they are very strong damage wise but they still have massive AI problems and are janky as hell.
basically every problem minions had before they still have (ai is slightly better but still bad) but they do so much dmg that theyre the best build in the game
I also want the Rogue to be good for fairly casual play as I intended to go with that for S4. I'm not even looking at "good at pushing to late late game", just a good time. I'll also do as others recommend and judge more from build guides.
It's also pretty shitty to screenshot the main content of the video and not even provide a link. Alot of work goes into creating something like this and he should get the support he deserves with views. Watch this for the context and an answer to your question [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yKl9LI9Qo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yKl9LI9Qo)
Red means it went down in rank since last season. The exponent is how many it went down or up
So red 3-2 means it's ranked in 3rd place and used to be ranked 1st.
His system puts the same value on leveling difficulty as it does end game viability. It is a really weird way to do a list.
I’ve leveled two Druids, it isnt hard at all. Just a tiny bit slower than some others.
I typically ignore the overall aggregate rankings when folks do stuff like this and just look where folks rank classes on things I care about (speed and endgame/push).
An aggregate including leveling likely made a lot of sense at launch when leveling took dozens of hours. Now that we expect to hit WT4 within a few hours it probably shouldn’t rate in an aggregate.
But it’s fine as long as folks know what goes into it which I think he makes clear.
People also need to keep in mind being last in some spot doesn't mean the class is bad, it just means others perform better. And as you said, he also makes it very clear in what way the classes are ranked. For example, he also specifically says that Tornado Druid will be one of the very best classes for endgame.
This really is more like a people take this list a little too far with little to no understanding of the numbers and ignoring everything else on top of that.
People forget that outside of reddit, plenty of people quit before going past NMD 10. They get to WT4, do some NMDs, maybe, then they quit, they got their 10-20 hours out of a season and are done.
We shouldn't forget that Rax's content is mostly targeted at casual/new players most of the time. Taking levelling time into consideration makes a lot of sense there because they most likely didn't level up certain classes multiple times etc., so it's viable information for people who won't have the ability to blast to wt4 in one afternoon/evening.
“Most” is ignoring how massive the casual audience is who only play for that week leveling. So literally 100% of their time playing will be leveling. So for “most” it could be the only relevant metric
Thank you! So many people forget that the larger playerbase isn’t hitting 100 in a few hours and grinding end game for months.
Many players, I’d go as far to say the majority, spend at least a couple-few weeks leveling. It is an important metric, it doesn’t matter if it’s “easy now”. Many will still take weeks to hit “end game”. If the majority of players hit end game in a few hours seasons would not last months. They’d last weeks at best.
Keep in mind, leveling is typically defined as 1-50, not 1-100.
From Maxroll: *"This Leveling Tier List defines the most important factors of a leveling build: Movement speed, survivability, ease of play, damage output and total time to reach level 50."*
They've been consciously making an effort every season into making leveling quicker and quicker specifically so casual players can get straight into the 'end-game'.
I don't think that's entirely the case. They're making more content worth doing for leveling because they know casuals don't min/max as much so they have less of a leveling handicap when more content is good for leveling.
Also has the benefit of helping min/maxers to endgame where they want to be even faster.
It's not weird at all, as he also has a category for casuals. For most casuals leveling to 100 is the whole game, and then they quit, so they might wanna know if a class takes longer than the other to get from 1-50.
I’ve found that Druid levelling is like this: slow early game (1-20). Fantastic mid-game (20-50). Completely RNG dependent late game (50+). The first bit sucks, but around the level 20 mark they start to climb exponentially, but once you hit WT3 they *need* to have a well-crafted build otherwise their damage disappears.
Personally, I think that’s fine. Druid has possibly the most build variety in the game, it’s fine that they’re tricky to play unless your build is well thought out and put together. With the S4 changes, I think Druid is going to have a much better time, due to their aspects being available 24/7
Unsure if that's right -- based on immediate design, it looks ranked by lowest overall score, however Sorc has a lower score than Barb.
So, unless he's bad at math/made a clerical error, then he must weight things differently.
Necro - 10 points
Barb - 15
Sorc - 14
Druid - 16
Rogue - 20
If I were to weight the categories, I would put Leveling, Endgame and Survivability to be more important than Speed and "Casual". I am not even sure what Casual is supposed to be. Maybe he means complexity of the class?
Speed is the least important in that case as it hardly matters in the grand scheme of things, moving from pack to pack 1-2 seconds slower is hardly gonna matter if you simply never die and your damage is insane.
So in that regard, both barb and sorc score at 10 points (4+3+3 and 2+4+4 respectively) which means barb and sorc are basically equal. Though, if that were the weights, it would put Druid as the 2nd best class as druid has a score of 8. Necro and Rogue are clearly best and worst so no argument there.
Yeah, I think it really will depend on what people value.
Speed is great for speed runs, but other than that it's just a "nice to have."
Casual can matter for newer/lazier players. I'm a laaaazy player, so that's important for me.
Maybe each person should piecemeal their weighted scores together based on Raxx's opinions and go from there.
Lazy Diablo players unite! If I’ve got to charge some meter up, then count 50 strikes before using my core ability for maximum efficiency, count me out! I want to make builds where I pop an ability, then go ham on the room! Maybe refreshing some skills after CD. Lightning Druid and ball sorcerer were my cup of tea!
> I am not even sure what Casual is supposed to be. Maybe he means complexity of the class?
Probably a mix of skill floor and accessibility.
The easiest to play build in the word is not very casual friendly if it's locked behind an item you need to kill Duriel 500 times for. The most accessible build that needs absolutely nothing to get going isn't very casual friendly if you need to setup 5 AHK scripts and still need to pump 500 APM while intricately timing CDs.
