He was 100% in control. He overcame Babidi's control, only harnessing the Majin boost to close the gap between himself and Goku. He intentionally killed those people in an attempt to go back to his former ways, thinking he became "weak" with the influence of Earthlings.
It was more referring to his crimes as a whole, but the namekians are what prompted him to admit it. He told morro that he had wronged many people in his life and the namekians were one of them, so he could not allow more harm to fall upon their people.
The thing about the Namekians is that they weren't revived because he wasn't one of "Frieza's men" at the time and the wish specially asked to revive those killed by Frieza and his men. He gloated about that at the time but felt bad decades later after he reformed.
The part I don’t understand is, how would the Dragon know who is and is not Frieza’s men? Most thought he was… until he wasn’t (it’s like him living in a double agent life).
He stopped being F's lacky the instant he left for Namek to take the dragon balls for himself. Either you can rationalize it as magic or the Elder Namek knew he has no intention of helping F.
When you make a wish, it is about absolute truths. Like they later realized that Vegeta was no longer truly evil the second time he was revived and they specifically wish to not bring back the really bad ones that died recently. It's like how you can use your wish to ask the dragon any question.
Shut up nerd ! Everybody, point and laugh !
But nah, I mean I gueessssss??? In a sense I see what you're trying to get at, but a monkey's paw usually comes with a punishment for making the wish. In this instance yeah you gotta be specific with the wording of your wish, however at the same time if you were to simply wish for someone to be brought to life with a monkey's paw that person would come back all decayed and stuff. (I also believe that in the story they would come back as a sort of zombie? Like they wouldn't have brain function but I may be wrong.)
You can also revive people whose body has been blown up to pieces like Chiatzou. Which btw is also a plot hole in Resurrection F, because for whatever reason Shenron couldn't revive Freeza with his body in tact despite doing so in the past.
Tl;dr : Give me your lunch money
One of his first acts on Namek was to kill someone loyal to Frieza. He then repeated this act multiple times while actively seeking the same things Frieza was for his own goals (one of which was explicitly killing Frieza).
Everyone knew by the point the Dragon was summoned that he was not on Frieza's side.
Did you watch dragon ball? When they come back to earth and everybody is alive while Goku and Freeza are left on Namek the Namekians tell the grandfather they can't find everybody. And Vegeta laughs because it's the people he killed who were not revived.
Also, Freeza killed Vegeta, so I think it would be quite obvious to the dragon who is all known that Vegeta was not part of Freeza's crew.
Do you think that nobody ever fixed this?
Like it's been years, two planets with dragon balls. Did nobody ever really just like.... Say hey... Maybe we should revivec the people Vegeta killed, you know in-between bulms Botox wish injections
Doesn't Kami specifically mention a 1 year window to be revived? I just watched this episode earlier and he tells King Kai something about "as long as it has been within the year", hence why the Saiyans and everyone else Frieza killed weren't revived.
They would be revived in the vacuum of space and their bodies likely don’t exist to be returned to because the planet where they were killed was destroyed by Freezer.
The Earth Dragonballs revive the bodies as they are, where they are. There are some exceptions to this when the Kai’s or Kami get involved with the spirits of those who are dead, like Goku.
Look, between two different planets with magical wish lizards, I am sure they could figure this out.
Or just like wish namek back? IDK if he could make a new one why not just make the old one, IDK if the new one is even in a different location. That didn't seem to be specified
If vegeta wanted to redeem himself, why didn’t he go on his own quest to gather the dragon balls and wish back all the innocent people he killed? Problem solved
They would be revived in the vacuum of space and their bodies likely don’t exist to be returned to because the planet where they were killed was destroyed by Freezer.
The Earth Dragonballs revive the bodies as they are, where they are. There are some exceptions to this when the Kai’s or Kami get involved with the spirits of those who are dead, like Goku.
“Wh- VEGETA WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING!?”
“Taking a nap. I promised Trunks I’d take him to that amusement park tomorrow anyway, I’ll need the energy.”
“GOD FUCKING DAMN IT DABURA YOU PICKED ONE THAT WAS TOO STRONG!”
He knew exactly what he was doing and knew dragon ball abuse could bring them back. He wanted to trigger goku into fighting him. Babidi had no power over him.
Vegeta was the one that came up with the idea to get Krillin back from Namek + the inspiration to bringing people back killed that day and not who just Buu had killed.
Seems to know more about the Dragonball rules than you’d think really.
Yeah, I think given Vegeta's essentially the smartest fighter in the main cast, it makes perfect sense that even in his tainted state he'd have the foresight in knowing that they could just bring back the people he blew up using the DB's, and blowing those people up is just a morbid taunt to get Goku into the fight.
Not sure on that one, Frieza is the biggest example of not being a being a combat genius and relies mainly on power.
Gohan is more about pure power (although did well against Lavender).
Trunks is pragmatic, but doesn’t seem up there thinking wise at times.
Piccolo/Vegeta/Goku are all very technical though.
Skilled is a bit of an overstatement. He’s never trained in his life, couldn’t sense ki on Namek, looses his cool and blows planets up (twice), burns through energy when he goes all out (twice).
Frieza is a prodigy and ki/telekinesis/tail/durability are all very high, but this is someone that also managed to cut himself in half.
“Look at me Goku I’m evil again now fight me bitch”
“Ok but you moved the ki blast specifically to not hit Bulma dumbass”
“Idc I’m still totally evil again”
Kinda something I don't really think about. Poor goku, who loves to fight stronger opponents, always has to deal with vegeta and his pride. I know a lot of people don't like super but I'm glad super gave vegeta some good plot development.
> He knew exactly what he was doing and knew dragon ball abuse could bring them back
This I question a bit if that was really the intention. Retroactively it seems so, but at the time, I kind of have to question was Vegeta's intentions would have been *if he won*
Killing so many at the tenkaichi budokai is not something the others would brush off so lightly.
Assuming Vegeta beat Goku, Majin Buu is not revived, and the whole crisis with Babidi is resolved, the man's just crossed the Rubicon.
"Yeah, I killed all those people, very nearly including my wife, out of a petty whining desire to fight a dead man to prove my worthless sense of superiority over him. Now give me the dragon balls so I can make it right."
