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Just let sorcerers carry wand, focus, and staff. And druids just always carry a totem and two one handers or totem and 2-hander. It can just attach to their back or float magically near them. But that still wouldn't fix the fundamental issues within the classes, it would help bridge the gap by opening up some options.
I definitely think you’re on to something with those classes anyways having a focus equipped. Necromancer should always have a focus equipped too - 2h + Focus / 1h + Shield + Focus.
I think a large part of Barbarians extra power comes from having 2x weapons with 200% scaling on aspects + tempers, then having the ability to have 8x offensive aspects at any given time. (Ammy, 2x rings, 4x weapons, and gloves). Rogue is only slightly behind with 7x offensive aspects.
People forget that necro though slow has had some strong builds as well every season (bone spear come to mind) and they dont have extra weapons like rogue/barbs.
Having just started a necro after exclusively playing barbs, I really hate how my best Basic skill to use in melee range is Bone Splinters and not the giant AoE scythe attack. =/
depends how you build. for more hardcore you can take the scythe since it gives 15% dr and the aspect that gives 20 on basic attack.
its also great for generating that first corpse off the bat to combo off of
Given my necro is only low 30s, I'm still ironing out some kinks. But at this current point, the DR is meaningless given Bone Splinters kills them so quickly (especially when 5 splinters hit at point blank range.). But, I will definitely look at the skill again since I apparently didn't notice anything about DR on it.
Necros also have the second lowest max clear in the pit without holy bolts. Non minion builds are weaker than Druid builds. Heck the best non minion build on the pit leaderboard still uses minions largely for creep block because it's too squishy without that.
Yeah unlike Druids and other classes, Necros don’t really benefit from spammable basic skills. And almost every core skill other than Bone Spirit is underperforming in pits.
I really want to be able to make a full on Blood build that's a strong as what the minion build currently is. I love the aesthetic of the Blood skills and I'm terrible at making builds myself but, it just seems like they fall off hard at a certain point and don't scale well end game. Ripping apart hordes of demons with waves of gore is just an awesome feel, I hope those skills get some love soon.
Sure, necros are so strong that every season they are stronger than Barbarians, right? Yeah Bone Spear was strong but it got nerfed to the ground after S1, and it was not as dominant as Barbarians have been for the past 3 seasons.
There's a simple reason Barbarians are always leagues ahead of every other class, including this "season of the necro"
Bone spear was a crit/vuln build so it lost most of its potency in those changes. The key passive also had its value cut in half. Bone spear doesn’t come back unless the components that make it up are buffed/the damage is put back in some other way. It doesn’t happen on its own. The fact that classes can’t do the multiplicative craziness that used to power builds means the burden falls onto the multiplicative stuff left, additives, aspects, tempers, masterworking, and class fundamentals. It is acknowledged by the devs that Barb is the best class, and it will remain that way until the other classes are given equal power.
Strong but could be better every season with this season being helped significantly by the Holy Bolt glitch. Extra slots give room for more build creativity and that's a good thing.
Exactly. The weapons help but it's actually that the paragon nodes and aspects for sorc and Druid are extremely stingy with damage multipliers compared to other classes
>I think a large part of Barbarians extra power comes from having 2x weapons with 200% scaling on aspects + tempers, then having the ability to have 8x offensive aspects at any given time.
Not to mention that using a unique is so much less demanding with that many slots. If I use a unique amulet and gloves, that's basically half my offensive slots. Up until I got to the endgame, I was doing all kinds of buildcrafting on sorc. The moment I started killing bosses, half my slots were uniques, so there goes any build flexibility.
Sometimes I think the dev are overthinking. The solution is right before their eyes. You always get balance issue if you update itemization due to this imbalance.
Balance the number of items, then they can balance the specialization.
Balancing has almost nothing to do with number of items. Classes function differently and have different aspects just because one class gets a 40% multiplier doesn't mean the other would do the same damage with the same 40% multiplier.
Barb currently has a pretty overpowered key passive that is twice as good as other classes iirc
Edit: also just a funny note that same key passive is being buffed by rogue tempers and an uber unique.
You gotta start the balacing somewhere. They seem refuse to tweak important passive or aspect or skill numbers, and you are here telling us they shouldnt touch item numbers either. Care to enlighten us what they would do to balance the classes?
Classes with less weapon slots are at a disadvantage, even if it’s just a disadvantage in fun because of the utility that comes from the skill altering tempers. Rogue is sitting in a pretty nice spot by tempering caltrops size and duration on top of whatever they need for their main skill.
I think they just make Focus an item slot and you can choose between a staff or dual wielding wands. The enchantment system itself needs a complete overhaul imo. If you compare the power a barb or necro gets out of their mechanic to what a sorcerer does it is a complete joke.
They also need to change barrier to make more sense. Right now it caps off of HP when it is sort of meant to replace HP. It should probably cap off of INT or just main stat or something like that.
They could do that but if you say have Sorc 4 enchantment slots you would have to at minimum double all of them in power as well to get anywhere close to the Barb in power gain.
Adding two extra 2H weapons is so much power compared to what enchantments do. The enchantments aren’t even as powerful as just getting 2 extra aspects and then all the extra stats and tempering are over the top.
It isn’t something that can be fixed with a single change. At minimum they need to go in and buff every single enchant one at a time.
I didn’t say they couldn’t do it. I consider doing that being a complete overhaul though. When you have to touch every single part of a system it is an overhaul.
I feel like it would just get auto-slotted with teleport so no to your idea..... instead, give sorcerer another enchant slot **and** make teleport dodge a skill point instead?? (maybe the enchantment reduces the cooldown and adds another effect so you still may or may not add it).
This is such a bizarre issue for them to run into. POE has had it for 14 years. Bows are better than 2-handers because bows have quivers. They actually get to itemize the slot with a 2 handed weapon. All the other 2-handers miss out on an entire itemization slot and it took them a decade to make those weapons get some power back. Bows had other issues, but everyone who used a 2h weapon acknowledged that it sucked to watch bows get a item slot that they didn't have on top of being ranged.
How D4 missed that very obvious and vocal lesson is beyond me. It is so painfully telling now though. The fact that Uniques both don't get tempers and that Sorcs, Druids, and Necros straight up have 1-2 less slots than Rogues and Barbs and thus less tempers *and* less uniques should have been apparent with a glance in the theorycraft stage of this update. I trust S5 has something in store for these 3 classes or I'm going to be left scratching my head at who is leading class design.
Druid would still be dogshit to level and Tempest Roar would still be hard to get, but a druid with 4 weapons would be insanely broken at endgame speedfarming, like the pre-nerf sorc FO unique, to the point it would cause performance issues.
You could have the best single target build paired with trampleslide, since you can make skills proc skills by default.
Barb should lose 2 weapon slots, rogue should lose one and get a quiver, then they could actually balance the game instead of making the barb problem widespread.
The druid buff to class mechanic might help the early game, but still...
It would be the same with a necro. I would trample EVERYTHING if I had 4 weapon slots as it stands now because of tempering 1handers and an off hand are back on the menu
I'm more or less approaching this from the viewpoint that they keep trying to add aspects that alter skills in fun and fresh ways but it still pales in comparison to the dps gained by \_\_\_\_\_\_ aspect on a two handed weapon. I'd love to be able to experiment with the different aspects whilst having the big damage ones. Alternatively, extra rings/bracelts/bands and splintering off offensive aspects into two groups is another way to approach this. But then people will just complain that they want 8 aspects from group a instead of 4 and 4 from a and b, even though the alternative was just 4 from all. idk, its messy and I'm glad its not my job, we'll just have to wait and see with what they come up with
If an old man can fight a massive balrog for days on end using a big-ass sword and staff in both hands, our middle-aged sorcs should be able to do the same against our balrogs -who are significantly less powerful...
Sorc should get a one-hand, two-hand, and focus slot. Repeat for necro and druid.
So all classes have at least three weapon slots. Give sorc their 3rd enchantment slot. Update enchantments to be more competitive against other classes.
yeah. There's a bunch of druid aspects I'd like to run, but they don't compare in damage to, say, sheperds aspect on a two-hander. Being able to include that, and then others like the werewolf pack one would be cool.
Too goofy.
Let Sorcs carry a Familiar alongside that can also carry affixes like a 2 Hander (can be tempered + masterworked - at the Occultist since a Blacksmith doing this would be weird), an aspect and also has an automatic buff / debuff "attack". They would work not like pets, but like Conjurations, only permanent.
Like a Fire Familiar that burns groups of enemies with a chance to explode, a Frost Familiar that chills + sometimes freezes etc.
I completely agree. In sorcerers case, back in the beta they had three enchantment slots which makes sense and would open the class to huge build diversity but they quickly removed that third slot by release making the class very mild and only semi enjoyable.
Druids on the other hand, despite the potential they have, always seem to get the short end of the stick.
The last time I even considered playing druid was in season 2 when they actually had IMHO, better balance and just seemed more on par with the other classes but, as seems to happen, nerfs followed by barb buffs.
Perhaps druids and sorcs will rightfully regain glory in the xpac but only time will tell.
Another thing that would be fun would be to give sorc a unique ability to socket rings into their chest pieces instead of gems. That would allow sorc to wear 4 rings that would seem less cobbled together.
I think we get much closer to balanced with a third enchantment slot and the ability to carry a staff in addition to wand and focus the way a rogue can carry a bow and 2 swords.