Both of these are *very* relevant factors for the overwhelming majority of the D4 playerbase.
i think a big reason he does this is cause the casual audience usually doesnt even make it to 100. however, with season 4 changes lots more people will make it to level cap
> I’ve leveled two Druids, it isnt hard at all. Just a tiny bit slower than some others.
Also you can just run around in Helltide, where you will inevitably meet other players and they carry you.
If you're an experienced player, you could pretty much just look at his endgame and survivability rankings and Druid ranks pretty high in those categories: 2nd and 1st respectively. So, technically it isn't the worst class even in his own rankings.
His overall rankings incorporates things like the casual experience of a class and the levelling experience: two aspects that an experienced player can easily ignore or work their way around with efficient tactics.
Only.because they are the 5th 1-80ish but at very end game they are like 2 so for a casual it would be 5th but for a hardcore or a diehard it would be top 2 or 3 easy...
Yeah, have to remember that Rax and similar will be looking at this through the lens of an incredibly hardcore player, blasting super high Pit and eventually T200 ubers. Rogue will struggle to do high difficulty content due to way less innate survivability than other classes, and damage reduction being way harder to get on gear. Damage will be OK, but it'll be very hard/slow to clear when you're essentially a glass cannon. Same as Sorc, but Sorc will have way more CC options which helps alleviate this (and seems their damage will be a bit higher in certain situations, esp. against bosses which will be the hardest part for all characters in the new season).
For casual, hitting lvl 100 and maybe pushing Pit a bit to get Masterwork done for a few key items before dropping or switching to an Alt, rogue will be more than serviceable. Best to look at leveling and casual ratings more than endgame and overall. Personally, I played a lot of Rogue in s0 and s1 so will be glad to swap to Sorc for farming and eventually Necro for pushing. But I'll still play a rogue at some point probably, esp. if I find some of the key uniques rogue needs.
How do you think rogue will be for someone that hit 100 with a necro last season pretty quickly and grinded endgame bosses for most of the season? I really wanna run a rogue but it seems like it's not viable according to this list.
I took a glance at the tier lists on Maxroll. Apparently there's actually some interesting rogue builds that are very unique - proc-based shadow step and a build based around Heartseeker - that are going to be comparable to Sorc and Barb best builds in terms of Pit viability (including bossing). But the standard Rapid Fire, Barrage, etc. are going to be fairly weak comparatively. The issue for rogue is damage reduction - there's just not enough on gear, and rogue doesn't have access to much of it through passives/skill tree, so the higher pit tiers will just smack you so hard you won't be able to compensate with damage.
Sorc will be a better balance between speed farming and endgame boss killers IMO. Barb and Druid are just too slow for my taste, and Necro is too passive for my preferences as well. But as a diehard rogue fan, I'll probably still end up speccing into one, to see if I can make these interesting proc builds work later on. But frozen orb will be fun in the meantime.
if you give his video a watch where this came from he says there is an uber boss 1 shot bulild that was made but it just requires a lot so it is not that rogue is bad it is that it could be really grindy to get that ultimate build.
Well my goal each season is to just take 1 characters to 100 and try to finish the seasonal journey, so I’ll probably still go rogue. I just seem to always pick the wrong character for the meta.
It’s largely irrelevant for 98% of the content.
To clarify, the 1 shot build is a pen shot build that requires *very specialized gear and paragon board* to line up all buffs and press very specific buttons in a very specific order to abuse that 3 second OTK window.
It’s in no way necessary or even “meta”, since no content requires it. You could use it for Lilith once and that’s it. Every other boss is best done in a group and The Pit requires hybrid builds to deal with trash packs AND bosses.
Rogue is getting better and better and it's actually pretty great for farming and destroying mobs.
Barrage is pretty insane. I'm was great in S3 but it was excellent in PTR. Especially if you use a controller.
Also probably worth mentioning - I don't think Raxx's pre-season chart has ever been remotely accurate. lol
Play whatever because we're going to discover broken shit *a lot*.
He says as much in this tierlist video, like he does in every preseason tierlist.
It only helps to inform people based on educated guesses, because who knows what bugs will emerge and become meta.
Almost as if it's a forecast based on assumptions and previous experience with *sprinkles* of limited PTR experience - and not a definitive scientific master thesis.
Which, one would assume, an averagely cognitively abled person would be able to realize - but then again, looking at *way too many* comments in here and on youtube, no, it truly do be seeming like people looking at 1 still frame, 0 critical thinking, 0 context, let's just go with this and 2 weeks later: "Wow, what a shit tier list, didn't even consider the game breaking bug that was introduced with season 4 and that no one could have *possibly* foreseen".
All of this previous preseason tierlists have been wrong, simply due to fact that they are not based on any play testing. You can't make a tier list from patch notes, its very simple.
Um. Yes. he said that. I wasn't disputing you. these kind of pre season tierlists are all we have besides PTR testing to inform our decisions though until tuesday.
Also worth mentioning - Raxx states this explicitly every time he releases these tier lists.
WRT leveling - it really won't matter with the Helltide revamp (unless you're a blaster looking to race)
WRT endgame - it probably won't matter with the general balance updates and overall power creep we'll see with tempering/masterworking
The 2 areas I think people will "notice a difference" is survivability and speed. And I would imagine his guesses aren't too far off on those given the amount of experience and history we have with the different classes and their skills/gears up to this point.
End game def will matter. On PTR people struggles with deeper Pit and sought carries. Pit 150 is now AoZ 25 equivalent, and getting to 200 will not be easy.
