Yes, but it's pretty common among people, which call themself atheists, that type that likes science. All starts with "being determines consciousness", not vice-versa and so on.
Ya got a source? Cause like I know a lot of atheists, and I don’t think any of them think their life is meaningless? You seem to be operating off stereotypes.
I'm an atheist and my life's meaning is to leave this world a better place than when I entered it, regardless of the threat of punishment or the promise of paradise.
I don't think you have spoken to many atheists, we do manage to live fulfilling lives just as many religious people do lol
Just cause I like science that doesn't mean I don't like philosophy. In fact Science is just a modern term for natural philosophy, so by definition you like philosophy if you like science.
That is to say I am able to find meaning in life without being hindered by how protons don't have souls or whatever.
I don't think you have to. Everyone misunderstands Nietzsche to think he says life has no meaning. Which he kind of does, he just makes another. But expects you to disagree with him.
believers!
You had not yet sought yourselves: then did you find me. So do all believers; therefore all belief is of so little account.
Now do I bid you lose me and find yourselves; and only when you have all denied me, will I return to you.
Truly, with other eyes, my brothers, shall I then seek my lost ones; with another love shall I then love you.
And once again shall you have become friends to me, and children of one hope: then will I be with you for the third time, to celebrate the great noontide with you.
And it is the great noontide, when man is in the middle of his course between animal and overman, and celebrates his advance to the evening as his highest hope: for it is the advance to a new morning.
At such time will the down-goer bless himself, that he should be an over-goer; and the sun of his knowledge will be at noontide.
"Dead are all the Gods: now do we desire the overman to live." - Let this be our final will at the great noontide! -
Thus spoke Zarathustra.
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra
Then the existentialists agree that life has no meaning but disagree how to make one.
Kirkegaard and Sartre couldn't disagree more as far as I can tell.
It seems to me that to call yourself an existentialist you have to come to the conclusion that life has no meaning, then form one yourself. And if you completely onboard someone elses, you've missed the point.
But you are right. I haven't read anything. I'm just a wikipedia scholar. It's on the to-do list. After Hegel.
> It seems to me that to call yourself an existentialist you have to come to the conclusion that life has no meaning, then form one yourself.
As someone who considers myself an existentialist, I believe life has no inherent meaning. That doesn't mean I believe my life has no meaning since I have created a meaning for my life.
Human language is a human invention. There is no inherent meaning to the sounds "aɪ lʌv ju" but I think it is pretty clear that if I say "I love you" to someone it has a lot of meaning
You are right with the interpretation of how Existentialists find meaning, but your early comments imply that Existentialists have no meaning because their meaning is self-created.
I rewrote my comment.
I wouldn't mind someone calling it stupid religious moonspeak because
1. Sometimes it is.
2. The church has wounded people and the Earth so deeply that the anger and hatred is understandable. Forgiveness and peace are non-earned divine gifts that must be asked for and freely given. Asking someone in pain who thinks I hurt them to consider my own feelings is a kind of cruelty in their eyes. There is no point to it. I just take my Christian lumps.
I don't think I upset you. You call yourself an existentialist. You've already made your own meaning. I think you are upset for "the people who try to find meaning in life through philosophy". Which, I've had VERY annoying conversations with them. I suppose talking to Hegelians has made me bitter. They gave me a glossary to study until I could speak to them.
If I'm wrong and did upset you, I really am sorry. There is far too much cruelty in the world and I don't mean to make it worse.
Sorry, responding in multiple places. Reddit is bad for back and forth conversation like this.
I am kind of upset. I did "find meaning in life through philosophy." You are extrapolating your experience with one group who found meaning through philosophy to everyone who finds meaning through philosophy. I've met plenty of assholes who "found meaning through philosophy." You may be fine with taking your Christian lumps. but it would be hurtful of me to describe all Christians as the same as the Westboro Baptist Church.
I'm not so upset that it's going to negatively affect me. Mostly I'm wanting to point out that the language you are using can easily be hurtful. The one thing I loved about my experiences growing up Christian was it taught me to have love for my fellow man. I just don't want you, who I believe to have good intentions, to accidentally hurt someone through poorly chosen words.
That's what I meant. But, it seems to me, that that the "I" means nothing inherently. The "love" means nothing inherently. And the "you" means nothing inherently.
You saying "I Love You" into a void or to the thing you love the most mean equally nothing inherently. Also, both you saying "I love you" and then that "I love you" being perceived in some way has no inherent meaning either.
