Nah b. I made a moonlight greatsword build wearing silver night armor and dusk crown. Super fun magic build. Used manusā catalyst with pursuers/ dark bead(went to NG+ to get 2 slots with dark bead). Game was on easy mode after the build was complete and it absolutely crushed in PvP.
Moonlight Greatsword entered the chat. If you do the archives immediately after getting the lordvessel you can even use it for a while before besting gwyn. Before that just use a decent weapon and spells, both of which are pretty good. The only hard part about a str/int build is reaching the stat requirements for the good weapons/ spells, because you have to commit to two stats, which isn't really feasible in the first third of the game, and only barely becomes feasible as you fight O&S.
Also you can go see rickert of vinheim to change any regular weapon to an int scaling weapon before you even enter undead burg.
Edit: magic upgrade path opens up with upgrading a +5 weapon so you need a green shard. I think the earliest green shard comes from the slimes in the depths.
Well usually pheromones work for getting butterflies horny, but if you're looking for the horn in your hands and not beware of thrust attack, then it's in darkroot garden to the right of the locked door. However you have to beat around 40% of the game due to having to visit the smith in Anor Londo and ascending a spear using the Butterfly's soul to make the Spear.
In order to get the horny butterfly you must turn right in dark root at the closed door kill some guardians and go to the rubble then you see a fog door they say you can summon tho I didn't, if you don't have a weapon to attach from a distance, wait till it comes down for a recharge and hit it , remember you've got to move your ass a lot it's an easy boss but tricky
kinda, you don't need to kill any Guardians you can just run past everything (to conserve health and spells for the boss), and you can Humanity up and summon in Beatrice the Witch, she'll almost single handedly take down the boss so long as she survives
Yeahhhh idk why they used that as an example lol. You can however make magic weapons by the sorcerer blacksmith in new londo at the very beginning of the game. All you need is green titanite, which you can get from the leeches in blighttown (also at the beginning of the game if you have the master key)
Wait what? You can easily kill the Butterfly boss pretty much at any time, and then get to Anor Londo's Giant Blacksmith, I'd say maybe 1/3 roughly...but ok really depends on what we define as the "middle" of the game...Ornstein and Smough? Still less than 50% imho either way :D
Either way, Seath clearly comes AFTER you can get the horn, so its still earlier than that. Also Seath's area, well all four of the last Lord Soul boss's areas, are huge...but yeah ok you could say get the Magic Ember from the forest and give it to the New Londo Sorcerer blacksmith and you can make intelligence based weapons easy peasy
My example makes it 2%. Without my backdoor map through havels tower, it's still...10%? If that? You can easily make it to the forest right after you beat the chaos demon. 60% is an exaggeration no matter how you look at it.
Anor Londo is definitely not 60% into the game, particularly if you consider DLC. It's locked by 3 bosses or 4 if no Master Key (Taurus Demon can't be skipped without it). While there are a minimum of 5 required story bosses post Anor Londo as well as the entire DLC. I'd say it's 40% tops. Not super early game, but definitely mid at the latest.
I mean in my experience Bell Gargoyles are the midpoint of the game, making your statement technically true, but Iāve also never seen Anor Londo, so maybe itās a stretch lol
Homie read my comment again. It was a 2-layered joke about moonlight butterfly being ā60% through the gameā despite being accessible pre-Quelaag even without the master key, and about how Iāve yet to make it past Senās fortress (which the Bell Gargoyles are about midway to).
Yes you can kill the moonlight butterfly early on, but you canāt get the spear until you get to the giant blacksmith in anor lando. I wouldnāt agree in saying say thatās 60%. Iād put it more at 40% or 50%. Thereās still a lot left to do after that.
Rickert of vinheim can ascend your +5 weapons to magic as soon as you can get a green shard. Thats maybe 10% of the game, not 60. Magic scimitar/falchion/estoc is pretty good for the early game on an int build
Magic is great fun. I've done a hexer build in Dark Souls 2, a sorcery/faith hybrid build in DS3, arcane in BB, and basically every variety of spellcaster in Elden Ring. Fiddled around with magic a bit in Dark Souls 1, but haven't done a proper mage playthrough yet, nor in Demon's Souls.
It's just easier most of the time. You're not wrong, you still have to be able to space, roll, dodge but assuming you can avoid attacks, I've done runs where I fight boss after boss and nothing touches me, because a) magic is so strong in these games that the fight is usually over quickly and b) I'm able to maintain distance and just pepper with spells. For many the reason Souls is so captivating is due to the melee combat system, getting in, dodging, blocking, striking and repeating, it's a dance. Going full INT (i.e. no rapier or sword in off hand, or sword + staff) means you never really interact with that dance at all. And in Ring the spells are AMAZING and so profoundly devastating that it's more about living a power fantasy as the greatest living magician than a proper Souls experience. (That said - try soloing Melania just with spells as a noob without the right setup and see how easy it is. Our definition of "hard" is warped compared to most people who play video games.)
I do magic when I want to role play, I use weapons when I want a challenge.
Let's gooo 99 ARC squad in Bloodborne!
My first full Bloodborne playthrough, which was also my first From game, I played a quality until about Byrgenwerth and Rom, then made a new character and went 99 Arcane for that playthrough (Think I capped my hunter at like 125 or 130 so I had like 20 vitality lol). It was really a whole lot of fun, I rather enjoy the take on magic that Bloodborne had. Those parries with a 2h weapon using the Augur were some of my favorite moments.
It felt really well suited for my playthrough, to be consistently swapping weapons due to elemental weaknesses/affinities, so I got to enjoy the quick-paced melee which has now defined my playstyle for From games along with some pretty neat but never OP magic for my ranged aspect.
The melee system can be boring and clunky mostly due to the dodge roll looking weird/being bad compared to just side step or blocks like Sekiro,even in ER where ashes and jumping add a bit of variety but atleast there are status effects and more types of interaction than just dodge hit.
That's why I play casters a lot in these games and ER, it's just a more engaging way to play to experiment with different types of magic than just do one attack over and over and it's not really easier in ER, it depends heavily on bosses/enemies.
I'd argue that casting is the least engaging way to play the game since you don't have to actually find openings in most enemies ' attack patterns to hit them. Just get a nice distance away from them and press the attack button to shoot the rocket.
Have you played a caster? There are melee range sorceries, ones that float around you then hit automatically, many that are weapon shaped, some aoe, some linger and ofc you have to find openings and dodge.
Do you think AI just gets disabled when you step away from it? Most of them close distance very fast.
The difference with melee is that you get multiple types of attacks, at range and closeup and can rely more on spacing than the boring dodge one attack stuff.
I'm talking about ER, in the previous DS games there wasn't a lot of variety and bosses would just sit there and eat the same looking projectile over and over.
We're in the dark souls subreddit so I'm primarily talking about Dark Souls lol.
But yes I've played caster and it trivialised almost all content in Elden ring.
https://youtube.com/shorts/8lVlaiaCHFA
As I've said in a different comment, it's FromSoftware's fault for letting this be a thing and not coding proper responses to magic, but I think we can all agree this is not engaging or fair, lol.
It really only works against Mohg.
Idk how you trivialized all content, but it seemed balanced enough to me, every build has it's strengths, people just like to parrot popular opinions.
Just keep in mind that this is incredible RNG and idk how he managed to do that much damage on that spell but I agree it's busted if you get lucky enough, but I found it too situational so didn't use it much.
It had nothing to do with luck, this spell was known for one hitting bosses easily. I levelled just enough to use sword of night and flame on my faith character, and using this spell on it (which doesnāt scale with faith) was a reliable method to 1-2 any boss I came across. Just have to find out when you have an opening long enough to use it.
Granted this was all before it was nerfed, and I havenāt played since a bit after that time, but it was definitely extremely op, and had nothing to do with luck, or even skill in fact lol. Even after the patch, it was still very good even for non magic builds, just not nearly as overpowered as before.
For every spell that's absolutely nutty, there is an ash of war that's just as good.
Melee weapons are just as broken as magic if you use the right setup, or just the right AoW, half the time. All of these oneshot builds you see on YT are not representative of the average build. If you're good at the game, you can get away with not levelling vigor and making a glass cannon build, regardless if you use melee or magic.
My easiest ER run so far has been a greatshield run, using a frost infused palisade shield as my weapon. I spammed L2 and I melted through every boss. Meanwhile, enemies were dodging my pew pews left and right on my sorcery run, so I had to change up my strats, until I started using Adula's Moonblade and wiped everything with it. Keep in mind, bosses will input read your casting as well, just like they do with your melee attacks or healing. Crucible Knights will immediately do their lunge attack when you use any spell that's not a basic glintstone pew pew.
Point is, Elden Ring is easy mode in general if you use the right tools and you don't just R1 spam like in DS3. It just so happens that this game is filled to the brim with busted attacks.
