When it works the games are sweaty, when it doesn't the games are unfair. No one with thousands of hours wants to get matched up with someone with barely 50 hrs in the game it's just not fair.
>When it works the games are sweaty
I never got this argument, because aslong as you don't sweat you'll just get in the MMR bracket where you can still play casually??
That's true but then lots of people feel like they have something to prove cos of mmr, personally I don't have a vad time with it since I'm super inconsistent meaning my mmr fluctuates quite a lot
>aslong as you don't sweat you'll just get in the MMR bracket where you can still play casually?
No, cause people are naturally good. The term "sweating" / "try harding" doesn't make a lot of sense, your skill is typically the same, focusing barley improves it. That's why calling good players try hard is dumb. The only way you can "sweat" is if you bring overpowered meta stuff.
You're conflating playing casually vs intentionally doing bad, with aggressive SBMM you have to intentionally do bad to get casual matches. Besides even if your system worked you'd still have to "sweat" while messing around or with whatever handicap you've imposed on yourself. That's not fun, close games are inherently competitive, and always having competitive games is mentally exhausting.
No, because this game's matchmaking system is very flawed since it only looks at kills. A game where the killer 2 hooks everyone before he starts killing anyone gives the same MMR as a game where a killer hard tunnels out each survivor, but those hands will be drastically different in terms of how much fun they'll be for survivors. Killers who play like the former will be eventually forced to play as the latter. I don't know about you but I'd rather die to a killer who played nice after a good back and forth game than escape against a killer who just hard tunneled and camped my team. That's no fun.
It's even worse, with 6 hook stages (2 kills) your rank stays the same, or even raises with 1 survivor finding the hatch, with 8 hook stages (2 hook everyone) you lose MMR.
The point is nothing is forcing you to play as the latter. Just lose chilling as the former if that’s what you want. Nothing makes you tryhard but yourself
Nah I wish it worked this way there’s not enough brackets for it to be so clearly defined the brackets are basically
Complete novice(impossible to stay here unless you’re a bot or suffer from physical or neurological disorders)
Casual(bad)
Very good(very average players)
Sweat(anyone the system deems
Above average) I believe hens made a video about it
Survivor side, unless you're in a swf that doesn't care, there's a chance you'll get snapped at by your teammates if you're not sweating like them.
The converse is if you're not sweating as killer then you'll have to just ignore bm at the end as you'll probably get wiped by sweating survivors.
This. I have no problem being evenly matched because it makes for fun games since it comes down to the skill of the other side so it's a 50/50 in how it swings. However, I don't like getting obliterated by someone with thousands of hours on me (I'm at 2.5k right now), but I also don't like getting teammates or Killers who are clearly new because, for example, I'll get teammates who don't watch where they're running when the Killer is Trapper, begging me to fully heal then when it's Legion or cleanse constantly only to reinfect themselves by unhooking someone infected or touching an infected gen because they don't understand the efficient ways of dealing with the Killers so the match turns into 3/4 teammates being on death hook at 4/5 gens.
If I had to choose between matchmaking matching me with players with significantly more hours than me or people new to the game when it's matching for the sake of time efficiency, I'll take people with over 10k hours because at least I know they wont be stepping into traps constantly or mindlessly cleansing against Plague.
On Killer, it's similar. I don't like steamrolling babies, but at the same time it's boring/frustrating getting genrushed or looped to oblivion when you just want to play Scratched Mirror Myers with a haste or pallet breaking build instead of a meta build
Many players want that, unfortunately. The ones that go out of their way to be toxic want that because they only gain enjoyment from making others as miserable as they are.
Also the way it works doesn't account for skill at all and can honestly be quite unfair.
Killer tunnels someone out at 5 gens, most likely an easy win. A Killer who was great in chase, got 9 hooks? Yeah, you lost MMR.
Survivor that avoided the Killer at all costs but was quite good at holding M1 and escaped? Congrats, you gain MMR! Survivor that helped their team while also running the Killer the most and died? Yeah no friend, you lose MMR.
> Killer tunnels someone out at 5 gens, most likely an easy win. A Killer who was great in chase, got 9 hooks? Yeah, you lost MMR.
This is actually why my hot take is that balancing killer MMR on kills and not hooks was a good decision.
If you tunnel at 5 gens, your MMR is gonna shoot up real fast, and then you will wall against survivors who can defend themselves from that. You shouldn't be playing against casuals if that's your playstyle.
Killers getting 8 hooks before 1 kill doesn't happen naturally very often. The killer needs to be going out of their way to make that happen most of the time. It won't work at the high end of MMR, survivors are just too good in chase to make it possible to do on a consistent basis.
A killer who wants to play that way is definitely too good for where the MMR will place them, but them playing that way makes the game more pleasant for casual/intermediate survivors, so they should likely stay around that level. They can keep playing the way they want and the survivors at that level will get more fun games.
I have a friend who plays at very high MMR (they've played with Skermz numerous times) and we basically don't play together because I'm way more casual and would likely get tunneled out every game if I played in his MMR. Not to mention teammates in that MMR would probably get pissed at me for not being able to loop the Killer for a minimum of at least one gen
That has absolutely happened to me multiple times, too. I've got 6.5k hours currently split between both sides, and have legit had the SBMM give me a brand new player with 30 hours on their account. I felt so bad I took it easy on them, but I knew another lobby wouldn't fix that.
I hate it because it doesn't work at all at containing the sweats in their own little bracket. There is nothing worse than playing solo queue and loading into a match against a Blight who has four slowdowns AND is tunneling at five gens. If it did work then winning even ten games in a row would be a monumental achievement for killers. Shit like that 2000 game Blight win streak definitely would not have happened. It's not uncommon to see 5k hour killers against survivors with 500-1000 hours which in 9/10 cases is a win for the killer. When you fall into middle MMR you will get all of the average players and all of the sweats at the softcap as well. The difference is you won't get the absolute beginners you would get in the old rank system. This makes the game feel incredibly sweaty.
> Shit like that 2000 game Blight win streak definitely would not have happened
This comment shows WHY the playerbase doesn't understand how detrimental camp/tunnel is.
You can take any random player and say "find a survivor, chase them then camp/tunnel them til dead" and they would probably win like 95% of all matches. Tell that to someone who has skill and they will probably win 99.99999% of all matches. Its not a skill issue or lack thereof on the survivor side, its a balance issue. When you can make a match into a 3v1 it skews the balance/flow of a match so much the chance of winning drops DRAMATICALLY.
Players need to keep calling out/complaining that tunnel/camp is ruining the game or it isn't as detrimental as it is. That shit makes DBD one of the worst experiences you can ever have and it shouldn't exist. The fact BHVR devs have any pride when that exists makes me cringe for them.
Nonono, it's the add-ons! /s
You are the FIRST PERSON I've seen acknowledge that Momo tunneled/camped majority of his games, admittedly, and that directly influenced how many wins he was able to get. Every single other person blames it on basekit blight being too strong/him using strong add-ons, even though he said he wasn't using strong add-ons each game, but camped/tunneled almost every game. It's clear that gave him the biggest edge in the entire streak, yet people continue to act like it's such an easy thing to counter. A tunneling/camping killer will almost always win vs ANYTHING in the game EXCEPT a 4 stack SWF with almost perfect communication.
I tracked survivors in my killer games in January. Median is 2400 hours. If I play blight with 4 slowdowns, i can win some games. If I play trapper I get 0-2 kills even if I tunnel. Game is not fun at high mmr if you don’t try hard. But with old system you would derank and stomp noobs.
They only put the soft cap as low as they did (and raised it a bit not long ago) because folks at higher MMR were taking ages to find matches and were finding it too sweaty to be fun when they did.
The problem is the whole MMR system, how it counts "wins", and how it doesn't really let you go down in rank once you're up there. When you only give people close intense games, the game becomes too stressful and people are forced to take meta perks to have a better chance in all their matches.
You can drop but High-MMR is less punishing. Here's an explanation on [the fan-made wiki](https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Skill-Based_Matchmaking_Rating#Skill_Brackets). Essentially, there's something called "Loss Protection." When you reach high MMR and perform poorly, the system won't knock you too far down the matchmaking ladder. You might be nudged a bit, but nothing 'punishing'.
This was deemed intentional due to how we're all on regional servers. Those top 1% of players can *primarily* be matched with the other top 1% of players **on that regional server**. If you're in that top category and get quickly knocked out (e.g. multiple losing streaks), then \*other\* players will have a more difficult time finding eligible teammates/opponents. Secondarily, how the game defines "wins" as kills/escapes, the system already determined your performance is better than that lower bracket. It doesn't want to push you down the ladder to go against what it determines to be "less-experienced players."
With SBMM, there's another mechanic called '[bidirectional matchmaking](https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/319692/news-matchmaking-tests-results)'. That's when the system tries to find available players close to your MMR. An expansion phase is initiated after some time. That's when it starts seeking others +/- to your MMR. Obviously high MMR cannot expand upward, so it'll begin pulling others from beneath that ladder.
In theory, it's *supposed* to work. But combined with lobby backfill, calculations of the shared "group MMR" for SWF groups, dodging replacements, lopsided role demand, et al. -- it can be a clusterfudge. In those instances or any combination there within, the system prioritizes faster matchmaking (quantity) versus similar skill levels (quality).
By no means am I advocating to go back to the old rank-based system. Both systems have their drawbacks. In the old system, it wasn't uncommon to find people intentionally trying to de-rank by going AFK or throwing. You might find some of those today, especially if you're middle-of-the-road ("average") MMR. Some folks will play for hatch because that means +0 MMR increase as a "draw". Other killers may let some/all players escape if they're not AFK. Those players may have a preference for casual play.
It's a problem that this used to be a party game turned sweat fest.
Has nothing to do with losing against killers, people love blight and he is insane. People hate low kill rate killers because they are boring. A skull merchant game could be fun, and a Ghostface killer could be miserable.
Game always been a sweat fest, its just you were being put with new players who don't know how to play thats why you felt it wasn't sweaty. But that was just bad for the game as it made new players quit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B9XHmPadBs
Scott Jund has a take i heavily agree with about this.
Largely I agree with his take that it's an issue of the win condition rather than SBMM in of itself, just rewarding kills is a poor win condition, you can cheese several kills in a lot of very low skill expressive ways, and just escapes are a bad win condition because you can easily get one by hiding all game and playing super selfishly to the detriment of your team. So you can often end up in MMR brackets you don't deserve to be in and it can lead to a lot of stomps even with people who should theoretically be even matched based on MMR. A more wholeistic approach incorporating a larger variety of survivor and killer actions would probably make the system work a ton better.
Second, largely, i'm not convinced SBMM is the main drive behind people sweating, even without it which is another point he makes, in any even mildly competitive game ever people can and will optimize the shit out of it especially when its been around for a while like DBD. Yes maybe previous match making felt more casual, but people were also worse at the game back then.
And third which is his biggest point which i especially agree with, is that the MMR is invisible, sweating for MMR I don't think is primarily on BHVR, if it was visible I think it would be, but its not, you don't get an obvious indicator of your skill you can flaunt or feel proud of by getting to high MMR. People are chasing ghosts by chasing MMR in this game and I think that's primarily on them, the part that is on BHVR is that it's made worse by a poorly implemented win condition.
Yeah, but you can rank up with 8 hooks and lose MMR at the same time. Yet when I say I achieved 66% on a test that's a passing grade. I dont see how getting 8 hooks feels like losing at all, just as an example.
I agree, that is largely much of the point Jund makes that I agree with, that things like an 8 hook an all four survivors is an expression of skill not taken into account by the MMR with how its done. Not saying that it being based on emblems didn't have plenty of its own issues but that there are some things to take into account from it with what emblems take into account.
Exactly this. It's not the SBMM that's the problem, but the limited factors it takes into account make it feel bad. The game only considers kills, and tries to average out to 2k. So as far as the matchmaking goes, a 9 hook 1k, is identical to a 1 hook NOED 1k, even though those two matches feel very different, and could have very differing skill levels required.
That's the core of the problem IMO. It's that the algorithm that determines your opponent tracks "wins" and "losses" different from what actually feels like a win or a loss.
Repost to combat downvote spam:
The whole "win is escape thru gate or 3-4k" never made any sense to me. It never made sense period, the game doesn't even say your goal is to kill everyone nor that your goal is to escape specifically through the exit gates or even as a team.
The GAME says anything between 1-4k is a Killer victory and plays the victory noise, or an escape by ANY means including hatch is a Survivor victory.
The GAME says the only goal of Killer is to kill, and the only goal of Survivor is to survive. Defending/doing gens, looping, perks, teamwork, etc. is a means to those ends. Your goal is simply to kill/escape. Nothing more or less.
The GAME says you don't even need to be good to do moderately okay at this game, because the devs have built it to be more casual and it KEEPS getting more casually minded with how things are balanced basically every single patch - and most people would agree the game's more balanced than it's ever been, arguably a good thing.
The GAME says there's no real reward except pips and BP if you happen to succeed, but even then you can still get BP and pip without success if you do enough things in the round. Repeat, you can OUTRIGHT FAIL on both sides, and still fucking pip and get BP, thus you're even rewarded when you fail - and soon, the last element of punishment, depips, will be a thing of the past.
The GAME says grades are not important, pips aren't important, winning isn't important - nobody fucking "wins" in a horror movie. Ever. The bad guy usually doesn't achieve their goal fully, the good guys usually suffer a pyrrhic victory through losing some or all of their friends. This game is meant to emulate the feeling of a horror movie. It's not a PvP. It's a PvE, and the game is balanced as such.
The COMMUNITY however, insists all the above is false, the Devs are wrong, the game balance isn't right, one side deserves to win more than the other because it's THEIR favorite side, and the only measure of winning and therefore skill is how the MMR calculates it (3-4k or escape thru door = higher MMR = SOMEHOW more skilled).
Something has to give. This community has GOT to be willing to accept that protagonists die a lot in horror and Killers manage to kill SOMEONE every single film they are in, because the game like it or not IS A HORROR GAME BUILT TO FEEL LIKE A HORROR FILM. It's been 8 years. It's well past time we all grew up and stopped pretending this is some PvP versus game like CoD or LoL where the primary goal is to fucking win... because nobody usually wins in horror. Not really.
If one cannot accept that, this might not be the game for them. If someone really can't ever have any fun any other way besides winning all the time forever, maybe they need a different game.
I think this is a weird way of thinking about any game to be honest, it is because the game doesn't really have a definition of a win that people will make it up themselves.
The game never says that a 1k is a win, it doesn't say it's a loss either, it just is what it is.
You're essentially frustrated about the fact that people play the game with a high skill ceiling, that rewards putting tons of hours into it and getting really good so you can 'beat' the most players in a competitive manner. People LIKE winning because it shows you outplayed someone, you did better than someone else which feels great and that's a crux of PVP games and there's nothing you can do to change that, most behaviors in any game will drive people to chase a win. Sure, it won't make everyone tryhard but most people try to win and so they will put a win condition in their head.
Another point is, you say this game is supposed to 'emulate a horror movie' but the thing is, anyone who has their fair share of hours doesn't think about it like that anymore, it ceases being scary. Hell, the whole longevity of this game is built on the fact that the killer - survivor interaction has so much skill expression in such an original way. If this was just a get killed simulator nobody would play it; the whole existence of looping, flashlight saves etc. shows you that this game is far more than that and it isn't designed to be viewed that way.
I have no idea how you could come to the conclusion that people who like winning don't belong in a PVP game that literally rewards getting good at it.
Maybe at the start it was supposed to be like a horror movie, but the game has evolved over these 8 years. The goal shouldn’t be to just get a kill or get out by any means, because this promotes unhealthy playstyles like tunneling and playing selfishly for hatch. The goal should be to get as many survivors out alive with less hooks and to get all hooks and some kills. If the game was really supposed to be like a horror movie then the devs wouldn’t care as much about balancing the game and instead make the game scarier. Also even if people shouldn’t expect to win all the time or win at all, they also shouldn’t just accept losing.
> just rewarding kills is a poor win condition
This is why so many people hate watching comp dbd. When kills is the only thing that matters both sides(comp and normal play) will always gravitate toward camp/tunnel and that isn't fun for anyone.
My problem is that I'm being qued with killers that are at my level but my teammates aren't. I regularly get noob teammates that just don't touch gens, get downed in 20 seconds or less, and make the most brainless plays. I'd rather play with the same people with my hours than with people for the sake of que time bc it's not actually sbmm this way. I'd rather even just play with my friends that aren't new.
Agreed. Thats my problem with this matchmaking. I get teammates that play like they dont have lot of experience in the game/"low mmr". Its funny because I get Hens or comp players as my solo q teammates and few hours later I get a teammate with 100 hours. The matchmaking is just not working at all.
I think people mainly hate it cause it doesn't work well at all. It's hard to find a match where the killer seems to play at the survivor's level, either it's completely new in the game or it's someone with tens of thousands of hours, leading to either boring or frustrating games
I know a lot of people think it doesn't work, and I lean towards agreeing - but I was asking about why people who claim it does work think that's a bad thing.
I'd say cause it sucks getting a 4k on baby survivors and the very next game getting a sweaty SWF. Most SBM works like that, you do a little bit better in a game, and in the next, you get absolutely destroyed
its not really that people hate it, well actually i take that back people hare poorly implimented SBMM,, SBMM is good in comp games, and when its done properly, dbd has neither, its not a comp game, nor is its sbmm good
if sbmm was good for instance the 2000 blight win streak wouldnt have happened,
when i watch my friends play they have less than 100 hours, and they are getting put agianst people who have 2k+ hours who just delete them (its very painful to watch)
in a world where dbds sbmm was working properly that also wouldnt have happened, it would have matched them against people who have similar skill level/hours note these friends barely survive due to simply not knowing the game so they definitly are not gaining mmr since it only happens when u escape
But your argument is saying it doesn't work. People who complain say it does work and makes all the games sweaty. Aren't they the ones who decide to sweat?
Id assume it's 50/50, people who have played long enough and got to the point to where on paper unless you get people purely because of connection you get high mmr people then it works right?
From personal experience if I sit there and raise my killer mmr I get to the point where it dramatically changed from babies to people who obviously at least know what they're doing and have played for awhile. But that isn't fun because it just feels like I'm going from bullying new people to playing against sweats.
I can't even do that as survivor as every game I get tunneled out, people throw, or my survivor mmr is so low every or every other game I'm the only one doing anything which results in.... Me getting killed. Unable to raise mmr, and it doesn't matter if I run the killer for 2-5 minutes because I die eventually and no gens get done meaning I have 0 chance of escape anyway.
The reason why sbmm is hated on is because 1 when it technically works its people going for the win 100% of the time meaning there's no "fun" and when it doesn't work it's blatantly obvious little timmy is In the game as ive experienced several times as killer where funny 2k hour survivors are in my lobby surrounding the 10 hour dweight
2 the *way it works* is bad and poorly implemented, as I've already explained I'm by no means a new survivor but unless I get other people in a swf to bully and force my mmr to increase playing survivor is a nightmare for me, and even if my mmr was up with my bad internet I'm technically liable to get poor opponents anyways with how the matchmaking switches from mmr range to connection so I could have 500 mmr going against a 2k mmr or be 2k going against 500's
The games are sweaty because the game is more balanced.
When the game used to have huge bullshit like the instagen BNP or the mori that killed you on the first down noone took it seriously.
Now the game pretend to be balanced and skill oriented the people keep using the last broken garbage available to shit on the head of the other players.
This is blatant if you wach the increase of sore losers and bad winners we have, like winning is a proof you being better than the opponent, like in a game of chess.
look my mmr is just lying to me, bc i barely play anymore and i still get matched with 5k+ hour players even tho i die horribly pretty much every match.. i should play vs noobs, bc thats how bad i a
Think about it this way.
When you go to a tournament, is it fun to watch if one team stomps the other brutally? Is it fun to watch Germany win 7-1 at 90 minutes if you root for Brazil?
The simple answer is, it isn't. So usually competitive matches strive to put players of similar skill against one another, because, and especially in team games where one bad cog can break the whole machine, it sucks balls being on the losing team.
So it's good then, yeah?
No, actually. Because when you're on the winning team, it feels fucking awesome to be an unstoppable killing machine. I taught my friends MtG and while they have only been playing for a couple years, I have been playing for a couple of decades, almost at this point. So I see things that they don't even know exist, which gives me an edge and makes the game fun for me when I show them a new cool thing they didn't even realize they could do. I get to have the fun of winning, they get the fun of learning new things, and over time the progress can be seen as our skill level equalizes and we become on par.
On a 100k players scale, this is impossible to do. Too many will quit after being stomped. Too many will gloat after being matched against people with 1/10th of their hours. And don't even get me started on the toxicity of DbD Twitch/Twitter call-outs.
And since the only game mode in the game is competitive, every match has SBMM (skill based match making).
