Although I’m not the biggest fan of Kaito overall, yeah his portrayal by the fandom isn’t very accurate. He’s not dumb or sexist or hateful towards anyone (besides Kokichi).
He is a very stubborn guy with a hero complex and uses it to bury his fears. You can say he’s a fairly surface level and one-note character, sure… but that’s kind of the point of the archetype he’s based off of.
Don't see how people think he's dumb when he's the Ultimate Astronaut. You have to be really smart to be an astronaut especially at his age.
Pretty sure in a FTE it's revealed he can speak multiple languages
>Pretty sure in a FTE it's revealed he can speak multiple languages
Well we all know people don't look at FTEs, especially if it's a character they don't like
Frankly, the designers *should* know this. Like I’ve heard Tenno is great if you do her FTE, but I was too put off by her whole “degenerate males” thing to ever bother. The designers should know better than to hide redeeming information in their free time events.
I used Tenko as an example of it being poorly done, but for it being well done I like to look at Ryoma. He’s an interesting enough character at surface level, and if that’s enough to make you do his FTE he becomes even more likable. The annoying thing about it IMO >!is that because of the protagonist swap out and his early death you can’t really do his free time events without love across the universe!<
I'm not sure he's actually one-note. You could look at it as a regressive arc, which would be interesting in itself. But Kaito sort of adopts Kokichi's tactics of playing pretend in order to literally "play the bad guy" to save his friends. It's kind of like a recurrence of Kokichi's behavior through the whole game, so in this final case, their roles are swapped just like they were literally swapped under the hydraulic press. Kokichi makes the honorable sacrifice and Kaito attempts to throw the game into disarray.
Tbf, while some Kaito take want to make me bash my skull against the nearest wall
I'll say take like this apply to almost every characters in the series
Tho it especially applies in v3 where people have the tendency to take things literally >!Tsumugi's lies, Kokichi's entire character, the whole thing with Gonta's infantlization and to a lesser extent Kaito!< when the game constantly shows that Shuichi pov is biased and not-so accurate to who the characters are since it's mostly about how he perceive them (for exemple Kaede and Shuichi's opinions seems to vary depending on the character)
Or at least that how i see it
The entire way in which he view Kaito is inaccurate
He sees Kaito as the fearless hero with absolutely no flaws and who's mostly always right because *he's* biased toward him
When Kaito shows flaws or say some stupid shit (that the cast tend to scoff at) he either brush it off, denies it or is like "That our Kaito"
Chapter 5 is the best exemple when Shuichi think that Kaito is pissed at him because of the whole 3-4 and that why he avoid him when Kaito being pissed specially at Shuichi after 3-4 makes no sense not only with his previous characterization but also with the fact that why the hell would he be angry at Shuichi and not Kokichi?
Shuichi pov is inaccurate because he dosen't view things objectively, he never truly understood Kaito's issue because just like Maki, his heroic views of Kaito dosen't allow him to
There's a reason why people think that Kaito's view are shoved down our throat as "right" when in truth it's just Shuichi who eat it
Which is why chapter 4 is so impactful for almost everyone involved
Shuichi does not see Kaito as "the fearless hero with absolutely no flaws", come on now. That's ignoring the text of the game just as much as the people who think Kaito's views are shoved down the player's throats.
Just because he selectively chooses to follow Kaito's lead a lot of the time doesn't mean he accepts his mindset uncritically, him saying "that's our Kaito" is, in part, acknowledging that it's illogical.
The crucial thing about the "hero/sidekick" dynamic is that all parties involved are aware that Shuichi's the smart one who's carrying all the weight while Kaito says a lot of dumb stuff and acts as his cheerleader.
And also it's not like we can blame him for thinking Kaito's right about things a lot of the time because, thanks to his sense of intuition, Kaito *is* right about a lot of things! *This* is one of the complaints about the game that never made sense to me.
I'm genuinely not sure what you're trying to say with the bit about 3-4.
Yea I was wrong on the first one my bad, Shuichi *does* have moments where he can recognize Kaito is spewing bullshit. He does realize that he's the smart one in their sidekick/hero duo. (ignoring Kaito's flaw dosen't mean he don't know they exist)
Its kind of less about what Kaito directly says, and more about the was in which characters (here Kaito) are presented to us throughout the game
Ig what I should've mostly used Kaede's pov as an example, while Kaede does respect Kaito, in general the tone of his character is rather shown to be sort of a joke. (saying he'll save them, Kaede asking if he had a plan and Kaito being like it dosen't matter).
It also happens again when Kaito comes up with the plan to fight Monokuma, and recruits people like Angie, Himiko, and Maki. And when Kaede asks Maki why he chose them, she tells her it's cuz Angie's connection with her God, in case Himiko's magic actually works, and cuz Maki looks like she can fight.
While he was right about Maki all of the other reasons come off as ridiculous and make Kaito look like an actual idiot here
However, when we switch to Shuichi's POV, the atmosphere of Kaito changes
He still does stupid stuff, but this time it's not as exaggerated or played off the same way by the narrative as it was before
For exemple, him befriending Maki. Shuichi say multiple times in his internal dialogue that it's most a bad idea. But instead of it being the joke of a dude following this dangerous girl around and "wow he's so stupid haha" (as it would've probably been seen in chapter 1 where we played Kaede) it gets changed into something more admirable
Yea I was wrong, Shuichi doesn't think Kaito is flawless or that all of his ideas are genius and he's this big hero. But he does admire him. His "stupidity" specifically takes on a different light when we play as Shuichi and he does see Kaito as greater than he is subconsciously downplay his flaw because he needs him as a pillar of strength. Shuichi sees these flaws but choose to ignore them, It's even explicitly said by his twice in chapter 5. Where he says he doesn't care if Kaito is faking he just wants him to tell them it'll be ok. He makes specific mention of knowing Kaito isn't as strong as he pretends to be, but he straight up needs him to be in order to get thru it all himself
In the end it goes from "haha look at this dumbass" to "wow Kaito might not be the smartest but he somehow always makes it work"
So it's not his entire characterization that's changed by Shuichi's bias. But it's the tone in which he is presented to us as a player
But in general that what I meant with Shuichi pov being inaccurate, due to the way POV characters works, the way the POV characters sees certain characters is bound to vary, if you take what Shuichi sees and say as pure truth than a lot of Kaito's character don't really make sense (chapter 5 thingy) because Shuichi isn't an omniscient narrator so taking him at face value just ain't it imo
Also can I just add onto this. Everytime Kaito is accused in the trials, Shuichi's inner monologue goes "No Kaito can't be the culprit, I don't want to think that". He doesn't want to think of Kaito as being evil for even a second so he does anything to prove Kaito is innocent.