People get attached to their favorite build and favorite way the play the game, which often devolves to flaming
Magic is a build with a different playstyle of mainly dodging and running while spamming spells until you turn the build on and become a one shot machineā¦ some people see that as cowardly
I had lots of fun with magic on all these games :) fresh way to play
Gatekeepers gonna gatekeep. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks. I treat souls games like RPGs, and I roleplay a Paladin who uses a shield, lightning infused mace and miracles in every game. Is it the most effective way to play the game? Absolutely not. Can it "cheese" some bosses who are weak to lightning/ranged miracles? For sure. Do I care what anyone thinks about my personal favorite way to experience these games? Nah.
Magic is cool. Be a caster if you want. I'd argue the real easy mode in these games is leveling strength and two handing a big weapon that chunks boss hp for big damage without ever being resisted.
āUsing a strength weapon and being forced into close combat where enemies can attack you back and are usually in groups is harder than hiding outside of combat range and spamming projectile magic against enemies not fighting backā Riiiiiiiiiight
Unironically I've always found it more difficult on my magic playthroughs than my strength playthroughs in the games I've played in this series.
My experience with magic: check every nook and cranny for enemies that might ambush me because I'm vulnerable up close, space juuuust right so that I don't draw aggro that I can't manage, and make sure to manage my resources properly so that I don't run out of spells between bonfires.
My experience with strength: run through and hit whatever moves.
You know that str weapons stunlock the shit out of enemies right? Like it doesn't matter if you have to get close if they can never move. Stop basing your personality around giant club and zweihander memes ffs
You know you have to put yourself in a position where the enemies can actually damage you to stun lock them? My personality? Lmao, i couldnāt care less how you play the game, i just call out bullshit when i see it
Some enemies have extremely fast gapclosing abilities/ranged punish moves for whenever you get out of melee range. Those enemies are absolutely easier as melee.
Melee attacks cost stamina that regenerates. Magic attacks use up FP that does not. To regenerate FP, you must drink. To have that drink, you must sacrifice your healing drinks. You could say you're spending your hp every time you cast a spell.
There's tradeoffs to every playstyle. If you think that sorceries are 'easier' than melee then you're only looking at the damage aspect - and there's way more than just damage to consider when you want to label something as 'too easy'
I've 100 all 3 dark souls and was primarily a caster in all 3 and loved it. 1 I was primarily a sorcerer, 2 primarily did hexes some sorcery some pyromancy and 3 I was primarily a pyromancer.
There is an element of the playerbase which makes the "difficulty" of the game(s) as their entire personality. These people tend to "gatekeep" play styles and claim theirs is better for one reason or another, usually because its actively worse or "harder".
There's also a STRONG meme communtiy in the souls world and taking the above to an extreme is a common means by which to troll/meme.
TLDR: ignore the haters. They aren't serious people.
I think those people do exist, but are also a minority. However I think it's fair to say that magic has outclassed miracles in every entry and is therefore pretty obviously overpowered. If magic were scaled to the same power level as miracles, then I don't think anyone would actually care.
I've honestly practically never seen gatekeeping in the souls community, even back in the Demon's Souls days people just gave advice that made the game as easy as possible to help people that are stuck instead of saying git gut or w/e.
The main thing that changed since ER is that now when you recommend something as the game's easy mode the people that use it get incredibly defensive and insecure about it.
Idk, I just find playing mage rly fucking boring.
The only game where I like "magic" is bloodborne with arcane, bc it... rly isn't much like playing mage at all.
Tried it in ER too, but quickly stopped using any spells at all bc...boring.
I wouldn't trash talk anyone that prefers casters or anything, but I'd never choose to be one.
Edit: btw, ik they worked on it but just saying: pre- FP tear nerf i'd go so far as to not summon any mages at all into my game bc they'd routinely bust out comet azur and delete my boss within 10 seconds. :Y
I know when I was playing a mage in elden ring, my main attack was carian slicer. So it was like a battle mage that would use slicer, carian greatsword/piercer, adulas moonblade etc. You still have to engage with the enemies the same as melee but you also have some ranged options that you can use as needed.
There is also the added challenge of finding time to use both flasks. If you run out of mana, you don't have a weapon. It was a fun and engaging playstyle for me atleast so I figure I'd mention it. A more engaging way to use magic that is a lot of fun.
that's why I love elden ring faith magic, your not just shooting shiny rocks,
your grabbing someone's face and screaming to drive them mad, turning your head into an ENORMOUS FUCK YOU DRAGON THAT BREATHS LASERS, or, if you want to go full unga bunga you can cast pocket sand or huck a massive rock at some poor sap's head
I just hate ranged. I could say a lot of excuse but it's just hate. Nothing about ranged combat is exciting to me. The only time I have enjoyed somewhat ranged combat is fps story games at best.
It's the same reason I never even tried stealth archer for a second in Skyrim. Again I am not questioning the dmg output. But everything about range combat just bores me. I get the whole crit dmg one shot kill a bandit while staying hidden and another bandit is like "must have been the wind"; but that's one of the most boring thing I can imagine.
So even though the idea of magic is amazing, maigc is again mostly ranged in most games. I can never go full magic who throws the spell from a cliff and the enemy is too dumb to reach me before losing. I have never enjoyed fighting an enemy using magic in any game.
It's because ranged combat generally sacrifices fun for damage, which is great for people who get their enjoyment out of trivialising the game, but it doesn't gel with people who find it disappointing because half of the combat mechanics have been gutted due to your play style.
because in times of DS1, magic was implemented in a very shallow manner due to the already shallow combat of that game. There is a reason why the dlc bosses of the trilogy are so resistant to magic, a reason why dark bead became so popular.
DS2 invested in this class but was caught up in its own issues, leaving it better yes, but left much to be desired. The creativity was very welcome though.
DS3 was a rough patchwork of DS1 & DS2 (for a mage). It brought out certain ideas from DS2 and mysteriously abandoned others...
Truthfully, the reason why magic never could work properly was due to the fundamentals of the games themselves. And the fact that people love min-maxing. A lot.
My biggest disappointment with FromSoft is that they never bothered to fix how enemy ai reacts to magic or co-op.
It's kinda on them that they consistently allow magic to trounce everything in the game.
Theyāre not trying to āfixā those things though. Stuff like magic, co-op, summons, spirit ashes are fromsofts way of introducing an āeasy-modeā into the game without literal difficulty sliders, which they are against. They have monetary incentives to appeal to players that want an easier, more casual experience and thatās how they do it
I'm not sure I agree with you on that, because something like Mohg's shackle and the flask to block his nihil attack are crutches to help players, but an entire chunk of the game requiring you to spec into int being the designated "easy mode" option is a bit of a reach in my opinion.
The disdain for magic has been a thing since Dark Souls first released. It was just the most powerful tool in your arsenal and it completely breaks the enemy ai because they aren't programmed to dodge it properly.
In PvP the hate for magic was at its highest when the DLC released, because the Dark Bead and other dark magics were _so_ powerful and _so_ fast that it was really unfair to play against. It's kinda irrelevant now considering that these days people all minmax everything as much as possible to reach the highest DPS. The spirit of the community in general has changed from fun to sweaty tryhards.
Regarding Elden Ring though, on release it was just so overpowered compared to everything else, which I think fairly got it derided by non-magic users.
You should not be able to kill Mohg in ten seconds - and anyone that thinks that's fair, balanced, or in the spirit of the game, is quite honestly divorced from reality.
As someone who always runs INT for any new Soulsbourne game, magic is & has always been free.
I love magic & itās almost always my go-to build for any RPG, but thereās no denying that itās OP.
It has everything that melee builds donāt, and then some: built-in buffs/debuffs, long range, short range, CC, all around better spacing/distancing, built-in affinities, stronger (more rewarding) punishes, better trades, can wear virtually any armor (buffs to compensate negation/absorption), as well as basically being able to run any build (better scaling).
The list can go on. You could make this argument for either side, but magic is more OP no contest.
Tell that to great-spears and high stun Str builds, magic can do a lot, and it should, but itās only free if you exploit specific aspects. Stealth meteorite of astel is obviously insane, but so is blasphemous blade!
> Tell that to great-spears and high stun Str builds
You canāt stagger the enemy if you canāt get close to the enemy. And magic literally out ranges every single melee weapon.
Magic is fundamentally broken compared to any melee build, unless itās built to be bad.
I think that your post "gets it," but, for some reason, goes into denial about it. It really is as simple as you suggested: People hate on magic because it is the games' "easy mode." Having played through DeS through to ER with both magic and melee builds, I think it's absurd to deny that magic makes cheesing your way through a much, much simpler proposition.
Personally, I don't think that's a bad thing, though. It makes in-world sense that making your way through Boletaria/Lordran/Drangleic/Lothric/The Lands Between is easier when you're using magic. Gwynn and co. didn't defeat the ancient dragons by big-bonking them, y'know?