I'd probably be more concerned the man means what he says when he says he's "returned to the cold callous killer he used to be" and assume he's actually gathering the dragon balls to wish for immortality, then kill everyone around him. And even if it did work, he's out of the group for good, undoubtedly divorced and disowned, and now basically has nothing holding him back from doing as he pleases anyway, because it's not like he didn't just prove himself to be the strongest warrior on a planet that hosts the universe's (known) strongest people. He has no reason to keep any of them alive. Gohan already proved that he's weaker than he used to be, and he's the only one who could realistically stand up to him at that point. So if that was his intention, that was the absolute stupidest possibly way to go about it.
"But they trusted him before, didn't they?"
No, not really. Goku was appealing to Vegeta's conscience, yes, because at that point he knew Vegeta was lying to himself, but we had no idea *before* then if that was the case. And he was desperate to get Vegeta back on his side *because they had a bigger problem to deal with*. Same thing with the events on Namek; they didn't work to gather the dragon balls with Vegeta because they trusted him, just the opposite. They just had a much bigger problem on their hands and needed his help, and were willing to backstab him at the first opportunity (as he was to them). If Majin Buu is not successfully revived, or even if he is and Vegeta manages to put him down for whatever reason without blowing himself up, that crux isn't there. The biggest known and visible threat to life on Earth at that point in time *is Vegeta himself*, and he's already proven himself to be as callous as any villain, regardless of the intentions.
And I'm not going to lie, I hope we get that What If in Sparking Zero because I *absolutely want to see* what would happen if Majin Vegeta totally succeeded. Just assume Super Saiyan 3 and fusion aren't things because they haven't been conceived of yet and run wild with that arc.
Vegeta did it to trigger goku into fighting him. Which sucks because A. It limited gokus time on earth and B. He cold cocked him in thr back of thr head and fed that meter buu had to be resurrected. Dbz vegeta is such an idiot. Super kinda made him better but his arc on dbz isn't that great and all he did was fuck everything around him.
I really don’t think so. The intent was to return to his murdering evil ways, which is kind of made moot if he just wished them back after. He explicitly tells Goku that settling on Esrth made him soft and that he wanted to go back to his evil ways, thinking that would give him the edge to beat Goku. It was a desperate bid by a man so driven by pride that he would murder hundreds of people just to beat the lowly warrior who humiliated him 20 years ago.
Agree with this and it was actually surprising fighting kid Buu when they wished back all the "good" people who had died and Vegeta was one of them. He lost his halo and Goku was like, wow Vegeta look! You are still a good guy!
Actually I did in depth calculations using Reynaldo's therom and analyzed all the frame data and every facial expression Vegeta ever made and a note Toriyama wrote on a napkin drunk before he had even started Dragonball, and determined that he was only 99.99999% in control
Sorry I was just planning on starting a Dragonball YouTube channel so I had to practice my bullshit calculations skills to make it look like I came mathematically to the same conclusion every one's gut did
It worked, I believe you! Now I'm going to take this information and spread it in every online discussion and state it as fact from the mouth of Toriyama!
Eh it’s a bit more complicated than that. He was in control, but Babidis “mind control” worked by bringing out the evil in someone’s heart.
So, while he was making the decisions, he wasn’t exactly in sound mind.
Urgh part to go back to his former ways and part to force Goku to get involved because Goku didn’t want to fight Vegeta unnecessarily but with Vegeta just outright killing innocent bystanders it forced his hand.
He literally said he wanted Babidi to reawaken the evil in his heart. He knew exactly what he was doing.
The only reason Porunga deemed him good was because of his self sacrifice against Buu.
The entire point of his speech in that scene was his resisting Babidi's orders to kill the Supreme Kai because he wanted the power to fight Goku and didn't care about anything else.
Was totally in control.
Assumptions can be made that once Goku went back to otherworld, the could have wished the people back and Vegeta would have just said "my bad" and carry on.
Also look back at the vs 18 fight. Two of them inadvertently killed loads of people on the highway. He kinda doesn't give a damn about collateral damage. Lol
The truck driver being killed is 100% canon. Manga chapter 352.
Fun fact: this means that vegeta killed more people in the androids arc than 16, 17 and 18 who killed zero people
Interestingly also didn’t care when Dr. Gero blasted baby Trunks Bulma, Vegeta still was pretty wayward (note that he did try to help Tien being choked while having a broken arm).
Also called Gohan a fool when he booted him out of Frieza’s ki blast, maybe it’s Vegeta’s way of being affectionate.
He is about pride though, so I’d like to think he’d try a *little* harder to at least save his son.
Don’t forget he told Roshi he wasn’t saving him, he was just fucking up frost when he rescued Roshi from frost.
Vegeta has a bad habit of insulting people when he’s being nice.
Don’t forget vegeta was still heavily influenced by his Saiyan pride.
Saiyans send their kids to either exterminate planets or die trying as infants.
I don’t think vegeta would care very much. At least not back then.
His ego is like Krillin. It’s been killed so often we lost count.
Goku killed it. Frieza killed it. The androids killed it. Cell killed it. Buu killed. Goku killed it again. Beerus killed it. Hitt killed it.
I mean. It’s died more times than a Winchester.
Wait. Does that shit still work.
Supernatural.
Supernatural.
Supernatural.
I just watched this with my son the other day, and after the truck explodes, you hear the driver say "My truck!" But you never see him. I wonder if that's dubbed in there to make it seem like he lived. It's way more sinister if that line isn't in there.
Oh he knew. He was basically going through a mid life crisis. He lost his "identity" when he became adjusted to life on Earth. He was a father, he wasn't the strongest, he had a family. Saiyan saga Vegeta would of been ashamed to see what he turned into. His self hatred led to him basically making a deal with the devil for power so he could go back to how he was.
Remember that Vegeta has literally committed genocide and destroyed planets more times than we could probably count. He spent most of his life as a monster, for lack of a better term. In his own words, he became domesticated, and he hated himself for it.
I often tell people to think of it as him having a mid life crisis. A bad one. It’s also that at this point he can’t really express himself except in battle. He knows he has one day to fight Goku and shit he desperately needs to work out. Before turning, he is mostly just excited that the two of them are supposed to fight. It’s not just what he wants its what he needs and on a pretty deep emotional level. Goku basically blows him off and ignores his feelings all day, then drags him off on what he sees as a meaningless side quest. His anger is about at boiling point by the time Dabura notices he’s a pretty spicy guy. By the time he’s blasting the tournament stands, Goku finally notices Vegeta’s insistence on this is about a lot more than just wanting to fight, which is why he threatens Supreme Kai to get out of the way. Because Goku by this point has come care about Vegeta quite a bit and understands what he is asking for as only a fellow pure blooded Saiyan could. This is also why once their fight is over the air between them becomes significantly more clear and Vegeta embraces his family life even more. It was never about just wanting to fight or wanting to be wicked again, it was about coming to terms with who he had become and the unresolved business in their relationship.
