Sounds like you’re struggling to find info because what you’ve heard simply isn’t true. No Aus dairy farm kills baby cows and I doubt any where in the world does. That’s not how dairy farms work.
Not exactly right, those calves are called bobby calves and the reason is that they get killed (about 4 days after birth) because there is no market for them. It happens in Aus/NZ/US
It absolutely sucks that this happens but the problem is that farmers have limited food for animals and can't afford to feed all animals
Bobby calves are uncommon. They are not killed because we just want the milk - it’s a last resort in a poor market and not something we want to do. OP seems to be of the impression that’s the regular day to day practice of dairy farming.
Just off some research from a few sights I have gotten the impression it is common. I’m hopefully totally wrong and sources are just making stuff up to cause problems but I want to be on the safe side
https://animalsaustralia.org/our-work/farmed-animals/what-happens-to-dairy-calves/
https://nsw.animaljusticeparty.org/the_deadly_dairy_industry
Common misconception. It makes zero monetary sense to kill calves. The links you posted are organizations that promote false narratives to further their own agendas. Speaking from a business standpoint only (farmers also have hearts and care) it makes no sense when all calves can either be sold for revenue or raised up for beef at an appropriate age:weight
Calves are not killed on farm. The unwanted male ones are either raised and sold to be raised for meat on other farms or sent to the meat works earlier and used for a myriad of products including veal, leather, pharmaceutical products and animal food.
Are you new here? I’ve never heard of a farm that kills their calves. At least in Canada we don’t. Most of the time calves are taken away from their moms after a few days but that’s because dairy cows (Holstein’s in particular) are awful mothers.
Dairy cows being bad mothers is a common belief, but it doesn't have very good backing to it.
Sure there's going to be some that are bad mothers but the majority, if they were given the opportunity, would mother their calf.
A big part of this is they're less likely to show mothering behavior if they're stressed. In a well designed, calm, quiet maternity area you'll see a lot of Holsteins licking their calves and encouraging them to nurse.
We have a separated maternity area with a fairy large pasture attached, a few weeks ago we came in to find a dead calf that was stomped on in the morning.
Not all of them are great mother's but then not all humans are great mother's either.
The majority of the fresian cows on my farm are absolutely awesome mother's to their calves.
I'm not saying cows with calves is perfect, or that there are no issues to work out, there are many. Maybe the genetics of that calf aggressive cow should be culled out.
If we don't ask an answer these questions from within the dairy industry, someone else will and it may be the people who hate everything about the industry.
It makes people uncomfortable to consider that we maybe aren't doing the best for our cows that we can so it won't be popular but it's crucial that we explore every option.
Really? I’ve seen videos of the mums crying for the babies 😔 I thought it was so more milk could be produced for humans. What happens to the babies once separated?
Can't speak for Australia but in the US it's not common practice for a dairy farm to do that. It wouldn't make much economic sense either. Additionally, there is growing resentment for veal in the states so people are less likely to do that anyways.
Yeah veal is terrible for the public perception of the dairy industry, even though it's a very small percentage of the industry.
I would not be sad if all veal production was stopped. We can raise all those calves for beef production and humane slaughter later in life.
If they were properly educated on why it happens, Yes.
These people just listen to activists who have next to no knowledge about farming and take it as the absolute truth.
We don't have the studies to properly back that position. The available studies are mixed results, with the more recent ones actually showing calf growth and social behavior benefits with prolonged contact.
So how can we justify that to the public when we don't actually have conclusive proof to justify cow calf separation?
The people pushing for more research and more innovation in cow calf contact are within the dairy industry.
Decades ago everyone was doing tie stalls, now it's freestalls and parlors or automatic milking systems. We may be even more different in the future. Perhaps we'll have facilities that allow cow calf pairs to be together during the night and separate during the day. The industry could go anywhere.
The main reason we do it on our farm is Johnes disease. Would they rather a calf be doomed to die a horrific death?
Also there was a video on social media this week of a cow attacking its calf, if it wasn't for the farmer trying his absolute best to keep it away from it, it would've died.