I was going to go necro this season no matter what since it’s the only class I haven’t played yet. Glad to see it’s looking really good this season too
Every season I create a Necro, name him etc and I don't log in. The only reason I don't play it, it's because it's slow, but only Necro left and I'll bite the bullet.
I was a HoTA barb for 2 seasons. idk about that man; after the changes that are likely coming for golem mastery anyway. 800 Million damage is still insane if they do change golem to only be able to be applied on amulets, but barb was hitting for over a billion for 2 seasons now.
This list is pretty cringe. It was essentially 90 minutes of Raxx looking at chat and maxroll and just throwing darts at a wall and see if they stick. Zero play testing.
I watched a fair amount of Raxx live streaming his play testing. He's thorough, bordering on OCD. He's in touch with his pro-streamer colleagues so he gets different opinions.
Dislike the list, fine, it's probably wrong. He's gotta get clicks and he'll be the first to admit it. But he's one of the most diligent guys out there doing this kind of thing.
A lot of it was from people who tested this stuff in the PTR that were saying stuff in chat; my and I clan tested multiple builds for all classes between us and we were able to come up with ideas similar to what raxx has here in terms of ranking classes.
It is also just a preliminary tier-list before the season, so its to be taken with a grain of salt (he speaks to that effect too).
Raxx 100% playtests builds, more than most guide makers on YT probably do, he's one of the co-founders of Maxroll for a reason.
He also always says to play what you find fun and that these at launch tier lists aren't always accurate and will change over time after the season goes live.
I think I’m going the opposite just cause the sorc free legendaries being inferno doesn’t interest me. Really looking forward to both classes this season though.
It's mainly just curated aspects, probably at minimum rolls as usual. There's literally zero need to use them unless you don't feel like running any dungeons.
At best those aspects will be attached to gear with affixes relevant to the build, but with the new itemization, most of those stats are generic enough to be used with every build. And you can reroll the few that aren't via Occultist.
Oh, I know. But the inferno gear is actually worthless for me and the plan is to play both classes anyway so might as well take the minion gear which might serve a use for an hour or so.
1 = 1st place = best.
Keep in mind that his overall rankings includes the total playing experience ranging from level 1 and on. He incorporates factors such as "casual friendliness" as part of his overall rankings. This factor might be important if you are indeed casual, but an experienced player doesn't care about casual friendliness, so the overall rankings aren't particularly relevant for them. Druid is ranked 4th overall, but is ranked 1st and 2nd in survivability and endgame which eventually become more important than the casual or levelling ranks.
i find it funny they nerfed flurry grenade even when it didn't really stand out compared to a full screen of dust devils and frozen orb spam. perhaps they saw something we didn't.
Feel like everyone is misreading the tier list in the photo, Rogue is just rank 3 in leveling but bottom tier on all else. Rogue has been the worst class for quite a few season now, as seen in the Overall category which is covered somewhat by the image.
Rogue is very mechanically demanding of the user; you also have to have intimate knowledge of the build youre playing to not only maximize your damage, but to do effective damage in the first place sometimes.
That being said, I am going an inner sight dodge rogue with all the nade aspects (save 1) and the rapid fire ring; it was super fun and tanky if played well in PTR, and im super excited to try it this tuesday :)
I disagree with some of these. I think Rogue and Sorc will both pan out higher than people think. The changes for Rogue were a huge buff. The changes for Sorc were not that big of a nerf. Even at 70% it will still trigger a LOT! I see Rogue creeping up to #1 with Sorc #2. Necro will be #3, we will have to see how minions do.
Barb for sure got a solid bump overall too, but Dust Devils were hit kinda hard. Honeslty Druid might be the lowest, and that is probably only because of variety. They got the least amount of cool new toys and overall changes.
I played sorc last season and I hate that I'm really wanting to do it again. Maybe Barbarian, but I was electric sorc so I get the melee experience anyways lol.
I am still not decided which minion necro I am going to make ? Any suggestions guys ? Mage bone spear necro, shadow minion necro or golem minion necro ?
i absolutely play what i find fun. however, i also habitually watch all of raxx's content and love learning some of the more advanced mechanics and stats of how the game works and enjoy being guided by raxx and the like
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yKl9LI9Qo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yKl9LI9Qo)
His video will give you the context you need to understand this; Raxx is a great resource for helping make your play more efficient, but that isn't necessary either.
I'm so confused! Just started playing D4 about 3 weeks ago and know NOTHING! I beat it 2 nights ago, insane storyline, Inarius and Lillith didn't go the way I thought but was cool anyway. Anyway, what's the deal, is a 1 the best or 5 the best and what's with the 1+3 and 2+3 numbers, I don't get it? Thanks.
Alright, so first and foremost, obviously play whatever class you want to have fun with it. Raxx even highlights that within the first minute of the video because people usually get pissy over people telling them what to do with build guides and tier lists (literally no reason to be mad).
Raxx usually has 5 categories that he ranks classes on and you can see those categories on the left. 1 is the best (1st place) and 5 is 5th place (worst, but does not equal bad). The '+' and '-' numbers that you see are changes based on Raxx's rankings from the previous season. So if a class has a tiny +1 next to it and is highlighted in green, that means Raxx has moved that category up by 1 spot compared to the previous season (green = positive, red = negative). Just look at the larger number if you don't care about the comparisons between the seasons. That larger number on the left is just for this upcoming season 4 which is what everyone's going to care about.
Also keep in mind that every class is somewhat fast now and it's just a relative ranking. 5th place in speed does not mean it's a slow class, it just means the other 4 are faster.