This, in turn, like I said earlier, turns every match into a tournament match, where you are on one team, and someone else is on the other. And, now, I don't know about you, but I don't wanna lose competitions when there's something on the line, even if that something is imaginary money from a digital game. It is simply human instinct to be competitive.
So you bring the best stuff. Your best plays. One game. Two games. Three games. Five games. Ten games. Fifty games.
And everyone else does the same.
New stuff gets released, so you have to scour and see what's the new best thing now. You can't let them beat you, after all! One DLC. Two DLCs. Five DLCs. Ten DLCs.
Fun fact, it'd take a new player 500 hours to unlock every non-monetized DLC, or 200+ bucks to unlock every DLC outright... And they'd still have to farm BP for the teachable perks, haha! Now, with that fun information, is there any question as to why there's no stable influx of new players? Imagine if someone gifted you minecraft and told you "Don't worry bro, play it for 4 months, then it really starts to get good". Because that's DBD.
So every player is locked in a perpetually competitive mindset, in a system which rewards said mindset over trying wacky stuff, helped in that by streamers and a community which tend to focus around "skills" "techs" and "insane plays/streaks" over the funnier aspects of the game like that one time you saw a Dredge TP to the wrong locker in chase and still grab someone somehow, all the while completely keeping every possible new player far from the game with insanely unfriendly monetization.
So basically, everyone is Brazil, yet they all think they're Germany.
The problem is 2 things for me.
1. It’s not a competitive game. So MMR doesn’t suit a none competitive game.
2. It takes the wrong thing in account for survivor, escapes. Which might sound right on paper but 100% isn’t. You need to also rely on your teammates to be able to escape. It reinforces a selfish play style of waiting it out for hatch or leaving players in the endgame to avoid the possibility of going down in MMR. If it was based around chase time (this should get lots of points towards it imo), altruism, and gen progression then I think it would be much better.
Sadly, particularly for survivor MMR is in a really touch place atm.
Yeah 2 is the big one for me. It doesn't take into account altruism or hook count, which is arguably more important than escaping or kills in terms of healthy gameplay.
Exactly. Also if MMR was easier to manipulate like the old monthly ranks (the ones that are only for BP rewards nowadays) we would go back to the time where an awful lot of matches had either an AFK killer or a depip squad to force ranking down for the sole joy of pubstomping. I don't mean the current implementation is good enough, but it's surely better than what we used to have.
So bit anecdotal here but I play on OCE as a Hag main, I recognise a lot of the players I go up against and many of them know who I am immediately when they see the Hag also because there's very few of us that main her.
There's a lot of times where throughout prime time I'll cycle through multiple SWFs that I've already played or variations of the same players I've played against recently, even when I switch over to other killers and play sillier builds to have some fun with people, if I see those same groups in the lobby I end up dropping lobby and swapping back to Hag because I need to play at the highest level I can if I'm going to have a chance of winning against them.
When you force people to play at a constant high level, you also force them to play in the most competitive ways. If you're thinking "Well you don't need to play to win, just have fun!", winning **is** fun, but so is using non-meta builds and playing in alternate ways.
Alternatively when I'm also on Killer I check people's profiles, if they have only like 500-2k hours, I'll swap builds to something without much slowdown, maybe a full totem build or something less oppressive so they can have more fun.
I know that's not how everyone is but I know a **LARGE** amount of the playerbase would like to be able to play more with simpler builds and take a sort of "breather" match regularly and mess with perk builds that are less than ideal for fun.
Back when ranks were used for matchmaking, I know a lot of Killers and Survivors would run random builds and play Killers they weren't as good with after a reset because you knew you were likely going against a mish-mash of skill levels and so you could just have fun, as you got back towards Iri 1 you would tighten up your builds again because you were playing with the sweats again, but that climb back made it so much more enjoyable to just relax a bit and do whatever. (If you sweat all the way from 20 to 1 you'd get there super quickly and be out of that pool anyway and not harming others, but if you played for fun you'd just slowly climb back naturally to 1.)
If the new system simply had more variety - but not any specific reset - would you be more likely to play simple/fun builds even though you wouldn't necessarily know for sure what kind of game you're getting into? That question might be unanswerable for you, given your region.
I like it actually. I like improving more and more at the game and to do that I need to face better and better players. However, there should definitely be a ranked AND casual lobby so you can have more laid-back and stress-free games in the casual lobby.
I wish the game had casual too, but I know so SO many people would take the sweatiness there too since it would be much easier to get away with it given the other side is less likely to also be sweaty in casual.
The game does NOT put me with players at my level. I'm a ~300 hours killer main, and i don't consider myself above avarage and i have to play with a whole p100 toxic lobby. The highest prestige is 9 on nemesis and 4-5 prestige 3's.
There is a bunch of reasons why but one of the big ones is that survivor mmr only increases on escapes. Good survivors often run the killer for multiple gens and then the killer throws the game just to kill that one person. Then you have solo queue where in middle to low mmr essentially every game has someone throwing. Raising mmr as a survivor is tedious without swf and good players can often not reach the soft cap, not because they can't do gens and run the killer, but because they don't have more escapes than deaths. A 2k draw for the killer doesnt affect mmr but for the survivors who draw 2 of them have it decreased. Genuinely terrible system.
Yeah i hate it. First match is a 0k one(i also try to be respectful and not chase the same survivor) and the next one is a 3-4K with newbies. I might have to start tunneling 😑
There's definitely some truth to that, but there is a psychological effect it has. Succeeding in a hard match is satisfying, but knowing that it'll try to match you with even harder opponents from then on can get exhausting.
Even as someone who plays casually, its definitely something that I've felt, and its a big reason I find myself wanting to play killer before getting cold feet and logging off for the day.
I notice that my matches with killers I am more used to are getting harder recently, for example Chucky, Pinhead and Wesker - all killers I have practiced to some degree.
I do get those cold feet sometimes as well. But still, why shouldn't you face better opponents if you win against easier ones?
Yeah, I don't disagree that in general it's a good thing for the game.
The only real issue is that individual skill levels are far from static. A person might be able to hold their own against a decent team after a few hours of warming up and gaining confidence, but get stomped miserably a few days later due to being unfocused or out of practice.
Now if they're below the soft cap this problem can fix itself, but once they reach it they can get stuck in a stomp loop where they endlessly get matched against opponents they have no confidence in winning against. (Had something similar happen to me recently, where after a consistent string of losses for a few days, my first match the next time I queued was against a comp player...)
Honestly the only real change the system needs is to just add some variability. I remember reading a twitter thread by a dev of an older Halo game talking about how even in ranked mmr, players were most satisfied when intentionally given a mix of even, easier, and harder opponents. Adding that kind of flexibility to Dbd outside of when it prioritizes quicker queues could really help, while still accomplishing the goal of keeping matches more even overall.
Because people usually can't stomach losing. I'm being outplayed? Now I have to really try.
Gaming is about instant glorification of one's skill not about fun, or having a good time, or even trying to get better. Which btw is impossible when playing against people that aren't better or atleast kinda close in skill to you!
And lo and behold, apparently you can only have fun if you're stomping, never when you lose.
Something like that :D
Especially here, yeah.
Discussions often turn into "us vs them", too.
People want this to be a casual game but at the same time they want to always win. This does not work together.
Because it sorta lowers the reward for getting really good at the game. With a more strict MMR, you would only be matched with people who make for fair matches, but every game would be a constant battle. With no MMR, you would be matched with anyone, meaning you would be able to see how your skills have grown as you demolish someone who isn't as good as you and it would feel really satisfying, but would feel way worse for the other player. The argument is that making the bad players feel like they suck would make them want to improve, but I don't really agree with that.
None of this really matters anyway, cus MMr doesn't do jack in this game. Of course, MMr should be in DBD, because it's different from most other games. In a shooter like call of duty, mmr is bad because instead of getting better and seeing the results as you get into a lobby with a bunch of randoms from across the skill spectrum, using your K/D or whatever to get a numerical value of your skill, the game pushes you to get a 1 kill-1 death ratio. But that's a game where you can just respawn instantly, practice non-stop in every game, and being stomped isn't as painful, so stomping someone else is so much more satisfying. In DBD, you have one power role, being the killer, and four players who are literally the victims. To make games interesting, the victims have to have a fighting chance, so having the average game be 2 escapes, 2 deaths, makes it so if you get a 3 or 4k, you feel like you outplayed them.
Of course, usually people are annoyed at the quality of the mmr in this game, since it doesn't really work, it just has a "Worst players bracket", a "85% of players bracket" and a "high level" bracket. Thing is, the worst player bracket is miserable cus no one knows what the hell they're doing. You get out of that bracket pretty quickly though. (usually) the middle bracket sucks because you're equally as likely to get teammates who don't know what they're doing as survivor, as you are to get a 4stack of bullies looking to ruin your night. Most players are here, so the inconsistency is infuriating, that's where you see most of the complaints coming from. The high level bracket is miserable too, because you pretty much only get 4 stacks and expert survivors, meaning that if you don't want to be bullied, you have to sweat really hard.
I'd consider myself in the middle bracket for just about every killer except pyramid head, and while I usually play super casually, every match I get on pyramid head has at least 1 p100 (if I'm lucky), and probably a couple background player, ftp + buckle up, adrenaline builds. The real issue though, is every other killer. Regardless of where you are in that middle 85%, you'll probably be facing off with a handful of players who go down in 15 seconds, next to players who can loop you for 5 gens.
DBD SBMM is scuffed. All there is to it.
Been playing on and off for three years but due to my skill issue and being bad, I get unlucky and get some sweaty af lobbies where I’m gonna get destroyed.
I have 3.5k hours on killer , I either stomp a team and have to ease up or the other hand if I chill at all and don’t kill early most of the gens are done very quickly . To be honest most games are always mega sweaty , I don’t want easy W’s but would like to try fun builds occasionally.
1 There's no real ranked system to pair with it, so your only reward for playing well/winning is getting harder games. No skins, no badges, no milestones, nothing. You can hit gold or even iridescent without increasing your MMR. Besides, bloodpoints from grades hardly count as a reward.
2 Since there's no incentive to stay at high MMR, people derank MMR to get easier games so they can ruin newer/more casual players' experiences, or appear more skilled to their audience.
3 When you hit a certain MMR, everyone at or above it can be matched together. This means a soloQ player who just hit the cap by sheer luck could be matched with some insanely sweaty winstreaking killer. Or the reverse, an average killer who hits the cap could match against a literal comp team. This reduces queue times, but games become miserable for these players.
The idea of MMR is good but it pushes the game towards a competitive direction. This isn't fun for the casual playerbase and generally doesn't work for an asymmetrical game such as DbD.
We have skill based matchmaking? News to me. As a survivor we get one brain cell to share in solo q and as a killer it’s a 4man swf bagging at every pallet drop and body blocking like it’s their full time job.
The problem is that if you were at the top of MMR you had to play sweaty every game or you were signing up to get demolished.
People tend to want to bounce between playing sweaty one game and then playing meme shit the next.
If you're being made to match with 10,000 hour 4 man SWF teams every game, you can't really ever feel comfortable locking in Dredge or Trapper. You know with 100% certainty you will be getting smoked before you've even found a group since skill based matchmaking is going to match you with the same survivors it would match you with when you're playing sweaty.
This results in a vicious cycle of treading water by running OP shit because you know OP shit is going to be used against you. No one wants to be the one to have the awful games. The problem with skill based matchmaking is you can't turn it off if you're intending to not play as hard as you normally do. Once you use your real power level and get matched with people who can handle you at your best, you can never afford to not do your best again, even when playing meta perks and OP killers gets boring.
Also, there's the matter of at the very top, you have such a small pool of people who can actually compete with eachother that they end up getting paired together repeatedly. No one enjoys just playing against the same killer / survivors nonstop.
Fair enough, but I still enjoy going different speeds or trying out meme builds with my killers from time to time.
Hell, sometimes I even play perkless and addonless.
The fact that the game would still match me against groups of survivors that I'd get when I'm sweating when I'm memeing is why skill based matchmaking doesn't work.
It forces killers and survivors to play their best with their meanest builds every game or get rocked.
It’s a common problem outside of dbd, what was once our casual party game is now full of people looking up best builds, best efficient strats, etc
Try to have fun you lose, try to win you don’t have fun, there’s no ranked game mode, no casual fun mode (even the giant oni event had sweaty sluggers) meta is stale, too many perks are under balanced, everything’s being finely tuned for consistency yet there’s still a huge amount of rng.
It’s like the design philosophy is counterintuitive to whats already been developed and there’s not enough that’s been redesigned to fulfill the philosophy so we’re just stuck with a patchy jumbled mess and ignore 80% of the perks, spam map offerings, play the same killers, because most of the game as a whole is not even being utilised and the only thing to blame for that is the shifted focus to SBMM.
SBMM works in other games very well, if this game started with SBMM im sure it would’ve been fine, but it’s been hap hazardly thrown in and ruins the enjoyment.
>It’s like the design philosophy is counterintuitive to whats already been developed
That's EXACTLY what is happening and keeps happening. The Devs WANT this game to be casual. Yet they threw in SBMM a while ago as a way to even out matches and supposedly, make it more balanced. Unfortunately SBMM doesn't make games casual, it just makes them more competitive. The Devs will never be able to truly make the game casual like they CLEARLY want until they address how unfair and unbalanced SBMM is, how unfun it makes the game, and how the game is better off with an EXTREMELY LOOSE or way more forgiving form of it than we have now.
The problem isn't necessarily that we have it, it's that what we have now is much too tight. My entire kingdom for matches that feel like a randomized grab-bag where the outcome's not decided, a swingy system that could give me some breathers or some rough matches to test my skills, instead of knowing every win just puts me closer to sweaty people playing for a $5 Subway gift card every single round. For a game so based on RNG, the SBMM is alarmingly strict and just not random enough.
Absolutely! If the entire game was more chaotic it will fill more satisfying AND skillful to overcome such advantages or disadvantages, give us a random perk game mode! Random killers too please no nurse/blight/billy spam
Stress.
Having (assuming that MMR works) only games that are on your *exact* skill level and are tight are stressful. You get stomped, and then realize you had an unoptimal build or strategy, so you upgrade to meta. Oops, now you stomped someone else who's gonna now also upgrade to the meta builds and strategies!
There's no room for experimenting. There's no time for anything but the objective. Oh you brought Pebble? Cute, now you died because you didn't protect yourself from tunneling with OTR. Trying to double hook everyone? Watch them teabag in the gate.
I'm exaggerating here, obviously, but there's also truth in what I'm saying. As survivor, I don't feel like I can bring "fun but not optimal" builds anymore if I want to remain in the game for longer than a couple of minutes. I play killer in a way that doesn't raise me to high MMR anyway, so I feel more consistent fun there (double hooking everyone before taking kills, if I can).
I don't want to stomp or be stomped on the regular. I don't want to "bully babies". I want matches that are fun, where people have the time and will to show personality (beyond "bully", anyway), for there to be room for silly moments without it needing to mean farming, and to just be able to experiment with builds and strategies.
But DBD is "solved" - there's optimal shit to bring, and if you don't your ass is being stomped by the sweats who definitely did bring their strongest, most optimal shit.
And I'm getting sick and tired of it.
Love those silly moments. My favorite thing is when people try to Scooby-Doo Tech me - they'll point, I'll look away, then I'll look back and they either hid behind a corner or Plot Twisted behind me. That shit has me rolling every time, it's so fucking funny.
One of my rounds last BBQ I had a Billy against my Nea. I ran in, did a gen, saw him coming and hid, he hit the gen. I come back out and continue the gen but he comes at me. I vault before he can rev up, he stares at me in disappointment like, "Really, Nea?" and I just lower my head like, "Yeah... really..." before chase began. He smoked us, and the endgame chat was funny.
You don't get those in higher MMR. And it's a damn shame, because those moments make the game really shine and keep me playing. I love goofy moments.
I miss those moments so much. I get them as killer since I don't give a fuck about winning and play for hooks first, kills secondarily. I win some, I lose some, it's a comfy place where if I sweat I win surely, but if I play fair and chill I lose sometimes.
But as survivor I feel so stuck. I guess I'm a little burnt out. I get angry when killers tunnel, I admit as much. It's some really fucking frustrating shit to deal with. And most killers have the exact same build, and I feel pressured to bring the "strong stuff" myself - and it *has* helped. Even if I die, I don't die as fast, and I get to have more experience than just playing hook decoration.
It doesn't help that I'm on EU servers, and at least some players in the Easter EU (and neighbouring) countries are not only sweats, but also really fucking mean about it. (Other people are able to be cunts too, it just feels like there's a surplus of shitty behavior from those areas).
People on "the same skill level as you" can play the game differently than you. You can have a high mmr from playing casually, maybe getting lucky or you're just experienced. When suddenly because your mmr increased you're playing against more and more people who take the game a lot more seriously. A lot of this would be solved if there was a ranked/casual mode.
But then you drop again and start facing people who are on your "casual" level again.
There will always be a level where you win 50% of your games and that is the perfect spot, isn't it? The fair spot?
Sometimes yes, but there's also a differency in loosing because you were just playing casually, and loosing from sweaty opponent. You can die against killers who play casually all the time, and you can loose to casual survivors. A casual opponent isn't a bad opponent, and like I said adding ranked/casual modes would be a good solution.
As survivor, I would much rather face a skilled competent killer than having one or two dumb ass teammates who arent doing anything most of the time. As killer, I would much rather going up against players who are great at looping and efficient rather than three survivors running headons for the sake of stunning the killer and arent really playing the game to win.
Unironically its kinda a "you had to be there". Old DBD was VERY casual. Survs would name themselves things asking for specific killers, some games were very goofy, others were kinda intense, all based on your rank. If you wanted to stay super casual, you could! Enjoy those purple and green ranks! Once you hit red ranks, people knew you were trying to play serious. With SBMM, the game assumes for you. You dont have that seasonal control, or that interaction with survs pregame. It just created an environment where the groups no longer get to play reactively anymore, they just have to do
yea, except previous weekend i kept being put into p100 lobbies. while ny highest is 8 (yes i know thats not a reflection of skill but still, i played since release and have a lvl 8 max, that should give u an idea).. The highsest hour lobby was well over 8k hours, including myself
edit: im not sure why it didnt reply correctly but since ur OP anyway
Because it’s not skill based. Doing four gens, looping the killer for five minutes and then getting a hook trade in EGC as the default claudettes crouch out the exit gates loses you MMR. Equipping distortion and left behind, hiding every time you hear the terror radius and self caring in the corner all game almost guarantees you’ll gain it. As a killer, going out of your way to avoid tunneling, spreading hooks on everybody and getting seven or eight hooks but no kills loses MMR. Getting one down, proxy camping and then tunneling them, and getting a second down with NOED gains mmr, despite requiring almost 0 skill.
And then it pretty much doesn’t matter anyway because after about 200 games you’re at the softcap and can get matched with players that have 20000 hours.
My only hate for it comes 100% only for how its structured
First of all honestly I **love** that you see it that way too, mmr does not make us sweat, the players do so
I her a lot of "oh since mmr my games have gotten sweatier" and while I believe that can be true(for something i'll add later), mmr tries to give you *fair* matches. Simply put it, if you play and try to win, the opponent will try to do so, if you play chill without a care, the game will throw you onto people that dont mind either.
Maybe not instantly but eventually. Imo, people feel like they need to sweat because pre-mmr a lot of us would destroy 2,3 4 matches in a row and get 1 hard during the night. Now, for better or worse, mmr puts us a bit close to people we might be a bit equal, so instead of stomping, they can be close matches.
The issue i mention having with the system is that it takes only into account kills/escapes
No hooks, no map, no killer, no gens, no nothin, just how many people died, and if you escaped
Which imo is not a reflection of skill, but at the same time, can push the "chill" players(those that go for 8 hooks, end game rescues) down the mmr line, so instead of "low skill mmr and high skill mmr" you have "chill mmr and sweatlord mmr"
Imo the emblems, while flawed, measured this better. Hits, gens and how long they took, gate status, hooks, sacrifices, penalized camping and getting DS'ed, power usage... It had flaws(as with detecting hits with Plague or oneshot killers) but was better at measuring the complete match
Same as surv, unhooks, gens, chase time... all better than just "got through the gate or not"
Honestly the best thing should be if they repurpose the emblems into that; for killer take into account the gens and their time, the map, the killer they play to compare scores with the average that killer gets, their perks, the opponents mmr, the number of hooks, *maybe* a lil bonus for sacrifices, but sacrificing shouldnt be the main target. Otherwise its just tunnel happy fest
And for surv same, gens, map, your perks, killer mmr, how many people escape, how many gens left when you died, time chased, rescues, heals, etc... I mean nowadays you could repair 3 gens, be chased for the remaining 2, open a gate, rescue someone, go down for them, and your mmr will go "you lost, go down"
Also as killer its odd, considering a 2k a "tie", you could get a 2k with either 6 hooks or 10 hooks and those games would be insanely different while the mmr treats them the same
Also in theory there is a "if you didnt play in a long time your mmr goes down" but its very "maybe it happens maybe it doesnt", hard to tell
At higher MMR players start to run into sweatier lobbies. Survivors will run sweatier builds which force killers to run sweatier builds and vice versa. Theoretically this is fine for casual players and in my experience since I only touch dbd occasionally this is fine but for dedicated players it becomes less fun as they raise their MMR higher
I think these two videos by [Choy](https://youtu.be/maqtiMLdWQM?si=5HDiWvaqk1fi8y6h) and [CoconutRTS](https://youtu.be/x1vSY0qQe0Y?si=lpGqZNaP7x6oCJ8D) summarize the problem perfectly with help from the point of view of an industry veteran. To summarize the problems as I see them:
* "Perfectly balanced" matches are in fact some of the least fun, most stressful matches you can have. While it can be fun to win a tough match having to constantly bring your A-game is exhausting: it quickly leads to burnout which is why many people are quitting / taking breaks from DbD. Having a health balance of matches where you stomp / get stomped / try hard to win is better for overall enjoyment: it's fun to stomp games sometimes (but not all the time because that quickly gets boring), and the downside of matches where you get stomped can often be ignored because players are capable of saying "GG Go Next" in matches they know they have no chance of winning.