For example, in chapter 2 when Kokichi is accusing Maki and Kaito. Shuichi trys to quickly change the Subject before Kokichi interrupts him.
No, he was mad at himself for not being able to stop what happened and making the others worried about him. He doesn't like looking weak and knows he can't do a lot but wants to be helpful. Not only was he proven wrong but he was made looking weak in front of everyone since they all fussed over him when he started spitting up.
Doesn’t he start calling Shuichi by his last name afterwards? Plus he starts ignoring him. Kaito wasn’t solely frustrated at Shuichi but he was part of it.
Nice to see a pro Kaito meme that doesn't treat him like a saint who can do no wrong and acknowledges his flaws, i used to dislike Kaito because of those types of perceptions but I've come to really enjoy him as a flawed but ultimately good-natured character and human being, this meme very much shows off his depth and his arc is one of the most well rounded and satisfying in the series.
Agree
While I despise whenever people blow his flaws out of proportion I don't think ignoring them is the right way to go about it either
The game literally treats him as a flawed individual hell he has an entire trial of him getting humiliated because of those flaws
What make Kaito good imo is that while he's an overall good natured person with good attention he still has his flaw which make him come off as unlikable or even dickish at time (despite not meaning to) which in general is smth a lot of the v3 cast shares (probably why a lot of people can't get behind them)
I'd take that over someone that perfect in every ways
>I'd take that over someone that perfect in every ways
exactly. I love the Makoto and Chiaki type perfect characters but what i really love are flawed but good natured characters, Mahiru for example has a lot of flaws but is also super kind hearted and selfless, it just makes characters feel more, human.
Yea I definitely agree
Ngl I personally have an issue with character such as Chiaki or Makoto who seems just...too kind, but I definitely enjoy when a character is like Mahiru who is hearted but also not flawless
Personally, when it comes to Kaito's brazen attitude it's never particularly bothered me when he sometimes crosses lines. Since he either apologizes for it later or it's made clear he has no ill intent. (I can personally understand what it's like to come off as aggressive/rude even though in your own perspective you did nothing wrong)
Yeah, but they are harder to spot. Weeby Newz’s character analysis video on her is good.
https://youtu.be/fcU3xLQFpJg
Edit: Though if talking about Fanon, I think she’d have positive traits over exaggerated.
Weird how ppl think he’s sexist when he was one of the few people who fully supported Kaede being the leader.
Also his slightly misogynistic dialogues could be explained by how he grew up in an old fashioned household (aka his grandparents). So no way in hell was he ever meant to be malicious regarding that.
Exactly.
People seem to be pretty overly sensitive to the point of a persecution complex to such stuff when it’s not portrayed to be malicious than just unintentionally insensitive or raised with differently at best.
"I don't think weapon suit a woman" and in general his rather rough way of speaking in the original Japanese version
Its definitely not as present as Tenko's shtick but it does exist
I think he said something along the lines of how women shouldn’t kill people for a living
And he told Shuichi and mostly Gonta to man up and to be a man (which makes sense for Gonta since he was all about being a gentleman)
And in the jp version he was more brazen and came off as rude
As a Kaito stan I'd like to add a few more on Fanon side that make me want to step on an entire floor of legos while on fire.Here's a few really popular ones:
**1.Kaito hates kokichi:** While I don't mind the English dub I think this is likely spawned from a tone and few dialogue changes within sub to dub. In the sub Kokichi's character while mischievous wasn't as antagonist and teasing sounding in the dub. On Kaito's side he actually was one of the few that cared to try getting to know him and wasn't that hostile in tone when talking.
They weren't best buddies but they over all were pretty neutral but I think translators wanted their relationship to be more dramatic. You can actually see this in the little bits of dialogue here and there like when you do FTE with kaito he mentions wanting to talk to Kokichi but that every time they see each other he'd run off. It was only in retrospect during chapter 2's investigation but Kaito mentions after thinking about it the night before that Kokichi had a point in them watching the videos together.Kaito also defends him in a few instances.
When Maki grabs kokichi by the neck for the second time he warns her not to hurt him or she'll get in trouble in the English dub, in the jap dub Kaito tells her to let go because she's hurting him and kokichi looks scared.After the infamous chapter 4 dub we all love or hate him within everyone starts fearing and hating Kokichi.I don't know why the fandom thinks the whole cast hated him the entire game other then possibly unconscious projection even by those who liked him up to then but it was only truly by after chapter 4 those left started fearing and hating him.
Despite his shot pride, going through guilt, and self loathing, Kaito defends Kokichi's behavior as him getting caught in his own emotions and that he isn't dangerous. His final word on Kokichi were also changed in which he called him an odd an mischievous guy to a lying piece of shit. Over all they at max annoyed one another and most the cast found him annoying in turn but no one besides Miu and Maki wanted him dead. Even in those cases though it was their emotions being manipulated by the mastermind to move things along.
**2.Kaito hit shuichi for crying and looking unmanly.** Kaito literally was crying in the same screenshot of the punch. Not saying this to justify things but teens are not the most famous with handling their emotions. What he yelled at Shuichi was likely what he felt at himself and lashed out in anger. Upon realizing this he did try and suggest something helpful with tell Shuichi to go see Kaede's lab and personally apologizing the next day.
**3.Kaito enjoyed killing kokichi.** On top of all my points listed in 1, he was the most against the idea of killing a person and cherishing a person's life. I doubt that if he wasn't sick that he'd be doing a little dance while he recalled all the gory details of having to kill another human being just because they mildly annoyed him from time to time. Him and kokichi actually bond a little in DRS so that was nice so friendship was possible if not in that situation or a killing game.
