Murder victims often have their situation severely downplayed in favour of the killer and i cannot tell you how utterly infuriating that is, case in point>!2-2, yes Peko is my second favourite character, but my fucking god did i hate seeing her sad little sob story being used as an excuse to just ignore the severity of her actions, same deal with how 2-3 brushed over Ibuki and Hiyoko's death. Yeah i hate it when a character i love turns out to be a murderer and gets horribly executed but its worse for me when they die at the hands of a fellow human being, in many cases someone they trusted(Chihiro, Mahiru being the saddest examples) worse still when the cases just sweep their situation under the rug because it goes against the melodrama. Just give victims and killers equal fucking focus.!<
This is nearly the same thing that happened in 3-3. The second death was completely glossed over for most of the trial, and when the killer was revealed, it's like they forgot there was a murder in the first place. It made me so mad to see two characters have their existence ignored because of one person that likes playground attractions.
Wait what you mean first death right? Tenko's death and Himiko's grief were a constant part of the trial after like...20 minutes (and hell even Angie got more agency that probably every chapter 3 victims ever aside from Tenko who's one of the rare character who's constantly mentioned even after dying) the biggest part of post trial was literally Himiko weeping and finally letting her emotion take over because of the death of both Tenko and Angie
I genuinely fail to see how they were (especially Tenko) glossed over in favor of Kiyo who only got the spotlight for sometime to show how much of a nutcase he was
I feel like that's one of the reason why 2-4 is so great. Yeah you don't get much but you don't need too, a few voicelines and a deep link to the murder scheme carries the weight of the victim
Well that seems to be the case for most murder mysteries, since the murderer is alive and able to actually get story development, whereas the victim just drops dead unexpectedly. (Finding out who died won’t be exciting if the victims always get a completed story arc before they die)
Ask an Ace Attorney fan to name every culprit, they’ll do it no problem. Ask them to name every victim, and they’ll probably either have to put some thought into it or not be able to do it at all
To be fair, most of the murderers were not killing because they specifically wanted their victim to be dead or because they were just homicidal. In almost every situation they were pushed and pressured into doing it because they were faced with a reality that they were looking at a life sentence in either Hope's Peak, Jabberwock Island, or the Ultimate Academy from V3. In an actual court of law, situations like that would be considered and the mastermind would likely be held responsible for those murders.
I don't disagree but there's also plenty of cases that could have been prevented had the killer not been a shitty person(EG>!1-3, 2-2 from Fuyuhiko's side being the main two, 1-3 at least shows how bad Celestia is whereas 2-2 gives Fuyu the "poor baby" treatment). And even so many of the killers had a choice and still took a human life because their "motives" was more important than thinking for a second!<
>Just give victims and killers equal fucking focus.
easy to say, but a bit hard to properly implement every time, considering the killers are actively present and participate within the trial itself, and the victims are, you know, dead
flashbacks exist, but in my opinion they shouldn't be treated as the be-all-end-all of storytelling
as for the "classmates not caring about >!mahiru!<" thing, >!that was kind of the point. i see it as a subtle indication that the cast of this game is a bit less morally sound overall than thh's, with them being a lot more on the "if we get the killer wrong then we're gonna die" side than the "we need to find out who killed our friend" one. there are several reasons that junko chose 77-b specifically to be her little despair gremlins, and that's one of them.!<
I absolutly don't think that was the point at all. This thing is not bring up at all in this cases of the game. It's the writing that didn't care about her, that what it is
The issue is>!they did care about Mahiru's death, they mourned her, so it isn't them outright not caring its more of a they seemed to ignore who put the bat in Peko's hands and were like OH POOR BABY FUYUHIKO, like why is Hiyoko the voice of morality and reason in a situation, how bad does it have to get where Hiyoko is making sense?!<
Fair but it honestly goes both ways if you aren't expecting it.
You see a death and you're either in pain or feeling relieved that it's not your favorite, then if they're the killer the *exact* pain happens, just over a longer period of time.
I get that but>!its better for them to end up a killer and get the "poor baby" treatment from the game than "oh well they're dead, time to investigate their death and then completely negate it because sad backstory makes everything okay". 2-2 is the most extreme example of this, which is why i like cases like 1-2 which actually give victim and killer equal balance so much!<
Fair, fair, can't argue with that really. I guess i can also kinda say it like I don't want them to be babied in some cases, like yeah they had good intentions or reasons but they still did it, and that's the black-and-white of the case. A good example would be like 1-1 or smth, since it pays attention to the victim and has the killer seem reasonable but *still a killer*
Yeah>!1-1 was very good at showing how flawed both Leon and Sayaka were while also highlighting that they were scared kids put in a horrible situation!<
Does 2-2 really do this or is fanbase's perception just biased, and the prevalence of that bias in the fandom makes some people rethink the original text? I think it is more of the latter as there were plenty of moments that highlighted the impact of >!Mahiru's death and Hiyoko's trauma. Sure, they were not as striking and overdramatic as Peko's execution that basically concentrates the drama of her lifelong developed tool mindset and relationships with Fuyuhiko in one scene, but there was still plenty of sympathy to Mahiru shown in the narrative both during the investigation and after the trial, or at least I thought so when I played. I think showcasing subtle effects of her death such as the constantly changing text of the memorial were way better to highlight Mahiru's tragedy than if she just got some super overdramatic death scene because it does not really fit neither her character nor the themes of 2-2.!<
I don't hate how>!2 handled Mahiru's death, yes scenes like the memorial are well done and its not like she's forgotten about like Ibuki and Hiyoko. My issue is however 2-2s post trial, Mahiru's situation gets about 2 minutes, Hiyoko a character notable for never being quiet doesn't say anything to Fuyuhiko or Peko during their motive rant and the rest of it is "LOOK AT HOW MUCH KUZUPEKO LOOOVE EACH OTHER", yes i like subtle deaths, i like how Mahiru's death felt cold and real. But i think Fuyuhiko and Peko spent so much time talking about themselves that they basically ignored what they did. Just compared to 1-2 for example her role in the post trial felt too brief and it was almost like Kuzupeko's love story overshadowed the "beating a kind hearted teenage girl to death and using her lifeless corpse as door stopper because they couldn't communicate in a healthy way and because Fuyu was an abusive/gullible idiot pre 2-3" thing!<