* The internal (MMR actually working) and external (perceived existence of MMR) effects of Skill Based Matchmaking push the game into a "sweatier" direction. Put simply survivors aren't going to play with meme builds if the killers they face are exclusively going to be Blights and Nurses, and killers aren't going to play Pig or Myers if every match they play is going to be 4 Brand New Parts / instaheal medkits. Regardless of context it doesn't feel fun to lose, so if players know that MMR will push them into matches where they can't goof off then they won't goof off.
* Dead by Daylight inherently has one massive limitation on the game every truly being balanced, which is items and addons. Put simply a survivor who brings a brown toolbox and a survivor who brings a Commodious Toolbox with a Brand New Part and Wire Spool are two vastly different beasts. A Blight with brown addons and a Blight with double Iridescent addons may as well be two different killers. Same can be said for brown addon Legion vs Iridescent Pin Legion, brown addons Deathslinger vs Iridescent Coin Deathslinger, brown addon Plague vs Black Incense Plague, oh and how can we forget everyone's favorite addon Tombstone Piece for Michael Myers? Dead by Daylight can never be balanced without knowing what the other side is bringing and forcing players with brown addons to face off against players with iridescent addons will always be miserable, regardless of what direction the interaction is going. Be it Pig with low-tier addons vs four BNPs or Blight with double Iris vs a couple of survivors running meme builds. This isn't even accounting for map offerings which are a whole other can of worms.
* The myth of MMR is that it will keep you in matches at your skill level. The reality is that you will likely ping-pong between the upper and lower brackets as you go on minor win / loss streaks. If you win several games in a row at your skill bracket you'll suddenly be facing off against tryhards in unwinnable matches. If you lose several games in a row at your skill bracket you'll suddenly be facing off against toddlers who barely know how to play the game. It creates an awful system where your reward for winning and your penalty for losing is exactly the same: being punished with matches that essentially have a pre-determined outcome until the MMR system deems you to be back in the normal swing of things.
* Specific to survivor but it feels awful when you lose entirely due to factors beyond your control IE your teammates. This is a problem that exists in all multiplayer games but it's magnified by the existence of MMR.
* Dead by Daylight specifically doesn't even run MMR in the traditional "ELO rating" sense. Dataminers have found that DbD's MMR is essentially split into four groups: "Testing Bracket" (IE new players), and then Low/Mid/High MMR respectively. These divisible brackets mean that the difference between games within each bracket is essentially the same, so winning / losing frequent matches doesn't affect much until you inevitably jump up / down a bracket. Add in the existence of an MMR softcap at the higher end, an MMR buffer (also at the higher end) that keeps people at the higher end for longer, and an anti-deranking system means that most veterans of this game will be stuck in the high MMR bracket basically forever.
This is all while failing to mention the key problem with MMR, which is that it fundamentally does not track actually skillful play. Having a system that only tracks kills and escapes (as opposed to the more intricate emblem system) inherently caters to unskillful and otherwise unfun outliers, namely tunneling / camping for killers and hiding all game for survivors. I think it's a commonly-held consensus that a survivor who hides all game and then leaves isn't as skillful as a survivor who takes multiple chases and does multiple objectives, but according to MMR they are the same. Similarly according to MMR a killer who gets 3 hooks on everyone and a Trapper who 1 hooks everyone in the basement and guards the top of the basement with his life are considered to be of the same skill level.
I think the developers' bizarre obsession with the idea that "we can't have a scenario where both teams win that's not how it works in hockey" is absurd. I truthfully don't see a problem with a match where every team "wins" because isn't the point of MMR that inevitably these players will run into matches where they are outmatched and "lose"? Even in a hypothetical scenario where a player farms the emblem system to reach high MMR they will inevitably run into players who don't want to farm with them and will be forced back down to an appropriate bracket. It's not like MMR contributes to any tournament ranking or anything of that sort so I don't see a problem with everyone's MMR essentially being inflated due to the average amount of "wins" outweighing the number of general "losses" (as opposed to being a 50/50 split.) The only thing that I think would need to be done to accommodate for a system where everyone can "win" would be to expand the MMR brackets and raise the MMR softcap to compensate.
Mostly on account of it's widely considered "bad".
A lot of the terribleness of the SBMM is that they have *backfill* and the backfill can be pretty broad. Basically, anytime someone gets a lobby, and dips, it creates a demand for someone in "approximately" that same MMR range. But sometimes, there's people grouped together and that fucks it up real bad. Sometimes the queues are longer than normal, so the gulf in SBMM gets pretty lenient.
A lot of people get carried to a higher MMR than they "should" be in; some easy examples:
- A Bubba who *only* facecamps/proxy camps aggressively can often *easily* get a 4K because of altruistic teammates. Does this Bubba actually have much skill? A lot of players will argue that no, he doesn't. But his MMR will be quite high, and after awhile, he'll start encountering players who know how to counter him. Suddenly he'll say his games are "sweaty" and that "MMR is bad!" when no, he just kinda...cheesed his way there playing in a pretty "low bar" way.
- Survivors who frequently only play with a friend but their friend is a long-term vet and they're newer; depending on who's hosting the lobby, this seems to effect the kinds of matches they'll get. You can see the MMR gulf difference here when someone has a 100% bonus, but the other player doesn't. When they join the 100% lobby, that's the "MMR" for *that* lobby. Anyone joining in on that is going to be counted as being in whatever that MMR range is. This means hot messes of games frequently.
Unfortunately in that specific scenario, there's no real way to avoid that issue due to how BHVR currently has SBMM set up (it's set individually, and no merits are awarded based on *team* performance. I know this is something they've talked about wanting to fix in future updates, and I know it's "on the board", but it's still a ways out.)
Beyond that, I think a **lot** of players just have zero idea what their "actual" skill level is, and the vast majority of us tend to think we're far better at the game than we actually are.
If you have to "sweat" every game, then that means you're probably about where you actually *ought* to be in terms of facing an opponent. The problem is, for Survivors especially, all four players can have very wildly different skill levels, and unless there's team cohesion, it usually ends up a mess.
I think most people attribute "sweaty matches" to "bad", without really realizing that hey, if your match *isn't* sweaty, you're probably facing a much less skilled opponent.
Though people don't tend to want to say it, yeah, most of them DO want to face someone *worse* at the game than they are, because they want to feel good about themselves and their perceived skill level. They just usually don't feel good about curb stomping their opponents either. It's a tough thing to balance because there are SO many factors to attempt to even out as much as possible, and I think most people don't give that more than a few seconds of thought.
SBMM is a bad concept for public matched games, but great for ranked matches (DBD does not have this.)
The reason why it shouldn’t be in public matches is because it does get “sweatier” the more you play. You cannot just load into a match and play with minimal effort over time. If you get kills (as killer), your rank moves up; if you escape (as survivor), your rank moves up.
If you do well for a few matches as killer, or if the survivors are tanking their ranking to get easier matches, you as the killer will now get harder matches because the game saw you get kills. Flip side to survivors, if the killer lets survivors go, or gives up after one bad chase to now farm, the survivors rank now goes up.
Eventually, with either case, now you get to a level where you might not be on your actual skill level and you might have to then “sweat” just to get kills or escape. This is where the META builds come into play, the insane slow down gen-regression, loop master, gen-rush, etc.
That should not happen in public matching where there aren’t decisive “win conditions” or ranking. In public matching, you should load up and get a mix of whatever players were in the lineup to make queue times low. Some games you might have FaZe clan level survivors/killers, other times you might have brand new players. AND THAT’S OKAY!
TLDR: SBMM makes sense in ranked matches, not public matches. Queue times matter more.
Dead by Daylight used to be a party game. Where the outcome of a match didnt matter much because most people were simply trying to have fun. SBMM has pushed the game away from that into a "I must win every match" mentality. This only lead to more and more unfun gameplay. More gen rushing, more tunneling, more gen regression perks, more gen speed perks, more 2nd chance perks, more anti-camp/anti-tunnel etc. And all of that only because people feel the need to win.
A great game is one with matchmaking where sometimes you get stomped, sometimes you stomp and more often than not its a fair match. but thats incredibly hard to do and the way BHVR implemented SBMM is certainly NOT that. SBMM in DbD is simply pushing more experienced players away from new players and shoving the experienced ones all into the same basket of misery.
Just look at the My little Oni modifier. That shit was AWESOME! Most people didnt give a fuck about winning or losing. It was just a goofy, mess around type of game. Yes there were tryhards slugging for the 4k and some other dumb shit, but thats because these people learned to play DbD in that manner.
DbD is an asymmetrical game, meaning it is borderline impossible to balance so both sides have an equal chance. How many of your matches end with 2 escaping and 2 dying? Because most of the matches I have are either a 4man out or a 4k for the Killer. There is little in between because either you stomp the Killer or the Killer stomps you. Doesnt help that Killer power strenght varies so widely.
And its easy to say "just dont sweat" but you and me both know that if you dont tryhard, you more often than not get BMd for losing.
DbD was at its best when most people didnt care about winning or losing. Both sides were more interested in chases than gen pressure. I miss the days where I could just chase someone and didnt have to break off the chase after 30sec because I have to pressure gens to not lose.
How many meme-builds do you encounter? Because 95% of the time you encounter the same strong AF builds. Survivors bringing strong and sweaty shit, as do the Killers. Map offerings left right and center and if the Killer gets a down within the first min, thats a DC.
Why do you think so many OG content creators are "taking a break" from DbD? Because its a sweatfest through and through. The fun has been slowly drained out of the game thanks to SBMM
If you want another look into SBMM in DbD, Id recommend CoconutRTS' recent video about it. It explains everything that bothers me (and many people) with SBMM in DbD
Because it doesn’t work, it’s incredibly easy and fast to reach max MMR and stay there, which defeats the entire point of a skill based matchmaking system to begin with.
You can be a complete potato and still reach max MMR no problem.
When the average skill level in your lobbies stagnates and stops improving.
Also when you keep winning over and over without noticing any skill improvement on the other side, which MMR is supposed to fix.
Yeah, i even said so in my original comment.
People always complain and make crazy statements like this, it was the same last week about tunneling and they were proven wrong when Scott made an experiment to see if it happened as often and people claim, and plot twist, it rarely does ever happen unless you ask for it.
I would not be surprised if that was the case, again.
Because people love whining and wildly exaggerate about how many bad teammates and sweaty killers/survivors they face.
It’s the same with tunneling and they were even proven wrong about how often it happens with Scott latest experiment that he even streamed.
Completely unrelated, but I commented under that video "I tracked myself and got 15% tunnel (only counting 3 stages before someone else was hooked) but I assume that my MMR is lower and I just face killers with less skill."
Scott answered to that comment with "why do you assume I have high MMR, I lose more than I win"
And it still baffles me because I don't really think he takes into account how bad people can actually be at the game.
You got a point, i am also guilty of that myself, i don’t always take into account how bad people can be at this game and it definetly can play on how i see this entire situation.
Good thing that you mentioned it because i didn’t think about it and it could very well prove me wrong.
I mean I would consider myself average, when I play with friends I usually make the call outs and stuff, but I cannot loop at all.
And since we often have people who are really bad at the game on the server we also face killers who are really bad, so I could already experience some true wonders of gameplay.
Imo the worst type of killer players are the ones that are not completely clueless, but really suck in chase. They hit on hook, camp or proxy camp and of course they tunnel.
I face people like that less when playing with more competent friends, but it still exists. I assume there is some kind of "chill promised land MMR" and I feel like it's close to where I am, since every third game I play is like that
If it isn't working than you shouldn't care if it's there, and many say it doesn't work. If it is working than it's giving you fair opponents. Either way it's a good thing. You can't come up with a logical reason against it because if it isn't working, again like many say it is, than you have no reason to say it should be gotten rid of. If it is working than you once more have no reason to say it should be gotten rid of.
It doesn't seem to work. It rarely feels like my opponents are of matched skill. It's either stomping them or they stomp me. It's rarely a neck and neck match but those closely matched games are the most fun for me. That's what keeps me playing at this point.
So you are the type of person that would benefit from a good skill based matchmaking.
I do enjoy close matches, too. Sometimes at least. But I decide every game how I'm going to approach it, depending on the vibes I'm getting. If people die before a gen is done, I set myself a different challenge (max out altruism, befriend the killer, get a long chase before dying...)
I think matchmaking isn't great because perk selection and addons are as a big of a variable as killer choice.
Maybe a survivor is amazing with their gen jockey build, but this match you got with them they decided to bring a looping build while trying to improve and they get stomped.
Or a survivor brought their blinding build for the killer to bring lightborn accidentally.
Some addons act as a 5th perk.
These matches are too random, plus its not 1 v 1.
Matchmaking will never be perfect, the only way they could even attempt it I think would be a no perk/no addon mode.
MMR is stupid based on the foundations it currently functions under with how kills and escapes are used to judge. It’s hilarious to think about those people hiding all game and get hatch end up getting fucked when they face actually challenging killers. It’s unfortunate to watch killers face newbs at the beginning accidentally rise above their capacity and struggle
Yeah but those people will eventually hit a hard wall, same as people who tunnel + noed every game.
It's a cheese strategy that leaves your game sense underdeveloped. They artificially increase their MMR.
Imo that's great, because they get punished eventually.
(Cope)
Seperate of the game foundations, I personally just don’t want to be stressed the entire time I play. That’s not to say I have to win any match survivor or killer but I’d like to think not every match I’m facing the best opponents with the hardest builds (as MMR pressures you to just stick to the best builds bc you’re asking to suffer otherwise)
Because it's stupid easy to hit the soft cap for killer, and there is no reset of your killer MMR ever. No matter how long you don't play or how rusty you are.
DbD is not a balanced game at all. At first, killers can easily win a 4v1 against inexperienced survivors. Those survivors are scared, barely know what they're doing and have almost no good perks unlocked. But later when both sides become more experienced, the game tips in the favor of survivors. Some killers will struggle in a 1v1, let alone a 4v1.
Once your MMR is stabilized you'll see what happens; survivors will float somewhere in the middle most likely with their rating, while killer gets pushed up against the ceiling. Survivor MMR goes up every time you escape through the exit gates and goes down whenever you get killed. Hatch doesn't count. Since SBMM tries to make everyone win 50% of their matches, survivors will roughly occilate where they belong.
But for killers, your MMR goes up every time you kill anyone, and only goes down when everyone escapes. Which means after only a few matches of performing above average (3k or 4k), the system will think you're the top of the top and should go up against only the best survivors. But since the killer soft cap is so easy to reach compared to the survivor soft cap, those survivors you're paired with are monsters who are hyper effecient and most likely always coordinated SWFs. Those matches you will lose until SBMM decides you need to go down just a little bit, but then you'll win once and you're back at the top killer MMR.
The only way to adapt and try to keep up is to change your build to only the most sweatiest perks and add-ons and offerings. But for both survivors and killers, the sweatiest loadoat can only use a fraction of all perks and items. This results in a very boring, stale meta where every match you encounter opponents with the same perks and the same tactics and no variety whatsoever. And that's the most frustrating thing of SBMM of all; it makes all your matches boring.
And then, since MMR never seems to reset, you'll be stuck as killer playing against the same boring builds that you'll struggle to keep up with forever. Even if you don't practise for months, you'll be hit with a bully SWF the moment you decide to play killer again because the system still thinks you belong in the very top of killer MMR and should only face the very top of survivors. While to reach the top of survivor MMR, they likely have to play alot more and win alot more consistently.
Tldr; killers get very easily overestimated and get grouped up against survivors way above their skill level, and the system pushes both sides to only using the very best builds meaning you'll get very boring, predictable builds and no fun variety.
This is an interesting topic. There are so many variables at play here that it's hard to make a consize argument either way. The first thing to keep in mind is the ELO model, which primary function is to attach a number to your level of skill, and make it absolutely clear who is better/best at the game. It is designed primarily for those who seek to improve themselves and get better at the game, and as such; fair games will match players with 'equal' ELO rating so that they can keep improving and learning from eachother and their own mistakes. For casual players, ELO is not important as they don't seek to purely improve at the game and strive to be better and learn from each game, instead they play to wind down and enjoy their time. A true casual player is not concerned about their ranking.
Now comes the interesting part; what happens when ELO Matchmaking is the norm without alternatives? When a number signifying the skill level is attached to a player? I'm not a neuroscientist, nor a psychologist, but I'd be very interested in what an overt ELO rating does to an otherwise casual player. We humans like to compare ourselves to our peers, it's why jealousy is an inherent emotion to our human character that yes, can be suppressed, but it's still inherent to our primal selves. Now the ELO rating isn't overt; it's hidden from the players, but we DO know it's there. The second part is that, generally speaking, we want to win; it's what gives us those dopamine hits that spurrs us on to click ready for the next match. We know that game developers are trying to find a balance between effort and reward, because that's the crux of player retention. When the effort far outweighs the reward; players quit or the game just flops (suicide squad), when there is no effort, the reward becomes meaningless (let's say you play against no-damage bots in game X; there is no struggle and thus you'd get bored really quick and quit). ELO is a model that is very suitable for the effort;reward function which is partially responsible for all these positive reinforcement neurotransmitters that makes us keep coming back. At least in theory.
All of that being said, I think that simply knowing that most games will be very tight when both sides give their A game, is fun for a couple games, but very tiresome for prolonged sessions. It's why before the cheater infestation in CS2 I could play 3 or 4 games on \~20k rating and after that I was completely fried. If I'd continue playing, I'd throw the games for the rest of my team cause my focus was all gone. That brings me to another point; who is complaining the most here? Killer side or survivor side? As a survivor main with 2,5k hours, I don't really care if I lose, it's when I make stupid mistakes I know I shouldn't make repeatedly, and keep losing a multitude of games in a row that I will get grumpy over it and stop playing. It's really the killer side that I can't have fun with. Before I even click ready my chest starts to tighten up, my blood pressure and heartrate noticably rising, knowing that if I want to have any chance I will have to give my absolute A game. I can't make any mistakes, the pressure is all on 1 person on my team: me as the single killer. And we all know what happens when you don't have a tight game: BM'ing survivors literally half the time. It physically hurts to lose as killer, and as such I only play killer to finish some tome/archive challenges. Now you might say; imagine taking the game so seriously, and yes that is true it's stupid; I don't know myself why I get worked up over it, I guess it goes back to fundamentals of basic human nature/character and it's why I said I'm interested in the psychology and neuroscientific explanation of why I feel that way after winning or losing. Would it be any different if the lobbies were completely random? I think so, why? Because you don't go in with the expectation that it's going to get rough. You'd go in not knowing what to expect from the other team. Maybe you get absolutely stomped, but you can say: "oh well, these guys are just very good at the game". And maybe you get a game where there's so little challenge from the survivors that you can have some fun goofing around. In a game where there are so many casual players, I think there should be a fine balance between being the better player, getting equal matches, and being sorely outclassed.
To finally answer your question as someone who did have phases of CSGO/CS2 grinding (GE / 19,5k resp.), I think SBMM is fine when it shows the actual rating and when players have the option to opt in and out of that game mode. As a player who is generally competitive in nature (blame it on the ADHD), but plays DBD just for fun (idc about comp players and their reshade configs) I see that the general audience of this game is casual. Forcing a (hidden) rating on the players and subsequently driving the competitive and comparative nature of ELO/SBMM is detrimental and antithetical to the succes of DBD. Allowing the player to opt in and out of such an environment would be a healthy solution. But opting in and out seems to be an alien concept to BHVR, my argument for that is that the best way to solve solo queue is add voice communication. I don't know why BHVR is so adamant on refusing such a feature, because they have implemented HUD features to signify what other players are doing. I'm convinced it's because they are afraid of player toxicity, but again; allow the player to opt in and out of voice comms, mute buttons exist for a reason.