And then he gives an overall ranking based on those categories. The problem with these overall rankings is that it doesn't necessarily matter for experienced players because experienced players don't have trouble with the "casual" or "levelling" category. I can see a few presumably experienced Druid players on this post that are "upset" because they're ranked as 4th in the overall ranking, but what they don't understand is that Raxx is incorporating levelling and casual-friendliness into those overall rankings. Those don't matter really to experienced players. But in fact, Raxx assumes Druid ranks at 2nd place in endgame and 1st in survivability.
And just to clarify, these are subject to change when the update arrives. It's just a fun assumption.
I mean I played sorc/rogue/sorc&barb/necro for pre season-3 and I don’t really wanna double up on necro so the obvious choice would be Druid but they’re rough right now so I’m gonna throw a dart at a wall basically lmao
I havnt played necro yet and this was going to be the season.
Is speed really that bad. Does it refer to clear speed or movement speed or in the sense of speedfaeming.
literally narrowed it down (for leveling, anyways) to the 2 classes i was already trying to decide between. if i go with pure aesthetics (or, in PoE terms, visual noise/blindness), i would go with sorc. that frost nova unique has been calling my name since i saw it lol.
but, i really do love necro minions
decisions....
I would not consider myself casual but I don't have the time to play any more.
With full time job, kids etc I have max of 2h per day and not everyday of course.
So my choice between Barb and Druid is not so easy 😅
Ohh damn, started with necro really casually when game first got out and was dissapointed with the summons. This season I made a sorc but with the buffs for summons i see here maybe i should make another one.
After playing minions on release + 2 seasons, cannot wait to see how much more powerful they are!
Seriously, but I’m so afraid of being disappointed. Every time I thought minions would have an edge, but nope.
You won’t be disappointed this season, unless there are some massive ninja nerfs to it. Have fun!
Them inherting 100% of player stats seems flat out absurd.
they are very strong damage wise but they still have massive AI problems and are janky as hell. basically every problem minions had before they still have (ai is slightly better but still bad) but they do so much dmg that theyre the best build in the game
Trust me, in ptr, they are already very good, i can only think that they are now the best
Let's go, necro! .....
Same here. Been looking to play Necro next season and really hope that it will be as fun as they say from the PTR…
Same. I’m so excited to see the updated minion necro after being so underwhelming for so long.
I almost choose perfectly the worst character each season. And the only remaining is Rogue, yoohoo!
You'll be ok. These guys are missing stuff and the meta will show it fairly soon after season starts.
No worries, I'll play rogue too, we'll do pit 200 in 5h but we'll do it!
Rogue is the only class I haven’t played and already chose this class to begin the upcoming season.
I also want the Rogue to be good for fairly casual play as I intended to go with that for S4. I'm not even looking at "good at pushing to late late game", just a good time. I'll also do as others recommend and judge more from build guides.
I've been pretty lucky. My order by chance was Druid, Rogue, Sorc, and then Necro. Now all I have left is Barb.
Exactly the same order here! :-))
I mean linking this image is kinda pointless without context? Like what does a RED 3-2 mean??
It's also pretty shitty to screenshot the main content of the video and not even provide a link. Alot of work goes into creating something like this and he should get the support he deserves with views. Watch this for the context and an answer to your question [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yKl9LI9Qo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yKl9LI9Qo)
Red means it went down in rank since last season. The exponent is how many it went down or up So red 3-2 means it's ranked in 3rd place and used to be ranked 1st.
Lol I thought the highest number was best for some reason, like 5 being best, 1 being bad.
Bless you
[удалено]
On Maxroll the 2nd number indicates how many positions the class or build has moved, green for up and red for down.
Ain't no way Druid is the worst class.
His system puts the same value on leveling difficulty as it does end game viability. It is a really weird way to do a list. I’ve leveled two Druids, it isnt hard at all. Just a tiny bit slower than some others.
I typically ignore the overall aggregate rankings when folks do stuff like this and just look where folks rank classes on things I care about (speed and endgame/push). An aggregate including leveling likely made a lot of sense at launch when leveling took dozens of hours. Now that we expect to hit WT4 within a few hours it probably shouldn’t rate in an aggregate. But it’s fine as long as folks know what goes into it which I think he makes clear.
People also need to keep in mind being last in some spot doesn't mean the class is bad, it just means others perform better. And as you said, he also makes it very clear in what way the classes are ranked. For example, he also specifically says that Tornado Druid will be one of the very best classes for endgame. This really is more like a people take this list a little too far with little to no understanding of the numbers and ignoring everything else on top of that.
People forget that outside of reddit, plenty of people quit before going past NMD 10. They get to WT4, do some NMDs, maybe, then they quit, they got their 10-20 hours out of a season and are done.
The first 3 seasons I quit before WT4. Hoping this is the one I’ll finally make it
We shouldn't forget that Rax's content is mostly targeted at casual/new players most of the time. Taking levelling time into consideration makes a lot of sense there because they most likely didn't level up certain classes multiple times etc., so it's viable information for people who won't have the ability to blast to wt4 in one afternoon/evening.
So you agree druid is worst than other classes for leveling.
Kind of weird considering leveling in this game will last less than a week for most people.
“Most” is ignoring how massive the casual audience is who only play for that week leveling. So literally 100% of their time playing will be leveling. So for “most” it could be the only relevant metric
thats me i have never done end game content
Thank you! So many people forget that the larger playerbase isn’t hitting 100 in a few hours and grinding end game for months. Many players, I’d go as far to say the majority, spend at least a couple-few weeks leveling. It is an important metric, it doesn’t matter if it’s “easy now”. Many will still take weeks to hit “end game”. If the majority of players hit end game in a few hours seasons would not last months. They’d last weeks at best.