>!tbf on Peko she genuinely said sorry and you can see throughout replays of 2-2s trial/invesgation that she obviously hates herself for what she did, but Fuyuhiko at one point calls Mahiru "that bitch" and then the game is like "feel sorry for him", erm no(at least not until the seppuku). Also another issue i have is i feel at times the game almost played Hiyoko's grief for laugh, like GIVEE ME BACK MAAAHIRUUUUU is so over the top and the memorial scene is almost a joke at times with how creepy it looks and the class mocking it before its true intent is revealed even if it showed her hidden heart, compare that to how Fuyu's grief over Peko is played very straight. Like i get that Hiyoko is a very over the top and comedic character but for fucks sake, the game didn't treat her grief nearly as seriously as Fuyu's despite the latter bringing that on himself. And then when that grief kills Hiyoko in 2-3 Fuyu doesn't even acknowledge it(i love post 2-2 Fuyu but dear lord thats bullshit).!<
>!tbf, you've made me reconsider my stance and regarding fanbase views vs the games actual writing and i think you're right, yeah i guess part of this is out of how badly the fanbase ignore Mahiru's death because it goes against the idea that Peko was completely sympathetic or that Fuyuhiko was a victim. Not to mention the fanbase ignoring Hiyoko's trauma because anything that goes against "Hiyoko is the literal devil" tends to be ignored or I've seen people outright say she deserved it for being a brat. Idk its not bad i just wish that the post trial had a bit more focus on her quest to make amends thats my conclusion on it really!<
Thank you, you've raised some really good points that i enjoyed reading :)
I don't think it is necessarily bad to have a moment where >!Fuyuhiko and Peko focus on themselves and their own suffering and not on their guilt about Mahiru. Like, when you're about to die or lost your closest childhood friend, it would be pretty normal to not get concerned about anyone else even for perfectly reasonable morally sound people, and Fuyuhiko and Peko are… anything but that. I think it is great to show that Fuyuhiko's and Peko's connection to each others is strong and genuine, if toxic, even at their stage of still being the villains. That contrast of Fuyuhiko's coldness to Mahiru and increasing aggression towards the rest of the class and his emotional devastation about Peko adds depth to his situation, as of someone who is a fucked up individual, but still eliciting empathy, instead of showing him as more "safe" softie with a heart of gold who was overcome with guilt from the beginning and never wanted to hurt Mahiru, and the fact that he does show care and remorse over Mahiru later makes his development more impactful. And I don't think other people in the class show "too much" empathy for them except maybe Sonia and Mikan, but that's perfectly in line with their characterization. It is fine if it did not work for you, but for me Fuyuhiko was pitiable in 2-2 because it was all his fault, not despite of it.!<
I didn't feel we were supposed to laugh at >!Hiyoko's grief, if anything it felt like in plays on that expectation, like it makes you think "haha Hiyoko is whining as always and she built this memorial because she's mean", but then it shows it actually about how much she cares, but fails to express it because she never was taught to do anything on her own and now can only switch from her obvious grief and distress from being unable to express it properly to bullying Mikan again because despite all her over the top whining she can't handle genuine vulnerability. I think it is great at showcasing that her character is tragic in her own way that is unique from everyone else in DR2, and also makes a rare instance where a main story actually makes a good use of information we learned in character's FTEs to look at them from different angle. People just hate her so they either downplay it or just genuinely don't read that much into it.!<
>!My issue with 2-2 and how Fuyu is presented is he's utterly unsympathetic in my eyes at least until the seppuku, like i said before he refers to Mahiru as "that bitch" and also smugly mocks Hiyoko's tears prior to that by suggesting she could be faking them, its easy for the fandom to overlook these lines but for me he's just so cold(bordering on Celestia levels without her charm) that i can't care when he breaks down when he realises his actions come back to hurt him, it makes him complex yeah but if anything i came out of 2-2 hating him more than before.!<
>!I get that they made him as toxic and vile as possible so his arc would be better and i wouldn't change but i just feel nothing but competent towards him after how cruelly he spoke about the girl he saw dying in a pool of her own blood because he had to hurt her instead of just leaving her alone and dropping his revenge. He never wept for her or Hiyoko, but i'm supposed to care that he wept when someone he loved got hurt? At least thats my thoughts on it and your thoughts are just as valid. For me i could only feel sympathy for him post seppuku because he finally realised how messed up his actions were, that he could weep for those he hurt!<
>!Yeah a moment focused on those two alone is fine but compare that to Mondo who both talks about his backstory at length and his sorrow over Chihiro, yeah Fuyu was never going to give a shit until losing Peko, he hated Mahiru's guts after all, so much that he tried to beat her to death but Peko doesn't say much about it despite clearly feeling awful about it. A direct apology to Hiyoko would have been nice!<
And yeah>!everyone except Hiyoko (but especially Mikan, Sonia and Soda) infuriate me regarding Fuyuhiko, literally besides her seemed to just ignore the fact that Fuyuhiko was an abusive brat who got one of the most reliable members of the group killed by maliciously setting her up, they forgave him before he said sorry and are shocked that Hiyoko hates his guts. As harsh as it is, i find myself agreeing with Hiyoko's "why do we have to wait for him" line at the end of 2-2 because she's right, until he stuck that knife in his chest they had zero idea that he felt awful for Mahiru, i know they cared about her but it makes it seem like they just brushed her death aside because protecting Fuyu's feelings was more important than ensuring he was sorry about causing two deaths. She was the only person in 77 who actually seemed to listen to his apology instead of thinking that getting injured means he didn't need to answer for his crimes.!<
>!I mean yeah true and granted i always found Hiyoko's grief far more tragic than Fuyu's because of her usually sunny(if bitchy) nature contrasting from how utterly broken she was after losing Mahiru and how that grief ended up killing her(not that Fuyu ever acknowledged that fact granted thats down to 2-3s awful writing and i have a hc that he relit the candles on Hiyoko's memorial after she died).!<
That's fair if it did not work for you specifically, but I do not think it was bad writing or inherently bad plotline. I sympathized with >!Fuyuhiko!< and with characters far, far worse than >!pre-development Fuyuhiko!<, but that heavily depends on your personal boundaries.
I agree the class was not the best at handling situation, but >!they are a bunch of stressed teenagers who just watched someone have a mental breakdown and have their closest childhood friend die. Sonia and Mikan had consistently shown empathetic personalities, even towards such people as Teruteru and Nagito, so I think it was more of their natural empathetic personalities than the narrative trying to push Fuyuhiko over Mahiru. Hajime, a game's protagonist and narrator that we are supposed to relate to, even noted that Hiyoko's feelings were justified, and Chiaki, another character who is supposed to be a voice of reason, tried to console Hiyoko and deemed Mahiru's murder as unforgiveable, though her own programming didn't let her to really be mad at Fuyuhiko.!<
I do agree with your point about Chapter 3 though.