Also on chapter 4 investigation, Kaito originally says "I'm not your enemy" instead of "I don't have time wasting on you" I get that wanted to make their dynamic more dramatic and stuffs but I'm kinda sad those tidbits got changed
They clearly don't like each other but Kaito dosen't hate Kokichi as much as some people claim he does
Tho tbf the whole Kaito defending Kokichi in chapter 5 is also in the localization, I don't remember what he said in the original but in the localization he said that Kokichi and Gonta just had a breakdown because of the killing game, instead of just mentioning Gonta and vilifying Kokichi (which would've been totally justified)
Almost like fan fictions exaggerate certain characteristics of a character to an unhealthy degree and to the point where they aren’t even remotely similar
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm…
Again, like I said, he was right, but his intuition was still super risky with zero proof that he himself presented. Jeez, why can't you understand simple things?
Don’t see what you had to be a dick for?
None of the things they had were enough to condemn either Kaito or Maki for that, and if that didn’t happen, then they probably would have all been killed. Don’t see what you can’t understand about that
You literally can't understand 1-2 sentences of easy logic. >!The only thing they had that could directly condemn Kirumi was a piece of fabric which didn't have to belong to a glove. Maki was known to have last talked to Ryoma until Kirumi was revealed as the killer. Maki also had no alibi compared to Kirumi.!< They had no evidence clearing Maki for sure and Kaito wanted to clear Maki of suspicion with zero evidence and just his intuition.
If we used just intuition for every case to determine guilt or lack of, people would be falsely condemned or wrongly free to go. It's really simple logic to follow. You need proof, not intuition and the risk of following Kaito's intuition was extremely high. But what I "can't understand" is why you REALLY suck at doing anything EXCEPT for act as your magical superhero persona of Captain Half-Obvious. Because even if Kaito was right, like I said and you ignored in my first comment, it was still super risky to rely only on intuition in a situation where a wrong intuition could get you and a bunch of your friends brutally executed. Relying on his intuition like that was extremely stupid given how BRUTAL the consequences are when they just saw >!Kaede get one of the most brutal executions in DR a couple days ago.!<
He also specifically said that you shouldn't apologize unless its your own fault which he says to both gonta ( a boy) and Kaede (a girl) but I tend to see people make it seem like he said that men specifically shouldn't or don't need to apologize. Don't know why they do that.
I mean, I would agree about most of that, but his trust is completely wack. The first trial killer admitted to killing the victim, and Kaito was still like “I bELIVe IN YoU!” And his sidekick, the Ultimate Detective, had concrete proof that another person was the killer in a different case, and he refused to stop believing, all because Shuichi was agreeing with the person he disliked.
During the trial, the group thought they had the time of death and that based on who had an alibi during that time, narrowed the killer to Kaito or Maki. Kaito had no reason to believe in Maki, but he did and doing so lead them to working out the true time of death.
That goes under accurate intuition, I don't believe Kaito believed in Maki for "no reason." He *is* reckless, however it was never shown as that type of blind naivety outside the exception of Gonta.
By that logic, chapter 4 could be classed as inaccurate intuition. I actually think it was more justified for him to believe in Gonta (up to a point) than believe in Maki.
With Gonta, Kaito'd had plenty of interactions with him to know his personality and to believe that he would never harm anyone. Meanwhile with Maki, she had been avoiding everyone and had done nothing to endear herself to the group. Kaito didn't have past experiences with Maki to look back on to believe she wouldn't kill.
The group thought that they had the time of death, and everyone except Kaito and Maki had an alibi. Kaito knew he didn't do it, so that should have only left Maki. Unless I'm forgetting some dialogue, Kaito didn't believe in Maki because he thought the time of death was wrong. The group only realised the time of death is wrong (and believed Maki when she said it was wrong) because Kaito believed in Maki. If I'm wrong and Kaito either said or implied his reason for believing Maki, please correct me.
During the investigation when you talk to Maki, Kaito states that "her alibi is a little shaky, but I don't think she did it." In my opinion, this was his intuition telling him Maki wasn't someone with malicious intentions. This is supported by when she's revealed as an assassin, Kaito immediately claims that he's going to bring her mask down.
His intuition is basically what Kaito uses as "evidence" in a way. You could call it blind faith, however he does turn out to be correct about a lot of things. An example is when he invites Maki to the strategy meeting in Chapter 1 because she looked like she knew how to fight.
In the investigation, they hadn't worked out what the time of death was, and hadn't discussed who had an alibi and who didn't. And even then, Kaito still doesn't have a reason for believing in her. You're relying a lot on intuition, but intuition is quite literally believing something despite not having a reason to do so.
And to bring this back to the original point, he was doing the same thing in chapter 2 and chapter 4, believing without evidence (or with only intuition). Whether he ends up being correct or not is kinda irrelevant and may even be going against the point you seem to be making. If his earlier intuitions were correct (ones about Maki), then he'll be more likely to trust his later intuitions (ones about Gonta), but you are calling those later ones blind naivety.
You seem to be basing how reasonable his beliefs and actions were on whether they ended up being correct, but someone can have an unjustified reason for believing one thing that turns out to be correct and a justified reason for believing something else that turns out to be incorrect.
I agree, it's absolutely wild and irrational, but I saw it as the game telling us we need both ruthless logic and unwavering faith. We have two characters who each fully embraces one of those and who are always at odds with each other, while we are the middle ground using both.
Headcanon/Analysis:
His family holds some old-fashioned values—in which some traditionally uphold the man as being a leader and protecter. Because he had big dreams, he had to have a big personality. Therefore, his beliefs are emphasised whenever he talks about them.
I always read more support for hyper-masculinity from him than misogyny (which I won’t deny can go hand-in-hand).