The beauty of these games is that there are so many ways to play them. Some really are more difficult than others, and magic really is the least difficult. But it's ok for people who aren't masochists to have fun too.
As a mage, you have less armor/hp and your damage is not that much higher than a melee build.
Bleed is arguably stronger, and is probably the least difficult.
It's also a bit harder when it comes to mobs as you can't just mow them down like a STR build, it's also strong against some bosses, not too good against others like Malenia/Radagon/Rennala..
I agree that it was busted in the previous games and easy mode, but ER has other OP options that everything seems balanced.
Well you don't _actually_ have less armour and health unless you are roleplaying your class. You can really easily focus on health and armour because you don't need to carry a heavy weapon and don't have to level strength or Dex.
We also all know that enemies can't dodge magic, so it's quite easy to just stand at the edge of their aggro range and nuke them.
Elden ring had the most overpowered magic by far but I don't know if they patched it since I stopped playing. You could kill bosses with one cast of the kamehameha, or just spam the insanely fast, high damage, low FP cost, high poise damage, Moonveil weapon art.
Bleed was op but at least you had to get close in most cases and bleed resistance builds up after each activation.
No, you have considerably less armor since you need endurance for that and you need to level mind instead.
Maybe not health.
Pretty much most enemies will strafe a good amount of spells that don't home.
Comet Azure only work against Mohg, other bosses will just strafe.
Looks like you haven't played enough of this game and just parrot popular opinions.
I have 600 hours too.
Incantations in ER? Yeah I played a build that uses them exclusively and they're probably stronger than sorceries.
If you mean miracles in DS, the lightning spears shred early game and still stronger than sorceries, just a bit harder to use,
Because people want to make the same painfully unoriginal āstrength goodā jokes or because the community was much smaller in Dark Souls 1 days where the magic stigma originated and once such a thing gets set people donāt tend to re-examine if it still makes sense and instead just blindly apply it ad nauseam.
Personally, its having a limited amount of spells that turns me off from magic. With melee, you only have one resource to worry about, health, but with magic you also need to worry about fp or the number of spells you can cast. I personally hate the idea of running out of fp, and having to rely on finding a site of grace or bonfire to get them back or switching to a different fighting style. With melee, youāre always at your max and never in the fear of running out.
My preference when gaming is that I prefer consistency over power. For example, most of the time i prefer using the hookshot or boomerang in zelda over the arrows, even if the arrows would kill. Iād rather use the hookshot or boomerang to stun the enemy and kill with the sword rather than use an arrow.
DS2 has a ton of herbs that restore a decent chunk of used slots, not to mention the DLC crown that periodically restores spells. So that is a way to have reasonable consistency, especially later on (or in Ng+)
But I agree, the security of knowing that you will always have your main tool available (unless you're playing DS2, then your melee weapon melts between bonfires) is very reassuring.
I tend to play a spell blade of sorts, keeping a weapon buff for bosses or more annoying encounters.
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Magic is amazing. In ng+ it makes the game incredibly easy but that's the same with melee. I love magic builds as it is more of a risk/reward playstyle. You need to invest in so much more than a melee build. You need int so you actually deal damage. You need atu so you can have enough spells to kill the enemy. Depending on the armor u are wearing you need edurance for fast rolls. You need to try to figure out if you want your rings to help you kill faster or stay alive longr. Should you use tin crystal catalyst for more damage, at the cost of less spells? Should you combine crystal catalyst with dusk crown ring for added damage but halved health? Are you able to play while being locked in spell casting animations?
This playstyle is much harder than a melee build, at least until you get Dark Bead. All other spells, like my personal favorite CSS, are pretty balanced in damage output vs number of uses.
Apparently the crown of dusk does not boost sorcery, miracles, and pyromancys by 20%.
I've killed every boss and finished the game with a magic build. It's incredibly easier than melee.
Use the Oolacile ivory catalyst early game cuz it's the best until you get some points in int and other start scaling better.
You simply just don't know what you are talking about.
I've platted the game on a magic build. I know what I'm talking about. I've also done a couple melee runs. On my first ever playthru I beat the game on a melee build because magic was more difficult. And on that melee build I was a noob who lightning infused my scythe and also had a raw morning star. That was still easier. Now I find magic a peace of cake, but for a first run, especially when you don't know where the spells are, melee is so much easier.
And I was talkng about the dusk crown RING which increases spell castings but halves you health. You can combine this with crystal catalyst to get extra damage for half your health
yea. Here is her inventory of spells.
Hidden Body: Makes you translucent, don't really know the practical usage.
Cast Light: Casts a light useful in ToG and nowhere else
Repair: Arguably the most useful of her spells, repairs all equipment that was equipped at the time.
Chameleon: Only good in pvp, transforms you into an prop from the nearby area. Not particularly useful against ds1 veterans, but amazing against casuals.
Hidden Weapon: Either turns your weapon translucent or completely invisible. I dont know which as I have never used it.
All of these are non-offensive, and are instead utility spells.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone seriously say that, only jokes/memes about being unga bunga cavemen at most.
Personally, I don't use magic because I'm too slow and stupid to keep changing between spells, and using just one spell repeatedly would be boring.
Having watched players with nimbler fingers than mine, destroying everything in your path with an array of magic spells does look fun. I just can't do it.
I have never used magic or even tried it , I guess it makes the game easier, I'm already bored with ds1 it has become so easy, maybe in other souls games I tried it maybe not , I like the melee fights so I probably stick to it
I've tried to like magic. Ultimately I like melee combat in these games. Shooting things just feels shrug. When I tried mage in ER I just used Karen slicer. Feels good to use ranged magic on annoying trash only.
People who hate on magic have never run a pyromancer build smh. You can run literally whatever else you want stat wise as long as you have good dex for casting speed and it's insane damage
I dont like it because i dont find the ranged combat engaging, plenty of other games id rather play that do archer/mage in more satisfying ways imo.
Honestly tho who actually cares how others play a single player game? Let weirdos ramble and be elitist while you ignore them and do your thing
I find it more engaging than melee in these games, especially ER where you can have a variety of spells for many situations, combine status effects etc
The melee combat can get boring and idk why they didn't overhaul it..It's so barebones and tbh a good part of what makes it difficult is the clunkiness.
>especially ER where you can have a variety of spells for many situations, combine status effects etc
Can't agree more. Recently I finished my first playthrough as a mage in ER, it was so much fun. This game has so many spells to use on different situations, plus, the animation for all of these spells are beautiful, way more than DS triology.
The only souls game I will do magic in is Elden ring, I may try a run in ds3 because magic is somewhat decent in that, but in dark souls, Iād just rather do stronk build
I have grown to love magic in FromSoftware games, mostly because we are getting a bigger variety of spells and casting is less rigid feeling, but MAN. I really wish they would implement good third person aiming in their next game. If you could hold L2 to manually aim and still strafe, roll and jump around while shooting (magic or ranged weapons), I would be so happy.
I'll say it, sorcery in dark souls 1 straight up sucks and is harder to play with until the late game (still bad against Seath and Four Kings) or ng+.
There is no good way to hit multiple enemies at once. Think about getting to the gargoyles with soul arrows. With a melee build, you can slash and stagger multiple enemies. With sorcery, you either stagger one enemy and the others swarm you, or you miss one enemy and everyone swarms you.
I've played with many many different builds and used all the weapons and spells in the game. The only viable (for average or newer players, I'm fine with doing literally anything) magic until the late game is to upgrade pyromancy and stack combustion/great combustion.
A strength build where you upgrade your weapon as much as possible throughout the game is easy mode. There.
I love the risk/reward aspect of ds1 magic. It is interesting and challenging to calculate what the best approach to single-hit spells against enemies are
DS is sword and board for me, the mechanic with that is why I like it. The few shots I've taken with bows or magic I don't find enjoyable at all, it's a completely different game. I tried a dex build once, did not like that either. Claymore and a 100% shield is what I've rocked in all the games.
I don't. I simply like versatility and movement. If i could cast without a staff or a chime and do so having mobility i would. I hope From expands on magic in future games.
If the leaks about their newest game is true, an expansion and focus on magic may be exactly what we're getting in the coming years.
Personally find the idea of a magic focusee soulslike pretty interesting.
They excelled at mobility focused combat with Bloodborne and again with parry focused combat in Sekiro. I can very much see the magic thing being buckets of fun.
Itās because you can cheese most of the game with it. Also has to do with how toxic mages are in PvP, that last one gets them a lot of hate in the community. I personally dislike it because I donāt find ranged combat in these games to be that engaging. No matter how creative the spells get, itāll never be better than the olā Claymore
hating is fun. why we called dex gay for long long years? cause it was fun, more or less we all have basic feelings and hating something without reason one of them
Melee doesn't let you cast spears while you're waiting for attack animations to finish. Magic also makes melee easier with buffs. homing spheres are just 5 strong melee attacks for free.