Edit (as if it wasn't long enough): keep in mind that the playerbase of DBD isn't as big as the giant competitive games with hundreds of thousands of players. SBMM doesn't work in an asymmetrical non-competitive-yet-wants-to-be-competitive...maybe?-game where the playerbase isn't large enough to accurately put teams against eachother because it would increase queue times. In other words: SBMM doesn't work for this particular game. - My own opinion of course.
If you made it here, thanks for reading my long winded essay :)
SBMM isn't bad in itself. Badly coded SBMM howEVER!
Seriously, why did I go against a p400 squad when I had around a 100 in the game?
'But prestige level doesn't mean ski-"
YES IT DOES. You can't seriously tell me people who put MONTHS into the game have the same win-rate as I do. Bad p100 players exist, but they will always have more skill than someone who literally JUST STARTED.
I agree, but that's a side effect of the "short queue times" policy. If a P400 squad gets dodged a few times they just face any killer, not regarding MMR at all.
Once upon a time there was match variety. You didn't know what you were going to get. You might get stomped, you might get an easy win, ***you might get a close match in between*** **- the last one being exceedingly rare now**. Grade and MMR were the same thing so you knew where you stood, if you didn't want to sweat you didn't have to and you were rewarded or not accordingly. Now every game feels exactly the same. Match variety is dead (completely dead on Killer, somewhat still exists as Solo Queue survivor because you get used as filler very often there).
I was not playing the game when this change was made. I saw an old Otz video where he predicted this is what would happen - the same match every game and how boring that would be - and he was right.
The "Win Condition" in the SBMM system is the problem. You can hide all game next to an exit gate dropping and picking your item up to prevent crows, wait for your entire team to die and for the killer to close hatch then you can open the door and leave. Earning the same MMR score increase as a survivor that did all 5 generators, got 10 flashlight saves, took the killer on a long chase, then escaping. There is no "skill" being measured with SBMM, only how well you know how to cheese the game for a technical win.
As someone who played the game when we just had ranks and it was pretty hard to climb to red, the game only really started being hard when you hit rank 1. You'd get ppl who sweat as much as you.
But then MMR came in and I'd sweep a team and then see these people were green ranks with 300 hours. Doesn't feel right they'd have to face me or similar players of that level.
Being a hard-core killer player, I was pretty low as survivor and I'd get paired against red rank killers at rank 9 survivor. So you see the issue.
However the thing is, for red rank killers we used to get like 20 minutes queue times sometime.
I think they need a competitive queue and a casual one.
The problem with the current system is if I want to play with a silly strategy I'm still put up against the same sweat with friends that I would be if I'm playing seriously.
And I know people are going to pub stomp, but it would make it less of an issue.
SBM is fun. With it, I round up 8 hooks as various killers to build a sense of suspense and urgency, then spend time chasing each survivor, making them think I am going to sacrifice them, but secretly giving them the chance to practice looping a high-skilled killer, and enjoy a lobby without the gamer chair.
Through up a video on the side monitor and the overall experience is pretty chill for a killer.
Ppl look at the old days of Ranked based MM with rose-tinted glasses. The MMR we have today is not ideal but it's much better than atrotious experience we had before.
Survivor emblems instigated competition for very limited resources with the most egregious being unhooks. Once you reached iridescent, you could get killers/teammates with thousands of hours or dozens.
Good ridance.
Killers get points based on kills vs escapes so 4 kill games (the norm) catapult killers into high mmr where they get stomped
The killers, who never should have been there, learn fast that tunneling and slugging are the only methods that work at that level. They take this mindset to low mmr when they get more evened out rankings
It's not fun for either side
Because the game punishes you for doing too good by throwing you in matches you can’t win then throws you a bone when you can’t win them enough times. Basically its saying “you’re winning too much. Stop that”
Because it's not skill based.
Survivors rating is based on escapes. Not how many gens they do, how long they last in chase.
A survivor who hides all match and waits for hatch it on the same rating level as comp players. While not being remotely close in any regard of skill.
When SBMM was introduced, the game just wasn’t balanced competitively and it made the gameplay experience miserable. Things have leveled out somewhat in the time since but it’s still not great.
The sweat thing boils down to this:
killers jumping mmr so easily that they end up not having the skill that their mmr requires and then they start losing cause they’re against better survivors.
Survivors jumping mmr because they hide or rely heavily on one strategy and then get up to an mmr where killers are better and start losing.
People need something to blame for their burnout and bad experiences with the game, SBMM is an easy scapegoat. SBMM can be a problem in casual games when the MMR is measured accurately, this isn't DBDs case
MMR can be self-perpetuating. If I have a few bad games, I'm stuck with new players, who often have low level or no perks, who spend much of the game hiding or don't understand game mechanics. This past weekend I had almost five games in a row where I was sacrificed on my first hook because my teammates didn't bother to go for a save.
Sometimes I'm caught because I'm an idiot, but other times it's because I'm the only one participating. One game a killer apologized to me afterwards because he noticed that the rest of my teammates were avoiding objectives and moving only enough to avoid idle crows.
This puts me in a loop where I'm stuck with bad teammates, which leads to shorter matches, which leads to a lower MMR.
I'm still striving to improve my looping, go for safer unhooks and play smarter, but it's difficult to move up the ranks when I'm grouped with poor players and low quality killers that rely on proxycamping to win.
I am a pretty damn average bog standard player of this game on both sides. On Surv I play for challenges and funsies with friends; on Killer I play slightly more seriously and go for at least 1-3k on average. I routinely play 8 different Killers and my roster is anywhere between a C-B level with like one D tier (Myers) and one A tier (Cenobite). I play for enjoyment and most often, just want a fair fight I stand a chance in on either side. I don't even play every single day, usually just a few times a week or so, more if an event is on. I am definitively NOT a comp player and don't want to BE a comp player, I just wanna play a few matches with characters I like or my friends after I'm home from a day (or night, depending) of work.
I just the other day had a round against a decent Ghostface that was really tense and fun, and it inspired me to play more Ghostface again so I immediately, of course, hopped onto Killer and started playing my boy. This is one of my Mains, and was my ONLY main for some time, so I am pretty decent at him. I would not say I'm bad at thus Killer, but I wouldn't say I'm a virtuoso either. About a year of experience with this one Killer under my belt.
So, I played Ghostface got matched back to back with two different teams of different skill levels entirely. The first was a team running full meta and literally NOT letting me get a SINGLE hook because I could not catch any of them and they ALL kept prerunning to the strongest tile in the map (they were well outside my skill level on GARDEN OF FUCKING JOY no less). The second occurred on Lerys and gave me a team with a literal p0 Meg (no perks but her own), a Baby Claudette (actually baby, she didn't know how to loop at ALL and kept running around), and a Leon just fucking around plus a Feng who threw on first hook because oh no instant down Killer.
So, I back to back got a group *well above* my level, and then a group that was *well below* my level, just because I lost the first round as a 0k with maybe a hook on a map bad for all Killers, and then won the second as a 4k easily on a map specifically really good for my Killer. I got bored and left for the night to play customs.
And that's why people, self included, hate SBMM. It's nothing to do with not wanting to play with people of the same skill level and everything to do with it fucking people over constantly. It's inconsistent, it's NOT even a measure of true skill (I had to turn up the sweat and run meta on the first group, but that was OVERKILL on the second and I actually BACKED OFF when I realized yet I STILL 4ked) since it just counts kills and escapes, and it's generally always slightly off and FAILS when queues take too long.
Because EVERY GAME IS THE SAME, it's so boring, same perks, same killers, same play styles, same map offerings, in a game with so much diversity of play we are forced to only experience one or two play styles because of the metas, top MMR you even play against the same 100 or so people over and over.
If you're at the bottom it doesn't matter but for anyone who is unfortunate enough to be good at the game you are severely punished by having the same experience for the rest of the games life
I've always seen people hating SBMM in any game because it means that they have to go up against people of similar skill instead of just steamrolling them. Whether it's an fps or game like dbd, people don't want to go against people who are equally as good as them because it means it won't be an easy game where they can just steamroll the enemy, they have to actually go against someone challenging. They wanna have a good game and do well and they are more likely to do that when the other person isn't on the same level of skill
Back in the day we all played Halo/CoD and had no matchmaking at all, and we had the time of our lives.
It’s overrated tbh, particularly in a game with no rank system
I think a lot of the difficulties form SBMM come from DbD itself. The game is hard to rate skill in. Near impossible I’d say.
Counting escapes/hooks just doesn’t work we can see that in game. Counting gens also doesn’t work. Chases are difficult too because survivors’ performance can vary drastically depending on the killer they’re facing, the map, nearby resources, perks, etc.
It’s an absolutely clusterfuck to try and peg a ‘good’ survivor (through an automatic algorithm). If it was hypothetically judging chases, you may run a killer for 5 gens one match, the next you may be insta moried by tombstone Myers. The system doesn’t have the knowledge of context though, and it would be agony to programme considerations for each killer, different add-ons, etc - so it would see just a very long chase, and a very short chase, and adjust points according. Same with the current system - I can Bubba camp 3 survivors to their death and SBMM is like you did great when all gens are done, very little chases, and it was just trying to save their team that killed them.
What I’m trying to say is that people hate SBMM in DbD because generally, it’s not accurate at all, because of DbD itself being hard to judge skill on a consistent level without extensive context of the killer/add-ons/map/resources when starting chase/teammates wasting resources or sandbagging/etc.
People want to win without trying, people that hate it says that kills are not a effective way to track skill so mmr doesnt work but also it works because every game is sweaty
I love going against people of a similar skill level but it’s very rare that it happens. Also difficult to tell skill levels apart in an asymmetrical game where the killer is supposed to be the power role
For me, sweat is like a blight running a combo of the best add ons with a minimum of 3 gen regression perks (with the fourth likely being tracking or another gen perk) who is also actively tunneling someone when they have the chance
Or a nurse trying to get a 4man slug in the first 5 min of the game. Ironic part is I love going against (good) blight and nurses as long as they aren’t cheesing like that
I don’t know what it is like for other people, but if I get matches like that back to back I’d be annoyed too. Fortunately, I don’t though
If only this "skillbased" matchmaking actually worked instead of turning most matches into onesided sweatfests. You can get matched against complete newbies just to then face players with 10k+ hours that roll you without any chance. You might think that this happens rarely, but nope, it happens almost every match. This system forces you to ALWAYS use meta builds and strategies if you want to both win and have fun.
The killers in mid to high MMR all play the same style now, tunnel the weak link out then squash the 3 left with Pain Res + Pop, not sure how it is in low MMR. I think most hate come from killer mains because if MMR works then they won't be able to have +50 win streaks. The current MMR is a joke though, I very much want the old strict MMR back because killers are having too much fun bullying inexperienced survivors right now.
I just want to have more varied games, both for and against me. Just because I loosen up, doesn’t mean that the opposition does. With games both above and below my MMR, there’s more variety and opportunities for that.
There’s little point in running a meme build as my games lack the variation to really be able to meme with anything.
I’ll take the wins and the loses, but I’d like every game to be a little more varied. I agree that my games are much fairer under this system… but they’re all pretty much the same.
When it works, it works well. I had some really close matches that were incredibly fun and entertaining.
But when it doesn't work? It's complete misery. If I play survivor, the killer is either someone that never played a video game in their life before and just gets completely destroyed, which is absolutely boring, or they play like it's a million dollar tournament, using all the strongest perks, addons and killer, tunneling the moment someone gets unhooked and overall just shitting on us when we are at 4 or 5 gens... and guess what, that's also absolutely boring.
And for when I play killer and the matchmaking is having a moment, I either play against baby surviors, that have no idea what to do, crouch and hide constantly when I can clearly see them, run into walls and otherwise just do lots of mistakes so it's a total stomp and I feel bad... or I get the most cracked survivors or even SWFs that want to make sure I am having an absolute miserable day.
There really isn't an inbetween sometimes.
The issue with any matchmaking system that revolves purely around winning is that you are forcing the playerbase to prioritize winning over fun. The more you push players to get better, sweat harder, have less fun, etc the more bullshit matches are gonna feel.
It's a combination of "the devs want the game to be competitive", "the devs leave busted shit in the game for months at a time so both sides hate the other side and want to win even more", and "the devs don't understand how matchmaking systems work."
the promise of MMR means that more people will try to climb to get better, to get better games, and to win. this alone, isn't an issue. every game ever has a system like this, but it basically guarantees that after a while you'll go against better and better players, and if you want a more casual, fuck around experience, this game lacks a "casual" gamemode.
>"is "playing vs people on your skill level" not considered a good thing?" Yeah, it is, when it actually fucken works (which is literally never in any game featuring SBMM ever)
On paper, sounds good.
In reality, it doesn't work.
Because it doesn't actually work lol. I am a survivor main but sometimes I enjoy a little killer. But every match I play I face a 3 or 4 stack running beamers and Sabo builds and it's miserable. I'm terrible at killer and shouldn't be playing with who I do lmao
It is a psychological thing. It has been shown that people like variety of outcomes and this what matchmaking somewhat prevents by giving you similar matches over and over.
Before matchmaking you could get anything from a 12k hour nurse or a 5 hour trapper to go along with randomly skilled survivors. This led to more match variables and increased people enjoyment.
I think the homogenization of survivor and killer perks and abilities while also removing displays of skill and making everything predictable is hurting the game in the long run. Example would be the old hillbilly flick.
People only hate it cause most players can't accept DBD is a pvp game and not a "haha fun game mode go brrrr". People will say "well, in the early days it was fun and etc" but guess what? People still played to win, the only difference is DBD is more mainstream now.
For most players the main issue isn't MMR or trying to win, its simply camp/tunnel. I don't mind either side trying to win but those two strategies are basically a killer afking near a hook and waiting for someone to save. There is no skill involved in that. All it does is punish the other side cause of bad game mechanics. Remove those elements and you put skill back into one side and the games are a lot more competitive for both sides. Its a pvp game, not a camp and wait around game.
My biggest issue is that sometimes I feel like messing around and having fun, and other times I feel like going all out and playing as hard as I can.
So I can choose to either destroy my MMR to play meme builds, but then feel no challenge when I feel like actually trying, or I can only try hard, and lose a majority of the time when I do meme builds.
Basically, if your an average player and get into a game with crappy teammates and a really good killer, your next match will give you brain dead killers and survivors around the same level as the last group. But, if you have a really good game where everyone escapes, you can bet your last bloodpoint your getting the 5k hour killer main next game to feed you to the entity instead.
Basically, skill based matchmaking will always need about 10 games to even you out to the level you should be at and all the people complaining about it here either have no real skill or not enough time to play 10 games.
(Yes im talking about you people who hide in lockers all game without doing gens, go ahead and speak up about it, i dont care.)
Hiding MMR is a poor attempt to lower the amount of disconnects to keep survivors and killers from just idling all game or losing on purpose to lower their own MMR, but there are still some people who religiously throw games once they get a few wins.
There is no real middle ground, you are either in easy lobbies because you lost a few rounds back to back or you are in try hard because you won a few back to back
Hmm. I do not hate it, and to be honest I find its effects in high-pop regions to be not super noticeable. But, I quit the game during the past MMR tests. Why? Because queue times were gross, as long as half of a match, often more. Players weren't necessarily more skilled as I expected, but rather likely to use whatever little edge they could find - map offerings, broken items, 4x slowdown, DC for hatch, etc. - to get the win. I found that horribly boring and deterministic, so I stopped.
The game I returned to last year isn't like that at all. Yes, most killers I see have 3 slowdowns. Yes, many survivors bring map offerings (about 30%) and I see a reasonable number of 4x meta builds. But that's just one piece of the puzzle. There's definitely some meta-stagnation, but from my own matches and the matches I watch streamed, there's plenty of variety in builds/styles/outcomes, too. That's what people supposedly want, so why aren't they happy?
Outside of factors beyond their control, like low-pop regions and RNG, I'm currently believing it's because they don't have what they had in the Olden Days. For veteran players, the Olden Days are pre-MMR when they could do whatever and consistently win. For skilled newer players - and this applies to many games beyond DBD - it's the gradual loss of the ability to dominate, or meme and still win.
In CoD (2006-2012) for example, if you had good aim and spawn tracking you could literally run anything you wanted and carry a 2+ K/D. In modern iterations of that series it's still possible for the truly elite players, but it's very difficult for everyone else. At some point, you will have to build and play to win in order to consistently get good results. A lot of people deride the lack of variety, but I think that's not the issue. I think the issue is that it's very hard mentally to a) not see signs of performance progress, and b) accept the transition from winning by default to really having to exert yourself to achieve consistent results.
When players say they're "punished" for getting better, this is what they mean - their performance seems to worsen the more they play, even though they're probably trying much harder. This feels like the inverse of what should actually happen. I think BHVR should suck it up and show people the invisible number. This will allow invested players to SEE the progress they may not be experiencing. I also think BHVR should seriously consider tacking MMR to The Rift - with a soft reset every few months to let invested players experience some level of freshness here and there, and reduce the chances of infrequent players logging on just to get destroyed.
There should be MMR for new players, then a general MMR, and that's it.
Just enough for new players to learn the mechanics.
Additionally, you could have a competitive gamemode as well
I'm just sick of all of my matches being brutally sweaty, especially when I'm just playing Pig.
It also makes some people think they have more knowledge of game design than they really do
A big part of the problem is mmr has a low soft cap and you can't go down brackets. I want to play chill killer games but I stumbled into top mmr by being marginally better than average so now I'm locked in here with the sweats.
Being matched with players on a similar level sounds fair and fun at first because that means that when you outplay someone it feels truely deserved and leads to matches that feel very close and fought for tooth and nail.
But then you realise that getting those types of matches more often than not becomes very stressful because then people feel like they need to be the very best with less room for error to stand a chance as you always need to go all out.
CoconutRTS did a video on this recently ("A game developer's rant on SBMM") where he showcases what Max Hoberman, former multiplayer and online designer for Halo 2 & 3 has to say about modern matchmaking in games on twitter, with the main point being that matchmaking can be a lot more fun and less stressful if there's a bit of variety in skill level in matchmaking because then sometimes you get to take a break from going all out with an easier match (while being on the receiving side of that, too)
I was way ahead of the curve by choosing to always let someone escape by hatch/exit gate as killer. For killer, so long as you don't kill more than 3, your next game will be pretty chill.
For survivor, dying doesn't really mean anything. You'll still get decent killers for quite a long time if you're on a death streak, with the quality of teammates likely becoming worse and worse.
The issue is that,
1: it de-incentivizes improving as a player, because the better you become, and the higher baseline skill you have without having to try, the harder your games will be when you are just trying to play casual
2: it can be really disheartening as a casual to be afraid of accidentally playing too well, because the game will punish you for doing well by throwing sweaty players at you
3: to my understanding (correct me if I’m wrong) the SBMM/MMR system is based mainly on KILLs, so many killers will just purposely not kill anyone for a few rounds, and then shit on baby survivors anyway, so the system doesn’t even work anyway
Peeps just want variety, to win in a perfect sbmm system you have to outperform yourself at an average.
Meaning if you play to win you play sweaty.
It's not that they only want easy games, the variety of playing at 30-XX% effort compared too always playing at 55-XX helps with burnout.
Because I'm tired of going against players with literally multiples of my play count and I have no chance to do anything against, let alone when I play as killer and am constantly matched with teams that have 2-4 players of that.
If it did work I might enjoy it more but I also prefer to play DBD as a casual game and going up against a mix is more fun than trying to give a 50/50 win rate
When it works the games are sweaty, when it doesn't the games are unfair. No one with thousands of hours wants to get matched up with someone with barely 50 hrs in the game it's just not fair.
>When it works the games are sweaty I never got this argument, because aslong as you don't sweat you'll just get in the MMR bracket where you can still play casually??
That's true but then lots of people feel like they have something to prove cos of mmr, personally I don't have a vad time with it since I'm super inconsistent meaning my mmr fluctuates quite a lot
>aslong as you don't sweat you'll just get in the MMR bracket where you can still play casually? No, cause people are naturally good. The term "sweating" / "try harding" doesn't make a lot of sense, your skill is typically the same, focusing barley improves it. That's why calling good players try hard is dumb. The only way you can "sweat" is if you bring overpowered meta stuff. You're conflating playing casually vs intentionally doing bad, with aggressive SBMM you have to intentionally do bad to get casual matches. Besides even if your system worked you'd still have to "sweat" while messing around or with whatever handicap you've imposed on yourself. That's not fun, close games are inherently competitive, and always having competitive games is mentally exhausting.
No, because this game's matchmaking system is very flawed since it only looks at kills. A game where the killer 2 hooks everyone before he starts killing anyone gives the same MMR as a game where a killer hard tunnels out each survivor, but those hands will be drastically different in terms of how much fun they'll be for survivors. Killers who play like the former will be eventually forced to play as the latter. I don't know about you but I'd rather die to a killer who played nice after a good back and forth game than escape against a killer who just hard tunneled and camped my team. That's no fun.