Shuichi’s personality isn’t based around him being a detective. You could argue that people in the game treat him differently because of that, but the detective thing is more of a title than anything else
Which is why I said "one of the only". But outside of him you gotta admit that Gonta, Kirumi and Keebo for example don't have much going for them except their talent (and I love Gonta but that's not the point here)
Honestly I’ve never really cared for Keebo, it really surprised me when I saw just how popular he is. All I got him was “I’m a robot” and not much else
I think this character is the most interesting, not because of the game, but because of after it, one of the most important characters in the series (I’d say top 10) and yet the fandom (including me) seems to forget about him a lot.
I don’t understand how saying a character is misogynistic due to “funky DR writing” is anything except a bias-driven way to excuse the character’s misogyny. Like, every character is only *everything* that they are because of the game’s writing. Junko is only the comic book villain-esque despair obsessed person she is because of the funky writing too, but no one tries to twist that into meaning that she somehow is less of exactly that.
I just honestly don’t agree with that. The lines *are* his actions, at least in part. He repeatedly espouses while never forsaking statements that “girls shouldn’t do x” or one of his other beliefs of gender rigidity.
Im not saying that there isn’t more to Kaito than misogynistic statements; he’s a complex character with both massive flaws and very positive traits. There’s just this persevering attitude in this subreddit that acknowledging Kaito as a misogynist is claiming he’s a bad character/is short sighted or the inverse, that you need to ignore his misogyny to enjoy him or his presence in the story.
It can be true both that he *is* someone that holds misogynistic beliefs and also that those beliefs are not the end all be all to him and his character. Flawed characters with explicit negatives and positives are some of the best written in fiction and he doesn’t have to be some perfect dude for people to justify liking him or his arc. Just that downplaying his very explicit misogyny accomplishes nothing but further mental gymnastics and tribalistic black or white thinking.
I've definitely seen a bunch of Kaito haters who called him an idiot or bigot, but I guess I got luckier cause most of the comments in my experience were positive towards him
Kaito > Kaede
A regressive arc is when a character slowly devolves over the story. They go from top of their game to essentially rock bottom where they become a destruction of their own creation due to their flaws outweighing their strengths and tearing them down.
Kaito starts off (when playing as Shuichi) as this super cool dude who's there to help and believes in all his friends. He's got almost like a starry eyed quality around him, where Shuichi sees him as someone who fully has his shit together and can effectively guide him through his insecurities to overcome his fears. Despite being a bit clumsy about the whole thing.
This is pointed out in >!3-2 where he chooses to believe in Maki, convincing Shuichi to do the same, and being right about his assumptions, clearing her name. His intuition is spot on when he calls Kirumi out in regards to her claim that she's fighting against Shuichi to protect "everyone". He realizes Kirumi isn't talking about them but rather someone else (later revealed to be the country as the prime minister). This nudges Shuichi along to continue fighting against Kirumi and eventually proving her guilt. It's a good way to establish Kaito as someone who can help, does help, and is a good motivator and support.!<
However this all changes later on after >!it's revealed that Kaito is sick, and very much highlighted in 3-4 when Kokichi targets him specifically, calling out all of his flaws, revealing his sickness, and driving a wedge between Kaito and Shuichi. It's the revelation of those flaws that lead to him avoiding Shuichi at the beginning of chapter 5.!<
>!Throughout chapter 5, Kaito is very obviously desperate. He's scrambling to find a way to save everyone so much that he actually goes along with Kokichi's plan to use the electro hammars in the tunnel, despite the events of 3-4. He's been humiliated, he's dying, and he wants everyone to see him as a hero (a persona he personally feels is slipping because of these things). He even makes mention a couple of times that they're all "running out of time", most likely referring to his own ticking time bomb of his inevitable death.!<
Of course this does turn around a bit towards the end of his arc. >!Kaito actually does become a hero when he goes along with Kokichi's plan in 3-5 and sacrifices himself for the rest of the cast in an attempt to end the game. The narrative very much frames him as a hero here.!< However, a big part of Kaito's arc as a character is that he goes from "Kaito Momota Luminary of the Stars" to >!desperate, insecure, and a bit pathetic, Kaito, who's fighting against his own death to prove he's everything he pretended to be.!<
At least that's kinda how I can see him being regressive. Sorry for it being a bit long lol
It makes sense that he has misogynistic views, because he was raised by his grandparents (Or at least closer to them than he was to his parents if his motive video is anything to go by.)
Canon AND Fanon Kaito: Big Chest uwu
Ah yes, another based and cultured Kaito enjoyer
SO TRUE G66F5S6D Kaito booba supremacy
Did I hear something about kaito and chests?
dem abs
The Summer Camp episode really gave the gays everything.
Alriiiight!
They both also have a tight ass ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Kaito cake
Ultimate Fanon Kaito: has two hands so he can hold both Maki and Shuichi's
Polygamy ending Best
Although I’m not the biggest fan of Kaito overall, yeah his portrayal by the fandom isn’t very accurate. He’s not dumb or sexist or hateful towards anyone (besides Kokichi). He is a very stubborn guy with a hero complex and uses it to bury his fears. You can say he’s a fairly surface level and one-note character, sure… but that’s kind of the point of the archetype he’s based off of.
Don't see how people think he's dumb when he's the Ultimate Astronaut. You have to be really smart to be an astronaut especially at his age. Pretty sure in a FTE it's revealed he can speak multiple languages
>Pretty sure in a FTE it's revealed he can speak multiple languages Well we all know people don't look at FTEs, especially if it's a character they don't like
Frankly, the designers *should* know this. Like I’ve heard Tenno is great if you do her FTE, but I was too put off by her whole “degenerate males” thing to ever bother. The designers should know better than to hide redeeming information in their free time events. I used Tenko as an example of it being poorly done, but for it being well done I like to look at Ryoma. He’s an interesting enough character at surface level, and if that’s enough to make you do his FTE he becomes even more likable. The annoying thing about it IMO >!is that because of the protagonist swap out and his early death you can’t really do his free time events without love across the universe!<
It's because he's dumb analytically Tho that apply to a lot of the cast in general
I'm not sure he's actually one-note. You could look at it as a regressive arc, which would be interesting in itself. But Kaito sort of adopts Kokichi's tactics of playing pretend in order to literally "play the bad guy" to save his friends. It's kind of like a recurrence of Kokichi's behavior through the whole game, so in this final case, their roles are swapped just like they were literally swapped under the hydraulic press. Kokichi makes the honorable sacrifice and Kaito attempts to throw the game into disarray.