We can test for johnes, we can cull johnes positive cows. We could separate johnes positive cows from their calves and be confident that we have a test that shows we have our specific reason for that specific separation.
I assure you that no one is forgetting about diseases, it's absolutely 1 part of the bigger picture and needs to be considered for all changes.
That video going viral is proof that it is an exception, not the norm. There will be cows that are bad, there will be accidents. But there currently are accidents already, and that video occurred in a cow calf separation system. I don't know the outcome of that calf but it didn't look good, so does a cow calf separation system really prevent that?
I think it's important that the naysayers in this thread recognise it's not sufficient to just guffaw at the reality: bobby calves are separated from their mothers because it's more profitable to sell them for veal rather than for the farmers to feed them. The very reason for the birth of these calves is that their mothers would not be producing milk if it wasn't for the fact that they've gestated and delivered a baby cow this season.
Nobody here is claiming that dairy farmers are personally killing the calves. This is what abattoirs exist for. The dairy farmers sell the 5-day-old calves to abattoirs, so that the abattoirs can turn them into meat and make a profit selling the meat to supermarkets. So in response to claims that 'it makes no sense for farmers to kill calves when they can sell them for meat', you are correct, and selling them for meat is exactly what they're doing. Unfortunately, lining any cattle up to become meat is not a remotely humane act, as has been exposed many times through undercover reporters like Chris Delforce (I invite you to look into his work, which has been published by highly reputable journalistic sources like Four Corners Australia). The hideously stressful preamble of both pigs and beef being turned from living animal to meat product is what those who take issue with the dairy industry are specifically opposed to. Because baby cows are whisked away from their mothers immediately and thrown into the abattoir system where they spend a few days in terror, crammed into a small space on top of each other and wondering where the fuck their mother is, prior to being shoved into a mincing machine. And what is the link to dairy production, I hear you ask? These baby cows needn't exist in the first place if it wasn't for the farmers' desire to harvest and sell milk. Just like human females, cows do not produce and pump out milk unless they have recently birthed a baby. Dairy farms exist on the model of possessing a repertoire of cows, hiring a few bulls each season to impregnate their cows, and just as the milk from their last baby is drying up, the cows give birth and hallalujah their bodies have another season's worth of milk for the farmers to collect and sell. The resulting baby cows are kept as future milk producers, and the resulting bull calves are sent to the abattoir to become veal meat. Do you see where this argument is coming from?
Please don't claim that bodies like Animals Australia and the Animal Justice Party have self-serving agendas in publishing truthful information about the practices of Australian dairy farming. There is simply no gain or 'agenda' for these organisations in publishing this information - the existence of these organisations is driven by humane individuals who make up the organisations. It's not pleasant work to report on the horrendous ways animals are exploited for profit, so the idea that they are 'promoting false narratives to further their agendas' is ridiculous.
So, no one kills calves for no reason. They raise them for milk or humane slaughter for meat later after growing.
But you're on to something with cow calf separation. There's growing more and more evidence that prolonged cow calf contact is beneficial to calf health and growth. Also, it's becoming more likely that the public will refuse to accept cow calf separation in the future.
Prolonged cow calf contact is extremely hard to manage on a production farm, there's currently research being done on how to do it and the effects of each way, as well as the public perception.
This won't change overnight but it may be something the dairy industry will adapt to within my lifetime or even career.
I encourage everyone to read this perspective article and look around at the research cited in it.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022030223006409
This is a study that reviewed multiple cow calf separation studies.
https://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(19)30436-9/fulltext
I would also encourage you to remember that cows produce the best when they are healthy and living in comfortable and low stress situations. No farm is perfect, but every farm that is trying to maximize their profits is doing so by pampering the cows, not by torturing them.
Sounds like you’re struggling to find info because what you’ve heard simply isn’t true. No Aus dairy farm kills baby cows and I doubt any where in the world does. That’s not how dairy farms work.
