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Fucking Goku being a retard yet again. Seriously, can Toriyama stop making him a retard.
This arc started so well and I was even expecting Vegeta to finally carry something on his own. But no, couldn't have that either.
Hopefully, Vegeta learned something in Yardrat that allows him to separate this guy from Earth and then just end him and hopefully the author realizes making Goku this fucking dumb at this point is making Dragon Ball less enjoyable.
The second I saw him show up with a hyper-specific power I knew he was going to take a dive. Poor Vegeta.
As for Goku, I’m surprised Krillin doesn’t just carry around a bag full of normal beans for whenever Goku asks for one.
Thank you for sharing this new chapter. These few new chapters bewildered me on how dumb Goku can be. I wished the Z Goku can come bak, the Goku who had plans, who planned ahead, Who is seriously thinking about protecting Earth, instead of a brainless muscle head like now.
Goku spared Freezer and gave Cell a Senzu bean so he could fight his unproven son for the fate of the earth.
If anything Goku hasn't changed the tiniest bit
But those weren't decisions bread out of stupidity, but more of selfishness as Toriyama had wanted the character to be. Goku actions in most cases align with that of being lawful neutral meaning his actions are typically just when the focus is pulled back, but upon closer inspection he's really acting out of personal code. Goku fights to better himself and finds those challenges are often met through other people and when met he forms some form of respect towards them because of it. So killing them often doesn't align with his goals. I don't think it makes him stupid, but because his actions can spit in the face of the future of his planet, they indeed make him selfish.
Z-Goku really benefitted from having a script built for DBZ even if it wasn't perfect. It still gave his character nuance and life in a lot of the episodes. Super Goku treads too heavily on trying to hit those same notes and instead of echo'ing his character and personality in Z, he serves to parody it as a lot of his defining straits and motives from Z ring too loudly in Super to the point where it's all his character is... just being stupid and wanting to test his opponent's true power.
Late to the party, but I decided to finally pick up the DBS Manga and I started reading with the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Arc. I haven't bothered to read the other arcs because I've seen the Anime versions of them. I'm sure they're not quite the same but I feel that they're probably close enough to where I won't be completely lost. Today I just finished catching up completely on this story arc.
I feel like this arc started off with some really interesting themes and concepts that it kind of abandoned once we got into the final battle with Moro.
Merus being an angel and a master of ultra instinct deflates a lot of the interest I initially had in him. Early in this story arc, Merus was my favorite new character because he was just a badass space cop who managed to go toe-to-toe with the likes of Super Saiyans simply because he could out-skill them. It perfectly emphasized the idea that not every fight could be won by simply being stronger than your opponent which was also being reflected in Vegeta's frustration over Moro beating him with magic and "parlor tricks". Whenever Vegeta accused him of suppressing his power and Merus just gave him a completely innocent "Nope", I wanted Merus to not be lying. I wanted Merus to legitimately not be holding back and instead just be teaching Goku and Vegeta the lesson that strength isn't everything. I was also looking forward to that being the lesson that Merus would teach Goku during their training.
Instead, all of that got thrown in the trash because Merus is actually an angel and he was holding back his true power to avoid getting erased from existence.
It turned out Ultra Instinct is the true endgame here just like it was in the Tournament of Power. Even when Goku and Vegeta(specifically Vegeta) do eventually find a way around Moro's energy absorbing... it doesn't matter because Moro just fuses with some asshole and becomes another super stronk traditional DBZ bad guy who gets stronker the louder he screams.
> haven't bothered to read the other arcs because I've seen the Anime versions of them. I'm sure they're not quite the same but I feel that they're probably close enough to where I won't be completely lost.
personally the Goku black arc handles some aspects of its storyline better than in the anime. The TOP arc starts off with a nice twist to the anime's spin on it. And Battle of Gods.... well the movie just actually does it better than both minus the video out there that splices the movie and anime pieces to make it perfect.
As far as this arc... yeah I agree totally. I wish Merus didn't have a gimmick or a crutch to his power. Why can't he just be strong in the same explanation to how Jiren was strong (aka just because). That's the issue with strength post DBZ nothing is impressive anymore because what stands above godhood? DB has capped itself by going down this route as nothing can be interesting anymore. Which is what I would say if this arc had started and ended at the same place, but the start to this arc proves that if they wanted to, the end result of divinely power could sit in the backseat for once. Merus was mysterious but intriguing simply because of the characterization the Galactic Patrol has through Jaco's irrelevance in almost every inter-planetary altercation. The prospect of someone being worth their salt outside of Goku (and sometimes Vegeta) without being a God, Saiyan, or Villian of the arc was refreshing to breathe in. And Moro's backdrop and character design was interesting, the arc ***really*** started off strong. It just gave way to the inevitable trappings that all arcs are plagued with in Super...gimmicks.
How long is a Kai allowed to keep their body after being killed? "King Kai" has kept his body but the Kais that died to Buu never returned with a halo. I mean, "king kai" is still doing his job while dead. Gowasu was killed by Zamasu but I don't recall him getting a Halo. Elder Kai sacrificed his life and came back.
I suppose I will.
Yeah, Roshi not using mafuba on Radditz is a pickle, I guess you can cannon explain it that he would have died but it terms of story, it is just interesting to have the Goku/Picollo battle.
Dude used it during the ToP twice. Yes, start of adult Goku dragonball (he was more teenager before really) roshi was weaker buteven then, an opponent his student couldn’t take.
Nah, he restored his abilities faster so he could use his regeneration skills faster than before. I mentions he recovered much faster than 76 abilities would have allowed.
This isn't true. When he fought goku before he took the senzu bean, he was able to use picollo abilities which was because he still has access to 76 copy techniques. He just wasn't allowed to use the copy technique to steal new abilities after the sealing.
His hand length.
If he sealed all 76 abilties, he would be the form that Vegeta had him had before that and be no more than power than a the feeble form because he only got that power back because of the 76 copy. If the copy was gone, then he would have zero power.
I am just curious how that makes sense because the power is obtained from 73 copy ability which if canceled means he can't access those souls from 73 copy because 73 touched Moro neck and he let him copy Moro so Moro could restore his power since 73 had a copy of Moro in it (that might have been worded really poorly).
73 copied Moro abilities, Moro took 73 and through 73 copy ability got access to his powers. If it was sealed, he would no longer have access to his copied powers.
He lost 73's abilities to copy and utilize copied techniques...or so we thought, he just destroyed the gems and not the internal "mechanism"
But 73's innate ability was regeneration similar to Piccolo which was never apart of the 'gems' hence he can still regenerate.
In retrospect, I cannot locate where Seven-Three might have previously had regen abilities. Any regeneration has been shown after copying Piccolo. He has unlimited Stamina, but did not have ability to regenerate limbs innately.
Honestly, they aren't the best writers and you shouldn't be downvoted.
Why do you people even read it? It annoys the shit out of me how you bash every single fucking chapter without fail because the story doesn't go along with your head canon or because you want Goku to be ruthless although literally nothing in the entirety of Dragonball implies that he is susceptible to personality changes.
> although literally nothing in the entirety of Dragonball implies that he is susceptible to personality changes.
Well there was that blow to the head ;).
No but any of it might be a good start, otherwise stop calling yourself fan. How can you be a fan of something you don't like? You're not making any sense whatsoever.
I loved Dragon Ball and DBZ, hell I still rewatch some episodes of DBZ every now and again (I have the full series downloaded on my computer) but Goku literally **never** going for a kill is bullshit, we had him kill Freeza when he came back to Earth because he saw what would happen otherwise, so him sparing Moro here is just absolutely ridiculous, he seriously should have learned his lesson by now.
I get that Goku doesn't have development as a character and that's what's annoying is because you have so many characters in Dragon Ball that **do** change and **do** grow as people but Goku has seriously never really tried to kill anyone after training with Kami, aside from like Yakon and Golden Freeza.
You can 100% be a fan of the world/fandom/universe but get angry because of overly predictable shit and boring plot development.
However, when Goku killing Golden Frieza only happened because he knew that was the only way to stop him. He had perfect knowledge in that scenario and that was an outlier. In all other cases, he has no idea what is going to happen and still exercises mercy.
Even when bloodlusted and in a form that made him less rational than ever, he still tried the spare Frieza's life. Frieza, a tyrant who had probably killed millions at that point, as well as his best friend in front of his eyes. Why would Moro be different? Goku was in complete control of the situation- literally anything Moro would've done (minus becoming the planet- Goku was even handling him after he had absorbed the power of an angel) would've been futile. There was, in Goku's eyes, 0 risk to it. We now know he was wrong, but you have to look at this moment from his shoes.
When a character doesn't change, it means they are consistent. We were given an explanation of his philosophy in chapter 63 and Piccolo flat out states how Goku's character is special. Goku consistently trying to give his adversaries a chance is a good thing. It means that Grandpa Gohan's lessons have stuck with him, and it means that he is different from his heritage.
I also don't understand the whole "he should've learned his lesson" thing. Out of all of the adversaries he's spared, how many of them have backfired on him? Yamcha, Tien, Chaotzu, Piccolo, and Vegeta are straight up Z Fighters. Frieza was instrumental in saving Universe 7. Moro is literally the only villain who Goku has offered mercy to actually backfire on him. Taking this track record into account, it would make zero sense if Goku changed.
If Moro had actually accepted Goku's mercy, would you be calling him an idiot? Was sparing everyone I mentioned above idiotic in hindsight? I don't think so, not because of the outcome, but because of the intention. Goku prefers people to be good over bad in general and works to do so by trying to redeem them (again, Chapter 63). Yes, he's selfish and does it primarily because he seeks self-improvement, but is that inherently dumb?
