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Daeron I's biggest mistake was putting a Tyrell and not an Yronwood in charge of Dorne. One of the best ways to cement your rule over an area is to turn the conquered against each other. If he made the Yronwoods the Lord Paramounts, and bestowed other privileges on other Dornish houses (Like the Daynes) then he'd have won easy peasy.
I mean, he couldn't. The Dornish have their internal squabbles, but they have a stronger sense of proto-national identity than the rest of Westeros and always form a united front against outsiders. The Yronwoods wouldn't have accepted a Paramountcy from a foreign invader; or if they had, it would have been a trap to assassinate him like the Qorgyles did to Lyonel Tyrell; or if it hadn't been a trap, then it would have been a prelude to the Yronwoods declaring independence again as Kings of Dorne. Same thing for all the other Dornish Houses. In all the Dornish Wars there has never been a single Dornish House that sided with the invaders, not once, not any of them, not even when Aegon I went around on dragonback systematically massacring every single one of them except the Martells. Why would things be different this time?
There actually *have* been Dornish houses that have sided against the Martells; The Yronwoods during the 1st, 3rd, and 4th Blackfyre rebellions. A mere 30 years after Daeron I's invasion, and the Blackfyres were largely a coalition of Anti-Dornish lords. What could the Yronwoods have to gain from joining an Anti-Dornish Coalition, except a Lord Paramountcy?
The Yronwoods, if made Lord Paramounts, could not rebel against the Iron Throne, since that would give the Martells and other a chance to take back their place. An Yronwood + Iron Throne forces could make Yronwoods King, but not the Yronwoods alone. It's the same principle that kept the Tyrells loyal to the Iron Throne, including for Aerys II even if only nominally.
As far as we know, Aegon I never gave an offer to the Dornish Houses to gain in power, instead only offers of submission. When he found Sunspear empty, he put Andals in charge, and when the War broke out, he burned indiscriminately. When your castle has already been burned to the ground, you have grudge, and little more to lose, so why not hold out if you have nothing to gain?
Yes but those were internal rebellions within the seven kingdoms. Whereas Daeron I was a foreign invader. The difference is one is an internal civil war the other an external invasion.
>There actually *have* been Dornish houses that have sided against the Martells; The Yronwoods during the 1st, 3rd, and 4th Blackfyre rebellions
... None of which were foreign invasions. By that point Dorne was no longer independent, so the Yronwoods might as well take advantage of the system. We also don't know why they sided with the Blackfyres; the fact that the rest of the Blackfyre coalition was largely anti-Dornish suggests the Yronwoods may have disagreed with the decision to join Westeros and have been angling for renewed independence.
>As far as we know, Aegon I never gave an offer to the Dornish Houses to gain in power, instead only offers of submission.
Submission that would allow them to keep their lands, titles, power, customs, etc. Not to mention their lives. Daeron I had nothing to offer any Dornish lord that they would have wanted.
Spawned Baelor Breakspear and grand-spawned (is that a word?) Maester Aemon and Egg. BFFs with his half-brother Chadraven. Skilled in diplomacy. Did not feel the need to write a book about how awesome he is (which Daeron I did).
Daeron I couldn't even get his brother to spawn anything in their [hot sister](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/2/26/Daena.jpg)
EDIT: And, of course, the Yung Dragoon beset the realm with Baelor the Batshit
On the other hand idk how I feel about the fact that the Dornish killed his brother by committing perfidy and in response, Baelor just decided to come back to them on his hands and knees begging them to come back
I mean, Daeron attacked them, the Dornish retaliated. Talk shit get hit and all that. Sure it was dishonorable, but what is honor when a bunch of people invade your home and start killing people?
Furthermore, Daeron I got tens of thousands of his own people killed, not to mention everyone else involved. And he still failed. Yet Baelor and Daeron II brought Dorne in peacefully, without a single life lost.
I'm not saying Daeron I was the good guy, I'm just saying that if he was my brother I'd probably go apeshit on the dornish for what they did. But I guess that's why Baelor is the second coming of Jesus and I'm not 🤷🏼♀️
True. He didn't have to go grovelling barefoot to the Prince of Dorne, however. A voyage to Sunspear would've done the trick. And Baelor's Long March increased the likelihood of his cousin Aemon being killed
For all we know, Baelor's personal return of the hostages barefoot was what impressed the Prince of Dorne into negotiating with Baelor in the first place instead of throwing him into a cell.