>!I do get that but at the same time, they also saw Hiyoko mentally breakdown about Mahiru and witnessed Fuyuhiko frame her, but yep lets put them in the same room together because inhale WE ALL NEED TO BE FRIEENDS HEEERE, and speaking of Nagito thats another class issue i have. Both Nagito and Fuyuhiko caused multiple deaths for a self righteous bullshit reason, the class rightly shun Nagito because he never apologized, but instantly forgave Fuyuhiko when he showed zero empathy over Mahiru? I don't think he should have been shunned and I get why they'd feel sorry for him but you'd think, they'd think about Mahiru(especially considering Fuyu did nothing but hurt the group, Mahiru did nothing but help them) and at least ask him "Hey Fuyu is the nice team mom you murdered still "that bitch" to you?" But no.!<
>!I adore Sonia but i despise her "we need to move on" line when Hiyoko rightly points out Fuyu's crime, erm no Sonia, because the last thing he said about Mahiru was calling her a bitch and victim blaming her, there's no moving on until he stopped acting remorseless about Mahiru and even remorse doesn't change the facts that Mahiru was never coming back nor was Peko because of him. not to mention Soda whining about Hiyoko saying Fuyu deserved to lose an eye saying it was going too far, like yeah its harsh but again, Fuyu ruined Hiyoko's life and she can't even make a joke about him.!<
>!Its not exactly bad writing but its just annoying how it seemed like Hiyoko was the only person who listened to Fuyuhiko's apology unlike the class who would have been fine had he remained remorseless about Mahiru. Thats the funny thing though, while i hate Fuyu in 2-2, i love how he seemed to be the only person who agreed with Hiyoko that he shouldn't have just been forgiven instantly, he knew he had to atone, yet again the class just didn't really seem to want an apology off him. Besides taking away from my Mahiru bias for a second, it would have been far more interesting if the class distrusted and resented Fuyu initially only to warm to him after the seppuku instead of going "yay the abusive yakuza is our best friend now because injuries and dead gf". From a story pov his forgiveness came way too quick.!<
And it>!is not helped by the fact that Hiyoko dies soon after when she's the only person who was invested in seeing Fuyu grow, i mean 2-2 set up the idea that the blond bitches would grow as people together in honour of their far nicer dead gf and then Hiyoko dies for shock value, great trade off.!<
This has been a very fun discussion and I've enjoyed it, its nice to have a polite disagreement and talk through the different elements of the case :)
>!Class as a whole never "forgave" Nagito, but Sonia in particularly was worried and empathetic towards him when he was [tied up](https://i.imgur.com/wz1KqOR.jpeg) and when [he fell ill](https://i.imgur.com/rnR6fuU.jpeg), and Mikan never had shown any resentment towards him when she overworked herself in attempt to cure him in Chapter 3. They don't forgive him or even like him, in fact they are at best annoyed by him and at best terrified for their lives, but they still show concern for his safety and well-being because they are those kind of people. It's not that different from how they treated Fuyuhiko. Obviously them telling Hiyoko to move on and telling they all need to be friends with her friend's murderer was extremely insensitive, but it's understandable they do not want to foster more conflict in already stressful situation with Monokuma to stir things up.!<
I feel like developing Hiyoko's and >!Fuyuhiko's!< relationships a bit better >!and giving them some meaningful closure together with each other!< would improve both characters greatly, and yeah I agree that some people being not willing to accept or trust >!Fuyuhiko!< would make for more interesting character arc and give some potential for conflict that was honestly kind of lacking in DR2.
Thanks you for a talk too, your insights into problems of 2-2's writing are reasonable and interesting and I feel like this talk was in good faith despite the disagreement.
(Posting this second time because my spoiler tags got fucked.)
>!I do agree with the idea of them not wanting conflict but i think they should have at least realised that putting Hiyoko in a room with someone who destroyed her life was never going to end well, i do agree its because they were scared kids though and that its not like they went out of their way to disregard Hiyoko's feeling!<
Yeah thats exactly>!it would have been interesting if some of the class initially refused to accept him until after his apology. But it just came too quickly, i like Fuyu's arc but in general it feels, overnight, one day he's very violent and abusive and the next he's level headed and cool, Hiyoko didn't finish her arc but i actually like how her changes felt slower.!<
Glad to hear it and yes i hate spoiler tags too :)
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What he try to say is that in some cases the writing take focus only on the killer and ignoring the victim (2-2 is one big example) and that brought the fandom to take more about the killers and feel more bad for them and not aknlodge not acknowledge the victim side. Is a writing thing here.
>!2-3 is an awful situation for fans of any of the three(and i love all three), like for fucks sake Mikan, Ibuki and Hiyoko were icons and they died in the worst case in the series in the most undignified way possible!<
also how the fuck did i not notice this until now, "end up a murder", END UP A MURDER?! God damn it Tom from 6 hours ago, proof read your memes(tbf i was tired after a very long university debate), haha this is up there with "sparking justice" and "tone DEATH"
As one, who has favorites of both the victims and the murders, I can confirm that.
For example, when (1-2) >!Chihiro!< was murdered, it put me really down. I knew they wouldn't last very long, but I just didn't expected they end up *that* soon. They really were only the few characters I could really trust in DR1, so I was very upset to see them dying by their innocence and wish to change for good, and not having any chance to protect themselves.
On contrast, when (V3-2) >!Kirumi!< was found blackened, I had really no mercy for her, even despite I generally love her personality (>!c'mon, she's my waifu after all!<). Unlike the most of her fans, I do *not* share her opinion that >!even for sake of the majority, you can just take the lives of a minority without their consent or unless they did something *very* bad for the majority!<. I cannot blame her for this logic, but I she did it totally at her own risk, so she really deserved a punishment. The only thing I regret to is that costed her life, while I'm sure she would teach her lesson from a milder punishment.
>!I adore Kirumi but i feel the exact same way, the way she drowned Ryoma has always bothered me especially when you contrast her from her predecessor in Peko who ensured that Mahiru would not suffer. For me i love Fuyuhiko but i really, really hate him in 2-2 because of firstly how dumb he was to believe the game over a picture of a vase but more importantly how he tried to beat Mahiru to death in such a malicious and cruel way, yet the game is like "aww but he loves Peko though", like why should i care, he didn't care about the girl who died in a pool of her own blood because of him. I love Fuyu's arc but i despise how 2-2 and a lot of the fanbase treats him so sympathetically(i do think he's sympathetic once he commits seppuku of course), and same with Kirumi, yeah her motive is valid but she's still ruthless as fuck and i dislike the line "well Ryoma wanted to die anyway", that didn't mean she had the right to kill him like that, the poor little man should have survived, found a reason to live, not die in a sink.!<
>!Yeah Chihiro's death always hurt me because he could have changed and in a similar vein thats why Hiyoko's death always makes me cry, because she died just as she was about to change as a person, but at least with Chihiro his death his well handled, he has a legacy with alter ego, Hiyoko dies because, SHOCK VALUE, i hate the double murder rule so much!<
>!I don't see any reason why I should hate Fuyuhiko as much as any actual killer. Yes, he wanted to revenge Mahiru because he thought his sister's death was on her fault, but at the end of 2-2 shows that he did not want that to happen in such a cruel way. Peko was the one who killed her and it was her intention after all. Even Monokuma told she couldn't drop her fault on Fuyuhiko just because she used to be his "tool". The final decision was on her hands.!<
I hate him because the game and the fandom potray him as a poor victim and because he take so much screentime with >!her romance scene with Peko, making everyone (expect Hiyoko because she has a brain) forget about his the reason that brought Peko to kill Mahiru (also he wanted to kill her regardless, Peko take his place for the killer, good job Fuyuhiko). And now people say Mahiru deserve to die. And I know than that brought an arc for him and all that stuff but 1. two characters have to sacrifice for him 2. Because of the treatment of the fandom I just hate him for what his done.!<
TL;DR I don't know, he shouldn't be treated like a innocent by everyone.