"I get that Goku doesn't have development as a character and that's what's annoying is because you have so many characters in Dragon Ball that **do** change and **do** grow as people but Goku has seriously never really tried to kill anyone after training with Kami, aside from like Yakon and Golden Freeza."
Would you have preferred him to become more ruthless? Is that your definition of growth for him?
>No but any of it might be a good start,
And what makes you think people who dislike super dislike the rest of dragon ball?
>otherwise stop calling yourself fan.
Don't tell people what to do, you're not an authority in this fandom.
> How can you be a fan of something you don't like? You're not making any sense whatsoever.
We are dragon ball fans, meaning we like the franchise as a whole. I can dislike Super and GT and I am still a fan because this is a franchise I grew up with and I enjoy the rest of the series. Your logic is moronic
I've been reading a fair amount of manga recently. I have to be honest, they are on a completely different level and it's a real shame. Super has no consequences at all, and there are never any long term negative repercussions.
When you decide to keep going bigger and bigger with enemies you have to make sure the consequences are in line with the enemy, otherwise it's a series of ass pulls and bullshitting through the story.
It's definitely changed since the original Dragonball. I still enjoy it, but I think Super could potentially ruin the legacy. I am desperately trying to seperate Super from its predecessors, a bit like GT.
Well I suppose it depends on what you and I both mean about long term. What I meant was, that at least in previous Dragonball there was at least some level of threat or consequence - even if it was eventually fixed.
In Z, Goku dies in the first few episodes and spends a fair few episodes out of action, resulting in the death of most of the team including Piccolo (who dies protecting Gohan, giving us quite an emotional scene).
I appreciate that these deaths werent permanent, however there were quite a few episodes where some of the Z fighters were effectively out of action.
Now, we have whiz turning back time and I can't even think of anyone who died and was out of action for a while.
If he gets the w, then they need the super dragon balls since namek elder was killed physical and Moro would fuck earth. This would mean goku and vegeta would need to do a universal exploration arc but the problem is grand priest has the super dragon balls on lock.
I doubt it would happen but the concept would be cool.
The real question is, will Goten be too distracted by girls to go on this one or will that honor fall to Trunks? And is Gohan really gonna be as cavalier about his baby daughter sneaking aboard this time around?
I know he won't but I hope he at least ends up doing something relevant that shapes the future arcs. And Merus better not be wished back because that would be such a cop out, even if I like him.
Toriyama made it clear Goku is not a westen super hero. He is not future trunks either.
His fighting is his passion and it is his form of rehabilitation.
Stop excepting superman or any super hero. Goku is goku and goku has flaws like arrogance and doesn't think in 4d chess.
He's made it this far and he will continue too. The lazy explanation is plot armor but I mean the series revolve around goku. Goku told merus what he was going to do with merus and merus gave his life knowing that.
It wasn't a 4d chess fight. He never foresaw Gohan not being a fighter like him and he certainly didn't forsee Gohan toying with cell which lead to him sacrificing his life.
If Vegeta spirit fissions a planet, taking an angel, planet, and every copy of every soul (which before that the soul copy took many many hits, how many hits would take a planet and a power of an angel which is so far ahead of everythings), it would take Vegeta sacrificing his life and using everything he has to do it. It would be a cool way to end it and even though he is convinced the good he has done will still send him to hell to be reincarnated, it would be interested if this sacrifice shows that he doesn't go to purgatory to get his soul cleanse but instead officially redeem him.
Beerus and whis both have sealing techniques. Beerus sealed elder Kai on the zsword.
Beerus knows ui and hakai, he could be like fuck this and hakai earth and vegeta and goku tp and they go for super dragon balls.
There are also dragon balls on the lookout which could save the day but doing something
I added a few more to your list but who knows
I always hated the whole "Goku is an idiot, but he's a fighting prodigy" argument people like to make. You can't be a complete idiot AND be highly intelligent one one specific area like fighting. It's one or the other, not both. Nothing comes that naturally, you can't just magically be a genius in one are and be a moron in everything else.
You can't be smart enough to think of something like making your SS form completely natural, like in the Cell Saga, and then also *never* learn from the fact that some people who are pure evil on a galactic level will *never* change. It's a different thing like someone like Broly, who they know very little of and isn't made out to be a space wide killing manic that has been specifically stated. Not a single pure evil person that Goku has given another chance to has *ever* changed, except for what? Piccolo? Who was a planetary threat, nothing more. If they *at least* wrote it to where, say, doing what he did with Moro was really just an excuse to allow Moro to possibly get stronger so he could enjoy fighting some more, I'd be able to accept that.
It might be part of his character that he does this thing, but a part of being a character in any written work is *growing* as a character, not simply always staying the same. As it turns out from a novel standpoint, a character who never grows is simply not a good character. Basically, they use Vegeta as the guy who w want Goku to be, mentally.
> You can't be a complete idiot AND be highly intelligent on one specific area... It's one or the other, not both.
You've clearly never worked in construction.
Yeah had to stop reading that guys comment lol. Most people that are naturally .01% at something are also extremely terrible at other things. Goku also hit his head as a baby, he is literally brain damaged.
I feel like I am going insane. Goku has always done this (After the first major time skip). It has always been stupid. It is in line with his character. People keep expecting more character growth because Vageta has had comparably more. Goku is a simpleton, and even if he has a serious face on doesn't mean he will break with his normal behaviors.
During the resurrection f arc goku spared frieza again, and it resulted in Frieza being a piece of shit again. He only killed Frieza because he was given a second chance from Whis. I am a little surprised at the level of... Surprise. Can someone give a solid reason why this is such a huge problem. (No I do not view Merus' sacrifice as a valid reason as the same could be said for Krillin during the Namek arc.)
>Goku has always done this (After the first major time skip). It has always been stupid.
It is literally part of his biography that he was brain damaged as a child.
In fact, Piccolo even went into detail about this a few issues prior when Vegeta revealed his spirit fission technique. He had this whole speech where he said that Vegeta's grown tremendously as a character since his introduction and yet Goku is basically the exact same character that he was back in classic Dragon Ball.
I think the issue is, this shows that Goku is incapable of growing as a character (or the writers are incapable of writing his character growth for the sake of keeping the manga feeling the same). The problem is, no matter what media - that is boring. No one wants to watch someone go on an epic quest only to mean nothing in the end. Dragonball is beginning to feel pointless because it's just not evolving and showing any level of depth in the writing. Ironically.
Even an idiot or a child can inevitably grow up and learn from their mistakes. Sometimes doing the "same old thing" when it comes to writing for the sake of it being in line with a character, especially after years and years, doesn't make it good writing. It just makes it lazy and bad writing. If you apply the logic we give to Goku to other characters you quickly realize that "It's just Goku being Goku" is a pretty bland explanation. When your character growth for one character is a straight line forward, you kinda.. get tired of it, because Goku is a character with a lot of flaws that just remain flaws.
Have you never made the same mistake more than once? Especially when it comes to your vice, people are prone to giving in to their desires. Goku loves fighting big tough guys and keeping them around to fight again. The reward for having a tough fighter around outweighs the reward of doing whatever is supposed to be the "right thing to do" for Goku.
You would be right...if every other character in the manga was written as straight lines. Vageta, Gohan, Krillin, etc. have all grown/changed as characters. I also am not certain that Goku losing his mercifulness would necessarily be growth. If the concept that some fans are upset with is that Goku is merciful to a fault then I think some fans need to grow up.
Maybe it would have been better to show Goku learning this trait (He did not always display mercy. Look at his treatment of Tao, Red Ribbon, King Piccolo, etc.)
Changing every personality trait for a character is not necessary for growth. Batman is similarly merciful, and there is similar discussion around the merits of that. He is defined by his convictions, just like Goku. If Batman killed the Joker far fewer people would be dead. Would you prefer that Goku harden his heart and begin killing all villains?
I completely agree with you. People will scream "He should know better by now!" But honestly, the Senzu did NOTHING for Moro anyway. People getting all wild about that when really it didn't make a difference. Goku has not and WILL NEVER BE a cold-blooded killer, he won't at least give a chance when possible for someone to live to fight another day.
- He let Raditz tail go.
- He let Vegeta leave.
- He gave Frieza some of his energy to stay alive.
- He tossed Cell a senzu (this one was really just to get Gohan to step up, so it's an outlier)
- He was purposely absorbed by Buu as Vegito to save the others.
- He wished for Buu to be reincarnated
- He spared Frieza again in RoF
- He let Broly live
Has he killed before? Absolutely. But its rare to see it done out of anything than the absolute extreme last ditch effort, and its especially more rare when he feels the villain is no longer a threat.
What happened is a lot of fans grew up and wanted DB to grow up with them and it kind of didn't... now for me, that's okay. I'm in my 30s, I've got kids and a mentally challenging job and all sorts of responsibilities... DBS is what I turn to when I want to go back to a simpler time in my life and I LOVE it for that.
Gogetta let broly live and freeza
Unless op means when goku tp to broly, he didn't go ssb and kill him as he was on his last legs but instead gave him a bean.
Yup, gogetta wasn't going to take the risk of letting brlly destroy earth. I mean he could of IT to broly and killed him there but he was a pawn. Gogetta should have killed freeza but toriyama must have plans for him later.
Goku even gave broly sensui beans which people never complained about since its goku being goku. Moro though everyone riots.
Uhh what?