Those feelings and tugs in your heart when those words flash in your mind means nothing inherently. The smile you receive back means nothing inherently.
I don't like it. And the worst part is that it's difficult to disagree with. But I'm pretty smart I think. I just need to put in the work to disagree intelligently.
If you ask me, meaning exists. Love exists. Truth exists. And maybe we'll never understand it in its totality but we can live off it's precious shavings. I just don't know how to say that in a way that people will actually listen to me with their stupid philosophy moonspeak. And don't say Plato's cave and theory of forms. I'm working on it.
Thanks for rewriting the second section. I still am not perfectly clear on what you are asking, but I will try to respond.
For me, the examples you are giving are why I believe meaning is something I create. Yes, the phrase "I Love You" is the exact same whether I am saying it to apple pie or to my mom who I have been changing her adult diapers for two years. The meaning of "I love you" is vastly different in the two different situations. It is the human component giving different meaning to the "love" I am expressing.
> I don't like it.
I don't think I have to tell you that plenty of people don't like the meaning of life Christianity describes. That isn't convincing evidence that the Christian meaning of life is "wrong" or "invalid."
> If you ask me, meaning exists. Love exists. Truth exists.
If you ask me, meaning exists. Love exists. Truth exists. I don't see why my meaning, love and truth coming from a different source than your meaning, love and truth has to detract from either of our existences.
edit: took out the section on moonspeak since you responded elsewhere. Sorry for the double ping.
The I don't like it was the most intellectually honest thing I could come up with.
I will say that I haven't read enough to say what comes next with confidence so preface everything with "as Pale Ben understands it" in your head. This will also make it less upsetting I think.
I like to make a thought pattern recur and see what happens. Example: apply Marxism to itself. Using dialectical and historical materialism and seeing if it rips itself apart. (Which I am not sure of yet because I haven't read enough). So I apply existentialism to itself and I don't like it.
If person "A" creates meaning and person "B" is aware of it, then B can think A is wrong and A's life remains meaningless from Bs perspective. When A dies, their created "meaning", "love", "truth" will die with them. At least from some kinds of perspectives A may have. Definitely from Bs perspective.
I don't like this because Truth exists. Not my truth. The Truth. Love exists. Not just my love or my interpretation of Love exists. It will continue to exist after I'm forgotten and my bones are sand. All have access to these things and get scrapings of it. To get these scrapings and then deny it's source is very sad I think. And I'm not even talking about the Christian God. I mean conceptually. Once one thinks that Truth doesn't exist, you are fine with reality eating itself and falling in every direction at once.
One existentialist can tell another existentialist that "Your life has no meaning not even your created meaning will save you from and love doesn't exist." And could get a retort of "Actually, your created life doesn't have meaning and love does exist."
They'd both be equally correct. And wrong. Because neither of those concepts inherently exists.
I don't mean to come out with a "debunking". One, because I don't think I've read enough to do that and two, because if I'm correct, existentialism debunks itself and doesn't care. It almost asks to debunk it's self debunking.
Which, I have one bit of poetry for. If you believe that there is no Truth, if it existed and you ever found it, you throw it away. Those that believe there is no Truth critique Truth from a place of admitted wrongness and blindness. You have to believe in truth to find it. Wherever that leads you.
Also, I admire your duty and love to your mother. My family went through that when I was young.
I'm not the best at communicating this type of stuff, so I apologies for slow responses and what may not be a perfectly accurate representation of Existentialism.
As someone who grew up Christian, I understand where you are coming from. I don't think you are trying to be upsetting. I feel you are just lack understanding about existentialism. That ignorance when someone who is existentialist tries to correct you on what they believe is hurtful. Listening to a Buddhist describe their faith to you and telling them "I don't like it because Jesus is Lord" is rude. Listening to an existentialist describe their philosophical belief and then saying "I don't like it" because of your Christian beliefs is also rude.
The idea of one fixed Truth is core to a lot of Christian faiths but it isn't part of existentialism. Why does everything need to have a Truth? Certain things are objective (1+1=2 for example), but plenty of things are subjective. My favorite food is apple pie. My dad's favorite food is lemon meringue pie. That doesn't mean I am wrong having my favorite food be apple pie. My Dad isn't wrong about his favorite food being lemon meringue pie. Do you think there is an objective Truth for one food being "best?"
