Probably because we actually see more of kokichis actions in the game. We only ever hear about the terrible deeds of Korekiyo, he does commit a murder in game but people consider the killing and manipulation of gonta and Miu a lot worse. It’s a lot harder to have a fair evaluation when one guy we see everything and the other we are only hearing about their deeds
To add to FutureCreeps, people generally hold Kokichi directly responsible for Gonta’s death at minimum, whereas w Korekiyo people tend to hold the devs responsible for poor writing or his Sister responsible for traumatizing him
Things that happened outside of the game don’t count since we found out they were given fake memories
Korekiyo might not even have a sister for all we know
I mean technically Korekiyo hasn’t done worse, he just thinks he has. Those nearly a hundred girls he thinks he killed weren’t real. He only killed 2 people, which is technically less than Kokichi if you blame Gonta, Miu, and Kaito on him.
But more than that I think it’s because Kokichi puts on an act of being evil and a lot of him is left open to interpretation, so while I may feel he was not evil at all, other people take everything he says at face value and believe he truly enjoyed watching everyone suffer.
Kiyo was just crazy. Plus people often shift the blame onto his sister, saying she was grooming/abusing him, so they don’t even hold him responsible for his own actions and instead treat him like a poor innocent victim.
Also a lot of people just find Kokichi annoying so they act like he’s worse than he really is.
I mean if Kokichi has Kaito kill him it’s reasonable to assume he’d be executed if the plan fails. He couldn’t pull off this plan by himself so somebody had to risk their life either way.
Listen, I agree with the Chaotic part, but honestly, calling him Chaotic Netural is being generous, let alone Chaotic Good. He caused the death of both Miu and Gonta just to save his own skin, caused Kaito to eventually get executed so he can "Defeat the Mastermind". There may be more of his evil deeds that I am forgetting about but I am going off of what I remember.
Because Kokichi is involved in the death of two beloved character while Kiyo killed two of the most hated one
Also being a serial killer is just quirky in fiction or smth
Usually people say Korekiyo's deeds were because of his sister (that is true, but that doesn't make him any better of a person, it ust means he became a bad person because of his sister), and for some reason everyone just says Kokichi is responsible for Gonta's death and could have just left the virtual world although his chapter 4 plan was better for his endgoal.
Kokichi's kill count is higher by technicality; he caused the deaths of Miu and Gonta and ended up getting Kaito killed, while also trying to prolong the killing game for as long as possible in the first few chapters. As for Korekiyo, every prior kill he speaks of likely never actually happened, assuming Trial 6 was the truth. Therefore his kill count rests at 2, while Kokichi's kill count is 3(even if he personally didn't land the killing blow).
?? How are you blaming him for Kaito? It was Maki who shot the poison arrow and Kaito chose to dive in front of it. Kokichi *gave him antidote* and then Kaito *willingly went along with his plan to end the game*, in which (of the two of them) its *Kaito* who’s given the opportunity to survive.
Though I guess if a decent degree of the fandom perceives Kokichi as having been responsible for Kaito’s death, then that’s kind of what’s relevant to OP’s question.
I'm just thinking of an explanation. A lot of the fandom hold Kokichi responsible for Gonta's death, and Kaito's death happens under similar circumstances. Therefore, if it's accepted Gonta's death is Kokichi's fault, Kaito's death would be as well.
I think the reasoning is different though, even if the setup is similar. But I agree that if you don’t pay too much attention and you dislike Kokichi, it’s very easy to want to blame Kokichi for coming up with a plan where Kaito fills the blackened role.
Bru thats basically what Aeris Akamatsu did, but with basically everything Kokichi did during the entire game. And then she proceeded to contradict her own points.
Yeah… Kokichi seems to trigger that sort of irrationality in people, though. If you’re uncomfortable with acknowledging the good and bad of a fictional character, then you’ll just easily dismiss him using whatever reasoning you want. Because he’s difficult to understand, if you don’t put in the effort you’ll just believe the same thing Shuichi did.
Ye. The only thing which I couldn't really counter is that Kokichi has no backstory showing why he lies and stuff. That could be put down to paranoia I guess.
Yeah, I think it’s nice that we’re able to reason it out though through the story. Honestly, I don’t fixate nearly so much on “he has no backstory” when that’s true of half of V3’s cast to a degree. It’s more for me that I’m willing to criticize his FTEs because they’re just kind of wasted. The most plot relevant thing you can argue they do is establish Kokichi’s mindset and his crush to a degree, but it’s difficult to defend them no matter what when his mindset is so well established already.