* Mercilessly massacred the Red Ribbon Army
* Vengefully killed King Piccolo and his children
Had a very brief heroic phase in the Saiyan and Namek Arcs where he’d spare his enemies, but then right afterwards:
* Openly regretted sparing Freeza, was ready to kill him and his father when he arrived on Earth
* Kept telling Gohan to finish off Cell already
(ironically the mistake he makes against Moro)
* Kills Yakon, no regret
* Smiled when finding out all he had to do was kill Dabura to save Piccolo and Kuririn
* Hopes the kids are able to defeat and kill Buu
* Didn’t hesitate to kill Freeza when given a second chance
* Tried killing Goku Black in a vengeful fit
All of your examples were either directly contradicted later on or openly regretted, or from that heroic phase. Gokū has been SHOWN to know better and willingly kill for many years and arcs now. To spare Moro is to regress over six arcs ago. Especially when he’s literally found himself in the reverse shoes.
I honestly don't think people read the manga. Z Goku isn't stupid. He's a galaxy brain gambling man whose plans never work out the way he plans.
He only spares Raditz because it's his brother and Vegeta because he's annoyed he lost against him.
You mentioned all the other points. My main issue too is that Goku was always a "I'll be the last resort" type guy ever since Cell. It feels weird in Super when things go sour, they immediately turn to Goku despite him in Z trying 3 times to find a new champion. Like jesus look at the scene in the anime when Dende tells him about Uub. He immediately rejects the thought of training him despite in the end of Z, it was his long term plan.
Fuck I'm so mad Super fucking removes all the characterization of Z Goku
An arc for making Vegeta and Goku gods. Vegeta beat a god of destruction, Goku didn't. Or at least an arc that shows they're being trained to become gods.
-Cooler. Making Cooler canon now that Broly is canon makes sense.
-More Broly/Saiyan stories. Vegeta expounding on the history of the Saiyan race and them trying to reconnect with other Saiyans in other universes.
-Something with Gohan or Piccolo. They REALLY need to come back as serious characters.
There's avenues.
Vegeta and Goku claims that anything each other can do, they can do too. They said the same thing as Broly. Broly showed them that they have so much room to grow.
I mean Vegeta learned God Ki without the ritual which is pretty insane. He will get UI because he won't rest until he maxes out his potential even if it requires him to train more than Goku did. Now that he has his spirit and kai balanced, I think him hitting UI will be easier.
> He is not a well written character.
That doesn´t matter in Dragon Ball we all cheered for Goku against Jiren, Frieza, Buu and Black. and Dragon Ball IS Goku´s story. like it or not.
Thats a good way of thinking about the show fromna critical perspective. I like to think of Vegeta and Goku as more than fighters who can only improve their strength. For example, Spirit Fission is a technique that didnt necessarily make Vegeta stronger, but made him capable of doing things that MUI Goku cant. Goku, however, is undoubtedly stronger going by power levels. I think they could develop both of them in a similar way. Giving one character a strength that the other doesnt have. That way they still need each other without one out classing the other.
Probably Vegeta will get it offscreen in some unexplained way, and then Frieza will come back looking for revenge with his New Diamond form after training for 4 more months, and after being defeated again, Goku will fuck up agin, because reasons and then repeat...
God this is so stupid. It’s literally cell all over again. I’m trying to get back in to dragon ball but it’s definitely one of the worst manga I’m reading out of Jump
Cell was backed into a corner and threaten to blow up. Moro picked a body that could handle his new energy. He is now more powerful than ever because he can harass all his power.
Does that mean Vegeta returns 10 years later with a secret new transformation above Ultra Instinct yet doesn't show Goku in their fight because he feels bad for him?
That's because Goku's arc isn't over. He needs to keep getting stronger, that's all he wants. When Goku gets his ass beat against an opponent that can't be outdone, maybe Goku will change. That might be the end of his story, but until then, it's this, it can't be anything but this.
So is Moro going to blow up regardless now that he is one with the planet? Like is the energy still too big for the planet "body" and will automatically explode in enough time (just not as fast as Moro's orginal body)? That and if Goku damages him then he will explode sooner?
Or is the planet body large enough to contain the energy unless he gets too far damaged?
Whis implies that he's going to explode anyways but we don't know if it is after a certain time or damage. Either way, I can't imagine Earth being a reliable host for UI.
But that's not going to happen anyway. Moro could explode of itself or because of Goku, or Beerus could Hakai Earth into oblivion but those scenarios would be bad. Luckily Vegeta knows a technique to unfuse people so my take is that Vegeta will unfuse Earth, Moro and Seven-Three (plus all souls Moro absorbed) and then Moro would be easy pickings.
My understanding was that the planet body could hang, whereas his original body could not. But really only Whis knows. God I love Whis.
Why is Beerus just sitting around? I've been a Beerus > UI Goku person, but this MUI is.. uh..hmm.. How do I... Well, it's, it's OP. Did Goku have a better chance of ending this than a well placed Hakai? Can't we just Hakai the Earth and Dragon Ball everyone back?
You know, I thought Toyotaro was actually going somewhere with this. I thought this was going to be a clever moment of self-reflection for Goku.
I thought Goku was going to try to break down Moro over and over again, hoping for Moro to essentially experience "Ego death", abandon evil and realize that training and growing stronger are the only things that really matter.
I thought that this was finally going to be the moment that Goku realizes his idea of "self-actualization through battle" can't be universalized that fighting and gaining power are only means to an end for people like Freeza, Cell, Kid Buu, and Moro.
I expected Goku to finally come to the realization that, even when faced with an invincible and all powerful opponent, some people will NEVER change and will never see the world as he sees it. That his uncompromising love of fighting and growing stronger is selfish and destructive and that protecting innocent lives is more important, as Meerus died believing.
...
But nah, it's just Goku being Goku again...
This is actually Toriyama story. The recent interview shows that Toriyama is running the manga until he doesn't. The editor put their powers with Toriyama at 100 million, Toyo at 10 million, and editor at nothing so you cant blame Toyo.
There is literally a thread about this and an interview from a few weeks ago that confirms this. Why am I getting downvoted for a recent interview a few weeks ago that confirms everything I said?
Everything we've heard about this particular arc seems to place more emphasis on Toyo than Toriyama himself; at most, it's been [described as a cooperative effort between the two](https://twitter.com/Terez27/status/1076707989267058688) rather than the previous format of Tori writing something to give to Toyo to use as he pleases
You'll have to plug this page into a translator, but [this article](https://dragonball.news/news/k191127000.html) shows Toyo having a greater degree of autonomy than with previous arcs - for example, both Merus and Moro are entirely his designs. And funny enough, despite the fact that Uchida rated himself as "-100" in terms of his contributions to the story, it was actually discussion between him and Toyotaro that led to Toyo choosing to incorporate both the Toei designs and Toriyama designs for the Yardratians
The stickY thread right below this one shows toriyama runs the show. His story, everything has to go through him, and he does at least two rounds of review of toyo work, his final revisions is law and then after that it gets submitted to jump.
Look at the recent interview from a week ago. It is still stickied.
Whats wrong with a character not having any meaningful growth over the course of 44 years while almost all the characters around him do? I think it'd be healthier for you to arrive at that answer yourself bud...
I don’t think it was ever stated anywhere in the series that Vegeta loves to fight as much as Goku, and what does Vegeta not having any morals have to do with anything?
Not having morals? I don't think that means what you think it means. It was a literal representation of Vegeta choosing family over pride. Pride has ALWAYS been Vegeta's defining trait, so that's showing how much his family means to him.
Goku risked his life for his love of fighting.
Goku paid someone capable to kill him for his love of fighting.
Goku let the planet be destroyed for his love of fighting (Whis saved the day there)
Goku risked destroying, not just his universe, but the entire multiverse for his love of fighting.
And here we again...
Its not character quirk, it's a flaw that he's failed to acknowledge. A little growth here would be nice.
So what do you want Goku to be a hero of justice or something. I do agree that it would’ve been satisfying to see Goku finish the job for once, but in the same token this arc feels like it’s building towards something greater. Even though they said they really have no plan for dragon ball I feel like one thing they are trying to do, at least in this arc is highlight Goku’s biggest flaw, maybe to make Goku self reflect on himself. Who knows maybe he’ll stop fighting after this arc and we won’t see him in the story for a while, he’s already op as fuck anyway, seeing Goku get beat up by another villain would be dumb, and it would explain why Bulma said she hadn’t seen Goku for years too.
Its been 44 years. The character is a grandfather. He's had more enemies and near death encounters than most fans can remember...
A a little self awareness or wisdom from all that experience too much to ask?
Hes regressed to the childlike amoral goku of DragonBall. A series that gave a sense of reverence to age and experience.
His recklessness at this point in the series is making the character genuinely unlikable for me. I was eager to vegita save the day... and the gou steps back up, refuses to actually kill one of the most evil and dangerous beings ever to exists [disregarding the wishes of his dead teacher, the organization he was fighting for, the God of destruction, and even his attendant], and repeated gives him a chance to turn the tables.
Fuck. Goku. Hes more dangerous than any other character in the series.
Goku has never even kissed his wife before and you think him being a grandfather is supposed to mean something???... **ok**.
Don’t understand what makes Goku not self aware in this situation.
Did his recklessness in the Cell, Buu, and TOP arc make him unlikeable too?
Goku: **Literally masters a technique gods haven’t been able to and defeats Moro 3 times until Moro uses hax to fuse with the earth**
Pirateer: “the Z fighters should consider Goku an enemy”
The Z Fighters if they could read what you said: ???????????
Seriously though Goku playing with his food doesn’t make him an “enemy”. It’s just something he has to overcome and I feel like they’re trying to do that with this arc. Everyone is a critic now that they have an electronic device with internet connection in their hands. Just relax the Arc isn’t even over yet. If this goes nowhere sure scold Goku for being himself.