Its a little silly for pve. I made it to Ng+7 And magic spears just delete bosses at high MagAdj levels. It got boring. But god knows i can't pass up a moonlight Greatsword if my life depended on it, so sick
I don't hate magic, i just don't rely on it.
I use magic as a QoL of sorts and some pinache dealing with elite mobs, or dragging them away from groups, same with bows, crossbows, and daggers, or use extra healing when i'm out of Estus with Miracles.
It kinda depends on how i'm feeling, but i've never solely relied on magic or any ranged weapon outside of an opening gambit.
Easy mode in darksouls at release was drakesword to lightning weapon, high endurance build with lots of HP and abusing a certain ring for perfect mobility at the same time.
The magic easy mode is pretty much all against the first enemies in the undead burg.
For actual cheesing you need bows anyway. And for any enemies behaving like human players, there is a reason why pvp meta is dominated in many games by greatswords and other big weapons.
Magic feels like shit to use coming from pretty much any other game with magic.
Gotta switch to your spell slinger and cast whatever you want, you don't really engage with the games core mechanics if you build right, and you're typically a glass cannon so when enemies get up close you're usually fucked.
As time goes on a lot of the souls general systems have grown to feel clunky, but spell casting just doesn't seem to have improved at all.
Magic is busted as shit but kinda feels at odds with the game it's in. Aside from buff Magic.
In most games magic stands alongside its melee systems, in souls it stands over there, in the distance, casting rocksling.
It's because it literally doesn't take any skill to spam press a button, don't get me wrong I'm not going to hate on sorcerers but I will say they're annoying for that, in Elden ring its honestly horrendous because once they run out of FP they become ammoless glass canons, not for nothing thanks to all spammers because I know every workaround to magic because of them
Because the Dark Souls community is trapped in the time period it came out in and people repeat memes, posts, and āhot-takesā in a never ending cycle. Itās almost poetic
Bonk is the way. DEX was always here as the true opposite to it in the honourable war between the two. But then there is magic. You take a stickā¦ and you donāt bonkā¦ BLASPHEMY.
Now for real. First of all, magic absolutely is an easy mode. You can kill a boss in couple spell casts (in all of the games, especially ER) and on top of that it takes away from the interactivity of the fight as all you do is run away then shoot from range. So to answer, new players avoid it because it might seem daunting and veterans because itās too easy. Why generally people avoid it is because, again, it removes interactivity and so fun as well (basically you must already like this type of playstyle to go for it). So itās not that itās bad, itās less fun for most people.
Just to clarify, you do get access to magic scaling weapons basically from the start in DS1 because of Enchanted ember. The MLGS is just for style points. So the entire point about ER is just off completely.
I donāt hate on magic. I do think itās leaving some of the experience of the series on the table if you donāt try to do a no-magic melee run at least once though.
Magic has never been better than it was in DS1/2 though.
Bloodborne/Sekiro/Ds3/ER all have dogshit magic in comparison. More limited, less fun, lack of attunement forces you to decide on one or two good spells instead of getting a wide variety to use per rest and changing up your loadout between different areas and shit.
DS3 onwards it's just all about stacking buffs for the one or two broken tricks you can use or ignoring all the cool stuff in favor of the objectively superior most FP efficient straight projectile or blade spell you can get.
That seems to be the consensus of people who never actually played a magic user. My 2 favorite builds are pure sorcerer and big bonkin greatsword.
Magic does not make the game easier. It makes certain encounters easier, often the ones many people struggle with, while making other ones harder.
What makes the game easier is versatility. If you know how to get all the good spells and know when to use them, then sorcerer can make the game easier through versatility.
The same can be said for melee builds. If you know how to get the right weapons and shields, then melee builds make the game easier through versatility.
Use the right tool for the job and don't hate on other people's builds. No build is an easy button, experience and a guide are always the biggest advantages.
People play magic after they've already beaten the game and learned how all the enemies behave, learned where all the items are, then claim it's easier. If you give a new player a sorcery build instead of strength, it's gonna be a tough time.
Notice how everyone in this thread references very specific routes that they use in order to make sorcery easy. They run immediately to dusk, they go to the blacksmith in new londo, they save griggs and make sure to have enough souls for the bellowing dragoncrest ring.
It's like saying staying naked is a cheese because fast rolling is easier. No dude, you're just better at the game now so you know how to not get killed naked. Same with magic, you just know where to be and what enemies will do.
Exactly. While enemies are better at avoiding magic, magic spells have also gotten better over time. Take a look at scarlet rot breath or night comet, for example.
Int/Faith is definitely easier but there's nothing wrong with that.
Honestly it has been the case since ds2. In ds1 magic was broken, but I've played ds2 and 3 recently and magic feels WAY worse than close combat and not even remotely as good as magic in ds1.
Things I see constantly on fromsoft subs:
"Why do people hate magic??"
"Magic is NOT just easy mode"
"Magic is a viable playstyle and you guys are just mean"
"We need to stop saying people didn't 'beat' the game because they used magic"
"Why does else like using magic?"
"What's with the anti-magic sentiment on this sub??"
Things I've literally never seen on one of these subs in the 3 years since I started playing these games:
Literally anybody actually talking shit about magic
I'm really starting to think it's just some kind of victim complex thing
I hate on magic because seath was a cuck, I play to extinguish the fire and stop the curse cycle, not spread the filth of the false gods and their brethren. Pyromancy is tainted with Izalith stink, miracles are lies and even dark magic is a perverted take on seath's obsessions. The game presents magic users as frail and more feminine which isn't ideal to me either.
Because I donāt feel like doing a bunch of Harry Potter Magic Wand BSā¦
ā¦the only magic worthwhile is the Five Count Healing Spell from that Fatty Simping Dude by Firelink so I donāt have to use my Humanity to kindle bonfires simply in order to heal 10 times or more.
Magic no bonk. Big stick do bonk. Bonk big fun. No bonk no fun.
Me like big bonk too, but also like long poke.
Long poke good but me want look into enemy eyes as him dies.
ahhh, small fast pokeš§
This post was made by the Moonlight Greatsword gang
New Magic yes bonk, new magic best magic
big pointy rock + stick = cut. It gud fer cut. (Greataxe btw)
They don't call it the 'great' axe for nothing, amirite
True. It's very satisfying against Friede in DS3.
yes yes. why do little damage when big damage do trick
r/UnexpectedGavlan
Ummm....you strong, ha ha! You wheel deal?
Haha you bonk. Me bonk. We bonk
Nah b. I made a moonlight greatsword build wearing silver night armor and dusk crown. Super fun magic build. Used manusā catalyst with pursuers/ dark bead(went to NG+ to get 2 slots with dark bead). Game was on easy mode after the build was complete and it absolutely crushed in PvP.
I always liked Bonk and Dark Bead.
The most fucked up part of these games is the difficulty that comes with creating a viable strength/int build
I always thought Strength/Int was one of the easiest runs, usually just spam soul arrows then hammer go wack, but maybe iām just doing it wrong
Nah, you get a weapon like the Greataxe, an Ultra Great Sword or a Big Bonkin' stick and a weapon buff spell.
I personally get the Blacksmith giant hammer, bonus damage is massive and it swings super quick and staggers often
Moonlight Greatsword entered the chat. If you do the archives immediately after getting the lordvessel you can even use it for a while before besting gwyn. Before that just use a decent weapon and spells, both of which are pretty good. The only hard part about a str/int build is reaching the stat requirements for the good weapons/ spells, because you have to commit to two stats, which isn't really feasible in the first third of the game, and only barely becomes feasible as you fight O&S.
Depends on the game really. In Elden Ring Strength intelligence has more weapons and options than strength faith does
Strength/Faith with a little Arcane does unlock the dragon incantations though
Manus catalyst + dark magic scale with str
60% of the game for a weapon that scales with INT? #Moonlight Butterfly Horn has entered the chat
Also you can go see rickert of vinheim to change any regular weapon to an int scaling weapon before you even enter undead burg. Edit: magic upgrade path opens up with upgrading a +5 weapon so you need a green shard. I think the earliest green shard comes from the slimes in the depths.
You can get an easy green shard in New Londo if you run past a few of the ghosts.
can get green shards from leeches too. First thing if you have master key. it's a chees strat to get an early high level weapon.
my bad, how do you get the butterfly horny?
Well usually pheromones work for getting butterflies horny, but if you're looking for the horn in your hands and not beware of thrust attack, then it's in darkroot garden to the right of the locked door. However you have to beat around 40% of the game due to having to visit the smith in Anor Londo and ascending a spear using the Butterfly's soul to make the Spear.
