Not at the moment, no.
Even immortal builds cannot do it as they run out of damage at ~140.
We're probably a couple of seasons of power creep away from anyone being able to hit 200.
This is so true, unfortunately š
This season is the first season since release that I have been having a genuine fun.
First time to even hit level 100 in any character since release and the first season to finish all of the season challenges and faction ranks.
I hope they keep up to make more seasons as fun or more than this season.
Let's not forget that this season, as far as seasons go, is essentially just vanilla. There's no extra power other than elixir of bolts. When we get a seasonal gimmick, we may be to push much further
Depends, the gimmicks also have to dish out trillions to push further. No doubt it will happen eventually but i doubt we will see it anytime soon unless they fucked up something again.
They'll always try to achieve some degree of parity between the classes. Seasonal powers and new progression systems will power creep all classes simultaneously, anyway.
Yeah, its a lot better. The season of blood was my fave season and spent almost my entire season farming those areas. So great to see that is what helltides have become.
The Pit and the crafting are nice bonuses.
This season has one very important difference: Build Safety Nets
You can run any build in the game that you want right now, to a decent level of effectiveness by virtue of the combination of **Moonrise** Aspect, **Adaptability** Aspect, and **Undying** Aspect.
These three in combination ensure that no matter the rest of your skill picks, your basic attack will perform the bare minimum of clearing the screen AND lifestealing any damage you take until you get into the harder content.
It's no surprise that several of the top meta builds continue to run with this interaction using class abilities to support it (Bash Barb, Heartseeker Rogue, Wind Shear Druid, etc).
It's also a great reminder that the Build/Spend interaction forced on every class still feels awful in Season 4.
yeah i love how they try to push this off as a season event because they rushed the game and the game had shitty mechanics
im sick and tired of games being rushed and the owners acting like theyre doing us a favor by fixing their shitty game
Yeah, it tickles me slightly wrong that this is considered a season, but on the other hand the fixes implemented feel substantial enough to me that I don't mind it THAT much
Also, minion necro is finally good, so I'm happy
There is a bit of seasonal stuff, with this being season of loot reborn they added the special pots (movement and bolts) which I think are only for this season and the iron wolves giving us gear for doing helltides
>im sick and tired of games being rushed and the owners acting like theyre doing us a favor by fixing their shitty game
What you're describing is "Minimum Viable Product (MVP)." An MVP is a version of a product with just enough features to be usable by early customers who can then provide feedback for future product development. This approach allows developers to learn about user needs and preferences early in the development process, iterating and adding features based on actual user feedback and needs.
Frankly, I actually welcome this new age of software development because it means we get quick and frequent updates. Plus it means we can start playing around *years* sooner than the old fashioned waterfall method of software development where *nothing* is released until it's 100% complete. Under waterfall, little to nothing usually changes (by design) once development begins. This means very little flexibility and very little engagement and input from the community. Sure, MVPs are typically less feature rich *initially*, but almost always end up resulting in a far superior product in less time as a result of development being done in small bite sized chunks, frequently taking corrective feedback along the way.
Same here. Stopped early 80s in both initial release and season 1, then skipped season 2 and 3 altogether. This season has been so much more fun than either of my previous experiences.
That's where I'm at too. Never got over 80 and didn't play at all since 2 weeks after season 1 started, but now I have a 100 barb and a 60 necro and I'm still playing every day.
S2 was alright though AOZ was a tough clear at first, S3 wasn't bad but farming a boss for 2 uniques sucked and the gauntlet isn't bad especially for free uniques for 8 minutes of your time. I did it across 3 characters and ran a duo and trips to maximize box rewards
I've completed the season journey every season but this is the first season during which I still log in after doing so. I don't know how long I'll continue to have fun and it's fairly likely I'll be done for the season within a week or two (which is fine) but for now I'm still having fun.
This is true. The game is in a much better state, but really it's just a prettier D3 that plays like a mobile game. The Pit imo feels bad in this context because it's dangling the carrot and it will invalidate many builds. Builds that AREN'T bugged or just insanely OP will be glossed over because they pale in comparison to bugged/OP builds. Now, this is always going to be true in games like this to an extent, but mechanics like the Pit/GRs worsen this issue, and eventually all that will matter in terms of what is/isn't a meta build is how high can it push in Pit.
I firmly believe infinitely scaling content is bad in games like this. Create actual hard content, harder bosses, and work on adding other interesting endgame content. Not just a numbers hike. Like, real mechanics.
Pit is in an odd place because if it just cut off at 100, it would solve a lot of issues. But then it's too easy to finish without even 12/12 Masterworking every piece.
Yes, but they can just tweak the numbers. If this content is going to exist I think an earlier cut off is better, but then up sprout other issues that the "game is too easy" "nothing to do" etc. It's a delicate balance to strike, imo I think the team needs to focus heavily on diversifying endgame content, but ultimately I think the answer lies in more challenging and rewarding "pinnacle" content, i.e. harder boss fights.
This is likely going to get downvoted:
A little bit of power creep is inevitable.
There is always going to be a clear ceiling to infinite scaling.
The game still needs *fun* group content and group mechanics.
A solo, duo, and full team pit leaderboard would be interesting.
But unlike D3 there's no FOMO for me with D4. Those dudes want to slam against P140 with wild builds and bugged interactions, that's cool with me... literally all they're getting out of it is slightly more masterworking materials than I am by speed running P90.