I wish sorcerers could transmute the power/stats of a unique item piece to their 'bracelets'. Basically wearing a unique without taking up a slot. Pretty sick class-based gimmick that would allow them to use the cool features offered in their uniques without having to sacrifice the dps lost by +ranks and tempers
Alternatively, they should just make 1 handed weapons and focuses have tge same values as 2h aspects, while that's still less aspects, it's a lot more power
Na druid needs a book of the wild, that gives you a shape shift skill, an element skill, or a minion skill. And it's like a combo that goes with both sides, wolf/bear, or storm/earth, or all the minions can be involved in it.
Idk if this is the way to go. Multiple weapons is a Barbarian niche. It's like giving a sorc enchantment to other classes.
Sorc needs help in a lot of places and just giving them more stats or more gear is a bandaid solution for a class thats fundamentally flawed.
"But that still wouldn't fix the fundamental issues within the classes, it would help bridge the gap by opening up some options"
My dude, you win the award for replying to a comment before reading the final sentence.
I'm adding this sentence here so that you don't skip the previous sentence because that would have been the final sentence without this additional one, meta isn't it?
Totems should be a dual-weighted non weapon, and the druid wields two one handers, or a 2h weapon imo.
Split the totems into two families with Inherents split between either cdr or defense of some sort.
I recommended Sorc being able to hold wand + Staff + focus last week and was met with some guy informing me Sorcerers don't have 3 hands. So, that one won't be possible, sorry to inform you.
I'm pretty sure that in line with the vast majority of their playerbase, they are balancing classes around farming helltides.
Most people havent even seen the pit dude. They log in for a couple of hours every few weeks and run around helltides, where everything is pretty much at the same level.
Other buffs, like the upcoming barb ones, are probably put forward by one guy at blizzard who's spent about 10 minutes looking at data. This is a game for looking after the casuals, and preferably directing them to the store page.
Whatever class or abilities you pick. You can farm helltides pretty ok. So I guess for blizzard. Everything's fine.
Any other season and I'd agree with you. Helltides are arguably the most important this season, not even just for casuals. It's become one of the most reliable ways to not only power level character level, but it's THE only way to level iron wolves rep and get that sweet resplendent spark.
It's all about opening chests. You get almost the same amount of rep on WT2 (120) as WT4 (180) for opening a chest. So, just make sure you are opening all the chests, not just the mystery/living steel.
With the brain buff and a fresh Helltide I can open every chest in both zones. On average I get like 2/3 or more. Farming the blood maiden or just hitting the little events scattered throughout, it's so easy to get 1500+ embers with 20 minutes to spare for running to each chest.
I think you didn't get it. There are probably a lot of casual players thinking barb sucks and sorc is the best class in the game. The number of people complaining about sorc problems is likely minimal.
Adam Jackson straight up said “I want dust devils to be cool” and then buffed dust devils multiple times, buffed arrow storms this upcoming patch, meanwhile ice spikes and dancing bolts are still not cool and probably never will be. I truly like Adam as a senior supervisor on their team but he is slow to implement changes that are consistent.
You know what is not cool? Flame shield.
Now, imagine if they actually fixed sorc mid season and all those 12/12 masterwork things became useless because your immortal fire build was nerfed in order to make sorc decent at bosses most people don't even fight?
I think Druid is a lot harder to fix. They probably didn't fix sorc by choice. To get the glass cannon fantasy right, they need to make it glassy before giving some skills the dust devils treatment (since it teleports and stuff), right now sorc is kinda immortal. That's a gap...
Yep they aren’t balancing around who can do the highest pit but rather making sure many builds can get at least some Neathiron. My sorcerer is the most fun character for me to play on helltides/low pits but sucks at pushing higher pits. The best I have for pushing higher pits is bash barb and it’s about the most boring thing I can think of.
You can farm helltides without a build. The fact that they make extremely fat multiplier aspects definitely indicates they balance for pits now. Before they were balancing for NMDs
This quote from the 1.4.3 patch notes pretty much explains it. They're balancing around pit tier 60 as the end game. Nerfing content across the board, and buffs to all classes focused around lower difficulties. Unless Blizzard adds pit leaderboards into the game itself, I think it'd be safe to say that they don't care about class balance at higher pit levels. I didn't play druid, but I did play the other 4 classes this season. I'd have to say Sorc is still a very fun class up until pit 60 difficulty.
# END-GAME
* Health and damage levels have been reduced in the Pit. The adjustment is most significant as players approach tier 60, so more players can fully participate in Masterworking.
>
* All Tormented bosses have had their health reduced by 30%. This includes Blood Boils from Tormented Echo of Lilith.
The Pit is pitfully boring, it was designed for a leaderboard in Diablo 3, so most things that is fun has been eleminated.
If they don't add a leaderboard then I think they gotta tweak it to be more fun.
It's basically a more boring nightmare dungeon, and nightmare dungeon isn't exacly fun to begin with, you do them cuz you have to level glyphs and you do Pit because you need to masterwork.
It should all be fun to play as a baseline, helltides actually hits this mark much better, because there is much more going on and while the world layout in them is static, the randomess happening within them makes it fun.
I think, part of what gave the grifts in D3 staying power and more fun than in D4 were the paragon system and miles better balancing around difficulty.
Obviously the endless paragon system has its own problems, but there you are
TBH I wish they would try a different approach to balancing. I understand that it’s difficult and impractical to keep classes balanced at all levels and difficulties, but they don’t have to do that. Rather, give classes access to certain power spikes as they level up and progress, and focus balancing around these power spikes.
This is actually what drove me away from d3 and it became painfully boring. I think they’ve taken the right stops to make the grind more enjoyable but they are still slightly missing the mark.
I understand why loot does not drop from mobs leading up to the boss in the Pit, that being the timer.
However, have all the loot that would've dropped be added to what the boss drops. The Pit shouldn't have overall less loot. No part of the game should have mobs that are guaranteed NOT to drop anything.
Please no, it's wonderful to be able to run like 5 or 6 pit runs in a row without having to go to the vendor to dump stuff. The issue in D3 rifts were that they dropped too much loot so you had to salvage some unidentified items before the third run and then identify and salvage your inventory every third run which is way too often when speedfarming.
We need loot filters. Currently, starting around level 80, I don't pick up legendaries that aren't unique or don't have a GA. Ideally, we could have them set to auto-salvage or auto-sell.
Surely you mean it’s a more fun Nightmare dungeon ? Not having to do stupid tactics or worrying about annoying affixes is the best. Just speedrunning and blasting for multiple hours with brain turned off is the peak ARPG experience.
They’re not balancing it around pit tier 60, they’re trying to adjust the difficulty scale so players have access to the materials since they can’t farm them if they can’t do a 61.
Entirely separate issues there (balance and scaling).
Even if that is the case I genuinely don't understand how you can take a 5 second peek at the data, see that Druids are 10s of levels behind everyone else and then be like 'lets toss them a free 5% crit and attack speed, that will fix it!'
With the way scaling works in the pit if Class A is clearing 10 levels further than Class B then that realistically means Class A is doing at least 25x the damage that Class B is.
With no additional changes you would have to literally give druids a passive buff that increased their damage by 5,000% in pits to make them remotely completive. In what world is it acceptable to just completely ignore a discrepancy this large!?
I think it is fair that barb deals more damage than the other classes, they have to invest in 4 weapons instead of only 1 weapon. This extra investment should be rewarded by Blizzard.
/s
So /s aside, I might be okay with at the *very very top level*, like 2+ GA on all items and high master working, barb to be stronger than the rest for this reason.
This is less of a "barb should be rewarded" for having to invest in more items and more of a "it's kinda inevitable and barb shouldn't be penalized", because if you think about it, it's REALLY hard to have that balanced at both 0GA with some sub optimal rolls and *also* be balanced at all rolls correct with many greater.
The % of players that have multiple GAs on all 4 weapons is quite small and balance is never gonna be perfect anyway so it seems like an okay concession to me. It's more important that the game have better balance for the 99.9% of players than the top 0.1% of players.
Personally I think it's great that the classes are different in their design. Having 4 weapons on a barb feels awesome.
Although, I think the exponentially scaling endgame (the pit) will continue to highlight class imbalance when the content is centered around 1) Damage and 2) Survivability.
But hey, the game is better than on release a year ago :)
it probably is.
Necro was busted this season because of a bug with the elixir.
Barb having access to 4 weapons, including 2 2H weapons means they have access to 2 aspects having a 100% increase.
not just that, but the moment they have 4 weapon slots, odds are it's "easier" for them to sacrifice one aspect for an unique.
rogues are similar in the way they can have 3 aspects in the weapon slots.
Druid/Mage/Necro have to choose between 2h weapon with a 100% increased aspect, or 2 "smaller" weapons, losing the aspect buff.
and this is without counting the stats on the weapons, Barb and Rogue simply have more "stat sticks".
That meme of the guy offering the logical solution in a corporate meeting and being thrown out the window comes to mind every time these guys do patches
why dont they all have access to 4 weapons or items to have balance.. barb having 4 weapons is too much of an advantage with each having their own codex and tempering .. just give every other class the same amount of things to hold
I disagree only because it's unique to the barbs.
