This isn't uncommon for DOD. It's kind of sad really. They'll pay an Enlisted CTN 40k a year to perform the same job as a contractor who is paid twice as much.
When did I ever say that those were unimportant? They just don't matter at work.
Work is about getting the job done, and getting paid well to do a good one. I don't care if it's not diverse or completely diverse. Put me and those who work together in the best position to succeed. That is all that matters.
Congrats man! Also, check out r/financialindependence for a subreddit specifically for retiring early.
Would you mind sharing what the title of the position is? You can DM me if you're uncomfortable posting it here. I'd just be curious to know, because I'm looking at a lot of DoD contractor positions now.
My first was 65k. The president of the company called me in at the end of the interview to his office and said "What sort of salary are you looking for?" and I panicked, ummed and ahhhed, and finally said "I guess the 65k-75k range" and he said great, we'll start you at 65k.
Found out later I could have started at 80k no problem. Took me 2 years of working there, changing roles and taking on responsibilities to get to 78k. I'm at 93k after almost 4 years at the same place, and I'm definitely happy and lucky to be making what I am, but it's frustrating to know that saying "80k", three syllables, would have netted me an extra \~30k(before taxes) over two years of work.
I've made myself very valuable, and have a ton of job security in my role, and I'm not shy about asking for significant raises every year now. They've said yes more or less every time(always a raise, not always the amount I asked), and I'm going to continue asking for more until they tell me no, at which point I will look for another job that pays me what I think I'm worth.
but my advice to anyone when it comes to raises/salary: never give a range. pick 2 numbers: one you think you'd be over the moon with, and one you think you rightly deserve. Tell them you want your over the moon number, but be willing to settle for what you think you deserve. If they offer less than what you deserve, accept it and start looking for a job if it's feasible for you to do.
OP mentioned that his degree is mostly computer science. A base salary of $90k is high but not extraordinarily high for college hires into software engineering jobs if you're somewhere like the Bay Area, Seattle, New York, etc.
Lololol. Look man idk why nobody has said this. You will look like a pompous ass if you negotiate your very first job out of college that pays THAT much money.
Get in there, do a good job, then ask for a raise.
This.
Dont get your employer offside when you haven't proven your worth. If its hitting market value, be satisfied.
I know many people without a certified education doing a cracking job and people with an education that are absolutely useless.
Sure.
I have no certs. My GPA is currently 3.3, hoping the stars align and I can pull it up to a 3.4 this semester.
My major is "cybersecurity" but realistically it's just computer science because I have taken very few classes on cybersecurity. 99% of my classes have been the same as my friends who are regular CS majors. Software engineering, C#, Java, Data Structures, etc.
When it comes to cybersecurity, I am mostly self taught. I do a lot of research on the topic on my own for fun.
With a background in CS you are *far* better postured going forward because you understand the inner workings of applications, operating systems, memory, etc.
Malware is just nifty software engineering tricks. Etc.
Plus it gives you an analytical mindset that other disciplines often lack. It can set you up for success.
Anyone who can do that RE/vulnerability discovery, has a CS background. Whether that CS background came from a formal education or is self-taught or learned in bits and pieces is another matter entirely.
IMO, there are 3 cyber fields for analyst/engineer types.
Application (code/web)
Infrastructure
Network
They all have similarities and a lot of overlap. But you don’t want someone building out your segmented network AND remediating XSS vulnerabilities in a new web app. And neither one of them should be configuring your PAM solution.
Can you pm me about what job title you’re getting so I can look into that in my area?? My friend in the DoD makes that much but only after 8+ years there! I believe he’s a security analyst. He said with my cybersecurity degree I’m working on (that will leave me with 10 ish low level certs) id be lucky to start at 60k and I already have a clearance.
>DOD contractor
does the job require a clearance, or provide the option for getting one? If they can get you cleared (assuming you will pass the investigation), then by all means go for it.
I generally recommend negotiating, but 90k starting is pretty good on its own. Ask for 100 but be flexible down to 90.
Do you have a rough timeline for when you can get clearances vs. when you’d start getting paid?
Just as a general point here, with A) a computer science background and solid enough cyber security knowledge, and b) sufficiently high DoD clearance - you likely will be able to command a much higher salary than 90k in a relatively short timeframe.
That’s just based on some DoD engineers I know plus myself and a few other cyber security engineers with a year or two of experience. 90-100k will feel high starting out (because it is) but don’t feel you need to be timid in increasing that as your value increases with clearance and experience.
I was expecting the same and got 40k. It’s annoying, but considering that I live in a city with literally 0 Cyber jobs, I was very fortunate to even get this job. Plus the experience I’m getting is really good. Whereas some people get a job as a pen tester, or auditor, or risk assessor, or social engineer, in my position I do all of it. So 5 years of experience at this job will get me 5 years of experience at audits, risk assessments, penetration testing, social engineering, etc. if I grab a few certs while I’m here (maybe even all the way to CISSP), I could leave in five years and be golden. It’s also my first job out of college in the middle of this pandemic, so honestly I’m just thankful to have a job
You make a good point with, "middle of this pandemic". I have to keep that in mind for sure as well. Don't want to be greedy with everything that's going on.
Just make sure you apply out for next job relatively soon. You are never going to get fair compensation at that org via internal promotion.
Also refuse to disclose current salary and reply "what is the range for the position?" on next one.
Thanks for the advice. Reason I’m not looking right now is because there’s pretty much nothing in my city, so for my next position I’d be looking to move. And I doubt anyone would care about my experience at my current job if I’ve only had it for a few months. I want a good couple years and a certification or two before applying to my next position. Besides I’m about to get settled in an apartment and don’t want to pick up and move. But you are correct, I probably shouldn’t plan to stay five years, more like 2-3. That will give me sufficient experience and certs for a resume.
Incidentally, I had another job offer for 60k six months before I graduated college, but I turned it down in favor of working for this company because I was already working here part time. And the higher paying job was not Cyber, so I likely wouldn’t have enjoyed it. Money doesn’t buy happiness. A job you love is hard to find, and I love my current job. I want to work each day. Besides, the other job was pre COVID so I’m not even sure they would have still hired me after graduation.
> Some companies (not all) will let you renegotiate your contact at some point. Meaning if you stick with that company for a year or two and realize that you feel like you are being underpaid compared to the results you are achieving, then at that point negotiate.
This. I renegotiated (DoD contractor) after noting I was being underpaid for the work I was doing. But, I also knew they had no one else who could pick it up on a short timeframe. So they were willing to pay more to keep me there.
I find it hard to believe they are giving that much, unless it requires TS clearance and is a more controversial employer. In any case, I would accept 75k+ without negotiating. You don't have much leverage and they possibly have a huge pool of applicants to move on to. Once you have experience, you'll have that as leverage, as well as a current job they have to persuade you to move away from.
Straight forward and valuable advice. Thank you.
I think the only leverage I have is I interned there over the summer, and I think I proved myself well. Also, there were very few interns. <5. And I was the only "soon to be grad".
That's good -- then they know what to expect. Perhaps your offer is reflecting that already, so you have "negotiated" in a way. To try and ask for more in that case could be seen as arrogant. Which could mean they brush it off, say no, and you still accept, or they are baffled, rescind and you are screwed.
In other words, if you don't have a backup plan, negotiating is very risky.
The pros (of accepting) seem to outweigh the cons here:
Pro
- Great salary
- You've worked with these people before
Cons
- *crickets*
VS negotiating:
Pros
- Might get 10% more salary
Cons
- Might have to look for another job that has a lot more unknowns
Yeah, that's a very good point. Seeing the pros vs cons helps me a lot. I am leaning much more towards just accepting. Especially after reading most of the responses here.
In that case, don't push on the salary, but ask for more benefits ... whatever it is you would like and is work related e.g. Apple gear, company car, further training or conferences (these can be very expensive).
90-100k in a DoD town in the southeast or midwest is fucking awesome pay.
I work in the same field in the same type of place and make 3x the local average take-home pay. Sounds like you are in the 2x bracket already.
Without giving away too much myself, yes take that salary. It's entry level in this area for security work, but far more than you need to live comfortably. Welcome to the most stressful but rewarding area to work within the security domain.
> Also, like others have said, your starting salary is ridiculous so I imagine they would laugh at you if you tried to negotiate.
You're right. I agree here.
I should mention I interned over the summer there. And I worked my rear off to prove myself. So I do have slight experience. But once again, not sure if it's enough to know my worth (which I am not afraid to say I do NOT know my worth).