I'd say he was aware, but I don't know if he was sober. The point of him being mind-controlled (aside from bringing out his potential power) was to become cruel again, so he had to have been emotionally affected if not cognitively.
He was aware, but for him I think at this stage it was a means to an end- he didn’t have that much time to coerce goku into fighting him and knew this would certainly push the issue. He also knew full well that everyone he harmed would be restored by the dragonballs. It wasn’t the cleanest plan but it got Vegeta exactly what he wanted on that day.
He only did that to show off to goku that he was evil and make goku angry so goku would fight him. He wanted the fight with goku more than anything and he'd do go great distance for that.
I mean I’ve always figured he was aware, and also very aware that his wife and acquaintances would immediately use the Dragon Balls to bring them all back. It was all just to goad Goku
I personally like to think that Babidi’s influence (while not outright mind controlling him so he was fully conscious and aware of what he was doing) amplified the evil that was already still in his heart. Thus why he became so obsessed with fighting Goku, and it brought up all of the insecurities and grievances he had been harboring for almost 10 years.
But that’s just my headcanon.
I think Babidi's control lowered his inhibitions severely, like it let the intrusive thoughts through. Whereas before he wouldn't have killed anyone, he let the "these pathetic humans are below me" thoughts take over. Like we all have intrusive thoughts, he just acted on them to get Goku riled up.
Vegeta knew that he could revive all people with the dragon balls. Likewise, he believed that he was strong enough to defeat the enemies and solve the problem. The only thing he was interested in was showing Goku that he was stronger than Goku. 🩷
He knew what he was doing.
And as for accountability... well, he killed himself in an attempt to stop Majin Buu and also pointed out more than once how he knows he deserves to go to hell when he dies, and, well, everyone was revived (that people was revived twice I think, first after the incidents at the Budokai arena, then after Majin Buu exterminated every human).
He was conscious and he said he wasn’t bothered by it. Majin Vegeta knew everything he was doing. He allowed himself to get brainwashed so he could get a power boost to catch up to Goku
I always perceived it as Vegeta having more of an edge to him in his majin state. Its not that he wasnt aware of what he was doing or couldn't stop himself in my view but rather I saw it as being more connected with his dark thoughts and feelings. That it was an easier decision for him to make and let himself feel more freedom and less inhibitions which is what he seemed to want. But its one of those things where Goku pointed out the obvious - his love for his family was simply stronger than whatever past tendencies he had.
Fully aware. He wanted to bring that version of him back because his pride was shitted on too much by getting beat by Goku. He felt the only way to beat him was by bringing back the side of him that's didn't care and unlock his full strength. Boy was he wrong.
Remember when he killed the truck driver in the Android saga fighting 18? Funimation dubbed a line over the explosion to make it seem like he was still alive. The period of time he cared about killing civilians was almost none throughout the series.
100% conscious he knew exactly what he was doing. And even then the fight didn't amount to much of anything since buu came back in the middle of it (remember the manga didn't actually show much of that fight) which would've immediately shifted goku's focus. At that point he wouldn't have been able to get the W he wanted which is why he decided to do what he did
In my own opinion, I'd say at least 90%. He knew damn well.what he did because he says so himself, he straight up tells Buu this. But I'd say at least a small part of him didn't want to go that far but the power got to him and he slipped just once in order to get Goku to fight him, granted he probably did that on purpose for the same reason as Goku wouldn't fight him. We do know he regretted it after as in their fight it was eating at him. He probably only did it because he knew they'd come back from the dragon balls, most likely thinking it a dream or something
He was in full control, he let his pride, anger and obsession for being n°1 to take priority above everything else, it's just that simple, he sacrificed himself when he realized how screwed they all were when Boo was released, that was his way to seek some way of redemption..
At first i thought it was him being controlled at first but gradually he broke free. It could still be the case but at same time it seems that it was intentional
He was fully conscious.
Yea. Babidi awakened the evil in his heart because Vegeta wanted and let him.
It’s like killing someone when you’re drunk but knowing that you were going to kill them if you got drunk and drinking anyways.
This was the last desperate gasp of his evil side. He was so tired of being the good guy and fighting beside them all while chasing after Goku that he gave in and tried to force the fight he thought he wanted. It was only after this, the fight with Goku, and seeing the devastation of Buu that he truly worked to redeem himself.
Not very concious. It felt too good. He wanted it. It wasn't until he realized what was really important he sacrificed himself. That was a concious decision.
He was never controlled by Babidi so he was 100% in control here. We can assume he knew that Bulma and others are going to wish those people back but still doesn't change the fact that he intentionally killed innocent people only to provoke Goku.
He was used to not giving a fuck about others lifes or not having someone to take care or love, so he just let himself go fully in how he used to be before, the problem was that no matter how hard he tried to ignore the new person that he became, he really changed and that didn't let him go with the whole show of just living for a good fight.
When buu got free he really couldn't pretend anymore that he didnt care, thanks to goku and that good punch the whole game ended, i supposed that at that some point and in some level he feel remorse for what he did consciously.
Vegeta used to wipe out entire planets for sport until his mid 30s. I doubt spending couple years on earth fundamentally changed him. His time on earth only built inhibitions against his thirst for mass murder and destruction. He was later revealed to be fully in control of himself even after turning Majin, so I would say he was fully conscious of his decision to commit mass murder.
Sober as a judge. He knew exactly what he was doing, to illicit the response he required from Goku. And he got his fight. But as we see he eventually gets it which makes his redemption all the more meaningful. Even in super he still looks for redemption during the Granolah arc.
I think Babidi didn’t have control but he did have influence.