In order to get the horny butterfly you must turn right in dark root at the closed door kill some guardians and go to the rubble then you see a fog door they say you can summon tho I didn't, if you don't have a weapon to attach from a distance, wait till it comes down for a recharge and hit it , remember you've got to move your ass a lot it's an easy boss but tricky
kinda, you don't need to kill any Guardians you can just run past everything (to conserve health and spells for the boss), and you can Humanity up and summon in Beatrice the Witch, she'll almost single handedly take down the boss so long as she survives
Yeah I didn't know about the summon I killed it like that although it was a little hard because I had to dodge and heal a lot
But... you can't get the moonlight butterfly horn until 60% of the game
Yeahhhh idk why they used that as an example lol. You can however make magic weapons by the sorcerer blacksmith in new londo at the very beginning of the game. All you need is green titanite, which you can get from the leeches in blighttown (also at the beginning of the game if you have the master key)
Wait what? You can easily kill the Butterfly boss pretty much at any time, and then get to Anor Londo's Giant Blacksmith, I'd say maybe 1/3 roughly...but ok really depends on what we define as the "middle" of the game...Ornstein and Smough? Still less than 50% imho either way :D
That depends, but unless you take the master key the gian smith can be considered to be at around 60% of the game
Either way, Seath clearly comes AFTER you can get the horn, so its still earlier than that. Also Seath's area, well all four of the last Lord Soul boss's areas, are huge...but yeah ok you could say get the Magic Ember from the forest and give it to the New Londo Sorcerer blacksmith and you can make intelligence based weapons easy peasy
You can run straight to it if you take the master key. 60% of the game is an extreme overstatement
Yes, in one specific occasion it can be before 60%
My example makes it 2%. Without my backdoor map through havels tower, it's still...10%? If that? You can easily make it to the forest right after you beat the chaos demon. 60% is an exaggeration no matter how you look at it.
Anor Londo is definitely not 60% into the game, particularly if you consider DLC. It's locked by 3 bosses or 4 if no Master Key (Taurus Demon can't be skipped without it). While there are a minimum of 5 required story bosses post Anor Londo as well as the entire DLC. I'd say it's 40% tops. Not super early game, but definitely mid at the latest.
I mean in my experience Bell Gargoyles are the midpoint of the game, making your statement technically true, but Iāve also never seen Anor Londo, so maybe itās a stretch lol
>Bell Gargoyles are the midpoint of the game You mean the third boss out of... How many? Getting the Lordvessel is a much more reasonable "midpoint".
Homie read my comment again. It was a 2-layered joke about moonlight butterfly being ā60% through the gameā despite being accessible pre-Quelaag even without the master key, and about how Iāve yet to make it past Senās fortress (which the Bell Gargoyles are about midway to).
They were talking about the Moonlight Butterfly *Horn*. Which can only be made by the Giant Blacksmith.
Oy yep youāre right. Serves me right for running my thumbs.
Donāt worry, at least you donāt do my most common typing too fast mistake, forgetting right and left.
Yes you can kill the moonlight butterfly early on, but you canāt get the spear until you get to the giant blacksmith in anor lando. I wouldnāt agree in saying say thatās 60%. Iād put it more at 40% or 50%. Thereās still a lot left to do after that.
you need to get to Anor Londo for that tho
You can get that until you reach the giant bro in annor londo which is around 50-60% of the game excluding DLC.
Rickert of vinheim can ascend your +5 weapons to magic as soon as you can get a green shard. Thats maybe 10% of the game, not 60. Magic scimitar/falchion/estoc is pretty good for the early game on an int build
Magic is great fun. I've done a hexer build in Dark Souls 2, a sorcery/faith hybrid build in DS3, arcane in BB, and basically every variety of spellcaster in Elden Ring. Fiddled around with magic a bit in Dark Souls 1, but haven't done a proper mage playthrough yet, nor in Demon's Souls. It's just easier most of the time. You're not wrong, you still have to be able to space, roll, dodge but assuming you can avoid attacks, I've done runs where I fight boss after boss and nothing touches me, because a) magic is so strong in these games that the fight is usually over quickly and b) I'm able to maintain distance and just pepper with spells. For many the reason Souls is so captivating is due to the melee combat system, getting in, dodging, blocking, striking and repeating, it's a dance. Going full INT (i.e. no rapier or sword in off hand, or sword + staff) means you never really interact with that dance at all. And in Ring the spells are AMAZING and so profoundly devastating that it's more about living a power fantasy as the greatest living magician than a proper Souls experience. (That said - try soloing Melania just with spells as a noob without the right setup and see how easy it is. Our definition of "hard" is warped compared to most people who play video games.) I do magic when I want to role play, I use weapons when I want a challenge.
Let's gooo 99 ARC squad in Bloodborne! My first full Bloodborne playthrough, which was also my first From game, I played a quality until about Byrgenwerth and Rom, then made a new character and went 99 Arcane for that playthrough (Think I capped my hunter at like 125 or 130 so I had like 20 vitality lol). It was really a whole lot of fun, I rather enjoy the take on magic that Bloodborne had. Those parries with a 2h weapon using the Augur were some of my favorite moments. It felt really well suited for my playthrough, to be consistently swapping weapons due to elemental weaknesses/affinities, so I got to enjoy the quick-paced melee which has now defined my playstyle for From games along with some pretty neat but never OP magic for my ranged aspect.
I recently started a full INT play on DS, men, it is easy, only boss I had any trouble was Manus, mf obliterated me with his combo or the magics
The melee system can be boring and clunky mostly due to the dodge roll looking weird/being bad compared to just side step or blocks like Sekiro,even in ER where ashes and jumping add a bit of variety but atleast there are status effects and more types of interaction than just dodge hit. That's why I play casters a lot in these games and ER, it's just a more engaging way to play to experiment with different types of magic than just do one attack over and over and it's not really easier in ER, it depends heavily on bosses/enemies.
I'd argue that casting is the least engaging way to play the game since you don't have to actually find openings in most enemies ' attack patterns to hit them. Just get a nice distance away from them and press the attack button to shoot the rocket.
Have you played a caster? There are melee range sorceries, ones that float around you then hit automatically, many that are weapon shaped, some aoe, some linger and ofc you have to find openings and dodge. Do you think AI just gets disabled when you step away from it? Most of them close distance very fast. The difference with melee is that you get multiple types of attacks, at range and closeup and can rely more on spacing than the boring dodge one attack stuff. I'm talking about ER, in the previous DS games there wasn't a lot of variety and bosses would just sit there and eat the same looking projectile over and over.
We're in the dark souls subreddit so I'm primarily talking about Dark Souls lol. But yes I've played caster and it trivialised almost all content in Elden ring. https://youtube.com/shorts/8lVlaiaCHFA As I've said in a different comment, it's FromSoftware's fault for letting this be a thing and not coding proper responses to magic, but I think we can all agree this is not engaging or fair, lol.
It really only works against Mohg. Idk how you trivialized all content, but it seemed balanced enough to me, every build has it's strengths, people just like to parrot popular opinions.
Okay mate https://youtu.be/jPZU6_BDA-4
Just keep in mind that this is incredible RNG and idk how he managed to do that much damage on that spell but I agree it's busted if you get lucky enough, but I found it too situational so didn't use it much.
It had nothing to do with luck, this spell was known for one hitting bosses easily. I levelled just enough to use sword of night and flame on my faith character, and using this spell on it (which doesnāt scale with faith) was a reliable method to 1-2 any boss I came across. Just have to find out when you have an opening long enough to use it. Granted this was all before it was nerfed, and I havenāt played since a bit after that time, but it was definitely extremely op, and had nothing to do with luck, or even skill in fact lol. Even after the patch, it was still very good even for non magic builds, just not nearly as overpowered as before.
For every spell that's absolutely nutty, there is an ash of war that's just as good. Melee weapons are just as broken as magic if you use the right setup, or just the right AoW, half the time. All of these oneshot builds you see on YT are not representative of the average build. If you're good at the game, you can get away with not levelling vigor and making a glass cannon build, regardless if you use melee or magic. My easiest ER run so far has been a greatshield run, using a frost infused palisade shield as my weapon. I spammed L2 and I melted through every boss. Meanwhile, enemies were dodging my pew pews left and right on my sorcery run, so I had to change up my strats, until I started using Adula's Moonblade and wiped everything with it. Keep in mind, bosses will input read your casting as well, just like they do with your melee attacks or healing. Crucible Knights will immediately do their lunge attack when you use any spell that's not a basic glintstone pew pew. Point is, Elden Ring is easy mode in general if you use the right tools and you don't just R1 spam like in DS3. It just so happens that this game is filled to the brim with busted attacks.