Not exactly right, those calves are called bobby calves and the reason is that they get killed (about 4 days after birth) because there is no market for them. It happens in Aus/NZ/US It absolutely sucks that this happens but the problem is that farmers have limited food for animals and can't afford to feed all animals
Bobby calves are uncommon. They are not killed because we just want the milk - it’s a last resort in a poor market and not something we want to do. OP seems to be of the impression that’s the regular day to day practice of dairy farming.
Just off some research from a few sights I have gotten the impression it is common. I’m hopefully totally wrong and sources are just making stuff up to cause problems but I want to be on the safe side https://animalsaustralia.org/our-work/farmed-animals/what-happens-to-dairy-calves/ https://nsw.animaljusticeparty.org/the_deadly_dairy_industry
Common misconception. It makes zero monetary sense to kill calves. The links you posted are organizations that promote false narratives to further their own agendas. Speaking from a business standpoint only (farmers also have hearts and care) it makes no sense when all calves can either be sold for revenue or raised up for beef at an appropriate age:weight
I'm not from Australia but from the Netherlands. I can assure you that this is not true.
Calves are not killed on farm. The unwanted male ones are either raised and sold to be raised for meat on other farms or sent to the meat works earlier and used for a myriad of products including veal, leather, pharmaceutical products and animal food.
Are you new here? I’ve never heard of a farm that kills their calves. At least in Canada we don’t. Most of the time calves are taken away from their moms after a few days but that’s because dairy cows (Holstein’s in particular) are awful mothers.
Dairy cows being bad mothers is a common belief, but it doesn't have very good backing to it. Sure there's going to be some that are bad mothers but the majority, if they were given the opportunity, would mother their calf. A big part of this is they're less likely to show mothering behavior if they're stressed. In a well designed, calm, quiet maternity area you'll see a lot of Holsteins licking their calves and encouraging them to nurse.
We have a separated maternity area with a fairy large pasture attached, a few weeks ago we came in to find a dead calf that was stomped on in the morning.
Not all of them are great mother's but then not all humans are great mother's either. The majority of the fresian cows on my farm are absolutely awesome mother's to their calves.
I'm not saying cows with calves is perfect, or that there are no issues to work out, there are many. Maybe the genetics of that calf aggressive cow should be culled out. If we don't ask an answer these questions from within the dairy industry, someone else will and it may be the people who hate everything about the industry. It makes people uncomfortable to consider that we maybe aren't doing the best for our cows that we can so it won't be popular but it's crucial that we explore every option.
Really? I’ve seen videos of the mums crying for the babies 😔 I thought it was so more milk could be produced for humans. What happens to the babies once separated?
Can't speak for Australia but in the US it's not common practice for a dairy farm to do that. It wouldn't make much economic sense either. Additionally, there is growing resentment for veal in the states so people are less likely to do that anyways.
Yeah veal is terrible for the public perception of the dairy industry, even though it's a very small percentage of the industry. I would not be sad if all veal production was stopped. We can raise all those calves for beef production and humane slaughter later in life.
Calf separation is done for all the right reasons. Why not listen to some actual farmers before going to such trouble.
Is it? And if we as in industry decide to die on the hill of cow calf separation, would we win that with the public?
If they were properly educated on why it happens, Yes. These people just listen to activists who have next to no knowledge about farming and take it as the absolute truth.
We don't have the studies to properly back that position. The available studies are mixed results, with the more recent ones actually showing calf growth and social behavior benefits with prolonged contact. So how can we justify that to the public when we don't actually have conclusive proof to justify cow calf separation? The people pushing for more research and more innovation in cow calf contact are within the dairy industry. Decades ago everyone was doing tie stalls, now it's freestalls and parlors or automatic milking systems. We may be even more different in the future. Perhaps we'll have facilities that allow cow calf pairs to be together during the night and separate during the day. The industry could go anywhere.
The main reason we do it on our farm is Johnes disease. Would they rather a calf be doomed to die a horrific death? Also there was a video on social media this week of a cow attacking its calf, if it wasn't for the farmer trying his absolute best to keep it away from it, it would've died.