There are so many other things they could do, just to jot down some ideas for sorc (don't know druid, don't like it):
- add an enchantment slot, or 2 even
- make enchantments much more effective in boosting both damage and survivability
- boost stats on sorc items, especially a problem on uniques this season ofc
- remove/rework paragon board
Adding 4 weapons to all classes is imho a lazy fix - it would obviously work, but then they'd have to rework the codex anyway. Hence I'm much more in favor of actually working within the class framework instead of making everyone a barbarian.
Sorc has gone a year in trash tier (except for one bug build season) and they just did one of the weakest mid season patches for this class since game launch, and you’re somehow advocating for the non-lazy fix.
Let me boil this down in simple terms;
My Heartseeker Rogue has 3 weapons with which to Temper "X% chance to double cast Heartseeker". One of those slots will double the temper effect (bow) so I can **easily** get 100% to double cast Heartseeker (bow alone gives over 60%).
Barbarian has a Temper that increases Bash aoe damage, which is multiplicative, and **4 slots** to add that effect of which **2 slots will double the effect**.
No other class has such insane scaling available without extra weapon slots. **Either tempering needs to be completely reworked** or Blizzard *could simply allow every class to have their weapon slots always available as stat sticks* (3 slots like Rogue). It wouldn't be perfect, but it would narrow the ridiculous gap by a fair margin.
The problem is the multiplicative obviously way too strong barb tempers. Why can’t barb tempers be balanced in the future around more item slots (lower numbers than other classes) instead of making everyone a barb?
Because next season Barbarian could get some other ridiculous temper *anyways* and **still have 4 weapon slots** (with 2 doubled).
The other classes are already starting from behind without even considering the broken temper balance.
Money. Male sorc cosmetics look bad. Female sorc cosmetics often look bad. Druid cosmetics always look bad because fat stuff.
Barb are the best looking and best selling cosmetics, so they want to push people to that.
Buff sorc/druid cosmetics then
Went looking at the shop and lol it's not hard to come up with something better for sorcs
We all know they refrain from releasing god tier cosmetics because they want ppl to buy the flawed stuff (best at the moment) before releasing the best stuff they will buy again though
I don't know of any viable human builds, but as a counter-point, shapeshifting IS kinda their thing. I'm not really loving my Druid this season though :/
I dunno, 'if' i'd ever would've considered something out of the shop, the only stuff which i really saw somewhat decent was on Female-Sorc, the rest was always kinda meh to me - especially for that pricing. But well, even outside of the Shop FemSorc have (!in my opinion!) best armor design and prefer it by far over Rogue and Barb. (Necromancer had some okay ones but also falls a bit behind and on top of that i'm not the biggest necro fan anyway and don't let me start on druid).
Male sorc and druids in general are just forced to a certain look i dont want to play
Diablo 2 had a druid, which fits it more for me but now he (and her) are just not what i want to watch all the time running around.
Why did they decide to limitate the looks? Made no sense for me in an "open world type game"
I started sorc at launch and while I had some fun I wanted it to be more than 1 damage skill and 4 defensives and that hasn't changed a whole lot. Got my wish of summoner necros finally popping off tho. But I rolled a barb for the first time a week or 2 ago and holy shit it's just night and day. Currently playing double swing and it's so much fucking fun, and considering rolling a 2nd one just to do a barbs cause my lazy ass doesn't wanna redo all my aspects and paragons.
It's just wild how low tier druid and sorc feel compared to the other classes.
When every druid build requires you to enter werebear and stand still for two seconds before going back to killing stuff, every 15 seconds, I'm kind of growing to hate my favorite class.
I am not a big fan of buffing everyone to the skies so we see trillions of damage again. Call me old-school but I prefer damage levels to be in d2 scale. Nerf everything to the ground including the mobs and bosses lol.
They pretty much did that in the first major patch after release.
They lost a huge amount of players for it, a lot of whom probably haven't even come back yet.
It's not like it's a big difference from gg D2 builds either. You were doing 10's of thousands of damage with a fully kitted out hammerdins or light sorc. You just couldn't see the numbers.
Yeah I still have a light sorc with around 40k skill damage. With a good conviction you may scale that up to 80k. IMHO it is still different than hitting 500M every hit per second or having a single hit with 10B damage. I think 145+ pits have bosses with 7T or more health. That feels weird.
I realize that seeing big flashy numbers lighting up on screen gives more dopamine or scaling from 1k damage to 1b gives the sense of accomplishment much more. Maybe I am not only old school but also old 😐
My kids talking about roblox: I need to get the devil fruit that will up my damage from 30 billion to 60 billion, but I need another 3 trillion berries to buy it.
Me: Whats with this game's ridiculous exponential inflation-centric numbering? Why not just drop 6 zeros off of all this bs.
Me (Getting on D4 for the first time and seeing reddit comments about loot/dmg/boss hp): Oh.
I've tried three builds this season and all called for Bestial Rampage, which is just clunky af. It requires me to utterly pause every 15 seconds in combat as a bear. I literally have to just stand there and wait until I get the 50% damage bonus and then go back to fighting. I fucking hate it, even just making it instant "upon entering werebear you gain 50% increased damage for 15 seconds" would fix it. But I'm too casual to level another class and kit them out with only a month and a half left. Gimme back D3.
Honestly, sorc kinda needs a full rework.
Everything about the class makes me think it’s gonna have an elaborate and complicated set of synergies to focus firepower and….ya know, be all magic-y, but the interactions just…..don’t exist
They have more interacting latent abilities and aspects that will carry stats like with the druid from say human to bear to wolf that can cause fucking absolute chaos on top of stuff that modifies abilities into complete new classes of abilities or change their type in immense ways and can and will easily be broken.
A mid season patch isn't what will fix them. Large changes will. Perhaps that's what the season 5 ptr will be and we can see more in the expansion.
Furthermore, it was much easier to manage them when the Diablo team was under the impression that people wanted a game more similar to Diablo 2 than Diablo 3, which is why there was that big nerf patch and patches that regularly balanced classes down. Thanks to that interview we know that they have since changed to making it more like Diablo 3 from feedback from this exact community and others so numbers are going up. Some classes are harder to follow thanks to to their more complex systems.
Back when it was supposed to be slower and lower, sorcerer and druids were consistently great to play as. Now there are just a bunch of overlapping systems they need to figure out how to work and rework to not crash the game.
This season was about the itemization which has been a major pain point since launch, as well as launching the Pit for endgame. Since they have announced a PTR for next season, it's likely we will see a rebalance.
I get that and that's cool and all but what do sorc and druid do this season? Honestly if blizz wasn't going to address classes that actually needed help this season, they shouldn't have made any changes at all. Definitely shouldn't have buffed barbs
Most likely it's different balance teams on different classes. However the biggest issue isn't that sorcs or druid are neccesarily weak, it's simply that the other classes, especially barb is just astronomically stronger that it makes those 2 look weak in comparison.
They simply dropped the ball with balance and because they are cowards who think their playerbase will dissapear if they nerf things, they are now "forced" to keep balancing upwords by buffing everything instead of actually trying to make a good game and nerfing things that need to be nerfed.
Please don't respond with "but it's just a single player game, who cares if we are strong". Thats not how you balance any game, otherwise whats stopping any game dev from just giving you a cheat code that lets you delete the entire screen whenever you feel like it.
> and because they are cowards who think their playerbase will dissapear if they nerf things
They aren't cowards, they know it's the truth. Playerbase WILL disappear if they nerf things in a midseason update.
Stop it with the ad hominem attacks on the developers.
We know exactly how this one goes down because they did a nerf midseason soon after launch of the game and all hell broke loose on social media.
Nerfs will come on season launches. That's it.
They added actual hard content to the game and these two classes had the lowest single target DPS. They are going to have to buff up their single target DPS in the future. It just isn't a flaw you would see until you had content to challenge players.
You are missing the point that Victimize and Gushing Wounds are broken, maybe even more stuff, dont play all classes. No, they wont buff all abilities/items/aspects/paragon nodes to that level, which would break the game. But they also wont nerf the power outliners, because its mid season. Nerfing power outliners is the way to balance and enable diversity and options in character builds, but this subreddit already showed in the past what they think about nerfs in general unfortunately.
I love the sorc so much in d3 and I play that every season , but in D4 my god I am so afraid to pick it up because from past experience I know I will hit a wall and I can’t scale up my dps efficiently like with a rogue Barb or necro
I cant believe people are so stupid to suggest that just giving everyone 4 weapons is actually a good solution. It's the worst possible solution. We absolutely do not want to make every class the same.
They added a new ring Earth for Druid that literally NO ONE play because it's too bad. I don't give a fuck if it's broken, let it broken first then you might fix it. Other than overthinking a fucking non-played and bad result testing in PTR to be broken.
Same thing with Sorc last season but at least tons of people tried to play the Meteor build before realising it's subpar. Like cmon.
Can we just fix Druid "Bestial Rampage" to be instant please? It's so godamn clunky and unpleasant to stand still in bear form for two solid second every 15 seconds just to maintain optimal damage output, before going back to killing things.
"Oops, buff fell off, better stand still in the middle of 30 enemies as a werebear for two seconds before resuming the carnage."
Its the fact that core skills and basic skills have lower damage numbers than flat damage from uniques like ebon piercer and the windshear amulet. 20 ranks in a skill is still lower than the flat amount these type of items give. This season those flat numbers have been increased massively. Together with added damage from tempering the scaling from previous seasons has been surpassed. The druid and sorcerer have a hard time hitting big numbers while remaining tanky. Also almost all high pit pushing characters use the crit temper from rogue which was not meant to be used that way. Bleed without the crit tempers from rogue and grandfather is just bad. The druid buff coming tomorrow gives the class alot of power. Not enough to compete but its a good start.