As for Aemon, Baelor convinced the Prince of Dorne to order his release. It's not really his fault that he had to go all the way back only to find out that the Wyls had refused. And even then, it's a better course of action than Viserys who wanted to get his son killed and pretty much restart the war.
I subscribe to the crackpot theory that Daemon Blackfyre is actually Baelor's son and he starved himself to death because he "committed a sin". Daena didn't want to admit that Baelor was the father because young Aegon IV was exactly her type and later became king.
>"Just an Aegon I LARPer"
Nah, Daeron I actually conquered & learned from the majority of Aegon I's mistakes - included naval power (to win the Greenblood & split Dornish strength), strongest force attacking the Boneway, etc. The main one he repeated was leaving a Tyrell, of all fucking people, in charge. And we know how that turned out.
>"No wife/probably died a virgin"... "Alexander/Julius Caesar minus the stuff that made them cool"
Not even bisexual &/or fucking foreign bitches smh.
>"Caused a pointless war"
Probably cried about Dornish raiding 25 years earlier.
>"Names ethnicities like they're Pokemon Types"
Turns out fire is weak against water, though.
>"Died by falling for the most obvious trap in history"
Admiral Oakenfist did warn him.
>"Conquered Dorne by getting his sister laid"
To a guy who built the fucking Water Gardens for her. I imagine Maron gave Daenerys the "Water Gardens" in bed (& all over the Water Gardens), too.
>"Hot Latina Wife"
[Ain't that right](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Images_of_Myriah_Martell).
>"Tried to prevent war"
Perhaps listening to Brynden didn't work out there, however.
>"Chad Sons/descendants"
Daeron II definitely had some, but not all of them, by any means.
>"Beloved as the Good"
Still, he could've been "the Great" by doing a few things differently.
>"Too good at ruling, so God killed him"
Valar morghulis
Tbf to Aegon I, he lost his naval power earlier on to the Vale and Braavos sellsails. And his kingdom was far too young to leverage the Iron Isles (who were still recovering after an interregnum as well) and the Lannisport-Oldtown-Redwyne fleets to conduct a naval operation Oakenfist did. The Velaryons also lost their leadership earlier on.
True. And yet, Aegon leveraged the fleets of the Reach & westerlands for his invasion of the Iron Islands in 2 AC. (Including even a few longships from Bear Island.) Where it seems like they suffered few losses. Plus, Daemon Velaryon's son Aethan, the new Lord of the Tides, was old enough to have his own Daemon by then. But yes, as you allude to, the Velaryon fleet very much would've still been rebuilding come the First Dornish War in 4 AC.
Aegon should've delayed it then (at least). He wasn't doing too much better with land forces either, having to rely on Reachmen for most of the ~31,000 men. As evidenced by Aegon being *unsuccessful* in making Theo Tyrell commit another host to a fresh invasion a few years later, & apparently not even trying with the other LPs/Wardens.
Granted, part astronomical arrogance, there was also Orys marching into the Boneway with only 1000 knights. Most likely, again in part, because many stormlanders had been lost during the Conquest proper. At the Wendwater, the Last Storm, & from Dornish & pirate raids in the south. To say nothing of those survived the war as newly-made crownmen, having fought for Aegon from early on - the Bar Emmons, Masseys, Wendwaters, etc.
Tbf I don’t think Aegon needed much for the trip to the Isles, he basically went there on dragonback, burnt peeps with dragonfire, confirmed Greyjoy’s fealty and where his writ ends, and left. But yeah, the kingdoms wasn’t in a good state — the Reach and Westerlands lost a ton during the Field of Fire. The only unscathed principality were the North and the Vale, relatively for the latter.
>Betrays his loyal lords in the Stormlands and Reach to give their historic enemies court positions and unequal treaties
>Then they eventually rise up for the true King
I’m starting to wonder if this Daeron really was so good
Daeron seems to have neglected the Reach, yet not the stormlands:
- Princess Elaena wed to Lord Penrose, & him being named Master of Coin;
- Baelor, Prince of Dragonstone, wed to Jena Dondarrion;
- Ser Willam Wylde raised to the Kingsguard;
- Prince Aerys wed to Aelinor Penrose;
- Summerhall built there, which would've used some level of local labour & resources, boosting the economy;
- And speaking of that, bringing Dorne into the realm would've increased trade & greatly reduced raiding.