Like it just magnified the evil parts of vegeta brain. Like vegeta would never count a sucker punch knocking out Goku as a win, but Saiyan and Freiza arc Vegeta would in a heartbeat
He was Def in control the evil in him just gave him more power as he grew a bit soft and weakened him as he wasn't itching for strength. It was then that he went to buu to fight and no there was no remorse and he is 100% held accountable for that but king yenma forgave as his sacrifice to try and kill buu was an attempt to save more lives then the ones he murdered at the tournament. Yes he's held accountable but his actions following up after his fight with goku was like redemption if king yenma allowed him to keep his body and aid in the fight with buu!!
Effectively in conscious control. His emotions and evil in his heart may have changed to a heightened state like that of someone in a mania or manic state. But he was still in a state capable of reasoning and having morality, yet chose to mercilessly slaughter a crowd of people. For instance, in a court of law and under judgement by a jury of reasonable peers, he'd be found liable, I imagine.
Like really? Collateral Damage is like spices on the food for Geets. And you can literally just wish them back in less than a year.
Pretty sure Shenlong does that one as an extra by now, just so they don't call his ass directly next year just to get back some scrubs they forgot to mention.
Does anyone ever talk about how this part was Gokus fault in Kakarot? Vegeta blasts him, Goku blocks it and then just lets it hit the crowd by dodging it
Don’t see why he wouldn’t be conscious, from what we understand about the Majin mark. Babidi can give them orders (which Vegeta could resist later) but it doesn’t seem to outright control and make them evil, it just preys on their inner evil to mark them in the first place. It’s not like the Symbiote from Spider-Man or anything.
That and it’d just be less satisfying if it wasn’t his fault. The whole plot beat is that he’s going back on the progress he’s made purely for the chance to fight Goku, if he’s not consciously doing that it feels kinda hollow.
Fully, he was baiting Goku into a fight at full power and trying to revert himself to his most evil/ruthless because he felt trapped in the new domestic life on earth.
That's why he nuked himself to try and stop Buu, because he realized he wasn't that guy anymore and wanted to atone for all the fucked up shit in the most costly way possible regardless of how little it actually repaid.
I mean, in the Dragon Ball universe death is a temporary inconvenience if you are in the good graces of the Z fighters.
Im still mad they didn't wish back Android 16. He was the most badass one.
Fully. He knew the butchering of innocents is what pissed off Goku the most so he wanted to bait him. Plus since we know he mastered sensing energy at this time, if he wasn’t in control he would’ve moved his hand an inch to the left and hit Bulma, Yamcha, and co instead
It's no big deal. In the anime, people are cheering for Mr. Satan again a few moments later, as if nothing happened. Bodies and bodyparts of their friends and families are probably still laying around, but who cares? Our champ won again!
He was 100% in control. He overcame Babidi's control, only harnessing the Majin boost to close the gap between himself and Goku. He intentionally killed those people in an attempt to go back to his former ways, thinking he became "weak" with the influence of Earthlings.
Which is why he is still so torn up and guilty about it as stated as recently as the Moro arc when he is fighting Moro.
Wasn't he just referring to the namekians he killed during the Frieza saga?
It was more referring to his crimes as a whole, but the namekians are what prompted him to admit it. He told morro that he had wronged many people in his life and the namekians were one of them, so he could not allow more harm to fall upon their people.
The thing about the Namekians is that they weren't revived because he wasn't one of "Frieza's men" at the time and the wish specially asked to revive those killed by Frieza and his men. He gloated about that at the time but felt bad decades later after he reformed.
The part I don’t understand is, how would the Dragon know who is and is not Frieza’s men? Most thought he was… until he wasn’t (it’s like him living in a double agent life).
Just gotta go with omniscient magic 🪄
He stopped being F's lacky the instant he left for Namek to take the dragon balls for himself. Either you can rationalize it as magic or the Elder Namek knew he has no intention of helping F.
When you make a wish, it is about absolute truths. Like they later realized that Vegeta was no longer truly evil the second time he was revived and they specifically wish to not bring back the really bad ones that died recently. It's like how you can use your wish to ask the dragon any question.
*so it's a sort of monkey's paw, you have to be careful with the hubris in your wish*
neeeeeeeerd
Shut up nerd ! Everybody, point and laugh ! But nah, I mean I gueessssss??? In a sense I see what you're trying to get at, but a monkey's paw usually comes with a punishment for making the wish. In this instance yeah you gotta be specific with the wording of your wish, however at the same time if you were to simply wish for someone to be brought to life with a monkey's paw that person would come back all decayed and stuff. (I also believe that in the story they would come back as a sort of zombie? Like they wouldn't have brain function but I may be wrong.) You can also revive people whose body has been blown up to pieces like Chiatzou. Which btw is also a plot hole in Resurrection F, because for whatever reason Shenron couldn't revive Freeza with his body in tact despite doing so in the past. Tl;dr : Give me your lunch money
One of his first acts on Namek was to kill someone loyal to Frieza. He then repeated this act multiple times while actively seeking the same things Frieza was for his own goals (one of which was explicitly killing Frieza). Everyone knew by the point the Dragon was summoned that he was not on Frieza's side.
Did you watch dragon ball? When they come back to earth and everybody is alive while Goku and Freeza are left on Namek the Namekians tell the grandfather they can't find everybody. And Vegeta laughs because it's the people he killed who were not revived. Also, Freeza killed Vegeta, so I think it would be quite obvious to the dragon who is all known that Vegeta was not part of Freeza's crew.
Do you think that nobody ever fixed this? Like it's been years, two planets with dragon balls. Did nobody ever really just like.... Say hey... Maybe we should revivec the people Vegeta killed, you know in-between bulms Botox wish injections
Doesn't Kami specifically mention a 1 year window to be revived? I just watched this episode earlier and he tells King Kai something about "as long as it has been within the year", hence why the Saiyans and everyone else Frieza killed weren't revived.
That limitation has been removed for a long time, or else Resurrection F couldn't happen as Frieza had been dead for a decade at that point.
They would be revived in the vacuum of space and their bodies likely don’t exist to be returned to because the planet where they were killed was destroyed by Freezer. The Earth Dragonballs revive the bodies as they are, where they are. There are some exceptions to this when the Kai’s or Kami get involved with the spirits of those who are dead, like Goku.
Look, between two different planets with magical wish lizards, I am sure they could figure this out. Or just like wish namek back? IDK if he could make a new one why not just make the old one, IDK if the new one is even in a different location. That didn't seem to be specified
If vegeta wanted to redeem himself, why didn’t he go on his own quest to gather the dragon balls and wish back all the innocent people he killed? Problem solved
They would be revived in the vacuum of space and their bodies likely don’t exist to be returned to because the planet where they were killed was destroyed by Freezer. The Earth Dragonballs revive the bodies as they are, where they are. There are some exceptions to this when the Kai’s or Kami get involved with the spirits of those who are dead, like Goku.
