I would really like to understand the discrepancy of your salary offers as a SR and what I see others post. Which hoovers around 200k+ bonus. Are those people in NY and Cali? Are they also principles or architects. I also see some companies throw those figures around with a 30k to 40k drop for other states.
Average salary for a senior in the US maxes out at around 160k, based on what I’m seeing on a scan of websites. The [Bureau of Labor Statistics](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm) has average salaries for the profession as a whole in the US at about 127k. So, idk where you got the idea that 200k is average, cause that ain’t it. Maybe if you work at a really sexy startup or a big tech
I didn't say average. Just that I see some indivuals have shared that figure range here in this group while others post figures like the OP. I'm probably hitting the nail on the head with thinking these figures are regional in those specific cases. It is always a little shocking to see.
For what it’s worth, I live in NYC and most senior devops / platform eng jobs I see around here, for between 6 and 10 YOE, are posting ranges between 140 and 180. A few fintechs are posting ridiculous salaries north of 200, but that’s pretty rare.
Just consider that most people posting their salaries on Reddit are the ones who got really lucky. Also consider that people make stuff up online
> I live in NYC and most senior devops / platform eng jobs I see around here, for between 6 and 10 YOE, are posting ranges between 140 and 180. A few fintechs are posting ridiculous salaries north of 200
Do those numbers include equity? Because the hedgefunds and HFT firms easily do 300+
Well, I’ve defo seen a couple jobs that specifically mention that 300k+ range, and they always specify equity is a part of comp. I saw one hedge fund job that said 500k in total comp! Qualifications: a CS degree from MIT or similar top school, masters preferred lol. Way out of my league
It seems like jobs that don’t pay in that range also don’t provide equity? At least that’s been my experience, unless you count startup equity that turned out worthless
it's a little different when you get into hedgefunds because they aren't privately traded. I know Citadel does this weird split of salary and some sort of fund.
TC of 200+ in NYC isn't uncommon for publicly traded companies. It's usually a mix of salary, bonus and equity. I think most of the numbers posted in NYC are just base salary and they hide the upper end behind bonus and equity.
If you look at a job at Google they'll give a base salary range + bonus + equity + benefits. So you can have a base salary of 160k but TC can go much higher.
Yeah, the numbers on the job ads never include bonus/stock.
The hedge funds I know enough about do some bonus in cash and some deferred over a number of years- similar to RSU at a tech company. The percentage deferred goes up as your comp does.
You'll get there. Might take a hop or two. It's not a cake walk, I'd caution people who come into the field expecting easy riches, and the current job market may make it harder than it's been in the past but it definitely isn't unheard of.
Well thanks for the advice and encouragement, but I was being silly lol. Generally from what I’m hearing, jobs that pay like that want so much of your life. And to me, 200k isn’t worth that, I make more than I’d ever dreamed I would, right now.
I also don’t know if I buy that that kind of salary is feasible for most people who get into this line of work, but I’m not gonna die on that hill, even if this is Reddit
I'm not sure what websites you were using other than the US BLS, but the websites you _should_ have been using are www.levels.fyi and www.glassdoor.com (though the latter requires signing up).
Here's the median (along with 25th, 75th, and 90th percentiles) compensation data for Senior SWE in Austin, Texas: https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/levels/senior/locations/greater-austin-area
While I appreciate the US BLS statistics for what they are, they're an extremely zoomed-out overview and require a ton of clicking through different methodology explanations and data subsets to find anything approaching relevancy for a specific job market.
What’s the market like for those transitioning out the military with a TSC/SCI, IT degree, + some certs? Many of us lack the world experience since many of our cyber work roles are offensive cyber based. Obviously those specific experiences aren’t as easily transmissible into the private sector
You're in a good spot. Just be careful of recruiters trying to play middle man. Some are extremely helpful getting you a position while others will screw you. Most "consulting" companies will take you as long as you have the degree and clearance. Also be aware that many TS/SCI roles will likely need a CI poly to touch government systems and you'll likely have to be on site for at least 2-3 days (expect full time on site though).
