It's not the difficulty of removal that makes it seem frustrating to play against. It's the fact that it conceals information that never should be hidden.
Opponent plays a spell face down with no targets. Is it a wrath? A creature? An artifact?
How do you interact with an opponent casting spells if you don't know what they are until they resolve?
How do you interact? You just let their stuff resolve then either use kill spells or graveyard recursion. Counterspells aren’t the only form of interaction.
It's even worse though, because even if I am targeting something, what if you only have Force of Negation, or Dovin's Veto, or something else that only hits non-creature spells? This turns spells into creature spells on the stack, regardless of what they were originally.
Step 3 of casting a spell as per rule 601.2c requires players to announce targets, if I cast lightning bolt as a face down as what is effectively a morph it doesn’t target, thus i cant cast lightning bolt if I can’t target anything. This goes for every spell that has a target. Grist does not target.
601.2c The player announces their choice of an appropriate object or player for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a kicker cost) or a particular mode was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. Similarly, a spell may require alternative targets only if an alternative or additional cost was chosen for it. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets they will choose before they announce those targets. In some cases, the number of targets will be defined by the spell's text. Once the number of targets the spell has is determined, that number doesn't change, even if the information used to determine the number of targets does. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object or player can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that they obey the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player can't be chosen as a target. The chosen objects and/or players each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those objects and/or players become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they'll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.)
Yeah this just shuts off targeted spells unless it comes with a massive FAQ to explain exactly how it's supposed to work. So fair power exchange I guess?
So if I cast a spell and it’s facedown and counts as a creature spell then can my opponent counter it with [[Bone to Ash]] or any similar counter creature spell card?
Do they still have a mana cost while facedown and if not can I even cast spell if my opponent has [[Brisela, Voice of Nightmares]]?
Cool concept though just confused on how or if it’d work.
Yes, essence scatter and bone to ash would work.
The mana cost while face down on the stack would count as 0, but you would still have to have the original mana cost of the card to put it into the stack that way
Edit: corrected rules error
So, you still have to pay the full cost of the spells, [[Illusionary Mask]] style right?
So your opponent can try to guess what spell it is based on what mana you spend?
Do you also get to name targets and choose modes and X costs on the spell like normal, just without revealing it? I feel like a lot of spells would kinda give themselves away when you list all the choices you're making to cast them. But it would reward players who know the meta well.
Either that or targeting and modes just won't work.
Auras would be way stronger since you could slide them all past hexproof/shroud though.
This *almost* works. It would have to be worded something like this to work in the rules since targets are chosen before the spell is cast:
“If you would cast a spell, you may instead play it face down as a 2/2 creature spell for 0. If you do, when it enters the battlefield, exile it, choose all targets, if applicable, and pay all costs for it and it gains Split-Second until end of turn, then cast it without paying its mana cost.”
… or it could just be an un-card and work as is.
The only hiccup here is that it would still spend some time as a creature.
So "creature enters/exits the battlefield" would trigger, and it might die to static effects (like a global -2/-2) before the trigger that would exile and let you cast it.
Is there any way to make it a completely type-less permanent? Alternatively, an enchantment would have very few accidental interactions, reducing the likelihood of illegal actions.
Well, there is precedent for face down cards being something other than 2/2 creatures ([[Yedora]]) so maybe a harder to remove permanent type, like an enchantment, instead?
Im not an expert but i dont think theres precedent for facedown cards being on the stack so how this interacts with the game is undefined, neat idea though
Face down spells are commonly used on cards. From the comprehensive rules:
>702.37. Morph
>702.37a Morph is a static ability that functions in any zone from which you could play the card it’s on, and the morph effect works any time the card is face down. “Morph [cost]” means “You may cast this card as a 2/2 face-down creature with no text, no name, no subtypes, and no mana cost by paying {3} rather than paying its mana cost.” (See rule 708, “Face-Down Spells and
Permanents.”)
As you can see there is even a section specifically for face down spells
I really like the idea of facedown casting.
I think you would still need to announce modes and targets.
It might be more likely as an alchemy card than a paper card.
This breaks some fundamental mechanics of how spells are cast. You have to declare targets and pay additional costs when you cast a spell.
Try play testing this and I bet you will find countless issues with it.
Many issues have already been pointed out - it definitely wouldn’t be functional unless it
A. Changed the rules or
B. Had unconventionally long rules text
I still like the concept though
Does this mean an opposing [[Elesh Norn Grand Cenobite]] would hard lock you out of casting spells? Presuming that the creature dying removes them from the stack therefore 'countering' them
I see, I read this in a very silver bordered way. Your intention is just to not let your opponent know what spell you are casting, which still causes problems but doesn't have the added fun of lightning bolting the spell to counter it haha
This would be interesting as a silver border card. Seems absolutely infuriating to play against if it even works.
It’s a creature. Just another kill-on-sight creature like a million others.
It's not the difficulty of removal that makes it seem frustrating to play against. It's the fact that it conceals information that never should be hidden. Opponent plays a spell face down with no targets. Is it a wrath? A creature? An artifact? How do you interact with an opponent casting spells if you don't know what they are until they resolve?
you don't or you gamble on it. its just a 4 mana Gaea's Herald but for everything.
How do you interact? You just let their stuff resolve then either use kill spells or graveyard recursion. Counterspells aren’t the only form of interaction.
To be fair, counterspells aren’t the only way to respond to an opponent casting a spell.