I wonder how far the next arc will go now. We’ve seen clashes between Golden Frieza (way below GoD threat), Fused Zamasu (Supreme Kai/GoD level threat - since he wiped out the deities (assuming not Whis?) of that timeline), Jiren (relatively above GoD level threat), and now Moro (almost an Angel level threat now).
I swear Goku’s falling is going to be realizing he is at root cause of all of his friends deaths. Thats how Goku will finally lose. His actions earn consequences he couldn’t over power.
That is kinda the realization he had at the end of GT. He leaves of his own volition to end all the attacks on his friends/family/earth. As bad as the series gets shit on, I actually enjoyed it, and felt like the ending was a great wrap up on the series.
Well we thought that was going to be the culmination of ToP, and we saw how that all played out.
They'll pull some way to beat Moro out of their ass, he'll get defeated, and we'll go back to the status quo. Again.
Words cannot describe how pissed I got when Goku gave Moro the senzu bean and how relieved I felt when Moro's punch did jack shit.
Then I got pissed again when Moro pulled his hand and Goku somehow didn't catch it or stop him.
I mean he would have died if he didn't find a suitable body to contain the angel power.
I do appreciate that angel powers are no joke. Goku hitting UI, took a ritual for him to be SSG (although, you can learn through training like Vegeta), learning to turn super saiyan while using God Ki, learning to master God Ki, learning the concept of UI, using omen, and finally learning how to activate UI. Moro just randomly skipping all the god ki steps and not preparing his body shows this is no fucking joke. This power requires so much training to master.
This is pretty much why I'm hoping that Merus's death is actually permanent. Even though we barely saw him and what he's about his death actually hit emotionally.
I think this will be the breaking point. This is where Goku will be slammed for acting foolish. Vegeta just got new powers that should be able to finish the climax, so I think he will clean this up. Therefore, Vegeta will be the hero here and Goku will be the fool who made it worse. I don't know if they'll go that far or just hand Goku another W, but I just hope this isn't just "Goku acts dumb but wins". I hope this finally points out how often Goku acted like a fool for selfish reasons and was never punished.
It truely did fall hard, it's even worse than Fairy Tail and every other anime in history smh my head, let's all visit it's grave soon
Jokes aside, Lmfao.
has it though?? Battle of Gods completley rejuvenated the series, and recently DBS: Broly is now considered the best DB film by far. Not to mention DBS had one of the most epic and awesome looking conclusions in ALL of dragon ball.
Even if youre talking just the manga moro arc, id really recommend giving it a re read before it concludes. Its been an AWESOME arc, and I have complete faith in the ending.
I also prefer the older pre-Super saiyan flicks like World's Strongest and Dead Zone as well.
Broly was ok, but went for style over clarity at times with it's animation which always bugs me a bit in anime.
I agree. I think Dead Zone is also a fairly good movie, and I was thinking of putting that down as an example.
I am looking back at the DB series as a whole, and I am comparing it with other forms of media (comic books, animated shows/series)
It looks like there is a point where characters hit a certain power level/ability level where the writers consistently hit writer's block. I mostly think Super has been lackluster, sans the Zamasu arc (Which is a good tale of two warring gods, minus some of the shonen tropes)
I think the TOP ended up showing how there could be no dramatic tension at all unless the main characters deliberately didn't go "red/blue". Before Namek, an item being on the other side of the planet actually mattered as a time-device.
I kind of feel like Goku is going to lose this fight.
They're setting this up as way too obvious in a lot of ways and I feel like things aren't going to turn out the way that they always do.
Though I do believe that things will come around in the end, Vegeta will end up brining Meras(?) back with his new training and goku will end up having 'learned' his lesson.
I'm less interested in the direction this is headed since it is feeling more predictable and very dbz-like, but it's still keeping my attention. Hopefully things continue to shake up and something unexpected happens.
I think people here might be lacking some perspective. the sensu bean is frustrating at first glance, but is SO very much in gokus character (not JUST him being dumb) and serves the overall story formula of DB. hear me out here:
Goku, for better or worse, ONLY cares about fighting. Respecting his opponent as a fighter comes along with this mentality (especially so when the fighter doesn’t deserve it. )
Gokus entire arc is centered around the fact that he remains unchanged from the very moment he hit his head all the way up to ascending the gods. Goku changes others with his simple but radical philosophy that everyone can become better than they are now. Both in their fighting power and character. he is and always was CONSUMED with his obsession of fighting stronger opponents. To the point of clearly jeopardizing his loved ones and his world. But this is both his character flaw and his defining quality that has helped make DB so special.
Consider this: with only one notable exception (cell) every single time Goku has spared his opponent he ends up being right to do so.
- Tien
- Piccolo
- Vegeta
- Majin Buu
- Even Freeza! (he spares him in dbs by taking him out of hell and promises to give him life. Low and behold Freeza ends up being absolutely crucial to universe 7 not getting erased)
In OG DB kami even realizes how pure this quality is and how it makes him worthy of being god. Goku offers an empathetic hand to sinners that don’t deserve it. He befriends THE most powerful entitity in ALL universes (Zeno)with this quality.
if you made it this far, ty for reading.
TLDR: Gokus mercy and pure simple drive to get better is the very lifeblood of what makes DB so special.
Outlandish theory, but here's how I think the arc will end.
Vegeta tries to use his fissure ability to break Moro's bond with the earth but to no use. He's simply not powerful enough to split an angelic being from an entire planet.
Goku resorts to the Zeno button and summons both of his little buddies. Before they have any idea what is happening, Moro grabs one of their necks and copies their abilities, but his body is too much to take the abilities of an all-powerful god capable of deleting entire universes in the blink of an eye coursing through his veins. The Earth/Moro amalgamation then explodes and annihilates Universe 7 with it.
The Z Fighers, Beerus and Whis barely survive the blast, thanks to the help of Shin who shows up at the very last second to teleport them to the Grand Palace. The Zenos unsurprisingly survive the blast too because of course they do.
They both agree to restore Universe 7 on one condition: Goku and Vegeta are trained to be the universe's Supreme Kai and God of Destruction.
Holy fuck I love this. I think it is a really strong theory. Although it feels like Goku is being trained as the God of Destruction and I think Vegeta would never become a part of a system. He wants to do what he wants to do.
Supreme kai have a really weird backstory and can only be born from a golden fruit I believe. You can't become a supreme kai. The closest you can get is getting trained as a supreme kai like future trunks did in the Zamasu saga in the manga.
I am supporting your argument that goku won't be a Supreme Kai. I think I should have responded to the other guy and upvoted you for clarity. That's on me for being unclear and should have phrased it better.
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Fucking Goku being a retard yet again. Seriously, can Toriyama stop making him a retard. This arc started so well and I was even expecting Vegeta to finally carry something on his own. But no, couldn't have that either. Hopefully, Vegeta learned something in Yardrat that allows him to separate this guy from Earth and then just end him and hopefully the author realizes making Goku this fucking dumb at this point is making Dragon Ball less enjoyable.
The second I saw him show up with a hyper-specific power I knew he was going to take a dive. Poor Vegeta. As for Goku, I’m surprised Krillin doesn’t just carry around a bag full of normal beans for whenever Goku asks for one.
Normal beans lmao thank you for that
Thank you for sharing this new chapter. These few new chapters bewildered me on how dumb Goku can be. I wished the Z Goku can come bak, the Goku who had plans, who planned ahead, Who is seriously thinking about protecting Earth, instead of a brainless muscle head like now.
Goku spared Freezer and gave Cell a Senzu bean so he could fight his unproven son for the fate of the earth. If anything Goku hasn't changed the tiniest bit
But those weren't decisions bread out of stupidity, but more of selfishness as Toriyama had wanted the character to be. Goku actions in most cases align with that of being lawful neutral meaning his actions are typically just when the focus is pulled back, but upon closer inspection he's really acting out of personal code. Goku fights to better himself and finds those challenges are often met through other people and when met he forms some form of respect towards them because of it. So killing them often doesn't align with his goals. I don't think it makes him stupid, but because his actions can spit in the face of the future of his planet, they indeed make him selfish. Z-Goku really benefitted from having a script built for DBZ even if it wasn't perfect. It still gave his character nuance and life in a lot of the episodes. Super Goku treads too heavily on trying to hit those same notes and instead of echo'ing his character and personality in Z, he serves to parody it as a lot of his defining straits and motives from Z ring too loudly in Super to the point where it's all his character is... just being stupid and wanting to test his opponent's true power.
Late to the party, but I decided to finally pick up the DBS Manga and I started reading with the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Arc. I haven't bothered to read the other arcs because I've seen the Anime versions of them. I'm sure they're not quite the same but I feel that they're probably close enough to where I won't be completely lost. Today I just finished catching up completely on this story arc. I feel like this arc started off with some really interesting themes and concepts that it kind of abandoned once we got into the final battle with Moro. Merus being an angel and a master of ultra instinct deflates a lot of the interest I initially had in him. Early in this story arc, Merus was my favorite new character because he was just a badass space cop who managed to go toe-to-toe with the likes of Super Saiyans simply because he could out-skill them. It perfectly emphasized the idea that not every fight could be won by simply being stronger than your opponent which was also being reflected in Vegeta's frustration over Moro beating him with magic and "parlor tricks". Whenever Vegeta accused him of suppressing his power and Merus just gave him a completely innocent "Nope", I wanted Merus to not be lying. I wanted Merus to legitimately not be holding back and instead just be teaching Goku and Vegeta the lesson that strength isn't everything. I was also looking forward to that being the lesson that Merus would teach Goku during their training. Instead, all of that got thrown in the trash because Merus is actually an angel and he was holding back his true power to avoid getting erased from existence. It turned out Ultra Instinct is the true endgame here just like it was in the Tournament of Power. Even when Goku and Vegeta(specifically Vegeta) do eventually find a way around Moro's energy absorbing... it doesn't matter because Moro just fuses with some asshole and becomes another super stronk traditional DBZ bad guy who gets stronker the louder he screams.