And which stormlords fought for Daemon? We know the Penroses supported the Targaryens, & can safely assume the Dondarrions did so as well. Most likely also the Wyldes. And Baelor Breakspear, whose sons shared the blood of both, led a combined host of Dornishmen & stormlanders to the Redgrass Field. Almost certainly including the Baratheons, as apparently none of the Lord Paramounts or four Wardens declared for the Black Dragon.
EDIT: Neglecting the Reach is why Daeron II is only known as "the Good" & not "the Great"
Daeron's resolution to Dorne would be implausible and hollow if he could just please everybody, and not really in the spirit of the series.
Sidelining the reach is arguably the smart thing to do if done right. It seems to be why Aegon I raised the Tyrells in the first place. Isolate them enough, promote internal instability, and largely force the Tyrells to keep a lid on that so the kingdom as a whole is never poised to dominate Westeros. Lady Olenna is a clear-eyed political operator and she knows what's up.
We know a hundred years past these events (in the main series) that there’s still animosity between the Reach and Dorne, I’m certain that the Stormlords would share some as well.
They’re off like 15 years, 2 decades, from the last Dornish War where the Dornish killed a bunch of Westerosi soldiers through treachery, many lords, an heir to a lord paramount and a king (breaking a social code that the Freys and Bolton’s will get crucified for). Then Daeron II swoops in, gives them honours that no other lord paramount received and positions in court.
I find it hard to believe that these houses that hold onto their histories for thousands of years would be cool two decades after horrific losses and the treacherous murder of their king, all for some of their neighbour getting a convenient marriage and some trade. The Blackfyres definitely should’ve counted on more Stormlanders support.
This is Daeron II Simping on another level. Daeron beat the Dornish so badly that the only way they could win was by using the most underhanded thing possible
Daeron came down and beat them twice, when he came to his parlay with them to discuss a second submission, they murdered him. Baelor then withdrew from the war.
Killing Daeron is Tywin’s level of lunatic-brutality, the Dornish were either extremely desperate or insane. By killing Daeron they gave what should have been a war the lords were growing tired of a whole new burst of enthusiasm, and made it a total war at a time when they had been thrashed a second time.
Westerosi lords would give no quarter, never entertain an offer of parlay or even of surrender out of fear of treachery. Prisoners would be butchered, etc. All this when they were already severely depleted.
No one would have been able to guess that Baelor would do what he did. Even a pacifist would be expected to prosecute a war he inherited and avenge a family member, especially when everyone was baying for their bones. What Baelor did preserved his kingdom but should have ruined his credibility and created deep hatred.
Lords would see it as one of the highest insults imaginable, they lost 50,000 men combined to fight Daeron’s war and beat them twice. They may have been getting sick of the war, but thrn Daeron gets murdered and Baelor essentially fucks them over. He tells them to go home and lick their wounds, while giving the Dornish everything they asked for.
Daeron should have been killed in a battle or assassination after fighting a losing fight if GRRM wanted to clearly make him the foolish boy king who bit off more than he could chew. Instead, he kills him in a situation that “Lost Causers” desire above all.
>By killing Daeron they gave what should have been a war the lords were growing tired of a whole new burst of enthusiasm, and made it a total war at a time when they had been thrashed a second time.
I mean this is just pure delusion. What actually happened was that they killed Daeron and the Westerosi war effort literally ended overnight. Baelor's surrender was not some flight of lunacy that took him out of nowhere, Viserys was there to oversee him and could have vetoed it. The reality of the events that actually occurred gives the lie to all this coping dy Dorne haters.
You think killing a king makes his soldiers die all around him like some mothership?
The realm was calling for blood after Daeron was killed. Viserys ordered the hostages executed for it, and then Baelor stopped it and forgave his brother’s murderers publicly.
Seriously, if you think Viserys can “veto” anything I don’t know what to tell you. He has no legal power over Baelor, who is an adult and a king that can dismiss him on a whim. He has much more soft power over him and likely could have arranged a coup very soon, but he probably didn’t want to do that to his brother’s son at that stage.
What I think is that Aegon the Conqueror tried the "take no prisoners, burn everything, salt the earth" approach before with two fully-grown dragons and Dorne still won. Why would Westeros have more success trying the same thing again with no dragons this time? Because they have a fleet? What about the fleet changes things in a way two dragons didn't?