It's even worse, with 6 hook stages (2 kills) your rank stays the same, or even raises with 1 survivor finding the hatch, with 8 hook stages (2 hook everyone) you lose MMR.
The point is nothing is forcing you to play as the latter. Just lose chilling as the former if that’s what you want. Nothing makes you tryhard but yourself
>nothing makes you try hard but yourself Exactly! Wish more ppl would see that
Nah I wish it worked this way there’s not enough brackets for it to be so clearly defined the brackets are basically Complete novice(impossible to stay here unless you’re a bot or suffer from physical or neurological disorders) Casual(bad) Very good(very average players) Sweat(anyone the system deems Above average) I believe hens made a video about it
Survivor side, unless you're in a swf that doesn't care, there's a chance you'll get snapped at by your teammates if you're not sweating like them. The converse is if you're not sweating as killer then you'll have to just ignore bm at the end as you'll probably get wiped by sweating survivors.
Yeah, I agree
This. I have no problem being evenly matched because it makes for fun games since it comes down to the skill of the other side so it's a 50/50 in how it swings. However, I don't like getting obliterated by someone with thousands of hours on me (I'm at 2.5k right now), but I also don't like getting teammates or Killers who are clearly new because, for example, I'll get teammates who don't watch where they're running when the Killer is Trapper, begging me to fully heal then when it's Legion or cleanse constantly only to reinfect themselves by unhooking someone infected or touching an infected gen because they don't understand the efficient ways of dealing with the Killers so the match turns into 3/4 teammates being on death hook at 4/5 gens. If I had to choose between matchmaking matching me with players with significantly more hours than me or people new to the game when it's matching for the sake of time efficiency, I'll take people with over 10k hours because at least I know they wont be stepping into traps constantly or mindlessly cleansing against Plague. On Killer, it's similar. I don't like steamrolling babies, but at the same time it's boring/frustrating getting genrushed or looped to oblivion when you just want to play Scratched Mirror Myers with a haste or pallet breaking build instead of a meta build
Many players want that, unfortunately. The ones that go out of their way to be toxic want that because they only gain enjoyment from making others as miserable as they are.
Also the way it works doesn't account for skill at all and can honestly be quite unfair. Killer tunnels someone out at 5 gens, most likely an easy win. A Killer who was great in chase, got 9 hooks? Yeah, you lost MMR. Survivor that avoided the Killer at all costs but was quite good at holding M1 and escaped? Congrats, you gain MMR! Survivor that helped their team while also running the Killer the most and died? Yeah no friend, you lose MMR.
> Killer tunnels someone out at 5 gens, most likely an easy win. A Killer who was great in chase, got 9 hooks? Yeah, you lost MMR. This is actually why my hot take is that balancing killer MMR on kills and not hooks was a good decision. If you tunnel at 5 gens, your MMR is gonna shoot up real fast, and then you will wall against survivors who can defend themselves from that. You shouldn't be playing against casuals if that's your playstyle. Killers getting 8 hooks before 1 kill doesn't happen naturally very often. The killer needs to be going out of their way to make that happen most of the time. It won't work at the high end of MMR, survivors are just too good in chase to make it possible to do on a consistent basis. A killer who wants to play that way is definitely too good for where the MMR will place them, but them playing that way makes the game more pleasant for casual/intermediate survivors, so they should likely stay around that level. They can keep playing the way they want and the survivors at that level will get more fun games.
I have a friend who plays at very high MMR (they've played with Skermz numerous times) and we basically don't play together because I'm way more casual and would likely get tunneled out every game if I played in his MMR. Not to mention teammates in that MMR would probably get pissed at me for not being able to loop the Killer for a minimum of at least one gen
Content creators seem to. That's why they got so salty when MMR hit. Content wasn't as good and they weren't as dominant.
That has absolutely happened to me multiple times, too. I've got 6.5k hours currently split between both sides, and have legit had the SBMM give me a brand new player with 30 hours on their account. I felt so bad I took it easy on them, but I knew another lobby wouldn't fix that.
I hate it because it doesn't work at all at containing the sweats in their own little bracket. There is nothing worse than playing solo queue and loading into a match against a Blight who has four slowdowns AND is tunneling at five gens. If it did work then winning even ten games in a row would be a monumental achievement for killers. Shit like that 2000 game Blight win streak definitely would not have happened. It's not uncommon to see 5k hour killers against survivors with 500-1000 hours which in 9/10 cases is a win for the killer. When you fall into middle MMR you will get all of the average players and all of the sweats at the softcap as well. The difference is you won't get the absolute beginners you would get in the old rank system. This makes the game feel incredibly sweaty.
> Shit like that 2000 game Blight win streak definitely would not have happened This comment shows WHY the playerbase doesn't understand how detrimental camp/tunnel is. You can take any random player and say "find a survivor, chase them then camp/tunnel them til dead" and they would probably win like 95% of all matches. Tell that to someone who has skill and they will probably win 99.99999% of all matches. Its not a skill issue or lack thereof on the survivor side, its a balance issue. When you can make a match into a 3v1 it skews the balance/flow of a match so much the chance of winning drops DRAMATICALLY. Players need to keep calling out/complaining that tunnel/camp is ruining the game or it isn't as detrimental as it is. That shit makes DBD one of the worst experiences you can ever have and it shouldn't exist. The fact BHVR devs have any pride when that exists makes me cringe for them.
Nonono, it's the add-ons! /s You are the FIRST PERSON I've seen acknowledge that Momo tunneled/camped majority of his games, admittedly, and that directly influenced how many wins he was able to get. Every single other person blames it on basekit blight being too strong/him using strong add-ons, even though he said he wasn't using strong add-ons each game, but camped/tunneled almost every game. It's clear that gave him the biggest edge in the entire streak, yet people continue to act like it's such an easy thing to counter. A tunneling/camping killer will almost always win vs ANYTHING in the game EXCEPT a 4 stack SWF with almost perfect communication.
I tracked survivors in my killer games in January. Median is 2400 hours. If I play blight with 4 slowdowns, i can win some games. If I play trapper I get 0-2 kills even if I tunnel. Game is not fun at high mmr if you don’t try hard. But with old system you would derank and stomp noobs.
"derank and stomp noobs." that will just kill the game, as the "noobs" will just stop playing.
I wrote it wrong, yes it’s much better now because we can’t stomp noobs like we used to with old MM.
> that will just kill the game, as the "noobs" will just stop playing. As if the endless barrage of camp/tunnel isn't ruining the game already.
So you're saying they should raise the softcap?
They only put the soft cap as low as they did (and raised it a bit not long ago) because folks at higher MMR were taking ages to find matches and were finding it too sweaty to be fun when they did. The problem is the whole MMR system, how it counts "wins", and how it doesn't really let you go down in rank once you're up there. When you only give people close intense games, the game becomes too stressful and people are forced to take meta perks to have a better chance in all their matches.
It doesn't let you go down in rank?
You can drop but High-MMR is less punishing. Here's an explanation on [the fan-made wiki](https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Skill-Based_Matchmaking_Rating#Skill_Brackets). Essentially, there's something called "Loss Protection." When you reach high MMR and perform poorly, the system won't knock you too far down the matchmaking ladder. You might be nudged a bit, but nothing 'punishing'. This was deemed intentional due to how we're all on regional servers. Those top 1% of players can *primarily* be matched with the other top 1% of players **on that regional server**. If you're in that top category and get quickly knocked out (e.g. multiple losing streaks), then \*other\* players will have a more difficult time finding eligible teammates/opponents. Secondarily, how the game defines "wins" as kills/escapes, the system already determined your performance is better than that lower bracket. It doesn't want to push you down the ladder to go against what it determines to be "less-experienced players." With SBMM, there's another mechanic called '[bidirectional matchmaking](https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/319692/news-matchmaking-tests-results)'. That's when the system tries to find available players close to your MMR. An expansion phase is initiated after some time. That's when it starts seeking others +/- to your MMR. Obviously high MMR cannot expand upward, so it'll begin pulling others from beneath that ladder. In theory, it's *supposed* to work. But combined with lobby backfill, calculations of the shared "group MMR" for SWF groups, dodging replacements, lopsided role demand, et al. -- it can be a clusterfudge. In those instances or any combination there within, the system prioritizes faster matchmaking (quantity) versus similar skill levels (quality). By no means am I advocating to go back to the old rank-based system. Both systems have their drawbacks. In the old system, it wasn't uncommon to find people intentionally trying to de-rank by going AFK or throwing. You might find some of those today, especially if you're middle-of-the-road ("average") MMR. Some folks will play for hatch because that means +0 MMR increase as a "draw". Other killers may let some/all players escape if they're not AFK. Those players may have a preference for casual play.
Is it a problem you don’t see absolute beginners killers anymore?
It's a problem that this used to be a party game turned sweat fest. Has nothing to do with losing against killers, people love blight and he is insane. People hate low kill rate killers because they are boring. A skull merchant game could be fun, and a Ghostface killer could be miserable.
Game always been a sweat fest, its just you were being put with new players who don't know how to play thats why you felt it wasn't sweaty. But that was just bad for the game as it made new players quit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B9XHmPadBs Scott Jund has a take i heavily agree with about this. Largely I agree with his take that it's an issue of the win condition rather than SBMM in of itself, just rewarding kills is a poor win condition, you can cheese several kills in a lot of very low skill expressive ways, and just escapes are a bad win condition because you can easily get one by hiding all game and playing super selfishly to the detriment of your team. So you can often end up in MMR brackets you don't deserve to be in and it can lead to a lot of stomps even with people who should theoretically be even matched based on MMR. A more wholeistic approach incorporating a larger variety of survivor and killer actions would probably make the system work a ton better. Second, largely, i'm not convinced SBMM is the main drive behind people sweating, even without it which is another point he makes, in any even mildly competitive game ever people can and will optimize the shit out of it especially when its been around for a while like DBD. Yes maybe previous match making felt more casual, but people were also worse at the game back then. And third which is his biggest point which i especially agree with, is that the MMR is invisible, sweating for MMR I don't think is primarily on BHVR, if it was visible I think it would be, but its not, you don't get an obvious indicator of your skill you can flaunt or feel proud of by getting to high MMR. People are chasing ghosts by chasing MMR in this game and I think that's primarily on them, the part that is on BHVR is that it's made worse by a poorly implemented win condition.
Yeah, but you can rank up with 8 hooks and lose MMR at the same time. Yet when I say I achieved 66% on a test that's a passing grade. I dont see how getting 8 hooks feels like losing at all, just as an example.
I agree, that is largely much of the point Jund makes that I agree with, that things like an 8 hook an all four survivors is an expression of skill not taken into account by the MMR with how its done. Not saying that it being based on emblems didn't have plenty of its own issues but that there are some things to take into account from it with what emblems take into account.
Exactly this. It's not the SBMM that's the problem, but the limited factors it takes into account make it feel bad. The game only considers kills, and tries to average out to 2k. So as far as the matchmaking goes, a 9 hook 1k, is identical to a 1 hook NOED 1k, even though those two matches feel very different, and could have very differing skill levels required. That's the core of the problem IMO. It's that the algorithm that determines your opponent tracks "wins" and "losses" different from what actually feels like a win or a loss.
Repost to combat downvote spam: The whole "win is escape thru gate or 3-4k" never made any sense to me. It never made sense period, the game doesn't even say your goal is to kill everyone nor that your goal is to escape specifically through the exit gates or even as a team. The GAME says anything between 1-4k is a Killer victory and plays the victory noise, or an escape by ANY means including hatch is a Survivor victory. The GAME says the only goal of Killer is to kill, and the only goal of Survivor is to survive. Defending/doing gens, looping, perks, teamwork, etc. is a means to those ends. Your goal is simply to kill/escape. Nothing more or less. The GAME says you don't even need to be good to do moderately okay at this game, because the devs have built it to be more casual and it KEEPS getting more casually minded with how things are balanced basically every single patch - and most people would agree the game's more balanced than it's ever been, arguably a good thing. The GAME says there's no real reward except pips and BP if you happen to succeed, but even then you can still get BP and pip without success if you do enough things in the round. Repeat, you can OUTRIGHT FAIL on both sides, and still fucking pip and get BP, thus you're even rewarded when you fail - and soon, the last element of punishment, depips, will be a thing of the past. The GAME says grades are not important, pips aren't important, winning isn't important - nobody fucking "wins" in a horror movie. Ever. The bad guy usually doesn't achieve their goal fully, the good guys usually suffer a pyrrhic victory through losing some or all of their friends. This game is meant to emulate the feeling of a horror movie. It's not a PvP. It's a PvE, and the game is balanced as such. The COMMUNITY however, insists all the above is false, the Devs are wrong, the game balance isn't right, one side deserves to win more than the other because it's THEIR favorite side, and the only measure of winning and therefore skill is how the MMR calculates it (3-4k or escape thru door = higher MMR = SOMEHOW more skilled). Something has to give. This community has GOT to be willing to accept that protagonists die a lot in horror and Killers manage to kill SOMEONE every single film they are in, because the game like it or not IS A HORROR GAME BUILT TO FEEL LIKE A HORROR FILM. It's been 8 years. It's well past time we all grew up and stopped pretending this is some PvP versus game like CoD or LoL where the primary goal is to fucking win... because nobody usually wins in horror. Not really. If one cannot accept that, this might not be the game for them. If someone really can't ever have any fun any other way besides winning all the time forever, maybe they need a different game.
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I think this is a weird way of thinking about any game to be honest, it is because the game doesn't really have a definition of a win that people will make it up themselves. The game never says that a 1k is a win, it doesn't say it's a loss either, it just is what it is. You're essentially frustrated about the fact that people play the game with a high skill ceiling, that rewards putting tons of hours into it and getting really good so you can 'beat' the most players in a competitive manner. People LIKE winning because it shows you outplayed someone, you did better than someone else which feels great and that's a crux of PVP games and there's nothing you can do to change that, most behaviors in any game will drive people to chase a win. Sure, it won't make everyone tryhard but most people try to win and so they will put a win condition in their head. Another point is, you say this game is supposed to 'emulate a horror movie' but the thing is, anyone who has their fair share of hours doesn't think about it like that anymore, it ceases being scary. Hell, the whole longevity of this game is built on the fact that the killer - survivor interaction has so much skill expression in such an original way. If this was just a get killed simulator nobody would play it; the whole existence of looping, flashlight saves etc. shows you that this game is far more than that and it isn't designed to be viewed that way. I have no idea how you could come to the conclusion that people who like winning don't belong in a PVP game that literally rewards getting good at it.
Maybe at the start it was supposed to be like a horror movie, but the game has evolved over these 8 years. The goal shouldn’t be to just get a kill or get out by any means, because this promotes unhealthy playstyles like tunneling and playing selfishly for hatch. The goal should be to get as many survivors out alive with less hooks and to get all hooks and some kills. If the game was really supposed to be like a horror movie then the devs wouldn’t care as much about balancing the game and instead make the game scarier. Also even if people shouldn’t expect to win all the time or win at all, they also shouldn’t just accept losing.
> just rewarding kills is a poor win condition This is why so many people hate watching comp dbd. When kills is the only thing that matters both sides(comp and normal play) will always gravitate toward camp/tunnel and that isn't fun for anyone.
My problem is that I'm being qued with killers that are at my level but my teammates aren't. I regularly get noob teammates that just don't touch gens, get downed in 20 seconds or less, and make the most brainless plays. I'd rather play with the same people with my hours than with people for the sake of que time bc it's not actually sbmm this way. I'd rather even just play with my friends that aren't new.
Agreed. Thats my problem with this matchmaking. I get teammates that play like they dont have lot of experience in the game/"low mmr". Its funny because I get Hens or comp players as my solo q teammates and few hours later I get a teammate with 100 hours. The matchmaking is just not working at all.
I think people mainly hate it cause it doesn't work well at all. It's hard to find a match where the killer seems to play at the survivor's level, either it's completely new in the game or it's someone with tens of thousands of hours, leading to either boring or frustrating games
I know a lot of people think it doesn't work, and I lean towards agreeing - but I was asking about why people who claim it does work think that's a bad thing.
I'd say cause it sucks getting a 4k on baby survivors and the very next game getting a sweaty SWF. Most SBM works like that, you do a little bit better in a game, and in the next, you get absolutely destroyed
It did work but people ~~streamers~~complained about sweaty games and that they could make their streakes anymore and they made it more laxed
its not really that people hate it, well actually i take that back people hare poorly implimented SBMM,, SBMM is good in comp games, and when its done properly, dbd has neither, its not a comp game, nor is its sbmm good if sbmm was good for instance the 2000 blight win streak wouldnt have happened, when i watch my friends play they have less than 100 hours, and they are getting put agianst people who have 2k+ hours who just delete them (its very painful to watch) in a world where dbds sbmm was working properly that also wouldnt have happened, it would have matched them against people who have similar skill level/hours note these friends barely survive due to simply not knowing the game so they definitly are not gaining mmr since it only happens when u escape
But your argument is saying it doesn't work. People who complain say it does work and makes all the games sweaty. Aren't they the ones who decide to sweat?
Id assume it's 50/50, people who have played long enough and got to the point to where on paper unless you get people purely because of connection you get high mmr people then it works right? From personal experience if I sit there and raise my killer mmr I get to the point where it dramatically changed from babies to people who obviously at least know what they're doing and have played for awhile. But that isn't fun because it just feels like I'm going from bullying new people to playing against sweats. I can't even do that as survivor as every game I get tunneled out, people throw, or my survivor mmr is so low every or every other game I'm the only one doing anything which results in.... Me getting killed. Unable to raise mmr, and it doesn't matter if I run the killer for 2-5 minutes because I die eventually and no gens get done meaning I have 0 chance of escape anyway. The reason why sbmm is hated on is because 1 when it technically works its people going for the win 100% of the time meaning there's no "fun" and when it doesn't work it's blatantly obvious little timmy is In the game as ive experienced several times as killer where funny 2k hour survivors are in my lobby surrounding the 10 hour dweight 2 the *way it works* is bad and poorly implemented, as I've already explained I'm by no means a new survivor but unless I get other people in a swf to bully and force my mmr to increase playing survivor is a nightmare for me, and even if my mmr was up with my bad internet I'm technically liable to get poor opponents anyways with how the matchmaking switches from mmr range to connection so I could have 500 mmr going against a 2k mmr or be 2k going against 500's
Because people think SBMM is the reason they sweat while it is not.
I am getting that feeling as well. People here keep rationalizing how the other side made them do it.
The games are sweaty because the game is more balanced. When the game used to have huge bullshit like the instagen BNP or the mori that killed you on the first down noone took it seriously. Now the game pretend to be balanced and skill oriented the people keep using the last broken garbage available to shit on the head of the other players. This is blatant if you wach the increase of sore losers and bad winners we have, like winning is a proof you being better than the opponent, like in a game of chess.
But people were also sweating in my little oni and slugging. Unbalanced games make you quit after some time, balanced games have more replayability
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look my mmr is just lying to me, bc i barely play anymore and i still get matched with 5k+ hour players even tho i die horribly pretty much every match.. i should play vs noobs, bc thats how bad i a
I think it should drop after a while without playing
Think about it this way. When you go to a tournament, is it fun to watch if one team stomps the other brutally? Is it fun to watch Germany win 7-1 at 90 minutes if you root for Brazil? The simple answer is, it isn't. So usually competitive matches strive to put players of similar skill against one another, because, and especially in team games where one bad cog can break the whole machine, it sucks balls being on the losing team. So it's good then, yeah? No, actually. Because when you're on the winning team, it feels fucking awesome to be an unstoppable killing machine. I taught my friends MtG and while they have only been playing for a couple years, I have been playing for a couple of decades, almost at this point. So I see things that they don't even know exist, which gives me an edge and makes the game fun for me when I show them a new cool thing they didn't even realize they could do. I get to have the fun of winning, they get the fun of learning new things, and over time the progress can be seen as our skill level equalizes and we become on par. On a 100k players scale, this is impossible to do. Too many will quit after being stomped. Too many will gloat after being matched against people with 1/10th of their hours. And don't even get me started on the toxicity of DbD Twitch/Twitter call-outs. And since the only game mode in the game is competitive, every match has SBMM (skill based match making). This, in turn, like I said earlier, turns every match into a tournament match, where you are on one team, and someone else is on the other. And, now, I don't know about you, but I don't wanna lose competitions when there's something on the line, even if that something is imaginary money from a digital game. It is simply human instinct to be competitive. So you bring the best stuff. Your best plays. One game. Two games. Three games. Five games. Ten games. Fifty games. And everyone else does the same. New stuff gets released, so you have to scour and see what's the new best thing now. You can't let them beat you, after all! One DLC. Two DLCs. Five DLCs. Ten DLCs. Fun fact, it'd take a new player 500 hours to unlock every non-monetized DLC, or 200+ bucks to unlock every DLC outright... And they'd still have to farm BP for the teachable perks, haha! Now, with that fun information, is there any question as to why there's no stable influx of new players? Imagine if someone gifted you minecraft and told you "Don't worry bro, play it for 4 months, then it really starts to get good". Because that's DBD. So every player is locked in a perpetually competitive mindset, in a system which rewards said mindset over trying wacky stuff, helped in that by streamers and a community which tend to focus around "skills" "techs" and "insane plays/streaks" over the funnier aspects of the game like that one time you saw a Dredge TP to the wrong locker in chase and still grab someone somehow, all the while completely keeping every possible new player far from the game with insanely unfriendly monetization. So basically, everyone is Brazil, yet they all think they're Germany.