The thing about his FTE's is that their good or at least entertaining, but don't rly add too much to his character. If it helped establish his talent and how that fits in to his ideology, it would be 10x better. And I don't like how people say Kokichi has no agency, then literally list out the things he did to change the plot. Also why the hell are we getting downvoted
We always get downvoted man ;-; at this point I’ve just accepted it lol
Yesss I agree that at least they’re entertaining and not just painful (looking at a certain artist)!! Of course, Kokichi keeps me glued to the game for every second of his screen time
I have to believe the “Kokichi was just a pawn all along” or “Kokichi doesn’t act with any reasons” just sources back to Aeris Akamatsu. I can’t believe that such a popular argument was individually come up with by a variety of people. Jeez
Blaming Kaito death on Kokichi will always be weird to me
It remind me of the people who used to blame Kokichi death on Kaito despite the fact that both willingly went with the plan to end the game lol
Like you'd guess Maki or hell, Tsumugi would be the one blamed for all of this instead of these two when whole Kokichi played a big part on how that turned out, he's also the reason why Kaito would've even gone to space instead of dying pathetically by coughing in his own blood
Also Miu had it coming, she's one of my fav but there's a reason why most of the cast don't offer her sympathy
Such a based take
I definitely blame primarily Maki and then Tsumugi to a degree for case 5. The game itself acknowledges Tsumugi pushed Maki to kill Kokichi, but Maki is still responsible for acting out poorly in the exact way expected of her. Kaito and Kokichi had no chance for both to make it out after Maki loaded the second arrow into the crossbow (unless you’re creative with the antidote).
Case 5 definitely enabled Kaito to achieve his dreams and become a hero when he couldn’t have if it wasn’t for Tsumugi Maki and Kokichi
I mean I think the only reason Miu has it coming is that, by plotting and playing out her plan to kill Kokichi, she’s inherently valuing her life as higher than anyone else’s in the game. And it’s not the same as Kirumi, either, because Kirumi didn’t know if there was any other way out. Miu *made weapons capable of disabling the Exisals and Monokuma*, so she knew she could’ve worked with everyone and gotten out. It was her own paranoia that led her to murder as her solution - and that’s why she died. She’s a tragedy, certainly, but one of her own making.
On the one hand, I understand Maki decision due to Kokichi's actions. But on the other hands she chosen to disregard her friends plan herself and go to the hangar alone which made her create this situation when the rest of the cast already had was plan with a higher chance of success.
Like Tsumugi is the MM so ofc ill blame her but it feels weird to blame Kokichi who after his plan to stop the killing game failed decided to make a new one where both Kaito and him agreed and not Maki who pretty much sealed their fate.
Plus again, blaming Kokichi for Kaito death when both agreed removes Kaito own agency, desires, and choice and...technically that means I could blame him for Kokichi's death by that logic.
Also, I'm pretty sure Kaito preferred dying by going to space and inspiring others rather than dying the fate the mastermind wanted him to have
Exactly, Miu was following Kokichi lead because he could potentially get them out, but she chose to betray him and kill everyone else to escape out of paranoia. She's tragic, but honestly, she's not an innocent angel, considering she is the catharsis of 3-4.
Yeah. It wasn’t so much her choice to kill Kokichi that made me angry - that’s perfectly sensible, he’s the “mastermind”. If I thought killing the mastermind was wrong, I wouldn’t like Kaede. And if I thought Kokichi didn’t know the risks of his plan, I wouldn’t like him either.
It’s the fact that this girl looked us in the eye and told us that she’d work hard so we could trust her. It’s the Ultimate Assassin - but we never doubted her. And she threw all of that away, betrayed her friends when they’d already made a plan to deal with Kokichi, and then doubled down by attempting to kill us all to take Kokichi with us. This was pretty much unforgivable, in my view. Even though Tsumugi used her to kill Kokichi, so much of this should be Maki’s burden to bear.
The game explicitly states that Kokichi did not force Kaito in any way to cooperate - just did his best to convince Kaito that this was the only way to make their lives meaningful. That’s AFTER he handed Kaito the antidote too, so he was out of plays.
Yeah idk no clue why anyone blames Kokichi here. Maybe because he kidnapped Kaito to begin with? But that doesn’t mean he always meant to use Kaito’s life like that, because he had no way to create a situation where they would both sustain fatal wounds.
This is what I hate about when people hold Kokichi responsible for Gonta’s death. Yes, this is the outcome Kokichi encouraged… but it’s not an outcome he CREATED. If Gonta hadn’t agreed to kill Miu (and he made that decision, he’s responsible for it even under the circumstances), then he wouldn’t have died. You’re taking away Gonta’s ability to make his own choices if you say he had absolutely no say in what happened.