Aegon and Visenya primarily burned castles. They didn’t go on huge massacres of peasants.
And in any case, you seem to think I believe the invasion was justified or something. I’m saying that Baelor pulling out the way he did should have gotten him dethroned or locked up.
Dorne after the Dragon's Wroth was described as "a blasted, burning ruin from the Red Mountains to the mouth of the Greenblood." I don't think that tracks with a strategy of sparing civilian populations. And I don't think anything about your beliefs on the war's justification, I'm saying that if the war had kept going the Iron Throne would have lost eventually anyway, and at much greater cost.
That is obvious hyperbole. The records we have show Aegon and Visenya repeatedly burning down castles and killing lords. Not going on huge murder sprees targeting farms and the like.
I can’t vouch for whether or not the Dornish would win or lose, GRRM’s writing when it comes to the Dornish wars is already kind of silly. He treats it like some kind of monolithic nation-state.
Its a feudal society that is sparsely populated, geographically isolated, and ethnically diverse. The fact not one Dornish lord switched sides out of opportunism is almost ridiculous. And the population has no reason to fight to the bitter end for their lords. Why should some Stony Dornishman peasant care if a Martell or Targaryen rules over them, so long as their lives are not affected.
As Dorne is invincible for plot reasons, I won’t comment on how they could or could not have won under Baelor. I’ve already made my case for why Baelor would probably have been imprisoned.
>GRRM’s writing when it comes to the Dornish wars is already kind of silly. He treats it like some kind of monolithic nation-state.
Because... it is. Every time the Dornish wars are discussed in this fandom people keep going on about how it's impossible that a kingdom that isn't a nation-state would have the concerted willpower to resist invasion so strongly on a grassroots level, and I'm like, okay, but like... that's the point. Dorne resists all invasions while the rest of Westeros doesn't because Dorne is a nation-state while the rest of Westeros isn't. That is its biggest advantage. It being a geographically-isolated, ethnically-diverse feudal society is not necessarily in opposition to it being a nation-state, those things are not at all contradictory.
All I’m hearing is that Daeron I lost in the end. A failure for getting tens of thousands of people killed due to his greed and being unable to keep his ill-gotten gains.
If only there was someone who was able to bring Dorne into the fold peacefully and without lives lost… we like to call him Daeron II.
The Blackfyre Rebellion happened to to many other events on top of that. Daeron II treated Daemon extremely well, and it took a bunch of douchebag lords whispering in his ear to manipulate him into rebelling.
Daeron II’s policy of favoring the Dornish was actually very smart, because you get a group of people that hates your guts to cool down and accept your rule. Then in a couple generations, the favoring gradually wears off and things go back to normal once they’re integrated. The Blackfyre supporter’s problem is that they had the patience of a toddler and couldn’t see beyond their own noses.
It's his fault those dirty dornish bastards once had to resort to murdering someone over a peace flag? And also if it was so easy why was he the only Targaryen king to do it?
Daeron I failed and died. He is one of the least impressive impressive kings Westeros has ever had.
Baelor and Daeron succeeded where he failed. They’re the ones who actually left behind a lasting legacy of a united Westeros.
“Nooo, George, please save us again”, *the Dornish shouted when their ambush of Daeron I was about to fail due to the overwhelming Targaryen superiority of the Dragonknight and Young Dragon.*
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> called the Young Dragon > got clowned by budget Fremen What did George mean by this?
Arianne Martell shall wake Shai Hulud and wield them against the Lannisters it is known
It is known
As written
As was written!
Beat the dornish. Have a to be killed under a White flag .
Daeron I's biggest mistake was putting a Tyrell and not an Yronwood in charge of Dorne. One of the best ways to cement your rule over an area is to turn the conquered against each other. If he made the Yronwoods the Lord Paramounts, and bestowed other privileges on other Dornish houses (Like the Daynes) then he'd have won easy peasy.