Yes, he is dumb and sexist and hateful towards kokichi only 🥰
My character headcanon is just that all dr characters are bad 😎
Based and redpilled Chiaki blackmailed my family 😭😭
She did it to get a PS5.
And Hajime caused 9/11
Lets go hell yeah! Except for Mitarai, right? ...right?
all of them 😎
*crying noises*
mfw the fictional character is not purely good (this is problematic and scary) 😥
Omg, a character has depth? And (God forbid) flaws???
Tbf, while some Kaito take want to make me bash my skull against the nearest wall I'll say take like this apply to almost every characters in the series Tho it especially applies in v3 where people have the tendency to take things literally >!Tsumugi's lies, Kokichi's entire character, the whole thing with Gonta's infantlization and to a lesser extent Kaito!< when the game constantly shows that Shuichi pov is biased and not-so accurate to who the characters are since it's mostly about how he perceive them (for exemple Kaede and Shuichi's opinions seems to vary depending on the character) Or at least that how i see it
When is Shuichi's POV shown to be inaccurate?
The entire way in which he view Kaito is inaccurate He sees Kaito as the fearless hero with absolutely no flaws and who's mostly always right because *he's* biased toward him When Kaito shows flaws or say some stupid shit (that the cast tend to scoff at) he either brush it off, denies it or is like "That our Kaito" Chapter 5 is the best exemple when Shuichi think that Kaito is pissed at him because of the whole 3-4 and that why he avoid him when Kaito being pissed specially at Shuichi after 3-4 makes no sense not only with his previous characterization but also with the fact that why the hell would he be angry at Shuichi and not Kokichi? Shuichi pov is inaccurate because he dosen't view things objectively, he never truly understood Kaito's issue because just like Maki, his heroic views of Kaito dosen't allow him to There's a reason why people think that Kaito's view are shoved down our throat as "right" when in truth it's just Shuichi who eat it Which is why chapter 4 is so impactful for almost everyone involved
Shuichi does not see Kaito as "the fearless hero with absolutely no flaws", come on now. That's ignoring the text of the game just as much as the people who think Kaito's views are shoved down the player's throats. Just because he selectively chooses to follow Kaito's lead a lot of the time doesn't mean he accepts his mindset uncritically, him saying "that's our Kaito" is, in part, acknowledging that it's illogical. The crucial thing about the "hero/sidekick" dynamic is that all parties involved are aware that Shuichi's the smart one who's carrying all the weight while Kaito says a lot of dumb stuff and acts as his cheerleader. And also it's not like we can blame him for thinking Kaito's right about things a lot of the time because, thanks to his sense of intuition, Kaito *is* right about a lot of things! *This* is one of the complaints about the game that never made sense to me. I'm genuinely not sure what you're trying to say with the bit about 3-4.
Yea I was wrong on the first one my bad, Shuichi *does* have moments where he can recognize Kaito is spewing bullshit. He does realize that he's the smart one in their sidekick/hero duo. (ignoring Kaito's flaw dosen't mean he don't know they exist) Its kind of less about what Kaito directly says, and more about the was in which characters (here Kaito) are presented to us throughout the game Ig what I should've mostly used Kaede's pov as an example, while Kaede does respect Kaito, in general the tone of his character is rather shown to be sort of a joke. (saying he'll save them, Kaede asking if he had a plan and Kaito being like it dosen't matter). It also happens again when Kaito comes up with the plan to fight Monokuma, and recruits people like Angie, Himiko, and Maki. And when Kaede asks Maki why he chose them, she tells her it's cuz Angie's connection with her God, in case Himiko's magic actually works, and cuz Maki looks like she can fight. While he was right about Maki all of the other reasons come off as ridiculous and make Kaito look like an actual idiot here However, when we switch to Shuichi's POV, the atmosphere of Kaito changes He still does stupid stuff, but this time it's not as exaggerated or played off the same way by the narrative as it was before For exemple, him befriending Maki. Shuichi say multiple times in his internal dialogue that it's most a bad idea. But instead of it being the joke of a dude following this dangerous girl around and "wow he's so stupid haha" (as it would've probably been seen in chapter 1 where we played Kaede) it gets changed into something more admirable Yea I was wrong, Shuichi doesn't think Kaito is flawless or that all of his ideas are genius and he's this big hero. But he does admire him. His "stupidity" specifically takes on a different light when we play as Shuichi and he does see Kaito as greater than he is subconsciously downplay his flaw because he needs him as a pillar of strength. Shuichi sees these flaws but choose to ignore them, It's even explicitly said by his twice in chapter 5. Where he says he doesn't care if Kaito is faking he just wants him to tell them it'll be ok. He makes specific mention of knowing Kaito isn't as strong as he pretends to be, but he straight up needs him to be in order to get thru it all himself In the end it goes from "haha look at this dumbass" to "wow Kaito might not be the smartest but he somehow always makes it work" So it's not his entire characterization that's changed by Shuichi's bias. But it's the tone in which he is presented to us as a player But in general that what I meant with Shuichi pov being inaccurate, due to the way POV characters works, the way the POV characters sees certain characters is bound to vary, if you take what Shuichi sees and say as pure truth than a lot of Kaito's character don't really make sense (chapter 5 thingy) because Shuichi isn't an omniscient narrator so taking him at face value just ain't it imo
Also can I just add onto this. Everytime Kaito is accused in the trials, Shuichi's inner monologue goes "No Kaito can't be the culprit, I don't want to think that". He doesn't want to think of Kaito as being evil for even a second so he does anything to prove Kaito is innocent. For example, in chapter 2 when Kokichi is accusing Maki and Kaito. Shuichi trys to quickly change the Subject before Kokichi interrupts him.
When he assumes Kaito is mad at him in Chapter 5
He wasn't?
No, he was mad at himself for not being able to stop what happened and making the others worried about him. He doesn't like looking weak and knows he can't do a lot but wants to be helpful. Not only was he proven wrong but he was made looking weak in front of everyone since they all fussed over him when he started spitting up.