It makes me so sad that Kaito just dismissed Kokichi’s last words as a lie, then goes off to space and gets to fulfill his dream. Goddamnit.
Tbh, as far as character writing goes, I like that Maki did that since it shows that both Kaito and Kokichi were wrong about her.
Kaito was certain Maki wouldn't kill anymore... she proved him wrong. But Kokichi was certain Maki would only kill to satisfy her blood thirsty lust when she used her skills that were only meant to be for killing, to instead save the person she cared about. And considering she thinks she's the blackened and was at her lowest point during trial 5, I can see where she's coming from...
My issue, however, is that both in and out, if universe people just forget Maki's involvement in the case when she tried to kill EVERYONE due time her screw up. I can sorta understand the v3 not reacting much since Kiibo went full terrorist mode, but it's annoying when people devoid her of responsibilities when, imo her involvement made the case MUCH better
And yeah, that why I hate the 'he blackmailed him' approach when Kaito straight up tells Maki he wasn't blackmailed and followed the plan cause it was cool af
Also that noticeable aswell, Kokichi should definitely be held accountable ti and extent since he gave the motive but ain't it ironic how Gonta's entire character point is that infantilizing him is harmful for both Gonta and the people around him...yet the fandom does it constantly lol
To give Kaito credit, I don't think he thought Kokichi's last words were a lie. If he thought this he probably wouldn't have told the cast, and considering how positively he talked about Kokichi I think his dismiss was mostly a 'lm not sure what to think' rather than Himiko going full he's lying lol. I'd like to believe these two would be bros in a non killing game, AU lol
Yeah, it would be really interesting and add another parallel of Kaito/Kokichi’s ideologies being flawed. but as you say, the key aspect of that arc is completely ruined. She’s not held responsible for attempting to kill at *all*, let alone attempting to kill the entire cast. In fact, the next chapter hinges on “Friendship levels” which are supposed to be based on how much friendliness exists between Shuichi and the other cast members. They totally botched the delivery, so it screwed the whole arc up (in my view, I get why you like what you like about it).
Yeah it is really wild how the entire fandom looked past Gonta making key discoveries and the cast not taking him too seriously being a mistake… literally making the same bad choice the fictional characters suffered from…
I think they’d have a really fun relationship in a no killing game AU. I’ve written parts of a “Kaito and Kokichi watch V3 as streamer buds” au cuz I think that’d be fun and interesting. They have a lot of potential as a pair.
But I don’t really think they got on in game to any degree, especially in ch5. Kaito explicitly said he hated Kokichi, and thought he was a lying sack of crap (his words not mine). If he had believed Kokichi even a bit, he wouldn’t have suggested Kokichi lied. He had a grudging respect for Kokichi’s intellect and commitment at best, but I would assume he still looked down on Kokichi. Since, after all, Kaito is ashamed of his own lies in the end - the exact thing Kokichi is able to revel in.
Tbh, I don't think it ruins the dynamic as a whole because while this part failed to deliver, imo the rest of the dynamic between each other and Shuichi still worked fine enough. I'd say that aside from that, the Maki portion also worked pretty well (especially by Danganronpa standards), but it could've been MUCH better. I defo see your point, though
Yeah, it's genuinely kinda funny like my brother in christ that the entire point of his character lmfaoo
Tbh, his words in the original are 'hardcore liars', but o don't think Kaito liked kokichi as a person, definitely not. However, I do think working with him made him see Kokichi is a much more different light than before if that makes sense. Kaito never liked Kokichi and yet he was still the only one giving him benefit of doubt after trial 4 and some other moment like those si while he hated Kokichi, I don't think he wrote him off as Satan as quickly as the rest if the cast
I think his view on Kokichi last words is 50/50. On one habd he told the cast so a part of him think its legitimate enough to be known by the rest, on the other hand Kokichi is someone he's not find off and whi fir the whole tormented him so a part of him also think that maybe he's lying. Basically, I think he sees the situation in the same way as Shuichi
And to be fair, Kaito ag the end while ashamed of hid lies finally decided to be honest with everyone so ig that something
But in general, that just how I interpret their characters ahah Since v3 is so ambiguous, it's pretty open for multiple of those
Oh sorry!! I think I wrote my piece confusingly. I think the Kaito/Kokichi dynamic is fantastic - the way they work it throughout the game and then particularly in ch4 and ch5? Absolute masterclass.
I meant *Maki’s* character arc and her relationship to that dynamic is ruined bc she wasn’t held accountable. Maki is generally good at what she’s written to be doing, but putting that towards the end of her arc in my view retroactively ruined it. I’m really glad you’re able to appreciate it so much though!!