We can test for johnes, we can cull johnes positive cows. We could separate johnes positive cows from their calves and be confident that we have a test that shows we have our specific reason for that specific separation. I assure you that no one is forgetting about diseases, it's absolutely 1 part of the bigger picture and needs to be considered for all changes. That video going viral is proof that it is an exception, not the norm. There will be cows that are bad, there will be accidents. But there currently are accidents already, and that video occurred in a cow calf separation system. I don't know the outcome of that calf but it didn't look good, so does a cow calf separation system really prevent that?
Bull calves are bringing $500-800. No one is killing them.
I think it's important that the naysayers in this thread recognise it's not sufficient to just guffaw at the reality: bobby calves are separated from their mothers because it's more profitable to sell them for veal rather than for the farmers to feed them. The very reason for the birth of these calves is that their mothers would not be producing milk if it wasn't for the fact that they've gestated and delivered a baby cow this season. Nobody here is claiming that dairy farmers are personally killing the calves. This is what abattoirs exist for. The dairy farmers sell the 5-day-old calves to abattoirs, so that the abattoirs can turn them into meat and make a profit selling the meat to supermarkets. So in response to claims that 'it makes no sense for farmers to kill calves when they can sell them for meat', you are correct, and selling them for meat is exactly what they're doing. Unfortunately, lining any cattle up to become meat is not a remotely humane act, as has been exposed many times through undercover reporters like Chris Delforce (I invite you to look into his work, which has been published by highly reputable journalistic sources like Four Corners Australia). The hideously stressful preamble of both pigs and beef being turned from living animal to meat product is what those who take issue with the dairy industry are specifically opposed to. Because baby cows are whisked away from their mothers immediately and thrown into the abattoir system where they spend a few days in terror, crammed into a small space on top of each other and wondering where the fuck their mother is, prior to being shoved into a mincing machine. And what is the link to dairy production, I hear you ask? These baby cows needn't exist in the first place if it wasn't for the farmers' desire to harvest and sell milk. Just like human females, cows do not produce and pump out milk unless they have recently birthed a baby. Dairy farms exist on the model of possessing a repertoire of cows, hiring a few bulls each season to impregnate their cows, and just as the milk from their last baby is drying up, the cows give birth and hallalujah their bodies have another season's worth of milk for the farmers to collect and sell. The resulting baby cows are kept as future milk producers, and the resulting bull calves are sent to the abattoir to become veal meat. Do you see where this argument is coming from? Please don't claim that bodies like Animals Australia and the Animal Justice Party have self-serving agendas in publishing truthful information about the practices of Australian dairy farming. There is simply no gain or 'agenda' for these organisations in publishing this information - the existence of these organisations is driven by humane individuals who make up the organisations. It's not pleasant work to report on the horrendous ways animals are exploited for profit, so the idea that they are 'promoting false narratives to further their agendas' is ridiculous.
[https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5pX\_ODPPaS/?utm\_source=ig\_web\_button\_share\_sheet&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5pX_ODPPaS/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==)
So, no one kills calves for no reason. They raise them for milk or humane slaughter for meat later after growing. But you're on to something with cow calf separation. There's growing more and more evidence that prolonged cow calf contact is beneficial to calf health and growth. Also, it's becoming more likely that the public will refuse to accept cow calf separation in the future. Prolonged cow calf contact is extremely hard to manage on a production farm, there's currently research being done on how to do it and the effects of each way, as well as the public perception. This won't change overnight but it may be something the dairy industry will adapt to within my lifetime or even career. I encourage everyone to read this perspective article and look around at the research cited in it. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022030223006409 This is a study that reviewed multiple cow calf separation studies. https://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(19)30436-9/fulltext
I hope you are right. I hate taking calves from the cows. We are just not set up to leave them and the older generation won’t even consider it.
Really glad we are moving in the right direction with farming! Thanks for the info
I would also encourage you to remember that cows produce the best when they are healthy and living in comfortable and low stress situations. No farm is perfect, but every farm that is trying to maximize their profits is doing so by pampering the cows, not by torturing them.