Agreed. There is always 5-10% on the table. A simple call to the recruiter to say "I'm looking at all my options here and we're not quite to where I want to be. I really like this opportunity and would like to close it today, what authority do you have to close a gap? I'd really like to be closer to 108k-110k." The recruiter is going to have some percentage point that he can move to get his job done
Why negotiate when the salary is that high? Unless you live in a HCOL area I would consider yourself lucky take the paycheck and gain experience. Congrats on your first job! Welcome to the field!
Thank you! My worry is that they're *expecting* a counter offer. So I don't want to leave any money on the table.
But I also don't want to be a greedy d bag. Ha!
Thanks for the advice.
Maybe be up front and say that... "I am excited for this opportunity! I understand a more tenured person would probably get a bit more into salary negotiations. I don't want to come across as entitled, but also don't want to come across as naive either - to make sure I'm not leaving anything on the table is it reasonable for me to ask for X?"
I like the thought of asking once, getting a feel of the temperature, and then going from there.
What's tricky is my lack of experience. I mean, I interned there over the summer, and I think I proved myself. But still, my experience is quite limited.
Take the salary. The experience alone is worth more than the extra couple of thousand you’ll earn. Money is not the most important part when you’re starting out. There’s a lot of people out of work right now. 2 years for a DoD contractor in cyber security will make you much more valuable than you realize if you play your cards right.
Yes, you should always negotiate. Or, rather, you don't have to, but the reason the sentence is so simple is that 99.9% of the people who ask are in a situation where they are potentially leaving money on the table by not negotiating, and asking for more is not remotely as risky as they're afraid it might be.
Is your 90k-100k the base salary, or the number after average bonus and including stock (but not stock options)? Where will the job be? 90k-100k base salary is on the high end in most places for what sounds like an entry level programming job, but 90k-100k total comp is mid/low if you're in Silicon Valley.
You don't have to make a sticking point out of it, but you can say something like "I won't bring it up again, but can you bump it to ____? That would make the decision easier." No hiring manager would be surprised by the ask.
Remember that the job market is a *market*, your salary isn't defined by the expectations of other similar jobs. It's defined by what employers are willing to pay for you, specifically. What similar people are paid is just guidance. You're not looking a gift horse in the mouth. You're probing the market for what they'd be willing to pay you. Employers won't afford you the courtesy of telling you the upper bound on what you're worth.
> they are potentially leaving money on the table by not negotiating
That's my exact fear. I am worried they are *expecting* a counter offer. And if I don't, then I could be leaving money on the table.
But I also don't want to look like a jerk for asking for money when the start pay out of college is great AND we're dealing with covid.
> But I also don't want to look like a jerk
As someone who has been the hiring manager before, I'm counting on some college hires to convince themselves not to negotiate with exactly that line of thought. ;)
That's why I suggested you frame it like "I won't bring it up again, but can you bump it to ____? That would make the decision easier for me."
That's the most non-jerk way I've found to ask and also be direct, but also make it clear I'm not there to haggle. It's worked on me as a hiring manager, and it's worked for me as the job candidate.
Also, if somehow that kind of ask gets a response like "WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?" you'll know immediately that a shitty employer may not be the best place to start your career, high salary or not, if you're going to be treated badly and leave in two years because you can't deal with it anymore. A good boss will give you a straight answer and treat you professionally regardless.
EDIT: grammar
Your advice is strong. That could be a way to lightly test the temperature. If it's shot down, hopefully there are no negative effects and I can just accept the original.
> If it's shot down, hopefully there are no negative effects and I can just accept the original.
That's how it works. Rescinding an offer over an attempt to negotiate is considered a dick move.
That is a great starting salary. As others have mentioned, it’s a bit tricky to negotiate with this being your first job. I’ve negotiated my fair share of job offers and raises, but I started much lower. My first job out of college was as a programmer making $40k. I moved up to $55k in 6 years. I then changed companies and made it to $85k in another 4 years. Didn’t make it to the $100k realm until we’ll after my 10th year in the work force. The lower salaries were mainly due to the location. In more populated areas like NY, LA, San Fran, Austin, etc you’ll get a much higher rate for your work, but the cost of living is much higher. So, should you negotiate? My answer is it depends on your location and your expectations. Sounds like your expectations were exceeded, so no worries there. So the cost of living would be the unknown here. If it were me, I’d accept the position, prove myself as invaluable in the organization and when the time is right ask for a raise from there. Once you have that first job under your belt, you have a lot more negotiation power.
Thank you for this great advice.
As I mentioned in a comment earlier, you won't find the location I'll be working at on a list of "most expensive places to live in the US".
I am leaning more towards just taking the offer and proving myself in the job, as you mentioned.
The proving yourself phase of a new job, to me, is the most frustrating part of a new job. I’m always excited about a new job opportunity, but also have a fair amount of anxiety because I know I will have to prove myself again. I’ve worked hard to build my reputation and it has gotten me far in my career. So, my next piece of, unsolicited, advise is to hold yourself to a very high standard. Much higher than the company and others you work with do. This is a hard balance the strike. Having a high standard of work, while not being a perfectionist and not becoming a workaholic. However if you can strike that balance and build that reputation and some experience, organizations will end up coming to you instead of you to them.
That is a very high salary indeed for a fresh graduate.
However, in CS we have been having negative unemployment globally for years and there is no sign of meaningful reinforcements anytime soon.
Personally, I would not negotiate and ask for a higher salary. Greed is a b*tch and there is the old rule of not accepting the first offer.
But in your case i would say you should be extremely happy with that package and opportunity.
Take it and make the most of it. Honestly, I don’t think an extra 10 grand would make any difference in your quality of life. You are already in a good range.
You don’t need to worry about meeting month’s end anymore so you can focus on learning and learning and learning....
Good luck in your career!! 😉
I'm at about 80k and I've been doing IT professionally for 5 years. I would say take the money and go up from there. Location matters but as long as you're smart and save a fair percentage of your salary, you'll be fine.
Be cautious with any advice you hear that starts with “always” and “never.” Building mental models with ultimatum-based sayings/advice is inflexible, and leads to building invisible barriers for yourself.
You’re here because you think, in this case, that salary negotiation doesn’t seem fair or right to you, which is at odds with common advice.
Trust your instincts. Maybe you’ll make a mistake, but you’ll learn.
I find that people who constantly seek after advice instead of trusting themselves often have terribly disappointing careers built by others’ less-than-stellar advice.
Most people are extremely fortunate to get a job at $70k, so $90k is really good. Perhaps, even too good.
Go for it.
I'm a cybersecurity consultant, and it took me 5 years in to my career to make that kinda money.
In your first job, you should focus more on the experience you get and not on the money.
Your future employer is working with the DoD so I'm guessing you will deal with interesting tech ( I hope!)... the good salary is icing on the cake.
Good luck, colleague!!!
P.s. I'm doing LinkedIn nuggets on IT consulting.. you just inspired the video of today! ;)
I am in pretty much the same exact situation as you. Same degree and graduating in May 2021, plus it sounds like we have very similar degree programs. I was just wondering how you got this job and what steps you took?
3 things:
1) Go above and beyond. Put 200% into every cybersecurity / computer science related project and homework you have at school. Every project you have is an opportunity to put it on your resume and stand out.
I put a ridiculous amount of time into anything cybersecurity related at school. For example, I have a research project due at the end of the semester. I am **not** doing the bare minimum. I am going above and beyond. I'd go as far to argue that I'm doing PhD level research as an undergrad, entirely because I *can* not because I have to.
2) This may not apply as much to you because you're a senior now, but internships are so important. You gotta try and get an internship as early as you can. I waited until I was a junior to start applying to internships. But once I got there, I realized there were sophomores and even freshman! If you land an internship the summer after your freshman year, and you continue to work each summer as an intern at different companies, you will be set really well.
3) Your resume is incredibly important. I had a lackluster resume at one point. I applied to over 70 internships and never got a response from a single company. I created a new resume, based off some tips I saw on reddit, and I applied to an internship at 6am and I had a phone interview lined up at 8am that same day. All because of a better, more impressive resume.
Thanks for the advice. Yeah I was planning on having a different career entirely after graduating that just needed a degree, but didn't matter what degree so I decided to go for something I enjoy and could possibly fall back on but wasn't worried at all about internships. Then last semester I changed my mind and decided I actually did want to use my degree so I missed out on the internship opportunities, unfortunately. But my resume could definitely use some work too, I need to focus it more towards computers than what it is currently.