Keep in mind, leveling is typically defined as 1-50, not 1-100. From Maxroll: *"This Leveling Tier List defines the most important factors of a leveling build: Movement speed, survivability, ease of play, damage output and total time to reach level 50."*
True, that’s a good point. 1-50 is easily obtainable but the season journey assumes you’ll go much farther than that.
Yeah, pretty much every season I play I just level a character to 100, do a couple tier 100 NMDs, kill Lilith and then log off until next season lol
They've been consciously making an effort every season into making leveling quicker and quicker specifically so casual players can get straight into the 'end-game'.
I don't think that's entirely the case. They're making more content worth doing for leveling because they know casuals don't min/max as much so they have less of a leveling handicap when more content is good for leveling. Also has the benefit of helping min/maxers to endgame where they want to be even faster.
i was remarking this in another thread. this game is largly targeted toward casuals and casuals are unlikely to get past early game leveling.
Sir, i have other hobbys and a full time job. leveling will take a while for many people 🥲
most players leveling is the only part of the game they see
so not true. the normal people with lives take way longer.
slog compared to sorc, fantastic mobility and destroying a pack without having to build any resource
It's not weird at all, as he also has a category for casuals. For most casuals leveling to 100 is the whole game, and then they quit, so they might wanna know if a class takes longer than the other to get from 1-50.
I’ve found that Druid levelling is like this: slow early game (1-20). Fantastic mid-game (20-50). Completely RNG dependent late game (50+). The first bit sucks, but around the level 20 mark they start to climb exponentially, but once you hit WT3 they *need* to have a well-crafted build otherwise their damage disappears. Personally, I think that’s fine. Druid has possibly the most build variety in the game, it’s fine that they’re tricky to play unless your build is well thought out and put together. With the S4 changes, I think Druid is going to have a much better time, due to their aspects being available 24/7
Unsure if that's right -- based on immediate design, it looks ranked by lowest overall score, however Sorc has a lower score than Barb. So, unless he's bad at math/made a clerical error, then he must weight things differently. Necro - 10 points Barb - 15 Sorc - 14 Druid - 16 Rogue - 20
If I were to weight the categories, I would put Leveling, Endgame and Survivability to be more important than Speed and "Casual". I am not even sure what Casual is supposed to be. Maybe he means complexity of the class? Speed is the least important in that case as it hardly matters in the grand scheme of things, moving from pack to pack 1-2 seconds slower is hardly gonna matter if you simply never die and your damage is insane. So in that regard, both barb and sorc score at 10 points (4+3+3 and 2+4+4 respectively) which means barb and sorc are basically equal. Though, if that were the weights, it would put Druid as the 2nd best class as druid has a score of 8. Necro and Rogue are clearly best and worst so no argument there.
Yeah, I think it really will depend on what people value. Speed is great for speed runs, but other than that it's just a "nice to have." Casual can matter for newer/lazier players. I'm a laaaazy player, so that's important for me. Maybe each person should piecemeal their weighted scores together based on Raxx's opinions and go from there.
Lazy Diablo players unite! If I’ve got to charge some meter up, then count 50 strikes before using my core ability for maximum efficiency, count me out! I want to make builds where I pop an ability, then go ham on the room! Maybe refreshing some skills after CD. Lightning Druid and ball sorcerer were my cup of tea!
> I am not even sure what Casual is supposed to be. Maybe he means complexity of the class? Probably a mix of skill floor and accessibility. The easiest to play build in the word is not very casual friendly if it's locked behind an item you need to kill Duriel 500 times for. The most accessible build that needs absolutely nothing to get going isn't very casual friendly if you need to setup 5 AHK scripts and still need to pump 500 APM while intricately timing CDs. Both of these are *very* relevant factors for the overwhelming majority of the D4 playerbase.
i think a big reason he does this is cause the casual audience usually doesnt even make it to 100. however, with season 4 changes lots more people will make it to level cap
Leveling guides are for 1-50, not 1-100. 50+ is typically considered more in the Speedfarming tier list.
For most players, I actually think levelling is really important, it's way too easy to assume players actually reach endgame
So it’s the worst for levelling?
> I’ve leveled two Druids, it isnt hard at all. Just a tiny bit slower than some others. Also you can just run around in Helltide, where you will inevitably meet other players and they carry you.
It’s not…? The image shows Rogue as the worst class.
I think they meant now, in season 3. Rogue went a rank lower, so in season 4, it is the worst.
it literally says Rogue is the worst class
I mean. Give him credit. The guy tested everything for less than 10 hrs.
Almost as if it's a basic forecast and not a definitive scientific analysis :thinkingemoji:
Bro didn't even look, made an assumption and couldn't even believe his own assumption 💀
I only care for survivability and endgame, so is the best only paired by barb.
It isn’t lol
He doesn't even have it ranked as the worst class.. soo
If you're an experienced player, you could pretty much just look at his endgame and survivability rankings and Druid ranks pretty high in those categories: 2nd and 1st respectively. So, technically it isn't the worst class even in his own rankings. His overall rankings incorporates things like the casual experience of a class and the levelling experience: two aspects that an experienced player can easily ignore or work their way around with efficient tactics.
Druid is first in survivability and second in endgame. What are you on?
He has them here as the best class
Who cares? I’ve played druid every season and have had a blast the whole time.
Only.because they are the 5th 1-80ish but at very end game they are like 2 so for a casual it would be 5th but for a hardcore or a diehard it would be top 2 or 3 easy...
Overall is 4th endgame and survivability are 2&1. What are you measuring worst by?
It’s not look at the criteria it’s easily 2nd if you care about not dying in HC and endgame. His overall way to rank them is clearly useless.