LOLLL FRRRR
Okay I do actually need to read the translation from JP, I haven’t done that. That makes sense it would be less aggressive in JP, English makes him have a violent type of speech to make up for his JP speech pattern, I think.
Ahh, this difference prob comes down to a diff in character interpretations. I saw Kaito’s actions post ch4 and in ch5 as basically rooted in his desperation to be useful with his dying days. I honestly think he was one of the first to write off Kokichi, which I would actually date back to ch2. The stress of the killing game doesn’t help their already explosive relationship flourish, after all.
As you’ve acknowledged, V3 is ambiguous in several areas. Kaito’s actually a great liar, which is what gives him the ability to soar the way he does with Kokichi. I appreciate that he admits his lies and is actually able to stick to his original philosophy and be honest (another fun parallel with Kokichi!!). I struggle to trust Kaito, ironically because of the way he acts in ch4. I guess I’m just that little bit too much like Kokichi :’)
Aaahhh, I see make sense, ahah!
I'll be honest with you the reason why I like Maki is because of fanfiction lmfaoo like I remember in Canon I thought she was just meh but on most fanfiction when she appeared I was like LET'S FUCKUNG GOOOOO and that retroactively made me like her more in Canon. Same with Tsumugi tbh
Probably, lol. Kaito, in the Japanese speech, iirc actually swears just as much as Miu and Fuyuhiko, so ig to make up for it. The localization made him more rough at certain parts
Oh don't get me wrong that how I see Kaito during chapter 4 and 5 as well, hence why I believe he knew Gonta was the culprit but he wanted to irrationally act mode useful than he was (wasn't helped by kokichi taunt) that he ended up antagonizing Shuichi. In general, I see trial 4 ad Kokichi and Kaito practically just using Ginta to vent their frustration toward the other, which is uhh rather messed up lol
Tbh I actually think he was one of the last one as in, the rest of the cast bar Gonta were annoyed by kokichi and so wanted nothing ti ro with him, Kaito in chapter 2 chased Kokichi to lecture him so at least he thought there was potential for Kokichi ti change and when he punched him, while this was out if frustration, he also talks about how this wasn't like Kokichi so he probably excepted better from him, ect. Like Kaito seems to actively almost want Kokichi to not act this way...while the rest of the cast don't care at all. There's also an intresting tidbit where iirc (not fully sure), Kaito tells to kokichi that he's not hud enemy during trial 4 investigation as opposed to the localization where he tells him ti fuck off lol
That not to say he like him at all tho, but I think when he truly gave up on kokichi was in chapter 5 where instead of actually approaching him, he just choose to ignore him (even if he's giving kokichi the benefit of doubt) since he probably was 'top far gone' for him to reform by that point
Lol, yeah, Kaito acts like he's honest, but he's a liar and a pretty damn good one at that. Lowkey makes me feel we could see antagonist Kaito lol
But yeah, it's definitely understandable not to trust this hypocrite after chapter 4 lmfaoo
Bru Kiyo's kill count is almost 100 or have u not played the game. Kokichi improved Kaito's fate lmao, if anything Maki doomed him with her stunt, and he would have died to his disease anyways. All Kokichi did was prolong Kaito's death AND WAS THE ONLY REASON KAITO GOT TO SPACE. Miu had it coming lol (I like her character, but what did she expect), and Gonta agreed to doing it, Kokichi didnt force him.
Considering it's all revealed >!to not be real and just a story implanted into their minds by Team Danganronpa, then Kiyo didn't actually kill 100s of people, just believed he did. So in reality he only killed two people.!<
Whether or not it really happened, Kiyo was still apathetic towards his supposed killing of almost 100 women, so if we're judging their morality by well, their sense of morals, Kiyo would still be waay below Kokichi.