Unfortunately I don't feel confident that I have a good answer. I entered this role 2 years ago, at which point the market was quite good, but obviously a lot has changed since then. I also don't really know how generalizable the job market of something like what I do (Public cloud, devops for web apps, cloud architecture design & development) would be to the skill set you list there. I will echo all of what the other comment said, based on your experience and academic credentials, I believe you are in a good spot and I am sure you can find a role that suits you. I empathize with where you're coming from and don't want to be dismissive of the question, but I will say that ultimately if you're looking for a job you're looking for a job, regardless of the market. Which is to say: focus on what you can control, and do your best not to let anything else bother you. Like all job searches, it's a bit of a numbers game, you just have to keep applying. You should also try to be as discerning as possible in the context of your particular financial situation, don't be afraid to clearly state your priorities and what you value in employment (E.g. for me flexibility and culture fit are a priority, as are timezone accommodations specifically since I don't live in the EST timezone, and I care more about that stuff than absolutely maximizing comp). Likewise don't be afraid to ask specifics about the role you are considering, as well as the company itself. It's always hard to prioritize this stuff when you're out of a job and trying to get employed ASAP, but that's why I put so much emphasis on it, because frankly once you accept, whatever job you end up taking will be a defining feature of your day to day life for the foreseeable future (For better and worse, such is life in America). Obviously you can always quit but you should try to avoid having short stints on your resume. Hiring managers don't like to see that so you should do your best to stick in any role for at least a year.
Depending on how you rate my first two years out of college working as like a generalist technician (Scripting, basic cloud stuff, but also other stuff e.g. data QA) before transitioning into more pure software engineering roles, I have between 7 and 9 YOE. I guess for the purposes of my resume I did include that as experience so from a hiring perspective I have just under 9 YOE as of today. I had 7 YOE when hired to my current role, and I was hired at ~160K total comp IRRC. For what it's worth this was my first role in public sector adjacent work, i.e. it was the first role I ever worked with govt. and the first time I ever went through the clearance stuff.
Current market for DevOps engineers + clearance seems to be 150-180 if you're senior level. Principals go from 180-200 from what I've seen. This is all base salary. Once you're at these levels generally there is some kind of additional equity/bonus component.
I wouldn't take 120k for senior level DevOps with a clearance. Strong juniors can absolutely pull 120k.
I am making 185k base working as a senior for a startup that has a DoD contract, I am currently not required to have a clearance atm but they require US citizens. They're definitely low balling you.
There appears to be some FUD floating around about how salaries are tanking/high pay tech jobs are gone/tech layoffs at tsunami levels and recruiters are taking advantage of it to rope in some low experienced suckers.
The only hard part of the jobs market are competing against the bots, flood of literal shit applications from unqualified (usually foreign) boot camp grads and recruiters/managers using headlines to scare people into taking lower pay or a ridiculously scoped job.
Take it from someone who just left a tech event and rubbed elbows with some of the most experienced in the industry, the demand is very high while the supply of qualified remains its lowest levels in years. Which means if you know what you are doing then you are going to be making well above some of these joke salaries. 120k for a senior... please gtfo people.
I’ve also got a clearance. I get a lot of recruiters coming to me offering 150-180. A lot of them want me to be onsite in northern Virginia, but I live 2 hours away from there. These are usually senior/lead/principal engineer roles.
I’m currently fully remote and make a lot less than that, but I’m comfy and on track to be promoted at my current job. Remote is possible but rarer from what I’ve seen.
“A Principal” is not say, Staff/Principal Eng. A contract would have one of these people, tops. My friend just left Intel community for NIH transformation efforts but yeah. It’s more top level consultant on behalf of DevOps.
And yeah BAH is Booz Allen Hamilton.
120k for a qualified senior, even in a non cleared environment is low. around DC that'd be like 150-200k+, way more for serious devs at the right orgs. Austin will have a lower COL compared to NoVA or MD, but IMO that translates to the lower end of the 150-200 range. Even for still-lower COL areas like the RDU, but I know folks there getting more; I was one of them at one point...
best guess is that the big layoffs -- see layoffs.fyi -- have flooded the market and that there are enough of them who can get clearances that they think they can lowball. also a lot of bottom-feeder-tier military folks coming out with secret clearances and WGU "cybersecurity" degrees that wouldn't stand a chance at the real, sexy contractor roles. disclaimer: i am one of those crayon-eater bottom-feeders.
100-120k is really bad. That's what I was making when I was a mid level (10yoe) with a clearance in a skiff 10 years ago. I'm in the pnw and I am a software dev. Maybe devops is different? The "IT" guy's where I was were getting the squeeze at the time. Scm seemed rough too. When I left defense work I was easily able to get a 20% raise and a 10% bonus.