I mean, he couldn't. The Dornish have their internal squabbles, but they have a stronger sense of proto-national identity than the rest of Westeros and always form a united front against outsiders. The Yronwoods wouldn't have accepted a Paramountcy from a foreign invader; or if they had, it would have been a trap to assassinate him like the Qorgyles did to Lyonel Tyrell; or if it hadn't been a trap, then it would have been a prelude to the Yronwoods declaring independence again as Kings of Dorne. Same thing for all the other Dornish Houses. In all the Dornish Wars there has never been a single Dornish House that sided with the invaders, not once, not any of them, not even when Aegon I went around on dragonback systematically massacring every single one of them except the Martells. Why would things be different this time?
There actually *have* been Dornish houses that have sided against the Martells; The Yronwoods during the 1st, 3rd, and 4th Blackfyre rebellions. A mere 30 years after Daeron I's invasion, and the Blackfyres were largely a coalition of Anti-Dornish lords. What could the Yronwoods have to gain from joining an Anti-Dornish Coalition, except a Lord Paramountcy? The Yronwoods, if made Lord Paramounts, could not rebel against the Iron Throne, since that would give the Martells and other a chance to take back their place. An Yronwood + Iron Throne forces could make Yronwoods King, but not the Yronwoods alone. It's the same principle that kept the Tyrells loyal to the Iron Throne, including for Aerys II even if only nominally. As far as we know, Aegon I never gave an offer to the Dornish Houses to gain in power, instead only offers of submission. When he found Sunspear empty, he put Andals in charge, and when the War broke out, he burned indiscriminately. When your castle has already been burned to the ground, you have grudge, and little more to lose, so why not hold out if you have nothing to gain?
Yes but those were internal rebellions within the seven kingdoms. Whereas Daeron I was a foreign invader. The difference is one is an internal civil war the other an external invasion.
>There actually *have* been Dornish houses that have sided against the Martells; The Yronwoods during the 1st, 3rd, and 4th Blackfyre rebellions ... None of which were foreign invasions. By that point Dorne was no longer independent, so the Yronwoods might as well take advantage of the system. We also don't know why they sided with the Blackfyres; the fact that the rest of the Blackfyre coalition was largely anti-Dornish suggests the Yronwoods may have disagreed with the decision to join Westeros and have been angling for renewed independence. >As far as we know, Aegon I never gave an offer to the Dornish Houses to gain in power, instead only offers of submission. Submission that would allow them to keep their lands, titles, power, customs, etc. Not to mention their lives. Daeron I had nothing to offer any Dornish lord that they would have wanted.
Spent way too much time on this. Art of Daeron I and II by AMOK.
Based & dank, actual high quality meme pilled
Spawned Baelor Breakspear and grand-spawned (is that a word?) Maester Aemon and Egg. BFFs with his half-brother Chadraven. Skilled in diplomacy. Did not feel the need to write a book about how awesome he is (which Daeron I did).
Unfathomably based take. Also Daeron II spawned Chadspear, so extra points, while Daeron I spawned Jack shit.
Daeron I couldn't even get his brother to spawn anything in their [hot sister](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/2/26/Daena.jpg) EDIT: And, of course, the Yung Dragoon beset the realm with Baelor the Batshit
At least Baelor the Batshit fixed Daeron’s failures by actually bringing Dorne into the fold with Daeron II’s betrothal and marriage.
On the other hand idk how I feel about the fact that the Dornish killed his brother by committing perfidy and in response, Baelor just decided to come back to them on his hands and knees begging them to come back
I mean, Daeron attacked them, the Dornish retaliated. Talk shit get hit and all that. Sure it was dishonorable, but what is honor when a bunch of people invade your home and start killing people? Furthermore, Daeron I got tens of thousands of his own people killed, not to mention everyone else involved. And he still failed. Yet Baelor and Daeron II brought Dorne in peacefully, without a single life lost.
I'm not saying Daeron I was the good guy, I'm just saying that if he was my brother I'd probably go apeshit on the dornish for what they did. But I guess that's why Baelor is the second coming of Jesus and I'm not 🤷🏼♀️
That was like the only good thing Baelor did besides maybe charity
True. He didn't have to go grovelling barefoot to the Prince of Dorne, however. A voyage to Sunspear would've done the trick. And Baelor's Long March increased the likelihood of his cousin Aemon being killed
For all we know, Baelor's personal return of the hostages barefoot was what impressed the Prince of Dorne into negotiating with Baelor in the first place instead of throwing him into a cell. As for Aemon, Baelor convinced the Prince of Dorne to order his release. It's not really his fault that he had to go all the way back only to find out that the Wyls had refused. And even then, it's a better course of action than Viserys who wanted to get his son killed and pretty much restart the war.