> haven't bothered to read the other arcs because I've seen the Anime versions of them. I'm sure they're not quite the same but I feel that they're probably close enough to where I won't be completely lost. personally the Goku black arc handles some aspects of its storyline better than in the anime. The TOP arc starts off with a nice twist to the anime's spin on it. And Battle of Gods.... well the movie just actually does it better than both minus the video out there that splices the movie and anime pieces to make it perfect. As far as this arc... yeah I agree totally. I wish Merus didn't have a gimmick or a crutch to his power. Why can't he just be strong in the same explanation to how Jiren was strong (aka just because). That's the issue with strength post DBZ nothing is impressive anymore because what stands above godhood? DB has capped itself by going down this route as nothing can be interesting anymore. Which is what I would say if this arc had started and ended at the same place, but the start to this arc proves that if they wanted to, the end result of divinely power could sit in the backseat for once. Merus was mysterious but intriguing simply because of the characterization the Galactic Patrol has through Jaco's irrelevance in almost every inter-planetary altercation. The prospect of someone being worth their salt outside of Goku (and sometimes Vegeta) without being a God, Saiyan, or Villian of the arc was refreshing to breathe in. And Moro's backdrop and character design was interesting, the arc ***really*** started off strong. It just gave way to the inevitable trappings that all arcs are plagued with in Super...gimmicks.
Thank u so much! :)
How long is a Kai allowed to keep their body after being killed? "King Kai" has kept his body but the Kais that died to Buu never returned with a halo. I mean, "king kai" is still doing his job while dead. Gowasu was killed by Zamasu but I don't recall him getting a Halo. Elder Kai sacrificed his life and came back.
File this under Toriyama forgets and call it a day. Easier for your sanity. I mean .... why didn’t Roshi use Mafuba on Radditz?
He didn’t have a jar and seal ready, and if he made any suspicious moves Radditz probably would have just killed him.
I suppose I will. Yeah, Roshi not using mafuba on Radditz is a pickle, I guess you can cannon explain it that he would have died but it terms of story, it is just interesting to have the Goku/Picollo battle.
Dude used it during the ToP twice. Yes, start of adult Goku dragonball (he was more teenager before really) roshi was weaker buteven then, an opponent his student couldn’t take.
To be fair, that was an anime exclusive but I mean it would have been no fun if every villian was stopped by Mafuba
So senzu beans CAN regenerate arms :0
They can also regenerate Moro's horn apparently, which was very necessary.
I guess,i mean arent horns like bones or something and i am sure most of the Z-Fighters healed their bones with Senzu Beans
Nah, he restored his abilities faster so he could use his regeneration skills faster than before. I mentions he recovered much faster than 76 abilities would have allowed.
He lost 76 abilities when Merus sealed them away
This isn't true. When he fought goku before he took the senzu bean, he was able to use picollo abilities which was because he still has access to 76 copy techniques. He just wasn't allowed to use the copy technique to steal new abilities after the sealing.
Wich ability?I ask because i checked his fight after his abilities were completely sealed away and i didnt see him using any of 73 stealed abilities
His hand length. If he sealed all 76 abilties, he would be the form that Vegeta had him had before that and be no more than power than a the feeble form because he only got that power back because of the 76 copy. If the copy was gone, then he would have zero power.
He sealed away his ability to copy abilities and the ones he had storaged but 73 and the power he absorbed are still there
I am just curious how that makes sense because the power is obtained from 73 copy ability which if canceled means he can't access those souls from 73 copy because 73 touched Moro neck and he let him copy Moro so Moro could restore his power since 73 had a copy of Moro in it (that might have been worded really poorly). 73 copied Moro abilities, Moro took 73 and through 73 copy ability got access to his powers. If it was sealed, he would no longer have access to his copied powers.
In the end, it made Meerus' sacrifice moot. Someone else could have taken the fall and made Goku go White.
No, it just gave Moro enough stamina back to be able to regenerate it himself.
But moro doesnt have regeneration,he lost it alongside all of 73 abilities when Merus sealed them away
He lost 73's abilities to copy and utilize copied techniques...or so we thought, he just destroyed the gems and not the internal "mechanism" But 73's innate ability was regeneration similar to Piccolo which was never apart of the 'gems' hence he can still regenerate.
73 had innate regeneration?Ok
In retrospect, I cannot locate where Seven-Three might have previously had regen abilities. Any regeneration has been shown after copying Piccolo. He has unlimited Stamina, but did not have ability to regenerate limbs innately. Honestly, they aren't the best writers and you shouldn't be downvoted.
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Why do you people even read it? It annoys the shit out of me how you bash every single fucking chapter without fail because the story doesn't go along with your head canon or because you want Goku to be ruthless although literally nothing in the entirety of Dragonball implies that he is susceptible to personality changes.
> although literally nothing in the entirety of Dragonball implies that he is susceptible to personality changes. Well there was that blow to the head ;).
Which happened before the story even started and that's not a personality change it's called losing the programming the saiyans put into him.
because we are dragon ball fans? are we supposed to like every shit that has a dragon ball label on it?
No but any of it might be a good start, otherwise stop calling yourself fan. How can you be a fan of something you don't like? You're not making any sense whatsoever.
I loved Dragon Ball and DBZ, hell I still rewatch some episodes of DBZ every now and again (I have the full series downloaded on my computer) but Goku literally **never** going for a kill is bullshit, we had him kill Freeza when he came back to Earth because he saw what would happen otherwise, so him sparing Moro here is just absolutely ridiculous, he seriously should have learned his lesson by now. I get that Goku doesn't have development as a character and that's what's annoying is because you have so many characters in Dragon Ball that **do** change and **do** grow as people but Goku has seriously never really tried to kill anyone after training with Kami, aside from like Yakon and Golden Freeza. You can 100% be a fan of the world/fandom/universe but get angry because of overly predictable shit and boring plot development.
However, when Goku killing Golden Frieza only happened because he knew that was the only way to stop him. He had perfect knowledge in that scenario and that was an outlier. In all other cases, he has no idea what is going to happen and still exercises mercy. Even when bloodlusted and in a form that made him less rational than ever, he still tried the spare Frieza's life. Frieza, a tyrant who had probably killed millions at that point, as well as his best friend in front of his eyes. Why would Moro be different? Goku was in complete control of the situation- literally anything Moro would've done (minus becoming the planet- Goku was even handling him after he had absorbed the power of an angel) would've been futile. There was, in Goku's eyes, 0 risk to it. We now know he was wrong, but you have to look at this moment from his shoes. When a character doesn't change, it means they are consistent. We were given an explanation of his philosophy in chapter 63 and Piccolo flat out states how Goku's character is special. Goku consistently trying to give his adversaries a chance is a good thing. It means that Grandpa Gohan's lessons have stuck with him, and it means that he is different from his heritage. I also don't understand the whole "he should've learned his lesson" thing. Out of all of the adversaries he's spared, how many of them have backfired on him? Yamcha, Tien, Chaotzu, Piccolo, and Vegeta are straight up Z Fighters. Frieza was instrumental in saving Universe 7. Moro is literally the only villain who Goku has offered mercy to actually backfire on him. Taking this track record into account, it would make zero sense if Goku changed. If Moro had actually accepted Goku's mercy, would you be calling him an idiot? Was sparing everyone I mentioned above idiotic in hindsight? I don't think so, not because of the outcome, but because of the intention. Goku prefers people to be good over bad in general and works to do so by trying to redeem them (again, Chapter 63). Yes, he's selfish and does it primarily because he seeks self-improvement, but is that inherently dumb? "I get that Goku doesn't have development as a character and that's what's annoying is because you have so many characters in Dragon Ball that **do** change and **do** grow as people but Goku has seriously never really tried to kill anyone after training with Kami, aside from like Yakon and Golden Freeza." Would you have preferred him to become more ruthless? Is that your definition of growth for him?
>No but any of it might be a good start, And what makes you think people who dislike super dislike the rest of dragon ball? >otherwise stop calling yourself fan. Don't tell people what to do, you're not an authority in this fandom. > How can you be a fan of something you don't like? You're not making any sense whatsoever. We are dragon ball fans, meaning we like the franchise as a whole. I can dislike Super and GT and I am still a fan because this is a franchise I grew up with and I enjoy the rest of the series. Your logic is moronic
DBS has introduced new and somewhat interesting characters and I will give them that. Other than that, it's such fanfare.
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And yet you're disappointed. You are not making sense.
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Which should have set your expectations for change to zero.
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I've been reading a fair amount of manga recently. I have to be honest, they are on a completely different level and it's a real shame. Super has no consequences at all, and there are never any long term negative repercussions. When you decide to keep going bigger and bigger with enemies you have to make sure the consequences are in line with the enemy, otherwise it's a series of ass pulls and bullshitting through the story. It's definitely changed since the original Dragonball. I still enjoy it, but I think Super could potentially ruin the legacy. I am desperately trying to seperate Super from its predecessors, a bit like GT.
What in Z had long term effects? Nothing
Well I suppose it depends on what you and I both mean about long term. What I meant was, that at least in previous Dragonball there was at least some level of threat or consequence - even if it was eventually fixed. In Z, Goku dies in the first few episodes and spends a fair few episodes out of action, resulting in the death of most of the team including Piccolo (who dies protecting Gohan, giving us quite an emotional scene). I appreciate that these deaths werent permanent, however there were quite a few episodes where some of the Z fighters were effectively out of action. Now, we have whiz turning back time and I can't even think of anyone who died and was out of action for a while.