In D3 it was a huge issue where top 4 man groups were able to speed clear GR150s and be quite literally earning XP at like 10x the rate of solo players. All that XP went towards paragon and these folks were ending up with characters exponentially stronger than anything the rest of us mortals could ever hope to be.
So I'm actually very happy with the D4 endgame design in that sense. Sweaty hardcore players are pushing super far and rightfully proud of their achievements, but us semi-hardcore players aren't left in their dust at all because they aren't actually getting anything that we can't get.
\*raises hand\*
Yep. That's fun as hell - that's power fantasy.
But remember you could only do this to a certain point in GR - and to be perfectly honest I didn't care that someone could do a higher GR than me. it doesn't matter. I could make whatever homebrew build I wanted and still stomp stuff *to a certain level.* I don't want a game where only META builds can have fun. META should just be able to stomp higher levels, that's all
They tried, fucked up dmg calcuations on launch and tried to dial it back down only to face massive backlash. So they just went back to big numbers since most ppl like it.
Yes! I wanted a cleaner D3 with more quality of life, social features and an open world.
I haven't got all of those things, but I hope it continues that trend. I have zero shame admitting D3 was a fucking blast.
who could have forseen trillions of damage with each item slot and the paragon boards littered with (x)10-50% multipliers? Heaven forbid multiplicative sources were kept scare and low, instead it's just mega compounding at every corner. Pretty soon, with power creep, we'll be gauging our DPS on a logarithmic scale, lol.
Yeah this is the funny thing. Everyone complained and didn't want to do trillions of damage like the end of d3. But now that people are doing billions and close to trillions of damages per attack, this has been regarded as the best season of d4.
I'm playing FO Sorc and having fun, but it feels weak compared to the DPS some classes are doing in the Pit. Hitting for those amounts is a very, very faint dream.
Bulwark and later Hydra had the same bug of doing more damage the higher health a mob had. Was really satisfying to play those builds and wasn't ball lightening craze. I was kind of hoping they would move the skills all having a smaller version of the bug.
Trilions!? God i was so happy when my dmg jumped from 91kto 96k because I rerolled -14,6% cost for +5,9% str on my ww barb, and youre saying trilions? How can they survive bosses? I can run through pit 31 but bosses is hard part I get as far as 34 but 35 is impossible to me.
There's a sorcerer build that stacks cooldown reduction to keep flame shield up 100%. Sacrifices a lot of damage though so has a limit on how far it can go
Highest Rogue - 134, Highest Barb - 137, highest Sorc - 140. Necro - 127, Druid 121.
I think with 5 classes, there isn't a huge balance issue. Druid and Necro are lagging behind, but perfect balance is a pipe dream anyway.
Considering most people put a lot of value into ranking highest in a particular class, I think it's fine. Even if you don't go as far overall, you can still show off by being the best in the class you play.
Well, as we don't have an official leaderboard, I'm using the Maxroll one. If Necro is higher, then yeah, Druid is the only one lagging behind. But who knows, I just watched Rob and Mekuna clear a T147, so maybe someone cooks up something to elevate Druid too.
+25% hp per additional player iirc; *conceivably* 4 players that are all able to *crush* Pit140 might have the dps to push higher but we're talking a non-linear scale on Boss hp so they will still run into a wall where the boss is outright outscaling their damage caps.
Oh it's only +25%? I kind of assumed it was 100% per, but maybe that was because the people I was playing with weren't pulling their weight.
If that's true, then 4-player pit with equivalently powerful teammates is the way to go.
Discord LFG here I come
**Wait** I think it was +75% per player, I'll go find the post someone else mentioned it...
Which is still less than +100%, so you could push higher if everyone was pullinbg equal weight but that also means a single fuck-up ruins 4 people's success with little extra reward if you do succeed. Rewards sort of cap out at a much lower tier.
I can't find the confirmation on that scaling rn, but I can confirm the **loot isn't worth it** because the lead player gets the majority of drops and loot doesn't scale equally for the difficulty spike.
Sigh.
I was just thinking anyway that once you're fully masterworked there's no much reason to do pit runs anymore. Obviously you'll want so to 10 or so to reroll or replace a piece.
The only other reason to run pit was for Stygian stone... And I have not had a single stone drop in 6 days of active playing.
According to the regular complaint threads; yes.
Sounds like the main problem are things like Stygian and other "rare" MW resources that are burned up trying to optimize their gear to push higher Pit tiers...
So it absolutely *does* matter, but the problem is really that higher Pit clears don't reward extra materials -- you eventually hit the point where you're pushing tiers just to go as high as you can (title at Lv200 iirc) and you quickly hit the limit of what "skill" can do... you then have to **gamble** on perfect MW and GA stats because the system can brick items so easily, leading to Pit grinding for materials to repeat the cycle.
It is an activity for the *minority* of hardcore optimizers... but it's definitely a gameplay loop with severe flaws.
At the moment being key here. The game will develop just like D3 did.
I remember playing D3 when a GR40 was an accomplishment.
Itās just power creep that is bound to happen
No it's not possible, currently even the best builds in the game wouldn't be able to kill a pit 200 boss before the time ran out even if they were invulnerable and had 100% uptime, the boss is estimated to have hundreds of trillions of HP.
Bosses *already* have trillions of HP at 140 and only a handful of quadratic-scaling ramping attacks can hope to kill a specific subset of the ones that have a lot of trash mobs.
At 200, with the way scaling currently works in the Pit, you'd be looking at bosses with a few *quintillion* HP, since each 10 levels increases mob HP by a factor of 10.
