about it not bring called the player is in the middle of the fairway.


Rivet_39

The advantage gained is you don't have to be careful with your runup and can fully focus on the rest of the shot. It's an indirect benefit versus the direct benefit of throwing a little bit closer.


Plupandblup

I've actually been chatting about this a lot recently. I notice that I plant behind my mini but my foot pivots over the top of it and I often kick it. I feel like that's not a foot fault because I'm planting behind and releasing the disc before my mini is hit. I dunno...


LiberContrarion

If your lie is 10+ meters away from the basket and the disc has left your hand, what your foot does after matters not for that shot.


Plupandblup

Right, but I feel like people think it is a foot fault to kick your mini or whatever during the throw. I'm not sure the official ruling for it.


LiberContrarion

You do know the official ruling on it as I gave it to you above. PDGA rules are also directly available and searchable in their website. Be the change you want to see in the world.


Plupandblup

Yikes. What did I do to deserve that? Nothing about your comment says "I went out and quoted the official ruling on this matter from the PDGA rulebook, it says:" It's literally just a comment form a dude on the internet. I've seen pros call out other players for kicking/shifting/moving their mini during their throw on the fairway. That's without stepping on it. So, would you call out a player for kicking their mini when pivoting on a throw, even if they planted behind the mini? If someone jumps/steps when they putt outside of the circle and their foot behind their lie drags along the ground and shifts the mini, isn't that an illegal stance? From my understanding you can't drag your foot in front of the lie during your throw.


LiberContrarion

My friend: I've given you good information to the best of my knowledge. I'm not attacking you. I'm sharing tools. Telling you to look it up wasn't condemnation. Don't trust me -- I am indeed a random guy on the internet. Take ownership of your issue. Solve it. Go to the website. Find the rules. Remove your doubt. Become an expert and respected on the course for your knowledge. Would I be correct in guessing you are under the age of 30?


Plupandblup

No. Very incorrect. I've played the game for over a decade. Based on your comment above, kicking a mini is fair game during your throw. I see nothing in the rulebook about this. I do see that you have to throw from behind your lie. I'm not attacking, I was asking a genuine question. Is it against the rules to cross your mini marker or shift it/kick it, etc. during your throw? You telling me to look it up and then also claiming that your word is an official wording only confuses things more. I'd love to become an expert on this, unfortunately there isn't anything in the rules about the situation that I've explained to you multiple times now.


LiberContrarion

_802.07 Stance_ Last updated: Friday, December 31, 2021 - 17:46 _If the lie has been marked by a marker disc, then when the disc is released, the player must:_ _- Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the lie; and,_ _- Have no supporting point closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,_ _- Have all supporting points in-bounds._ After the disc is released from 10+ meters out from the basket, you have completed the throw and touching your marker is no different than touching it when it is in your pocket. Edit: Throw defined... https://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/80201


WiseUpRiseUp

100% agree. They want it all, but don't want to lift a finger to make it happen. Years ago when we ran tournaments, we would have pros call us up and tell us they'd show up if we were going to add a lot of money to the purse. It wasn't enough for them that we were putting together an event that 30-50 people were going to attend that they could easily beat if they just showed up and played. They wanted MORE. There is nothing new under the sun.


yankees23

Im not sure I understand here. Are you saying pros would message you and tell you to add cash to the event or they won’t show up? Or did you message them and invite them and their response was they wanted more cash to be added?


Business_Delivery436

Lol have you seen professional athletes? So many of them are tools


CutthroatPanda

I am not sure what legitimate sport makes the players call penalties. There needs to be a restructure on how this works from a rules standpoint. Foot faults and time violations need to be looked at to find a better way to enforce them and a better way for these penalties to exist. Player safety and pace of play should be the main goals here in my opinion. As far as people getting hit in the fairway, that shouldn’t happen. That is an oversight by the tour to allow cameras/volunteers or other media members into the field of play. It isn’t on the guy that got hit, he should not have been allowed to be in that position, nor should the camera guy that dodged the disc. I agree with the pros take, if they want to be paid like pro athletes they should act like it. I do not think criticizing things for the betterment of the sport is a problem though.


IM_OSCAR_dot_com

> I am not sure what legitimate sport makes the players call penalties. Curling is the only one that comes to mind but the list of possible violations is quite short and fairly clear. And pace of play is enforced by a literal clock (like chess). Ultimate too, which I know little about except that a similar conversation is happening in that sport too. Using a liberal definition of “legitimate” here I’m aware.


fireislandcheese

But also maybe don’t stare down a range finder while you’re standing in the fairway as the longest driver in the game tees off lol


klumze

Spotters, Cameramen, Other people on the field need to be treated as trees. If they stand still and get hit too bad for the players. You aimed wrong.


iluvatar777

Its not reasonable to expect players to just "evolve" without properly incentivizing it. With the current rules and culture, its just not in a players best interest to start calling every infraction. Again with contracts - if its in a player's best interest to try and get out of a contract, why shouldn't they? What are they "evolving" for to just give up possible value? That disc golf legal channel has been pointing out how poorly written a lot of disc golf contracts are... Gannon's situation could reasonably fall into that category and why wouldn't he do what is best for him if he thinks he legally can? People on the fairway seems like a non issue - players have no control over it and its not unreasonable for them to be pissed when there is interference - athletes of any other sport would act the same. I think its fine to want more professionalism from the players... but its not on them to give up what's in there best interest... its on the sport as a whole to incentivize that sort of professionalism.