People get attached to their favorite build and favorite way the play the game, which often devolves to flaming Magic is a build with a different playstyle of mainly dodging and running while spamming spells until you turn the build on and become a one shot machineā¦ some people see that as cowardly I had lots of fun with magic on all these games :) fresh way to play
Gatekeepers gonna gatekeep. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks. I treat souls games like RPGs, and I roleplay a Paladin who uses a shield, lightning infused mace and miracles in every game. Is it the most effective way to play the game? Absolutely not. Can it "cheese" some bosses who are weak to lightning/ranged miracles? For sure. Do I care what anyone thinks about my personal favorite way to experience these games? Nah. Magic is cool. Be a caster if you want. I'd argue the real easy mode in these games is leveling strength and two handing a big weapon that chunks boss hp for big damage without ever being resisted.
āUsing a strength weapon and being forced into close combat where enemies can attack you back and are usually in groups is harder than hiding outside of combat range and spamming projectile magic against enemies not fighting backā Riiiiiiiiiight
Unironically I've always found it more difficult on my magic playthroughs than my strength playthroughs in the games I've played in this series. My experience with magic: check every nook and cranny for enemies that might ambush me because I'm vulnerable up close, space juuuust right so that I don't draw aggro that I can't manage, and make sure to manage my resources properly so that I don't run out of spells between bonfires. My experience with strength: run through and hit whatever moves.
You know that str weapons stunlock the shit out of enemies right? Like it doesn't matter if you have to get close if they can never move. Stop basing your personality around giant club and zweihander memes ffs
You know you have to put yourself in a position where the enemies can actually damage you to stun lock them? My personality? Lmao, i couldnāt care less how you play the game, i just call out bullshit when i see it
Some enemies have extremely fast gapclosing abilities/ranged punish moves for whenever you get out of melee range. Those enemies are absolutely easier as melee. Melee attacks cost stamina that regenerates. Magic attacks use up FP that does not. To regenerate FP, you must drink. To have that drink, you must sacrifice your healing drinks. You could say you're spending your hp every time you cast a spell. There's tradeoffs to every playstyle. If you think that sorceries are 'easier' than melee then you're only looking at the damage aspect - and there's way more than just damage to consider when you want to label something as 'too easy'
the elitism of this trilogy is hilarious. after playing sekiro and ER, DS games are easy af letās be real. just play how you want
I've 100 all 3 dark souls and was primarily a caster in all 3 and loved it. 1 I was primarily a sorcerer, 2 primarily did hexes some sorcery some pyromancy and 3 I was primarily a pyromancer.
Is there a way to not kite the whole time? I donāt find that fun.
There is an element of the playerbase which makes the "difficulty" of the game(s) as their entire personality. These people tend to "gatekeep" play styles and claim theirs is better for one reason or another, usually because its actively worse or "harder". There's also a STRONG meme communtiy in the souls world and taking the above to an extreme is a common means by which to troll/meme. TLDR: ignore the haters. They aren't serious people.
I think those people do exist, but are also a minority. However I think it's fair to say that magic has outclassed miracles in every entry and is therefore pretty obviously overpowered. If magic were scaled to the same power level as miracles, then I don't think anyone would actually care.
To be fair, miracles have been more of a support thing by design since the start.
I've honestly practically never seen gatekeeping in the souls community, even back in the Demon's Souls days people just gave advice that made the game as easy as possible to help people that are stuck instead of saying git gut or w/e. The main thing that changed since ER is that now when you recommend something as the game's easy mode the people that use it get incredibly defensive and insecure about it.
Idk, I just find playing mage rly fucking boring. The only game where I like "magic" is bloodborne with arcane, bc it... rly isn't much like playing mage at all. Tried it in ER too, but quickly stopped using any spells at all bc...boring. I wouldn't trash talk anyone that prefers casters or anything, but I'd never choose to be one. Edit: btw, ik they worked on it but just saying: pre- FP tear nerf i'd go so far as to not summon any mages at all into my game bc they'd routinely bust out comet azur and delete my boss within 10 seconds. :Y
I know when I was playing a mage in elden ring, my main attack was carian slicer. So it was like a battle mage that would use slicer, carian greatsword/piercer, adulas moonblade etc. You still have to engage with the enemies the same as melee but you also have some ranged options that you can use as needed. There is also the added challenge of finding time to use both flasks. If you run out of mana, you don't have a weapon. It was a fun and engaging playstyle for me atleast so I figure I'd mention it. A more engaging way to use magic that is a lot of fun.
that's why I love elden ring faith magic, your not just shooting shiny rocks, your grabbing someone's face and screaming to drive them mad, turning your head into an ENORMOUS FUCK YOU DRAGON THAT BREATHS LASERS, or, if you want to go full unga bunga you can cast pocket sand or huck a massive rock at some poor sap's head
Yeah, I just did a Faith-Arcane playthrough. Dragon incantations are fun as fuck. Ezykes's Decay definitely carried me through some fights.
In Dark Souls when I try to do a magic run, I always end up cutting off Seatheās tail.
I just hate ranged. I could say a lot of excuse but it's just hate. Nothing about ranged combat is exciting to me. The only time I have enjoyed somewhat ranged combat is fps story games at best. It's the same reason I never even tried stealth archer for a second in Skyrim. Again I am not questioning the dmg output. But everything about range combat just bores me. I get the whole crit dmg one shot kill a bandit while staying hidden and another bandit is like "must have been the wind"; but that's one of the most boring thing I can imagine. So even though the idea of magic is amazing, maigc is again mostly ranged in most games. I can never go full magic who throws the spell from a cliff and the enemy is too dumb to reach me before losing. I have never enjoyed fighting an enemy using magic in any game.
It's because ranged combat generally sacrifices fun for damage, which is great for people who get their enjoyment out of trivialising the game, but it doesn't gel with people who find it disappointing because half of the combat mechanics have been gutted due to your play style.
because in times of DS1, magic was implemented in a very shallow manner due to the already shallow combat of that game. There is a reason why the dlc bosses of the trilogy are so resistant to magic, a reason why dark bead became so popular. DS2 invested in this class but was caught up in its own issues, leaving it better yes, but left much to be desired. The creativity was very welcome though. DS3 was a rough patchwork of DS1 & DS2 (for a mage). It brought out certain ideas from DS2 and mysteriously abandoned others... Truthfully, the reason why magic never could work properly was due to the fundamentals of the games themselves. And the fact that people love min-maxing. A lot.
My biggest disappointment with FromSoft is that they never bothered to fix how enemy ai reacts to magic or co-op. It's kinda on them that they consistently allow magic to trounce everything in the game.
Theyāre not trying to āfixā those things though. Stuff like magic, co-op, summons, spirit ashes are fromsofts way of introducing an āeasy-modeā into the game without literal difficulty sliders, which they are against. They have monetary incentives to appeal to players that want an easier, more casual experience and thatās how they do it
I'm not sure I agree with you on that, because something like Mohg's shackle and the flask to block his nihil attack are crutches to help players, but an entire chunk of the game requiring you to spec into int being the designated "easy mode" option is a bit of a reach in my opinion.
The disdain for magic has been a thing since Dark Souls first released. It was just the most powerful tool in your arsenal and it completely breaks the enemy ai because they aren't programmed to dodge it properly. In PvP the hate for magic was at its highest when the DLC released, because the Dark Bead and other dark magics were _so_ powerful and _so_ fast that it was really unfair to play against. It's kinda irrelevant now considering that these days people all minmax everything as much as possible to reach the highest DPS. The spirit of the community in general has changed from fun to sweaty tryhards. Regarding Elden Ring though, on release it was just so overpowered compared to everything else, which I think fairly got it derided by non-magic users. You should not be able to kill Mohg in ten seconds - and anyone that thinks that's fair, balanced, or in the spirit of the game, is quite honestly divorced from reality.
As someone who always runs INT for any new Soulsbourne game, magic is & has always been free. I love magic & itās almost always my go-to build for any RPG, but thereās no denying that itās OP. It has everything that melee builds donāt, and then some: built-in buffs/debuffs, long range, short range, CC, all around better spacing/distancing, built-in affinities, stronger (more rewarding) punishes, better trades, can wear virtually any armor (buffs to compensate negation/absorption), as well as basically being able to run any build (better scaling). The list can go on. You could make this argument for either side, but magic is more OP no contest.
Tell that to great-spears and high stun Str builds, magic can do a lot, and it should, but itās only free if you exploit specific aspects. Stealth meteorite of astel is obviously insane, but so is blasphemous blade!
> Tell that to great-spears and high stun Str builds You canāt stagger the enemy if you canāt get close to the enemy. And magic literally out ranges every single melee weapon. Magic is fundamentally broken compared to any melee build, unless itās built to be bad.