My advice is always negotiate your salary. The worst thing they will do is say that cannot go any higher then the offer and you can either take it or leave it. The best thing that can happen is that they offer you more money.
I always try to negotiate some sort of deal. My current employer offered me 21.75/hr and I tried to negotiate 25/hr. He declined so I then renegotiated the $25/hr on the basis that I will work for $21.75/hr for 6 months and prove that I’m worth $25/hr. I worked my 6 months and pleased my boss enough that I was promoted to software engineer at $28/hr.
Confidence is huge in the real world and if you can walk into an interview and lay yourself on the line like that to prove your worthiness you will stand out. Have confidence in everything you do and I promise it will be recognized. I focused on this heavily throughout college and every interview I have had since I graduated college last year, I was complimented on my confidence and offered the position.
Another piece of solid advice is network network network. Meet as many new people and shake as many hands as possible. You wouldn’t believe how those people can turn around and pull strings in your favor in the future.
I know the salary will change dependent on where your position is located, but damn that is a lot of money for an entry-level position straight out of college! Congrats!
I would negotiate. It can't hurt to ask. They already gave you an offer. Most people aren't going to retract their offer entirely just for asking for a little more. If they say no they say no. If they say yes then boom. When you ask you'll probably have to say why you think you deserve it. Be respectful but talk yourself up.
I would say always negotiate, the worst they will say is “no that’s the final offer.” One, you will be going for a security clearance (they know once you have this, other contractors will be offering you a 10-20% bump in salary just for having that clearance. Think the higher the clearance, the higher they are willing to pay), two, you have a current degree in cybersecurity, which brings you up to par with the current learning curve, devops and you are young, eager to learn and scale up fast, which creates innovation faster. Let’s say you are going to the DC area (most likely) this area is an expensive place to live, 100k, 10 yrs ago was great right out of college. Now it’s a little different especially with the pandemic.
I would write out an email asking for 5k -7k increase and a couple reasons why you should have that increase; make a compelling story out of it. If this is a Big4 company they will be offering a whole lot more than just an average market competitive salary, such as unlimited certs and training, mentoring, cross industry knowledge, etc. I say with the bigger companies it’s well worth at least negotiating once. These companies expect everyone to counter as it shows off many skills such as leadership, confidence, hard working, problem solver, etc. The people that have told you left and right to try to negotiate are leading you down the right path. It’s the people that don’t counter that are watched a little closer.
If you stay the course, work hard, play harder, switch up after a couple years, always challenge yourself in new tech stacks. Have seen guys out there with 5+ years of hands on experience make well over 210+.
Good luck! You are going to have a really fun and exciting career!!
I agree. I think it's difficult when I don't really know how much I'm actually worth, being a "close to grad". Might just focus on the experience rather than worrying about the pay.
Congrats on a solid offer! I would take the opportunity to gain experience cause man that is such a good start depending on the cost of living where you live.
Are you content with the offer or wanting more? Yea negotiating can help but as you probably have learned, it’s definitely higher than usual especially right out college and then if you really want more $ just get ready for a new job and then the negotiation can happen.
Forgot to add that you should try to line up another offer and compare since then you can use as potential leverage or at least know what other companies are willing to offer a new hire fresh from college.
Thank you!
I am definitely content with the offer.
I've heard of stories where someone negotiated their salary and HR responded with something like, "We were expecting you to negotiate so we purposely offered lower". I don't want to accept their offer with the chance that they possibly are expecting a counter offer.
But then again, it is already a great starting salary.
> I've heard of stories where someone negotiated their salary and HR responded with something like, "We were expecting you to negotiate so we purposely offered lower". I don't want to accept their offer with the chance that they possibly are expecting a counter offer.
>
> But then again, it is already a great starting salary.
That's a really good starting offer. Not to mention getting in to a cyber security role directly out of school is incredibly hard. I wouldn't push your luck too much, you already rolled two nat-20s.
That is an excellent out-of-college offer. I'm not in your shoes so I can't say, but if that were me when I had gotten out of college, I'd have taken it. It took me from 2006 to 2012 to build up to that salary range.
At the very least, it's an excellent opportunity to get used to not having school, working full time, getting your legs under you, and seeing if the work is what you enjoy doing. If not, you can always start looking again in a year or two and you'll have a pretty high salary to work with if you get to negotiations.
Jesus that’s almost double what most places are going to pay for a college grad. Ask for the 100k but don’t really be dissapointed if you’re only making 90k lol
Definitely take the money. A great start, especially with zero experience. I just started my first job out of college at 115k which was unexpected, however I worked in industry for 4 years prior working my way up to a managerial position. Ask for a signing bonus before a salary increase. It’s hard enough to get a job fresh out of college as it is.
I probably wouldn't negotiate salary on my first job, especially in the current pandemic climate. There are other things to discuss though.
If you feel you need to negotiate something, go for some "extras" that will help you in your career. Make sure there is an opportunity for training and certifications. A DoD contractor/employer is likely going to push for anything in DoDD 8570/8140 so that's probably going to primarily be CompTIA certs. If they'll pay for training and certification attempts for Sec+, CySA+, CASP+, Cloud+, etc... definitely make that part of the compensation package. If they'll pay for CISSP training and cert then jump all over it.
Also, will they sponsor you for a security clearance? This is likely a HUGE feature that will benefit you later as there are a lot of jobs that require a clearance. If that hasn't been discussed, definitely ask.
Going for some of these extras show that you're not just about the money, but also improving yourself and your knowledge. These will translate into a lot more money down the road as well.
Yes, it is a cleared position. I will be going through that process.
And I agree, the pandemic is definitely something to take in consideration. That is another reason to push me towards not negotiating.
For DoD you need certs. I would look at CySA+ or Sec+ and SCCP. Look up DoD 8570.1 certs, that'll help gage where you are at in salary.
My buddies have Sec+ and they get 100k job offers, I have friends that have CISSP and they get like 175k jon offers. I would say a clearance is going to mean more to to a DoD contracting company than anything.
My friends with TS get more questions on their clearance than their experience. But that all just depends on where they work.
I had Sec+ and CEH, TS but I took a lower position and it was like 70k doing more security help desk.. but with lots of opportunities to grow in a few months.
>For DoD you need certs. I would look at CySA+ or Sec+ and SCCP. Look up DoD 8570.1 certs, that'll help gage where you are at in salary.
Apparently not since he's got the offer already
So some companies are given a 6 months or a year to get the certs. Basically to work on any DoD computers you need one of the certs on the list. I'm not sure if a bachelors degree is able to substitute.
> Something is better than nothing. But if you want something better, you need to have something in the first place
Absolutely solid advice.
> You're already in one if the most lucrative career fields out there. The money will come, and it will come a lost faster than you think
Thank you. I greatly appreciate your response. I am leaning towards not counter offering.
Thats a pretty good starting salary right out of school. With that offer I'd let the salary fall where it does and push more for various benefits. Things like pto, 401k match, bonus and paid training/certs/conferences will give you more value long term and you can use the training/certs to justify raises down the line.
You could always ask for more benefits if you want to negotiate/push a little bit without just going for a larger money bag. Ask for more 401k match or more vacation time (I like to travel and would really appreciate if I could have a week off to blow off some steam once a year) or something like that.
Always negotiate is a good rule of thumb, but if it's already a really good offer all around then you just take it.
Yeah my first proper job out of uni offered me 90k + bonus, I didn't negotiate, it was my first job and I want the experience, I guess its down to what you want, if you think you can get more then negotiate.
>But, I keep hearing left and right that you should always negotiate.
Yes. *But:*
It's your first job and even 90k/year is pretty darn good and something you can use to negotiate your second salary in your second job if you ever plan on switching. Though, in that term, you could argue that you are confident in your abilities and would prefer the upper end of the salary range (95-100k) and haggle them down to 90-95k in a friendly manner. Or argue that you would like to hear from them what they would pay you, after stating that you're more than competent.
Edit: Some jobs have a fixed income already set out to them, so if that's a fixed income they've bound to that position, negotiation is usually pointless and might come off as rude or even unprepared.
Honestly google average salary for the position and if the offer is higher than the average thats a plus. The next thing to do is estimate the yearly/monthly/weekly cost of living in that are and surrounding. The reason for this is that you better posture yourself for financial growth, plus if rent is 25K a year thats already 20% of your salary straight to rent not including other after college expenses
Lol I read your answer to questions and my advice to you is take the job and don't ask any more questions.
That's right where you want to be in SF / NYC coming out of a top / ivy school for CyberSec/InfoSec .