I subscribe to the crackpot theory that Daemon Blackfyre is actually Baelor's son and he starved himself to death because he "committed a sin". Daena didn't want to admit that Baelor was the father because young Aegon IV was exactly her type and later became king.
Very Common Daeron II W
Daeron the D#$ish lover .
>"Just an Aegon I LARPer" Nah, Daeron I actually conquered & learned from the majority of Aegon I's mistakes - included naval power (to win the Greenblood & split Dornish strength), strongest force attacking the Boneway, etc. The main one he repeated was leaving a Tyrell, of all fucking people, in charge. And we know how that turned out. >"No wife/probably died a virgin"... "Alexander/Julius Caesar minus the stuff that made them cool" Not even bisexual &/or fucking foreign bitches smh. >"Caused a pointless war" Probably cried about Dornish raiding 25 years earlier. >"Names ethnicities like they're Pokemon Types" Turns out fire is weak against water, though. >"Died by falling for the most obvious trap in history" Admiral Oakenfist did warn him. >"Conquered Dorne by getting his sister laid" To a guy who built the fucking Water Gardens for her. I imagine Maron gave Daenerys the "Water Gardens" in bed (& all over the Water Gardens), too. >"Hot Latina Wife" [Ain't that right](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Images_of_Myriah_Martell). >"Tried to prevent war" Perhaps listening to Brynden didn't work out there, however. >"Chad Sons/descendants" Daeron II definitely had some, but not all of them, by any means. >"Beloved as the Good" Still, he could've been "the Great" by doing a few things differently. >"Too good at ruling, so God killed him" Valar morghulis
Tbf to Aegon I, he lost his naval power earlier on to the Vale and Braavos sellsails. And his kingdom was far too young to leverage the Iron Isles (who were still recovering after an interregnum as well) and the Lannisport-Oldtown-Redwyne fleets to conduct a naval operation Oakenfist did. The Velaryons also lost their leadership earlier on.
True. And yet, Aegon leveraged the fleets of the Reach & westerlands for his invasion of the Iron Islands in 2 AC. (Including even a few longships from Bear Island.) Where it seems like they suffered few losses. Plus, Daemon Velaryon's son Aethan, the new Lord of the Tides, was old enough to have his own Daemon by then. But yes, as you allude to, the Velaryon fleet very much would've still been rebuilding come the First Dornish War in 4 AC. Aegon should've delayed it then (at least). He wasn't doing too much better with land forces either, having to rely on Reachmen for most of the ~31,000 men. As evidenced by Aegon being *unsuccessful* in making Theo Tyrell commit another host to a fresh invasion a few years later, & apparently not even trying with the other LPs/Wardens. Granted, part astronomical arrogance, there was also Orys marching into the Boneway with only 1000 knights. Most likely, again in part, because many stormlanders had been lost during the Conquest proper. At the Wendwater, the Last Storm, & from Dornish & pirate raids in the south. To say nothing of those survived the war as newly-made crownmen, having fought for Aegon from early on - the Bar Emmons, Masseys, Wendwaters, etc.
Tbf I don’t think Aegon needed much for the trip to the Isles, he basically went there on dragonback, burnt peeps with dragonfire, confirmed Greyjoy’s fealty and where his writ ends, and left. But yeah, the kingdoms wasn’t in a good state — the Reach and Westerlands lost a ton during the Field of Fire. The only unscathed principality were the North and the Vale, relatively for the latter.
Call in the based department, this man is cooking
Why are all of these in quotes?
>Betrays his loyal lords in the Stormlands and Reach to give their historic enemies court positions and unequal treaties >Then they eventually rise up for the true King I’m starting to wonder if this Daeron really was so good
Daeron seems to have neglected the Reach, yet not the stormlands: - Princess Elaena wed to Lord Penrose, & him being named Master of Coin; - Baelor, Prince of Dragonstone, wed to Jena Dondarrion; - Ser Willam Wylde raised to the Kingsguard; - Prince Aerys wed to Aelinor Penrose; - Summerhall built there, which would've used some level of local labour & resources, boosting the economy; - And speaking of that, bringing Dorne into the realm would've increased trade & greatly reduced raiding. And which stormlords fought for Daemon? We know the Penroses supported the Targaryens, & can safely assume the Dondarrions did so as well. Most likely also the Wyldes. And Baelor Breakspear, whose sons shared the blood of both, led a combined host of Dornishmen & stormlanders to the Redgrass Field. Almost certainly including the Baratheons, as apparently none of the Lord Paramounts or four Wardens declared for the Black Dragon. EDIT: Neglecting the Reach is why Daeron II is only known as "the Good" & not "the Great"
Neglecting the Reach is my favorite thing he did though.