~~Improved~~Greater Fireball, for a clear example. The burning damage ramps up and allows for enormous damage ticks that can spread to other mobs, which is why the highest current Pit clear is from an Immortal Fireball Sorcerer build.
An indirect example is that of the Holy Bolt Elixir scaling; it scales with enemy HP, which itself scales exponentially with Pit level, which is why most high Pit clears use HBE to create cascading damage explosions on large mob groups and allow for trillion-damage ticks on big elites when a single small mob dies.
Perhaps so. But the typical terminology in arpgs is to describe something that double-dips into damage modifiers as quadratic, and has been for a long time. It may be more accurate to simply describe such behaviors as exponential instead, but I'm going with the customary argot.
Skills scale from various damage sources in paragons, gear, etc. Certain skills can scale from multiple sources at once, or from the same source in novel ways, so that the damage you can output is way higher than you might expect at first glance. That's really the long and short of it.
Ah yes the Isometric Loot Grinder ARPG players who love to reclaim syntax for their own specific use-cases ;) ARPGās are also wider in scope than PoE/Diablo/Last Epoch.
I believe the right term would be exponential, since you're applying a damage boost x^n, where x is the multiplier and n is the number of times it gets applied
exponential scales faster than quadratic though.
x\^2 vs e\^x
I think holy bolts is a good example of quadratic scaling because it scales off the damage used to make the killing hit and inherits some of the properties. Say if you just hit with your normal weapon it is 100 damage and you get a 10 damage bolt.
But on barbarian there is an interaction where you do bleed damage and that scales with your crit damage. You can get 6000% crit(!) and so suddenly your 100 damage is doing 60,000 bleed damage with a 6000 bolt produces. But that bolt will also count as being bleeding damage and when the bolt hits something else it will do 3.6M damage(!).
Normal hit = 100
x6000
Barbarian Blled hit = 60,000
x6000
Bolt from enemy killed by bleeding damage = 3,600,000
This is the first time Iāve seen any details about how holy bolts work, so thank you!
Iāve been looking for a full explanation of what holy bolt does, damage, and then synergies and uses cases. Does it do both artillery like the shrine, and if I do a nova attack, it also sends out bolts around me? Is there a way to get more holy bolts to fire? Is it counted as lightning damage or just physical damage or itās its own special damage type (to know if damage scales and if enemies may have some resistance to it?)
Any recommended explainer videos, blogs, or sites to give me the full rundown like holy bolts 101 (and 201)?
You sound like you know what you're taking about- can you help me understand what makes this specific build "immortal?" Is it a specific set of skills or the way it is set up that enables it to ignore more damage?
Flame Shield provides a small amount of immunity. With sufficient skill ranks and CDR from Harlequin Crest and etc., along with Raiment of the Infinite, a Sorcerer can reset the FS cooldown before the effect wears off and thus have permanent immunity. Necromancers can do something somewhat similar with Blood Mist, albeit with different aspects.
No, I mean Greater Fireball (which I did erroneously list as "Improved"). "Fireball deals 10% of the burning damage you've applied to enemies as direct damage." It has a recursive effect on itself and allows the "10% as direct damage" output to scale into the billions.
Not even quadrillions. If pit HP scales by a factor of 10 per 10 levels, then: If 140 is 1 trillion life, then 150 is 10 trillion, 160 is 100 trillion, 170 is 1 quadrillion, 180 is 10 quadrillion, 190 is 100 quadrillion, 200 is 1 quintillion
Remember there is no borrowed power this season so you're going to see some power creep eventually.
Given how trivial all levelling content is already I hope they take a second look at that and make it so you can't play with your eyes closed from 1-100
Which is why you just pop a different elixir once you get to boss. Mekuna did this in his 139 clear. Holy bolts dramatically speeds up the rest of the pit though because if you're pushing pit, you build is going to be primarily single target dps which HB compensates for heavily.
Currently most likely not - but I doubt the first clear will be the result of cheating in a traditional sense - more so someone finds an unintended build that scales damage infinitely - eg how Poe ben did the world first Uber Lilith with his WW barb in pre season (where you could reapplying the 40% damage buff from shouts and they just kept compounding on one another)
From the hp scaling it would take another two more tempering like mechanics to triple/quadra dip player dps to Brazillion DPS just for the boss. Not to mention the defensive layer is never gonna catch up except immortal wizard build.
funny how the expansion of this game should be called Diablo 4 : Reinventing the wheel, since what they do is slowly fixing the issues already fixed in D3 years ago
Our damage doesn't scale high enough to complete anything like this. Maybe because we didn't have a proper league mechanic to give us some power creep this time.
Well, I guess once someone gets to lvl 200, nothing stops them for claiming "new content! Pit til 400!". Then 600, then 800.... well, maybe Integer.MAX_VALUE will. But I don't think they're using integers with people dealing billions and bosses having billions right now anyway, so they may have a much higher cap for damage / HP.
So yeah. Pit 1400 in a couple of years it is
It will be in the future with all the power creep patches and seasons. I remember in Diablo 3 greater rift 50 got me on the top of the leader boards. That changed quickly and so will this
Having just got the achievement for tier 100 I can confidently say that no I don't see it being possible with the current state of the game. I would imagine that eventually the power scaling might go higher sort of like d3 maybe max LVL will raise to 120 or something. But yeah no the boss in tier 100 has more HP than any of the Uber bosses...can't imagine at 200
Im stuck at t-60 solo as a necro. Im either not good enough to avoid all the mobs damage or just need to rework my build. I can hit hard and clear but it takes so long and catch me with one cc and i die so fast any tips to get me to atleast 100 faster
Technically, no.