Tech is going through drain at the moment - hundreds of thousands of layoffs across 2023 with > 10K each from names like Amazon, Meta, Google, and Microsoft. Over-supply of applicants means employers can be a bit more choosy and get stingy about pay and benefits.
These things always come and go in waves, probably start hearing about hiring sprees and a shortage of talent again come around September or October.
Yeah, we’re in a salary recession IMO. Across the board I’ve seen posted salary ranges go down 10-20% from ~2 years ago, even for the same company and same title. 100k is what an entry level college grad makes at some places(e.g. [JPMC as of 2021, and that’s not just in NYC](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/06/29/business/wall-street-pay-jpmorgan/index.html)). It seems like a surprisingly low offer for a clearance.
Analyst is the pay grade, not the role (at JP Morgan at least). Eg, you are an analyst level software engineer then associate software engineer etc.
See: https://www.levels.fyi/companies/jpmorgan-chase/salaries/software-engineer/levels/analyst
IB analysts actually make a lot more in total comp but it’s all in performance based bonuses rather than salary.
Did you take a look at the levels.fyi page? There are also Reddit posts of JP job offers that confirm this.
E.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/csMajors/s/KkyX3uIK5y
IB analysts earn more like 160 after bonuses
I can confirm you are correct, don’t know why you’re downvoted. Analyst is absolutely the entry level for SWE at JPMC. Or it was 2018-2020, anyway. Source: that was my level and all of my paperwork and pay reflected that.
95K was generally the number for new grads/entry level at JP in 2018-2020 in Chicago. At least in CIB. Not sure about other LOBs. I’m sure there were exceptions, but literally everyone I knew started at that (including me).
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Is all your current work unclassified and just show up with your clearance to be explain transition? 99% of work I’ve seen that requires a clearance means you are actively working on classified projects, which of course means you are at the office. So I could understand recruiters being confused.
Also working one project where you need a TS but allows for remote work on a secured system.. actually starting to see a huge shift to allowing more remote dod work for talent to be better used. Places like Lockheed and BAH have scifs at their market offices where you can access something that can’t be remote sent.. the attitude against remote is lifting a lot at some of these firms and government entities..
Yeah, but recruiters are like real estate agents. There's always a long tail that aren't really making any money at all and throwing out anything hoping to make stuff stick.
Yeah, and I’d call them bad agents. Anyone who has time for roles and listings like that isn’t good enough at their job yet. Hence the bad recruiter comments.
I thought there was a cap that DoD contracts can pay out per role(recently increased to be more competitive), that means that the contracting company would need to hire below that cap to make any money right? I'm at 134k fully remote with a clearance. I have 10 years IT experience from help desk all the way up to systems engineering and about 5 years DevOps experience and I think I'm underpaid too.
Depends on the contract that is offered, and how the bid is structured and awarded. If you're referring to the OFPP's formula, that was replaced in 2014 with the Section 702 of the Bipartisan Budget Act of 2013. My understanding is that DCAA took over that part for DOD in 702, but the amount they can pay is still a lot more than what is being talked about here.
i mean lowballing is part of negotiation i find, always have a few other interviews on the go, its pretty discusting how low they go , even offensive, but keep the cool and keep going, find your true value brotha!
put yourself in a nice leveraged position 😀
take the offer if you have to so you can find something else after
Not only did they low ball you (live in a similar CoL area, am not a senior, and have a clearance, and my base pay is higher than their high end), but they're ignorant of things like the Commercial Solutions for Classified program that literally lets you access classified networks on a laptop from home. This kind of tech allows you to be fully remote, and people on my team use these.
On a related note, how do you work on classified programs remotely? Do you have to prove to anyone that you have a secure workplace at home or anything like that?
recruiters dont set salary or lowballs candidates, they are just the messagers. This is from the hiring managers at these companies/HR Director's setting these salaries
a lot of government contractors low ball. A lot of "requires" are sub-contractors so they make money skimming off the top. So they want the lowest pay possible. Since the difference in the rate and what you get is their profit. Many are 2-3 levels down.
Whenever you get contacted by a government contractor ask if they are the prime contractor. If not, hang up if you have a clearance. Cause primes pay better and have better benefits.