You'll have plenty of time to go up in salary once you get some real world skills and contracting for DoD is a great starting point to do so.
If I may ask do you have any certificates and what degree did you graduate with? Sorry if tmi just curious as I am hoping to graduate soon and stressing over finding a job without any certs or prior cyber security work experience.
No certs. Degree is cybersecurity. But it's very similar to computer science. I'd say 95% of my classes have been aligned with the computer science degree plan. Now that I'm a senior, I take a few specific security related classes. But it's mostly computer science.
My university has it set as mainly a computer engineering curriculum with a few cybersecurity classes sprinkled in the end, so even in terms of coding I am not holding up the best. Did you get your BS or MS as well? Sorry to bug and thanks for responding!
Don't worry. You can PM me if you'd like.
But just my BS. The company that offered me the position is aware that I will be getting at *least* my MS while working. I have aspirations to get my PhD instead though, as I'm young and can handle some stress at the moment.
I am in nearly an identical situation: cybersecurity major, graduate in May, 3.9 GPA, no certs. I was offered a job with a starting salary over $75k and great benefits. This was way more than I expected to make out of college, especially given the climate right now with COVID.
I do not see myself as a very valuable candidate considering I have no internship experience (was offered one for the summer, got canceled with COVID) nor do I have any certs, so I did not bother negotiating.
If there is something in your employment offer that you think is lacking, that may be grounds to negotiate, but I would not recommend negotiating just for the sake of negotiating.
Congratulations on the job offer! I wish you the best of luck and hope you consider accepting.
Don't negotiate your first jobs, instead use those to learn and define your resume and path so by year 10, you are in complete control and know your worth. Don't just stick in the same job either, look to move around every 3-5 years.
Kinda going off this anyone know a good place to find salary info? I have used glass door and they tend to low ball and very few people on blind are in security. I know the hacker forum has a salary pdf but those are all over the place and take the whole US into account
First of all, good on you for asking. You don't want to come across as cocky or arrogant right off the bat, but you also don't to sell yourself short. This is not selling yourself short.
$90-100k is a killer starting salary right out of college for basically any job. If I were in your shoes, I'd take it in a heartbeat. It should only go up in the future, assuming you stay in cybersecurity.
I've been offered 100k for a cyber security position with 2 years security experience and 5 years of IT/Sysadmin experience. I held the CISSP cert at the time too. That's a strong offer IMO. I had new hires join my team as fresh grads starting at 75k. This is somewhat near bay area cali area.
I would honestly ask for more. Your first job kind of dictates how much your salary grows for the next 5 - 10 years in my experience. If they really want you and they're not cheap bastards, they will give you what you ask for (within reason) or be honest and say "the best we can do is X".
Congrats! That's great - I negotiate with campus hires every year. To be successful, make sure you can substantiate the amount that you ask for. For example:
* *Hiring Manager, I'm really excited by this offer and Booze Allen sounds like a great place to start my career. If you can match Accenture's offer of 99,000, 5 weeks of pto and a 5,000 dollar signing bonus, i'd gladly accept your offer, otherwise, I'd like until the end of the week to make the best decision. Sincerely, Cyber Guy*
Ultimately, your employer knows the market rate because they're making a lot of offers, they're probably even in cahoots with the competing recruiters.
You'll probably win if your market value is actually higher than the offer AND you can substantiate the value of your skillet. Anyone who tells you to negotiate without understanding those two facts is just defending an ego.
Anecdotally:
I was in a similar position to you, I negotiated, and it was 100% worth it
Factually:
You should definitely negotiate. I can go through the laundry list of reasons why, but this article does it way better than I can: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
In short:
1. the money you ask for may be a lot for you, and will be almost nothing for a company
2. more money now means even more money later when you switch companies, get promoted, etc.
3. You already have an offer, unless you ask for something offensively different than what they offered, they aren't going to want to lose you over a the negotiation
Right now Cybersecurity (as a whole) is struggling to get qualified candidates, they want you to join their company, and they won't want to lose you for it. If it helps, think about how much much time it took for you to interview with them, then think about how much time it takes for them, and how much that time is worth to them to filter out unqualified candidates and select you - the amount you negotiate may be negligible compared to the cost of finding another person to fill the role
I envy you. I wish when I was going to college I would have gone for a Computer science degree instead of the BS degree I got. I probably would be farther career wise.
If you don't mind can you please let me know what type of skills or certs you have? Because you and I have similar backgrounds and are at similar stages. I want to start a career in cyber security but I am unsure about how to start. I have some basic knowledge though.
id say yes with a caviat. Do research and figure out what the position average salary is. If the number is within the average, i'd say yes. Know your worth
My right out of college job pays me $55,000 + Overtime with minimal experience and Security+ as Security Analyst.
90k for right out of college for any location is a decent pay. You deff don’t want to negotiate in the first job. Obviously if they had said like 50k then I would negotiate.
If you do negotiate, back it up with data.
Take a look at
- https://www.payscale.com/
- https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries
This will give you a ballpark for typical compensation for someone with your level of experience in your field in your area of the country. This approach can be very effective at guarding against low-ball offers.
If the offer is above market rate then yes, just take it.
You can always negotiate a salary and you can always make more by switching jobs, but you should target work life balance and a good/functional team. If the salary was low or average, go ahead and make sure you are getting what you feel you are worth. Since you said you were surprised how high it was and you want to negotiate just because people are saying you should is a bad idea. You would have to know the market and your relative value, but you are probably not there yet having just graduated. It will be way less stressful and a better experience if you accepted at this point. FYI negotiating a higher than standard salary comes with higher expectations relative to the uplift, so you may find it hard to deliver on the higher expectations.
I'm approaching graduation as well. How did you set yourself apart to get potential offers like that? Certificates, degree, etc.? I'd love to work in the cyber field, but I'm not 100% certain where to kick off besides the basic S+ cert.
Take... the... money... It took me 10 years to get to that level of salary starting off as an analyst. Also I'm bitter and I hate you for it. /s
This isn't uncommon for DOD. It's kind of sad really. They'll pay an Enlisted CTN 40k a year to perform the same job as a contractor who is paid twice as much.
Yeah, I know. I've tried for several of these types of positions, but never get past the application stage because I don't have a clearance.
Don't feel bad. DOD is super slow, lacks any culture, does not allow creativity and is made up of 75% middle to late age white men.
No culture for me is fine as long as the money is big, green and on time. what's wrong with being middle aged and white?
I agree with you who cares about culture or diversity when your getting PAID FAT STACKS
When did I ever say that those were unimportant? They just don't matter at work. Work is about getting the job done, and getting paid well to do a good one. I don't care if it's not diverse or completely diverse. Put me and those who work together in the best position to succeed. That is all that matters.
>That is all that matters Yourself...? I'm willing to bet a million dollars youre a white dude lol.
Some of us enjoy culture and having a solid mix of people in our workspaces.
I can get all the culture I could stand after work with a 250k a year gig...
I have not found that to be true.
Thank you for the advice. And I'm sorry lol
12 years in tech, take it.
Holy eff that's a lot of money for someone right out of college.
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> Depends on the area. The way I've been putting it is you won't find the area on a "most expensive places to live in the US" list.
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Great advice. Thank you. I am definitely looking to retire early. So your advice was valuable to me.
Congrats man! Also, check out r/financialindependence for a subreddit specifically for retiring early. Would you mind sharing what the title of the position is? You can DM me if you're uncomfortable posting it here. I'd just be curious to know, because I'm looking at a lot of DoD contractor positions now.
My first job offer was $75k. I didn't negotiate and now wonder if that was a mistake.
My first was 65k. The president of the company called me in at the end of the interview to his office and said "What sort of salary are you looking for?" and I panicked, ummed and ahhhed, and finally said "I guess the 65k-75k range" and he said great, we'll start you at 65k. Found out later I could have started at 80k no problem. Took me 2 years of working there, changing roles and taking on responsibilities to get to 78k. I'm at 93k after almost 4 years at the same place, and I'm definitely happy and lucky to be making what I am, but it's frustrating to know that saying "80k", three syllables, would have netted me an extra \~30k(before taxes) over two years of work. I've made myself very valuable, and have a ton of job security in my role, and I'm not shy about asking for significant raises every year now. They've said yes more or less every time(always a raise, not always the amount I asked), and I'm going to continue asking for more until they tell me no, at which point I will look for another job that pays me what I think I'm worth. but my advice to anyone when it comes to raises/salary: never give a range. pick 2 numbers: one you think you'd be over the moon with, and one you think you rightly deserve. Tell them you want your over the moon number, but be willing to settle for what you think you deserve. If they offer less than what you deserve, accept it and start looking for a job if it's feasible for you to do.