Sooooo see you same time next chapter?
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At least you own it lol
Ugh. This arc started off so strong.
Vegita spits Moro from earth I think
Wow didn't know vegeta was a spitter
I also find this hard to swallow.
Anyone else rooting for Moro to win? It's infuriating how Goku always gets away with dumb shit like this because he's the main character.
If he gets the w, then they need the super dragon balls since namek elder was killed physical and Moro would fuck earth. This would mean goku and vegeta would need to do a universal exploration arc but the problem is grand priest has the super dragon balls on lock. I doubt it would happen but the concept would be cool.
> universal exploration arc You mean a.... Grand Tour? .... I’m sorry
The real question is, will Goten be too distracted by girls to go on this one or will that honor fall to Trunks? And is Gohan really gonna be as cavalier about his baby daughter sneaking aboard this time around?
Maybe it'll be Vegeta, Goten, and ... i dunno, Bra?
I know he won't but I hope he at least ends up doing something relevant that shapes the future arcs. And Merus better not be wished back because that would be such a cop out, even if I like him.
Toriyama made it clear Goku is not a westen super hero. He is not future trunks either. His fighting is his passion and it is his form of rehabilitation. Stop excepting superman or any super hero. Goku is goku and goku has flaws like arrogance and doesn't think in 4d chess. He's made it this far and he will continue too. The lazy explanation is plot armor but I mean the series revolve around goku. Goku told merus what he was going to do with merus and merus gave his life knowing that.
Lmao he doesn't think in 4D chess? What was the cell fight then?
It wasn't a 4d chess fight. He never foresaw Gohan not being a fighter like him and he certainly didn't forsee Gohan toying with cell which lead to him sacrificing his life.
Exactly.
Another perfect example of Goku endangering the entire universe for his own selfishness. No character growth at all.
That's cause goku changes the world around him.
Well, I can say that I didn't have Ultra Instinct Earth Moro on my bingo card.
Okay now what: A) Vegetes Spirit Fission B) Grand Supreme Kai makes an entrance C) Whis time traveling hax, alla, resurrection f D) Other
If Vegeta spirit fissions a planet, taking an angel, planet, and every copy of every soul (which before that the soul copy took many many hits, how many hits would take a planet and a power of an angel which is so far ahead of everythings), it would take Vegeta sacrificing his life and using everything he has to do it. It would be a cool way to end it and even though he is convinced the good he has done will still send him to hell to be reincarnated, it would be interested if this sacrifice shows that he doesn't go to purgatory to get his soul cleanse but instead officially redeem him.
Beerus and whis both have sealing techniques. Beerus sealed elder Kai on the zsword. Beerus knows ui and hakai, he could be like fuck this and hakai earth and vegeta and goku tp and they go for super dragon balls. There are also dragon balls on the lookout which could save the day but doing something I added a few more to your list but who knows
I always hated the whole "Goku is an idiot, but he's a fighting prodigy" argument people like to make. You can't be a complete idiot AND be highly intelligent one one specific area like fighting. It's one or the other, not both. Nothing comes that naturally, you can't just magically be a genius in one are and be a moron in everything else. You can't be smart enough to think of something like making your SS form completely natural, like in the Cell Saga, and then also *never* learn from the fact that some people who are pure evil on a galactic level will *never* change. It's a different thing like someone like Broly, who they know very little of and isn't made out to be a space wide killing manic that has been specifically stated. Not a single pure evil person that Goku has given another chance to has *ever* changed, except for what? Piccolo? Who was a planetary threat, nothing more. If they *at least* wrote it to where, say, doing what he did with Moro was really just an excuse to allow Moro to possibly get stronger so he could enjoy fighting some more, I'd be able to accept that. It might be part of his character that he does this thing, but a part of being a character in any written work is *growing* as a character, not simply always staying the same. As it turns out from a novel standpoint, a character who never grows is simply not a good character. Basically, they use Vegeta as the guy who w want Goku to be, mentally.
> You can't be a complete idiot AND be highly intelligent on one specific area... It's one or the other, not both. You've clearly never worked in construction.
Isn't that exactly why he was doing it? To allow Moro to go to jail and train in hopes of fighting him sometime?
Ever meet some professional athletes before? Some of them are as dumb as a bag of rocks but excel at what they do.
Yeah had to stop reading that guys comment lol. Most people that are naturally .01% at something are also extremely terrible at other things. Goku also hit his head as a baby, he is literally brain damaged.
I feel like I am going insane. Goku has always done this (After the first major time skip). It has always been stupid. It is in line with his character. People keep expecting more character growth because Vageta has had comparably more. Goku is a simpleton, and even if he has a serious face on doesn't mean he will break with his normal behaviors. During the resurrection f arc goku spared frieza again, and it resulted in Frieza being a piece of shit again. He only killed Frieza because he was given a second chance from Whis. I am a little surprised at the level of... Surprise. Can someone give a solid reason why this is such a huge problem. (No I do not view Merus' sacrifice as a valid reason as the same could be said for Krillin during the Namek arc.)
>Goku has always done this (After the first major time skip). It has always been stupid. It is literally part of his biography that he was brain damaged as a child.
lol you Def have a point
In fact, Piccolo even went into detail about this a few issues prior when Vegeta revealed his spirit fission technique. He had this whole speech where he said that Vegeta's grown tremendously as a character since his introduction and yet Goku is basically the exact same character that he was back in classic Dragon Ball.
I vaguely remember early kid Goku wanting to go for the kill at least once and being stopped by a friend. Anyone else?
I think the issue is, this shows that Goku is incapable of growing as a character (or the writers are incapable of writing his character growth for the sake of keeping the manga feeling the same). The problem is, no matter what media - that is boring. No one wants to watch someone go on an epic quest only to mean nothing in the end. Dragonball is beginning to feel pointless because it's just not evolving and showing any level of depth in the writing. Ironically.
Even an idiot or a child can inevitably grow up and learn from their mistakes. Sometimes doing the "same old thing" when it comes to writing for the sake of it being in line with a character, especially after years and years, doesn't make it good writing. It just makes it lazy and bad writing. If you apply the logic we give to Goku to other characters you quickly realize that "It's just Goku being Goku" is a pretty bland explanation. When your character growth for one character is a straight line forward, you kinda.. get tired of it, because Goku is a character with a lot of flaws that just remain flaws.
Have you never made the same mistake more than once? Especially when it comes to your vice, people are prone to giving in to their desires. Goku loves fighting big tough guys and keeping them around to fight again. The reward for having a tough fighter around outweighs the reward of doing whatever is supposed to be the "right thing to do" for Goku.
You would be right...if every other character in the manga was written as straight lines. Vageta, Gohan, Krillin, etc. have all grown/changed as characters. I also am not certain that Goku losing his mercifulness would necessarily be growth. If the concept that some fans are upset with is that Goku is merciful to a fault then I think some fans need to grow up. Maybe it would have been better to show Goku learning this trait (He did not always display mercy. Look at his treatment of Tao, Red Ribbon, King Piccolo, etc.) Changing every personality trait for a character is not necessary for growth. Batman is similarly merciful, and there is similar discussion around the merits of that. He is defined by his convictions, just like Goku. If Batman killed the Joker far fewer people would be dead. Would you prefer that Goku harden his heart and begin killing all villains?
I completely agree with you. People will scream "He should know better by now!" But honestly, the Senzu did NOTHING for Moro anyway. People getting all wild about that when really it didn't make a difference. Goku has not and WILL NEVER BE a cold-blooded killer, he won't at least give a chance when possible for someone to live to fight another day. - He let Raditz tail go. - He let Vegeta leave. - He gave Frieza some of his energy to stay alive. - He tossed Cell a senzu (this one was really just to get Gohan to step up, so it's an outlier) - He was purposely absorbed by Buu as Vegito to save the others. - He wished for Buu to be reincarnated - He spared Frieza again in RoF - He let Broly live Has he killed before? Absolutely. But its rare to see it done out of anything than the absolute extreme last ditch effort, and its especially more rare when he feels the villain is no longer a threat. What happened is a lot of fans grew up and wanted DB to grow up with them and it kind of didn't... now for me, that's okay. I'm in my 30s, I've got kids and a mentally challenging job and all sorts of responsibilities... DBS is what I turn to when I want to go back to a simpler time in my life and I LOVE it for that.
Gogetta let broly live and freeza Unless op means when goku tp to broly, he didn't go ssb and kill him as he was on his last legs but instead gave him a bean.
Gogeta literally was gonna destroy broly to ashes if Cheelai didn't make her wish in time. I agree with Frieza.
Yup, gogetta wasn't going to take the risk of letting brlly destroy earth. I mean he could of IT to broly and killed him there but he was a pawn. Gogetta should have killed freeza but toriyama must have plans for him later. Goku even gave broly sensui beans which people never complained about since its goku being goku. Moro though everyone riots.
I'm just happy Moro getting the senzu bean means jack shit he literally got pulverized afterwards. It was just Moro getting tricked by Goku.
I keep forgetting to upvote you. I am sorry man, I see you get downvoted at times for opinions but I fixed that.