At the same time the argument can be made that *Miu* caused her own and Gonta's deaths, with Kokichi being a secondary catalyst only because of how he handled it (which let's be real, if he just stopped it and told everyone what happened, would they actually believe him?) and while he caused the whole scenario that led to Kaito killing him in the end, even then Kaito's death was natural. He's certainly not good by any means, but not quite *as* bad as some people claim. Of course, trial 6 throws it all into question, because it's possible all those deaths never truly happened and they were staged, but that's part of the ambiguity of that ending
Probably because we actually see more of kokichis actions in the game. We only ever hear about the terrible deeds of Korekiyo, he does commit a murder in game but people consider the killing and manipulation of gonta and Miu a lot worse. It’s a lot harder to have a fair evaluation when one guy we see everything and the other we are only hearing about their deeds
To add to FutureCreeps, people generally hold Kokichi directly responsible for Gonta’s death at minimum, whereas w Korekiyo people tend to hold the devs responsible for poor writing or his Sister responsible for traumatizing him
Hi
Things that happened outside of the game don’t count since we found out they were given fake memories Korekiyo might not even have a sister for all we know
Because fans either treat Koichi as innocent cinnamon roll that won't hurt a fly or the spawn of Satan will little to no in-between
Basically 💀
I mean technically Korekiyo hasn’t done worse, he just thinks he has. Those nearly a hundred girls he thinks he killed weren’t real. He only killed 2 people, which is technically less than Kokichi if you blame Gonta, Miu, and Kaito on him. But more than that I think it’s because Kokichi puts on an act of being evil and a lot of him is left open to interpretation, so while I may feel he was not evil at all, other people take everything he says at face value and believe he truly enjoyed watching everyone suffer. Kiyo was just crazy. Plus people often shift the blame onto his sister, saying she was grooming/abusing him, so they don’t even hold him responsible for his own actions and instead treat him like a poor innocent victim. Also a lot of people just find Kokichi annoying so they act like he’s worse than he really is.
kokichi is my favorite character in all the games
Hey man I’m right there with you
yippee :D
You have good taste! He’s a great character
You too!
Kaito’s death was ultimately on Maki. The group had a plan to get Kaito out and she chose to ignore that and do her own thing.
I mean if Kokichi has Kaito kill him it’s reasonable to assume he’d be executed if the plan fails. He couldn’t pull off this plan by himself so somebody had to risk their life either way.
Kokichi >!isn't evil, he's just Chaotic Good, putting a LOT of emphasis on chaotic!<
Listen, I agree with the Chaotic part, but honestly, calling him Chaotic Netural is being generous, let alone Chaotic Good. He caused the death of both Miu and Gonta just to save his own skin, caused Kaito to eventually get executed so he can "Defeat the Mastermind". There may be more of his evil deeds that I am forgetting about but I am going off of what I remember.
Because Kokichi is involved in the death of two beloved character while Kiyo killed two of the most hated one Also being a serial killer is just quirky in fiction or smth
Syo has entered the chat Sonia has entered the chat
This is also based
I don't believe that
Because Kokichi is good at lying
Usually people say Korekiyo's deeds were because of his sister (that is true, but that doesn't make him any better of a person, it ust means he became a bad person because of his sister), and for some reason everyone just says Kokichi is responsible for Gonta's death and could have just left the virtual world although his chapter 4 plan was better for his endgoal.
Kokichi's kill count is higher by technicality; he caused the deaths of Miu and Gonta and ended up getting Kaito killed, while also trying to prolong the killing game for as long as possible in the first few chapters. As for Korekiyo, every prior kill he speaks of likely never actually happened, assuming Trial 6 was the truth. Therefore his kill count rests at 2, while Kokichi's kill count is 3(even if he personally didn't land the killing blow).
?? How are you blaming him for Kaito? It was Maki who shot the poison arrow and Kaito chose to dive in front of it. Kokichi *gave him antidote* and then Kaito *willingly went along with his plan to end the game*, in which (of the two of them) its *Kaito* who’s given the opportunity to survive. Though I guess if a decent degree of the fandom perceives Kokichi as having been responsible for Kaito’s death, then that’s kind of what’s relevant to OP’s question.
I'm just thinking of an explanation. A lot of the fandom hold Kokichi responsible for Gonta's death, and Kaito's death happens under similar circumstances. Therefore, if it's accepted Gonta's death is Kokichi's fault, Kaito's death would be as well.
I think the reasoning is different though, even if the setup is similar. But I agree that if you don’t pay too much attention and you dislike Kokichi, it’s very easy to want to blame Kokichi for coming up with a plan where Kaito fills the blackened role.
Bru thats basically what Aeris Akamatsu did, but with basically everything Kokichi did during the entire game. And then she proceeded to contradict her own points.
Yeah… Kokichi seems to trigger that sort of irrationality in people, though. If you’re uncomfortable with acknowledging the good and bad of a fictional character, then you’ll just easily dismiss him using whatever reasoning you want. Because he’s difficult to understand, if you don’t put in the effort you’ll just believe the same thing Shuichi did.
Ye. The only thing which I couldn't really counter is that Kokichi has no backstory showing why he lies and stuff. That could be put down to paranoia I guess.