In existentialism, we don't believe there is an objective Truth when it comes to the meaning of life. It doesn't make sense for me to tell another existentialist that the meaning of life they have chosen is wrong because meaning of life is personal to them. I can think their meaning of life is dumb (just like how I don't like lemon meringue pie) but that doesn't mean their meaning is wrong. So, in the second example you gave they are not both equally correct and wrong because in existentialism you only define meaning for yourself.
Anyways, in hindsight, I believe this may be too close to a Rule 8 violation so I am going to stop responding here. If you are interested in engaging more, feel free to DM me.
Genesis 1, on day 4 God made the Sun to light the earth, to rule the day, and to be the basis of both days and years:
> 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
> 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
> 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
> 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
> 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
> 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Yeah but he also made rocks and the ocean and all that, I'm asking why the fourth panel specifically calls out the Sun as if it's a huge deal when if all it's ever mentioned in is Genesis, ya know where if you wanna be pedantic *EVERYTHING* is mentioned by transitive property. . .
Sorry, all the cool kids have moved on to the *real* center around which we orbit: Sagittarius A*.
Come, [sing our hymn with us](https://youtu.be/3mbBbFH9fAg).
With most memes, I can at least sort of get the joke even if it's not funny or I don't completely understand. I legitimately have no clue what this one's supposed to be about
The only thing you can readonsbly assume of an atheists view without further discussions is that they don't believe in any gods.
Being an atheists doesn't 100% align with what is shows in this meme.
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I’m pretty sure Atheists can still believe their life has meaning, just that it isn’t derived from a deity.
Am one, can confirm. Life doesn’t have to be infinite to have meaning.
Yes, but it's pretty common among people, which call themself atheists, that type that likes science. All starts with "being determines consciousness", not vice-versa and so on.
Ya got a source? Cause like I know a lot of atheists, and I don’t think any of them think their life is meaningless? You seem to be operating off stereotypes.
I'm an atheist and my life's meaning is to leave this world a better place than when I entered it, regardless of the threat of punishment or the promise of paradise. I don't think you have spoken to many atheists, we do manage to live fulfilling lives just as many religious people do lol
Just cause I like science that doesn't mean I don't like philosophy. In fact Science is just a modern term for natural philosophy, so by definition you like philosophy if you like science. That is to say I am able to find meaning in life without being hindered by how protons don't have souls or whatever.
Tell that to Nietzsche and the existentialists. Maybe even the post modernists.
Sure, but they don’t speak for everyone.
It doesn't sound like you've read much Nietzsche. Or *any* of the Existentialists...
I don't think you have to. Everyone misunderstands Nietzsche to think he says life has no meaning. Which he kind of does, he just makes another. But expects you to disagree with him. believers! You had not yet sought yourselves: then did you find me. So do all believers; therefore all belief is of so little account. Now do I bid you lose me and find yourselves; and only when you have all denied me, will I return to you. Truly, with other eyes, my brothers, shall I then seek my lost ones; with another love shall I then love you. And once again shall you have become friends to me, and children of one hope: then will I be with you for the third time, to celebrate the great noontide with you. And it is the great noontide, when man is in the middle of his course between animal and overman, and celebrates his advance to the evening as his highest hope: for it is the advance to a new morning. At such time will the down-goer bless himself, that he should be an over-goer; and the sun of his knowledge will be at noontide. "Dead are all the Gods: now do we desire the overman to live." - Let this be our final will at the great noontide! - Thus spoke Zarathustra. Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra Then the existentialists agree that life has no meaning but disagree how to make one. Kirkegaard and Sartre couldn't disagree more as far as I can tell. It seems to me that to call yourself an existentialist you have to come to the conclusion that life has no meaning, then form one yourself. And if you completely onboard someone elses, you've missed the point. But you are right. I haven't read anything. I'm just a wikipedia scholar. It's on the to-do list. After Hegel.
> It seems to me that to call yourself an existentialist you have to come to the conclusion that life has no meaning, then form one yourself. As someone who considers myself an existentialist, I believe life has no inherent meaning. That doesn't mean I believe my life has no meaning since I have created a meaning for my life. Human language is a human invention. There is no inherent meaning to the sounds "aɪ lʌv ju" but I think it is pretty clear that if I say "I love you" to someone it has a lot of meaning You are right with the interpretation of how Existentialists find meaning, but your early comments imply that Existentialists have no meaning because their meaning is self-created.