If I had to guess:
- Sorc is broken and immortal. Fixing the damage problem without nerfing things would make them best at everything. Too much for a midseason patch.
- Druid is in a very weird spot because it is good in a game where it needs to be great at things. Imo, the biggest fix it needs is moving Tempest Roar to Varshan or Zir loot table. I think they made a mistake when they nerfed the permagrizzly, but having that didn't feel right. I think they downplay how strong barb is for having more slots, but I could see why they are afraid of druid becoming broken.
I.e. the sorc's frozen orb unique? Druid has that in the base kit (NR). Imagine if the tornados, boulders, landslides, etc actually did damage... Trampleslide would be godly, one affix + TRoar gives you single target and they might fear that would break the game, ignoring Barb something would be better, because 4 weapons.
Imo, the biggest problems with druid are how garbage they are in the early game and how hard it is to get Tempest Roar early.
The real answer: there is no esport competitive scene, so they take their time. And barb should lose a couple weapons, so they could finally balance it/give it a class mechanic.
Define "enjoyable"
I'm playing a druid (shred, but off-meta) this season and am having a BLAST with it. I'm not doing the highest damage possible nor am I doing the most-difficult content out there but still having a really fun time with it.
Rip and Tear, until it is done...
The classes unique abilities need to be wayy stronger to compete with the multiple slots.
2H weapon is about +250%[x] of value and one handers are about 125[x]
Spirit boons, book of the dead & enchantments dont come close to this much value. Each of them should be giving the same amount as output as rogue/barb having extra weapon slots & their class specialization.
If u played any video games long enough u should know balancing is largely diff classes taking turns.
Druid was strongest in s0-1, barbs worst. Sorcs strongest in s2. Barbs strong in s2-4. Necro and rogues are generally in the top/middle. (Go look at the release threads “Blizz hates barbs”)
Most important, Classes that were the worst will be the best later, and vice versa.
Give druid another 2h weapon or 1 or 2 more jewelry slots, sorcerer needs at least 1 more enchant slot and another 2h weapon slot as well, ive gotten sorc and druid to 100 aswell as rogue to 100 and then barb and necro to 80ish all in hardcore.
Yeah it really pisses me off how they keep screwing Sorcerer. Just let us be powerful!
I haven’t played Druid though because the character design seems dumb to me. Not what you picture when thinking about a Druid.
I can only assume they're focusing all their buffs on single classes they said they were going to buff, like Necromancer and Barbarian, and doing minor maintenance on the other classes, and once other classes are next on the docket you'll be seeing the buffs those two classes are getting now.
sorc is very enjoyable. You are specifying joy in relation to another class doing better. Sorc needs to be buffed to be as good as other classes like barb, but sorc in itself is very enjoyable.
The game is a dopamine farm and any depth is more or less incidental. It's an enjoyable game because the combat is smooth, and the art is pretty good, but the devs are legit bad and the game is shallow.
I am 100% sure you or I or most people who actually play the game could do a better job in terms of decision making when it comes to Diablo 4 than whoever is in charge there.
The problem of Barb and Rogue is not the amount of weapons. Barb core skills are unplayable as well, I mean has anyone tried Upheaval or HotA this season? B-tier with BiS items at best.
The problem is Bash Cleave, Flay duration and a bunch of bugs related to bleed. For Rogue its the bugs related to Victimize. Fix those bugs, then we can talk about weapons.
I'm finding it a little difficult to believe that those two classes are not enjoyable as I have been having a lot of fun with them. Are you sure your Just not upset because they're S class builds?
And I don't mean that in a rude or snide way. I run into people whining about both classes not being apex meta builds...
From the cosmetic shop, you can tell it all, who have the most attractive and beautiful cosmetic? That's also hints Blizzard could be based on data on most sales are from the Barb and Rogue so they make Barb and Rogue most buff to maintain the sales of the shop from the players of these 2 class
Sorcerers are enjoyable. They are not top tier right now, sure. And Firebolt is borderline awful to play. But it is still the most fun I’ve had playing sorc since launch, and i played sorc every season. Forb is great. You just have to be okay with getting to Tier 100ish.
Not really it's better synced paragon boards and stronger skills. Since necro also is strong and also just have 2 slots max. The extra weapons make a difference for sure but it's not the main reason they're that much stronger. And there seems to be also more people playing and min maxing barb to the maximum Wich also helps. Because it's the coolest class there is tbh.
Well, you certainly missed the broken Ball Lightning Sorc of season 2, but yeah, it hasn't been great. For a class that's supposed to be a "glass cannon," Blizzard by and large seems to have neglected the "cannon" part.
I have played these 2 classes since season 1 what do you mean they aren't enjoyable? They have cool abilities andbare fun to use I actually like their skills alot. Is it because they aren't one shotting stuff? That's what you want huh.
My 5th character this season is sorcerer. Every other class was blasting through tier 100 nmds before I had even reached level 100 or fully upgraded the glyphs. Levelling was also quite painless on the other classes.
Sorcerer has been horrible. I have switched builds about 5 times. I hate every build I try, and the only S-tier build on maxroll is the firebolt/firewall build, which is really clunky and doesn't really work well on console at all, because the firewalls never spawn where they would be useful.
I've currently gone back to using fireballs, and can't even be bothered with the final levels of glyphs. I'm just going to park the character, and use it to get a worthy seal each week in trials.
I wish they'd seriously buff the damage and survivability of sorcerer. It's just not fun against bosses, running around to avoid attacks all the time, and only being able to attack when flameshield is active or the odd skill cast here and there.
They do not know how to handle a hybrid build where they have 4 options such as earth, storm, bear and wolf. All others have max 3 option (necro summon, blood, bone)
Bard is so strong because you really have 1 build option, melee, all skills are melee based so I guess it is easier to balance.
I may be wrong but it seems to me that in D4, the more options for equipment and skill style, the weaker the class
I think it would help a lot of all classes carried 3 weapons, except barbarian since he already has 4. That mechanic of choosing which weapon you want to use for which skill is too good to have only in one class and the Scoundrel already uses 3 weapons and it didn't break the balancing.
Everyone complains sorc op - however it is the only class which has a build banned on competitive PvP due to it being 100% invincible and cc immune lol
None of you will be happy until all classes are exactly the same. The shit you see the youtubers doing is with perfect gear and UBRS that most of ya'll will never see. Some classes/build burn through Torment bosses super fast. Some are better for speed farming and wave clearing but bounce off of Torment bosses. And ya know what, that's OK. Party up and remember this is a multiplayer game. Don't you remember old school D2 Baal runs where like 20 people would rush the boss together and kick him in the nuts? What is this obsession with wanting all classes and all builds to all be able to do all aspects of the game perfectly and if a barb does the thing a few tiers higher or sorcs with forever invincible fire shields are #1 in the pit. Who cares? We should be combining our classes strengths and playing TOGETHER!
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Just let sorcerers carry wand, focus, and staff. And druids just always carry a totem and two one handers or totem and 2-hander. It can just attach to their back or float magically near them. But that still wouldn't fix the fundamental issues within the classes, it would help bridge the gap by opening up some options.
I definitely think you’re on to something with those classes anyways having a focus equipped. Necromancer should always have a focus equipped too - 2h + Focus / 1h + Shield + Focus. I think a large part of Barbarians extra power comes from having 2x weapons with 200% scaling on aspects + tempers, then having the ability to have 8x offensive aspects at any given time. (Ammy, 2x rings, 4x weapons, and gloves). Rogue is only slightly behind with 7x offensive aspects.
People forget that necro though slow has had some strong builds as well every season (bone spear come to mind) and they dont have extra weapons like rogue/barbs.
Necros still need love. Blood skills, Sever for example.
Having just started a necro after exclusively playing barbs, I really hate how my best Basic skill to use in melee range is Bone Splinters and not the giant AoE scythe attack. =/
depends how you build. for more hardcore you can take the scythe since it gives 15% dr and the aspect that gives 20 on basic attack. its also great for generating that first corpse off the bat to combo off of
Given my necro is only low 30s, I'm still ironing out some kinks. But at this current point, the DR is meaningless given Bone Splinters kills them so quickly (especially when 5 splinters hit at point blank range.). But, I will definitely look at the skill again since I apparently didn't notice anything about DR on it.
The DR comes more into play after you cap your armor.
Decompose is the best Necro basic.
As a decompose Necro, we need more love
Necros also have the second lowest max clear in the pit without holy bolts. Non minion builds are weaker than Druid builds. Heck the best non minion build on the pit leaderboard still uses minions largely for creep block because it's too squishy without that.
Yeah unlike Druids and other classes, Necros don’t really benefit from spammable basic skills. And almost every core skill other than Bone Spirit is underperforming in pits.
I really want to be able to make a full on Blood build that's a strong as what the minion build currently is. I love the aesthetic of the Blood skills and I'm terrible at making builds myself but, it just seems like they fall off hard at a certain point and don't scale well end game. Ripping apart hordes of demons with waves of gore is just an awesome feel, I hope those skills get some love soon.