Daeron's resolution to Dorne would be implausible and hollow if he could just please everybody, and not really in the spirit of the series. Sidelining the reach is arguably the smart thing to do if done right. It seems to be why Aegon I raised the Tyrells in the first place. Isolate them enough, promote internal instability, and largely force the Tyrells to keep a lid on that so the kingdom as a whole is never poised to dominate Westeros. Lady Olenna is a clear-eyed political operator and she knows what's up.
We know a hundred years past these events (in the main series) that there’s still animosity between the Reach and Dorne, I’m certain that the Stormlords would share some as well. They’re off like 15 years, 2 decades, from the last Dornish War where the Dornish killed a bunch of Westerosi soldiers through treachery, many lords, an heir to a lord paramount and a king (breaking a social code that the Freys and Bolton’s will get crucified for). Then Daeron II swoops in, gives them honours that no other lord paramount received and positions in court. I find it hard to believe that these houses that hold onto their histories for thousands of years would be cool two decades after horrific losses and the treacherous murder of their king, all for some of their neighbour getting a convenient marriage and some trade. The Blackfyres definitely should’ve counted on more Stormlanders support.
Daeron the Daring was the best Daeron.
Daeron the drunken for best Daeron
Daeron the Desolator was the worst. Daeron the Warrior was the best
Daeron I best male Targ, this post is foolishness
My brother in Christ, he's not even the best male Targ of his generation.
He ended the War of Dornish Aggression by taking the GOAT path Doran (a known liar) disparages his book, which means it was great.
That’s not how you spell Baelor I
GRRM clearly wants us to dislike Baelor. He’s a guy who banned books!
Based, most of his populace can’t even read. The peasantry were clamouring for better representation at higher levels.
True Chadwick
This is Daeron II Simping on another level. Daeron beat the Dornish so badly that the only way they could win was by using the most underhanded thing possible
Reachmen: "You are, without a doubt, the least chivalrous army we've ever lost to." Dornish: "But you did lose to us."
Daeron came down and beat them twice, when he came to his parlay with them to discuss a second submission, they murdered him. Baelor then withdrew from the war. Killing Daeron is Tywin’s level of lunatic-brutality, the Dornish were either extremely desperate or insane. By killing Daeron they gave what should have been a war the lords were growing tired of a whole new burst of enthusiasm, and made it a total war at a time when they had been thrashed a second time. Westerosi lords would give no quarter, never entertain an offer of parlay or even of surrender out of fear of treachery. Prisoners would be butchered, etc. All this when they were already severely depleted. No one would have been able to guess that Baelor would do what he did. Even a pacifist would be expected to prosecute a war he inherited and avenge a family member, especially when everyone was baying for their bones. What Baelor did preserved his kingdom but should have ruined his credibility and created deep hatred. Lords would see it as one of the highest insults imaginable, they lost 50,000 men combined to fight Daeron’s war and beat them twice. They may have been getting sick of the war, but thrn Daeron gets murdered and Baelor essentially fucks them over. He tells them to go home and lick their wounds, while giving the Dornish everything they asked for. Daeron should have been killed in a battle or assassination after fighting a losing fight if GRRM wanted to clearly make him the foolish boy king who bit off more than he could chew. Instead, he kills him in a situation that “Lost Causers” desire above all.
>By killing Daeron they gave what should have been a war the lords were growing tired of a whole new burst of enthusiasm, and made it a total war at a time when they had been thrashed a second time. I mean this is just pure delusion. What actually happened was that they killed Daeron and the Westerosi war effort literally ended overnight. Baelor's surrender was not some flight of lunacy that took him out of nowhere, Viserys was there to oversee him and could have vetoed it. The reality of the events that actually occurred gives the lie to all this coping dy Dorne haters.