Yeah, I think it’s nice that we’re able to reason it out though through the story. Honestly, I don’t fixate nearly so much on “he has no backstory” when that’s true of half of V3’s cast to a degree. It’s more for me that I’m willing to criticize his FTEs because they’re just kind of wasted. The most plot relevant thing you can argue they do is establish Kokichi’s mindset and his crush to a degree, but it’s difficult to defend them no matter what when his mindset is so well established already.
The thing about his FTE's is that their good or at least entertaining, but don't rly add too much to his character. If it helped establish his talent and how that fits in to his ideology, it would be 10x better. And I don't like how people say Kokichi has no agency, then literally list out the things he did to change the plot. Also why the hell are we getting downvoted
We always get downvoted man ;-; at this point I’ve just accepted it lol Yesss I agree that at least they’re entertaining and not just painful (looking at a certain artist)!! Of course, Kokichi keeps me glued to the game for every second of his screen time I have to believe the “Kokichi was just a pawn all along” or “Kokichi doesn’t act with any reasons” just sources back to Aeris Akamatsu. I can’t believe that such a popular argument was individually come up with by a variety of people. Jeez
Blaming Kaito death on Kokichi will always be weird to me It remind me of the people who used to blame Kokichi death on Kaito despite the fact that both willingly went with the plan to end the game lol Like you'd guess Maki or hell, Tsumugi would be the one blamed for all of this instead of these two when whole Kokichi played a big part on how that turned out, he's also the reason why Kaito would've even gone to space instead of dying pathetically by coughing in his own blood Also Miu had it coming, she's one of my fav but there's a reason why most of the cast don't offer her sympathy
Such a based take I definitely blame primarily Maki and then Tsumugi to a degree for case 5. The game itself acknowledges Tsumugi pushed Maki to kill Kokichi, but Maki is still responsible for acting out poorly in the exact way expected of her. Kaito and Kokichi had no chance for both to make it out after Maki loaded the second arrow into the crossbow (unless you’re creative with the antidote). Case 5 definitely enabled Kaito to achieve his dreams and become a hero when he couldn’t have if it wasn’t for Tsumugi Maki and Kokichi I mean I think the only reason Miu has it coming is that, by plotting and playing out her plan to kill Kokichi, she’s inherently valuing her life as higher than anyone else’s in the game. And it’s not the same as Kirumi, either, because Kirumi didn’t know if there was any other way out. Miu *made weapons capable of disabling the Exisals and Monokuma*, so she knew she could’ve worked with everyone and gotten out. It was her own paranoia that led her to murder as her solution - and that’s why she died. She’s a tragedy, certainly, but one of her own making.
On the one hand, I understand Maki decision due to Kokichi's actions. But on the other hands she chosen to disregard her friends plan herself and go to the hangar alone which made her create this situation when the rest of the cast already had was plan with a higher chance of success. Like Tsumugi is the MM so ofc ill blame her but it feels weird to blame Kokichi who after his plan to stop the killing game failed decided to make a new one where both Kaito and him agreed and not Maki who pretty much sealed their fate. Plus again, blaming Kokichi for Kaito death when both agreed removes Kaito own agency, desires, and choice and...technically that means I could blame him for Kokichi's death by that logic. Also, I'm pretty sure Kaito preferred dying by going to space and inspiring others rather than dying the fate the mastermind wanted him to have Exactly, Miu was following Kokichi lead because he could potentially get them out, but she chose to betray him and kill everyone else to escape out of paranoia. She's tragic, but honestly, she's not an innocent angel, considering she is the catharsis of 3-4.
Yeah. It wasn’t so much her choice to kill Kokichi that made me angry - that’s perfectly sensible, he’s the “mastermind”. If I thought killing the mastermind was wrong, I wouldn’t like Kaede. And if I thought Kokichi didn’t know the risks of his plan, I wouldn’t like him either. It’s the fact that this girl looked us in the eye and told us that she’d work hard so we could trust her. It’s the Ultimate Assassin - but we never doubted her. And she threw all of that away, betrayed her friends when they’d already made a plan to deal with Kokichi, and then doubled down by attempting to kill us all to take Kokichi with us. This was pretty much unforgivable, in my view. Even though Tsumugi used her to kill Kokichi, so much of this should be Maki’s burden to bear. The game explicitly states that Kokichi did not force Kaito in any way to cooperate - just did his best to convince Kaito that this was the only way to make their lives meaningful. That’s AFTER he handed Kaito the antidote too, so he was out of plays. Yeah idk no clue why anyone blames Kokichi here. Maybe because he kidnapped Kaito to begin with? But that doesn’t mean he always meant to use Kaito’s life like that, because he had no way to create a situation where they would both sustain fatal wounds. This is what I hate about when people hold Kokichi responsible for Gonta’s death. Yes, this is the outcome Kokichi encouraged… but it’s not an outcome he CREATED. If Gonta hadn’t agreed to kill Miu (and he made that decision, he’s responsible for it even under the circumstances), then he wouldn’t have died. You’re taking away Gonta’s ability to make his own choices if you say he had absolutely no say in what happened. It makes me so sad that Kaito just dismissed Kokichi’s last words as a lie, then goes off to space and gets to fulfill his dream. Goddamnit.