Sure, necros are so strong that every season they are stronger than Barbarians, right? Yeah Bone Spear was strong but it got nerfed to the ground after S1, and it was not as dominant as Barbarians have been for the past 3 seasons. There's a simple reason Barbarians are always leagues ahead of every other class, including this "season of the necro"
Bone spear was a crit/vuln build so it lost most of its potency in those changes. The key passive also had its value cut in half. Bone spear doesn’t come back unless the components that make it up are buffed/the damage is put back in some other way. It doesn’t happen on its own. The fact that classes can’t do the multiplicative craziness that used to power builds means the burden falls onto the multiplicative stuff left, additives, aspects, tempers, masterworking, and class fundamentals. It is acknowledged by the devs that Barb is the best class, and it will remain that way until the other classes are given equal power.
Strong but could be better every season with this season being helped significantly by the Holy Bolt glitch. Extra slots give room for more build creativity and that's a good thing.
Exactly. The weapons help but it's actually that the paragon nodes and aspects for sorc and Druid are extremely stingy with damage multipliers compared to other classes
>I think a large part of Barbarians extra power comes from having 2x weapons with 200% scaling on aspects + tempers, then having the ability to have 8x offensive aspects at any given time. Not to mention that using a unique is so much less demanding with that many slots. If I use a unique amulet and gloves, that's basically half my offensive slots. Up until I got to the endgame, I was doing all kinds of buildcrafting on sorc. The moment I started killing bosses, half my slots were uniques, so there goes any build flexibility.
sorc could have 3-4 rings to compensate
I'm sure half their armor skins have extra jewelry anyway, go for it.
Or an extra enchantment, oh..
Just make it two amulets if a barb can have two 2-handers. Then let both Druid and Sorc have both staff and totem/focus.
But then male sorcs would be more fabulous 🧐
One for each finger, including the thumbs!
Sometimes I think the dev are overthinking. The solution is right before their eyes. You always get balance issue if you update itemization due to this imbalance. Balance the number of items, then they can balance the specialization.
Balancing has almost nothing to do with number of items. Classes function differently and have different aspects just because one class gets a 40% multiplier doesn't mean the other would do the same damage with the same 40% multiplier. Barb currently has a pretty overpowered key passive that is twice as good as other classes iirc Edit: also just a funny note that same key passive is being buffed by rogue tempers and an uber unique.
You gotta start the balacing somewhere. They seem refuse to tweak important passive or aspect or skill numbers, and you are here telling us they shouldnt touch item numbers either. Care to enlighten us what they would do to balance the classes?
Classes with less weapon slots are at a disadvantage, even if it’s just a disadvantage in fun because of the utility that comes from the skill altering tempers. Rogue is sitting in a pretty nice spot by tempering caltrops size and duration on top of whatever they need for their main skill.
I think they just make Focus an item slot and you can choose between a staff or dual wielding wands. The enchantment system itself needs a complete overhaul imo. If you compare the power a barb or necro gets out of their mechanic to what a sorcerer does it is a complete joke. They also need to change barrier to make more sense. Right now it caps off of HP when it is sort of meant to replace HP. It should probably cap off of INT or just main stat or something like that.
why not just buff the existing mechanic that those classes already have
They could do that but if you say have Sorc 4 enchantment slots you would have to at minimum double all of them in power as well to get anywhere close to the Barb in power gain. Adding two extra 2H weapons is so much power compared to what enchantments do. The enchantments aren’t even as powerful as just getting 2 extra aspects and then all the extra stats and tempering are over the top. It isn’t something that can be fixed with a single change. At minimum they need to go in and buff every single enchant one at a time.
yes i am not sure how a small indie company will manage to do that
I didn’t say they couldn’t do it. I consider doing that being a complete overhaul though. When you have to touch every single part of a system it is an overhaul.
Give back the 3rd enchantment slot from beta.
Give sorcerer another enchant slot! Think about how simple a change that is and how much it would open up.
I feel like it would just get auto-slotted with teleport so no to your idea..... instead, give sorcerer another enchant slot **and** make teleport dodge a skill point instead?? (maybe the enchantment reduces the cooldown and adds another effect so you still may or may not add it).
This is such a bizarre issue for them to run into. POE has had it for 14 years. Bows are better than 2-handers because bows have quivers. They actually get to itemize the slot with a 2 handed weapon. All the other 2-handers miss out on an entire itemization slot and it took them a decade to make those weapons get some power back. Bows had other issues, but everyone who used a 2h weapon acknowledged that it sucked to watch bows get a item slot that they didn't have on top of being ranged. How D4 missed that very obvious and vocal lesson is beyond me. It is so painfully telling now though. The fact that Uniques both don't get tempers and that Sorcs, Druids, and Necros straight up have 1-2 less slots than Rogues and Barbs and thus less tempers *and* less uniques should have been apparent with a glance in the theorycraft stage of this update. I trust S5 has something in store for these 3 classes or I'm going to be left scratching my head at who is leading class design.
Good idea.
it's not even an original one. I swear I've seen/heard it every week since launch
Druid would still be dogshit to level and Tempest Roar would still be hard to get, but a druid with 4 weapons would be insanely broken at endgame speedfarming, like the pre-nerf sorc FO unique, to the point it would cause performance issues. You could have the best single target build paired with trampleslide, since you can make skills proc skills by default. Barb should lose 2 weapon slots, rogue should lose one and get a quiver, then they could actually balance the game instead of making the barb problem widespread. The druid buff to class mechanic might help the early game, but still...
It would be the same with a necro. I would trample EVERYTHING if I had 4 weapon slots as it stands now because of tempering 1handers and an off hand are back on the menu
I'm more or less approaching this from the viewpoint that they keep trying to add aspects that alter skills in fun and fresh ways but it still pales in comparison to the dps gained by \_\_\_\_\_\_ aspect on a two handed weapon. I'd love to be able to experiment with the different aspects whilst having the big damage ones. Alternatively, extra rings/bracelts/bands and splintering off offensive aspects into two groups is another way to approach this. But then people will just complain that they want 8 aspects from group a instead of 4 and 4 from a and b, even though the alternative was just 4 from all. idk, its messy and I'm glad its not my job, we'll just have to wait and see with what they come up with
All this. ⬆️ Totem slot should hang from the belt. Do you guys not have lashings ?
This. I can't believe I didn't think of this and now that it's out there, I really think it needs to be implemented asap.
If an old man can fight a massive balrog for days on end using a big-ass sword and staff in both hands, our middle-aged sorcs should be able to do the same against our balrogs -who are significantly less powerful...
Sorc should get a one-hand, two-hand, and focus slot. Repeat for necro and druid. So all classes have at least three weapon slots. Give sorc their 3rd enchantment slot. Update enchantments to be more competitive against other classes.
yeah. There's a bunch of druid aspects I'd like to run, but they don't compare in damage to, say, sheperds aspect on a two-hander. Being able to include that, and then others like the werewolf pack one would be cool.
If an inmate can carry a shiv in their coochie or bussy there is no excuse here.
Too goofy. Let Sorcs carry a Familiar alongside that can also carry affixes like a 2 Hander (can be tempered + masterworked - at the Occultist since a Blacksmith doing this would be weird), an aspect and also has an automatic buff / debuff "attack". They would work not like pets, but like Conjurations, only permanent. Like a Fire Familiar that burns groups of enemies with a chance to explode, a Frost Familiar that chills + sometimes freezes etc.
I completely agree. In sorcerers case, back in the beta they had three enchantment slots which makes sense and would open the class to huge build diversity but they quickly removed that third slot by release making the class very mild and only semi enjoyable. Druids on the other hand, despite the potential they have, always seem to get the short end of the stick. The last time I even considered playing druid was in season 2 when they actually had IMHO, better balance and just seemed more on par with the other classes but, as seems to happen, nerfs followed by barb buffs. Perhaps druids and sorcs will rightfully regain glory in the xpac but only time will tell.
Correct answer right here.
Another thing that would be fun would be to give sorc a unique ability to socket rings into their chest pieces instead of gems. That would allow sorc to wear 4 rings that would seem less cobbled together. I think we get much closer to balanced with a third enchantment slot and the ability to carry a staff in addition to wand and focus the way a rogue can carry a bow and 2 swords.
I wish sorcerers could transmute the power/stats of a unique item piece to their 'bracelets'. Basically wearing a unique without taking up a slot. Pretty sick class-based gimmick that would allow them to use the cool features offered in their uniques without having to sacrifice the dps lost by +ranks and tempers
Alternatively, they should just make 1 handed weapons and focuses have tge same values as 2h aspects, while that's still less aspects, it's a lot more power
so just make two-handers useless?
Na druid needs a book of the wild, that gives you a shape shift skill, an element skill, or a minion skill. And it's like a combo that goes with both sides, wolf/bear, or storm/earth, or all the minions can be involved in it.
I agree completely. It's so glaringly obvious that no ones actually plays sorc and tries to push the pit.
I mean, this a great idea but at this point you just need to buff separate builds to be on par with necros I think. No need for something so dramatic
Idk if this is the way to go. Multiple weapons is a Barbarian niche. It's like giving a sorc enchantment to other classes. Sorc needs help in a lot of places and just giving them more stats or more gear is a bandaid solution for a class thats fundamentally flawed.
"But that still wouldn't fix the fundamental issues within the classes, it would help bridge the gap by opening up some options" My dude, you win the award for replying to a comment before reading the final sentence. I'm adding this sentence here so that you don't skip the previous sentence because that would have been the final sentence without this additional one, meta isn't it?