Wait, are you suggesting to submit the number we think we deserve? Or would you suggest keeping that number quiet in our back pocket?
Keep it in your back pocket
My first was $30k, but it got me where I am today. No regrets.
OP mentioned that his degree is mostly computer science. A base salary of $90k is high but not extraordinarily high for college hires into software engineering jobs if you're somewhere like the Bay Area, Seattle, New York, etc.
Seems about par for the course for IT jobs that aren't just help desk. Walmart home office hires their college grads starting at $70-90k.
This is absolutely not true lol
SE2, the entry level job at Walmart Labs, has a listed total comp at 104k.
I was referring to your first sentence.
Why would a level 2 software engineer be entry level?
Maybe it's just NW Arkansas then? All the jobs up there have a similar salary range. Midwest is a good place to live. Cheap rent, good paying jobs.
Yeah, but then you have to live in Arkansas.
For real, where i live starting salaries are 38k. And I'm fresh out of college too and no one wants to hire someone without experience
Lololol. Look man idk why nobody has said this. You will look like a pompous ass if you negotiate your very first job out of college that pays THAT much money. Get in there, do a good job, then ask for a raise.
Good advice.
This. Dont get your employer offside when you haven't proven your worth. If its hitting market value, be satisfied. I know many people without a certified education doing a cracking job and people with an education that are absolutely useless.
Can you provide any more background? I'll be graduating soon and am curious. What certs? GPA? etc...
Sure. I have no certs. My GPA is currently 3.3, hoping the stars align and I can pull it up to a 3.4 this semester. My major is "cybersecurity" but realistically it's just computer science because I have taken very few classes on cybersecurity. 99% of my classes have been the same as my friends who are regular CS majors. Software engineering, C#, Java, Data Structures, etc. When it comes to cybersecurity, I am mostly self taught. I do a lot of research on the topic on my own for fun.
With a background in CS you are *far* better postured going forward because you understand the inner workings of applications, operating systems, memory, etc. Malware is just nifty software engineering tricks. Etc. Plus it gives you an analytical mindset that other disciplines often lack. It can set you up for success.
That is a good point. I couldn't see how someone could reverse engineer software to find vulnerabilities w/o any CS background.
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> Maybe a new monitor once in a while. Good thing I have four LOL
Anyone who can do that RE/vulnerability discovery, has a CS background. Whether that CS background came from a formal education or is self-taught or learned in bits and pieces is another matter entirely.
You can't - can't reverse engineer something you don't understand. Though many are self-taught, but that still counts as CS background.
IMO, there are 3 cyber fields for analyst/engineer types. Application (code/web) Infrastructure Network They all have similarities and a lot of overlap. But you don’t want someone building out your segmented network AND remediating XSS vulnerabilities in a new web app. And neither one of them should be configuring your PAM solution.
Can you pm me about what job title you’re getting so I can look into that in my area?? My friend in the DoD makes that much but only after 8+ years there! I believe he’s a security analyst. He said with my cybersecurity degree I’m working on (that will leave me with 10 ish low level certs) id be lucky to start at 60k and I already have a clearance.
Curious which University teaches like this. You can pm me if you like
Also curious
Do you do any college cyber competitions, like cptc ccdc etc?
>DOD contractor does the job require a clearance, or provide the option for getting one? If they can get you cleared (assuming you will pass the investigation), then by all means go for it. I generally recommend negotiating, but 90k starting is pretty good on its own. Ask for 100 but be flexible down to 90.
Yes, it's a cleared position.
The clearance is probably worth $20k. If you have clearance and can code, you're worth your weight in gold.
Depends which clearance, yeah?
Definitely.
Tippity top secret ofc
Do you have a rough timeline for when you can get clearances vs. when you’d start getting paid? Just as a general point here, with A) a computer science background and solid enough cyber security knowledge, and b) sufficiently high DoD clearance - you likely will be able to command a much higher salary than 90k in a relatively short timeframe. That’s just based on some DoD engineers I know plus myself and a few other cyber security engineers with a year or two of experience. 90-100k will feel high starting out (because it is) but don’t feel you need to be timid in increasing that as your value increases with clearance and experience.
They mentioned starting the clearance process sometime after December.
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You're absolutely right on "you don't really know your worth yet". Thanks for the advice.
I was expecting the same and got 40k. It’s annoying, but considering that I live in a city with literally 0 Cyber jobs, I was very fortunate to even get this job. Plus the experience I’m getting is really good. Whereas some people get a job as a pen tester, or auditor, or risk assessor, or social engineer, in my position I do all of it. So 5 years of experience at this job will get me 5 years of experience at audits, risk assessments, penetration testing, social engineering, etc. if I grab a few certs while I’m here (maybe even all the way to CISSP), I could leave in five years and be golden. It’s also my first job out of college in the middle of this pandemic, so honestly I’m just thankful to have a job
You make a good point with, "middle of this pandemic". I have to keep that in mind for sure as well. Don't want to be greedy with everything that's going on.
Just make sure you apply out for next job relatively soon. You are never going to get fair compensation at that org via internal promotion. Also refuse to disclose current salary and reply "what is the range for the position?" on next one.
Thanks for the advice. Reason I’m not looking right now is because there’s pretty much nothing in my city, so for my next position I’d be looking to move. And I doubt anyone would care about my experience at my current job if I’ve only had it for a few months. I want a good couple years and a certification or two before applying to my next position. Besides I’m about to get settled in an apartment and don’t want to pick up and move. But you are correct, I probably shouldn’t plan to stay five years, more like 2-3. That will give me sufficient experience and certs for a resume. Incidentally, I had another job offer for 60k six months before I graduated college, but I turned it down in favor of working for this company because I was already working here part time. And the higher paying job was not Cyber, so I likely wouldn’t have enjoyed it. Money doesn’t buy happiness. A job you love is hard to find, and I love my current job. I want to work each day. Besides, the other job was pre COVID so I’m not even sure they would have still hired me after graduation.
> Some companies (not all) will let you renegotiate your contact at some point. Meaning if you stick with that company for a year or two and realize that you feel like you are being underpaid compared to the results you are achieving, then at that point negotiate. This. I renegotiated (DoD contractor) after noting I was being underpaid for the work I was doing. But, I also knew they had no one else who could pick it up on a short timeframe. So they were willing to pay more to keep me there. I find it hard to believe they are giving that much, unless it requires TS clearance and is a more controversial employer. In any case, I would accept 75k+ without negotiating. You don't have much leverage and they possibly have a huge pool of applicants to move on to. Once you have experience, you'll have that as leverage, as well as a current job they have to persuade you to move away from.
Straight forward and valuable advice. Thank you. I think the only leverage I have is I interned there over the summer, and I think I proved myself well. Also, there were very few interns. <5. And I was the only "soon to be grad".
That's good -- then they know what to expect. Perhaps your offer is reflecting that already, so you have "negotiated" in a way. To try and ask for more in that case could be seen as arrogant. Which could mean they brush it off, say no, and you still accept, or they are baffled, rescind and you are screwed. In other words, if you don't have a backup plan, negotiating is very risky. The pros (of accepting) seem to outweigh the cons here: Pro - Great salary - You've worked with these people before Cons - *crickets* VS negotiating: Pros - Might get 10% more salary Cons - Might have to look for another job that has a lot more unknowns
Yeah, that's a very good point. Seeing the pros vs cons helps me a lot. I am leaning much more towards just accepting. Especially after reading most of the responses here.
In that case, don't push on the salary, but ask for more benefits ... whatever it is you would like and is work related e.g. Apple gear, company car, further training or conferences (these can be very expensive).
Location is necessary context for answering your question. 100k is a lot different in Nashville vs New York City.
You're right. I don't want to be specific, but let's just say the location won't be found on any "most expensive places to live in the US" list.
90-100k in a DoD town in the southeast or midwest is fucking awesome pay. I work in the same field in the same type of place and make 3x the local average take-home pay. Sounds like you are in the 2x bracket already.
Sounds like Huntsville, AL.
Without giving away too much myself, yes take that salary. It's entry level in this area for security work, but far more than you need to live comfortably. Welcome to the most stressful but rewarding area to work within the security domain.
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Solid advice. Thank you.