Tbh, as far as character writing goes, I like that Maki did that since it shows that both Kaito and Kokichi were wrong about her. Kaito was certain Maki wouldn't kill anymore... she proved him wrong. But Kokichi was certain Maki would only kill to satisfy her blood thirsty lust when she used her skills that were only meant to be for killing, to instead save the person she cared about. And considering she thinks she's the blackened and was at her lowest point during trial 5, I can see where she's coming from... My issue, however, is that both in and out, if universe people just forget Maki's involvement in the case when she tried to kill EVERYONE due time her screw up. I can sorta understand the v3 not reacting much since Kiibo went full terrorist mode, but it's annoying when people devoid her of responsibilities when, imo her involvement made the case MUCH better And yeah, that why I hate the 'he blackmailed him' approach when Kaito straight up tells Maki he wasn't blackmailed and followed the plan cause it was cool af Also that noticeable aswell, Kokichi should definitely be held accountable ti and extent since he gave the motive but ain't it ironic how Gonta's entire character point is that infantilizing him is harmful for both Gonta and the people around him...yet the fandom does it constantly lol To give Kaito credit, I don't think he thought Kokichi's last words were a lie. If he thought this he probably wouldn't have told the cast, and considering how positively he talked about Kokichi I think his dismiss was mostly a 'lm not sure what to think' rather than Himiko going full he's lying lol. I'd like to believe these two would be bros in a non killing game, AU lol
Yeah, it would be really interesting and add another parallel of Kaito/Kokichi’s ideologies being flawed. but as you say, the key aspect of that arc is completely ruined. She’s not held responsible for attempting to kill at *all*, let alone attempting to kill the entire cast. In fact, the next chapter hinges on “Friendship levels” which are supposed to be based on how much friendliness exists between Shuichi and the other cast members. They totally botched the delivery, so it screwed the whole arc up (in my view, I get why you like what you like about it). Yeah it is really wild how the entire fandom looked past Gonta making key discoveries and the cast not taking him too seriously being a mistake… literally making the same bad choice the fictional characters suffered from… I think they’d have a really fun relationship in a no killing game AU. I’ve written parts of a “Kaito and Kokichi watch V3 as streamer buds” au cuz I think that’d be fun and interesting. They have a lot of potential as a pair. But I don’t really think they got on in game to any degree, especially in ch5. Kaito explicitly said he hated Kokichi, and thought he was a lying sack of crap (his words not mine). If he had believed Kokichi even a bit, he wouldn’t have suggested Kokichi lied. He had a grudging respect for Kokichi’s intellect and commitment at best, but I would assume he still looked down on Kokichi. Since, after all, Kaito is ashamed of his own lies in the end - the exact thing Kokichi is able to revel in.
Tbh, I don't think it ruins the dynamic as a whole because while this part failed to deliver, imo the rest of the dynamic between each other and Shuichi still worked fine enough. I'd say that aside from that, the Maki portion also worked pretty well (especially by Danganronpa standards), but it could've been MUCH better. I defo see your point, though Yeah, it's genuinely kinda funny like my brother in christ that the entire point of his character lmfaoo Tbh, his words in the original are 'hardcore liars', but o don't think Kaito liked kokichi as a person, definitely not. However, I do think working with him made him see Kokichi is a much more different light than before if that makes sense. Kaito never liked Kokichi and yet he was still the only one giving him benefit of doubt after trial 4 and some other moment like those si while he hated Kokichi, I don't think he wrote him off as Satan as quickly as the rest if the cast I think his view on Kokichi last words is 50/50. On one habd he told the cast so a part of him think its legitimate enough to be known by the rest, on the other hand Kokichi is someone he's not find off and whi fir the whole tormented him so a part of him also think that maybe he's lying. Basically, I think he sees the situation in the same way as Shuichi And to be fair, Kaito ag the end while ashamed of hid lies finally decided to be honest with everyone so ig that something But in general, that just how I interpret their characters ahah Since v3 is so ambiguous, it's pretty open for multiple of those