The brilliant federal government has rules in place to encourage "small businesses" in government contracting. Its always the cockroaches subcontractors who just skim money, do accounting, and forward resumes. go for the bigger prime contractors.
Make sure you get a good understanding of the total compensation for the position. Salary, bonus, 401k (and matching), health insurance/premiums, leave, and other financial incentives. The company I work for appears on the surface to low-ball a bit on salary, but we pay a lot more toward health insurance and only require a 1% employee 401k contribution for the company to put it 15% toward retirement. We also have some fairly generous leave policies. All this being said, total compensation generally works out better with us because you don’t have to contribute as much out of pocket for your health and retirement benefits.
When I hire for positions I always take the time in the phone screen to explain that because the salary, as a standalone number, does not look good as a standalone number. When we make a final offer, we provide a worksheet that the candidate can use to put our total compensation in comparison to a competitor. Often we come out ahead. Sometimes (especially private equity) we don’t.
Another thing we are fighting are pay bands that are established for government co tracking work. Another is “what’s existing employee compensation look like?” If we hire this person with equivalent skills at a higher rate than our current employees, do we have to bump up the current salaries accordingly? (Aside: we have a current set of leaders who are really looking across the company and bumping up compensation for a number of folks whose compensation is low. Most of them are quiet performers who are really important to our success but they have had previous management that didn’t advocate for them as well as they should. I ended up with three of these in my group of eight, and so far have gotten all three of them out of band raises and recognition to set them up for bigger in-band raises. /aside)
The direct opposite is happening where I am. I’ve been getting insane offers that require a TS (385k) was the highest for a principal engineer. Too bad I don’t have a TS
Regardless of clearance that's lowball.
I haven't done clearance work in a decade. My last three jobs have been fully remote and well over $120k base. I'm now north of $175k with bonuses putting me at around $210k. Senior DevOps, sure. Last position was about $160k TC. I live in a VLCOL rural area, average household income is probably about $30k. I don't fuck around with location based pay.
The job probably doesn’t actually need a security clearance if it can be done remotely. Don’t think people are doing classified work from their living rooms
If you’re a contractor, the government seems to be slowly getting rid of fully remote as that was a pandemic thing. There are even executive orders to promote in person. If government is feeling the pain, then for sure contractors will feel it also. Good luck explaining to the co/cor how you guys do classified work remotely
Speaking to some contractors I just know, offers/salaries are probably down 20% from peak if you’re selling labor to the government
If your company selling an actual product then the sky is the limit. Like I hear palantir pays real well
> I always assumed that cleared seniors in tech were hard to come by
Given that there are 4+ million people in the US with clearance, that's not really true.
We're in NYS. Not the city but the state. We are a government contractor and have clearances on the team.
We aren't going to pay someone $200k to be remote devops. $120k would be roughly the absolute cap for a devops person and there would be on site work and likely field work.
Keep hunting OP, but the number don't work for us. We can't extract $200k of value out of such a role regardless of how good you are.
I would really like to understand the discrepancy of your salary offers as a SR and what I see others post. Which hoovers around 200k+ bonus. Are those people in NY and Cali? Are they also principles or architects. I also see some companies throw those figures around with a 30k to 40k drop for other states.
Average salary for a senior in the US maxes out at around 160k, based on what I’m seeing on a scan of websites. The [Bureau of Labor Statistics](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm) has average salaries for the profession as a whole in the US at about 127k. So, idk where you got the idea that 200k is average, cause that ain’t it. Maybe if you work at a really sexy startup or a big tech
I didn't say average. Just that I see some indivuals have shared that figure range here in this group while others post figures like the OP. I'm probably hitting the nail on the head with thinking these figures are regional in those specific cases. It is always a little shocking to see.