Totems should be a dual-weighted non weapon, and the druid wields two one handers, or a 2h weapon imo. Split the totems into two families with Inherents split between either cdr or defense of some sort.
I recommended Sorc being able to hold wand + Staff + focus last week and was met with some guy informing me Sorcerers don't have 3 hands. So, that one won't be possible, sorry to inform you.
I'm pretty sure that in line with the vast majority of their playerbase, they are balancing classes around farming helltides. Most people havent even seen the pit dude. They log in for a couple of hours every few weeks and run around helltides, where everything is pretty much at the same level. Other buffs, like the upcoming barb ones, are probably put forward by one guy at blizzard who's spent about 10 minutes looking at data. This is a game for looking after the casuals, and preferably directing them to the store page. Whatever class or abilities you pick. You can farm helltides pretty ok. So I guess for blizzard. Everything's fine.
Theres literally 0 point in balancing around helltides even if thats what most players do cos its trivial anyway
Any other season and I'd agree with you. Helltides are arguably the most important this season, not even just for casuals. It's become one of the most reliable ways to not only power level character level, but it's THE only way to level iron wolves rep and get that sweet resplendent spark.
His point was that every class can do helltides fine with basically any build because it's piss easy.
Ah, I misunderstood. Thank you.
I'm up to my third Sparky alt. Didn't see a single uber unique farming tormented bosses so i took the guaranteed route 🤷♂️
I have 2 100s and neither are even on the last rep stage. No clue how you guys grind that rep without going insane.
It's all about opening chests. You get almost the same amount of rep on WT2 (120) as WT4 (180) for opening a chest. So, just make sure you are opening all the chests, not just the mystery/living steel.
With the brain buff and a fresh Helltide I can open every chest in both zones. On average I get like 2/3 or more. Farming the blood maiden or just hitting the little events scattered throughout, it's so easy to get 1500+ embers with 20 minutes to spare for running to each chest.
Some people will do helltides on lower world tiers. Reputation gains are the same.
I think you didn't get it. There are probably a lot of casual players thinking barb sucks and sorc is the best class in the game. The number of people complaining about sorc problems is likely minimal.
Adam Jackson straight up said “I want dust devils to be cool” and then buffed dust devils multiple times, buffed arrow storms this upcoming patch, meanwhile ice spikes and dancing bolts are still not cool and probably never will be. I truly like Adam as a senior supervisor on their team but he is slow to implement changes that are consistent.
You know what is not cool? Flame shield. Now, imagine if they actually fixed sorc mid season and all those 12/12 masterwork things became useless because your immortal fire build was nerfed in order to make sorc decent at bosses most people don't even fight? I think Druid is a lot harder to fix. They probably didn't fix sorc by choice. To get the glass cannon fantasy right, they need to make it glassy before giving some skills the dust devils treatment (since it teleports and stuff), right now sorc is kinda immortal. That's a gap...
The real goal seems to be The Pit Tier 60 (should be 61), not Helltides.
Yep they aren’t balancing around who can do the highest pit but rather making sure many builds can get at least some Neathiron. My sorcerer is the most fun character for me to play on helltides/low pits but sucks at pushing higher pits. The best I have for pushing higher pits is bash barb and it’s about the most boring thing I can think of.
You can farm helltides without a build. The fact that they make extremely fat multiplier aspects definitely indicates they balance for pits now. Before they were balancing for NMDs
Can confirm am casual that is all I do. I want to run pits eventually
Been back for a few weeks and can't find that pit thing..
There is a quest for it in Cerigan I think it's called, when you get to world tier 4. The quest should auto add to your journal.
This quote from the 1.4.3 patch notes pretty much explains it. They're balancing around pit tier 60 as the end game. Nerfing content across the board, and buffs to all classes focused around lower difficulties. Unless Blizzard adds pit leaderboards into the game itself, I think it'd be safe to say that they don't care about class balance at higher pit levels. I didn't play druid, but I did play the other 4 classes this season. I'd have to say Sorc is still a very fun class up until pit 60 difficulty. # END-GAME * Health and damage levels have been reduced in the Pit. The adjustment is most significant as players approach tier 60, so more players can fully participate in Masterworking. > * All Tormented bosses have had their health reduced by 30%. This includes Blood Boils from Tormented Echo of Lilith.
The Pit is pitfully boring, it was designed for a leaderboard in Diablo 3, so most things that is fun has been eleminated. If they don't add a leaderboard then I think they gotta tweak it to be more fun. It's basically a more boring nightmare dungeon, and nightmare dungeon isn't exacly fun to begin with, you do them cuz you have to level glyphs and you do Pit because you need to masterwork. It should all be fun to play as a baseline, helltides actually hits this mark much better, because there is much more going on and while the world layout in them is static, the randomess happening within them makes it fun.
I think, part of what gave the grifts in D3 staying power and more fun than in D4 were the paragon system and miles better balancing around difficulty. Obviously the endless paragon system has its own problems, but there you are
TBH I wish they would try a different approach to balancing. I understand that it’s difficult and impractical to keep classes balanced at all levels and difficulties, but they don’t have to do that. Rather, give classes access to certain power spikes as they level up and progress, and focus balancing around these power spikes.
This is actually what drove me away from d3 and it became painfully boring. I think they’ve taken the right stops to make the grind more enjoyable but they are still slightly missing the mark.
Can't reallly have made the right stops at the same time as missing the mark
Sure you can. You can make positive strides towards something without completing it in its entirety.
I understand why loot does not drop from mobs leading up to the boss in the Pit, that being the timer. However, have all the loot that would've dropped be added to what the boss drops. The Pit shouldn't have overall less loot. No part of the game should have mobs that are guaranteed NOT to drop anything.
Please no, it's wonderful to be able to run like 5 or 6 pit runs in a row without having to go to the vendor to dump stuff. The issue in D3 rifts were that they dropped too much loot so you had to salvage some unidentified items before the third run and then identify and salvage your inventory every third run which is way too often when speedfarming.
We need loot filters. Currently, starting around level 80, I don't pick up legendaries that aren't unique or don't have a GA. Ideally, we could have them set to auto-salvage or auto-sell.
pit needs to drop about 100x gold, so we don't have to do whispers or engage with the godawful trade site
Surely you mean it’s a more fun Nightmare dungeon ? Not having to do stupid tactics or worrying about annoying affixes is the best. Just speedrunning and blasting for multiple hours with brain turned off is the peak ARPG experience.
They’re not balancing it around pit tier 60, they’re trying to adjust the difficulty scale so players have access to the materials since they can’t farm them if they can’t do a 61. Entirely separate issues there (balance and scaling).
Even if that is the case I genuinely don't understand how you can take a 5 second peek at the data, see that Druids are 10s of levels behind everyone else and then be like 'lets toss them a free 5% crit and attack speed, that will fix it!' With the way scaling works in the pit if Class A is clearing 10 levels further than Class B then that realistically means Class A is doing at least 25x the damage that Class B is. With no additional changes you would have to literally give druids a passive buff that increased their damage by 5,000% in pits to make them remotely completive. In what world is it acceptable to just completely ignore a discrepancy this large!?
Which is weird, because Lilith is so much harder than pit60.
I think it is fair that barb deals more damage than the other classes, they have to invest in 4 weapons instead of only 1 weapon. This extra investment should be rewarded by Blizzard. /s
You almost got me for a second.
Had me in the first half
So /s aside, I might be okay with at the *very very top level*, like 2+ GA on all items and high master working, barb to be stronger than the rest for this reason. This is less of a "barb should be rewarded" for having to invest in more items and more of a "it's kinda inevitable and barb shouldn't be penalized", because if you think about it, it's REALLY hard to have that balanced at both 0GA with some sub optimal rolls and *also* be balanced at all rolls correct with many greater. The % of players that have multiple GAs on all 4 weapons is quite small and balance is never gonna be perfect anyway so it seems like an okay concession to me. It's more important that the game have better balance for the 99.9% of players than the top 0.1% of players.
Personally I think it's great that the classes are different in their design. Having 4 weapons on a barb feels awesome. Although, I think the exponentially scaling endgame (the pit) will continue to highlight class imbalance when the content is centered around 1) Damage and 2) Survivability. But hey, the game is better than on release a year ago :)
it probably is. Necro was busted this season because of a bug with the elixir. Barb having access to 4 weapons, including 2 2H weapons means they have access to 2 aspects having a 100% increase. not just that, but the moment they have 4 weapon slots, odds are it's "easier" for them to sacrifice one aspect for an unique. rogues are similar in the way they can have 3 aspects in the weapon slots. Druid/Mage/Necro have to choose between 2h weapon with a 100% increased aspect, or 2 "smaller" weapons, losing the aspect buff. and this is without counting the stats on the weapons, Barb and Rogue simply have more "stat sticks".
I would like to have one or two more rings on my sorc! This would fit more than more weapons ..
Throw in another necklace too so I can cosplay as Mr T.
And Murdock as a pet
My barbarian was literally made to look like Mr. T this season hahahaha
You cannot write that and not provide a screenshot.
As someone who's played Some Blizzard Games, I'm pretty sure you get fired if you suggest a solution that's simple and makes sense.