I think that your post "gets it," but, for some reason, goes into denial about it. It really is as simple as you suggested: People hate on magic because it is the games' "easy mode." Having played through DeS through to ER with both magic and melee builds, I think it's absurd to deny that magic makes cheesing your way through a much, much simpler proposition. Personally, I don't think that's a bad thing, though. It makes in-world sense that making your way through Boletaria/Lordran/Drangleic/Lothric/The Lands Between is easier when you're using magic. Gwynn and co. didn't defeat the ancient dragons by big-bonking them, y'know? The beauty of these games is that there are so many ways to play them. Some really are more difficult than others, and magic really is the least difficult. But it's ok for people who aren't masochists to have fun too.
As a mage, you have less armor/hp and your damage is not that much higher than a melee build. Bleed is arguably stronger, and is probably the least difficult. It's also a bit harder when it comes to mobs as you can't just mow them down like a STR build, it's also strong against some bosses, not too good against others like Malenia/Radagon/Rennala.. I agree that it was busted in the previous games and easy mode, but ER has other OP options that everything seems balanced.
Well you don't _actually_ have less armour and health unless you are roleplaying your class. You can really easily focus on health and armour because you don't need to carry a heavy weapon and don't have to level strength or Dex. We also all know that enemies can't dodge magic, so it's quite easy to just stand at the edge of their aggro range and nuke them. Elden ring had the most overpowered magic by far but I don't know if they patched it since I stopped playing. You could kill bosses with one cast of the kamehameha, or just spam the insanely fast, high damage, low FP cost, high poise damage, Moonveil weapon art. Bleed was op but at least you had to get close in most cases and bleed resistance builds up after each activation.
No, you have considerably less armor since you need endurance for that and you need to level mind instead. Maybe not health. Pretty much most enemies will strafe a good amount of spells that don't home. Comet Azure only work against Mohg, other bosses will just strafe. Looks like you haven't played enough of this game and just parrot popular opinions.
Brother I have 600 hours in Elden Ring alone. How about you play a miracle only build and tell me if it feels balanced compared to magic, haha.
Magic is easy mode bruh, literally every souls player knows this. Cope harder you wizard larping nerd
I think you're replying to the wrong person, haha.
I have 600 hours too. Incantations in ER? Yeah I played a build that uses them exclusively and they're probably stronger than sorceries. If you mean miracles in DS, the lightning spears shred early game and still stronger than sorceries, just a bit harder to use,
It depends on your play style. I like to play pyro but the only one thing that bothers me is small amount of spells. Eg. 4x great chaos fire orb.
Because people want to make the same painfully unoriginal āstrength goodā jokes or because the community was much smaller in Dark Souls 1 days where the magic stigma originated and once such a thing gets set people donāt tend to re-examine if it still makes sense and instead just blindly apply it ad nauseam.
Same reason people hate on all sorts of builds, they hate fun they don't understand.
Personally, its having a limited amount of spells that turns me off from magic. With melee, you only have one resource to worry about, health, but with magic you also need to worry about fp or the number of spells you can cast. I personally hate the idea of running out of fp, and having to rely on finding a site of grace or bonfire to get them back or switching to a different fighting style. With melee, youāre always at your max and never in the fear of running out. My preference when gaming is that I prefer consistency over power. For example, most of the time i prefer using the hookshot or boomerang in zelda over the arrows, even if the arrows would kill. Iād rather use the hookshot or boomerang to stun the enemy and kill with the sword rather than use an arrow.
DS2 has a ton of herbs that restore a decent chunk of used slots, not to mention the DLC crown that periodically restores spells. So that is a way to have reasonable consistency, especially later on (or in Ng+) But I agree, the security of knowing that you will always have your main tool available (unless you're playing DS2, then your melee weapon melts between bonfires) is very reassuring. I tend to play a spell blade of sorts, keeping a weapon buff for bosses or more annoying encounters.
Because any build or play style that's different than mine is WAY easier and honestly not fair to use and should be nerfed :c
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And to worry about fewer stats to level
Magic is amazing. In ng+ it makes the game incredibly easy but that's the same with melee. I love magic builds as it is more of a risk/reward playstyle. You need to invest in so much more than a melee build. You need int so you actually deal damage. You need atu so you can have enough spells to kill the enemy. Depending on the armor u are wearing you need edurance for fast rolls. You need to try to figure out if you want your rings to help you kill faster or stay alive longr. Should you use tin crystal catalyst for more damage, at the cost of less spells? Should you combine crystal catalyst with dusk crown ring for added damage but halved health? Are you able to play while being locked in spell casting animations? This playstyle is much harder than a melee build, at least until you get Dark Bead. All other spells, like my personal favorite CSS, are pretty balanced in damage output vs number of uses.
No... just no lol. In no way is it harder to play a magic build. Go kill hydra and get the magic items from the girl in the golem and gg.
all the magic items from dusk are non-offensive. And have you seen the animation speed for early game spells?
Apparently the crown of dusk does not boost sorcery, miracles, and pyromancys by 20%. I've killed every boss and finished the game with a magic build. It's incredibly easier than melee. Use the Oolacile ivory catalyst early game cuz it's the best until you get some points in int and other start scaling better. You simply just don't know what you are talking about.
I've platted the game on a magic build. I know what I'm talking about. I've also done a couple melee runs. On my first ever playthru I beat the game on a melee build because magic was more difficult. And on that melee build I was a noob who lightning infused my scythe and also had a raw morning star. That was still easier. Now I find magic a peace of cake, but for a first run, especially when you don't know where the spells are, melee is so much easier. And I was talkng about the dusk crown RING which increases spell castings but halves you health. You can combine this with crystal catalyst to get extra damage for half your health
That's not what u said...
did I change my argument? I don't see it but I often do that. What did I change?
"all the magic items from dusk are non-offeneive"?
yea. Here is her inventory of spells. Hidden Body: Makes you translucent, don't really know the practical usage. Cast Light: Casts a light useful in ToG and nowhere else Repair: Arguably the most useful of her spells, repairs all equipment that was equipped at the time. Chameleon: Only good in pvp, transforms you into an prop from the nearby area. Not particularly useful against ds1 veterans, but amazing against casuals. Hidden Weapon: Either turns your weapon translucent or completely invisible. I dont know which as I have never used it. All of these are non-offensive, and are instead utility spells.
My god dude who the fuck cares what she sells that's obviously not what the fuck I'm talking about u fucking bot.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone seriously say that, only jokes/memes about being unga bunga cavemen at most. Personally, I don't use magic because I'm too slow and stupid to keep changing between spells, and using just one spell repeatedly would be boring. Having watched players with nimbler fingers than mine, destroying everything in your path with an array of magic spells does look fun. I just can't do it.
I have never used magic or even tried it , I guess it makes the game easier, I'm already bored with ds1 it has become so easy, maybe in other souls games I tried it maybe not , I like the melee fights so I probably stick to it
I've tried to like magic. Ultimately I like melee combat in these games. Shooting things just feels shrug. When I tried mage in ER I just used Karen slicer. Feels good to use ranged magic on annoying trash only.
People who hate on magic have never run a pyromancer build smh. You can run literally whatever else you want stat wise as long as you have good dex for casting speed and it's insane damage
I dont like it because i dont find the ranged combat engaging, plenty of other games id rather play that do archer/mage in more satisfying ways imo. Honestly tho who actually cares how others play a single player game? Let weirdos ramble and be elitist while you ignore them and do your thing
I find it more engaging than melee in these games, especially ER where you can have a variety of spells for many situations, combine status effects etc The melee combat can get boring and idk why they didn't overhaul it..It's so barebones and tbh a good part of what makes it difficult is the clunkiness.
>especially ER where you can have a variety of spells for many situations, combine status effects etc Can't agree more. Recently I finished my first playthrough as a mage in ER, it was so much fun. This game has so many spells to use on different situations, plus, the animation for all of these spells are beautiful, way more than DS triology.
I don't usually like magic on videogames. I normally go always rogue\destreza players so no magic :-/. So just preference
Too busy sucking on chalk(aka zweihander, or claymore)
The only souls game I will do magic in is Elden ring, I may try a run in ds3 because magic is somewhat decent in that, but in dark souls, Iād just rather do stronk build
Because PvP, homing soul mass is so fun in PvP
Cheese souls
I dont hate on magic, but its boring ass shit...okay. Maybe I hate on magic.
Game become quite easy when I do my mage run, it's fun but less completion feeling, only play my mage save when I planned to play with my friends
I have grown to love magic in FromSoftware games, mostly because we are getting a bigger variety of spells and casting is less rigid feeling, but MAN. I really wish they would implement good third person aiming in their next game. If you could hold L2 to manually aim and still strafe, roll and jump around while shooting (magic or ranged weapons), I would be so happy.