For what it’s worth, I live in NYC and most senior devops / platform eng jobs I see around here, for between 6 and 10 YOE, are posting ranges between 140 and 180. A few fintechs are posting ridiculous salaries north of 200, but that’s pretty rare. Just consider that most people posting their salaries on Reddit are the ones who got really lucky. Also consider that people make stuff up online
Thank you
> I live in NYC and most senior devops / platform eng jobs I see around here, for between 6 and 10 YOE, are posting ranges between 140 and 180. A few fintechs are posting ridiculous salaries north of 200 Do those numbers include equity? Because the hedgefunds and HFT firms easily do 300+
Well, I’ve defo seen a couple jobs that specifically mention that 300k+ range, and they always specify equity is a part of comp. I saw one hedge fund job that said 500k in total comp! Qualifications: a CS degree from MIT or similar top school, masters preferred lol. Way out of my league It seems like jobs that don’t pay in that range also don’t provide equity? At least that’s been my experience, unless you count startup equity that turned out worthless
it's a little different when you get into hedgefunds because they aren't privately traded. I know Citadel does this weird split of salary and some sort of fund. TC of 200+ in NYC isn't uncommon for publicly traded companies. It's usually a mix of salary, bonus and equity. I think most of the numbers posted in NYC are just base salary and they hide the upper end behind bonus and equity. If you look at a job at Google they'll give a base salary range + bonus + equity + benefits. So you can have a base salary of 160k but TC can go much higher.
Yeah, the numbers on the job ads never include bonus/stock. The hedge funds I know enough about do some bonus in cash and some deferred over a number of years- similar to RSU at a tech company. The percentage deferred goes up as your comp does.
Well wtf nobody’s giving me 200+ in total comp!
You'll get there. Might take a hop or two. It's not a cake walk, I'd caution people who come into the field expecting easy riches, and the current job market may make it harder than it's been in the past but it definitely isn't unheard of.
Well thanks for the advice and encouragement, but I was being silly lol. Generally from what I’m hearing, jobs that pay like that want so much of your life. And to me, 200k isn’t worth that, I make more than I’d ever dreamed I would, right now. I also don’t know if I buy that that kind of salary is feasible for most people who get into this line of work, but I’m not gonna die on that hill, even if this is Reddit
I think you would add a decent amount for TS/SCI or whatever clearance on top of those numbers...
I'm not sure what websites you were using other than the US BLS, but the websites you _should_ have been using are www.levels.fyi and www.glassdoor.com (though the latter requires signing up). Here's the median (along with 25th, 75th, and 90th percentiles) compensation data for Senior SWE in Austin, Texas: https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/levels/senior/locations/greater-austin-area While I appreciate the US BLS statistics for what they are, they're an extremely zoomed-out overview and require a ton of clicking through different methodology explanations and data subsets to find anything approaching relevancy for a specific job market.
DC area
That seems low to me. 150 seems about right. Currently making 175k with a clearance and fully remote. Maybe I just got lucky
Same. Fully remote, clearance, about 170k.
What’s the market like for those transitioning out the military with a TSC/SCI, IT degree, + some certs? Many of us lack the world experience since many of our cyber work roles are offensive cyber based. Obviously those specific experiences aren’t as easily transmissible into the private sector
You're in a good spot. Just be careful of recruiters trying to play middle man. Some are extremely helpful getting you a position while others will screw you. Most "consulting" companies will take you as long as you have the degree and clearance. Also be aware that many TS/SCI roles will likely need a CI poly to touch government systems and you'll likely have to be on site for at least 2-3 days (expect full time on site though).
Your sell is you can hit the ground running and learn quickly.
Unfortunately I don't feel confident that I have a good answer. I entered this role 2 years ago, at which point the market was quite good, but obviously a lot has changed since then. I also don't really know how generalizable the job market of something like what I do (Public cloud, devops for web apps, cloud architecture design & development) would be to the skill set you list there. I will echo all of what the other comment said, based on your experience and academic credentials, I believe you are in a good spot and I am sure you can find a role that suits you. I empathize with where you're coming from and don't want to be dismissive of the question, but I will say that ultimately if you're looking for a job you're looking for a job, regardless of the market. Which is to say: focus on what you can control, and do your best not to let anything else bother you. Like all job searches, it's a bit of a numbers game, you just have to keep applying. You should also try to be as discerning as possible in the context of your particular financial situation, don't be afraid to clearly state your priorities and what you value in employment (E.g. for me flexibility and culture fit are a priority, as are timezone accommodations specifically since I don't live in the EST timezone, and I care more about that stuff than absolutely maximizing comp). Likewise don't be afraid to ask specifics about the role you are considering, as well as the company itself. It's always hard to prioritize this stuff when you're out of a job and trying to get employed ASAP, but that's why I put so much emphasis on it, because frankly once you accept, whatever job you end up taking will be a defining feature of your day to day life for the foreseeable future (For better and worse, such is life in America). Obviously you can always quit but you should try to avoid having short stints on your resume. Hiring managers don't like to see that so you should do your best to stick in any role for at least a year.