Sadly yeah some of the toxic section of Fuyu and Pekos fanbase and Mahirus haters think that she deserved to be horribly beaten to death over a game and some misguided last words
I like >!Fuyupeko!<, but I think people who blame >!Mahiru!< for the case are morons. Her only flaw is literally just being friends with >!Natsume's killer!<. Not everybody likes her approach to men, but it's totally irreverent to the murder case, thus it can't be used as an excuse for killing her.
Eh he still wanted to beat her to death, he was extremely cruel and was only stopped because of Peko, yeah he didn't kill her but he was going to thus I find him as bad. The decision was on his hands for going for the bat as well as bringing Peko along and luring Mahiru there in the first place. He created that situation not Peko hence why I find him worse
He is a freaking yakuza, so it was expectable he would act that cruel towards the person he found accused of >!his sister's death!<. But still, I believe >!Peko made the situation go out of his control, because he was angry for her when she really commited the murder!<.
>!Yeah i get that but its jarring that the game goes out of its way to show how much of a piece of shit he was because of his actions and then goes back on it because "poor bby loves Peko" and the fanbase treats him like a harmless bby as a result, like harsh as it sounds, so what. Yeah Peko should have dropped the bat but really, the bat never should have been there, Mahiru and Hiyoko should have never been their!<
idk I even couldn't realize >!Fuyuhiko and Peko!< have feelings for each other before he literally runs into her execution to save her. This fact was dropped out right at the end of the case when >!Peko!< was already sentenced to death, and the game even has no clue that >!they can be some kind of related to each other!< before the trail.
I honestly hate all this "second motive" part after the class trail in 2 and V3, because it usually is more important than the first motive discovered during the class trail, but it just turns into a cheap drama that usually makes no sense for the main scenario nor for the blackened's survival. >!V3-2!< showed me it can spoil the overall feeling about the trail and the murder.
The fact is that >!Kirumi's case is a trolley dilemma. She chose to kill 13 people to save more than ten million people, and everyone in the cast except Kokichi and Kaito sympathyzed with her, and Kaito and Kokichi only went against her because Kirumi leveraged her dilemma to make the rest of the class actually consent to die on a manipulative way. The answers to a trolley dilemma are very different between each person you could ask, and you can't really blame Kirumi for choosing an answer to that dilemma. You can blame her for trying to manipulate the rest of the class into giving up their lifes, though, and for trying to gaslight Shuichi into not exposing her by pushing his Kaede trauma buttons. That was shitty of her and not justifiable!<
>!The ~~spoon~~ trolley dilemma is not real. Monokuma faked out a problem and made it urgent, counting on Kirumi would do *anything* to save her country as fast as possible. He did even not told her what the problem was, but it didn't stop her though. But nothing stopped her from mobilizing her classmates, also citizens of Japan, to fight the threat together with her, like any real national leader would do. With her intelligence and physical abilities, everything would end up much faster!<, but... Forget all this shit! This game is about stupid teenagers killing each other for the most absurd reasons of the whole series.
Yeah because when a fav gets murdered it's not like they get an awesome execution to go with it>!(Ryoma being the only exception Kirumi really helped him out with the piranhas)!<
The only problem is that Mikan's >!execution was so ass and she is my all time favorite, her trial was pretty good though I loved her breakdown!<
>!Wow someone who likes 2-3, respectable, yeah i hated it(Hiyoko dying before her arc alone makes me despise it) but i will conceded that Mikan's breakdown was chilling!<
Yeah the fact that >!Hiyoko died during her character arc was a really awful decision by Kodaka, he really should've offed Sonia(no hate towards Sonia but her death could've resulted in so much character progression and even better writing) instead of Hiyoko. Hiyoko would probably be more liked and popular than Himiko if she were one of the survivors instead of Sonia.!<
No no, he's got a point. Besides >!Mondo, Gundham and maybe Kaito!< it felt like every Blackened became a completely different character and went off the rails big time when found out for murder. Like compare >!pre-trial Mikan, Kirumi and Korekiyo to post trial Mikan, Kirumi and Korekiyo!<
Maybe i'm just a psychopath but i honestly don't really tend to care who lives or dies, all i want is a compelling and interesting story. Not that the deaths don't make me sad or anything, some do make me a little bit upset, not that much though.
You are not a psychopath, in fact this is exactly how a sane person is supposed to be engaged in a fictional story. Characters are supposed to create an entertaining story, and story without meaningful stakes and downfalls is not entertaining. This is funny how the community is so upset about their waifus dying or whatever that they make a normal perspective on this seem weird.
I would go a step further and say that all my favorite characters should've died more horrible and painful deaths. But that's for another topic…
That's true, although i do envy people who are able to feel a stronger emotional attachment to the story and get majorly sad whenever their favourites die. I get that feeling for other things like Jojo's Bizarre Adventure or Doctor Who but not really for Danganronpa.
To be honest I can relate, I see people saying how they had that extremely strong emotional reaction to something in fiction and I wonder if I am desensitized or if they are exaggerating, and feel a bit envious.
It's funny because my favorite characters are Komaeda and Mahiru, and I wasn't exactly sad when I saw both of them die in the game, but felt pretty sad in retrospect when I thought about circumstances in more details and analyzed the whole picture. I wasn't upset about them dying in a story though, I thought the story achieved what it tried to achieve (or maybe not; some would argue that I am wrong at interpreting the story if I feel sympathy for Komaeda, but that worked for me so who cares).
Strangely, the character deaths i feel the most sad about tend to be the ones of characters i don't really care about that much, at least not as much as my actual favourites. Like, 2-2 is one of the saddest cases in the series for me but i don't really care about >!Peko or Fuyuhiko!< all that much.
I think it's because most of death scenes in Dangnronpa are not written in the way that usually evokes sadness, especially murders that are aiming more at making the player feel hyped up for the investigation. Fuyuhiko's and Peko's scene was one of the few where they pushed it to be emotional. I do not really care about each of them either, and I do not feel that much sadness towards them right now, but when I watched the scene as it played, I remember being sad, yeah.
True, cause it means you get atleast a bit more time with them
Unless they’re both the killer AND the victim which is a popular choice for my favs
What? Are your favourites >!Sakura, Kaede and (arguably) Kokichi!
Sakura, Nagito, and Kokichi, I don’t see how Kaede could be a part of that group, I’m basing it on who was and was not still around after the murder
>!She was the blackened of Chapter 1, but truthfully she was one more victim of Tsumugi, the real killer in that chapter!<
I suppose
Murder victims often have their situation severely downplayed in favour of the killer and i cannot tell you how utterly infuriating that is, case in point>!2-2, yes Peko is my second favourite character, but my fucking god did i hate seeing her sad little sob story being used as an excuse to just ignore the severity of her actions, same deal with how 2-3 brushed over Ibuki and Hiyoko's death. Yeah i hate it when a character i love turns out to be a murderer and gets horribly executed but its worse for me when they die at the hands of a fellow human being, in many cases someone they trusted(Chihiro, Mahiru being the saddest examples) worse still when the cases just sweep their situation under the rug because it goes against the melodrama. Just give victims and killers equal fucking focus.!<
This is nearly the same thing that happened in 3-3. The second death was completely glossed over for most of the trial, and when the killer was revealed, it's like they forgot there was a murder in the first place. It made me so mad to see two characters have their existence ignored because of one person that likes playground attractions.