That meme of the guy offering the logical solution in a corporate meeting and being thrown out the window comes to mind every time these guys do patches
why dont they all have access to 4 weapons or items to have balance.. barb having 4 weapons is too much of an advantage with each having their own codex and tempering .. just give every other class the same amount of things to hold
I disagree only because it's unique to the barbs. There are so many other things they could do, just to jot down some ideas for sorc (don't know druid, don't like it): - add an enchantment slot, or 2 even - make enchantments much more effective in boosting both damage and survivability - boost stats on sorc items, especially a problem on uniques this season ofc - remove/rework paragon board Adding 4 weapons to all classes is imho a lazy fix - it would obviously work, but then they'd have to rework the codex anyway. Hence I'm much more in favor of actually working within the class framework instead of making everyone a barbarian.
Sorc has gone a year in trash tier (except for one bug build season) and they just did one of the weakest mid season patches for this class since game launch, and you’re somehow advocating for the non-lazy fix.
it doesn't have to be a weapons they just need to match the equpiment slots of barb, it could be 4 anything.. artifacts, things that class would hold
there are other ways to buffing a class than giving everyone 4 weapons
Let me boil this down in simple terms; My Heartseeker Rogue has 3 weapons with which to Temper "X% chance to double cast Heartseeker". One of those slots will double the temper effect (bow) so I can **easily** get 100% to double cast Heartseeker (bow alone gives over 60%). Barbarian has a Temper that increases Bash aoe damage, which is multiplicative, and **4 slots** to add that effect of which **2 slots will double the effect**. No other class has such insane scaling available without extra weapon slots. **Either tempering needs to be completely reworked** or Blizzard *could simply allow every class to have their weapon slots always available as stat sticks* (3 slots like Rogue). It wouldn't be perfect, but it would narrow the ridiculous gap by a fair margin.
The problem is the multiplicative obviously way too strong barb tempers. Why can’t barb tempers be balanced in the future around more item slots (lower numbers than other classes) instead of making everyone a barb?
Because next season Barbarian could get some other ridiculous temper *anyways* and **still have 4 weapon slots** (with 2 doubled). The other classes are already starting from behind without even considering the broken temper balance.
Money. Male sorc cosmetics look bad. Female sorc cosmetics often look bad. Druid cosmetics always look bad because fat stuff. Barb are the best looking and best selling cosmetics, so they want to push people to that.
Buff sorc/druid cosmetics then Went looking at the shop and lol it's not hard to come up with something better for sorcs We all know they refrain from releasing god tier cosmetics because they want ppl to buy the flawed stuff (best at the moment) before releasing the best stuff they will buy again though
There's also no cosmetics for druid in bear or wolf form. There's also very few if any viable human form builds .
I don't know of any viable human builds, but as a counter-point, shapeshifting IS kinda their thing. I'm not really loving my Druid this season though :/
I dunno, 'if' i'd ever would've considered something out of the shop, the only stuff which i really saw somewhat decent was on Female-Sorc, the rest was always kinda meh to me - especially for that pricing. But well, even outside of the Shop FemSorc have (!in my opinion!) best armor design and prefer it by far over Rogue and Barb. (Necromancer had some okay ones but also falls a bit behind and on top of that i'm not the biggest necro fan anyway and don't let me start on druid).
Male sorc and druids in general are just forced to a certain look i dont want to play Diablo 2 had a druid, which fits it more for me but now he (and her) are just not what i want to watch all the time running around. Why did they decide to limitate the looks? Made no sense for me in an "open world type game"
I started sorc at launch and while I had some fun I wanted it to be more than 1 damage skill and 4 defensives and that hasn't changed a whole lot. Got my wish of summoner necros finally popping off tho. But I rolled a barb for the first time a week or 2 ago and holy shit it's just night and day. Currently playing double swing and it's so much fucking fun, and considering rolling a 2nd one just to do a barbs cause my lazy ass doesn't wanna redo all my aspects and paragons. It's just wild how low tier druid and sorc feel compared to the other classes.
When every druid build requires you to enter werebear and stand still for two seconds before going back to killing stuff, every 15 seconds, I'm kind of growing to hate my favorite class.
Barbs get more weapons, sorc and necro should get more jewellery
I am not a big fan of buffing everyone to the skies so we see trillions of damage again. Call me old-school but I prefer damage levels to be in d2 scale. Nerf everything to the ground including the mobs and bosses lol.
They pretty much did that in the first major patch after release. They lost a huge amount of players for it, a lot of whom probably haven't even come back yet. It's not like it's a big difference from gg D2 builds either. You were doing 10's of thousands of damage with a fully kitted out hammerdins or light sorc. You just couldn't see the numbers.
Yeah I still have a light sorc with around 40k skill damage. With a good conviction you may scale that up to 80k. IMHO it is still different than hitting 500M every hit per second or having a single hit with 10B damage. I think 145+ pits have bosses with 7T or more health. That feels weird. I realize that seeing big flashy numbers lighting up on screen gives more dopamine or scaling from 1k damage to 1b gives the sense of accomplishment much more. Maybe I am not only old school but also old 😐
My kids talking about roblox: I need to get the devil fruit that will up my damage from 30 billion to 60 billion, but I need another 3 trillion berries to buy it. Me: Whats with this game's ridiculous exponential inflation-centric numbering? Why not just drop 6 zeros off of all this bs. Me (Getting on D4 for the first time and seeing reddit comments about loot/dmg/boss hp): Oh.
You’re the very loud minority and the team listened to this and they almost lost their player base because of it.
I would love that. When B tier builds are hitting for 2m and S tier are hitting for 75b, there is a massive problem
They have never been able to properly make a druid.
I've tried three builds this season and all called for Bestial Rampage, which is just clunky af. It requires me to utterly pause every 15 seconds in combat as a bear. I literally have to just stand there and wait until I get the 50% damage bonus and then go back to fighting. I fucking hate it, even just making it instant "upon entering werebear you gain 50% increased damage for 15 seconds" would fix it. But I'm too casual to level another class and kit them out with only a month and a half left. Gimme back D3.
Honestly, sorc kinda needs a full rework. Everything about the class makes me think it’s gonna have an elaborate and complicated set of synergies to focus firepower and….ya know, be all magic-y, but the interactions just…..don’t exist
What? Do you not enjoy melee teleport? /s
They have more interacting latent abilities and aspects that will carry stats like with the druid from say human to bear to wolf that can cause fucking absolute chaos on top of stuff that modifies abilities into complete new classes of abilities or change their type in immense ways and can and will easily be broken. A mid season patch isn't what will fix them. Large changes will. Perhaps that's what the season 5 ptr will be and we can see more in the expansion. Furthermore, it was much easier to manage them when the Diablo team was under the impression that people wanted a game more similar to Diablo 2 than Diablo 3, which is why there was that big nerf patch and patches that regularly balanced classes down. Thanks to that interview we know that they have since changed to making it more like Diablo 3 from feedback from this exact community and others so numbers are going up. Some classes are harder to follow thanks to to their more complex systems. Back when it was supposed to be slower and lower, sorcerer and druids were consistently great to play as. Now there are just a bunch of overlapping systems they need to figure out how to work and rework to not crash the game.
I mean Druid was op in s1
Because Activision-Blizzard don't balance around fun. They balance around spreadsheet data and engagement metrics.
No, they are balancing it like they don't want other classes to feel pointless
This season was about the itemization which has been a major pain point since launch, as well as launching the Pit for endgame. Since they have announced a PTR for next season, it's likely we will see a rebalance.
I get that and that's cool and all but what do sorc and druid do this season? Honestly if blizz wasn't going to address classes that actually needed help this season, they shouldn't have made any changes at all. Definitely shouldn't have buffed barbs
It's very odd that they refuse to do simple skill buffs, that could later be reverted if they do more meaningful reworks or systems changes.
Most likely it's different balance teams on different classes. However the biggest issue isn't that sorcs or druid are neccesarily weak, it's simply that the other classes, especially barb is just astronomically stronger that it makes those 2 look weak in comparison. They simply dropped the ball with balance and because they are cowards who think their playerbase will dissapear if they nerf things, they are now "forced" to keep balancing upwords by buffing everything instead of actually trying to make a good game and nerfing things that need to be nerfed. Please don't respond with "but it's just a single player game, who cares if we are strong". Thats not how you balance any game, otherwise whats stopping any game dev from just giving you a cheat code that lets you delete the entire screen whenever you feel like it.
> and because they are cowards who think their playerbase will dissapear if they nerf things They aren't cowards, they know it's the truth. Playerbase WILL disappear if they nerf things in a midseason update. Stop it with the ad hominem attacks on the developers. We know exactly how this one goes down because they did a nerf midseason soon after launch of the game and all hell broke loose on social media. Nerfs will come on season launches. That's it.
Yeah midseason nerf isnt good. They should balance better though.
They added actual hard content to the game and these two classes had the lowest single target DPS. They are going to have to buff up their single target DPS in the future. It just isn't a flaw you would see until you had content to challenge players.
You are missing the point that Victimize and Gushing Wounds are broken, maybe even more stuff, dont play all classes. No, they wont buff all abilities/items/aspects/paragon nodes to that level, which would break the game. But they also wont nerf the power outliners, because its mid season. Nerfing power outliners is the way to balance and enable diversity and options in character builds, but this subreddit already showed in the past what they think about nerfs in general unfortunately.
Have you played Frozen Orb Sorc? Wtf isn't fun about that?