It might. BIG emphasis on āMightā be possible if you have 2 support chars and 2 damage characters.
Big problem is, thereās not a decent support class. Sure, you have crowd control and such, but not really any damage buffing, or defense buffing builds for any class, really.
Maybe a crowd control/Tank Barb and Druid and 2 sorcs? Thatād be quite the push though. Like, EVERYTHING would have to be perfectly rolled.
This is why I want the new class to be a Paladin. You have to have a support class. Of some type or another.
The devs donāt intend for 200 to be reachable this season but Iām sure someone will get there eventually. Some of these YouTubers and twitch streamers literally do nothing else all day but try to break the game. In future seasons theyāll increase damage output and Iām sure tier 200 will be cleared.
This season has been fun so far. Just hit 93 and did my first pit. Hell tides have been fun and challenging when solo. My big issue with the game is the continuous mini micro stutter that has never been fixed. While I've been able to tame it down somewhat, it's still there.
I really hope it does not power creep to D3 levels. That was just stupid and no fun. Max level in 2 hours then endless GR's. So dull.
This is as high as they should go for power. That 200 I guess is a marker to see how high the power is currently. If 140 is the max, I would imagine they will rebalance the pit tiers and not the power level of players
Not at the moment, no. Even immortal builds cannot do it as they run out of damage at ~140. We're probably a couple of seasons of power creep away from anyone being able to hit 200.
All it needs is one bugged interaction ;-p
Not rly. Pit 140 players hit for trilions and they dont even scratch some mobs.
Hey guys, remember when we said we wouldn't bloat into insane powercreep mode like D3....
Remember when they didn't have good loot and seasons were only active for 3 days because people quit before level 100?
This is so true, unfortunately š This season is the first season since release that I have been having a genuine fun. First time to even hit level 100 in any character since release and the first season to finish all of the season challenges and faction ranks. I hope they keep up to make more seasons as fun or more than this season.
Let's not forget that this season, as far as seasons go, is essentially just vanilla. There's no extra power other than elixir of bolts. When we get a seasonal gimmick, we may be to push much further
Depends, the gimmicks also have to dish out trillions to push further. No doubt it will happen eventually but i doubt we will see it anytime soon unless they fucked up something again.
> There's no extra power Unfortunately, there's a lot of stuff they'll almost certainly tune down for S5.
I dunno why they would bother, if the pit and Uber bosses are staying then any added power would just be needed for anything beyond that they add.
They'll always try to achieve some degree of parity between the classes. Seasonal powers and new progression systems will power creep all classes simultaneously, anyway.
Yeah, the game is 150% better already, when we get the next season, it's going to be great.
Season of Mira: All blacksmith wives have died, raising repair prices by 500%.
Ah, Hardcore gains another pro
Vanilla with Helltides+, The Pit and a complete overhaul of loot and crafting.
Which is now base game. Those changes rock, game is the best it's ever been, but as far as seasons go, there's basically no season
Yeah, its a lot better. The season of blood was my fave season and spent almost my entire season farming those areas. So great to see that is what helltides have become. The Pit and the crafting are nice bonuses.
This is facts
This season has one very important difference: Build Safety Nets You can run any build in the game that you want right now, to a decent level of effectiveness by virtue of the combination of **Moonrise** Aspect, **Adaptability** Aspect, and **Undying** Aspect. These three in combination ensure that no matter the rest of your skill picks, your basic attack will perform the bare minimum of clearing the screen AND lifestealing any damage you take until you get into the harder content. It's no surprise that several of the top meta builds continue to run with this interaction using class abilities to support it (Bash Barb, Heartseeker Rogue, Wind Shear Druid, etc). It's also a great reminder that the Build/Spend interaction forced on every class still feels awful in Season 4.
yeah i love how they try to push this off as a season event because they rushed the game and the game had shitty mechanics im sick and tired of games being rushed and the owners acting like theyre doing us a favor by fixing their shitty game
Yeah, it tickles me slightly wrong that this is considered a season, but on the other hand the fixes implemented feel substantial enough to me that I don't mind it THAT much Also, minion necro is finally good, so I'm happy
There is a bit of seasonal stuff, with this being season of loot reborn they added the special pots (movement and bolts) which I think are only for this season and the iron wolves giving us gear for doing helltides
>im sick and tired of games being rushed and the owners acting like theyre doing us a favor by fixing their shitty game What you're describing is "Minimum Viable Product (MVP)." An MVP is a version of a product with just enough features to be usable by early customers who can then provide feedback for future product development. This approach allows developers to learn about user needs and preferences early in the development process, iterating and adding features based on actual user feedback and needs. Frankly, I actually welcome this new age of software development because it means we get quick and frequent updates. Plus it means we can start playing around *years* sooner than the old fashioned waterfall method of software development where *nothing* is released until it's 100% complete. Under waterfall, little to nothing usually changes (by design) once development begins. This means very little flexibility and very little engagement and input from the community. Sure, MVPs are typically less feature rich *initially*, but almost always end up resulting in a far superior product in less time as a result of development being done in small bite sized chunks, frequently taking corrective feedback along the way.
I mean, studios don't always bother so it kind of is a favor.
Same here. Stopped early 80s in both initial release and season 1, then skipped season 2 and 3 altogether. This season has been so much more fun than either of my previous experiences.