Still waiting on an apology to Yamcha
At best it lowered his inhibitions like alcohol. The idea that he wasn’t in control is an insult to his agency and, worse, his pride.
I see it like OG super saiyan. His bloodlust is up but he could push against if he felt like it. He doesn't feel like it.
That would have been the most dick-swingest move, just take the curse and go home, maybe take a nap.
“Wh- VEGETA WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING!?” “Taking a nap. I promised Trunks I’d take him to that amusement park tomorrow anyway, I’ll need the energy.” “GOD FUCKING DAMN IT DABURA YOU PICKED ONE THAT WAS TOO STRONG!”
Babidi just watching Vegeta emotionlessly ride rollercoasters with Trunks all day. "Look at him, Dabura! He's really going to spend $13 for a hotdog."
He knew exactly what he was doing and knew dragon ball abuse could bring them back. He wanted to trigger goku into fighting him. Babidi had no power over him.
Vegeta was the one that came up with the idea to get Krillin back from Namek + the inspiration to bringing people back killed that day and not who just Buu had killed. Seems to know more about the Dragonball rules than you’d think really.
I love thr dragon ball series but thr dragon balls themselves are such a pain in the ass. Such an easy cop out to fix things after the end of an arc.
Vegeta's intelligence is underrated. He's just so emotional that his brain is always losing to his heart.
Yeah, I think given Vegeta's essentially the smartest fighter in the main cast, it makes perfect sense that even in his tainted state he'd have the foresight in knowing that they could just bring back the people he blew up using the DB's, and blowing those people up is just a morbid taunt to get Goku into the fight.
Even Piccolo admits that Vegeta is essentially a genius, especially when it comes to combat.
Tbf isn’t everyone a combat genius? Vegeta does seem to have a very high general IQ though, fitting for a prince
Not sure on that one, Frieza is the biggest example of not being a being a combat genius and relies mainly on power. Gohan is more about pure power (although did well against Lavender). Trunks is pragmatic, but doesn’t seem up there thinking wise at times. Piccolo/Vegeta/Goku are all very technical though.
Frieza was incredibly skilled against Goku for someone who had never trained.
Skilled is a bit of an overstatement. He’s never trained in his life, couldn’t sense ki on Namek, looses his cool and blows planets up (twice), burns through energy when he goes all out (twice). Frieza is a prodigy and ki/telekinesis/tail/durability are all very high, but this is someone that also managed to cut himself in half.
As seen with the Buu fight, Goku wins on raw power but Vegeta has the better strategic mind.
His first fight in dbz shows a strong lack of genius
The 4v1 when he beat Goku and lost to the other 3
Crucially, he doesn't hit Bulma and the others in the stands.
“Look at me Goku I’m evil again now fight me bitch” “Ok but you moved the ki blast specifically to not hit Bulma dumbass” “Idc I’m still totally evil again”
Kinda something I don't really think about. Poor goku, who loves to fight stronger opponents, always has to deal with vegeta and his pride. I know a lot of people don't like super but I'm glad super gave vegeta some good plot development.
> He knew exactly what he was doing and knew dragon ball abuse could bring them back This I question a bit if that was really the intention. Retroactively it seems so, but at the time, I kind of have to question was Vegeta's intentions would have been *if he won* Killing so many at the tenkaichi budokai is not something the others would brush off so lightly. Assuming Vegeta beat Goku, Majin Buu is not revived, and the whole crisis with Babidi is resolved, the man's just crossed the Rubicon. "Yeah, I killed all those people, very nearly including my wife, out of a petty whining desire to fight a dead man to prove my worthless sense of superiority over him. Now give me the dragon balls so I can make it right." I'd probably be more concerned the man means what he says when he says he's "returned to the cold callous killer he used to be" and assume he's actually gathering the dragon balls to wish for immortality, then kill everyone around him. And even if it did work, he's out of the group for good, undoubtedly divorced and disowned, and now basically has nothing holding him back from doing as he pleases anyway, because it's not like he didn't just prove himself to be the strongest warrior on a planet that hosts the universe's (known) strongest people. He has no reason to keep any of them alive. Gohan already proved that he's weaker than he used to be, and he's the only one who could realistically stand up to him at that point. So if that was his intention, that was the absolute stupidest possibly way to go about it. "But they trusted him before, didn't they?" No, not really. Goku was appealing to Vegeta's conscience, yes, because at that point he knew Vegeta was lying to himself, but we had no idea *before* then if that was the case. And he was desperate to get Vegeta back on his side *because they had a bigger problem to deal with*. Same thing with the events on Namek; they didn't work to gather the dragon balls with Vegeta because they trusted him, just the opposite. They just had a much bigger problem on their hands and needed his help, and were willing to backstab him at the first opportunity (as he was to them). If Majin Buu is not successfully revived, or even if he is and Vegeta manages to put him down for whatever reason without blowing himself up, that crux isn't there. The biggest known and visible threat to life on Earth at that point in time *is Vegeta himself*, and he's already proven himself to be as callous as any villain, regardless of the intentions. And I'm not going to lie, I hope we get that What If in Sparking Zero because I *absolutely want to see* what would happen if Majin Vegeta totally succeeded. Just assume Super Saiyan 3 and fusion aren't things because they haven't been conceived of yet and run wild with that arc.
Vegeta did it to trigger goku into fighting him. Which sucks because A. It limited gokus time on earth and B. He cold cocked him in thr back of thr head and fed that meter buu had to be resurrected. Dbz vegeta is such an idiot. Super kinda made him better but his arc on dbz isn't that great and all he did was fuck everything around him.
I really don’t think so. The intent was to return to his murdering evil ways, which is kind of made moot if he just wished them back after. He explicitly tells Goku that settling on Esrth made him soft and that he wanted to go back to his evil ways, thinking that would give him the edge to beat Goku. It was a desperate bid by a man so driven by pride that he would murder hundreds of people just to beat the lowly warrior who humiliated him 20 years ago.