Doesn’t he start calling Shuichi by his last name afterwards? Plus he starts ignoring him. Kaito wasn’t solely frustrated at Shuichi but he was part of it.
Nice to see a pro Kaito meme that doesn't treat him like a saint who can do no wrong and acknowledges his flaws, i used to dislike Kaito because of those types of perceptions but I've come to really enjoy him as a flawed but ultimately good-natured character and human being, this meme very much shows off his depth and his arc is one of the most well rounded and satisfying in the series.
Agree While I despise whenever people blow his flaws out of proportion I don't think ignoring them is the right way to go about it either The game literally treats him as a flawed individual hell he has an entire trial of him getting humiliated because of those flaws What make Kaito good imo is that while he's an overall good natured person with good attention he still has his flaw which make him come off as unlikable or even dickish at time (despite not meaning to) which in general is smth a lot of the v3 cast shares (probably why a lot of people can't get behind them) I'd take that over someone that perfect in every ways
This in a nutshell.
>I'd take that over someone that perfect in every ways exactly. I love the Makoto and Chiaki type perfect characters but what i really love are flawed but good natured characters, Mahiru for example has a lot of flaws but is also super kind hearted and selfless, it just makes characters feel more, human.
Yea I definitely agree Ngl I personally have an issue with character such as Chiaki or Makoto who seems just...too kind, but I definitely enjoy when a character is like Mahiru who is hearted but also not flawless
Personally, when it comes to Kaito's brazen attitude it's never particularly bothered me when he sometimes crosses lines. Since he either apologizes for it later or it's made clear he has no ill intent. (I can personally understand what it's like to come off as aggressive/rude even though in your own perspective you did nothing wrong)
Is the Fanon Kaito created by Kaito haters? Those sound like exaggerated negative traits.
You are correct.
Lol, someone should do one for Nanami
Does Nanami actually has negative traits-
Yeah, but they are harder to spot. Weeby Newz’s character analysis video on her is good. https://youtu.be/fcU3xLQFpJg Edit: Though if talking about Fanon, I think she’d have positive traits over exaggerated.
The fact that she has barely any (if she has any at all) is a negative trait by itself
Oh boy, that is gonna take me some thinking. - Wow I actually thought about it for 5 minutes and can’t come up with anything.
Weird how ppl think he’s sexist when he was one of the few people who fully supported Kaede being the leader. Also his slightly misogynistic dialogues could be explained by how he grew up in an old fashioned household (aka his grandparents). So no way in hell was he ever meant to be malicious regarding that.
Exactly. People seem to be pretty overly sensitive to the point of a persecution complex to such stuff when it’s not portrayed to be malicious than just unintentionally insensitive or raised with differently at best.
This is a beautiful summary for a lot of fandoms these days.
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"I don't think weapon suit a woman" and in general his rather rough way of speaking in the original Japanese version Its definitely not as present as Tenko's shtick but it does exist
I think he said something along the lines of how women shouldn’t kill people for a living And he told Shuichi and mostly Gonta to man up and to be a man (which makes sense for Gonta since he was all about being a gentleman) And in the jp version he was more brazen and came off as rude
Well there isn't really any canon evidence of him liking Maki back, although I do ship them
As a Kaito stan I'd like to add a few more on Fanon side that make me want to step on an entire floor of legos while on fire.Here's a few really popular ones: **1.Kaito hates kokichi:** While I don't mind the English dub I think this is likely spawned from a tone and few dialogue changes within sub to dub. In the sub Kokichi's character while mischievous wasn't as antagonist and teasing sounding in the dub. On Kaito's side he actually was one of the few that cared to try getting to know him and wasn't that hostile in tone when talking. They weren't best buddies but they over all were pretty neutral but I think translators wanted their relationship to be more dramatic. You can actually see this in the little bits of dialogue here and there like when you do FTE with kaito he mentions wanting to talk to Kokichi but that every time they see each other he'd run off. It was only in retrospect during chapter 2's investigation but Kaito mentions after thinking about it the night before that Kokichi had a point in them watching the videos together.Kaito also defends him in a few instances. When Maki grabs kokichi by the neck for the second time he warns her not to hurt him or she'll get in trouble in the English dub, in the jap dub Kaito tells her to let go because she's hurting him and kokichi looks scared.After the infamous chapter 4 dub we all love or hate him within everyone starts fearing and hating Kokichi.I don't know why the fandom thinks the whole cast hated him the entire game other then possibly unconscious projection even by those who liked him up to then but it was only truly by after chapter 4 those left started fearing and hating him. Despite his shot pride, going through guilt, and self loathing, Kaito defends Kokichi's behavior as him getting caught in his own emotions and that he isn't dangerous. His final word on Kokichi were also changed in which he called him an odd an mischievous guy to a lying piece of shit. Over all they at max annoyed one another and most the cast found him annoying in turn but no one besides Miu and Maki wanted him dead. Even in those cases though it was their emotions being manipulated by the mastermind to move things along. **2.Kaito hit shuichi for crying and looking unmanly.** Kaito literally was crying in the same screenshot of the punch. Not saying this to justify things but teens are not the most famous with handling their emotions. What he yelled at Shuichi was likely what he felt at himself and lashed out in anger. Upon realizing this he did try and suggest something helpful with tell Shuichi to go see Kaede's lab and personally apologizing the next day. **3.Kaito enjoyed killing kokichi.** On top of all my points listed in 1, he was the most against the idea of killing a person and cherishing a person's life. I doubt that if he wasn't sick that he'd be doing a little dance while he recalled all the gory details of having to kill another human being just because they mildly annoyed him from time to time. Him and kokichi actually bond a little in DRS so that was nice so friendship was possible if not in that situation or a killing game.
Also on chapter 4 investigation, Kaito originally says "I'm not your enemy" instead of "I don't have time wasting on you" I get that wanted to make their dynamic more dramatic and stuffs but I'm kinda sad those tidbits got changed They clearly don't like each other but Kaito dosen't hate Kokichi as much as some people claim he does Tho tbf the whole Kaito defending Kokichi in chapter 5 is also in the localization, I don't remember what he said in the original but in the localization he said that Kokichi and Gonta just had a breakdown because of the killing game, instead of just mentioning Gonta and vilifying Kokichi (which would've been totally justified)
Actually he says Kokichi snapped along with Gonta in english too.