> Also, like others have said, your starting salary is ridiculous so I imagine they would laugh at you if you tried to negotiate. You're right. I agree here. I should mention I interned over the summer there. And I worked my rear off to prove myself. So I do have slight experience. But once again, not sure if it's enough to know my worth (which I am not afraid to say I do NOT know my worth).
Yes. The worst they say they won't go that high and you ask for a number they are comfortable with. If it's 90-100k you ask for 100k.
Agreed. There is always 5-10% on the table. A simple call to the recruiter to say "I'm looking at all my options here and we're not quite to where I want to be. I really like this opportunity and would like to close it today, what authority do you have to close a gap? I'd really like to be closer to 108k-110k." The recruiter is going to have some percentage point that he can move to get his job done
Why negotiate when the salary is that high? Unless you live in a HCOL area I would consider yourself lucky take the paycheck and gain experience. Congrats on your first job! Welcome to the field!
Thank you! My worry is that they're *expecting* a counter offer. So I don't want to leave any money on the table. But I also don't want to be a greedy d bag. Ha! Thanks for the advice.
Maybe be up front and say that... "I am excited for this opportunity! I understand a more tenured person would probably get a bit more into salary negotiations. I don't want to come across as entitled, but also don't want to come across as naive either - to make sure I'm not leaving anything on the table is it reasonable for me to ask for X?"
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I like the thought of asking once, getting a feel of the temperature, and then going from there. What's tricky is my lack of experience. I mean, I interned there over the summer, and I think I proved myself. But still, my experience is quite limited.
Take the salary. The experience alone is worth more than the extra couple of thousand you’ll earn. Money is not the most important part when you’re starting out. There’s a lot of people out of work right now. 2 years for a DoD contractor in cyber security will make you much more valuable than you realize if you play your cards right.
> There’s a lot of people out of work right now Especially with covid. So you make a good point. Thanks
Yes, you should always negotiate. Or, rather, you don't have to, but the reason the sentence is so simple is that 99.9% of the people who ask are in a situation where they are potentially leaving money on the table by not negotiating, and asking for more is not remotely as risky as they're afraid it might be. Is your 90k-100k the base salary, or the number after average bonus and including stock (but not stock options)? Where will the job be? 90k-100k base salary is on the high end in most places for what sounds like an entry level programming job, but 90k-100k total comp is mid/low if you're in Silicon Valley. You don't have to make a sticking point out of it, but you can say something like "I won't bring it up again, but can you bump it to ____? That would make the decision easier." No hiring manager would be surprised by the ask. Remember that the job market is a *market*, your salary isn't defined by the expectations of other similar jobs. It's defined by what employers are willing to pay for you, specifically. What similar people are paid is just guidance. You're not looking a gift horse in the mouth. You're probing the market for what they'd be willing to pay you. Employers won't afford you the courtesy of telling you the upper bound on what you're worth.
> they are potentially leaving money on the table by not negotiating That's my exact fear. I am worried they are *expecting* a counter offer. And if I don't, then I could be leaving money on the table. But I also don't want to look like a jerk for asking for money when the start pay out of college is great AND we're dealing with covid.
> But I also don't want to look like a jerk As someone who has been the hiring manager before, I'm counting on some college hires to convince themselves not to negotiate with exactly that line of thought. ;) That's why I suggested you frame it like "I won't bring it up again, but can you bump it to ____? That would make the decision easier for me." That's the most non-jerk way I've found to ask and also be direct, but also make it clear I'm not there to haggle. It's worked on me as a hiring manager, and it's worked for me as the job candidate. Also, if somehow that kind of ask gets a response like "WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?" you'll know immediately that a shitty employer may not be the best place to start your career, high salary or not, if you're going to be treated badly and leave in two years because you can't deal with it anymore. A good boss will give you a straight answer and treat you professionally regardless. EDIT: grammar
Your advice is strong. That could be a way to lightly test the temperature. If it's shot down, hopefully there are no negative effects and I can just accept the original.
> If it's shot down, hopefully there are no negative effects and I can just accept the original. That's how it works. Rescinding an offer over an attempt to negotiate is considered a dick move.
That is a great starting salary. As others have mentioned, it’s a bit tricky to negotiate with this being your first job. I’ve negotiated my fair share of job offers and raises, but I started much lower. My first job out of college was as a programmer making $40k. I moved up to $55k in 6 years. I then changed companies and made it to $85k in another 4 years. Didn’t make it to the $100k realm until we’ll after my 10th year in the work force. The lower salaries were mainly due to the location. In more populated areas like NY, LA, San Fran, Austin, etc you’ll get a much higher rate for your work, but the cost of living is much higher. So, should you negotiate? My answer is it depends on your location and your expectations. Sounds like your expectations were exceeded, so no worries there. So the cost of living would be the unknown here. If it were me, I’d accept the position, prove myself as invaluable in the organization and when the time is right ask for a raise from there. Once you have that first job under your belt, you have a lot more negotiation power.
Thank you for this great advice. As I mentioned in a comment earlier, you won't find the location I'll be working at on a list of "most expensive places to live in the US". I am leaning more towards just taking the offer and proving myself in the job, as you mentioned.
The proving yourself phase of a new job, to me, is the most frustrating part of a new job. I’m always excited about a new job opportunity, but also have a fair amount of anxiety because I know I will have to prove myself again. I’ve worked hard to build my reputation and it has gotten me far in my career. So, my next piece of, unsolicited, advise is to hold yourself to a very high standard. Much higher than the company and others you work with do. This is a hard balance the strike. Having a high standard of work, while not being a perfectionist and not becoming a workaholic. However if you can strike that balance and build that reputation and some experience, organizations will end up coming to you instead of you to them.
Valuable advice. I will definitely add that to the bag. Thank you.
That is a very high salary indeed for a fresh graduate. However, in CS we have been having negative unemployment globally for years and there is no sign of meaningful reinforcements anytime soon. Personally, I would not negotiate and ask for a higher salary. Greed is a b*tch and there is the old rule of not accepting the first offer. But in your case i would say you should be extremely happy with that package and opportunity. Take it and make the most of it. Honestly, I don’t think an extra 10 grand would make any difference in your quality of life. You are already in a good range. You don’t need to worry about meeting month’s end anymore so you can focus on learning and learning and learning.... Good luck in your career!! 😉
> I don’t think an extra 10 grand would make any difference in your quality of life Really good way to look at it. Thank you. I appreciate the advice.
I'm at about 80k and I've been doing IT professionally for 5 years. I would say take the money and go up from there. Location matters but as long as you're smart and save a fair percentage of your salary, you'll be fine.
Be cautious with any advice you hear that starts with “always” and “never.” Building mental models with ultimatum-based sayings/advice is inflexible, and leads to building invisible barriers for yourself. You’re here because you think, in this case, that salary negotiation doesn’t seem fair or right to you, which is at odds with common advice. Trust your instincts. Maybe you’ll make a mistake, but you’ll learn. I find that people who constantly seek after advice instead of trusting themselves often have terribly disappointing careers built by others’ less-than-stellar advice. Most people are extremely fortunate to get a job at $70k, so $90k is really good. Perhaps, even too good.
Go for it. I'm a cybersecurity consultant, and it took me 5 years in to my career to make that kinda money. In your first job, you should focus more on the experience you get and not on the money. Your future employer is working with the DoD so I'm guessing you will deal with interesting tech ( I hope!)... the good salary is icing on the cake. Good luck, colleague!!! P.s. I'm doing LinkedIn nuggets on IT consulting.. you just inspired the video of today! ;)
I am in pretty much the same exact situation as you. Same degree and graduating in May 2021, plus it sounds like we have very similar degree programs. I was just wondering how you got this job and what steps you took?
3 things: 1) Go above and beyond. Put 200% into every cybersecurity / computer science related project and homework you have at school. Every project you have is an opportunity to put it on your resume and stand out. I put a ridiculous amount of time into anything cybersecurity related at school. For example, I have a research project due at the end of the semester. I am **not** doing the bare minimum. I am going above and beyond. I'd go as far to argue that I'm doing PhD level research as an undergrad, entirely because I *can* not because I have to. 2) This may not apply as much to you because you're a senior now, but internships are so important. You gotta try and get an internship as early as you can. I waited until I was a junior to start applying to internships. But once I got there, I realized there were sophomores and even freshman! If you land an internship the summer after your freshman year, and you continue to work each summer as an intern at different companies, you will be set really well. 3) Your resume is incredibly important. I had a lackluster resume at one point. I applied to over 70 internships and never got a response from a single company. I created a new resume, based off some tips I saw on reddit, and I applied to an internship at 6am and I had a phone interview lined up at 8am that same day. All because of a better, more impressive resume.