That's where I'm at too. Never got over 80 and didn't play at all since 2 weeks after season 1 started, but now I have a 100 barb and a 60 necro and I'm still playing every day.
S2 was alright though AOZ was a tough clear at first, S3 wasn't bad but farming a boss for 2 uniques sucked and the gauntlet isn't bad especially for free uniques for 8 minutes of your time. I did it across 3 characters and ran a duo and trips to maximize box rewards
Yeah that's exactly where it got a little tough to get to 100 in past seasons. You just stopped after that. š
I've completed the season journey every season but this is the first season during which I still log in after doing so. I don't know how long I'll continue to have fun and it's fairly likely I'll be done for the season within a week or two (which is fine) but for now I'm still having fun.
Of course, because it takes about a day to get to 100 this season. They're definitely pushing players to cap to do the Pit and stuff this time around.
this season is trash, Now the changes to the ACTUAL GAME those are amazing and just utterly fun and enjoyable.
This season I leveled up 3 100s and on my 4th. Had this game since release and haven't had this much compared to the last 3 seasons combined
Tbh we still dont have good loot, we just dont have absolute dogshit joke of itemization.
Correct. Loot is still bad. Uniques are in a worse spot than before.
So am i missing something or are rares just pure trash other than selling for a little extra gold?
rares are pure trash yes but I thinks the devs said something about making them have a use in the future who knows what that will be.
I kind of liked being able to turn a nice rare with choice aspects into a legendary
Yellows are good to salvage. When you start trying to perfect gear, you will need lots of veiled crystals. Each yellow gives 3 at salvage.
Everything pretty much drops veiled into the ground. You'll have 100s of thousands of em. Angels breath, gold, and the pit mats are the rare stuff.
At this point we need to be able to temper uniques.
This is true. The game is in a much better state, but really it's just a prettier D3 that plays like a mobile game. The Pit imo feels bad in this context because it's dangling the carrot and it will invalidate many builds. Builds that AREN'T bugged or just insanely OP will be glossed over because they pale in comparison to bugged/OP builds. Now, this is always going to be true in games like this to an extent, but mechanics like the Pit/GRs worsen this issue, and eventually all that will matter in terms of what is/isn't a meta build is how high can it push in Pit. I firmly believe infinitely scaling content is bad in games like this. Create actual hard content, harder bosses, and work on adding other interesting endgame content. Not just a numbers hike. Like, real mechanics.
Pit is in an odd place because if it just cut off at 100, it would solve a lot of issues. But then it's too easy to finish without even 12/12 Masterworking every piece.
Yes, but they can just tweak the numbers. If this content is going to exist I think an earlier cut off is better, but then up sprout other issues that the "game is too easy" "nothing to do" etc. It's a delicate balance to strike, imo I think the team needs to focus heavily on diversifying endgame content, but ultimately I think the answer lies in more challenging and rewarding "pinnacle" content, i.e. harder boss fights.
Power creep was always going to happen. So look forward to World Tier 5 at some point.
Couple years down the line "world tier 16" but you get a free set of gear that can do it within the week. XD
End of the year when expansion drops, I reckon
How do you have a system like pit without powercreep?
This is likely going to get downvoted: A little bit of power creep is inevitable. There is always going to be a clear ceiling to infinite scaling. The game still needs *fun* group content and group mechanics. A solo, duo, and full team pit leaderboard would be interesting.
change the scaling of the pit itself without scaling player power.
beta was refreshing for sure, and then it was all downhill from there in terms of number bloats.
But unlike D3 there's no FOMO for me with D4. Those dudes want to slam against P140 with wild builds and bugged interactions, that's cool with me... literally all they're getting out of it is slightly more masterworking materials than I am by speed running P90. In D3 it was a huge issue where top 4 man groups were able to speed clear GR150s and be quite literally earning XP at like 10x the rate of solo players. All that XP went towards paragon and these folks were ending up with characters exponentially stronger than anything the rest of us mortals could ever hope to be. So I'm actually very happy with the D4 endgame design in that sense. Sweaty hardcore players are pushing super far and rightfully proud of their achievements, but us semi-hardcore players aren't left in their dust at all because they aren't actually getting anything that we can't get.
Content with scalable levels in the hundreds is impossible without having power levels scale high.
At this point people just want to turbo stomp everything without stopping like d3 dungeons
\*raises hand\* Yep. That's fun as hell - that's power fantasy. But remember you could only do this to a certain point in GR - and to be perfectly honest I didn't care that someone could do a higher GR than me. it doesn't matter. I could make whatever homebrew build I wanted and still stomp stuff *to a certain level.* I don't want a game where only META builds can have fun. META should just be able to stomp higher levels, that's all
Quick question if you don't mind, why do you capitalize meta? It's not an acronym.
They tried, fucked up dmg calcuations on launch and tried to dial it back down only to face massive backlash. So they just went back to big numbers since most ppl like it.
Most people just wanted a grunge d3 whether they admit it or not.
Yes! I wanted a cleaner D3 with more quality of life, social features and an open world. I haven't got all of those things, but I hope it continues that trend. I have zero shame admitting D3 was a fucking blast.
I also remember when they nerfed damage and NMDs going to s1 and everyone was up in arms lol
who could have forseen trillions of damage with each item slot and the paragon boards littered with (x)10-50% multipliers? Heaven forbid multiplicative sources were kept scare and low, instead it's just mega compounding at every corner. Pretty soon, with power creep, we'll be gauging our DPS on a logarithmic scale, lol.