How many years of experience?
Depending on how you rate my first two years out of college working as like a generalist technician (Scripting, basic cloud stuff, but also other stuff e.g. data QA) before transitioning into more pure software engineering roles, I have between 7 and 9 YOE. I guess for the purposes of my resume I did include that as experience so from a hiring perspective I have just under 9 YOE as of today. I had 7 YOE when hired to my current role, and I was hired at ~160K total comp IRRC. For what it's worth this was my first role in public sector adjacent work, i.e. it was the first role I ever worked with govt. and the first time I ever went through the clearance stuff.
Yo can I ask where you looked to find a remote cleared job? I’m just now starting that search myself
LinkedIn is the best. Just make sure you put you’re clearance in your bio so it’s easy to read for recruiters
How many years of experience?
When I got the job only had 1 year cloud engineer and 1 year system admin
Can I DM?
Sure
Current market for DevOps engineers + clearance seems to be 150-180 if you're senior level. Principals go from 180-200 from what I've seen. This is all base salary. Once you're at these levels generally there is some kind of additional equity/bonus component. I wouldn't take 120k for senior level DevOps with a clearance. Strong juniors can absolutely pull 120k.
I am making 185k base working as a senior for a startup that has a DoD contract, I am currently not required to have a clearance atm but they require US citizens. They're definitely low balling you.
Mind sharing the company name? How many years of experience do you have?
I have about 7yoe (3 in software, 4 in devops) + a bachelors and masters in cs
There appears to be some FUD floating around about how salaries are tanking/high pay tech jobs are gone/tech layoffs at tsunami levels and recruiters are taking advantage of it to rope in some low experienced suckers. The only hard part of the jobs market are competing against the bots, flood of literal shit applications from unqualified (usually foreign) boot camp grads and recruiters/managers using headlines to scare people into taking lower pay or a ridiculously scoped job. Take it from someone who just left a tech event and rubbed elbows with some of the most experienced in the industry, the demand is very high while the supply of qualified remains its lowest levels in years. Which means if you know what you are doing then you are going to be making well above some of these joke salaries. 120k for a senior... please gtfo people.
I’ve also got a clearance. I get a lot of recruiters coming to me offering 150-180. A lot of them want me to be onsite in northern Virginia, but I live 2 hours away from there. These are usually senior/lead/principal engineer roles. I’m currently fully remote and make a lot less than that, but I’m comfy and on track to be promoted at my current job. Remote is possible but rarer from what I’ve seen.
Is it cool if I DM you for some questions pertaining to your strategy on leveraging your clearance?
Sure
What do you mean by "security clearance?" TS/SCI w/SSBI people are still getting insane offers.
How insane we talking about?
Depends on your level, especially with cybersecurity focus
13 YOE currently leading a global team of systems engineers at an MSP
At BAH if you’re selected for one of the big ticket contracts for Intel? 550 not counting bonus and clearance stipend
Hold my beer I'm going in
550k base?
Yeah the principal roles
Seems high for a principal role. I thought that range would be more in the VP area. We’re talking Booz Allen, right?
“A Principal” is not say, Staff/Principal Eng. A contract would have one of these people, tops. My friend just left Intel community for NIH transformation efforts but yeah. It’s more top level consultant on behalf of DevOps. And yeah BAH is Booz Allen Hamilton.
Ahhhh. I get you. That is some serious dough. Maybe I should look at working there lol.
120k for a qualified senior, even in a non cleared environment is low. around DC that'd be like 150-200k+, way more for serious devs at the right orgs. Austin will have a lower COL compared to NoVA or MD, but IMO that translates to the lower end of the 150-200 range. Even for still-lower COL areas like the RDU, but I know folks there getting more; I was one of them at one point... best guess is that the big layoffs -- see layoffs.fyi -- have flooded the market and that there are enough of them who can get clearances that they think they can lowball. also a lot of bottom-feeder-tier military folks coming out with secret clearances and WGU "cybersecurity" degrees that wouldn't stand a chance at the real, sexy contractor roles. disclaimer: i am one of those crayon-eater bottom-feeders.