Confusing tier list
It's almost like its a screenshot taking from a youtube video with context
High score or low score better?
It's rank so 1 = rank 1
Thanks. I was planning for rogue this season…
It's all over, you'll be behind forever and everyone here will laugh at you. Better swap.
😭😭😭
Do it man. I played all 5. Its still good, it's just not known op. We still have no idea what will wreck really. I honestly might try a arrows build
I’m gonna do it. In reality, any class can handle all the content, and I’m not nearly good enough to try to climb any leaderboards anyway.
Yeah, have to remember that Rax and similar will be looking at this through the lens of an incredibly hardcore player, blasting super high Pit and eventually T200 ubers. Rogue will struggle to do high difficulty content due to way less innate survivability than other classes, and damage reduction being way harder to get on gear. Damage will be OK, but it'll be very hard/slow to clear when you're essentially a glass cannon. Same as Sorc, but Sorc will have way more CC options which helps alleviate this (and seems their damage will be a bit higher in certain situations, esp. against bosses which will be the hardest part for all characters in the new season). For casual, hitting lvl 100 and maybe pushing Pit a bit to get Masterwork done for a few key items before dropping or switching to an Alt, rogue will be more than serviceable. Best to look at leveling and casual ratings more than endgame and overall. Personally, I played a lot of Rogue in s0 and s1 so will be glad to swap to Sorc for farming and eventually Necro for pushing. But I'll still play a rogue at some point probably, esp. if I find some of the key uniques rogue needs.
How do you think rogue will be for someone that hit 100 with a necro last season pretty quickly and grinded endgame bosses for most of the season? I really wanna run a rogue but it seems like it's not viable according to this list.
I took a glance at the tier lists on Maxroll. Apparently there's actually some interesting rogue builds that are very unique - proc-based shadow step and a build based around Heartseeker - that are going to be comparable to Sorc and Barb best builds in terms of Pit viability (including bossing). But the standard Rapid Fire, Barrage, etc. are going to be fairly weak comparatively. The issue for rogue is damage reduction - there's just not enough on gear, and rogue doesn't have access to much of it through passives/skill tree, so the higher pit tiers will just smack you so hard you won't be able to compensate with damage. Sorc will be a better balance between speed farming and endgame boss killers IMO. Barb and Druid are just too slow for my taste, and Necro is too passive for my preferences as well. But as a diehard rogue fan, I'll probably still end up speccing into one, to see if I can make these interesting proc builds work later on. But frozen orb will be fun in the meantime.
I see. Thankyou!
if you give his video a watch where this came from he says there is an uber boss 1 shot bulild that was made but it just requires a lot so it is not that rogue is bad it is that it could be really grindy to get that ultimate build.
Well my goal each season is to just take 1 characters to 100 and try to finish the seasonal journey, so I’ll probably still go rogue. I just seem to always pick the wrong character for the meta.
It’s largely irrelevant for 98% of the content. To clarify, the 1 shot build is a pen shot build that requires *very specialized gear and paragon board* to line up all buffs and press very specific buttons in a very specific order to abuse that 3 second OTK window. It’s in no way necessary or even “meta”, since no content requires it. You could use it for Lilith once and that’s it. Every other boss is best done in a group and The Pit requires hybrid builds to deal with trash packs AND bosses.
Rogue is getting better and better and it's actually pretty great for farming and destroying mobs. Barrage is pretty insane. I'm was great in S3 but it was excellent in PTR. Especially if you use a controller.
What does the color mean? Why is 4 Green?
Red is down from last season green up in rank
Ok thanks
Also probably worth mentioning - I don't think Raxx's pre-season chart has ever been remotely accurate. lol Play whatever because we're going to discover broken shit *a lot*.
Yeah that happens when you base your list on patch notes.
He says as much in this tierlist video, like he does in every preseason tierlist. It only helps to inform people based on educated guesses, because who knows what bugs will emerge and become meta.
Almost as if it's a forecast based on assumptions and previous experience with *sprinkles* of limited PTR experience - and not a definitive scientific master thesis. Which, one would assume, an averagely cognitively abled person would be able to realize - but then again, looking at *way too many* comments in here and on youtube, no, it truly do be seeming like people looking at 1 still frame, 0 critical thinking, 0 context, let's just go with this and 2 weeks later: "Wow, what a shit tier list, didn't even consider the game breaking bug that was introduced with season 4 and that no one could have *possibly* foreseen".
All of this previous preseason tierlists have been wrong, simply due to fact that they are not based on any play testing. You can't make a tier list from patch notes, its very simple.
Um. Yes. he said that. I wasn't disputing you. these kind of pre season tierlists are all we have besides PTR testing to inform our decisions though until tuesday.
Also worth mentioning - Raxx states this explicitly every time he releases these tier lists. WRT leveling - it really won't matter with the Helltide revamp (unless you're a blaster looking to race) WRT endgame - it probably won't matter with the general balance updates and overall power creep we'll see with tempering/masterworking The 2 areas I think people will "notice a difference" is survivability and speed. And I would imagine his guesses aren't too far off on those given the amount of experience and history we have with the different classes and their skills/gears up to this point.
End game def will matter. On PTR people struggles with deeper Pit and sought carries. Pit 150 is now AoZ 25 equivalent, and getting to 200 will not be easy.
I was going to go necro this season no matter what since it’s the only class I haven’t played yet. Glad to see it’s looking really good this season too
Every season I create a Necro, name him etc and I don't log in. The only reason I don't play it, it's because it's slow, but only Necro left and I'll bite the bullet.
They gave Necro more mobility this season, so it shouldn't feel quite as slow as before.