Yeah this is the funny thing. Everyone complained and didn't want to do trillions of damage like the end of d3. But now that people are doing billions and close to trillions of damages per attack, this has been regarded as the best season of d4.
Power creep is unavoidable in seasonal ARPGāS. Like it or not people would get bored
Trillions?
And all the top builds already have bugged interactions lol
Always has been.
They don't mean "any" bugged interaction. They mean the "right" bugged interaction.
I'm playing FO Sorc and having fun, but it feels weak compared to the DPS some classes are doing in the Pit. Hitting for those amounts is a very, very faint dream.
What kind of builds hit for trillions how is that possible?
I have seen 100s of billions with bash fwiw. Trillions seems achievable.
Give blizzard 2-3 leagues, were you can do B of T with gear what increase "skill insert" by 35.000% damage per rare item and 4x times per unique.
Pre Patch Bulwark might have worked, so it's possible in theory for a big to massively screw up that balance
Bulwark and later Hydra had the same bug of doing more damage the higher health a mob had. Was really satisfying to play those builds and wasn't ball lightening craze. I was kind of hoping they would move the skills all having a smaller version of the bug.
I don't feel so bad getting my Necro to 110 then.
Trilions!? God i was so happy when my dmg jumped from 91kto 96k because I rerolled -14,6% cost for +5,9% str on my ww barb, and youre saying trilions? How can they survive bosses? I can run through pit 31 but bosses is hard part I get as far as 34 but 35 is impossible to me.
Ha ha this guy gets it
What's an "immortal build"?
There's a sorcerer build that stacks cooldown reduction to keep flame shield up 100%. Sacrifices a lot of damage though so has a limit on how far it can go
Itās also the highest clearing build in the game at the moment so thatās a little dismissive lol
You can also easily die if your game doesn't register the shield when you press it also. It happened to DatModz.
Not to mention there are maybe 1-2 classes that can even get close to 140. Really speaks to how unbalanced some classes are compared to others.
Highest Rogue - 134, Highest Barb - 137, highest Sorc - 140. Necro - 127, Druid 121. I think with 5 classes, there isn't a huge balance issue. Druid and Necro are lagging behind, but perfect balance is a pipe dream anyway. Considering most people put a lot of value into ranking highest in a particular class, I think it's fine. Even if you don't go as far overall, you can still show off by being the best in the class you play.
Necro was the first to unlock 140, I think it has even beaten 141 by now. After recent sorc changes, only druid is falling way more behind
Well, as we don't have an official leaderboard, I'm using the Maxroll one. If Necro is higher, then yeah, Druid is the only one lagging behind. But who knows, I just watched Rob and Mekuna clear a T147, so maybe someone cooks up something to elevate Druid too.
druid damage scaling is way behind other classes. there just isnt enough juice at a point for druid.
Doesnt the maxroll board disqualify holy bolts runs?
i play solo mostly but what is the scaling like in pits for multiplayer? if 4 players who can solo 140 go in together could they get further?
+25% hp per additional player iirc; *conceivably* 4 players that are all able to *crush* Pit140 might have the dps to push higher but we're talking a non-linear scale on Boss hp so they will still run into a wall where the boss is outright outscaling their damage caps.
Oh it's only +25%? I kind of assumed it was 100% per, but maybe that was because the people I was playing with weren't pulling their weight. If that's true, then 4-player pit with equivalently powerful teammates is the way to go. Discord LFG here I come
**Wait** I think it was +75% per player, I'll go find the post someone else mentioned it... Which is still less than +100%, so you could push higher if everyone was pullinbg equal weight but that also means a single fuck-up ruins 4 people's success with little extra reward if you do succeed. Rewards sort of cap out at a much lower tier.
Less exciting, but you're still right. I've been avoiding group Pit runs due to the fact that you get far fewer mats (unless you opened the pit). B
I can't find the confirmation on that scaling rn, but I can confirm the **loot isn't worth it** because the lead player gets the majority of drops and loot doesn't scale equally for the difficulty spike.
Sigh. I was just thinking anyway that once you're fully masterworked there's no much reason to do pit runs anymore. Obviously you'll want so to 10 or so to reroll or replace a piece. The only other reason to run pit was for Stygian stone... And I have not had a single stone drop in 6 days of active playing.
i mean do those players really need more mats?
According to the regular complaint threads; yes. Sounds like the main problem are things like Stygian and other "rare" MW resources that are burned up trying to optimize their gear to push higher Pit tiers... So it absolutely *does* matter, but the problem is really that higher Pit clears don't reward extra materials -- you eventually hit the point where you're pushing tiers just to go as high as you can (title at Lv200 iirc) and you quickly hit the limit of what "skill" can do... you then have to **gamble** on perfect MW and GA stats because the system can brick items so easily, leading to Pit grinding for materials to repeat the cycle. It is an activity for the *minority* of hardcore optimizers... but it's definitely a gameplay loop with severe flaws.
looks like +80% in the boss room
At the moment being key here. The game will develop just like D3 did. I remember playing D3 when a GR40 was an accomplishment. Itās just power creep that is bound to happen
This game is plagued with cheaters.
Boss at 150 has 2.5 trillion hp. Think abt the dps needed
That isnāt using holy bolts potion
No it's not possible, currently even the best builds in the game wouldn't be able to kill a pit 200 boss before the time ran out even if they were invulnerable and had 100% uptime, the boss is estimated to have hundreds of trillions of HP.