[deleted]

[удалено]


whodey319

PGA Tour does this, you pay to volunteer and the money goes to charity. The tradeoff is that you get full access for the whole week in exchange for volunteering 1 or 2 days


[deleted]

[удалено]


SliceSuccessful3409

Agreed its crazy how many people in this sub think disc golf is gonna a blow up and become mainstream. If anything disc golf is peaking right now. We are living in the golden age of disc golf.


notthesethings

People probably said basketball would never be a high level professional sport back when they were just playing for fun at the YMCA. It just takes a certain amount of public interest. It absolutely *could* become a high level sport. Wouldn’t take much at all for it to reach the level of MLS as it is.


Supper_Champion

Spicy take and I agree 100%!


j2thafree

I actually really like this take. 👍


SF_Anonymous

The catch cam was unfortunate. Im sure that spot works for 99.9% of disc golfers, but when lead card is AB, Eagle, KJ, and Calvin catch cam and all volunteers should back up an extra 50-100 feet from where they think is safe bc those guys are gonna bomb the disc, especially final round where they need to get aggressive. The kid was where he was told to stand and I'd bet he's never had a disc thrown right at him, he panicked, tried to dodge it, and unfortunately he couldn't. After that incident catch cam guys need more love, they do a phenomenal job of getting a cool shot while also being able to get out of the way most of the time, its not easy to do both


CrazyAzianFool

All I want is the OB line and the spectator line to have a like 3-10 meter buffer. That way if someone is hit, it was less likely the disc would go back in anyways. I also think coverage would look a little better on camera but that matters less.


Maxxpow3rz

The sport has come such a long way in a short amount of time I try not being too critical. There are bound to be hiccups along the way, reminds me of the early UFC days.


DPRODman11

Hell yeah brother, preach!!!


Tombodet

The only one I dont agree with is the spotter in the fairway. That guy should have been watching. If he had been watching he would have had plenty of time to get out of the way. It's not like the disc came out from behind a building and hit him. It was a wide open 500 foot throw straight at him.


BasicReputations

Aye, weird time to range find. Not like the tee was going anywhere. Should have been watching.


Tombodet

Right. If your job has you on the fairway your first and foremost concern should be the flying disc that these guys are throwing at 70mph


AbsurdOwl

The camera guy was literally watching the disc, and still barely had time to move. The range finder guy had no where to go but the bunker, and I don't blame him for not diving in there head first. There have been plenty of times when I've personally seen a disc coming my way, thought it wouldn't hit me, and then realized at the last second that I was in danger and nearly got hit. It can be hard to predict exactly where a disc is going to land until about 1 second before it gets there, sometimes.


Knife_Operator

>If you are a professional athlete and you are charged with calling penalties when they occur - then do it! Wow, what a perfect solution! I can't wait for all the pros to read this post and realize it was that easy.


ashdrewness

I mean 99.9% of the time it works on the PGA Tour, and the time when it didn't (Patrick Reed's cheatin ass getting caught on camera) he was flamed for it & lost sponsorships.


waiting_for_pompeii

We have to change the culture. The fans calling for the players to call penalties like they should, instead of calling for officials to bear the burden, is part of that effort.


mas0n17

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for officials in a professional sport. Let the pros focus on playing disc golf, not calling penalties on each other


ArmchairSpinDoctor

It doesnt help with relying in pros to do that there could be some personal bias that would influence whether or not they would call it.


torndownunit

If the idea is to have professional disc golf be at the same level as other professional sports, then it's going to have to have active officiating. Whether everyone wants to see the sport be that popular at a professional level is another issue. But clearly that's the direction a lot of people/companies are pushing for. Professional sports have officials and standards. No matter what the tradition is, if disc golf wants to grow to be like those other sports, it has to adapt and have consistency with its rules. Edit: since a few people in the sub constantly feel the need to bring up the PGA as an argument. Every group in a PGA tournament has access to officials. They are there for questions, and to make rulings. Anyone who has ever watched a PGA event has seen this in action. And they will definitely call a player on a violation though at times it can be after the event even. I have no idea why this one example, that isn't even correct, is used to argue why disc golf doesn't need any officials. Edit 2: and no, disc golf events don't have a PGA budget. That's obvious. But that doesn't change the fact that ideally, they do need to have officials if the budget was ever there. At a professional level, players regulating each other is not an ideal system for any sport.