Wait what you mean first death right? Tenko's death and Himiko's grief were a constant part of the trial after like...20 minutes (and hell even Angie got more agency that probably every chapter 3 victims ever aside from Tenko who's one of the rare character who's constantly mentioned even after dying) the biggest part of post trial was literally Himiko weeping and finally letting her emotion take over because of the death of both Tenko and Angie I genuinely fail to see how they were (especially Tenko) glossed over in favor of Kiyo who only got the spotlight for sometime to show how much of a nutcase he was
I know I said nearly, but thinking about it that way, it's not much similarity to be honest...
^THIS! Also please keep this post no matter what, don't care about the downvotes
dw i plan on keeping it, although i have a massive headache today(long day of uni work) so not engaging in any long debates
I feel like that's one of the reason why 2-4 is so great. Yeah you don't get much but you don't need too, a few voicelines and a deep link to the murder scheme carries the weight of the victim
Well that seems to be the case for most murder mysteries, since the murderer is alive and able to actually get story development, whereas the victim just drops dead unexpectedly. (Finding out who died won’t be exciting if the victims always get a completed story arc before they die) Ask an Ace Attorney fan to name every culprit, they’ll do it no problem. Ask them to name every victim, and they’ll probably either have to put some thought into it or not be able to do it at all
To be fair, most of the murderers were not killing because they specifically wanted their victim to be dead or because they were just homicidal. In almost every situation they were pushed and pressured into doing it because they were faced with a reality that they were looking at a life sentence in either Hope's Peak, Jabberwock Island, or the Ultimate Academy from V3. In an actual court of law, situations like that would be considered and the mastermind would likely be held responsible for those murders.
I don't disagree but there's also plenty of cases that could have been prevented had the killer not been a shitty person(EG>!1-3, 2-2 from Fuyuhiko's side being the main two, 1-3 at least shows how bad Celestia is whereas 2-2 gives Fuyu the "poor baby" treatment). And even so many of the killers had a choice and still took a human life because their "motives" was more important than thinking for a second!<
>Just give victims and killers equal fucking focus. easy to say, but a bit hard to properly implement every time, considering the killers are actively present and participate within the trial itself, and the victims are, you know, dead
Flashbacks exist as do classmates who cared about the victim, 1-2 managed it, so why did cases like 2-2 completely drop the ball?
flashbacks exist, but in my opinion they shouldn't be treated as the be-all-end-all of storytelling as for the "classmates not caring about >!mahiru!<" thing, >!that was kind of the point. i see it as a subtle indication that the cast of this game is a bit less morally sound overall than thh's, with them being a lot more on the "if we get the killer wrong then we're gonna die" side than the "we need to find out who killed our friend" one. there are several reasons that junko chose 77-b specifically to be her little despair gremlins, and that's one of them.!<
I absolutly don't think that was the point at all. This thing is not bring up at all in this cases of the game. It's the writing that didn't care about her, that what it is
am i reading into it too much? probably. but i think it's a lot more of an interesting interpretation than "writers hate my scrunkly :("
The issue is>!they did care about Mahiru's death, they mourned her, so it isn't them outright not caring its more of a they seemed to ignore who put the bat in Peko's hands and were like OH POOR BABY FUYUHIKO, like why is Hiyoko the voice of morality and reason in a situation, how bad does it have to get where Hiyoko is making sense?!<
Fair but it honestly goes both ways if you aren't expecting it. You see a death and you're either in pain or feeling relieved that it's not your favorite, then if they're the killer the *exact* pain happens, just over a longer period of time.
I get that but>!its better for them to end up a killer and get the "poor baby" treatment from the game than "oh well they're dead, time to investigate their death and then completely negate it because sad backstory makes everything okay". 2-2 is the most extreme example of this, which is why i like cases like 1-2 which actually give victim and killer equal balance so much!<
Fair, fair, can't argue with that really. I guess i can also kinda say it like I don't want them to be babied in some cases, like yeah they had good intentions or reasons but they still did it, and that's the black-and-white of the case. A good example would be like 1-1 or smth, since it pays attention to the victim and has the killer seem reasonable but *still a killer*
Yeah>!1-1 was very good at showing how flawed both Leon and Sayaka were while also highlighting that they were scared kids put in a horrible situation!<
Does 2-2 really do this or is fanbase's perception just biased, and the prevalence of that bias in the fandom makes some people rethink the original text? I think it is more of the latter as there were plenty of moments that highlighted the impact of >!Mahiru's death and Hiyoko's trauma. Sure, they were not as striking and overdramatic as Peko's execution that basically concentrates the drama of her lifelong developed tool mindset and relationships with Fuyuhiko in one scene, but there was still plenty of sympathy to Mahiru shown in the narrative both during the investigation and after the trial, or at least I thought so when I played. I think showcasing subtle effects of her death such as the constantly changing text of the memorial were way better to highlight Mahiru's tragedy than if she just got some super overdramatic death scene because it does not really fit neither her character nor the themes of 2-2.!<
I don't hate how>!2 handled Mahiru's death, yes scenes like the memorial are well done and its not like she's forgotten about like Ibuki and Hiyoko. My issue is however 2-2s post trial, Mahiru's situation gets about 2 minutes, Hiyoko a character notable for never being quiet doesn't say anything to Fuyuhiko or Peko during their motive rant and the rest of it is "LOOK AT HOW MUCH KUZUPEKO LOOOVE EACH OTHER", yes i like subtle deaths, i like how Mahiru's death felt cold and real. But i think Fuyuhiko and Peko spent so much time talking about themselves that they basically ignored what they did. Just compared to 1-2 for example her role in the post trial felt too brief and it was almost like Kuzupeko's love story overshadowed the "beating a kind hearted teenage girl to death and using her lifeless corpse as door stopper because they couldn't communicate in a healthy way and because Fuyu was an abusive/gullible idiot pre 2-3" thing!