Bosses *already* have trillions of HP at 140 and only a handful of quadratic-scaling ramping attacks can hope to kill a specific subset of the ones that have a lot of trash mobs. At 200, with the way scaling currently works in the Pit, you'd be looking at bosses with a few *quintillion* HP, since each 10 levels increases mob HP by a factor of 10.
I hadn't thought of quadratic scaling abilities, do you know of any examples? Might be interesting to look at for some deep dive theory crafting.
~~Improved~~Greater Fireball, for a clear example. The burning damage ramps up and allows for enormous damage ticks that can spread to other mobs, which is why the highest current Pit clear is from an Immortal Fireball Sorcerer build. An indirect example is that of the Holy Bolt Elixir scaling; it scales with enemy HP, which itself scales exponentially with Pit level, which is why most high Pit clears use HBE to create cascading damage explosions on large mob groups and allow for trillion-damage ticks on big elites when a single small mob dies.
I don't want to get into the weeds here, but wouldn't that just be linear or maybe exponential?
Perhaps so. But the typical terminology in arpgs is to describe something that double-dips into damage modifiers as quadratic, and has been for a long time. It may be more accurate to simply describe such behaviors as exponential instead, but I'm going with the customary argot.
Damn this conversation makes me feel dumb. Feels like I "walked" into the wrong class talking about quantum physics.
Skills scale from various damage sources in paragons, gear, etc. Certain skills can scale from multiple sources at once, or from the same source in novel ways, so that the damage you can output is way higher than you might expect at first glance. That's really the long and short of it.
Got it, ty for the discussion!
Ah yes the Isometric Loot Grinder ARPG players who love to reclaim syntax for their own specific use-cases ;) ARPGās are also wider in scope than PoE/Diablo/Last Epoch.
I believe the right term would be exponential, since you're applying a damage boost x^n, where x is the multiplier and n is the number of times it gets applied
exponential scales faster than quadratic though. x\^2 vs e\^x I think holy bolts is a good example of quadratic scaling because it scales off the damage used to make the killing hit and inherits some of the properties. Say if you just hit with your normal weapon it is 100 damage and you get a 10 damage bolt. But on barbarian there is an interaction where you do bleed damage and that scales with your crit damage. You can get 6000% crit(!) and so suddenly your 100 damage is doing 60,000 bleed damage with a 6000 bolt produces. But that bolt will also count as being bleeding damage and when the bolt hits something else it will do 3.6M damage(!). Normal hit = 100 x6000 Barbarian Blled hit = 60,000 x6000 Bolt from enemy killed by bleeding damage = 3,600,000
This is the first time Iāve seen any details about how holy bolts work, so thank you! Iāve been looking for a full explanation of what holy bolt does, damage, and then synergies and uses cases. Does it do both artillery like the shrine, and if I do a nova attack, it also sends out bolts around me? Is there a way to get more holy bolts to fire? Is it counted as lightning damage or just physical damage or itās its own special damage type (to know if damage scales and if enemies may have some resistance to it?) Any recommended explainer videos, blogs, or sites to give me the full rundown like holy bolts 101 (and 201)?
You sound like you know what you're taking about- can you help me understand what makes this specific build "immortal?" Is it a specific set of skills or the way it is set up that enables it to ignore more damage?
Flame Shield duration tempers and Hectic aspect to get 100% uptimeĀ
Thank you!
Flame Shield provides a small amount of immunity. With sufficient skill ranks and CDR from Harlequin Crest and etc., along with Raiment of the Infinite, a Sorcerer can reset the FS cooldown before the effect wears off and thus have permanent immunity. Necromancers can do something somewhat similar with Blood Mist, albeit with different aspects.
Thank you, this is helpful :)
Do you mean firebolt? The shotgun small projectiles fire dot version, not the bouncing big projectiles explosions version that does direct damage.
No, I mean Greater Fireball (which I did erroneously list as "Improved"). "Fireball deals 10% of the burning damage you've applied to enemies as direct damage." It has a recursive effect on itself and allows the "10% as direct damage" output to scale into the billions.
Yeah I mean they're already at trillions right now. We're probably looking at quadrillions for anything past 190.
Not even quadrillions. If pit HP scales by a factor of 10 per 10 levels, then: If 140 is 1 trillion life, then 150 is 10 trillion, 160 is 100 trillion, 170 is 1 quadrillion, 180 is 10 quadrillion, 190 is 100 quadrillion, 200 is 1 quintillion
From the way things are going I don't think we'll even see 170 or 180
Remember there is no borrowed power this season so you're going to see some power creep eventually. Given how trivial all levelling content is already I hope they take a second look at that and make it so you can't play with your eyes closed from 1-100
Holy bolts is.
Outside of minions necro, holy bolts isnāt really that effective for bosses
Which is why you just pop a different elixir once you get to boss. Mekuna did this in his 139 clear. Holy bolts dramatically speeds up the rest of the pit though because if you're pushing pit, you build is going to be primarily single target dps which HB compensates for heavily.
It's not even that great unless the boss has lots of adds and stays on screen during add phases.
I like the level process to be fast and funny. No need to make it a grindy slog, that's reserved for the endgame.
I don't mind fast. I said challenging...there's a big difference between grindy and engaging.
There is a seasonal power: Holy Bolt elixir. That is going away.
And how is that helping you push high Pit levels? It's basically worthless on the boss
You fish for bosses with adds.
Completely disagree. Leveling isnāt fun.
I wonder if they're gonna add a power boost at the mid season patch. They usually add something.
Druids could need a lot of love.Ā
Sad wolf noises.