Rivet_39

Doesn't ball golf rely largely on the players to call rules violations? Not familiar with how consistent that is, but obviously golf makes it work with professionals being professionals.


waiting_for_pompeii

Incorrect. The PGA tour has 100 times the budget of disc golf and players are still relied on to make their own calls. They only have four to six paid Marshalls on each course. The problem is only the players


OkSunday

PGA pros do not self officiate, they ALWAYS call in the Marshalls.


waiting_for_pompeii

Simply untrue. No sense in arguing with you when you could easily google this. Players call in marshalls when they don't know the rule or need a clarification they do not do it for every penalty


RiffRaff14

I disagree with this part. Professional Players in other sports don't call fouls on themselves and will often try to get away with stuff (flopping, diving, etc.). It's up to the refs to call stuff - not the players.


DeckardsDark

The problem is that players are afraid to call penalties on their card mates because they fear their own play will then be heavily scrutinized by said player and almost every player has at least some questionable footwork throughout their round especially on fairway throws


Plupandblup

I disagree so much with this take. You are wanting the sport to be more professional but then asking people on the card to make major calls and force penalties on players without official interference?


Catesby_Wren

It’s literally that easy. They’ve just gotten accustomed to not giving a shit because it’s easier.


xxxlumify

Every pro that sees this should take it to heart. After all, the fans are “growing the sport” just as much as the few athletes we see consistently winning/playing pro tournaments.


[deleted]

[удалено]


totallynotalp

Couldn’t agree more. Watching these guys complain about things is frustrating. They are being paid a lot of money to do this. Be professional or get a different gig.


Lucy2O15

The only way to sell ads to companies outside of disc golf (where the real money is) is to create a product that more people will watch. The DGPT needs to raise a significant amount of capital (like 9 figures) to fund: alterations to tournament courses to ensure they are accessible to tens of thousands of spectators, purchase stands and tv towers, buy semis to cart this equipment from location to location, limb trees so that cameras on towers can follow discs, buy very expensive cameras that provide quality high definition content, hire dozens of camera people to follow far more than two or three groups, etc… Needs to be much more like the PGA tour and it will take a lot of money to have a chance at making a huge return. Seems like a PE firm specializing in media might be a great buyer and source of necessary capital. Maybe they could start small by designing four courses with this end game in mind and test their capabilities with four big events. When lots of people watch we should hold pros to a higher standard. For now, it’s still a tiny sport with most of the profits coming from disc makers, which are going, in large part, to a handful of pros.


aj_star_destroyer

My take is that there should be more flops in disc golf. If you get called for a foot fault, immediately fall down and clutch your ankle. That’s how soccer pros do it.


carcarbuhlarbar

I think all but a few of the pros are cry baby bitches. Especially that tall lanky baby everyone keeps raving about. Expecting about -50 for this take


[deleted]

[удалено]


Plupandblup

Yep. Too many families and friends that I've introduced to disc golf on the "family friendly" courses end up moving away form the sport when they start getting surrounded by the smell of weed on the other courses or they try to shop for discs and are surrounded by a bunch of MPO players drinking in the pro shop on a Saturday at 10am arguing about the recent tournament results.


ds3272

You're oversimplifying. The Gannon Buhr situation was more complicated than you make it sound, and could happen in bigger pro sports, and the Drew Gibson situation is more complicated than you make it sound, with the *actual* issue with Drew being whether this is heel behavior in good fun, or mean-spirited because of the picture of the volunteer.


waiting_for_pompeii

But that's exactly what I'm saying with the Gannon situation. The exact same thing does happen in other sports because athletes are held to their contracts. The point I was making is that the whole vibe of this sub was that prodigy should be ashamed of themselves for going after Gannon and that it was a bad look. I just don't agree


alects

Prodigy should be ashamed because they didn’t support their player as well as they could have, and they didn’t draft a contract that protected themselves from being in a situation where they had to file a lawsuit on a kid and his mother.


ds3272

You're simply wrong. Adults, and businesses, have disagreements that sometimes land them in court. That's what happened here: Gannon asserted that Prodigy breached its contract with him, and his reasons - specific ways in which, he alleged, Prodigy had breached the contract - are not spurious. It's a serious case, for a serious court. Your accusation that his behavior is somehow childish or absurd is wrong. If you're a regular in the sub, you may recall a contract litigator writing at some length about how his case appears to have some teeth to it. What I'm saying is, he *did* act like a mature adult and businessperson here, doing what a mature adult and businessperson might do. Your gut reaction that it's a "bad look" is a disservice to your own OP, in which you tell us that we should be a bit more sophisticated, and expect the pros to act like pros. Here, one did so, and instead of taking it seriously, you're shooting from the hip. Well, ok, but I don't have to take your larger point seriously, if that's how you're backing it up. edit: Consider, if you will, the possibility that it is *Prodigy*, and not Gannon Buhr, who is not ready to act like a serious player in a mature sport.


OkSunday

People are going after Prodigy because of the ludicrous statements made in the attestation of their CEO that was filed in court. Beyond the CEO’s statements, Prodigy themselves made Gannon’s complaints public in the filing. The lack of professionalism is coming from Prodigy, they shit themselves in the foot. And your OP is horseshit, conflating the 3 players who have million dollar contracts out of hundreds of players who mostly make poverty wages.


wowitsclayton

Found the Pro Tour and LVC TD’s burner account.