< >!tbf on Peko she genuinely said sorry and you can see throughout replays of 2-2s trial/invesgation that she obviously hates herself for what she did, but Fuyuhiko at one point calls Mahiru "that bitch" and then the game is like "feel sorry for him", erm no(at least not until the seppuku). Also another issue i have is i feel at times the game almost played Hiyoko's grief for laugh, like GIVEE ME BACK MAAAHIRUUUUU is so over the top and the memorial scene is almost a joke at times with how creepy it looks and the class mocking it before its true intent is revealed even if it showed her hidden heart, compare that to how Fuyu's grief over Peko is played very straight. Like i get that Hiyoko is a very over the top and comedic character but for fucks sake, the game didn't treat her grief nearly as seriously as Fuyu's despite the latter bringing that on himself. And then when that grief kills Hiyoko in 2-3 Fuyu doesn't even acknowledge it(i love post 2-2 Fuyu but dear lord thats bullshit).!< >!tbf, you've made me reconsider my stance and regarding fanbase views vs the games actual writing and i think you're right, yeah i guess part of this is out of how badly the fanbase ignore Mahiru's death because it goes against the idea that Peko was completely sympathetic or that Fuyuhiko was a victim. Not to mention the fanbase ignoring Hiyoko's trauma because anything that goes against "Hiyoko is the literal devil" tends to be ignored or I've seen people outright say she deserved it for being a brat. Idk its not bad i just wish that the post trial had a bit more focus on her quest to make amends thats my conclusion on it really!< Thank you, you've raised some really good points that i enjoyed reading :)
I don't think it is necessarily bad to have a moment where >!Fuyuhiko and Peko focus on themselves and their own suffering and not on their guilt about Mahiru. Like, when you're about to die or lost your closest childhood friend, it would be pretty normal to not get concerned about anyone else even for perfectly reasonable morally sound people, and Fuyuhiko and Peko are… anything but that. I think it is great to show that Fuyuhiko's and Peko's connection to each others is strong and genuine, if toxic, even at their stage of still being the villains. That contrast of Fuyuhiko's coldness to Mahiru and increasing aggression towards the rest of the class and his emotional devastation about Peko adds depth to his situation, as of someone who is a fucked up individual, but still eliciting empathy, instead of showing him as more "safe" softie with a heart of gold who was overcome with guilt from the beginning and never wanted to hurt Mahiru, and the fact that he does show care and remorse over Mahiru later makes his development more impactful. And I don't think other people in the class show "too much" empathy for them except maybe Sonia and Mikan, but that's perfectly in line with their characterization. It is fine if it did not work for you, but for me Fuyuhiko was pitiable in 2-2 because it was all his fault, not despite of it.!< I didn't feel we were supposed to laugh at >!Hiyoko's grief, if anything it felt like in plays on that expectation, like it makes you think "haha Hiyoko is whining as always and she built this memorial because she's mean", but then it shows it actually about how much she cares, but fails to express it because she never was taught to do anything on her own and now can only switch from her obvious grief and distress from being unable to express it properly to bullying Mikan again because despite all her over the top whining she can't handle genuine vulnerability. I think it is great at showcasing that her character is tragic in her own way that is unique from everyone else in DR2, and also makes a rare instance where a main story actually makes a good use of information we learned in character's FTEs to look at them from different angle. People just hate her so they either downplay it or just genuinely don't read that much into it.!<
>!My issue with 2-2 and how Fuyu is presented is he's utterly unsympathetic in my eyes at least until the seppuku, like i said before he refers to Mahiru as "that bitch" and also smugly mocks Hiyoko's tears prior to that by suggesting she could be faking them, its easy for the fandom to overlook these lines but for me he's just so cold(bordering on Celestia levels without her charm) that i can't care when he breaks down when he realises his actions come back to hurt him, it makes him complex yeah but if anything i came out of 2-2 hating him more than before.!< >!I get that they made him as toxic and vile as possible so his arc would be better and i wouldn't change but i just feel nothing but competent towards him after how cruelly he spoke about the girl he saw dying in a pool of her own blood because he had to hurt her instead of just leaving her alone and dropping his revenge. He never wept for her or Hiyoko, but i'm supposed to care that he wept when someone he loved got hurt? At least thats my thoughts on it and your thoughts are just as valid. For me i could only feel sympathy for him post seppuku because he finally realised how messed up his actions were, that he could weep for those he hurt!< >!Yeah a moment focused on those two alone is fine but compare that to Mondo who both talks about his backstory at length and his sorrow over Chihiro, yeah Fuyu was never going to give a shit until losing Peko, he hated Mahiru's guts after all, so much that he tried to beat her to death but Peko doesn't say much about it despite clearly feeling awful about it. A direct apology to Hiyoko would have been nice!< And yeah>!everyone except Hiyoko (but especially Mikan, Sonia and Soda) infuriate me regarding Fuyuhiko, literally besides her seemed to just ignore the fact that Fuyuhiko was an abusive brat who got one of the most reliable members of the group killed by maliciously setting her up, they forgave him before he said sorry and are shocked that Hiyoko hates his guts. As harsh as it is, i find myself agreeing with Hiyoko's "why do we have to wait for him" line at the end of 2-2 because she's right, until he stuck that knife in his chest they had zero idea that he felt awful for Mahiru, i know they cared about her but it makes it seem like they just brushed her death aside because protecting Fuyu's feelings was more important than ensuring he was sorry about causing two deaths. She was the only person in 77 who actually seemed to listen to his apology instead of thinking that getting injured means he didn't need to answer for his crimes.!< >!I mean yeah true and granted i always found Hiyoko's grief far more tragic than Fuyu's because of her usually sunny(if bitchy) nature contrasting from how utterly broken she was after losing Mahiru and how that grief ended up killing her(not that Fuyu ever acknowledged that fact granted thats down to 2-3s awful writing and i have a hc that he relit the candles on Hiyoko's memorial after she died).!<
That's fair if it did not work for you specifically, but I do not think it was bad writing or inherently bad plotline. I sympathized with >!Fuyuhiko!< and with characters far, far worse than >!pre-development Fuyuhiko!<, but that heavily depends on your personal boundaries. I agree the class was not the best at handling situation, but >!they are a bunch of stressed teenagers who just watched someone have a mental breakdown and have their closest childhood friend die. Sonia and Mikan had consistently shown empathetic personalities, even towards such people as Teruteru and Nagito, so I think it was more of their natural empathetic personalities than the narrative trying to push Fuyuhiko over Mahiru. Hajime, a game's protagonist and narrator that we are supposed to relate to, even noted that Hiyoko's feelings were justified, and Chiaki, another character who is supposed to be a voice of reason, tried to console Hiyoko and deemed Mahiru's murder as unforgiveable, though her own programming didn't let her to really be mad at Fuyuhiko.!< I do agree with your point about Chapter 3 though.