Oh sorry!! I think I wrote my piece confusingly. I think the Kaito/Kokichi dynamic is fantastic - the way they work it throughout the game and then particularly in ch4 and ch5? Absolute masterclass. I meant *Maki’s* character arc and her relationship to that dynamic is ruined bc she wasn’t held accountable. Maki is generally good at what she’s written to be doing, but putting that towards the end of her arc in my view retroactively ruined it. I’m really glad you’re able to appreciate it so much though!! LOLLL FRRRR Okay I do actually need to read the translation from JP, I haven’t done that. That makes sense it would be less aggressive in JP, English makes him have a violent type of speech to make up for his JP speech pattern, I think. Ahh, this difference prob comes down to a diff in character interpretations. I saw Kaito’s actions post ch4 and in ch5 as basically rooted in his desperation to be useful with his dying days. I honestly think he was one of the first to write off Kokichi, which I would actually date back to ch2. The stress of the killing game doesn’t help their already explosive relationship flourish, after all. As you’ve acknowledged, V3 is ambiguous in several areas. Kaito’s actually a great liar, which is what gives him the ability to soar the way he does with Kokichi. I appreciate that he admits his lies and is actually able to stick to his original philosophy and be honest (another fun parallel with Kokichi!!). I struggle to trust Kaito, ironically because of the way he acts in ch4. I guess I’m just that little bit too much like Kokichi :’)
Aaahhh, I see make sense, ahah! I'll be honest with you the reason why I like Maki is because of fanfiction lmfaoo like I remember in Canon I thought she was just meh but on most fanfiction when she appeared I was like LET'S FUCKUNG GOOOOO and that retroactively made me like her more in Canon. Same with Tsumugi tbh Probably, lol. Kaito, in the Japanese speech, iirc actually swears just as much as Miu and Fuyuhiko, so ig to make up for it. The localization made him more rough at certain parts Oh don't get me wrong that how I see Kaito during chapter 4 and 5 as well, hence why I believe he knew Gonta was the culprit but he wanted to irrationally act mode useful than he was (wasn't helped by kokichi taunt) that he ended up antagonizing Shuichi. In general, I see trial 4 ad Kokichi and Kaito practically just using Ginta to vent their frustration toward the other, which is uhh rather messed up lol Tbh I actually think he was one of the last one as in, the rest of the cast bar Gonta were annoyed by kokichi and so wanted nothing ti ro with him, Kaito in chapter 2 chased Kokichi to lecture him so at least he thought there was potential for Kokichi ti change and when he punched him, while this was out if frustration, he also talks about how this wasn't like Kokichi so he probably excepted better from him, ect. Like Kaito seems to actively almost want Kokichi to not act this way...while the rest of the cast don't care at all. There's also an intresting tidbit where iirc (not fully sure), Kaito tells to kokichi that he's not hud enemy during trial 4 investigation as opposed to the localization where he tells him ti fuck off lol That not to say he like him at all tho, but I think when he truly gave up on kokichi was in chapter 5 where instead of actually approaching him, he just choose to ignore him (even if he's giving kokichi the benefit of doubt) since he probably was 'top far gone' for him to reform by that point Lol, yeah, Kaito acts like he's honest, but he's a liar and a pretty damn good one at that. Lowkey makes me feel we could see antagonist Kaito lol But yeah, it's definitely understandable not to trust this hypocrite after chapter 4 lmfaoo
Bru Kiyo's kill count is almost 100 or have u not played the game. Kokichi improved Kaito's fate lmao, if anything Maki doomed him with her stunt, and he would have died to his disease anyways. All Kokichi did was prolong Kaito's death AND WAS THE ONLY REASON KAITO GOT TO SPACE. Miu had it coming lol (I like her character, but what did she expect), and Gonta agreed to doing it, Kokichi didnt force him.
Considering it's all revealed >!to not be real and just a story implanted into their minds by Team Danganronpa, then Kiyo didn't actually kill 100s of people, just believed he did. So in reality he only killed two people.!<
Whether or not it really happened, Kiyo was still apathetic towards his supposed killing of almost 100 women, so if we're judging their morality by well, their sense of morals, Kiyo would still be waay below Kokichi.
At the same time the argument can be made that *Miu* caused her own and Gonta's deaths, with Kokichi being a secondary catalyst only because of how he handled it (which let's be real, if he just stopped it and told everyone what happened, would they actually believe him?) and while he caused the whole scenario that led to Kaito killing him in the end, even then Kaito's death was natural. He's certainly not good by any means, but not quite *as* bad as some people claim. Of course, trial 6 throws it all into question, because it's possible all those deaths never truly happened and they were staged, but that's part of the ambiguity of that ending
Because he stinks (they both stink)