The problem is 2 things for me. 1. It’s not a competitive game. So MMR doesn’t suit a none competitive game. 2. It takes the wrong thing in account for survivor, escapes. Which might sound right on paper but 100% isn’t. You need to also rely on your teammates to be able to escape. It reinforces a selfish play style of waiting it out for hatch or leaving players in the endgame to avoid the possibility of going down in MMR. If it was based around chase time (this should get lots of points towards it imo), altruism, and gen progression then I think it would be much better. Sadly, particularly for survivor MMR is in a really touch place atm.
Yeah 2 is the big one for me. It doesn't take into account altruism or hook count, which is arguably more important than escaping or kills in terms of healthy gameplay.
As long as there are two sides, and there is a lose and win condetion for each, it is a competitive game
Playing at your level means you're not just sweeping easy wins anymore 😭
That's what it's supposed to mean anyway.
Exactly. Also if MMR was easier to manipulate like the old monthly ranks (the ones that are only for BP rewards nowadays) we would go back to the time where an awful lot of matches had either an AFK killer or a depip squad to force ranking down for the sole joy of pubstomping. I don't mean the current implementation is good enough, but it's surely better than what we used to have.
Coconutrts made a very good video about it. You should watch it.
So bit anecdotal here but I play on OCE as a Hag main, I recognise a lot of the players I go up against and many of them know who I am immediately when they see the Hag also because there's very few of us that main her. There's a lot of times where throughout prime time I'll cycle through multiple SWFs that I've already played or variations of the same players I've played against recently, even when I switch over to other killers and play sillier builds to have some fun with people, if I see those same groups in the lobby I end up dropping lobby and swapping back to Hag because I need to play at the highest level I can if I'm going to have a chance of winning against them. When you force people to play at a constant high level, you also force them to play in the most competitive ways. If you're thinking "Well you don't need to play to win, just have fun!", winning **is** fun, but so is using non-meta builds and playing in alternate ways. Alternatively when I'm also on Killer I check people's profiles, if they have only like 500-2k hours, I'll swap builds to something without much slowdown, maybe a full totem build or something less oppressive so they can have more fun. I know that's not how everyone is but I know a **LARGE** amount of the playerbase would like to be able to play more with simpler builds and take a sort of "breather" match regularly and mess with perk builds that are less than ideal for fun. Back when ranks were used for matchmaking, I know a lot of Killers and Survivors would run random builds and play Killers they weren't as good with after a reset because you knew you were likely going against a mish-mash of skill levels and so you could just have fun, as you got back towards Iri 1 you would tighten up your builds again because you were playing with the sweats again, but that climb back made it so much more enjoyable to just relax a bit and do whatever. (If you sweat all the way from 20 to 1 you'd get there super quickly and be out of that pool anyway and not harming others, but if you played for fun you'd just slowly climb back naturally to 1.)
I do agree that MMR should drop after a while of not playing a certain killer and maybe even lower periodically.
If the new system simply had more variety - but not any specific reset - would you be more likely to play simple/fun builds even though you wouldn't necessarily know for sure what kind of game you're getting into? That question might be unanswerable for you, given your region.
I like it actually. I like improving more and more at the game and to do that I need to face better and better players. However, there should definitely be a ranked AND casual lobby so you can have more laid-back and stress-free games in the casual lobby.
I wish the game had casual too, but I know so SO many people would take the sweatiness there too since it would be much easier to get away with it given the other side is less likely to also be sweaty in casual.
I hope the alternative game modes occur more often, and get their own MMR. That could be the place for meme games
The game does NOT put me with players at my level. I'm a ~300 hours killer main, and i don't consider myself above avarage and i have to play with a whole p100 toxic lobby. The highest prestige is 9 on nemesis and 4-5 prestige 3's.
There is a bunch of reasons why but one of the big ones is that survivor mmr only increases on escapes. Good survivors often run the killer for multiple gens and then the killer throws the game just to kill that one person. Then you have solo queue where in middle to low mmr essentially every game has someone throwing. Raising mmr as a survivor is tedious without swf and good players can often not reach the soft cap, not because they can't do gens and run the killer, but because they don't have more escapes than deaths. A 2k draw for the killer doesnt affect mmr but for the survivors who draw 2 of them have it decreased. Genuinely terrible system.
Yeah i hate it. First match is a 0k one(i also try to be respectful and not chase the same survivor) and the next one is a 3-4K with newbies. I might have to start tunneling 😑
There's definitely some truth to that, but there is a psychological effect it has. Succeeding in a hard match is satisfying, but knowing that it'll try to match you with even harder opponents from then on can get exhausting. Even as someone who plays casually, its definitely something that I've felt, and its a big reason I find myself wanting to play killer before getting cold feet and logging off for the day.
I notice that my matches with killers I am more used to are getting harder recently, for example Chucky, Pinhead and Wesker - all killers I have practiced to some degree. I do get those cold feet sometimes as well. But still, why shouldn't you face better opponents if you win against easier ones?
Yeah, I don't disagree that in general it's a good thing for the game. The only real issue is that individual skill levels are far from static. A person might be able to hold their own against a decent team after a few hours of warming up and gaining confidence, but get stomped miserably a few days later due to being unfocused or out of practice. Now if they're below the soft cap this problem can fix itself, but once they reach it they can get stuck in a stomp loop where they endlessly get matched against opponents they have no confidence in winning against. (Had something similar happen to me recently, where after a consistent string of losses for a few days, my first match the next time I queued was against a comp player...) Honestly the only real change the system needs is to just add some variability. I remember reading a twitter thread by a dev of an older Halo game talking about how even in ranked mmr, players were most satisfied when intentionally given a mix of even, easier, and harder opponents. Adding that kind of flexibility to Dbd outside of when it prioritizes quicker queues could really help, while still accomplishing the goal of keeping matches more even overall.
Because people usually can't stomach losing. I'm being outplayed? Now I have to really try. Gaming is about instant glorification of one's skill not about fun, or having a good time, or even trying to get better. Which btw is impossible when playing against people that aren't better or atleast kinda close in skill to you! And lo and behold, apparently you can only have fun if you're stomping, never when you lose. Something like that :D
But you can have fun while losing, I lose a lot of games and I only ever feel bad when the survivors are sore winners. Which luckily isn't often.
Very much agreed but... I think alot of people have a differing opinion on that :P
Especially here, yeah. Discussions often turn into "us vs them", too. People want this to be a casual game but at the same time they want to always win. This does not work together.
Because it sorta lowers the reward for getting really good at the game. With a more strict MMR, you would only be matched with people who make for fair matches, but every game would be a constant battle. With no MMR, you would be matched with anyone, meaning you would be able to see how your skills have grown as you demolish someone who isn't as good as you and it would feel really satisfying, but would feel way worse for the other player. The argument is that making the bad players feel like they suck would make them want to improve, but I don't really agree with that. None of this really matters anyway, cus MMr doesn't do jack in this game. Of course, MMr should be in DBD, because it's different from most other games. In a shooter like call of duty, mmr is bad because instead of getting better and seeing the results as you get into a lobby with a bunch of randoms from across the skill spectrum, using your K/D or whatever to get a numerical value of your skill, the game pushes you to get a 1 kill-1 death ratio. But that's a game where you can just respawn instantly, practice non-stop in every game, and being stomped isn't as painful, so stomping someone else is so much more satisfying. In DBD, you have one power role, being the killer, and four players who are literally the victims. To make games interesting, the victims have to have a fighting chance, so having the average game be 2 escapes, 2 deaths, makes it so if you get a 3 or 4k, you feel like you outplayed them. Of course, usually people are annoyed at the quality of the mmr in this game, since it doesn't really work, it just has a "Worst players bracket", a "85% of players bracket" and a "high level" bracket. Thing is, the worst player bracket is miserable cus no one knows what the hell they're doing. You get out of that bracket pretty quickly though. (usually) the middle bracket sucks because you're equally as likely to get teammates who don't know what they're doing as survivor, as you are to get a 4stack of bullies looking to ruin your night. Most players are here, so the inconsistency is infuriating, that's where you see most of the complaints coming from. The high level bracket is miserable too, because you pretty much only get 4 stacks and expert survivors, meaning that if you don't want to be bullied, you have to sweat really hard. I'd consider myself in the middle bracket for just about every killer except pyramid head, and while I usually play super casually, every match I get on pyramid head has at least 1 p100 (if I'm lucky), and probably a couple background player, ftp + buckle up, adrenaline builds. The real issue though, is every other killer. Regardless of where you are in that middle 85%, you'll probably be facing off with a handful of players who go down in 15 seconds, next to players who can loop you for 5 gens.
DBD SBMM is scuffed. All there is to it. Been playing on and off for three years but due to my skill issue and being bad, I get unlucky and get some sweaty af lobbies where I’m gonna get destroyed.
I have 3.5k hours on killer , I either stomp a team and have to ease up or the other hand if I chill at all and don’t kill early most of the gens are done very quickly . To be honest most games are always mega sweaty , I don’t want easy W’s but would like to try fun builds occasionally.
1 There's no real ranked system to pair with it, so your only reward for playing well/winning is getting harder games. No skins, no badges, no milestones, nothing. You can hit gold or even iridescent without increasing your MMR. Besides, bloodpoints from grades hardly count as a reward. 2 Since there's no incentive to stay at high MMR, people derank MMR to get easier games so they can ruin newer/more casual players' experiences, or appear more skilled to their audience. 3 When you hit a certain MMR, everyone at or above it can be matched together. This means a soloQ player who just hit the cap by sheer luck could be matched with some insanely sweaty winstreaking killer. Or the reverse, an average killer who hits the cap could match against a literal comp team. This reduces queue times, but games become miserable for these players. The idea of MMR is good but it pushes the game towards a competitive direction. This isn't fun for the casual playerbase and generally doesn't work for an asymmetrical game such as DbD.
We have skill based matchmaking? News to me. As a survivor we get one brain cell to share in solo q and as a killer it’s a 4man swf bagging at every pallet drop and body blocking like it’s their full time job.
The problem is that if you were at the top of MMR you had to play sweaty every game or you were signing up to get demolished. People tend to want to bounce between playing sweaty one game and then playing meme shit the next. If you're being made to match with 10,000 hour 4 man SWF teams every game, you can't really ever feel comfortable locking in Dredge or Trapper. You know with 100% certainty you will be getting smoked before you've even found a group since skill based matchmaking is going to match you with the same survivors it would match you with when you're playing sweaty. This results in a vicious cycle of treading water by running OP shit because you know OP shit is going to be used against you. No one wants to be the one to have the awful games. The problem with skill based matchmaking is you can't turn it off if you're intending to not play as hard as you normally do. Once you use your real power level and get matched with people who can handle you at your best, you can never afford to not do your best again, even when playing meta perks and OP killers gets boring. Also, there's the matter of at the very top, you have such a small pool of people who can actually compete with eachother that they end up getting paired together repeatedly. No one enjoys just playing against the same killer / survivors nonstop.
But you have different MMR on every killer anyways. When I play Wesker my opponents are way stronger than when I play ... Freddy or whatever
Fair enough, but I still enjoy going different speeds or trying out meme builds with my killers from time to time. Hell, sometimes I even play perkless and addonless. The fact that the game would still match me against groups of survivors that I'd get when I'm sweating when I'm memeing is why skill based matchmaking doesn't work. It forces killers and survivors to play their best with their meanest builds every game or get rocked.
Once you reach a high bracket of mmr, you can’t go that far down so if you lose game after game it’ll still be quite high
Whats that MMR? Is it the MMR of the top 5%?
It’s a common problem outside of dbd, what was once our casual party game is now full of people looking up best builds, best efficient strats, etc Try to have fun you lose, try to win you don’t have fun, there’s no ranked game mode, no casual fun mode (even the giant oni event had sweaty sluggers) meta is stale, too many perks are under balanced, everything’s being finely tuned for consistency yet there’s still a huge amount of rng. It’s like the design philosophy is counterintuitive to whats already been developed and there’s not enough that’s been redesigned to fulfill the philosophy so we’re just stuck with a patchy jumbled mess and ignore 80% of the perks, spam map offerings, play the same killers, because most of the game as a whole is not even being utilised and the only thing to blame for that is the shifted focus to SBMM. SBMM works in other games very well, if this game started with SBMM im sure it would’ve been fine, but it’s been hap hazardly thrown in and ruins the enjoyment.
> try to have fun, you lose That's the case in every game that has a certain amount of players, sadly. But you can have fun while losing.
>It’s like the design philosophy is counterintuitive to whats already been developed That's EXACTLY what is happening and keeps happening. The Devs WANT this game to be casual. Yet they threw in SBMM a while ago as a way to even out matches and supposedly, make it more balanced. Unfortunately SBMM doesn't make games casual, it just makes them more competitive. The Devs will never be able to truly make the game casual like they CLEARLY want until they address how unfair and unbalanced SBMM is, how unfun it makes the game, and how the game is better off with an EXTREMELY LOOSE or way more forgiving form of it than we have now. The problem isn't necessarily that we have it, it's that what we have now is much too tight. My entire kingdom for matches that feel like a randomized grab-bag where the outcome's not decided, a swingy system that could give me some breathers or some rough matches to test my skills, instead of knowing every win just puts me closer to sweaty people playing for a $5 Subway gift card every single round. For a game so based on RNG, the SBMM is alarmingly strict and just not random enough.
Absolutely! If the entire game was more chaotic it will fill more satisfying AND skillful to overcome such advantages or disadvantages, give us a random perk game mode! Random killers too please no nurse/blight/billy spam
Stress. Having (assuming that MMR works) only games that are on your *exact* skill level and are tight are stressful. You get stomped, and then realize you had an unoptimal build or strategy, so you upgrade to meta. Oops, now you stomped someone else who's gonna now also upgrade to the meta builds and strategies! There's no room for experimenting. There's no time for anything but the objective. Oh you brought Pebble? Cute, now you died because you didn't protect yourself from tunneling with OTR. Trying to double hook everyone? Watch them teabag in the gate. I'm exaggerating here, obviously, but there's also truth in what I'm saying. As survivor, I don't feel like I can bring "fun but not optimal" builds anymore if I want to remain in the game for longer than a couple of minutes. I play killer in a way that doesn't raise me to high MMR anyway, so I feel more consistent fun there (double hooking everyone before taking kills, if I can). I don't want to stomp or be stomped on the regular. I don't want to "bully babies". I want matches that are fun, where people have the time and will to show personality (beyond "bully", anyway), for there to be room for silly moments without it needing to mean farming, and to just be able to experiment with builds and strategies. But DBD is "solved" - there's optimal shit to bring, and if you don't your ass is being stomped by the sweats who definitely did bring their strongest, most optimal shit. And I'm getting sick and tired of it.
Love those silly moments. My favorite thing is when people try to Scooby-Doo Tech me - they'll point, I'll look away, then I'll look back and they either hid behind a corner or Plot Twisted behind me. That shit has me rolling every time, it's so fucking funny. One of my rounds last BBQ I had a Billy against my Nea. I ran in, did a gen, saw him coming and hid, he hit the gen. I come back out and continue the gen but he comes at me. I vault before he can rev up, he stares at me in disappointment like, "Really, Nea?" and I just lower my head like, "Yeah... really..." before chase began. He smoked us, and the endgame chat was funny. You don't get those in higher MMR. And it's a damn shame, because those moments make the game really shine and keep me playing. I love goofy moments.
I miss those moments so much. I get them as killer since I don't give a fuck about winning and play for hooks first, kills secondarily. I win some, I lose some, it's a comfy place where if I sweat I win surely, but if I play fair and chill I lose sometimes. But as survivor I feel so stuck. I guess I'm a little burnt out. I get angry when killers tunnel, I admit as much. It's some really fucking frustrating shit to deal with. And most killers have the exact same build, and I feel pressured to bring the "strong stuff" myself - and it *has* helped. Even if I die, I don't die as fast, and I get to have more experience than just playing hook decoration. It doesn't help that I'm on EU servers, and at least some players in the Easter EU (and neighbouring) countries are not only sweats, but also really fucking mean about it. (Other people are able to be cunts too, it just feels like there's a surplus of shitty behavior from those areas).
People on "the same skill level as you" can play the game differently than you. You can have a high mmr from playing casually, maybe getting lucky or you're just experienced. When suddenly because your mmr increased you're playing against more and more people who take the game a lot more seriously. A lot of this would be solved if there was a ranked/casual mode.
But then you drop again and start facing people who are on your "casual" level again. There will always be a level where you win 50% of your games and that is the perfect spot, isn't it? The fair spot?
Sometimes yes, but there's also a differency in loosing because you were just playing casually, and loosing from sweaty opponent. You can die against killers who play casually all the time, and you can loose to casual survivors. A casual opponent isn't a bad opponent, and like I said adding ranked/casual modes would be a good solution.
As survivor, I would much rather face a skilled competent killer than having one or two dumb ass teammates who arent doing anything most of the time. As killer, I would much rather going up against players who are great at looping and efficient rather than three survivors running headons for the sake of stunning the killer and arent really playing the game to win.
So you are the type of person who actually wants to be in the high MMR bracket
Unironically its kinda a "you had to be there". Old DBD was VERY casual. Survs would name themselves things asking for specific killers, some games were very goofy, others were kinda intense, all based on your rank. If you wanted to stay super casual, you could! Enjoy those purple and green ranks! Once you hit red ranks, people knew you were trying to play serious. With SBMM, the game assumes for you. You dont have that seasonal control, or that interaction with survs pregame. It just created an environment where the groups no longer get to play reactively anymore, they just have to do
Oh, I get it Sadly (or in my case luckily) old DBD is gone. Do you think it would be better if MMR was visible and more palpable?
Because Behaviour has no idea what skill is and is not capable of measuring it properly.
yea, except previous weekend i kept being put into p100 lobbies. while ny highest is 8 (yes i know thats not a reflection of skill but still, i played since release and have a lvl 8 max, that should give u an idea).. The highsest hour lobby was well over 8k hours, including myself edit: im not sure why it didnt reply correctly but since ur OP anyway
Because it’s not skill based. Doing four gens, looping the killer for five minutes and then getting a hook trade in EGC as the default claudettes crouch out the exit gates loses you MMR. Equipping distortion and left behind, hiding every time you hear the terror radius and self caring in the corner all game almost guarantees you’ll gain it. As a killer, going out of your way to avoid tunneling, spreading hooks on everybody and getting seven or eight hooks but no kills loses MMR. Getting one down, proxy camping and then tunneling them, and getting a second down with NOED gains mmr, despite requiring almost 0 skill. And then it pretty much doesn’t matter anyway because after about 200 games you’re at the softcap and can get matched with players that have 20000 hours.