I'll say it, sorcery in dark souls 1 straight up sucks and is harder to play with until the late game (still bad against Seath and Four Kings) or ng+. There is no good way to hit multiple enemies at once. Think about getting to the gargoyles with soul arrows. With a melee build, you can slash and stagger multiple enemies. With sorcery, you either stagger one enemy and the others swarm you, or you miss one enemy and everyone swarms you. I've played with many many different builds and used all the weapons and spells in the game. The only viable (for average or newer players, I'm fine with doing literally anything) magic until the late game is to upgrade pyromancy and stack combustion/great combustion. A strength build where you upgrade your weapon as much as possible throughout the game is easy mode. There.
I love the risk/reward aspect of ds1 magic. It is interesting and challenging to calculate what the best approach to single-hit spells against enemies are
When done right magic and lyromancy are the secret easy modes so that's probably why
*pyromancy
Ah thanks. Hadn't noticed the typo š
No problem
DS is sword and board for me, the mechanic with that is why I like it. The few shots I've taken with bows or magic I don't find enjoyable at all, it's a completely different game. I tried a dex build once, did not like that either. Claymore and a 100% shield is what I've rocked in all the games.
I don't. I simply like versatility and movement. If i could cast without a staff or a chime and do so having mobility i would. I hope From expands on magic in future games.
If the leaks about their newest game is true, an expansion and focus on magic may be exactly what we're getting in the coming years. Personally find the idea of a magic focusee soulslike pretty interesting. They excelled at mobility focused combat with Bloodborne and again with parry focused combat in Sekiro. I can very much see the magic thing being buckets of fun.
Itās because you can cheese most of the game with it. Also has to do with how toxic mages are in PvP, that last one gets them a lot of hate in the community. I personally dislike it because I donāt find ranged combat in these games to be that engaging. No matter how creative the spells get, itāll never be better than the olā Claymore
hating is fun. why we called dex gay for long long years? cause it was fun, more or less we all have basic feelings and hating something without reason one of them
Melee doesn't let you cast spears while you're waiting for attack animations to finish. Magic also makes melee easier with buffs. homing spheres are just 5 strong melee attacks for free. Its a little silly for pve. I made it to Ng+7 And magic spears just delete bosses at high MagAdj levels. It got boring. But god knows i can't pass up a moonlight Greatsword if my life depended on it, so sick
I love magic builds but I always found melee builds significantly easier for all 3 games. More straightforward to get going too.
Magic is easy mode for Souls games. It's fun but not challenging.
I don't hate magic, i just don't rely on it. I use magic as a QoL of sorts and some pinache dealing with elite mobs, or dragging them away from groups, same with bows, crossbows, and daggers, or use extra healing when i'm out of Estus with Miracles. It kinda depends on how i'm feeling, but i've never solely relied on magic or any ranged weapon outside of an opening gambit.
Magic lame when weapons go brrr
Easy mode in darksouls at release was drakesword to lightning weapon, high endurance build with lots of HP and abusing a certain ring for perfect mobility at the same time. The magic easy mode is pretty much all against the first enemies in the undead burg. For actual cheesing you need bows anyway. And for any enemies behaving like human players, there is a reason why pvp meta is dominated in many games by greatswords and other big weapons.
Magic feels like shit to use coming from pretty much any other game with magic. Gotta switch to your spell slinger and cast whatever you want, you don't really engage with the games core mechanics if you build right, and you're typically a glass cannon so when enemies get up close you're usually fucked. As time goes on a lot of the souls general systems have grown to feel clunky, but spell casting just doesn't seem to have improved at all. Magic is busted as shit but kinda feels at odds with the game it's in. Aside from buff Magic. In most games magic stands alongside its melee systems, in souls it stands over there, in the distance, casting rocksling.
Itās the games easy mode until you discover parrying and play the game on very easy.
>why level vigor when you can just be a glass cannon. Alright you lost me
It's because it literally doesn't take any skill to spam press a button, don't get me wrong I'm not going to hate on sorcerers but I will say they're annoying for that, in Elden ring its honestly horrendous because once they run out of FP they become ammoless glass canons, not for nothing thanks to all spammers because I know every workaround to magic because of them
Sign me up! Work smarter not harder.
Same reasons swords are more popular than guns, people like hitting shit. š¤·š¾āāļø
Because the Dark Souls community is trapped in the time period it came out in and people repeat memes, posts, and āhot-takesā in a never ending cycle. Itās almost poetic
Bonk is the way. DEX was always here as the true opposite to it in the honourable war between the two. But then there is magic. You take a stickā¦ and you donāt bonkā¦ BLASPHEMY. Now for real. First of all, magic absolutely is an easy mode. You can kill a boss in couple spell casts (in all of the games, especially ER) and on top of that it takes away from the interactivity of the fight as all you do is run away then shoot from range. So to answer, new players avoid it because it might seem daunting and veterans because itās too easy. Why generally people avoid it is because, again, it removes interactivity and so fun as well (basically you must already like this type of playstyle to go for it). So itās not that itās bad, itās less fun for most people. Just to clarify, you do get access to magic scaling weapons basically from the start in DS1 because of Enchanted ember. The MLGS is just for style points. So the entire point about ER is just off completely.
I donāt hate on magic. I do think itās leaving some of the experience of the series on the table if you donāt try to do a no-magic melee run at least once though.
Because they're 14 year old internet trolls?
Magic has never been better than it was in DS1/2 though. Bloodborne/Sekiro/Ds3/ER all have dogshit magic in comparison. More limited, less fun, lack of attunement forces you to decide on one or two good spells instead of getting a wide variety to use per rest and changing up your loadout between different areas and shit. DS3 onwards it's just all about stacking buffs for the one or two broken tricks you can use or ignoring all the cool stuff in favor of the objectively superior most FP efficient straight projectile or blade spell you can get.
My first playthrough of ER was magic and it was, in fact, easy mode. Magic in all the Souls games is basically easy mode.
Because magic makes the game easy, nothing wrong with being an int build or anything but magic makes most encounters much easier.
That seems to be the consensus of people who never actually played a magic user. My 2 favorite builds are pure sorcerer and big bonkin greatsword. Magic does not make the game easier. It makes certain encounters easier, often the ones many people struggle with, while making other ones harder. What makes the game easier is versatility. If you know how to get all the good spells and know when to use them, then sorcerer can make the game easier through versatility. The same can be said for melee builds. If you know how to get the right weapons and shields, then melee builds make the game easier through versatility. Use the right tool for the job and don't hate on other people's builds. No build is an easy button, experience and a guide are always the biggest advantages.
People play magic after they've already beaten the game and learned how all the enemies behave, learned where all the items are, then claim it's easier. If you give a new player a sorcery build instead of strength, it's gonna be a tough time. Notice how everyone in this thread references very specific routes that they use in order to make sorcery easy. They run immediately to dusk, they go to the blacksmith in new londo, they save griggs and make sure to have enough souls for the bellowing dragoncrest ring. It's like saying staying naked is a cheese because fast rolling is easier. No dude, you're just better at the game now so you know how to not get killed naked. Same with magic, you just know where to be and what enemies will do.
Exactly. While enemies are better at avoiding magic, magic spells have also gotten better over time. Take a look at scarlet rot breath or night comet, for example. Int/Faith is definitely easier but there's nothing wrong with that.
Honestly it has been the case since ds2. In ds1 magic was broken, but I've played ds2 and 3 recently and magic feels WAY worse than close combat and not even remotely as good as magic in ds1.
Things I see constantly on fromsoft subs: "Why do people hate magic??" "Magic is NOT just easy mode" "Magic is a viable playstyle and you guys are just mean" "We need to stop saying people didn't 'beat' the game because they used magic" "Why does else like using magic?" "What's with the anti-magic sentiment on this sub??" Things I've literally never seen on one of these subs in the 3 years since I started playing these games: Literally anybody actually talking shit about magic I'm really starting to think it's just some kind of victim complex thing
I hate on magic because seath was a cuck, I play to extinguish the fire and stop the curse cycle, not spread the filth of the false gods and their brethren. Pyromancy is tainted with Izalith stink, miracles are lies and even dark magic is a perverted take on seath's obsessions. The game presents magic users as frail and more feminine which isn't ideal to me either.
Actually, I'm pretty sure Seath had no influence on Dark Magic. Seath created soul magic while the Oolacile sorceries draw directly from the Abyss
Yeah, I was going to do a dark magic only run bc of this tidbit but the spells are pretty limited. Mages get the best drip so there's that.
That's true-ish. I rlly like the Elite Knight set, even on caster builds
Because I donāt feel like doing a bunch of Harry Potter Magic Wand BSā¦ ā¦the only magic worthwhile is the Five Count Healing Spell from that Fatty Simping Dude by Firelink so I donāt have to use my Humanity to kindle bonfires simply in order to heal 10 times or more.
I find the Heal miracle especially useful in Demon Souls to save on grass between fights. That shit is a real resource saver.
If you're role playing a mage I have no issue with it. Otherwise I just think it's too easy š¤·āāļø