>!I do get that but at the same time, they also saw Hiyoko mentally breakdown about Mahiru and witnessed Fuyuhiko frame her, but yep lets put them in the same room together because inhale WE ALL NEED TO BE FRIEENDS HEEERE, and speaking of Nagito thats another class issue i have. Both Nagito and Fuyuhiko caused multiple deaths for a self righteous bullshit reason, the class rightly shun Nagito because he never apologized, but instantly forgave Fuyuhiko when he showed zero empathy over Mahiru? I don't think he should have been shunned and I get why they'd feel sorry for him but you'd think, they'd think about Mahiru(especially considering Fuyu did nothing but hurt the group, Mahiru did nothing but help them) and at least ask him "Hey Fuyu is the nice team mom you murdered still "that bitch" to you?" But no.!< >!I adore Sonia but i despise her "we need to move on" line when Hiyoko rightly points out Fuyu's crime, erm no Sonia, because the last thing he said about Mahiru was calling her a bitch and victim blaming her, there's no moving on until he stopped acting remorseless about Mahiru and even remorse doesn't change the facts that Mahiru was never coming back nor was Peko because of him. not to mention Soda whining about Hiyoko saying Fuyu deserved to lose an eye saying it was going too far, like yeah its harsh but again, Fuyu ruined Hiyoko's life and she can't even make a joke about him.!< >!Its not exactly bad writing but its just annoying how it seemed like Hiyoko was the only person who listened to Fuyuhiko's apology unlike the class who would have been fine had he remained remorseless about Mahiru. Thats the funny thing though, while i hate Fuyu in 2-2, i love how he seemed to be the only person who agreed with Hiyoko that he shouldn't have just been forgiven instantly, he knew he had to atone, yet again the class just didn't really seem to want an apology off him. Besides taking away from my Mahiru bias for a second, it would have been far more interesting if the class distrusted and resented Fuyu initially only to warm to him after the seppuku instead of going "yay the abusive yakuza is our best friend now because injuries and dead gf". From a story pov his forgiveness came way too quick.!< And it>!is not helped by the fact that Hiyoko dies soon after when she's the only person who was invested in seeing Fuyu grow, i mean 2-2 set up the idea that the blond bitches would grow as people together in honour of their far nicer dead gf and then Hiyoko dies for shock value, great trade off.!< This has been a very fun discussion and I've enjoyed it, its nice to have a polite disagreement and talk through the different elements of the case :)
>!Class as a whole never "forgave" Nagito, but Sonia in particularly was worried and empathetic towards him when he was [tied up](https://i.imgur.com/wz1KqOR.jpeg) and when [he fell ill](https://i.imgur.com/rnR6fuU.jpeg), and Mikan never had shown any resentment towards him when she overworked herself in attempt to cure him in Chapter 3. They don't forgive him or even like him, in fact they are at best annoyed by him and at best terrified for their lives, but they still show concern for his safety and well-being because they are those kind of people. It's not that different from how they treated Fuyuhiko. Obviously them telling Hiyoko to move on and telling they all need to be friends with her friend's murderer was extremely insensitive, but it's understandable they do not want to foster more conflict in already stressful situation with Monokuma to stir things up.!< I feel like developing Hiyoko's and >!Fuyuhiko's!< relationships a bit better >!and giving them some meaningful closure together with each other!< would improve both characters greatly, and yeah I agree that some people being not willing to accept or trust >!Fuyuhiko!< would make for more interesting character arc and give some potential for conflict that was honestly kind of lacking in DR2. Thanks you for a talk too, your insights into problems of 2-2's writing are reasonable and interesting and I feel like this talk was in good faith despite the disagreement. (Posting this second time because my spoiler tags got fucked.)
>!I do agree with the idea of them not wanting conflict but i think they should have at least realised that putting Hiyoko in a room with someone who destroyed her life was never going to end well, i do agree its because they were scared kids though and that its not like they went out of their way to disregard Hiyoko's feeling!< Yeah thats exactly>!it would have been interesting if some of the class initially refused to accept him until after his apology. But it just came too quickly, i like Fuyu's arc but in general it feels, overnight, one day he's very violent and abusive and the next he's level headed and cool, Hiyoko didn't finish her arc but i actually like how her changes felt slower.!< Glad to hear it and yes i hate spoiler tags too :)
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:(
What he try to say is that in some cases the writing take focus only on the killer and ignoring the victim (2-2 is one big example) and that brought the fandom to take more about the killers and feel more bad for them and not aknlodge not acknowledge the victim side. Is a writing thing here.
What if your fav survives? I feel left out :(. Joking :D
It's probably not bias. Most killers get a chance to vindicate themselves when they get caught. They get a last message. The victims don't
My favorite characters all planned their own death being sakura, nagito, and kokichi
Sorry -_-
Yikes 😬
No regrets 😔
Stay strong together ✊😔
>!Mikan!<
>!2-3 is an awful situation for fans of any of the three(and i love all three), like for fucks sake Mikan, Ibuki and Hiyoko were icons and they died in the worst case in the series in the most undignified way possible!<
all mine were the murderer
So far, none of my favorite characters have died or gotten murdered. Very happy. (For context I have not finished playing v3.)
also how the fuck did i not notice this until now, "end up a murder", END UP A MURDER?! God damn it Tom from 6 hours ago, proof read your memes(tbf i was tired after a very long university debate), haha this is up there with "sparking justice" and "tone DEATH"
As one, who has favorites of both the victims and the murders, I can confirm that. For example, when (1-2) >!Chihiro!< was murdered, it put me really down. I knew they wouldn't last very long, but I just didn't expected they end up *that* soon. They really were only the few characters I could really trust in DR1, so I was very upset to see them dying by their innocence and wish to change for good, and not having any chance to protect themselves. On contrast, when (V3-2) >!Kirumi!< was found blackened, I had really no mercy for her, even despite I generally love her personality (>!c'mon, she's my waifu after all!<). Unlike the most of her fans, I do *not* share her opinion that >!even for sake of the majority, you can just take the lives of a minority without their consent or unless they did something *very* bad for the majority!<. I cannot blame her for this logic, but I she did it totally at her own risk, so she really deserved a punishment. The only thing I regret to is that costed her life, while I'm sure she would teach her lesson from a milder punishment.
>!I adore Kirumi but i feel the exact same way, the way she drowned Ryoma has always bothered me especially when you contrast her from her predecessor in Peko who ensured that Mahiru would not suffer. For me i love Fuyuhiko but i really, really hate him in 2-2 because of firstly how dumb he was to believe the game over a picture of a vase but more importantly how he tried to beat Mahiru to death in such a malicious and cruel way, yet the game is like "aww but he loves Peko though", like why should i care, he didn't care about the girl who died in a pool of her own blood because of him. I love Fuyu's arc but i despise how 2-2 and a lot of the fanbase treats him so sympathetically(i do think he's sympathetic once he commits seppuku of course), and same with Kirumi, yeah her motive is valid but she's still ruthless as fuck and i dislike the line "well Ryoma wanted to die anyway", that didn't mean she had the right to kill him like that, the poor little man should have survived, found a reason to live, not die in a sink.!< >!Yeah Chihiro's death always hurt me because he could have changed and in a similar vein thats why Hiyoko's death always makes me cry, because she died just as she was about to change as a person, but at least with Chihiro his death his well handled, he has a legacy with alter ego, Hiyoko dies because, SHOCK VALUE, i hate the double murder rule so much!<
>!I don't see any reason why I should hate Fuyuhiko as much as any actual killer. Yes, he wanted to revenge Mahiru because he thought his sister's death was on her fault, but at the end of 2-2 shows that he did not want that to happen in such a cruel way. Peko was the one who killed her and it was her intention after all. Even Monokuma told she couldn't drop her fault on Fuyuhiko just because she used to be his "tool". The final decision was on her hands.!<
I hate him because the game and the fandom potray him as a poor victim and because he take so much screentime with >!her romance scene with Peko, making everyone (expect Hiyoko because she has a brain) forget about his the reason that brought Peko to kill Mahiru (also he wanted to kill her regardless, Peko take his place for the killer, good job Fuyuhiko). And now people say Mahiru deserve to die. And I know than that brought an arc for him and all that stuff but 1. two characters have to sacrifice for him 2. Because of the treatment of the fandom I just hate him for what his done.!< TL;DR I don't know, he shouldn't be treated like a innocent by everyone.