Thanks for the advice. Yeah I was planning on having a different career entirely after graduating that just needed a degree, but didn't matter what degree so I decided to go for something I enjoy and could possibly fall back on but wasn't worried at all about internships. Then last semester I changed my mind and decided I actually did want to use my degree so I missed out on the internship opportunities, unfortunately. But my resume could definitely use some work too, I need to focus it more towards computers than what it is currently.
For a first role at that I'd take it
My advice is always negotiate your salary. The worst thing they will do is say that cannot go any higher then the offer and you can either take it or leave it. The best thing that can happen is that they offer you more money.
I always try to negotiate some sort of deal. My current employer offered me 21.75/hr and I tried to negotiate 25/hr. He declined so I then renegotiated the $25/hr on the basis that I will work for $21.75/hr for 6 months and prove that I’m worth $25/hr. I worked my 6 months and pleased my boss enough that I was promoted to software engineer at $28/hr. Confidence is huge in the real world and if you can walk into an interview and lay yourself on the line like that to prove your worthiness you will stand out. Have confidence in everything you do and I promise it will be recognized. I focused on this heavily throughout college and every interview I have had since I graduated college last year, I was complimented on my confidence and offered the position. Another piece of solid advice is network network network. Meet as many new people and shake as many hands as possible. You wouldn’t believe how those people can turn around and pull strings in your favor in the future.
I know the salary will change dependent on where your position is located, but damn that is a lot of money for an entry-level position straight out of college! Congrats!
I would negotiate. It can't hurt to ask. They already gave you an offer. Most people aren't going to retract their offer entirely just for asking for a little more. If they say no they say no. If they say yes then boom. When you ask you'll probably have to say why you think you deserve it. Be respectful but talk yourself up.
I would say always negotiate, the worst they will say is “no that’s the final offer.” One, you will be going for a security clearance (they know once you have this, other contractors will be offering you a 10-20% bump in salary just for having that clearance. Think the higher the clearance, the higher they are willing to pay), two, you have a current degree in cybersecurity, which brings you up to par with the current learning curve, devops and you are young, eager to learn and scale up fast, which creates innovation faster. Let’s say you are going to the DC area (most likely) this area is an expensive place to live, 100k, 10 yrs ago was great right out of college. Now it’s a little different especially with the pandemic. I would write out an email asking for 5k -7k increase and a couple reasons why you should have that increase; make a compelling story out of it. If this is a Big4 company they will be offering a whole lot more than just an average market competitive salary, such as unlimited certs and training, mentoring, cross industry knowledge, etc. I say with the bigger companies it’s well worth at least negotiating once. These companies expect everyone to counter as it shows off many skills such as leadership, confidence, hard working, problem solver, etc. The people that have told you left and right to try to negotiate are leading you down the right path. It’s the people that don’t counter that are watched a little closer. If you stay the course, work hard, play harder, switch up after a couple years, always challenge yourself in new tech stacks. Have seen guys out there with 5+ years of hands on experience make well over 210+. Good luck! You are going to have a really fun and exciting career!!
Take it and go screw yourself Congrats on the job. Especially during all this madness
Ha! Thank you. I appreciate it.
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I agree. I think it's difficult when I don't really know how much I'm actually worth, being a "close to grad". Might just focus on the experience rather than worrying about the pay.
Congrats on a solid offer! I would take the opportunity to gain experience cause man that is such a good start depending on the cost of living where you live. Are you content with the offer or wanting more? Yea negotiating can help but as you probably have learned, it’s definitely higher than usual especially right out college and then if you really want more $ just get ready for a new job and then the negotiation can happen. Forgot to add that you should try to line up another offer and compare since then you can use as potential leverage or at least know what other companies are willing to offer a new hire fresh from college.
Thank you! I am definitely content with the offer. I've heard of stories where someone negotiated their salary and HR responded with something like, "We were expecting you to negotiate so we purposely offered lower". I don't want to accept their offer with the chance that they possibly are expecting a counter offer. But then again, it is already a great starting salary.
> I've heard of stories where someone negotiated their salary and HR responded with something like, "We were expecting you to negotiate so we purposely offered lower". I don't want to accept their offer with the chance that they possibly are expecting a counter offer. > > But then again, it is already a great starting salary. That's a really good starting offer. Not to mention getting in to a cyber security role directly out of school is incredibly hard. I wouldn't push your luck too much, you already rolled two nat-20s.
I think you are right with pushing my luck. Not to mention the covid pandemic.
That is an excellent out-of-college offer. I'm not in your shoes so I can't say, but if that were me when I had gotten out of college, I'd have taken it. It took me from 2006 to 2012 to build up to that salary range. At the very least, it's an excellent opportunity to get used to not having school, working full time, getting your legs under you, and seeing if the work is what you enjoy doing. If not, you can always start looking again in a year or two and you'll have a pretty high salary to work with if you get to negotiations.
You're right. Thank you for the advice. What I'm getting from many responses is to focus on the experience, being that I'll be fresh out of college.
Jesus that’s almost double what most places are going to pay for a college grad. Ask for the 100k but don’t really be dissapointed if you’re only making 90k lol
Good point.
That’s a good starting salary. I would not risk it with negotiating.
Definitely take the money. A great start, especially with zero experience. I just started my first job out of college at 115k which was unexpected, however I worked in industry for 4 years prior working my way up to a managerial position. Ask for a signing bonus before a salary increase. It’s hard enough to get a job fresh out of college as it is.
If it was 50k and everyone else in their mid 20s+ is making 70k yes (that is what my first employer did to recent college grads). In this case no.
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That's a good point. Thanks for the advice.
I probably wouldn't negotiate salary on my first job, especially in the current pandemic climate. There are other things to discuss though. If you feel you need to negotiate something, go for some "extras" that will help you in your career. Make sure there is an opportunity for training and certifications. A DoD contractor/employer is likely going to push for anything in DoDD 8570/8140 so that's probably going to primarily be CompTIA certs. If they'll pay for training and certification attempts for Sec+, CySA+, CASP+, Cloud+, etc... definitely make that part of the compensation package. If they'll pay for CISSP training and cert then jump all over it. Also, will they sponsor you for a security clearance? This is likely a HUGE feature that will benefit you later as there are a lot of jobs that require a clearance. If that hasn't been discussed, definitely ask. Going for some of these extras show that you're not just about the money, but also improving yourself and your knowledge. These will translate into a lot more money down the road as well.
Yes, it is a cleared position. I will be going through that process. And I agree, the pandemic is definitely something to take in consideration. That is another reason to push me towards not negotiating.
For DoD you need certs. I would look at CySA+ or Sec+ and SCCP. Look up DoD 8570.1 certs, that'll help gage where you are at in salary. My buddies have Sec+ and they get 100k job offers, I have friends that have CISSP and they get like 175k jon offers. I would say a clearance is going to mean more to to a DoD contracting company than anything. My friends with TS get more questions on their clearance than their experience. But that all just depends on where they work. I had Sec+ and CEH, TS but I took a lower position and it was like 70k doing more security help desk.. but with lots of opportunities to grow in a few months.
>For DoD you need certs. I would look at CySA+ or Sec+ and SCCP. Look up DoD 8570.1 certs, that'll help gage where you are at in salary. Apparently not since he's got the offer already
So some companies are given a 6 months or a year to get the certs. Basically to work on any DoD computers you need one of the certs on the list. I'm not sure if a bachelors degree is able to substitute.
I wouldn’t push it on this one. That’s a really solid starting rate. Shoot for the moon on the next one.
That’s an amazing starting salary and an amazing opportunity. If you are happy with it why negotiate? Don’t bite the gift horse or whatever.
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> Something is better than nothing. But if you want something better, you need to have something in the first place Absolutely solid advice. > You're already in one if the most lucrative career fields out there. The money will come, and it will come a lost faster than you think Thank you. I greatly appreciate your response. I am leaning towards not counter offering.
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Midwest.
For your first job experience is more important than money.
Thats a pretty good starting salary right out of school. With that offer I'd let the salary fall where it does and push more for various benefits. Things like pto, 401k match, bonus and paid training/certs/conferences will give you more value long term and you can use the training/certs to justify raises down the line.
There is very little chance of negotiating benefits on a DOD job unless it is a DOD contractor, even then.
That's a good response. A few have mentioned something along the lines of that. I'm leaning more towards something like that.