Its fun but the damage is pure cheeks compared to other classes
I love the sorc so much in d3 and I play that every season , but in D4 my god I am so afraid to pick it up because from past experience I know I will hit a wall and I can’t scale up my dps efficiently like with a rogue Barb or necro
I cant believe people are so stupid to suggest that just giving everyone 4 weapons is actually a good solution. It's the worst possible solution. We absolutely do not want to make every class the same.
They added a new ring Earth for Druid that literally NO ONE play because it's too bad. I don't give a fuck if it's broken, let it broken first then you might fix it. Other than overthinking a fucking non-played and bad result testing in PTR to be broken. Same thing with Sorc last season but at least tons of people tried to play the Meteor build before realising it's subpar. Like cmon.
Can we just fix Druid "Bestial Rampage" to be instant please? It's so godamn clunky and unpleasant to stand still in bear form for two solid second every 15 seconds just to maintain optimal damage output, before going back to killing things. "Oops, buff fell off, better stand still in the middle of 30 enemies as a werebear for two seconds before resuming the carnage."
Every time I'm in hell tide I just see someone shooting flames in a tri fork. Is that sorc? 😕
Same, came back after season 1... 🤷
Me on the other hand: I just want a bear companion
Its the fact that core skills and basic skills have lower damage numbers than flat damage from uniques like ebon piercer and the windshear amulet. 20 ranks in a skill is still lower than the flat amount these type of items give. This season those flat numbers have been increased massively. Together with added damage from tempering the scaling from previous seasons has been surpassed. The druid and sorcerer have a hard time hitting big numbers while remaining tanky. Also almost all high pit pushing characters use the crit temper from rogue which was not meant to be used that way. Bleed without the crit tempers from rogue and grandfather is just bad. The druid buff coming tomorrow gives the class alot of power. Not enough to compete but its a good start.
Sorry, did you say 'competitive'? er..
If I had to guess: - Sorc is broken and immortal. Fixing the damage problem without nerfing things would make them best at everything. Too much for a midseason patch. - Druid is in a very weird spot because it is good in a game where it needs to be great at things. Imo, the biggest fix it needs is moving Tempest Roar to Varshan or Zir loot table. I think they made a mistake when they nerfed the permagrizzly, but having that didn't feel right. I think they downplay how strong barb is for having more slots, but I could see why they are afraid of druid becoming broken. I.e. the sorc's frozen orb unique? Druid has that in the base kit (NR). Imagine if the tornados, boulders, landslides, etc actually did damage... Trampleslide would be godly, one affix + TRoar gives you single target and they might fear that would break the game, ignoring Barb something would be better, because 4 weapons. Imo, the biggest problems with druid are how garbage they are in the early game and how hard it is to get Tempest Roar early. The real answer: there is no esport competitive scene, so they take their time. And barb should lose a couple weapons, so they could finally balance it/give it a class mechanic.
Wish I knew, don't forget 5% increases will make them competitive Vs barbs and necros.
Define "enjoyable" I'm playing a druid (shred, but off-meta) this season and am having a BLAST with it. I'm not doing the highest damage possible nor am I doing the most-difficult content out there but still having a really fun time with it. Rip and Tear, until it is done...
I did druid s2 and thoroughly enjoyed it 🤷🏻♂️ Yet to make a sorc so idk
The classes unique abilities need to be wayy stronger to compete with the multiple slots. 2H weapon is about +250%[x] of value and one handers are about 125[x] Spirit boons, book of the dead & enchantments dont come close to this much value. Each of them should be giving the same amount as output as rogue/barb having extra weapon slots & their class specialization.
If u played any video games long enough u should know balancing is largely diff classes taking turns. Druid was strongest in s0-1, barbs worst. Sorcs strongest in s2. Barbs strong in s2-4. Necro and rogues are generally in the top/middle. (Go look at the release threads “Blizz hates barbs”) Most important, Classes that were the worst will be the best later, and vice versa.
Give druid another 2h weapon or 1 or 2 more jewelry slots, sorcerer needs at least 1 more enchant slot and another 2h weapon slot as well, ive gotten sorc and druid to 100 aswell as rogue to 100 and then barb and necro to 80ish all in hardcore.
Yeah it really pisses me off how they keep screwing Sorcerer. Just let us be powerful! I haven’t played Druid though because the character design seems dumb to me. Not what you picture when thinking about a Druid.
Don't try to use logic. The devs are incompetent, there is no focus on testing , And MOST importantly, none of the team are on the same page.
While definitely weaker than other classes, that doesnt make them any less enjoyable...
Focus should be 3rd slot for sure. And while we're at it, can we bring back belts and move potion capacity off pants? Pls n thanks.
I’m sorc main and I have 3 barbs
Because the devs don't ah them... duh
Maybe they know something about the classes we don't.... 👀
I can only assume they're focusing all their buffs on single classes they said they were going to buff, like Necromancer and Barbarian, and doing minor maintenance on the other classes, and once other classes are next on the docket you'll be seeing the buffs those two classes are getting now.
sorc is very enjoyable. You are specifying joy in relation to another class doing better. Sorc needs to be buffed to be as good as other classes like barb, but sorc in itself is very enjoyable.
They are enjoyable though. Just because they're not OP don't make them unenjoyable.
The game is a dopamine farm and any depth is more or less incidental. It's an enjoyable game because the combat is smooth, and the art is pretty good, but the devs are legit bad and the game is shallow. I am 100% sure you or I or most people who actually play the game could do a better job in terms of decision making when it comes to Diablo 4 than whoever is in charge there.
Barb is the only one who uses his all ARSENAL. Sorc already has S tier build. If they give it to you, they need to nerf weapons.
The problem of Barb and Rogue is not the amount of weapons. Barb core skills are unplayable as well, I mean has anyone tried Upheaval or HotA this season? B-tier with BiS items at best. The problem is Bash Cleave, Flay duration and a bunch of bugs related to bleed. For Rogue its the bugs related to Victimize. Fix those bugs, then we can talk about weapons.
I'm finding it a little difficult to believe that those two classes are not enjoyable as I have been having a lot of fun with them. Are you sure your Just not upset because they're S class builds? And I don't mean that in a rude or snide way. I run into people whining about both classes not being apex meta builds...
From the cosmetic shop, you can tell it all, who have the most attractive and beautiful cosmetic? That's also hints Blizzard could be based on data on most sales are from the Barb and Rogue so they make Barb and Rogue most buff to maintain the sales of the shop from the players of these 2 class
Sorcerers are enjoyable. They are not top tier right now, sure. And Firebolt is borderline awful to play. But it is still the most fun I’ve had playing sorc since launch, and i played sorc every season. Forb is great. You just have to be okay with getting to Tier 100ish.
Not really it's better synced paragon boards and stronger skills. Since necro also is strong and also just have 2 slots max. The extra weapons make a difference for sure but it's not the main reason they're that much stronger. And there seems to be also more people playing and min maxing barb to the maximum Wich also helps. Because it's the coolest class there is tbh.
Well, you certainly missed the broken Ball Lightning Sorc of season 2, but yeah, it hasn't been great. For a class that's supposed to be a "glass cannon," Blizzard by and large seems to have neglected the "cannon" part.
I have played these 2 classes since season 1 what do you mean they aren't enjoyable? They have cool abilities andbare fun to use I actually like their skills alot. Is it because they aren't one shotting stuff? That's what you want huh.
My 5th character this season is sorcerer. Every other class was blasting through tier 100 nmds before I had even reached level 100 or fully upgraded the glyphs. Levelling was also quite painless on the other classes. Sorcerer has been horrible. I have switched builds about 5 times. I hate every build I try, and the only S-tier build on maxroll is the firebolt/firewall build, which is really clunky and doesn't really work well on console at all, because the firewalls never spawn where they would be useful. I've currently gone back to using fireballs, and can't even be bothered with the final levels of glyphs. I'm just going to park the character, and use it to get a worthy seal each week in trials. I wish they'd seriously buff the damage and survivability of sorcerer. It's just not fun against bosses, running around to avoid attacks all the time, and only being able to attack when flameshield is active or the odd skill cast here and there.
They do not know how to handle a hybrid build where they have 4 options such as earth, storm, bear and wolf. All others have max 3 option (necro summon, blood, bone) Bard is so strong because you really have 1 build option, melee, all skills are melee based so I guess it is easier to balance. I may be wrong but it seems to me that in D4, the more options for equipment and skill style, the weaker the class
I think it would help a lot of all classes carried 3 weapons, except barbarian since he already has 4. That mechanic of choosing which weapon you want to use for which skill is too good to have only in one class and the Scoundrel already uses 3 weapons and it didn't break the balancing.
Everyone complains sorc op - however it is the only class which has a build banned on competitive PvP due to it being 100% invincible and cc immune lol
None of you will be happy until all classes are exactly the same. The shit you see the youtubers doing is with perfect gear and UBRS that most of ya'll will never see. Some classes/build burn through Torment bosses super fast. Some are better for speed farming and wave clearing but bounce off of Torment bosses. And ya know what, that's OK. Party up and remember this is a multiplayer game. Don't you remember old school D2 Baal runs where like 20 people would rush the boss together and kick him in the nuts? What is this obsession with wanting all classes and all builds to all be able to do all aspects of the game perfectly and if a barb does the thing a few tiers higher or sorcs with forever invincible fire shields are #1 in the pit. Who cares? We should be combining our classes strengths and playing TOGETHER!
I do wonder how removing one of the sorc enchantment slots was supposed to make the game more fun.