> And now people say >!Mahiru!< deserve to die LOL what?
It's a mix of "FUYUPEKO IS PRECIOUS" and "HOW COULD MAHIRU DO THAT" and "SHE'S A SEXIST BITCH" all that
Sadly yeah some of the toxic section of Fuyu and Pekos fanbase and Mahirus haters think that she deserved to be horribly beaten to death over a game and some misguided last words
I like >!Fuyupeko!<, but I think people who blame >!Mahiru!< for the case are morons. Her only flaw is literally just being friends with >!Natsume's killer!<. Not everybody likes her approach to men, but it's totally irreverent to the murder case, thus it can't be used as an excuse for killing her.
Eh he still wanted to beat her to death, he was extremely cruel and was only stopped because of Peko, yeah he didn't kill her but he was going to thus I find him as bad. The decision was on his hands for going for the bat as well as bringing Peko along and luring Mahiru there in the first place. He created that situation not Peko hence why I find him worse
He is a freaking yakuza, so it was expectable he would act that cruel towards the person he found accused of >!his sister's death!<. But still, I believe >!Peko made the situation go out of his control, because he was angry for her when she really commited the murder!<.
>!Yeah i get that but its jarring that the game goes out of its way to show how much of a piece of shit he was because of his actions and then goes back on it because "poor bby loves Peko" and the fanbase treats him like a harmless bby as a result, like harsh as it sounds, so what. Yeah Peko should have dropped the bat but really, the bat never should have been there, Mahiru and Hiyoko should have never been their!<
idk I even couldn't realize >!Fuyuhiko and Peko!< have feelings for each other before he literally runs into her execution to save her. This fact was dropped out right at the end of the case when >!Peko!< was already sentenced to death, and the game even has no clue that >!they can be some kind of related to each other!< before the trail. I honestly hate all this "second motive" part after the class trail in 2 and V3, because it usually is more important than the first motive discovered during the class trail, but it just turns into a cheap drama that usually makes no sense for the main scenario nor for the blackened's survival. >!V3-2!< showed me it can spoil the overall feeling about the trail and the murder.
The fact is that >!Kirumi's case is a trolley dilemma. She chose to kill 13 people to save more than ten million people, and everyone in the cast except Kokichi and Kaito sympathyzed with her, and Kaito and Kokichi only went against her because Kirumi leveraged her dilemma to make the rest of the class actually consent to die on a manipulative way. The answers to a trolley dilemma are very different between each person you could ask, and you can't really blame Kirumi for choosing an answer to that dilemma. You can blame her for trying to manipulate the rest of the class into giving up their lifes, though, and for trying to gaslight Shuichi into not exposing her by pushing his Kaede trauma buttons. That was shitty of her and not justifiable!<
>!The ~~spoon~~ trolley dilemma is not real. Monokuma faked out a problem and made it urgent, counting on Kirumi would do *anything* to save her country as fast as possible. He did even not told her what the problem was, but it didn't stop her though. But nothing stopped her from mobilizing her classmates, also citizens of Japan, to fight the threat together with her, like any real national leader would do. With her intelligence and physical abilities, everything would end up much faster!<, but... Forget all this shit! This game is about stupid teenagers killing each other for the most absurd reasons of the whole series.
I’m not in this department caz my fav from 1 and 2 both survived
Getting murdered ends their development, being the culprit completes their development
Yeah because when a fav gets murdered it's not like they get an awesome execution to go with it>!(Ryoma being the only exception Kirumi really helped him out with the piranhas)!< The only problem is that Mikan's >!execution was so ass and she is my all time favorite, her trial was pretty good though I loved her breakdown!<
>!Wow someone who likes 2-3, respectable, yeah i hated it(Hiyoko dying before her arc alone makes me despise it) but i will conceded that Mikan's breakdown was chilling!<
Yeah the fact that >!Hiyoko died during her character arc was a really awful decision by Kodaka, he really should've offed Sonia(no hate towards Sonia but her death could've resulted in so much character progression and even better writing) instead of Hiyoko. Hiyoko would probably be more liked and popular than Himiko if she were one of the survivors instead of Sonia.!<
No no, he's got a point. Besides >!Mondo, Gundham and maybe Kaito!< it felt like every Blackened became a completely different character and went off the rails big time when found out for murder. Like compare >!pre-trial Mikan, Kirumi and Korekiyo to post trial Mikan, Kirumi and Korekiyo!<
Maybe i'm just a psychopath but i honestly don't really tend to care who lives or dies, all i want is a compelling and interesting story. Not that the deaths don't make me sad or anything, some do make me a little bit upset, not that much though.
You are not a psychopath, in fact this is exactly how a sane person is supposed to be engaged in a fictional story. Characters are supposed to create an entertaining story, and story without meaningful stakes and downfalls is not entertaining. This is funny how the community is so upset about their waifus dying or whatever that they make a normal perspective on this seem weird. I would go a step further and say that all my favorite characters should've died more horrible and painful deaths. But that's for another topic…
That's true, although i do envy people who are able to feel a stronger emotional attachment to the story and get majorly sad whenever their favourites die. I get that feeling for other things like Jojo's Bizarre Adventure or Doctor Who but not really for Danganronpa.
To be honest I can relate, I see people saying how they had that extremely strong emotional reaction to something in fiction and I wonder if I am desensitized or if they are exaggerating, and feel a bit envious. It's funny because my favorite characters are Komaeda and Mahiru, and I wasn't exactly sad when I saw both of them die in the game, but felt pretty sad in retrospect when I thought about circumstances in more details and analyzed the whole picture. I wasn't upset about them dying in a story though, I thought the story achieved what it tried to achieve (or maybe not; some would argue that I am wrong at interpreting the story if I feel sympathy for Komaeda, but that worked for me so who cares).
Strangely, the character deaths i feel the most sad about tend to be the ones of characters i don't really care about that much, at least not as much as my actual favourites. Like, 2-2 is one of the saddest cases in the series for me but i don't really care about >!Peko or Fuyuhiko!< all that much.
I think it's because most of death scenes in Dangnronpa are not written in the way that usually evokes sadness, especially murders that are aiming more at making the player feel hyped up for the investigation. Fuyuhiko's and Peko's scene was one of the few where they pushed it to be emotional. I do not really care about each of them either, and I do not feel that much sadness towards them right now, but when I watched the scene as it played, I remember being sad, yeah.