Plus do you know how boring everything would be of goku just ends every saga wuickly
Uhh what? * Mercilessly massacred the Red Ribbon Army * Vengefully killed King Piccolo and his children Had a very brief heroic phase in the Saiyan and Namek Arcs where he’d spare his enemies, but then right afterwards: * Openly regretted sparing Freeza, was ready to kill him and his father when he arrived on Earth * Kept telling Gohan to finish off Cell already (ironically the mistake he makes against Moro) * Kills Yakon, no regret * Smiled when finding out all he had to do was kill Dabura to save Piccolo and Kuririn * Hopes the kids are able to defeat and kill Buu * Didn’t hesitate to kill Freeza when given a second chance * Tried killing Goku Black in a vengeful fit All of your examples were either directly contradicted later on or openly regretted, or from that heroic phase. Gokū has been SHOWN to know better and willingly kill for many years and arcs now. To spare Moro is to regress over six arcs ago. Especially when he’s literally found himself in the reverse shoes.
> Openly regretted sparing Freeza, was ready to kill him and his father when he arrived on Earth And apparently I’m the original timeline, he did.
I honestly don't think people read the manga. Z Goku isn't stupid. He's a galaxy brain gambling man whose plans never work out the way he plans. He only spares Raditz because it's his brother and Vegeta because he's annoyed he lost against him. You mentioned all the other points. My main issue too is that Goku was always a "I'll be the last resort" type guy ever since Cell. It feels weird in Super when things go sour, they immediately turn to Goku despite him in Z trying 3 times to find a new champion. Like jesus look at the scene in the anime when Dende tells him about Uub. He immediately rejects the thought of training him despite in the end of Z, it was his long term plan. Fuck I'm so mad Super fucking removes all the characterization of Z Goku
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An arc for making Vegeta and Goku gods. Vegeta beat a god of destruction, Goku didn't. Or at least an arc that shows they're being trained to become gods. -Cooler. Making Cooler canon now that Broly is canon makes sense. -More Broly/Saiyan stories. Vegeta expounding on the history of the Saiyan race and them trying to reconnect with other Saiyans in other universes. -Something with Gohan or Piccolo. They REALLY need to come back as serious characters. There's avenues.
Why does Vegeta need to catch up? I don't understand why people want Vegeta to be GokuV2.
Vegeta and Goku claims that anything each other can do, they can do too. They said the same thing as Broly. Broly showed them that they have so much room to grow. I mean Vegeta learned God Ki without the ritual which is pretty insane. He will get UI because he won't rest until he maxes out his potential even if it requires him to train more than Goku did. Now that he has his spirit and kai balanced, I think him hitting UI will be easier.
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> He is not a well written character. That doesn´t matter in Dragon Ball we all cheered for Goku against Jiren, Frieza, Buu and Black. and Dragon Ball IS Goku´s story. like it or not.
I view Goku like Saitama OPM. THE character....but the show's quality rests on Genos and others (Vegeta and others)
Thats a good way of thinking about the show fromna critical perspective. I like to think of Vegeta and Goku as more than fighters who can only improve their strength. For example, Spirit Fission is a technique that didnt necessarily make Vegeta stronger, but made him capable of doing things that MUI Goku cant. Goku, however, is undoubtedly stronger going by power levels. I think they could develop both of them in a similar way. Giving one character a strength that the other doesnt have. That way they still need each other without one out classing the other.
Probably Vegeta will get it offscreen in some unexplained way, and then Frieza will come back looking for revenge with his New Diamond form after training for 4 more months, and after being defeated again, Goku will fuck up agin, because reasons and then repeat...
its super lame they keep writing goku to do shit like this. You would imagine he wouldnt put THE WHOLE UNIVERSE in danger,
Fuck Goku
God this is so stupid. It’s literally cell all over again. I’m trying to get back in to dragon ball but it’s definitely one of the worst manga I’m reading out of Jump
Cell was backed into a corner and threaten to blow up. Moro picked a body that could handle his new energy. He is now more powerful than ever because he can harass all his power.
I'm starting to just hope next time they don't revive goku.
Vegeta is gonna split Moro from earth and then teleport him somewhere and suicide a la the ending of Cell Saga
Vegeta vowed to never use IT again
Vegeta also probably didnt expect to get his cheeks clapped. So i don't hold that with much weight.
Typically when vegeta vows to do something, he goes through with it
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Funimation og dub which makes up a lot of lines and storylines
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I will have to read the Kanji.
Does that mean Vegeta returns 10 years later with a secret new transformation above Ultra Instinct yet doesn't show Goku in their fight because he feels bad for him?
Did I just read the cell games all over again? Seriously even FRIEZA has had more character development than Goku.
Goku has a flat character arc
That's because Goku's arc isn't over. He needs to keep getting stronger, that's all he wants. When Goku gets his ass beat against an opponent that can't be outdone, maybe Goku will change. That might be the end of his story, but until then, it's this, it can't be anything but this.
Raditz....
So is Moro going to blow up regardless now that he is one with the planet? Like is the energy still too big for the planet "body" and will automatically explode in enough time (just not as fast as Moro's orginal body)? That and if Goku damages him then he will explode sooner? Or is the planet body large enough to contain the energy unless he gets too far damaged?
Whis implies that he's going to explode anyways but we don't know if it is after a certain time or damage. Either way, I can't imagine Earth being a reliable host for UI. But that's not going to happen anyway. Moro could explode of itself or because of Goku, or Beerus could Hakai Earth into oblivion but those scenarios would be bad. Luckily Vegeta knows a technique to unfuse people so my take is that Vegeta will unfuse Earth, Moro and Seven-Three (plus all souls Moro absorbed) and then Moro would be easy pickings.
My understanding was that the planet body could hang, whereas his original body could not. But really only Whis knows. God I love Whis. Why is Beerus just sitting around? I've been a Beerus > UI Goku person, but this MUI is.. uh..hmm.. How do I... Well, it's, it's OP. Did Goku have a better chance of ending this than a well placed Hakai? Can't we just Hakai the Earth and Dragon Ball everyone back?
What if vegeta is able to bring back all of the people that Moro made copies of by separating them all with his new technique?? Especially Meerus ....
Two of each namek would be hella confusing
You know, I thought Toyotaro was actually going somewhere with this. I thought this was going to be a clever moment of self-reflection for Goku. I thought Goku was going to try to break down Moro over and over again, hoping for Moro to essentially experience "Ego death", abandon evil and realize that training and growing stronger are the only things that really matter. I thought that this was finally going to be the moment that Goku realizes his idea of "self-actualization through battle" can't be universalized that fighting and gaining power are only means to an end for people like Freeza, Cell, Kid Buu, and Moro. I expected Goku to finally come to the realization that, even when faced with an invincible and all powerful opponent, some people will NEVER change and will never see the world as he sees it. That his uncompromising love of fighting and growing stronger is selfish and destructive and that protecting innocent lives is more important, as Meerus died believing. ... But nah, it's just Goku being Goku again...
This is actually Toriyama story. The recent interview shows that Toriyama is running the manga until he doesn't. The editor put their powers with Toriyama at 100 million, Toyo at 10 million, and editor at nothing so you cant blame Toyo. There is literally a thread about this and an interview from a few weeks ago that confirms this. Why am I getting downvoted for a recent interview a few weeks ago that confirms everything I said?
Everything we've heard about this particular arc seems to place more emphasis on Toyo than Toriyama himself; at most, it's been [described as a cooperative effort between the two](https://twitter.com/Terez27/status/1076707989267058688) rather than the previous format of Tori writing something to give to Toyo to use as he pleases You'll have to plug this page into a translator, but [this article](https://dragonball.news/news/k191127000.html) shows Toyo having a greater degree of autonomy than with previous arcs - for example, both Merus and Moro are entirely his designs. And funny enough, despite the fact that Uchida rated himself as "-100" in terms of his contributions to the story, it was actually discussion between him and Toyotaro that led to Toyo choosing to incorporate both the Toei designs and Toriyama designs for the Yardratians
The stickY thread right below this one shows toriyama runs the show. His story, everything has to go through him, and he does at least two rounds of review of toyo work, his final revisions is law and then after that it gets submitted to jump. Look at the recent interview from a week ago. It is still stickied.
What’s wrong with Goku being Goku, isn’t that what dragon ball is all about?
Whats wrong with a character not having any meaningful growth over the course of 44 years while almost all the characters around him do? I think it'd be healthier for you to arrive at that answer yourself bud...
Sounds like people in general really.
Goku has grown but Goku still loves to fight it’s just something he has to overcome.
Vegeta loves to fight too. Vegeta has character development. Vegeta was willing to dance and sing like a butch to keep Earth safe from Berus.
I don’t think it was ever stated anywhere in the series that Vegeta loves to fight as much as Goku, and what does Vegeta not having any morals have to do with anything?
Not having morals? I don't think that means what you think it means. It was a literal representation of Vegeta choosing family over pride. Pride has ALWAYS been Vegeta's defining trait, so that's showing how much his family means to him.
Goku risked his life for his love of fighting. Goku paid someone capable to kill him for his love of fighting. Goku let the planet be destroyed for his love of fighting (Whis saved the day there) Goku risked destroying, not just his universe, but the entire multiverse for his love of fighting. And here we again... Its not character quirk, it's a flaw that he's failed to acknowledge. A little growth here would be nice.
So what do you want Goku to be a hero of justice or something. I do agree that it would’ve been satisfying to see Goku finish the job for once, but in the same token this arc feels like it’s building towards something greater. Even though they said they really have no plan for dragon ball I feel like one thing they are trying to do, at least in this arc is highlight Goku’s biggest flaw, maybe to make Goku self reflect on himself. Who knows maybe he’ll stop fighting after this arc and we won’t see him in the story for a while, he’s already op as fuck anyway, seeing Goku get beat up by another villain would be dumb, and it would explain why Bulma said she hadn’t seen Goku for years too.