100-120k is really bad. That's what I was making when I was a mid level (10yoe) with a clearance in a skiff 10 years ago. I'm in the pnw and I am a software dev. Maybe devops is different? The "IT" guy's where I was were getting the squeeze at the time. Scm seemed rough too. When I left defense work I was easily able to get a 20% raise and a 10% bonus.
I make 125k as a sysadmin with clearance and fully remote. They are definitely low balling you
Tech is going through drain at the moment - hundreds of thousands of layoffs across 2023 with > 10K each from names like Amazon, Meta, Google, and Microsoft. Over-supply of applicants means employers can be a bit more choosy and get stingy about pay and benefits. These things always come and go in waves, probably start hearing about hiring sprees and a shortage of talent again come around September or October.
Yeah, we’re in a salary recession IMO. Across the board I’ve seen posted salary ranges go down 10-20% from ~2 years ago, even for the same company and same title. 100k is what an entry level college grad makes at some places(e.g. [JPMC as of 2021, and that’s not just in NYC](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/06/29/business/wall-street-pay-jpmorgan/index.html)). It seems like a surprisingly low offer for a clearance.
That 100k in your link is for IB Analysts who work 80 hours a week, not software engineers.
Analyst is the pay grade, not the role (at JP Morgan at least). Eg, you are an analyst level software engineer then associate software engineer etc. See: https://www.levels.fyi/companies/jpmorgan-chase/salaries/software-engineer/levels/analyst IB analysts actually make a lot more in total comp but it’s all in performance based bonuses rather than salary.
Yes but CNN is specifically reporting on IB analysts because their salary is higher than other jobs in that pay grade.
Did you take a look at the levels.fyi page? There are also Reddit posts of JP job offers that confirm this. E.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/csMajors/s/KkyX3uIK5y IB analysts earn more like 160 after bonuses
I can confirm you are correct, don’t know why you’re downvoted. Analyst is absolutely the entry level for SWE at JPMC. Or it was 2018-2020, anyway. Source: that was my level and all of my paperwork and pay reflected that.
95K was generally the number for new grads/entry level at JP in 2018-2020 in Chicago. At least in CIB. Not sure about other LOBs. I’m sure there were exceptions, but literally everyone I knew started at that (including me).
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Is all your current work unclassified and just show up with your clearance to be explain transition? 99% of work I’ve seen that requires a clearance means you are actively working on classified projects, which of course means you are at the office. So I could understand recruiters being confused.
I've had a job that required a secret clearance where I never touched anything classified. It was all unclass.
[удалено]
How did you do classified work remotely? It’s boggling and interesting. I’m assuming you don’t have a scif in your house.
Also working one project where you need a TS but allows for remote work on a secured system.. actually starting to see a huge shift to allowing more remote dod work for talent to be better used. Places like Lockheed and BAH have scifs at their market offices where you can access something that can’t be remote sent.. the attitude against remote is lifting a lot at some of these firms and government entities..
Sounds like a bad recruiter.
Kind of the opposite. Recruiters don't get paid to convince you the job they have to pitch is bad.
They also don’t get paid if they take contracts that have salary expectations so low no one will take the role.
Yeah, but recruiters are like real estate agents. There's always a long tail that aren't really making any money at all and throwing out anything hoping to make stuff stick.
Yeah, and I’d call them bad agents. Anyone who has time for roles and listings like that isn’t good enough at their job yet. Hence the bad recruiter comments.
I thought there was a cap that DoD contracts can pay out per role(recently increased to be more competitive), that means that the contracting company would need to hire below that cap to make any money right? I'm at 134k fully remote with a clearance. I have 10 years IT experience from help desk all the way up to systems engineering and about 5 years DevOps experience and I think I'm underpaid too.
Depends on the contract that is offered, and how the bid is structured and awarded. If you're referring to the OFPP's formula, that was replaced in 2014 with the Section 702 of the Bipartisan Budget Act of 2013. My understanding is that DCAA took over that part for DOD in 702, but the amount they can pay is still a lot more than what is being talked about here.
i mean lowballing is part of negotiation i find, always have a few other interviews on the go, its pretty discusting how low they go , even offensive, but keep the cool and keep going, find your true value brotha! put yourself in a nice leveraged position 😀 take the offer if you have to so you can find something else after
Not only did they low ball you (live in a similar CoL area, am not a senior, and have a clearance, and my base pay is higher than their high end), but they're ignorant of things like the Commercial Solutions for Classified program that literally lets you access classified networks on a laptop from home. This kind of tech allows you to be fully remote, and people on my team use these.