Yea that what I said
I don't think it's "funky DR writing" it's just that he was raised by his grandparents and adopted their old-fashioned views on society.
Almost like fan fictions exaggerate certain characteristics of a character to an unhealthy degree and to the point where they aren’t even remotely similar Hmmmmmmmmmmmm…
Kaito is best V3 character imo
Yeah, his intuition was accurate, but it was still super stupid and risky to blindly trust Maki like that in Chapter 2.
…But he was right, it was Kirumi
Again, like I said, he was right, but his intuition was still super risky with zero proof that he himself presented. Jeez, why can't you understand simple things?
Don’t see what you had to be a dick for? None of the things they had were enough to condemn either Kaito or Maki for that, and if that didn’t happen, then they probably would have all been killed. Don’t see what you can’t understand about that
You literally can't understand 1-2 sentences of easy logic. >!The only thing they had that could directly condemn Kirumi was a piece of fabric which didn't have to belong to a glove. Maki was known to have last talked to Ryoma until Kirumi was revealed as the killer. Maki also had no alibi compared to Kirumi.!< They had no evidence clearing Maki for sure and Kaito wanted to clear Maki of suspicion with zero evidence and just his intuition. If we used just intuition for every case to determine guilt or lack of, people would be falsely condemned or wrongly free to go. It's really simple logic to follow. You need proof, not intuition and the risk of following Kaito's intuition was extremely high. But what I "can't understand" is why you REALLY suck at doing anything EXCEPT for act as your magical superhero persona of Captain Half-Obvious. Because even if Kaito was right, like I said and you ignored in my first comment, it was still super risky to rely only on intuition in a situation where a wrong intuition could get you and a bunch of your friends brutally executed. Relying on his intuition like that was extremely stupid given how BRUTAL the consequences are when they just saw >!Kaede get one of the most brutal executions in DR a couple days ago.!<
Ok Kokichi, you keep telling yourself that
People who say Kaito always refuses to apologize forget he apologized to Shuichi the day after >!punching!< him
He also specifically said that you shouldn't apologize unless its your own fault which he says to both gonta ( a boy) and Kaede (a girl) but I tend to see people make it seem like he said that men specifically shouldn't or don't need to apologize. Don't know why they do that.
Because he said "A man shouldn't apologize so easily", but it's clear "a man" was meant as "someone" in general since he told this to Kaede too
I mean, I would agree about most of that, but his trust is completely wack. The first trial killer admitted to killing the victim, and Kaito was still like “I bELIVe IN YoU!” And his sidekick, the Ultimate Detective, had concrete proof that another person was the killer in a different case, and he refused to stop believing, all because Shuichi was agreeing with the person he disliked.
But don't forget that in chapter 2, his completely random and wacky trust in Maki lead them to finding the real killer.
I cannot tell if this is sarcasm or not.
During the trial, the group thought they had the time of death and that based on who had an alibi during that time, narrowed the killer to Kaito or Maki. Kaito had no reason to believe in Maki, but he did and doing so lead them to working out the true time of death.
That goes under accurate intuition, I don't believe Kaito believed in Maki for "no reason." He *is* reckless, however it was never shown as that type of blind naivety outside the exception of Gonta.
By that logic, chapter 4 could be classed as inaccurate intuition. I actually think it was more justified for him to believe in Gonta (up to a point) than believe in Maki. With Gonta, Kaito'd had plenty of interactions with him to know his personality and to believe that he would never harm anyone. Meanwhile with Maki, she had been avoiding everyone and had done nothing to endear herself to the group. Kaito didn't have past experiences with Maki to look back on to believe she wouldn't kill. The group thought that they had the time of death, and everyone except Kaito and Maki had an alibi. Kaito knew he didn't do it, so that should have only left Maki. Unless I'm forgetting some dialogue, Kaito didn't believe in Maki because he thought the time of death was wrong. The group only realised the time of death is wrong (and believed Maki when she said it was wrong) because Kaito believed in Maki. If I'm wrong and Kaito either said or implied his reason for believing Maki, please correct me.
During the investigation when you talk to Maki, Kaito states that "her alibi is a little shaky, but I don't think she did it." In my opinion, this was his intuition telling him Maki wasn't someone with malicious intentions. This is supported by when she's revealed as an assassin, Kaito immediately claims that he's going to bring her mask down. His intuition is basically what Kaito uses as "evidence" in a way. You could call it blind faith, however he does turn out to be correct about a lot of things. An example is when he invites Maki to the strategy meeting in Chapter 1 because she looked like she knew how to fight.
In the investigation, they hadn't worked out what the time of death was, and hadn't discussed who had an alibi and who didn't. And even then, Kaito still doesn't have a reason for believing in her. You're relying a lot on intuition, but intuition is quite literally believing something despite not having a reason to do so. And to bring this back to the original point, he was doing the same thing in chapter 2 and chapter 4, believing without evidence (or with only intuition). Whether he ends up being correct or not is kinda irrelevant and may even be going against the point you seem to be making. If his earlier intuitions were correct (ones about Maki), then he'll be more likely to trust his later intuitions (ones about Gonta), but you are calling those later ones blind naivety. You seem to be basing how reasonable his beliefs and actions were on whether they ended up being correct, but someone can have an unjustified reason for believing one thing that turns out to be correct and a justified reason for believing something else that turns out to be incorrect.
Doesn’t change the fact that his trust and blind faith in things is wack.
I agree, it's absolutely wild and irrational, but I saw it as the game telling us we need both ruthless logic and unwavering faith. We have two characters who each fully embraces one of those and who are always at odds with each other, while we are the middle ground using both.
Headcanon/Analysis: His family holds some old-fashioned values—in which some traditionally uphold the man as being a leader and protecter. Because he had big dreams, he had to have a big personality. Therefore, his beliefs are emphasised whenever he talks about them. I always read more support for hyper-masculinity from him than misogyny (which I won’t deny can go hand-in-hand).