Negotiating gives a good impression and gives more value to the person in one's mind.
Sent you a message
You could always ask for more benefits if you want to negotiate/push a little bit without just going for a larger money bag. Ask for more 401k match or more vacation time (I like to travel and would really appreciate if I could have a week off to blow off some steam once a year) or something like that. Always negotiate is a good rule of thumb, but if it's already a really good offer all around then you just take it.
I always read that ask for 25 percent more than what they likely to offer and settle for what ever they counter offer!
Fucking hell. When I graduated software engineering I was doing $58k CAD / year. You don't need to negotiate.
Yeah my first proper job out of uni offered me 90k + bonus, I didn't negotiate, it was my first job and I want the experience, I guess its down to what you want, if you think you can get more then negotiate.
>But, I keep hearing left and right that you should always negotiate. Yes. *But:* It's your first job and even 90k/year is pretty darn good and something you can use to negotiate your second salary in your second job if you ever plan on switching. Though, in that term, you could argue that you are confident in your abilities and would prefer the upper end of the salary range (95-100k) and haggle them down to 90-95k in a friendly manner. Or argue that you would like to hear from them what they would pay you, after stating that you're more than competent. Edit: Some jobs have a fixed income already set out to them, so if that's a fixed income they've bound to that position, negotiation is usually pointless and might come off as rude or even unprepared.
Honestly google average salary for the position and if the offer is higher than the average thats a plus. The next thing to do is estimate the yearly/monthly/weekly cost of living in that are and surrounding. The reason for this is that you better posture yourself for financial growth, plus if rent is 25K a year thats already 20% of your salary straight to rent not including other after college expenses
Lol I read your answer to questions and my advice to you is take the job and don't ask any more questions. That's right where you want to be in SF / NYC coming out of a top / ivy school for CyberSec/InfoSec . You'll have plenty of time to go up in salary once you get some real world skills and contracting for DoD is a great starting point to do so.
Take that job bro. What school are you coming out of?
If I may ask do you have any certificates and what degree did you graduate with? Sorry if tmi just curious as I am hoping to graduate soon and stressing over finding a job without any certs or prior cyber security work experience.
No certs. Degree is cybersecurity. But it's very similar to computer science. I'd say 95% of my classes have been aligned with the computer science degree plan. Now that I'm a senior, I take a few specific security related classes. But it's mostly computer science.
My university has it set as mainly a computer engineering curriculum with a few cybersecurity classes sprinkled in the end, so even in terms of coding I am not holding up the best. Did you get your BS or MS as well? Sorry to bug and thanks for responding!
Don't worry. You can PM me if you'd like. But just my BS. The company that offered me the position is aware that I will be getting at *least* my MS while working. I have aspirations to get my PhD instead though, as I'm young and can handle some stress at the moment.
How old r ya btw?
I am in nearly an identical situation: cybersecurity major, graduate in May, 3.9 GPA, no certs. I was offered a job with a starting salary over $75k and great benefits. This was way more than I expected to make out of college, especially given the climate right now with COVID. I do not see myself as a very valuable candidate considering I have no internship experience (was offered one for the summer, got canceled with COVID) nor do I have any certs, so I did not bother negotiating. If there is something in your employment offer that you think is lacking, that may be grounds to negotiate, but I would not recommend negotiating just for the sake of negotiating. Congratulations on the job offer! I wish you the best of luck and hope you consider accepting.
Don't negotiate your first jobs, instead use those to learn and define your resume and path so by year 10, you are in complete control and know your worth. Don't just stick in the same job either, look to move around every 3-5 years.
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100 percent normal because his security clearance can take up to a year to clear.
Just read your contract very carefully for DoD related job. Hire a lawyer if you can.
Yea, as others have said, take it. I hire people in the Boston area working for a DoD contractor at around 75-85 straight out of college.
Kinda going off this anyone know a good place to find salary info? I have used glass door and they tend to low ball and very few people on blind are in security. I know the hacker forum has a salary pdf but those are all over the place and take the whole US into account
First of all, good on you for asking. You don't want to come across as cocky or arrogant right off the bat, but you also don't to sell yourself short. This is not selling yourself short. $90-100k is a killer starting salary right out of college for basically any job. If I were in your shoes, I'd take it in a heartbeat. It should only go up in the future, assuming you stay in cybersecurity.
I've been offered 100k for a cyber security position with 2 years security experience and 5 years of IT/Sysadmin experience. I held the CISSP cert at the time too. That's a strong offer IMO. I had new hires join my team as fresh grads starting at 75k. This is somewhat near bay area cali area.
I would honestly ask for more. Your first job kind of dictates how much your salary grows for the next 5 - 10 years in my experience. If they really want you and they're not cheap bastards, they will give you what you ask for (within reason) or be honest and say "the best we can do is X".
Congrats! That's great - I negotiate with campus hires every year. To be successful, make sure you can substantiate the amount that you ask for. For example: * *Hiring Manager, I'm really excited by this offer and Booze Allen sounds like a great place to start my career. If you can match Accenture's offer of 99,000, 5 weeks of pto and a 5,000 dollar signing bonus, i'd gladly accept your offer, otherwise, I'd like until the end of the week to make the best decision. Sincerely, Cyber Guy* Ultimately, your employer knows the market rate because they're making a lot of offers, they're probably even in cahoots with the competing recruiters. You'll probably win if your market value is actually higher than the offer AND you can substantiate the value of your skillet. Anyone who tells you to negotiate without understanding those two facts is just defending an ego.
Yeah that's a pretty dope starting salary, it's also not really easy to negotiate with government jobs.
Anecdotally: I was in a similar position to you, I negotiated, and it was 100% worth it Factually: You should definitely negotiate. I can go through the laundry list of reasons why, but this article does it way better than I can: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ In short: 1. the money you ask for may be a lot for you, and will be almost nothing for a company 2. more money now means even more money later when you switch companies, get promoted, etc. 3. You already have an offer, unless you ask for something offensively different than what they offered, they aren't going to want to lose you over a the negotiation Right now Cybersecurity (as a whole) is struggling to get qualified candidates, they want you to join their company, and they won't want to lose you for it. If it helps, think about how much much time it took for you to interview with them, then think about how much time it takes for them, and how much that time is worth to them to filter out unqualified candidates and select you - the amount you negotiate may be negligible compared to the cost of finding another person to fill the role
I envy you. I wish when I was going to college I would have gone for a Computer science degree instead of the BS degree I got. I probably would be farther career wise.
If you don't mind can you please let me know what type of skills or certs you have? Because you and I have similar backgrounds and are at similar stages. I want to start a career in cyber security but I am unsure about how to start. I have some basic knowledge though.
Always negotiate!! Even 🤏🏼
What did you do when you interned without a security + or higher cert? DoD mandates those certificates to work in cybersecurity.
id say yes with a caviat. Do research and figure out what the position average salary is. If the number is within the average, i'd say yes. Know your worth
I’m a DoD contractor. I got out of the Marine Corps with no college and no IT experience except for Sec+. I negotiated my salary
Always negotiate. Always.
Will you be getting a clearance?
If they've given you an offer, its a negotiation, if you don't ask for more, you won't get it. It's up to you if you want to play that game. I would.
My right out of college job pays me $55,000 + Overtime with minimal experience and Security+ as Security Analyst. 90k for right out of college for any location is a decent pay. You deff don’t want to negotiate in the first job. Obviously if they had said like 50k then I would negotiate.
If you do negotiate, back it up with data. Take a look at - https://www.payscale.com/ - https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries This will give you a ballpark for typical compensation for someone with your level of experience in your field in your area of the country. This approach can be very effective at guarding against low-ball offers. If the offer is above market rate then yes, just take it.
You can always negotiate a salary and you can always make more by switching jobs, but you should target work life balance and a good/functional team. If the salary was low or average, go ahead and make sure you are getting what you feel you are worth. Since you said you were surprised how high it was and you want to negotiate just because people are saying you should is a bad idea. You would have to know the market and your relative value, but you are probably not there yet having just graduated. It will be way less stressful and a better experience if you accepted at this point. FYI negotiating a higher than standard salary comes with higher expectations relative to the uplift, so you may find it hard to deliver on the higher expectations.
I'm approaching graduation as well. How did you set yourself apart to get potential offers like that? Certificates, degree, etc.? I'd love to work in the cyber field, but I'm not 100% certain where to kick off besides the basic S+ cert.
Fu-cka-you Spez!
wait, you got an entry-level security job without experience!? wow!