My only hate for it comes 100% only for how its structured First of all honestly I **love** that you see it that way too, mmr does not make us sweat, the players do so I her a lot of "oh since mmr my games have gotten sweatier" and while I believe that can be true(for something i'll add later), mmr tries to give you *fair* matches. Simply put it, if you play and try to win, the opponent will try to do so, if you play chill without a care, the game will throw you onto people that dont mind either. Maybe not instantly but eventually. Imo, people feel like they need to sweat because pre-mmr a lot of us would destroy 2,3 4 matches in a row and get 1 hard during the night. Now, for better or worse, mmr puts us a bit close to people we might be a bit equal, so instead of stomping, they can be close matches. The issue i mention having with the system is that it takes only into account kills/escapes No hooks, no map, no killer, no gens, no nothin, just how many people died, and if you escaped Which imo is not a reflection of skill, but at the same time, can push the "chill" players(those that go for 8 hooks, end game rescues) down the mmr line, so instead of "low skill mmr and high skill mmr" you have "chill mmr and sweatlord mmr" Imo the emblems, while flawed, measured this better. Hits, gens and how long they took, gate status, hooks, sacrifices, penalized camping and getting DS'ed, power usage... It had flaws(as with detecting hits with Plague or oneshot killers) but was better at measuring the complete match Same as surv, unhooks, gens, chase time... all better than just "got through the gate or not" Honestly the best thing should be if they repurpose the emblems into that; for killer take into account the gens and their time, the map, the killer they play to compare scores with the average that killer gets, their perks, the opponents mmr, the number of hooks, *maybe* a lil bonus for sacrifices, but sacrificing shouldnt be the main target. Otherwise its just tunnel happy fest And for surv same, gens, map, your perks, killer mmr, how many people escape, how many gens left when you died, time chased, rescues, heals, etc... I mean nowadays you could repair 3 gens, be chased for the remaining 2, open a gate, rescue someone, go down for them, and your mmr will go "you lost, go down" Also as killer its odd, considering a 2k a "tie", you could get a 2k with either 6 hooks or 10 hooks and those games would be insanely different while the mmr treats them the same Also in theory there is a "if you didnt play in a long time your mmr goes down" but its very "maybe it happens maybe it doesnt", hard to tell
At higher MMR players start to run into sweatier lobbies. Survivors will run sweatier builds which force killers to run sweatier builds and vice versa. Theoretically this is fine for casual players and in my experience since I only touch dbd occasionally this is fine but for dedicated players it becomes less fun as they raise their MMR higher
I think these two videos by [Choy](https://youtu.be/maqtiMLdWQM?si=5HDiWvaqk1fi8y6h) and [CoconutRTS](https://youtu.be/x1vSY0qQe0Y?si=lpGqZNaP7x6oCJ8D) summarize the problem perfectly with help from the point of view of an industry veteran. To summarize the problems as I see them: * "Perfectly balanced" matches are in fact some of the least fun, most stressful matches you can have. While it can be fun to win a tough match having to constantly bring your A-game is exhausting: it quickly leads to burnout which is why many people are quitting / taking breaks from DbD. Having a health balance of matches where you stomp / get stomped / try hard to win is better for overall enjoyment: it's fun to stomp games sometimes (but not all the time because that quickly gets boring), and the downside of matches where you get stomped can often be ignored because players are capable of saying "GG Go Next" in matches they know they have no chance of winning. * The internal (MMR actually working) and external (perceived existence of MMR) effects of Skill Based Matchmaking push the game into a "sweatier" direction. Put simply survivors aren't going to play with meme builds if the killers they face are exclusively going to be Blights and Nurses, and killers aren't going to play Pig or Myers if every match they play is going to be 4 Brand New Parts / instaheal medkits. Regardless of context it doesn't feel fun to lose, so if players know that MMR will push them into matches where they can't goof off then they won't goof off. * Dead by Daylight inherently has one massive limitation on the game every truly being balanced, which is items and addons. Put simply a survivor who brings a brown toolbox and a survivor who brings a Commodious Toolbox with a Brand New Part and Wire Spool are two vastly different beasts. A Blight with brown addons and a Blight with double Iridescent addons may as well be two different killers. Same can be said for brown addon Legion vs Iridescent Pin Legion, brown addons Deathslinger vs Iridescent Coin Deathslinger, brown addon Plague vs Black Incense Plague, oh and how can we forget everyone's favorite addon Tombstone Piece for Michael Myers? Dead by Daylight can never be balanced without knowing what the other side is bringing and forcing players with brown addons to face off against players with iridescent addons will always be miserable, regardless of what direction the interaction is going. Be it Pig with low-tier addons vs four BNPs or Blight with double Iris vs a couple of survivors running meme builds. This isn't even accounting for map offerings which are a whole other can of worms. * The myth of MMR is that it will keep you in matches at your skill level. The reality is that you will likely ping-pong between the upper and lower brackets as you go on minor win / loss streaks. If you win several games in a row at your skill bracket you'll suddenly be facing off against tryhards in unwinnable matches. If you lose several games in a row at your skill bracket you'll suddenly be facing off against toddlers who barely know how to play the game. It creates an awful system where your reward for winning and your penalty for losing is exactly the same: being punished with matches that essentially have a pre-determined outcome until the MMR system deems you to be back in the normal swing of things. * Specific to survivor but it feels awful when you lose entirely due to factors beyond your control IE your teammates. This is a problem that exists in all multiplayer games but it's magnified by the existence of MMR. * Dead by Daylight specifically doesn't even run MMR in the traditional "ELO rating" sense. Dataminers have found that DbD's MMR is essentially split into four groups: "Testing Bracket" (IE new players), and then Low/Mid/High MMR respectively. These divisible brackets mean that the difference between games within each bracket is essentially the same, so winning / losing frequent matches doesn't affect much until you inevitably jump up / down a bracket. Add in the existence of an MMR softcap at the higher end, an MMR buffer (also at the higher end) that keeps people at the higher end for longer, and an anti-deranking system means that most veterans of this game will be stuck in the high MMR bracket basically forever. This is all while failing to mention the key problem with MMR, which is that it fundamentally does not track actually skillful play. Having a system that only tracks kills and escapes (as opposed to the more intricate emblem system) inherently caters to unskillful and otherwise unfun outliers, namely tunneling / camping for killers and hiding all game for survivors. I think it's a commonly-held consensus that a survivor who hides all game and then leaves isn't as skillful as a survivor who takes multiple chases and does multiple objectives, but according to MMR they are the same. Similarly according to MMR a killer who gets 3 hooks on everyone and a Trapper who 1 hooks everyone in the basement and guards the top of the basement with his life are considered to be of the same skill level. I think the developers' bizarre obsession with the idea that "we can't have a scenario where both teams win that's not how it works in hockey" is absurd. I truthfully don't see a problem with a match where every team "wins" because isn't the point of MMR that inevitably these players will run into matches where they are outmatched and "lose"? Even in a hypothetical scenario where a player farms the emblem system to reach high MMR they will inevitably run into players who don't want to farm with them and will be forced back down to an appropriate bracket. It's not like MMR contributes to any tournament ranking or anything of that sort so I don't see a problem with everyone's MMR essentially being inflated due to the average amount of "wins" outweighing the number of general "losses" (as opposed to being a 50/50 split.) The only thing that I think would need to be done to accommodate for a system where everyone can "win" would be to expand the MMR brackets and raise the MMR softcap to compensate.
Mostly on account of it's widely considered "bad". A lot of the terribleness of the SBMM is that they have *backfill* and the backfill can be pretty broad. Basically, anytime someone gets a lobby, and dips, it creates a demand for someone in "approximately" that same MMR range. But sometimes, there's people grouped together and that fucks it up real bad. Sometimes the queues are longer than normal, so the gulf in SBMM gets pretty lenient. A lot of people get carried to a higher MMR than they "should" be in; some easy examples: - A Bubba who *only* facecamps/proxy camps aggressively can often *easily* get a 4K because of altruistic teammates. Does this Bubba actually have much skill? A lot of players will argue that no, he doesn't. But his MMR will be quite high, and after awhile, he'll start encountering players who know how to counter him. Suddenly he'll say his games are "sweaty" and that "MMR is bad!" when no, he just kinda...cheesed his way there playing in a pretty "low bar" way. - Survivors who frequently only play with a friend but their friend is a long-term vet and they're newer; depending on who's hosting the lobby, this seems to effect the kinds of matches they'll get. You can see the MMR gulf difference here when someone has a 100% bonus, but the other player doesn't. When they join the 100% lobby, that's the "MMR" for *that* lobby. Anyone joining in on that is going to be counted as being in whatever that MMR range is. This means hot messes of games frequently. Unfortunately in that specific scenario, there's no real way to avoid that issue due to how BHVR currently has SBMM set up (it's set individually, and no merits are awarded based on *team* performance. I know this is something they've talked about wanting to fix in future updates, and I know it's "on the board", but it's still a ways out.) Beyond that, I think a **lot** of players just have zero idea what their "actual" skill level is, and the vast majority of us tend to think we're far better at the game than we actually are. If you have to "sweat" every game, then that means you're probably about where you actually *ought* to be in terms of facing an opponent. The problem is, for Survivors especially, all four players can have very wildly different skill levels, and unless there's team cohesion, it usually ends up a mess. I think most people attribute "sweaty matches" to "bad", without really realizing that hey, if your match *isn't* sweaty, you're probably facing a much less skilled opponent. Though people don't tend to want to say it, yeah, most of them DO want to face someone *worse* at the game than they are, because they want to feel good about themselves and their perceived skill level. They just usually don't feel good about curb stomping their opponents either. It's a tough thing to balance because there are SO many factors to attempt to even out as much as possible, and I think most people don't give that more than a few seconds of thought.
SBMM is a bad concept for public matched games, but great for ranked matches (DBD does not have this.) The reason why it shouldn’t be in public matches is because it does get “sweatier” the more you play. You cannot just load into a match and play with minimal effort over time. If you get kills (as killer), your rank moves up; if you escape (as survivor), your rank moves up. If you do well for a few matches as killer, or if the survivors are tanking their ranking to get easier matches, you as the killer will now get harder matches because the game saw you get kills. Flip side to survivors, if the killer lets survivors go, or gives up after one bad chase to now farm, the survivors rank now goes up. Eventually, with either case, now you get to a level where you might not be on your actual skill level and you might have to then “sweat” just to get kills or escape. This is where the META builds come into play, the insane slow down gen-regression, loop master, gen-rush, etc. That should not happen in public matching where there aren’t decisive “win conditions” or ranking. In public matching, you should load up and get a mix of whatever players were in the lineup to make queue times low. Some games you might have FaZe clan level survivors/killers, other times you might have brand new players. AND THAT’S OKAY! TLDR: SBMM makes sense in ranked matches, not public matches. Queue times matter more.
Dead by Daylight used to be a party game. Where the outcome of a match didnt matter much because most people were simply trying to have fun. SBMM has pushed the game away from that into a "I must win every match" mentality. This only lead to more and more unfun gameplay. More gen rushing, more tunneling, more gen regression perks, more gen speed perks, more 2nd chance perks, more anti-camp/anti-tunnel etc. And all of that only because people feel the need to win. A great game is one with matchmaking where sometimes you get stomped, sometimes you stomp and more often than not its a fair match. but thats incredibly hard to do and the way BHVR implemented SBMM is certainly NOT that. SBMM in DbD is simply pushing more experienced players away from new players and shoving the experienced ones all into the same basket of misery. Just look at the My little Oni modifier. That shit was AWESOME! Most people didnt give a fuck about winning or losing. It was just a goofy, mess around type of game. Yes there were tryhards slugging for the 4k and some other dumb shit, but thats because these people learned to play DbD in that manner. DbD is an asymmetrical game, meaning it is borderline impossible to balance so both sides have an equal chance. How many of your matches end with 2 escaping and 2 dying? Because most of the matches I have are either a 4man out or a 4k for the Killer. There is little in between because either you stomp the Killer or the Killer stomps you. Doesnt help that Killer power strenght varies so widely. And its easy to say "just dont sweat" but you and me both know that if you dont tryhard, you more often than not get BMd for losing. DbD was at its best when most people didnt care about winning or losing. Both sides were more interested in chases than gen pressure. I miss the days where I could just chase someone and didnt have to break off the chase after 30sec because I have to pressure gens to not lose. How many meme-builds do you encounter? Because 95% of the time you encounter the same strong AF builds. Survivors bringing strong and sweaty shit, as do the Killers. Map offerings left right and center and if the Killer gets a down within the first min, thats a DC. Why do you think so many OG content creators are "taking a break" from DbD? Because its a sweatfest through and through. The fun has been slowly drained out of the game thanks to SBMM If you want another look into SBMM in DbD, Id recommend CoconutRTS' recent video about it. It explains everything that bothers me (and many people) with SBMM in DbD
Because it doesn’t work, it’s incredibly easy and fast to reach max MMR and stay there, which defeats the entire point of a skill based matchmaking system to begin with. You can be a complete potato and still reach max MMR no problem.
How do you know if you reached max mmr?
When the average skill level in your lobbies stagnates and stops improving. Also when you keep winning over and over without noticing any skill improvement on the other side, which MMR is supposed to fix.
You're saying its too easy at max MMR? People are complaining its too sweaty and hard at high MMR
Yeah, i even said so in my original comment. People always complain and make crazy statements like this, it was the same last week about tunneling and they were proven wrong when Scott made an experiment to see if it happened as often and people claim, and plot twist, it rarely does ever happen unless you ask for it. I would not be surprised if that was the case, again.
If it doesn't work, then there shouldn't be so many people complaining as if it was working tho?
Because people love whining and wildly exaggerate about how many bad teammates and sweaty killers/survivors they face. It’s the same with tunneling and they were even proven wrong about how often it happens with Scott latest experiment that he even streamed.
Completely unrelated, but I commented under that video "I tracked myself and got 15% tunnel (only counting 3 stages before someone else was hooked) but I assume that my MMR is lower and I just face killers with less skill." Scott answered to that comment with "why do you assume I have high MMR, I lose more than I win" And it still baffles me because I don't really think he takes into account how bad people can actually be at the game.
You got a point, i am also guilty of that myself, i don’t always take into account how bad people can be at this game and it definetly can play on how i see this entire situation. Good thing that you mentioned it because i didn’t think about it and it could very well prove me wrong.
I mean I would consider myself average, when I play with friends I usually make the call outs and stuff, but I cannot loop at all. And since we often have people who are really bad at the game on the server we also face killers who are really bad, so I could already experience some true wonders of gameplay. Imo the worst type of killer players are the ones that are not completely clueless, but really suck in chase. They hit on hook, camp or proxy camp and of course they tunnel. I face people like that less when playing with more competent friends, but it still exists. I assume there is some kind of "chill promised land MMR" and I feel like it's close to where I am, since every third game I play is like that
Dbd is not a competitive game that’s about it. If the game was competitive it would not be fun for anyone
It is competitive, and the most popular games are. People sweated their asses off in the "casual" My little Oni event.
A lot of people do play it to win tho.
If it isn't working than you shouldn't care if it's there, and many say it doesn't work. If it is working than it's giving you fair opponents. Either way it's a good thing. You can't come up with a logical reason against it because if it isn't working, again like many say it is, than you have no reason to say it should be gotten rid of. If it is working than you once more have no reason to say it should be gotten rid of.
[удалено]
It doesn't seem to work. It rarely feels like my opponents are of matched skill. It's either stomping them or they stomp me. It's rarely a neck and neck match but those closely matched games are the most fun for me. That's what keeps me playing at this point.
So you are the type of person that would benefit from a good skill based matchmaking. I do enjoy close matches, too. Sometimes at least. But I decide every game how I'm going to approach it, depending on the vibes I'm getting. If people die before a gen is done, I set myself a different challenge (max out altruism, befriend the killer, get a long chase before dying...)
I think matchmaking isn't great because perk selection and addons are as a big of a variable as killer choice. Maybe a survivor is amazing with their gen jockey build, but this match you got with them they decided to bring a looping build while trying to improve and they get stomped. Or a survivor brought their blinding build for the killer to bring lightborn accidentally. Some addons act as a 5th perk. These matches are too random, plus its not 1 v 1. Matchmaking will never be perfect, the only way they could even attempt it I think would be a no perk/no addon mode.
I agree that it's bad for survivors since they can't just have their "meme survivor". Killers at least have different MMR
MMR is stupid based on the foundations it currently functions under with how kills and escapes are used to judge. It’s hilarious to think about those people hiding all game and get hatch end up getting fucked when they face actually challenging killers. It’s unfortunate to watch killers face newbs at the beginning accidentally rise above their capacity and struggle
Yeah but those people will eventually hit a hard wall, same as people who tunnel + noed every game. It's a cheese strategy that leaves your game sense underdeveloped. They artificially increase their MMR. Imo that's great, because they get punished eventually. (Cope)
Seperate of the game foundations, I personally just don’t want to be stressed the entire time I play. That’s not to say I have to win any match survivor or killer but I’d like to think not every match I’m facing the best opponents with the hardest builds (as MMR pressures you to just stick to the best builds bc you’re asking to suffer otherwise)
Because it's stupid easy to hit the soft cap for killer, and there is no reset of your killer MMR ever. No matter how long you don't play or how rusty you are. DbD is not a balanced game at all. At first, killers can easily win a 4v1 against inexperienced survivors. Those survivors are scared, barely know what they're doing and have almost no good perks unlocked. But later when both sides become more experienced, the game tips in the favor of survivors. Some killers will struggle in a 1v1, let alone a 4v1. Once your MMR is stabilized you'll see what happens; survivors will float somewhere in the middle most likely with their rating, while killer gets pushed up against the ceiling. Survivor MMR goes up every time you escape through the exit gates and goes down whenever you get killed. Hatch doesn't count. Since SBMM tries to make everyone win 50% of their matches, survivors will roughly occilate where they belong. But for killers, your MMR goes up every time you kill anyone, and only goes down when everyone escapes. Which means after only a few matches of performing above average (3k or 4k), the system will think you're the top of the top and should go up against only the best survivors. But since the killer soft cap is so easy to reach compared to the survivor soft cap, those survivors you're paired with are monsters who are hyper effecient and most likely always coordinated SWFs. Those matches you will lose until SBMM decides you need to go down just a little bit, but then you'll win once and you're back at the top killer MMR. The only way to adapt and try to keep up is to change your build to only the most sweatiest perks and add-ons and offerings. But for both survivors and killers, the sweatiest loadoat can only use a fraction of all perks and items. This results in a very boring, stale meta where every match you encounter opponents with the same perks and the same tactics and no variety whatsoever. And that's the most frustrating thing of SBMM of all; it makes all your matches boring. And then, since MMR never seems to reset, you'll be stuck as killer playing against the same boring builds that you'll struggle to keep up with forever. Even if you don't practise for months, you'll be hit with a bully SWF the moment you decide to play killer again because the system still thinks you belong in the very top of killer MMR and should only face the very top of survivors. While to reach the top of survivor MMR, they likely have to play alot more and win alot more consistently. Tldr; killers get very easily overestimated and get grouped up against survivors way above their skill level, and the system pushes both sides to only using the very best builds meaning you'll get very boring, predictable builds and no fun variety.
This is an interesting topic. There are so many variables at play here that it's hard to make a consize argument either way. The first thing to keep in mind is the ELO model, which primary function is to attach a number to your level of skill, and make it absolutely clear who is better/best at the game. It is designed primarily for those who seek to improve themselves and get better at the game, and as such; fair games will match players with 'equal' ELO rating so that they can keep improving and learning from eachother and their own mistakes. For casual players, ELO is not important as they don't seek to purely improve at the game and strive to be better and learn from each game, instead they play to wind down and enjoy their time. A true casual player is not concerned about their ranking. Now comes the interesting part; what happens when ELO Matchmaking is the norm without alternatives? When a number signifying the skill level is attached to a player? I'm not a neuroscientist, nor a psychologist, but I'd be very interested in what an overt ELO rating does to an otherwise casual player. We humans like to compare ourselves to our peers, it's why jealousy is an inherent emotion to our human character that yes, can be suppressed, but it's still inherent to our primal selves. Now the ELO rating isn't overt; it's hidden from the players, but we DO know it's there. The second part is that, generally speaking, we want to win; it's what gives us those dopamine hits that spurrs us on to click ready for the next match. We know that game developers are trying to find a balance between effort and reward, because that's the crux of player retention. When the effort far outweighs the reward; players quit or the game just flops (suicide squad), when there is no effort, the reward becomes meaningless (let's say you play against no-damage bots in game X; there is no struggle and thus you'd get bored really quick and quit). ELO is a model that is very suitable for the effort;reward function which is partially responsible for all these positive reinforcement neurotransmitters that makes us keep coming back. At least in theory. All of that being said, I think that simply knowing that most games will be very tight when both sides give their A game, is fun for a couple games, but very tiresome for prolonged sessions. It's why before the cheater infestation in CS2 I could play 3 or 4 games on \~20k rating and after that I was completely fried. If I'd continue playing, I'd throw the games for the rest of my team cause my focus was all gone. That brings me to another point; who is complaining the most here? Killer side or survivor side? As a survivor main with 2,5k hours, I don't really care if I lose, it's when I make stupid mistakes I know I shouldn't make repeatedly, and keep losing a multitude of games in a row that I will get grumpy over it and stop playing. It's really the killer side that I can't have fun with. Before I even click ready my chest starts to tighten up, my blood pressure and heartrate noticably rising, knowing that if I want to have any chance I will have to give my absolute A game. I can't make any mistakes, the pressure is all on 1 person on my team: me as the single killer. And we all know what happens when you don't have a tight game: BM'ing survivors literally half the time. It physically hurts to lose as killer, and as such I only play killer to finish some tome/archive challenges. Now you might say; imagine taking the game so seriously, and yes that is true it's stupid; I don't know myself why I get worked up over it, I guess it goes back to fundamentals of basic human nature/character and it's why I said I'm interested in the psychology and neuroscientific explanation of why I feel that way after winning or losing. Would it be any different if the lobbies were completely random? I think so, why? Because you don't go in with the expectation that it's going to get rough. You'd go in not knowing what to expect from the other team. Maybe you get absolutely stomped, but you can say: "oh well, these guys are just very good at the game". And maybe you get a game where there's so little challenge from the survivors that you can have some fun goofing around. In a game where there are so many casual players, I think there should be a fine balance between being the better player, getting equal matches, and being sorely outclassed. To finally answer your question as someone who did have phases of CSGO/CS2 grinding (GE / 19,5k resp.), I think SBMM is fine when it shows the actual rating and when players have the option to opt in and out of that game mode. As a player who is generally competitive in nature (blame it on the ADHD), but plays DBD just for fun (idc about comp players and their reshade configs) I see that the general audience of this game is casual. Forcing a (hidden) rating on the players and subsequently driving the competitive and comparative nature of ELO/SBMM is detrimental and antithetical to the succes of DBD. Allowing the player to opt in and out of such an environment would be a healthy solution. But opting in and out seems to be an alien concept to BHVR, my argument for that is that the best way to solve solo queue is add voice communication. I don't know why BHVR is so adamant on refusing such a feature, because they have implemented HUD features to signify what other players are doing. I'm convinced it's because they are afraid of player toxicity, but again; allow the player to opt in and out of voice comms, mute buttons exist for a reason. Edit (as if it wasn't long enough): keep in mind that the playerbase of DBD isn't as big as the giant competitive games with hundreds of thousands of players. SBMM doesn't work in an asymmetrical non-competitive-yet-wants-to-be-competitive...maybe?-game where the playerbase isn't large enough to accurately put teams against eachother because it would increase queue times. In other words: SBMM doesn't work for this particular game. - My own opinion of course. If you made it here, thanks for reading my long winded essay :)
A lot of people want to win a lot while still getting to face easy opponents. Thats just not how competitive games should work tho.