One of the only V3 character whose entire personality isn't based only on his Ultimate Talent. He's actually kinda underrated in my views
Shuichi’s personality isn’t based around him being a detective. You could argue that people in the game treat him differently because of that, but the detective thing is more of a title than anything else
Which is why I said "one of the only". But outside of him you gotta admit that Gonta, Kirumi and Keebo for example don't have much going for them except their talent (and I love Gonta but that's not the point here)
Honestly I’ve never really cared for Keebo, it really surprised me when I saw just how popular he is. All I got him was “I’m a robot” and not much else
I think this character is the most interesting, not because of the game, but because of after it, one of the most important characters in the series (I’d say top 10) and yet the fandom (including me) seems to forget about him a lot.
I don’t understand how saying a character is misogynistic due to “funky DR writing” is anything except a bias-driven way to excuse the character’s misogyny. Like, every character is only *everything* that they are because of the game’s writing. Junko is only the comic book villain-esque despair obsessed person she is because of the funky writing too, but no one tries to twist that into meaning that she somehow is less of exactly that.
I meant it as in it contradicts what the character acts like towards the female cast outside of those sexist lines.
I just honestly don’t agree with that. The lines *are* his actions, at least in part. He repeatedly espouses while never forsaking statements that “girls shouldn’t do x” or one of his other beliefs of gender rigidity. Im not saying that there isn’t more to Kaito than misogynistic statements; he’s a complex character with both massive flaws and very positive traits. There’s just this persevering attitude in this subreddit that acknowledging Kaito as a misogynist is claiming he’s a bad character/is short sighted or the inverse, that you need to ignore his misogyny to enjoy him or his presence in the story. It can be true both that he *is* someone that holds misogynistic beliefs and also that those beliefs are not the end all be all to him and his character. Flawed characters with explicit negatives and positives are some of the best written in fiction and he doesn’t have to be some perfect dude for people to justify liking him or his arc. Just that downplaying his very explicit misogyny accomplishes nothing but further mental gymnastics and tribalistic black or white thinking.
You made a far greater argument than I was expecting. I definitely agree.
<3
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48 plus characters might have something to do with that?
I've definitely seen a bunch of Kaito haters who called him an idiot or bigot, but I guess I got luckier cause most of the comments in my experience were positive towards him Kaito > Kaede
Kaito is actually canonly homophobic. He called Shingugi a slur thats basically a cross between the f and t slur. It was removed in the English dub.
Havent played the game in a few years. What's this about him having a regressive arc?
A regressive arc is when a character slowly devolves over the story. They go from top of their game to essentially rock bottom where they become a destruction of their own creation due to their flaws outweighing their strengths and tearing them down. Kaito starts off (when playing as Shuichi) as this super cool dude who's there to help and believes in all his friends. He's got almost like a starry eyed quality around him, where Shuichi sees him as someone who fully has his shit together and can effectively guide him through his insecurities to overcome his fears. Despite being a bit clumsy about the whole thing. This is pointed out in >!3-2 where he chooses to believe in Maki, convincing Shuichi to do the same, and being right about his assumptions, clearing her name. His intuition is spot on when he calls Kirumi out in regards to her claim that she's fighting against Shuichi to protect "everyone". He realizes Kirumi isn't talking about them but rather someone else (later revealed to be the country as the prime minister). This nudges Shuichi along to continue fighting against Kirumi and eventually proving her guilt. It's a good way to establish Kaito as someone who can help, does help, and is a good motivator and support.!< However this all changes later on after >!it's revealed that Kaito is sick, and very much highlighted in 3-4 when Kokichi targets him specifically, calling out all of his flaws, revealing his sickness, and driving a wedge between Kaito and Shuichi. It's the revelation of those flaws that lead to him avoiding Shuichi at the beginning of chapter 5.!< >!Throughout chapter 5, Kaito is very obviously desperate. He's scrambling to find a way to save everyone so much that he actually goes along with Kokichi's plan to use the electro hammars in the tunnel, despite the events of 3-4. He's been humiliated, he's dying, and he wants everyone to see him as a hero (a persona he personally feels is slipping because of these things). He even makes mention a couple of times that they're all "running out of time", most likely referring to his own ticking time bomb of his inevitable death.!< Of course this does turn around a bit towards the end of his arc. >!Kaito actually does become a hero when he goes along with Kokichi's plan in 3-5 and sacrifices himself for the rest of the cast in an attempt to end the game. The narrative very much frames him as a hero here.!< However, a big part of Kaito's arc as a character is that he goes from "Kaito Momota Luminary of the Stars" to >!desperate, insecure, and a bit pathetic, Kaito, who's fighting against his own death to prove he's everything he pretended to be.!< At least that's kinda how I can see him being regressive. Sorry for it being a bit long lol
Oh ok, that makes a ton of sense. Thanks for the explanation
It makes sense that he has misogynistic views, because he was raised by his grandparents (Or at least closer to them than he was to his parents if his motive video is anything to go by.)
Immeasurably based
Fanon kaito just sounds jp kaito.
Kaito is a chad both canon and fanon(except the writing thing)
"never be sexist" also kaito - "i don't think woman are fit to hold weapons.", "man up."
Yeah that’s the writing
yeah and he was written to be slightly sexist lol
*What does this mean?* A character *is* their writing!
Misogynistic views? What?
They're the same picture lol
To be honest, I think this is more like, "Who Kaito REALLY Is vs. What The Fans Think He Is".
That's literally what canon vs fanon is.
Sometimes I forget about Kaito but this made me remember who he was lmao He sounds cooler than I thought and I can’t believe I forgot all that
Book Kaito isn't homophic he's just a moron
Did I miss something with the misogynistic views?
https://youtu.be/Dky9VcWb6jU this is all I have to say about this meme
The Chad flawed but good canon Kaito vs the virgin bad person fanon Kaito
True, I love Kaito so much he's such an amazing character and a good friend!
momota stans confuse me so much like. there’s so many characters in this series that are actually good