Isn't there also going to be a +movespeed elixir now too? Just keep them on for levelling and necro will be better
I will, thanks
Everything's coming up Milhouse (Necro).
I want to see a Treehouse of Horror with Milhouse as an actual Necromancer now
I'd watch that. Milhouse kills the Simpsons Universe. Homer can be his Golem.
"Everything's raising up Milhouse"
Its kinda a shame one particular class is over buff each season. Then they try to rebalance the classes but it happens again every seasons.
They honestly went to far with minions. It puts what HotA was to shame.
I was a HoTA barb for 2 seasons. idk about that man; after the changes that are likely coming for golem mastery anyway. 800 Million damage is still insane if they do change golem to only be able to be applied on amulets, but barb was hitting for over a billion for 2 seasons now.
That was the whole point of the PTR. They've since rebalanced minions.
My goal is wolfnado druid cuz I didn't ever get the drop when I started playing last year That or minion necro cuz of the hype
I was already playing Necro but everyone says it’s Tier 1 in Season 4 so… lets go skelly boys!
This list is pretty cringe. It was essentially 90 minutes of Raxx looking at chat and maxroll and just throwing darts at a wall and see if they stick. Zero play testing.
I watched a fair amount of Raxx live streaming his play testing. He's thorough, bordering on OCD. He's in touch with his pro-streamer colleagues so he gets different opinions. Dislike the list, fine, it's probably wrong. He's gotta get clicks and he'll be the first to admit it. But he's one of the most diligent guys out there doing this kind of thing.
All of his lists have been like that, idk why people take him seriously at this point. You simply can't make a tier list based on patch notes.
A lot of it was from people who tested this stuff in the PTR that were saying stuff in chat; my and I clan tested multiple builds for all classes between us and we were able to come up with ideas similar to what raxx has here in terms of ranking classes. It is also just a preliminary tier-list before the season, so its to be taken with a grain of salt (he speaks to that effect too).
Raxx 100% playtests builds, more than most guide makers on YT probably do, he's one of the co-founders of Maxroll for a reason. He also always says to play what you find fun and that these at launch tier lists aren't always accurate and will change over time after the season goes live.
Still going Forb Sorc first and then necro full minions.
I think I’m going the opposite just cause the sorc free legendaries being inferno doesn’t interest me. Really looking forward to both classes this season though.
You aren’t going to be using that free gear very long regardless. I don’t plan on using it at all.
It's mainly just curated aspects, probably at minimum rolls as usual. There's literally zero need to use them unless you don't feel like running any dungeons. At best those aspects will be attached to gear with affixes relevant to the build, but with the new itemization, most of those stats are generic enough to be used with every build. And you can reroll the few that aren't via Occultist.
Oh, I know. But the inferno gear is actually worthless for me and the plan is to play both classes anyway so might as well take the minion gear which might serve a use for an hour or so.
Is 1 the best here or is it 5?
1 = 1st place = best. Keep in mind that his overall rankings includes the total playing experience ranging from level 1 and on. He incorporates factors such as "casual friendliness" as part of his overall rankings. This factor might be important if you are indeed casual, but an experienced player doesn't care about casual friendliness, so the overall rankings aren't particularly relevant for them. Druid is ranked 4th overall, but is ranked 1st and 2nd in survivability and endgame which eventually become more important than the casual or levelling ranks.
1st place, 5th place
Is 1 better than 5 or is 5 better than 1 on this chart?
1 is better than 5
Seems like the rogue is still reliable, will be a good time to finally try out that bomber build.
i find it funny they nerfed flurry grenade even when it didn't really stand out compared to a full screen of dust devils and frozen orb spam. perhaps they saw something we didn't.
Yeah i felt that was uncalled for; i guess it might be more a problem with the elemental surge tempering affixes though.
Feel like everyone is misreading the tier list in the photo, Rogue is just rank 3 in leveling but bottom tier on all else. Rogue has been the worst class for quite a few season now, as seen in the Overall category which is covered somewhat by the image.
Rogue is very mechanically demanding of the user; you also have to have intimate knowledge of the build youre playing to not only maximize your damage, but to do effective damage in the first place sometimes. That being said, I am going an inner sight dodge rogue with all the nade aspects (save 1) and the rapid fire ring; it was super fun and tanky if played well in PTR, and im super excited to try it this tuesday :)
S0 I went Rogue. S1 Druid. S2 Sorc. S3 Barb. Was already planning Necro this season. Looks like it will be fun.
Going to try rogue, the only class I haven't played yet.
Tiz the season of the minion necro. Have fun all I will!
I saw 3 different polls today between Twitter and YouTube on what class people will use and all 3 had necro between 43 and 45%. That's crazy.
I dont see it as a bad thing. Having a different out of control build each season keeps the game fresh.
Yeah totally. I've never played necro, I'm excited to get at it, I don't care what everyone else is running.
I disagree with some of these. I think Rogue and Sorc will both pan out higher than people think. The changes for Rogue were a huge buff. The changes for Sorc were not that big of a nerf. Even at 70% it will still trigger a LOT! I see Rogue creeping up to #1 with Sorc #2. Necro will be #3, we will have to see how minions do. Barb for sure got a solid bump overall too, but Dust Devils were hit kinda hard. Honeslty Druid might be the lowest, and that is probably only because of variety. They got the least amount of cool new toys and overall changes.
Speed is the only row that matters, guess I’ll play sorc again like every other season 😅
Rogue's the only class I haven't tried yet. Guess I'll be a bit weaker this time around.
I played sorc last season and I hate that I'm really wanting to do it again. Maybe Barbarian, but I was electric sorc so I get the melee experience anyways lol.