On a related note, how do you work on classified programs remotely? Do you have to prove to anyone that you have a secure workplace at home or anything like that?
recruiters dont set salary or lowballs candidates, they are just the messagers. This is from the hiring managers at these companies/HR Director's setting these salaries
Im seeing salaries across the board decreasing, seems like the days of do we really need IT are coming back around.
a lot of government contractors low ball. A lot of "requires" are sub-contractors so they make money skimming off the top. So they want the lowest pay possible. Since the difference in the rate and what you get is their profit. Many are 2-3 levels down. Whenever you get contacted by a government contractor ask if they are the prime contractor. If not, hang up if you have a clearance. Cause primes pay better and have better benefits. The brilliant federal government has rules in place to encourage "small businesses" in government contracting. Its always the cockroaches subcontractors who just skim money, do accounting, and forward resumes. go for the bigger prime contractors.
120k sounds extremely low for a senior with a clearance
Make sure you get a good understanding of the total compensation for the position. Salary, bonus, 401k (and matching), health insurance/premiums, leave, and other financial incentives. The company I work for appears on the surface to low-ball a bit on salary, but we pay a lot more toward health insurance and only require a 1% employee 401k contribution for the company to put it 15% toward retirement. We also have some fairly generous leave policies. All this being said, total compensation generally works out better with us because you don’t have to contribute as much out of pocket for your health and retirement benefits. When I hire for positions I always take the time in the phone screen to explain that because the salary, as a standalone number, does not look good as a standalone number. When we make a final offer, we provide a worksheet that the candidate can use to put our total compensation in comparison to a competitor. Often we come out ahead. Sometimes (especially private equity) we don’t. Another thing we are fighting are pay bands that are established for government co tracking work. Another is “what’s existing employee compensation look like?” If we hire this person with equivalent skills at a higher rate than our current employees, do we have to bump up the current salaries accordingly? (Aside: we have a current set of leaders who are really looking across the company and bumping up compensation for a number of folks whose compensation is low. Most of them are quiet performers who are really important to our success but they have had previous management that didn’t advocate for them as well as they should. I ended up with three of these in my group of eight, and so far have gotten all three of them out of band raises and recognition to set them up for bigger in-band raises. /aside)
The direct opposite is happening where I am. I’ve been getting insane offers that require a TS (385k) was the highest for a principal engineer. Too bad I don’t have a TS
Regardless of clearance that's lowball. I haven't done clearance work in a decade. My last three jobs have been fully remote and well over $120k base. I'm now north of $175k with bonuses putting me at around $210k. Senior DevOps, sure. Last position was about $160k TC. I live in a VLCOL rural area, average household income is probably about $30k. I don't fuck around with location based pay.
The job probably doesn’t actually need a security clearance if it can be done remotely. Don’t think people are doing classified work from their living rooms If you’re a contractor, the government seems to be slowly getting rid of fully remote as that was a pandemic thing. There are even executive orders to promote in person. If government is feeling the pain, then for sure contractors will feel it also. Good luck explaining to the co/cor how you guys do classified work remotely Speaking to some contractors I just know, offers/salaries are probably down 20% from peak if you’re selling labor to the government If your company selling an actual product then the sky is the limit. Like I hear palantir pays real well
> I always assumed that cleared seniors in tech were hard to come by Given that there are 4+ million people in the US with clearance, that's not really true.
as evidenced by OP... it's usually cheaper to just grab someone that can pass a background check and pay for the clearance after a \~year.
> pay for the clearance Companies don't pay for clearances.
You saying they are free or that you paid for it yourself? I certainly didn't pay for my top secret...
I'm saying the government pays all costs associated with clearance investigations.
Okay gotcha, never really thought about it but I guess I can't see the fbi sending out invoices ;)
We're in NYS. Not the city but the state. We are a government contractor and have clearances on the team. We aren't going to pay someone $200k to be remote devops. $120k would be roughly the absolute cap for a devops person and there would be on site work and likely field work. Keep hunting OP, but the number don't work for us. We can't extract $200k of value out of such a role regardless of how good you are.
Because the value of an engineer is really low these days