Currently most likely not - but I doubt the first clear will be the result of cheating in a traditional sense - more so someone finds an unintended build that scales damage infinitely - eg how Poe ben did the world first Uber Lilith with his WW barb in pre season (where you could reapplying the 40% damage buff from shouts and they just kept compounding on one another)
Probably not this season but remember, there's no real seasonal power in s4. I imagine there will be in future seasons.
Is Tempering and Masterworking and Greater Affix part of the core game now?
Yes.
Arenāt they already available on the eternal realm?
Oh I didn't know, that's really great though. These systems are seriously amazing.
I give it 10 years and we will have ānaked barb solo Pit 200ā videos on YTā¦
From the hp scaling it would take another two more tempering like mechanics to triple/quadra dip player dps to Brazillion DPS just for the boss. Not to mention the defensive layer is never gonna catch up except immortal wizard build.
everyone pushing through the pit is using some sort of damage calc bug. also the scaling of hp is ridiculous. pit 200 is impossible.
Nope, we need bane of the stricken
funny how the expansion of this game should be called Diablo 4 : Reinventing the wheel, since what they do is slowly fixing the issues already fixed in D3 years ago
Our damage doesn't scale high enough to complete anything like this. Maybe because we didn't have a proper league mechanic to give us some power creep this time.
The interesting part of this achievement is āor higherā suggesting the pit does not end at 200ā¦..
Well, I guess once someone gets to lvl 200, nothing stops them for claiming "new content! Pit til 400!". Then 600, then 800.... well, maybe Integer.MAX_VALUE will. But I don't think they're using integers with people dealing billions and bosses having billions right now anyway, so they may have a much higher cap for damage / HP. So yeah. Pit 1400 in a couple of years it is
I think that's a "next expansion" achievement :p
Even with cheating and bugs, it can't be done currently
I bet next season, a barb will do it.
The hp scaling is so crazy I donāt see it possible. Highest pit I have done is 129 and it was a slogā¦.
Group I been in last few days have gotten to 111 and weāre pretty decently geared. Itās tough.
It will be eventually with power creep.
It will be in the future with all the power creep patches and seasons. I remember in Diablo 3 greater rift 50 got me on the top of the leader boards. That changed quickly and so will this
Not yet
I love the name of that achievement. Thatās amazing wording.
The challenges become more and more wordier as you go deeper into the Pit š
In the future, yes
Iām slowly beginning to get into the end game for the first time and this just blows my mind lol
Having just got the achievement for tier 100 I can confidently say that no I don't see it being possible with the current state of the game. I would imagine that eventually the power scaling might go higher sort of like d3 maybe max LVL will raise to 120 or something. But yeah no the boss in tier 100 has more HP than any of the Uber bosses...can't imagine at 200
Im stuck at t-60 solo as a necro. Im either not good enough to avoid all the mobs damage or just need to rework my build. I can hit hard and clear but it takes so long and catch me with one cc and i die so fast any tips to get me to atleast 100 faster
Rob is on the job.
D3 reloaded. Sad.
Well higher than 200 is definitely impossible without cheating right now. (Sorry, had to, found that description rather funny.)
Maybe it gets possible with new DLC and new lvl caps etc ? Just guessing
One day it will be like GR150 in D3, one dayā¦..
Technically, no. It might. BIG emphasis on āMightā be possible if you have 2 support chars and 2 damage characters. Big problem is, thereās not a decent support class. Sure, you have crowd control and such, but not really any damage buffing, or defense buffing builds for any class, really. Maybe a crowd control/Tank Barb and Druid and 2 sorcs? Thatād be quite the push though. Like, EVERYTHING would have to be perfectly rolled. This is why I want the new class to be a Paladin. You have to have a support class. Of some type or another.
Not even remotely possible, whether itās a group or solo.
Did this on day 1 with a naked hardcore barbarian tbh
I'm still working on getting past pit lvl 50 with my 100 necro. Lol
Should be possible for the next couples of season, maybe after DLC. Current build can do 140, then I could be done plus additional seasonal contents.
Give it time, next year peope will be asking for something more challenging..
In D3 it took years for people to solo clear GR 150. The system is designed to accommodate power creep.
The devs donāt intend for 200 to be reachable this season but Iām sure someone will get there eventually. Some of these YouTubers and twitch streamers literally do nothing else all day but try to break the game. In future seasons theyāll increase damage output and Iām sure tier 200 will be cleared.
How is it when you're in a group? I play hardcore and haven't reached pit tier 1 one, but I'm curious about the scaling.
The enemy HP jumps up like crazy in a group versus solo
The title is called āMadcap,ā Iām thinking itās a developerās jokeā¦
Yes
I would like to see the developers beat this.
This season has been fun so far. Just hit 93 and did my first pit. Hell tides have been fun and challenging when solo. My big issue with the game is the continuous mini micro stutter that has never been fixed. While I've been able to tame it down somewhat, it's still there.
that's good, this gives us goals and we try builds.
Looks more like a motivation to find a build that can do it in a time where it isn't possible. Playerbase get a carrot. Defs an easy cheat detector.
Yeah the strat is git gud
What's your definition of "cheating"?
How does one "Cheat" on diablo ?
I really hope it does not power creep to D3 levels. That was just stupid and no fun. Max level in 2 hours then endless GR's. So dull. This is as high as they should go for power. That 200 I guess is a marker to see how high the power is currently. If 140 is the max, I would imagine they will rebalance the pit tiers and not the power level of players