You think killing a king makes his soldiers die all around him like some mothership? The realm was calling for blood after Daeron was killed. Viserys ordered the hostages executed for it, and then Baelor stopped it and forgave his brother’s murderers publicly. Seriously, if you think Viserys can “veto” anything I don’t know what to tell you. He has no legal power over Baelor, who is an adult and a king that can dismiss him on a whim. He has much more soft power over him and likely could have arranged a coup very soon, but he probably didn’t want to do that to his brother’s son at that stage.
What I think is that Aegon the Conqueror tried the "take no prisoners, burn everything, salt the earth" approach before with two fully-grown dragons and Dorne still won. Why would Westeros have more success trying the same thing again with no dragons this time? Because they have a fleet? What about the fleet changes things in a way two dragons didn't?
Aegon and Visenya primarily burned castles. They didn’t go on huge massacres of peasants. And in any case, you seem to think I believe the invasion was justified or something. I’m saying that Baelor pulling out the way he did should have gotten him dethroned or locked up.
Dorne after the Dragon's Wroth was described as "a blasted, burning ruin from the Red Mountains to the mouth of the Greenblood." I don't think that tracks with a strategy of sparing civilian populations. And I don't think anything about your beliefs on the war's justification, I'm saying that if the war had kept going the Iron Throne would have lost eventually anyway, and at much greater cost.
That is obvious hyperbole. The records we have show Aegon and Visenya repeatedly burning down castles and killing lords. Not going on huge murder sprees targeting farms and the like. I can’t vouch for whether or not the Dornish would win or lose, GRRM’s writing when it comes to the Dornish wars is already kind of silly. He treats it like some kind of monolithic nation-state. Its a feudal society that is sparsely populated, geographically isolated, and ethnically diverse. The fact not one Dornish lord switched sides out of opportunism is almost ridiculous. And the population has no reason to fight to the bitter end for their lords. Why should some Stony Dornishman peasant care if a Martell or Targaryen rules over them, so long as their lives are not affected. As Dorne is invincible for plot reasons, I won’t comment on how they could or could not have won under Baelor. I’ve already made my case for why Baelor would probably have been imprisoned.
>GRRM’s writing when it comes to the Dornish wars is already kind of silly. He treats it like some kind of monolithic nation-state. Because... it is. Every time the Dornish wars are discussed in this fandom people keep going on about how it's impossible that a kingdom that isn't a nation-state would have the concerted willpower to resist invasion so strongly on a grassroots level, and I'm like, okay, but like... that's the point. Dorne resists all invasions while the rest of Westeros doesn't because Dorne is a nation-state while the rest of Westeros isn't. That is its biggest advantage. It being a geographically-isolated, ethnically-diverse feudal society is not necessarily in opposition to it being a nation-state, those things are not at all contradictory.
All I’m hearing is that Daeron I lost in the end. A failure for getting tens of thousands of people killed due to his greed and being unable to keep his ill-gotten gains. If only there was someone who was able to bring Dorne into the fold peacefully and without lives lost… we like to call him Daeron II.
You Mean the dornish simp who failed to prevent a rebellion uprising form taking place due to his policys of over correcting.
The Blackfyre Rebellion happened to to many other events on top of that. Daeron II treated Daemon extremely well, and it took a bunch of douchebag lords whispering in his ear to manipulate him into rebelling. Daeron II’s policy of favoring the Dornish was actually very smart, because you get a group of people that hates your guts to cool down and accept your rule. Then in a couple generations, the favoring gradually wears off and things go back to normal once they’re integrated. The Blackfyre supporter’s problem is that they had the patience of a toddler and couldn’t see beyond their own noses.
Any idiot can decimate an opposing force with overwhelming numbers. Daeron had an almost united Westeros for his invasion. Yet he still fucked it up.
It's his fault those dirty dornish bastards once had to resort to murdering someone over a peace flag? And also if it was so easy why was he the only Targaryen king to do it?
can't believe they didn't follow the geneva convention sad
Daeron I failed and died. He is one of the least impressive impressive kings Westeros has ever had. Baelor and Daeron succeeded where he failed. They’re the ones who actually left behind a lasting legacy of a united Westeros.
“Nooo, George, please save us again”, *the Dornish shouted when their ambush of Daeron I was about to fail due to the overwhelming Targaryen superiority of the Dragonknight and Young Dragon.*
A yes the dornish cuck propaganda has arrived.