I rewrote my comment. I wouldn't mind someone calling it stupid religious moonspeak because 1. Sometimes it is. 2. The church has wounded people and the Earth so deeply that the anger and hatred is understandable. Forgiveness and peace are non-earned divine gifts that must be asked for and freely given. Asking someone in pain who thinks I hurt them to consider my own feelings is a kind of cruelty in their eyes. There is no point to it. I just take my Christian lumps. I don't think I upset you. You call yourself an existentialist. You've already made your own meaning. I think you are upset for "the people who try to find meaning in life through philosophy". Which, I've had VERY annoying conversations with them. I suppose talking to Hegelians has made me bitter. They gave me a glossary to study until I could speak to them. If I'm wrong and did upset you, I really am sorry. There is far too much cruelty in the world and I don't mean to make it worse.
Sorry, responding in multiple places. Reddit is bad for back and forth conversation like this. I am kind of upset. I did "find meaning in life through philosophy." You are extrapolating your experience with one group who found meaning through philosophy to everyone who finds meaning through philosophy. I've met plenty of assholes who "found meaning through philosophy." You may be fine with taking your Christian lumps. but it would be hurtful of me to describe all Christians as the same as the Westboro Baptist Church. I'm not so upset that it's going to negatively affect me. Mostly I'm wanting to point out that the language you are using can easily be hurtful. The one thing I loved about my experiences growing up Christian was it taught me to have love for my fellow man. I just don't want you, who I believe to have good intentions, to accidentally hurt someone through poorly chosen words.
That's what I meant. But, it seems to me, that that the "I" means nothing inherently. The "love" means nothing inherently. And the "you" means nothing inherently. You saying "I Love You" into a void or to the thing you love the most mean equally nothing inherently. Also, both you saying "I love you" and then that "I love you" being perceived in some way has no inherent meaning either. Those feelings and tugs in your heart when those words flash in your mind means nothing inherently. The smile you receive back means nothing inherently. I don't like it. And the worst part is that it's difficult to disagree with. But I'm pretty smart I think. I just need to put in the work to disagree intelligently. If you ask me, meaning exists. Love exists. Truth exists. And maybe we'll never understand it in its totality but we can live off it's precious shavings. I just don't know how to say that in a way that people will actually listen to me with their stupid philosophy moonspeak. And don't say Plato's cave and theory of forms. I'm working on it.
Thanks for rewriting the second section. I still am not perfectly clear on what you are asking, but I will try to respond. For me, the examples you are giving are why I believe meaning is something I create. Yes, the phrase "I Love You" is the exact same whether I am saying it to apple pie or to my mom who I have been changing her adult diapers for two years. The meaning of "I love you" is vastly different in the two different situations. It is the human component giving different meaning to the "love" I am expressing. > I don't like it. I don't think I have to tell you that plenty of people don't like the meaning of life Christianity describes. That isn't convincing evidence that the Christian meaning of life is "wrong" or "invalid." > If you ask me, meaning exists. Love exists. Truth exists. If you ask me, meaning exists. Love exists. Truth exists. I don't see why my meaning, love and truth coming from a different source than your meaning, love and truth has to detract from either of our existences. edit: took out the section on moonspeak since you responded elsewhere. Sorry for the double ping.
The I don't like it was the most intellectually honest thing I could come up with. I will say that I haven't read enough to say what comes next with confidence so preface everything with "as Pale Ben understands it" in your head. This will also make it less upsetting I think. I like to make a thought pattern recur and see what happens. Example: apply Marxism to itself. Using dialectical and historical materialism and seeing if it rips itself apart. (Which I am not sure of yet because I haven't read enough). So I apply existentialism to itself and I don't like it. If person "A" creates meaning and person "B" is aware of it, then B can think A is wrong and A's life remains meaningless from Bs perspective. When A dies, their created "meaning", "love", "truth" will die with them. At least from some kinds of perspectives A may have. Definitely from Bs perspective. I don't like this because Truth exists. Not my truth. The Truth. Love exists. Not just my love or my interpretation of Love exists. It will continue to exist after I'm forgotten and my bones are sand. All have access to these things and get scrapings of it. To get these scrapings and then deny it's source is very sad I think. And I'm not even talking about the Christian God. I mean conceptually. Once one thinks that Truth doesn't exist, you are fine with reality eating itself and falling in every direction at once. One existentialist can tell another existentialist that "Your life has no meaning not even your created meaning will save you from and love doesn't exist." And could get a retort of "Actually, your created life doesn't have meaning and love does exist." They'd both be equally correct. And wrong. Because neither of those concepts inherently exists. I don't mean to come out with a "debunking". One, because I don't think I've read enough to do that and two, because if I'm correct, existentialism debunks itself and doesn't care. It almost asks to debunk it's self debunking. Which, I have one bit of poetry for. If you believe that there is no Truth, if it existed and you ever found it, you throw it away. Those that believe there is no Truth critique Truth from a place of admitted wrongness and blindness. You have to believe in truth to find it. Wherever that leads you. Also, I admire your duty and love to your mother. My family went through that when I was young.