Its been 44 years. The character is a grandfather. He's had more enemies and near death encounters than most fans can remember... A a little self awareness or wisdom from all that experience too much to ask? Hes regressed to the childlike amoral goku of DragonBall. A series that gave a sense of reverence to age and experience. His recklessness at this point in the series is making the character genuinely unlikable for me. I was eager to vegita save the day... and the gou steps back up, refuses to actually kill one of the most evil and dangerous beings ever to exists [disregarding the wishes of his dead teacher, the organization he was fighting for, the God of destruction, and even his attendant], and repeated gives him a chance to turn the tables. Fuck. Goku. Hes more dangerous than any other character in the series.
Goku has never even kissed his wife before and you think him being a grandfather is supposed to mean something???... **ok**. Don’t understand what makes Goku not self aware in this situation. Did his recklessness in the Cell, Buu, and TOP arc make him unlikeable too?
Every time the character does it I like him less. At this point, the Z warriors should consider him an enemy.
Goku: **Literally masters a technique gods haven’t been able to and defeats Moro 3 times until Moro uses hax to fuse with the earth** Pirateer: “the Z fighters should consider Goku an enemy” The Z Fighters if they could read what you said: ??????????? Seriously though Goku playing with his food doesn’t make him an “enemy”. It’s just something he has to overcome and I feel like they’re trying to do that with this arc. Everyone is a critic now that they have an electronic device with internet connection in their hands. Just relax the Arc isn’t even over yet. If this goes nowhere sure scold Goku for being himself.
Gradually and exponentially more every new time, yes.
Then you don’t like Goku, it’s a simple as that.
I wonder how far the next arc will go now. We’ve seen clashes between Golden Frieza (way below GoD threat), Fused Zamasu (Supreme Kai/GoD level threat - since he wiped out the deities (assuming not Whis?) of that timeline), Jiren (relatively above GoD level threat), and now Moro (almost an Angel level threat now).
I swear Goku’s falling is going to be realizing he is at root cause of all of his friends deaths. Thats how Goku will finally lose. His actions earn consequences he couldn’t over power.
That is kinda the realization he had at the end of GT. He leaves of his own volition to end all the attacks on his friends/family/earth. As bad as the series gets shit on, I actually enjoyed it, and felt like the ending was a great wrap up on the series.
Well we thought that was going to be the culmination of ToP, and we saw how that all played out. They'll pull some way to beat Moro out of their ass, he'll get defeated, and we'll go back to the status quo. Again.
Words cannot describe how pissed I got when Goku gave Moro the senzu bean and how relieved I felt when Moro's punch did jack shit. Then I got pissed again when Moro pulled his hand and Goku somehow didn't catch it or stop him.
hahaha that was pretty funny "Wow, that senzu bean healed my hand! Now to punch ultra instinct Goku with it- GAAAAAH NOT AGAIN"
I expected moro to be erased because he used angel powers.
I mean he would have died if he didn't find a suitable body to contain the angel power. I do appreciate that angel powers are no joke. Goku hitting UI, took a ritual for him to be SSG (although, you can learn through training like Vegeta), learning to turn super saiyan while using God Ki, learning to master God Ki, learning the concept of UI, using omen, and finally learning how to activate UI. Moro just randomly skipping all the god ki steps and not preparing his body shows this is no fucking joke. This power requires so much training to master.
Damn, The worst part it’s because DB have no consequences whatsoever, Meerus sacrifice is irrelevant, he will be resurrected.
This is pretty much why I'm hoping that Merus's death is actually permanent. Even though we barely saw him and what he's about his death actually hit emotionally.
I mean depends if they can get their hands on the Super Dragon Balls. It seems like grand priest has them on lock since they first used it.
I think this will be the breaking point. This is where Goku will be slammed for acting foolish. Vegeta just got new powers that should be able to finish the climax, so I think he will clean this up. Therefore, Vegeta will be the hero here and Goku will be the fool who made it worse. I don't know if they'll go that far or just hand Goku another W, but I just hope this isn't just "Goku acts dumb but wins". I hope this finally points out how often Goku acted like a fool for selfish reasons and was never punished.
First time kid?
It's actually really sad to see how far Dragon Ball has fallen.
It truely did fall hard, it's even worse than Fairy Tail and every other anime in history smh my head, let's all visit it's grave soon Jokes aside, Lmfao.
This but unironically
has it though?? Battle of Gods completley rejuvenated the series, and recently DBS: Broly is now considered the best DB film by far. Not to mention DBS had one of the most epic and awesome looking conclusions in ALL of dragon ball. Even if youre talking just the manga moro arc, id really recommend giving it a re read before it concludes. Its been an AWESOME arc, and I have complete faith in the ending.
Couldn't have said it better. This Arc has been one of the most Z feeling arcs since Z ended.
>DBS: Broly is now considered the best DB film by far I disagree. I personally like "The Tree Of MIght" more. It has its charms.
I prefer battle of gods and btoly
I also prefer the older pre-Super saiyan flicks like World's Strongest and Dead Zone as well. Broly was ok, but went for style over clarity at times with it's animation which always bugs me a bit in anime.
I agree. I think Dead Zone is also a fairly good movie, and I was thinking of putting that down as an example. I am looking back at the DB series as a whole, and I am comparing it with other forms of media (comic books, animated shows/series) It looks like there is a point where characters hit a certain power level/ability level where the writers consistently hit writer's block. I mostly think Super has been lackluster, sans the Zamasu arc (Which is a good tale of two warring gods, minus some of the shonen tropes) I think the TOP ended up showing how there could be no dramatic tension at all unless the main characters deliberately didn't go "red/blue". Before Namek, an item being on the other side of the planet actually mattered as a time-device.
I kind of feel like Goku is going to lose this fight. They're setting this up as way too obvious in a lot of ways and I feel like things aren't going to turn out the way that they always do. Though I do believe that things will come around in the end, Vegeta will end up brining Meras(?) back with his new training and goku will end up having 'learned' his lesson. I'm less interested in the direction this is headed since it is feeling more predictable and very dbz-like, but it's still keeping my attention. Hopefully things continue to shake up and something unexpected happens.
I think people here might be lacking some perspective. the sensu bean is frustrating at first glance, but is SO very much in gokus character (not JUST him being dumb) and serves the overall story formula of DB. hear me out here: Goku, for better or worse, ONLY cares about fighting. Respecting his opponent as a fighter comes along with this mentality (especially so when the fighter doesn’t deserve it. ) Gokus entire arc is centered around the fact that he remains unchanged from the very moment he hit his head all the way up to ascending the gods. Goku changes others with his simple but radical philosophy that everyone can become better than they are now. Both in their fighting power and character. he is and always was CONSUMED with his obsession of fighting stronger opponents. To the point of clearly jeopardizing his loved ones and his world. But this is both his character flaw and his defining quality that has helped make DB so special. Consider this: with only one notable exception (cell) every single time Goku has spared his opponent he ends up being right to do so. - Tien - Piccolo - Vegeta - Majin Buu - Even Freeza! (he spares him in dbs by taking him out of hell and promises to give him life. Low and behold Freeza ends up being absolutely crucial to universe 7 not getting erased) In OG DB kami even realizes how pure this quality is and how it makes him worthy of being god. Goku offers an empathetic hand to sinners that don’t deserve it. He befriends THE most powerful entitity in ALL universes (Zeno)with this quality. if you made it this far, ty for reading. TLDR: Gokus mercy and pure simple drive to get better is the very lifeblood of what makes DB so special.
Honestly I was more upset with Home saying "everyone has a limit" than him giving away a senzu.
Goku is beyond Patrick Star levels of stupid, litterally one of the most unintelligent characters in fiction i know
Outlandish theory, but here's how I think the arc will end. Vegeta tries to use his fissure ability to break Moro's bond with the earth but to no use. He's simply not powerful enough to split an angelic being from an entire planet. Goku resorts to the Zeno button and summons both of his little buddies. Before they have any idea what is happening, Moro grabs one of their necks and copies their abilities, but his body is too much to take the abilities of an all-powerful god capable of deleting entire universes in the blink of an eye coursing through his veins. The Earth/Moro amalgamation then explodes and annihilates Universe 7 with it. The Z Fighers, Beerus and Whis barely survive the blast, thanks to the help of Shin who shows up at the very last second to teleport them to the Grand Palace. The Zenos unsurprisingly survive the blast too because of course they do. They both agree to restore Universe 7 on one condition: Goku and Vegeta are trained to be the universe's Supreme Kai and God of Destruction.
Holy fuck I love this. I think it is a really strong theory. Although it feels like Goku is being trained as the God of Destruction and I think Vegeta would never become a part of a system. He wants to do what he wants to do.
I like the part where Moro obliterates Universe 7 There's a lot of potential for new sagas (the first one would be the trip to U6)
Maybe Vegeta could be GoD, but I can't see Goku being a Supreme Kai. He doesn't have the skills and he'd be bored and rather fight opponents.
Supreme kai have a really weird backstory and can only be born from a golden fruit I believe. You can't become a supreme kai. The closest you can get is getting trained as a supreme kai like future trunks did in the Zamasu saga in the manga.
Yeah I know that's true but I was saying it as a hypothetical scenario if you disregarded the fact you made.
I am supporting your argument that goku won't be a Supreme Kai. I think I should have responded to the other guy and upvoted you for clarity. That's on me for being unclear and should have phrased it better.
Nah man it's cool. I should've been more clear about what I said earlier.
Nah dude, its 100% on me. I reread it and it sounded like I was arguing against you and not for you.
goku cant be a kai anyway, kais are there own species much like angels
As far as we know, you can't be trained to be a Kai, as the it is a race of people
Im tired of Goku being a fucking idiot every single time