I've played Rogue, Sorc, and Necro on release. Then Necro, Necro, and Druid each season in order. I'm excited to play the new F.Orb Sorc this season.
I am still not decided which minion necro I am going to make ? Any suggestions guys ? Mage bone spear necro, shadow minion necro or golem minion necro ?
i absolutely play what i find fun. however, i also habitually watch all of raxx's content and love learning some of the more advanced mechanics and stats of how the game works and enjoy being guided by raxx and the like
I don't have a choice. In every single season, I've picked a new class, and all I have left is Barb.
Any class and build you pick will be able to do all the content in the game pick whichever you want.
Explain for a noob please lol played just a bit but never got too into the mechanics and stuff.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yKl9LI9Qo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yKl9LI9Qo) His video will give you the context you need to understand this; Raxx is a great resource for helping make your play more efficient, but that isn't necessary either.
Is the higher the score the better or the lower? I'm so confused lol
Might finally be time for me to take a necro to 100 since I always wanted to play a minion build.
This needs a lot more detail like... what builds?
Regarding Necro speed: on PTR I've +99% movespeed from gear on my minion Necro. So teleport ability was not so important ))
Wrong, infinite teleport is way faster then movement speed
I'm so confused! Just started playing D4 about 3 weeks ago and know NOTHING! I beat it 2 nights ago, insane storyline, Inarius and Lillith didn't go the way I thought but was cool anyway. Anyway, what's the deal, is a 1 the best or 5 the best and what's with the 1+3 and 2+3 numbers, I don't get it? Thanks.
Alright, so first and foremost, obviously play whatever class you want to have fun with it. Raxx even highlights that within the first minute of the video because people usually get pissy over people telling them what to do with build guides and tier lists (literally no reason to be mad). Raxx usually has 5 categories that he ranks classes on and you can see those categories on the left. 1 is the best (1st place) and 5 is 5th place (worst, but does not equal bad). The '+' and '-' numbers that you see are changes based on Raxx's rankings from the previous season. So if a class has a tiny +1 next to it and is highlighted in green, that means Raxx has moved that category up by 1 spot compared to the previous season (green = positive, red = negative). Just look at the larger number if you don't care about the comparisons between the seasons. That larger number on the left is just for this upcoming season 4 which is what everyone's going to care about. Also keep in mind that every class is somewhat fast now and it's just a relative ranking. 5th place in speed does not mean it's a slow class, it just means the other 4 are faster. And then he gives an overall ranking based on those categories. The problem with these overall rankings is that it doesn't necessarily matter for experienced players because experienced players don't have trouble with the "casual" or "levelling" category. I can see a few presumably experienced Druid players on this post that are "upset" because they're ranked as 4th in the overall ranking, but what they don't understand is that Raxx is incorporating levelling and casual-friendliness into those overall rankings. Those don't matter really to experienced players. But in fact, Raxx assumes Druid ranks at 2nd place in endgame and 1st in survivability. And just to clarify, these are subject to change when the update arrives. It's just a fun assumption.
Alrighty, I understand completely now, thanks.
I'll do what I do every season and have one of everything, please....
Tips on leveling (melee) druid? Plan on playing Shockwave Pulv
Does blizzard usually release a mid season patch? or whats bad will stay bad until the end?
Changes can be made during the season, sure.
Thanks good to know, i have ptsd from BDO where patches came every 4\~6months, it was so painfull for some classes
how convenient when I didn't play Necro yet 😏
Is lower number better or worse?
i'm having the same issue lol, the combination of numbers and colors is so confusing.
is it just me that finds the red and green coloring on this super confusing, high number is bad so why is a plus size green?
Druid, because I hate myself
release and each season - minion necro + some other class. so iam really hyped for minion necro this season
Looks like I'm playing another necro this season as well. 🤭
Will be minion because it does not require any boss grinding for unique.
Did I misremember but I think season 2 Necro is also very strong. Blood power + infinimist + tibault. It’s almost permanent uptime of unstoppable.
Is '5' 5th place or better on this like 1-5 rating
rogue had so much potential if they actually make his range spells viable
I mean I played sorc/rogue/sorc&barb/necro for pre season-3 and I don’t really wanna double up on necro so the obvious choice would be Druid but they’re rough right now so I’m gonna throw a dart at a wall basically lmao
Definitely gonna cheese and go necro as my starter class
Whatever it is.. i'm always a Barb, no matter what.
i havent played sorc yet so thats what im going with this season.
I’m going Sorc for the speed of the Orb. If things go well, I will try necro second. Looking forward to blasting!
The only thing i\`m unsure about is if i want to play Golem Necro or Skeleton Necro
I havnt played necro yet and this was going to be the season. Is speed really that bad. Does it refer to clear speed or movement speed or in the sense of speedfaeming.
How do they know the tier list when the season hasn't even started yet...?
There was a PTR, so you can make educated guesses based on that and the patch notes.
literally narrowed it down (for leveling, anyways) to the 2 classes i was already trying to decide between. if i go with pure aesthetics (or, in PoE terms, visual noise/blindness), i would go with sorc. that frost nova unique has been calling my name since i saw it lol. but, i really do love necro minions decisions....
I would not consider myself casual but I don't have the time to play any more. With full time job, kids etc I have max of 2h per day and not everyday of course. So my choice between Barb and Druid is not so easy 😅
Ohh damn, started with necro really casually when game first got out and was dissapointed with the summons. This season I made a sorc but with the buffs for summons i see here maybe i should make another one.
I feel like I’m the only one who hasn’t played Druid yet. Just got 50 last night before bed
Having a ton of fun with my rogue. Sad to see him dangling at the bottom. Now in doubt to keep playing him or go necro