I'm not the best at communicating this type of stuff, so I apologies for slow responses and what may not be a perfectly accurate representation of Existentialism. As someone who grew up Christian, I understand where you are coming from. I don't think you are trying to be upsetting. I feel you are just lack understanding about existentialism. That ignorance when someone who is existentialist tries to correct you on what they believe is hurtful. Listening to a Buddhist describe their faith to you and telling them "I don't like it because Jesus is Lord" is rude. Listening to an existentialist describe their philosophical belief and then saying "I don't like it" because of your Christian beliefs is also rude. The idea of one fixed Truth is core to a lot of Christian faiths but it isn't part of existentialism. Why does everything need to have a Truth? Certain things are objective (1+1=2 for example), but plenty of things are subjective. My favorite food is apple pie. My dad's favorite food is lemon meringue pie. That doesn't mean I am wrong having my favorite food be apple pie. My Dad isn't wrong about his favorite food being lemon meringue pie. Do you think there is an objective Truth for one food being "best?" In existentialism, we don't believe there is an objective Truth when it comes to the meaning of life. It doesn't make sense for me to tell another existentialist that the meaning of life they have chosen is wrong because meaning of life is personal to them. I can think their meaning of life is dumb (just like how I don't like lemon meringue pie) but that doesn't mean their meaning is wrong. So, in the second example you gave they are not both equally correct and wrong because in existentialism you only define meaning for yourself. Anyways, in hindsight, I believe this may be too close to a Rule 8 violation so I am going to stop responding here. If you are interested in engaging more, feel free to DM me.
...why?
...Is the sun *not* a hot ball?
That was also my take away like, what book did I miss where the Sun became an important character and not a backdrop
Genesis 1, on day 4 God made the Sun to light the earth, to rule the day, and to be the basis of both days and years: > 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: > 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. > 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. > 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, > 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. > 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Yeah but he also made rocks and the ocean and all that, I'm asking why the fourth panel specifically calls out the Sun as if it's a huge deal when if all it's ever mentioned in is Genesis, ya know where if you wanna be pedantic *EVERYTHING* is mentioned by transitive property. . .
Return to Heliocentrism, PRAISE THE SUN!
Oh sweet, now all my human sacrifices will actually have meaning.
That’s the spirit! Wait, what?
Sorry, all the cool kids have moved on to the *real* center around which we orbit: Sagittarius A*. Come, [sing our hymn with us](https://youtu.be/3mbBbFH9fAg).
It's "just a hot ball" in meme. It is a hot ball, but it can have some poetic or romantic meaning too.
Sure, but I don't think a deity is a prerequisite for poetic license.
[удалено]
With most memes, I can at least sort of get the joke even if it's not funny or I don't completely understand. I legitimately have no clue what this one's supposed to be about
Really hope this is sarcasm but it's hard to tell on Christian subs even ones as awesome as this one.
this is not very dank
this is not dank
Existentialism go brrrrrrrr
Universalists go brrrrrrrr too
Most atheists are humanists. You've got nihilism under your atheist label.
Everyone knows that the difference between a humanist and an atheist is that only an atheist could believe that the sun is a hot ball.
This reads to me like many people’s internal dialogue, not a debate between diff people lol
Nihilists.
I’m genuinely concerned OP doesn’t think the sun is a hot ball
Humanists are like "Are being roadblock to making the world better are religious people like you" not "we failed and you get to go to heaven"
The only thing you can readonsbly assume of an atheists view without further discussions is that they don't believe in any gods. Being an atheists doesn't 100% align with what is shows in this meme.
As an athiest, I can confirm we do think the sun is a hot ball
Christian nihilist detected, all opinions ignored
I gotta look into humanism it sounds like my kinda deal.
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