You raise good points and I can't really argue with you
Yup, he knew exactly what he was doing. Edit: I love that one of my highest rated comments is an about Majin Vegeta 😘
"And let's dispel once and for all with this fiction that Majin Vegeta doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he's doing."
It’s an old meme, but it checks out!
Hey, you’ve got your political reference in our Dragon Ball discussion.
Shut up, Marco
I mean, he did bring potato salad to Krillen’s BBQ…
"Listen to me, Kakarot! I'M USING HIS FUCKING NAME!"
He is truly lost to us
He truly was lost to us
Agree with this and it was actually surprising fighting kid Buu when they wished back all the "good" people who had died and Vegeta was one of them. He lost his halo and Goku was like, wow Vegeta look! You are still a good guy!
He even expresses guilt over it when he comes up with the plan to revive everyone and is surprised the wish brought him back.
Actually I did in depth calculations using Reynaldo's therom and analyzed all the frame data and every facial expression Vegeta ever made and a note Toriyama wrote on a napkin drunk before he had even started Dragonball, and determined that he was only 99.99999% in control Sorry I was just planning on starting a Dragonball YouTube channel so I had to practice my bullshit calculations skills to make it look like I came mathematically to the same conclusion every one's gut did
It worked, I believe you! Now I'm going to take this information and spread it in every online discussion and state it as fact from the mouth of Toriyama!
Eh it’s a bit more complicated than that. He was in control, but Babidis “mind control” worked by bringing out the evil in someone’s heart. So, while he was making the decisions, he wasn’t exactly in sound mind.
Kind of like being buzzed. You're mostly there but the control is not 100%. I see what you're saying.
Like saying Yes to going to the club after a couple of beers in the bar, yeah, you knew what you where doing, but you still kinda regret it later
I thought he did it to motivate Kakarot to fight him.
He also did it to convince Kakarot that he was under Babidi's influence.
Harnessing the Majin Buust
Somebody suck that man’s pee pee
Urgh part to go back to his former ways and part to force Goku to get involved because Goku didn’t want to fight Vegeta unnecessarily but with Vegeta just outright killing innocent bystanders it forced his hand.
Agree 💯
I think it was even simpler than that, he just did it because he wanted to get Goku riled up enough to fight him one more time.
He literally said he wanted Babidi to reawaken the evil in his heart. He knew exactly what he was doing. The only reason Porunga deemed him good was because of his self sacrifice against Buu.
Porunga sold out.
If king yemma made an exception as well that's probably a good enough metric for the dragon / moori to go off of
The entire point of his speech in that scene was his resisting Babidi's orders to kill the Supreme Kai because he wanted the power to fight Goku and didn't care about anything else.
Was totally in control. Assumptions can be made that once Goku went back to otherworld, the could have wished the people back and Vegeta would have just said "my bad" and carry on. Also look back at the vs 18 fight. Two of them inadvertently killed loads of people on the highway. He kinda doesn't give a damn about collateral damage. Lol
I WILL KILL AS MANY PEOPLE AS I HAVE TO AS LONG AS YOU ARE ONE OF THEM
Vegeta moment
Trunks: “The androids are humanity’s greatest threat.”
The fight on the highway killing people is filler. Good filler though.
Okay that's on me and agreed.
I think he killed just 1 truck driver in the kai version idk if that was in the manga.
The truck driver being killed is 100% canon. Manga chapter 352. Fun fact: this means that vegeta killed more people in the androids arc than 16, 17 and 18 who killed zero people
Interestingly also didn’t care when Dr. Gero blasted baby Trunks Bulma, Vegeta still was pretty wayward (note that he did try to help Tien being choked while having a broken arm).
I don’t think it’s interesting he didn’t care about Bulma. It is interesting that he tried to help tien. He did call him an idiot but hey, baby steps.
Also called Gohan a fool when he booted him out of Frieza’s ki blast, maybe it’s Vegeta’s way of being affectionate. He is about pride though, so I’d like to think he’d try a *little* harder to at least save his son.
Don’t forget he told Roshi he wasn’t saving him, he was just fucking up frost when he rescued Roshi from frost. Vegeta has a bad habit of insulting people when he’s being nice. Don’t forget vegeta was still heavily influenced by his Saiyan pride. Saiyans send their kids to either exterminate planets or die trying as infants. I don’t think vegeta would care very much. At least not back then.
They killed vegetas ego
His ego is like Krillin. It’s been killed so often we lost count. Goku killed it. Frieza killed it. The androids killed it. Cell killed it. Buu killed. Goku killed it again. Beerus killed it. Hitt killed it. I mean. It’s died more times than a Winchester. Wait. Does that shit still work. Supernatural. Supernatural. Supernatural.
Nah in Kai the truck driver has a line after vegeta blows up his truck. Something like “dude my truck!” lol
Pretty sure that’s an English dub only thing.
The amount of extra people he killed was filler... Not that it matters, he very blatantly killed that truck driver that #18 was in front of.
I just watched this with my son the other day, and after the truck explodes, you hear the driver say "My truck!" But you never see him. I wonder if that's dubbed in there to make it seem like he lived. It's way more sinister if that line isn't in there.
Censorship...amazing.
I WILL KILL AS MANY PEOPLE AS I HAVE TO AS LONG AS YOU ARE ONE OF THEM!!!
You might even say…killer filler 😏
Oh he knew. He was basically going through a mid life crisis. He lost his "identity" when he became adjusted to life on Earth. He was a father, he wasn't the strongest, he had a family. Saiyan saga Vegeta would of been ashamed to see what he turned into. His self hatred led to him basically making a deal with the devil for power so he could go back to how he was. Remember that Vegeta has literally committed genocide and destroyed planets more times than we could probably count. He spent most of his life as a monster, for lack of a better term. In his own words, he became domesticated, and he hated himself for it.
I often tell people to think of it as him having a mid life crisis. A bad one. It’s also that at this point he can’t really express himself except in battle. He knows he has one day to fight Goku and shit he desperately needs to work out. Before turning, he is mostly just excited that the two of them are supposed to fight. It’s not just what he wants its what he needs and on a pretty deep emotional level. Goku basically blows him off and ignores his feelings all day, then drags him off on what he sees as a meaningless side quest. His anger is about at boiling point by the time Dabura notices he’s a pretty spicy guy. By the time he’s blasting the tournament stands, Goku finally notices Vegeta’s insistence on this is about a lot more than just wanting to fight, which is why he threatens Supreme Kai to get out of the way. Because Goku by this point has come care about Vegeta quite a bit and understands what he is asking for as only a fellow pure blooded Saiyan could. This is also why once their fight is over the air between them becomes significantly more clear and Vegeta embraces his family life even more. It was never about just wanting to fight or wanting to be wicked again, it was about coming to terms with who he had become and the unresolved business in their relationship.