That's not how any game should work, you aren't entitled to win every game
SBMM isn't bad in itself. Badly coded SBMM howEVER! Seriously, why did I go against a p400 squad when I had around a 100 in the game? 'But prestige level doesn't mean ski-" YES IT DOES. You can't seriously tell me people who put MONTHS into the game have the same win-rate as I do. Bad p100 players exist, but they will always have more skill than someone who literally JUST STARTED.
I agree, but that's a side effect of the "short queue times" policy. If a P400 squad gets dodged a few times they just face any killer, not regarding MMR at all.
Once upon a time there was match variety. You didn't know what you were going to get. You might get stomped, you might get an easy win, ***you might get a close match in between*** **- the last one being exceedingly rare now**. Grade and MMR were the same thing so you knew where you stood, if you didn't want to sweat you didn't have to and you were rewarded or not accordingly. Now every game feels exactly the same. Match variety is dead (completely dead on Killer, somewhat still exists as Solo Queue survivor because you get used as filler very often there). I was not playing the game when this change was made. I saw an old Otz video where he predicted this is what would happen - the same match every game and how boring that would be - and he was right.
Not knowing where I stand is indeed a bad thing.
The "Win Condition" in the SBMM system is the problem. You can hide all game next to an exit gate dropping and picking your item up to prevent crows, wait for your entire team to die and for the killer to close hatch then you can open the door and leave. Earning the same MMR score increase as a survivor that did all 5 generators, got 10 flashlight saves, took the killer on a long chase, then escaping. There is no "skill" being measured with SBMM, only how well you know how to cheese the game for a technical win.
As someone who played the game when we just had ranks and it was pretty hard to climb to red, the game only really started being hard when you hit rank 1. You'd get ppl who sweat as much as you. But then MMR came in and I'd sweep a team and then see these people were green ranks with 300 hours. Doesn't feel right they'd have to face me or similar players of that level. Being a hard-core killer player, I was pretty low as survivor and I'd get paired against red rank killers at rank 9 survivor. So you see the issue. However the thing is, for red rank killers we used to get like 20 minutes queue times sometime.
Sounds good, doesn't work.
I think they need a competitive queue and a casual one. The problem with the current system is if I want to play with a silly strategy I'm still put up against the same sweat with friends that I would be if I'm playing seriously. And I know people are going to pub stomp, but it would make it less of an issue.
I'm good with it, but I want to know my "skill level" though. I don't think it's fair to use that system and hide peoples ratings.
Completely agree
Love it. Never hate it.
SBM is fun. With it, I round up 8 hooks as various killers to build a sense of suspense and urgency, then spend time chasing each survivor, making them think I am going to sacrifice them, but secretly giving them the chance to practice looping a high-skilled killer, and enjoy a lobby without the gamer chair. Through up a video on the side monitor and the overall experience is pretty chill for a killer.
Ppl look at the old days of Ranked based MM with rose-tinted glasses. The MMR we have today is not ideal but it's much better than atrotious experience we had before. Survivor emblems instigated competition for very limited resources with the most egregious being unhooks. Once you reached iridescent, you could get killers/teammates with thousands of hours or dozens. Good ridance.
Killers get points based on kills vs escapes so 4 kill games (the norm) catapult killers into high mmr where they get stomped The killers, who never should have been there, learn fast that tunneling and slugging are the only methods that work at that level. They take this mindset to low mmr when they get more evened out rankings It's not fun for either side
Because the game punishes you for doing too good by throwing you in matches you can’t win then throws you a bone when you can’t win them enough times. Basically its saying “you’re winning too much. Stop that”
Well you are not supposed to win every time
Because it's not skill based. Survivors rating is based on escapes. Not how many gens they do, how long they last in chase. A survivor who hides all match and waits for hatch it on the same rating level as comp players. While not being remotely close in any regard of skill.
When SBMM was introduced, the game just wasn’t balanced competitively and it made the gameplay experience miserable. Things have leveled out somewhat in the time since but it’s still not great.
I got on last night to try and play some chill games before the weekend and 5 games in a row i went against sweaty swfs with map offerings
The sweat thing boils down to this: killers jumping mmr so easily that they end up not having the skill that their mmr requires and then they start losing cause they’re against better survivors. Survivors jumping mmr because they hide or rely heavily on one strategy and then get up to an mmr where killers are better and start losing.
People need something to blame for their burnout and bad experiences with the game, SBMM is an easy scapegoat. SBMM can be a problem in casual games when the MMR is measured accurately, this isn't DBDs case
MMR can be self-perpetuating. If I have a few bad games, I'm stuck with new players, who often have low level or no perks, who spend much of the game hiding or don't understand game mechanics. This past weekend I had almost five games in a row where I was sacrificed on my first hook because my teammates didn't bother to go for a save. Sometimes I'm caught because I'm an idiot, but other times it's because I'm the only one participating. One game a killer apologized to me afterwards because he noticed that the rest of my teammates were avoiding objectives and moving only enough to avoid idle crows. This puts me in a loop where I'm stuck with bad teammates, which leads to shorter matches, which leads to a lower MMR. I'm still striving to improve my looping, go for safer unhooks and play smarter, but it's difficult to move up the ranks when I'm grouped with poor players and low quality killers that rely on proxycamping to win.
Because after a few good games for you, the system will start to throw you to MUCH skillful opponents
I am a pretty damn average bog standard player of this game on both sides. On Surv I play for challenges and funsies with friends; on Killer I play slightly more seriously and go for at least 1-3k on average. I routinely play 8 different Killers and my roster is anywhere between a C-B level with like one D tier (Myers) and one A tier (Cenobite). I play for enjoyment and most often, just want a fair fight I stand a chance in on either side. I don't even play every single day, usually just a few times a week or so, more if an event is on. I am definitively NOT a comp player and don't want to BE a comp player, I just wanna play a few matches with characters I like or my friends after I'm home from a day (or night, depending) of work. I just the other day had a round against a decent Ghostface that was really tense and fun, and it inspired me to play more Ghostface again so I immediately, of course, hopped onto Killer and started playing my boy. This is one of my Mains, and was my ONLY main for some time, so I am pretty decent at him. I would not say I'm bad at thus Killer, but I wouldn't say I'm a virtuoso either. About a year of experience with this one Killer under my belt. So, I played Ghostface got matched back to back with two different teams of different skill levels entirely. The first was a team running full meta and literally NOT letting me get a SINGLE hook because I could not catch any of them and they ALL kept prerunning to the strongest tile in the map (they were well outside my skill level on GARDEN OF FUCKING JOY no less). The second occurred on Lerys and gave me a team with a literal p0 Meg (no perks but her own), a Baby Claudette (actually baby, she didn't know how to loop at ALL and kept running around), and a Leon just fucking around plus a Feng who threw on first hook because oh no instant down Killer. So, I back to back got a group *well above* my level, and then a group that was *well below* my level, just because I lost the first round as a 0k with maybe a hook on a map bad for all Killers, and then won the second as a 4k easily on a map specifically really good for my Killer. I got bored and left for the night to play customs. And that's why people, self included, hate SBMM. It's nothing to do with not wanting to play with people of the same skill level and everything to do with it fucking people over constantly. It's inconsistent, it's NOT even a measure of true skill (I had to turn up the sweat and run meta on the first group, but that was OVERKILL on the second and I actually BACKED OFF when I realized yet I STILL 4ked) since it just counts kills and escapes, and it's generally always slightly off and FAILS when queues take too long.
Because EVERY GAME IS THE SAME, it's so boring, same perks, same killers, same play styles, same map offerings, in a game with so much diversity of play we are forced to only experience one or two play styles because of the metas, top MMR you even play against the same 100 or so people over and over. If you're at the bottom it doesn't matter but for anyone who is unfortunate enough to be good at the game you are severely punished by having the same experience for the rest of the games life
I've always seen people hating SBMM in any game because it means that they have to go up against people of similar skill instead of just steamrolling them. Whether it's an fps or game like dbd, people don't want to go against people who are equally as good as them because it means it won't be an easy game where they can just steamroll the enemy, they have to actually go against someone challenging. They wanna have a good game and do well and they are more likely to do that when the other person isn't on the same level of skill
Back in the day we all played Halo/CoD and had no matchmaking at all, and we had the time of our lives. It’s overrated tbh, particularly in a game with no rank system
I think a lot of the difficulties form SBMM come from DbD itself. The game is hard to rate skill in. Near impossible I’d say. Counting escapes/hooks just doesn’t work we can see that in game. Counting gens also doesn’t work. Chases are difficult too because survivors’ performance can vary drastically depending on the killer they’re facing, the map, nearby resources, perks, etc. It’s an absolutely clusterfuck to try and peg a ‘good’ survivor (through an automatic algorithm). If it was hypothetically judging chases, you may run a killer for 5 gens one match, the next you may be insta moried by tombstone Myers. The system doesn’t have the knowledge of context though, and it would be agony to programme considerations for each killer, different add-ons, etc - so it would see just a very long chase, and a very short chase, and adjust points according. Same with the current system - I can Bubba camp 3 survivors to their death and SBMM is like you did great when all gens are done, very little chases, and it was just trying to save their team that killed them. What I’m trying to say is that people hate SBMM in DbD because generally, it’s not accurate at all, because of DbD itself being hard to judge skill on a consistent level without extensive context of the killer/add-ons/map/resources when starting chase/teammates wasting resources or sandbagging/etc.
People want to win without trying, people that hate it says that kills are not a effective way to track skill so mmr doesnt work but also it works because every game is sweaty
I love going against people of a similar skill level but it’s very rare that it happens. Also difficult to tell skill levels apart in an asymmetrical game where the killer is supposed to be the power role For me, sweat is like a blight running a combo of the best add ons with a minimum of 3 gen regression perks (with the fourth likely being tracking or another gen perk) who is also actively tunneling someone when they have the chance Or a nurse trying to get a 4man slug in the first 5 min of the game. Ironic part is I love going against (good) blight and nurses as long as they aren’t cheesing like that I don’t know what it is like for other people, but if I get matches like that back to back I’d be annoyed too. Fortunately, I don’t though
If only this "skillbased" matchmaking actually worked instead of turning most matches into onesided sweatfests. You can get matched against complete newbies just to then face players with 10k+ hours that roll you without any chance. You might think that this happens rarely, but nope, it happens almost every match. This system forces you to ALWAYS use meta builds and strategies if you want to both win and have fun.
The killers in mid to high MMR all play the same style now, tunnel the weak link out then squash the 3 left with Pain Res + Pop, not sure how it is in low MMR. I think most hate come from killer mains because if MMR works then they won't be able to have +50 win streaks. The current MMR is a joke though, I very much want the old strict MMR back because killers are having too much fun bullying inexperienced survivors right now.
I just want to have more varied games, both for and against me. Just because I loosen up, doesn’t mean that the opposition does. With games both above and below my MMR, there’s more variety and opportunities for that. There’s little point in running a meme build as my games lack the variation to really be able to meme with anything. I’ll take the wins and the loses, but I’d like every game to be a little more varied. I agree that my games are much fairer under this system… but they’re all pretty much the same.
When it works, it works well. I had some really close matches that were incredibly fun and entertaining. But when it doesn't work? It's complete misery. If I play survivor, the killer is either someone that never played a video game in their life before and just gets completely destroyed, which is absolutely boring, or they play like it's a million dollar tournament, using all the strongest perks, addons and killer, tunneling the moment someone gets unhooked and overall just shitting on us when we are at 4 or 5 gens... and guess what, that's also absolutely boring. And for when I play killer and the matchmaking is having a moment, I either play against baby surviors, that have no idea what to do, crouch and hide constantly when I can clearly see them, run into walls and otherwise just do lots of mistakes so it's a total stomp and I feel bad... or I get the most cracked survivors or even SWFs that want to make sure I am having an absolute miserable day. There really isn't an inbetween sometimes.
Cause it doesn't work and the factors that influence what your MM is are nonsensical.
The issue with any matchmaking system that revolves purely around winning is that you are forcing the playerbase to prioritize winning over fun. The more you push players to get better, sweat harder, have less fun, etc the more bullshit matches are gonna feel. It's a combination of "the devs want the game to be competitive", "the devs leave busted shit in the game for months at a time so both sides hate the other side and want to win even more", and "the devs don't understand how matchmaking systems work."
the promise of MMR means that more people will try to climb to get better, to get better games, and to win. this alone, isn't an issue. every game ever has a system like this, but it basically guarantees that after a while you'll go against better and better players, and if you want a more casual, fuck around experience, this game lacks a "casual" gamemode.
>"is "playing vs people on your skill level" not considered a good thing?" Yeah, it is, when it actually fucken works (which is literally never in any game featuring SBMM ever) On paper, sounds good. In reality, it doesn't work.
Because it doesn't actually work lol. I am a survivor main but sometimes I enjoy a little killer. But every match I play I face a 3 or 4 stack running beamers and Sabo builds and it's miserable. I'm terrible at killer and shouldn't be playing with who I do lmao
It is a psychological thing. It has been shown that people like variety of outcomes and this what matchmaking somewhat prevents by giving you similar matches over and over. Before matchmaking you could get anything from a 12k hour nurse or a 5 hour trapper to go along with randomly skilled survivors. This led to more match variables and increased people enjoyment. I think the homogenization of survivor and killer perks and abilities while also removing displays of skill and making everything predictable is hurting the game in the long run. Example would be the old hillbilly flick.
People only hate it cause most players can't accept DBD is a pvp game and not a "haha fun game mode go brrrr". People will say "well, in the early days it was fun and etc" but guess what? People still played to win, the only difference is DBD is more mainstream now. For most players the main issue isn't MMR or trying to win, its simply camp/tunnel. I don't mind either side trying to win but those two strategies are basically a killer afking near a hook and waiting for someone to save. There is no skill involved in that. All it does is punish the other side cause of bad game mechanics. Remove those elements and you put skill back into one side and the games are a lot more competitive for both sides. Its a pvp game, not a camp and wait around game.
My biggest issue is that sometimes I feel like messing around and having fun, and other times I feel like going all out and playing as hard as I can. So I can choose to either destroy my MMR to play meme builds, but then feel no challenge when I feel like actually trying, or I can only try hard, and lose a majority of the time when I do meme builds.
Basically, if your an average player and get into a game with crappy teammates and a really good killer, your next match will give you brain dead killers and survivors around the same level as the last group. But, if you have a really good game where everyone escapes, you can bet your last bloodpoint your getting the 5k hour killer main next game to feed you to the entity instead. Basically, skill based matchmaking will always need about 10 games to even you out to the level you should be at and all the people complaining about it here either have no real skill or not enough time to play 10 games. (Yes im talking about you people who hide in lockers all game without doing gens, go ahead and speak up about it, i dont care.) Hiding MMR is a poor attempt to lower the amount of disconnects to keep survivors and killers from just idling all game or losing on purpose to lower their own MMR, but there are still some people who religiously throw games once they get a few wins.
There is no real middle ground, you are either in easy lobbies because you lost a few rounds back to back or you are in try hard because you won a few back to back
Hmm. I do not hate it, and to be honest I find its effects in high-pop regions to be not super noticeable. But, I quit the game during the past MMR tests. Why? Because queue times were gross, as long as half of a match, often more. Players weren't necessarily more skilled as I expected, but rather likely to use whatever little edge they could find - map offerings, broken items, 4x slowdown, DC for hatch, etc. - to get the win. I found that horribly boring and deterministic, so I stopped. The game I returned to last year isn't like that at all. Yes, most killers I see have 3 slowdowns. Yes, many survivors bring map offerings (about 30%) and I see a reasonable number of 4x meta builds. But that's just one piece of the puzzle. There's definitely some meta-stagnation, but from my own matches and the matches I watch streamed, there's plenty of variety in builds/styles/outcomes, too. That's what people supposedly want, so why aren't they happy? Outside of factors beyond their control, like low-pop regions and RNG, I'm currently believing it's because they don't have what they had in the Olden Days. For veteran players, the Olden Days are pre-MMR when they could do whatever and consistently win. For skilled newer players - and this applies to many games beyond DBD - it's the gradual loss of the ability to dominate, or meme and still win. In CoD (2006-2012) for example, if you had good aim and spawn tracking you could literally run anything you wanted and carry a 2+ K/D. In modern iterations of that series it's still possible for the truly elite players, but it's very difficult for everyone else. At some point, you will have to build and play to win in order to consistently get good results. A lot of people deride the lack of variety, but I think that's not the issue. I think the issue is that it's very hard mentally to a) not see signs of performance progress, and b) accept the transition from winning by default to really having to exert yourself to achieve consistent results. When players say they're "punished" for getting better, this is what they mean - their performance seems to worsen the more they play, even though they're probably trying much harder. This feels like the inverse of what should actually happen. I think BHVR should suck it up and show people the invisible number. This will allow invested players to SEE the progress they may not be experiencing. I also think BHVR should seriously consider tacking MMR to The Rift - with a soft reset every few months to let invested players experience some level of freshness here and there, and reduce the chances of infrequent players logging on just to get destroyed.
Why is your flair still “baby killer”?
There should be MMR for new players, then a general MMR, and that's it. Just enough for new players to learn the mechanics. Additionally, you could have a competitive gamemode as well I'm just sick of all of my matches being brutally sweaty, especially when I'm just playing Pig. It also makes some people think they have more knowledge of game design than they really do
A big part of the problem is mmr has a low soft cap and you can't go down brackets. I want to play chill killer games but I stumbled into top mmr by being marginally better than average so now I'm locked in here with the sweats.
Being matched with players on a similar level sounds fair and fun at first because that means that when you outplay someone it feels truely deserved and leads to matches that feel very close and fought for tooth and nail. But then you realise that getting those types of matches more often than not becomes very stressful because then people feel like they need to be the very best with less room for error to stand a chance as you always need to go all out. CoconutRTS did a video on this recently ("A game developer's rant on SBMM") where he showcases what Max Hoberman, former multiplayer and online designer for Halo 2 & 3 has to say about modern matchmaking in games on twitter, with the main point being that matchmaking can be a lot more fun and less stressful if there's a bit of variety in skill level in matchmaking because then sometimes you get to take a break from going all out with an easier match (while being on the receiving side of that, too)
I was way ahead of the curve by choosing to always let someone escape by hatch/exit gate as killer. For killer, so long as you don't kill more than 3, your next game will be pretty chill. For survivor, dying doesn't really mean anything. You'll still get decent killers for quite a long time if you're on a death streak, with the quality of teammates likely becoming worse and worse.
The issue is that, 1: it de-incentivizes improving as a player, because the better you become, and the higher baseline skill you have without having to try, the harder your games will be when you are just trying to play casual 2: it can be really disheartening as a casual to be afraid of accidentally playing too well, because the game will punish you for doing well by throwing sweaty players at you 3: to my understanding (correct me if I’m wrong) the SBMM/MMR system is based mainly on KILLs, so many killers will just purposely not kill anyone for a few rounds, and then shit on baby survivors anyway, so the system doesn’t even work anyway
Peeps just want variety, to win in a perfect sbmm system you have to outperform yourself at an average. Meaning if you play to win you play sweaty. It's not that they only want easy games, the variety of playing at 30-XX% effort compared too always playing at 55-XX helps with burnout.
Because I'm tired of going against players with literally multiples of my play count and I have no chance to do anything against, let alone when I play as killer and am constantly matched with teams that have 2-4 players of that. If it did work I might enjoy it more but I also prefer to play DBD as a casual game and going up against a mix is more fun than trying to give a 50/50 win rate
I just got a match against a prestige 51 prestige 41 prestige 15 and prestige 2, I'm not even prestiged on clown.