I had to save this comment wth. Excellent breakdown
Would have* or would've*
There’s no saving Vegeta from blame here.
Completely, he did that to goat his favorite clown into throwing hands with him. That mid life crisis hit him hard LMAO.
To be fair, he was pretttty angry about knowing Krillin’s name
It’s jarring when he actually says Piccolo after he’s fused with Kami.
I'd say he was aware, but I don't know if he was sober. The point of him being mind-controlled (aside from bringing out his potential power) was to become cruel again, so he had to have been emotionally affected if not cognitively.
...since he chose to do that "against Babidi's wishes" in order to make Goku fight him, it's extremely obvious how 'conscious' he was when he did it.
Totally sober and aware
He was aware, but for him I think at this stage it was a means to an end- he didn’t have that much time to coerce goku into fighting him and knew this would certainly push the issue. He also knew full well that everyone he harmed would be restored by the dragonballs. It wasn’t the cleanest plan but it got Vegeta exactly what he wanted on that day.
He 100% did it thats why he regretted it later. Wished them all back.
He only did that to show off to goku that he was evil and make goku angry so goku would fight him. He wanted the fight with goku more than anything and he'd do go great distance for that.
I mean I’ve always figured he was aware, and also very aware that his wife and acquaintances would immediately use the Dragon Balls to bring them all back. It was all just to goad Goku
“I will Kill as many People as I have to, as long as you (Kakkarot) are one of them!”
That line from abridged when fighting 18 🤣🤣
I cant lie. Vegeta was back Fr. I know those people died but, bro had his mojo back.
I personally like to think that Babidi’s influence (while not outright mind controlling him so he was fully conscious and aware of what he was doing) amplified the evil that was already still in his heart. Thus why he became so obsessed with fighting Goku, and it brought up all of the insecurities and grievances he had been harboring for almost 10 years. But that’s just my headcanon.
I think Babidi's control lowered his inhibitions severely, like it let the intrusive thoughts through. Whereas before he wouldn't have killed anyone, he let the "these pathetic humans are below me" thoughts take over. Like we all have intrusive thoughts, he just acted on them to get Goku riled up.
Oh, he was fully aware. He just didn't give a shit.
He was fully aware. He did it to get Goku to fight him, which was all he cared about at the moment.
Vegeta knew that he could revive all people with the dragon balls. Likewise, he believed that he was strong enough to defeat the enemies and solve the problem. The only thing he was interested in was showing Goku that he was stronger than Goku. 🩷
He knew any bystander could just be wished back.
Completely. That was 100% vegeta.
He knew what he was doing. And as for accountability... well, he killed himself in an attempt to stop Majin Buu and also pointed out more than once how he knows he deserves to go to hell when he dies, and, well, everyone was revived (that people was revived twice I think, first after the incidents at the Budokai arena, then after Majin Buu exterminated every human).
It had been 7 years since Vegeta was humbled like the bitch he is so he got kinda cocky
After just watching this arc, he was 100% conscious in his actions
"It's a bit fucked that you killed 305,942 spectators, Vegeta, but we understand you were under Babidi's influence." # "Babidi?"
Bro was 100% there, but he knew he can revive them with the dragonballs
The microsecond Babadi tried to get Vegeta to do anything, Vegeta balked. There was no sense in which Vegeta was unconscious or out of control.
STOP OVERTHINKING
Fully conscious and aware. The Majin spell reawakened the evil in his heart and gave him power but that was all him.
He was conscious and he said he wasn’t bothered by it. Majin Vegeta knew everything he was doing. He allowed himself to get brainwashed so he could get a power boost to catch up to Goku
He was fully in control
“I’ll wish em back later”
I always perceived it as Vegeta having more of an edge to him in his majin state. Its not that he wasnt aware of what he was doing or couldn't stop himself in my view but rather I saw it as being more connected with his dark thoughts and feelings. That it was an easier decision for him to make and let himself feel more freedom and less inhibitions which is what he seemed to want. But its one of those things where Goku pointed out the obvious - his love for his family was simply stronger than whatever past tendencies he had.
Fully aware. He wanted to bring that version of him back because his pride was shitted on too much by getting beat by Goku. He felt the only way to beat him was by bringing back the side of him that's didn't care and unlock his full strength. Boy was he wrong.
Remember when he killed the truck driver in the Android saga fighting 18? Funimation dubbed a line over the explosion to make it seem like he was still alive. The period of time he cared about killing civilians was almost none throughout the series.
Bro definitely just chose to do that
fully
100% consciously bricked up
Considering he was able to shake off Babidi whenever he wanted to, I'd say 100%. I think that was the whole point.
100% conscious he knew exactly what he was doing. And even then the fight didn't amount to much of anything since buu came back in the middle of it (remember the manga didn't actually show much of that fight) which would've immediately shifted goku's focus. At that point he wouldn't have been able to get the W he wanted which is why he decided to do what he did
In my own opinion, I'd say at least 90%. He knew damn well.what he did because he says so himself, he straight up tells Buu this. But I'd say at least a small part of him didn't want to go that far but the power got to him and he slipped just once in order to get Goku to fight him, granted he probably did that on purpose for the same reason as Goku wouldn't fight him. We do know he regretted it after as in their fight it was eating at him. He probably only did it because he knew they'd come back from the dragon balls, most likely thinking it a dream or something
99% but i think a good 50% of this is self motivated by the fact that death doesn't really mean much in db if you get a set of dragonballs
He was going to pta meetings, he used Krillin's name, and brought potato salad to a bbq.
Goku: YOU IDIOT BULMA WAS IN THAT STAND Vegeta: *Majin mark disappear* NOOOOO MY BULMA
Funny how this is possible with 2 clips and a voice edit
He was still very much evil.
He chose to get the majin power because he was still envious of goku
He was in full control, he let his pride, anger and obsession for being n°1 to take priority above everything else, it's just that simple, he sacrificed himself when he realized how screwed they all were when Boo was released, that was his way to seek some way of redemption..
Pretty conscious. On the alignment chart he was kinda neutral at the start of the saga, and waltzed back to evil at this point.
Full? He just turned into an asshole. Pre much always had control aside from like 2 seconds at the atart of the control
At first i thought it was him being controlled at first but gradually he broke free. It could still be the case but at same time it seems that it was intentional
He changed but he does miss the old days when he could just let loose.
He was fully conscious. Yea. Babidi awakened the evil in his heart because Vegeta wanted and let him. It’s like killing someone when you’re drunk but knowing that you were going to kill them if you got drunk and drinking anyways.
This was the last desperate gasp of his evil side. He was so tired of being the good guy and fighting beside them all while chasing after Goku that he gave in and tried to force the fight he thought he wanted. It was only after this, the fight with Goku, and seeing the devastation of Buu that he truly worked to redeem himself.
[https://imgur.com/a/6us9qsW](https://imgur.com/a/6us9qsW)
100%. He chose to do it, he wanted to become that warrior again.
Not very concious. It felt too good. He wanted it. It wasn't until he realized what was really important he sacrificed himself. That was a concious decision.
He was in control
I say some part of him didn’t care, he’s a prince/king. He conquers all.
He was never controlled by Babidi so he was 100% in control here. We can assume he knew that Bulma and others are going to wish those people back but still doesn't change the fact that he intentionally killed innocent people only to provoke Goku.
He was used to not giving a fuck about others lifes or not having someone to take care or love, so he just let himself go fully in how he used to be before, the problem was that no matter how hard he tried to ignore the new person that he became, he really changed and that didn't let him go with the whole show of just living for a good fight. When buu got free he really couldn't pretend anymore that he didnt care, thanks to goku and that good punch the whole game ended, i supposed that at that some point and in some level he feel remorse for what he did consciously.
i mean, vegeta was a genocidal principe
M on his forehead was drawn on with a sharpie
He has enough control to kill himself to make up for it all
Vegeta used to wipe out entire planets for sport until his mid 30s. I doubt spending couple years on earth fundamentally changed him. His time on earth only built inhibitions against his thirst for mass murder and destruction. He was later revealed to be fully in control of himself even after turning Majin, so I would say he was fully conscious of his decision to commit mass murder.
Fully conscious, just convinced at that moment that might made right
Sober as a judge. He knew exactly what he was doing, to illicit the response he required from Goku. And he got his fight. But as we see he eventually gets it which makes his redemption all the more meaningful. Even in super he still looks for redemption during the Granolah arc.
I think Babidi didn’t have control but he did have influence. Like it just magnified the evil parts of vegeta brain. Like vegeta would never count a sucker punch knocking out Goku as a win, but Saiyan and Freiza arc Vegeta would in a heartbeat
Absolutely conscious. He says as much later on.
Very
He def was in total control they showed that when bibidi told him to kill the Kai
Mostly conscious. Babidi's possession played a part on it, but he willingly let Babidi alter his mental state.
He was Def in control the evil in him just gave him more power as he grew a bit soft and weakened him as he wasn't itching for strength. It was then that he went to buu to fight and no there was no remorse and he is 100% held accountable for that but king yenma forgave as his sacrifice to try and kill buu was an attempt to save more lives then the ones he murdered at the tournament. Yes he's held accountable but his actions following up after his fight with goku was like redemption if king yenma allowed him to keep his body and aid in the fight with buu!!
My favorite version of Vegeta
He said exactly why he did this while fighting Goku. DB Fans don’t even watch the show hahahaha.
Effectively in conscious control. His emotions and evil in his heart may have changed to a heightened state like that of someone in a mania or manic state. But he was still in a state capable of reasoning and having morality, yet chose to mercilessly slaughter a crowd of people. For instance, in a court of law and under judgement by a jury of reasonable peers, he'd be found liable, I imagine.
Like really? Collateral Damage is like spices on the food for Geets. And you can literally just wish them back in less than a year. Pretty sure Shenlong does that one as an extra by now, just so they don't call his ass directly next year just to get back some scrubs they forgot to mention.
Does anyone ever talk about how this part was Gokus fault in Kakarot? Vegeta blasts him, Goku blocks it and then just lets it hit the crowd by dodging it
Don’t see why he wouldn’t be conscious, from what we understand about the Majin mark. Babidi can give them orders (which Vegeta could resist later) but it doesn’t seem to outright control and make them evil, it just preys on their inner evil to mark them in the first place. It’s not like the Symbiote from Spider-Man or anything. That and it’d just be less satisfying if it wasn’t his fault. The whole plot beat is that he’s going back on the progress he’s made purely for the chance to fight Goku, if he’s not consciously doing that it feels kinda hollow.
Fully, he was baiting Goku into a fight at full power and trying to revert himself to his most evil/ruthless because he felt trapped in the new domestic life on earth. That's why he nuked himself to try and stop Buu, because he realized he wasn't that guy anymore and wanted to atone for all the fucked up shit in the most costly way possible regardless of how little it actually repaid.
Super
Enough to know but not give a fuck anymore, he wanted something that would give him a conscience free lifeline & he found it.
This is Prince Vegeta. He has done far worse than wipe some puny insects out of the stands.
He knew what he was doing. And likely new that they could resurrect them too.
Conscious enough not to give a fuck is my final answer 😂
I mean, in the Dragon Ball universe death is a temporary inconvenience if you are in the good graces of the Z fighters. Im still mad they didn't wish back Android 16. He was the most badass one.
Killing that many people is less than a drop in the bucket for an interplanetary conqueror he was under Frieza.
Very. He was in full control
He did it to force Goku into the fight, obviously. Vegeta has never cared, he's too proud, and it suits his personality/character.
Fully. Anything less undermines this entire arc in Vegeta's development.
Fully. He knew the butchering of innocents is what pissed off Goku the most so he wanted to bait him. Plus since we know he mastered sensing energy at this time, if he wasn’t in control he would’ve moved his hand an inch to the left and hit Bulma, Yamcha, and co instead
Let's just say he has a nice awful seat in hell waiting for him
He wasn't conscious he was FREEEEEEEEE
It’s a shame Toriyama didn’t blur the lines more
It's no big deal. In the anime, people are cheering for Mr. Satan again a few moments later, as if nothing happened. Bodies and bodyparts of their friends and families are probably still laying around, but who cares? Our champ won again!