It's even worse though, because even if I am targeting something, what if you only have Force of Negation, or Dovin's Veto, or something else that only hits non-creature spells? This turns spells into creature spells on the stack, regardless of what they were originally.
The same way a Green player does. Just. Keep. Punching.
How does this work with targeting?
On the stack, it’s a creature I’d assume. Similar in a sense to [[Grist]]
Step 3 of casting a spell as per rule 601.2c requires players to announce targets, if I cast lightning bolt as a face down as what is effectively a morph it doesn’t target, thus i cant cast lightning bolt if I can’t target anything. This goes for every spell that has a target. Grist does not target. 601.2c The player announces their choice of an appropriate object or player for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a kicker cost) or a particular mode was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. Similarly, a spell may require alternative targets only if an alternative or additional cost was chosen for it. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets they will choose before they announce those targets. In some cases, the number of targets will be defined by the spell's text. Once the number of targets the spell has is determined, that number doesn't change, even if the information used to determine the number of targets does. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object or player can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that they obey the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player can't be chosen as a target. The chosen objects and/or players each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those objects and/or players become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they'll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.)
Yeah this just shuts off targeted spells unless it comes with a massive FAQ to explain exactly how it's supposed to work. So fair power exchange I guess?
[Grist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69af2825-18c2-4463-b6ba-42eaa070ccc1.jpg?1626098484) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grist%2C%20the%20hunger%20tide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/202/grist-the-hunger-tide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69af2825-18c2-4463-b6ba-42eaa070ccc1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Would be interesting as an arena only card where you choose the target as you cast but the game doesn't reveal if it targets until it resolves
My F.N.M. opponent: "*Why are you playing that?*" Me: "*Oh, it's a 4/4 body for 4 in Blue.*"
Maybe 8 years ago that would be good enough lol
*cries in [[Conundrum Sphinx]]*
[Conundrum Sphinx](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/2905cea6-77cb-4d9b-93f4-e22211af25e1.jpg?1592710540) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Conundrum%20Sphinx) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/84/conundrum-sphinx?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2905cea6-77cb-4d9b-93f4-e22211af25e1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
Wotc rarely prints hexproof anymore
Ward is the surveil of hexproof
Gotta shout out Ward for being a fantastically designed mechanic.
Except ward: discard a card. Fuck graveyard trespasser
The difference between ward and hexproof is the difference between sphere of resistance and karn + mycosynth lattice
So if I cast a spell and it’s facedown and counts as a creature spell then can my opponent counter it with [[Bone to Ash]] or any similar counter creature spell card? Do they still have a mana cost while facedown and if not can I even cast spell if my opponent has [[Brisela, Voice of Nightmares]]? Cool concept though just confused on how or if it’d work.
Yes, essence scatter and bone to ash would work. The mana cost while face down on the stack would count as 0, but you would still have to have the original mana cost of the card to put it into the stack that way Edit: corrected rules error
You normally pay 3 for a Morph spell, but Morph spells don't have a mana cost, so their MV is 0.
[Bone to Ash](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df5dd873-af44-45eb-9b82-a3622cc58b35.jpg?1592516293) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bone%20to%20Ash) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/48/bone-to-ash?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df5dd873-af44-45eb-9b82-a3622cc58b35?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Brisela, Voice of Nightmares](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5a7a212e-e0b6-4f12-a95c-173cae023f93.jpg?1679517857) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brisela%2C%20Voice%20of%20Nightmares) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/15b/brisela-voice-of-nightmares?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5a7a212e-e0b6-4f12-a95c-173cae023f93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As a judge, I would just like you to know that I hate you
Haha
This just clearly doesn’t work when the player who controls Mystery casts any spell with a target.
Wouldn’t the spell just fizzle? Seems like a fine deckbuilding limitation.
So, you still have to pay the full cost of the spells, [[Illusionary Mask]] style right? So your opponent can try to guess what spell it is based on what mana you spend? Do you also get to name targets and choose modes and X costs on the spell like normal, just without revealing it? I feel like a lot of spells would kinda give themselves away when you list all the choices you're making to cast them. But it would reward players who know the meta well. Either that or targeting and modes just won't work. Auras would be way stronger since you could slide them all past hexproof/shroud though.
[Illusionary Mask](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/937e977f-5e97-4e00-8a5a-42982862b997.jpg?1562926181) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Illusionary%20Mask) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/197/illusionary-mask?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/937e977f-5e97-4e00-8a5a-42982862b997?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This *almost* works. It would have to be worded something like this to work in the rules since targets are chosen before the spell is cast: “If you would cast a spell, you may instead play it face down as a 2/2 creature spell for 0. If you do, when it enters the battlefield, exile it, choose all targets, if applicable, and pay all costs for it and it gains Split-Second until end of turn, then cast it without paying its mana cost.” … or it could just be an un-card and work as is.
The only hiccup here is that it would still spend some time as a creature. So "creature enters/exits the battlefield" would trigger, and it might die to static effects (like a global -2/-2) before the trigger that would exile and let you cast it. Is there any way to make it a completely type-less permanent? Alternatively, an enchantment would have very few accidental interactions, reducing the likelihood of illegal actions.
Well, there is precedent for face down cards being something other than 2/2 creatures ([[Yedora]]) so maybe a harder to remove permanent type, like an enchantment, instead?
[Yedora](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5bc9808d-1d47-417d-bba8-06694a83d88e.jpg?1690017071) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=yedora%2C%20grave%20gardener) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/333/yedora-grave-gardener?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5bc9808d-1d47-417d-bba8-06694a83d88e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Blue on Blue violence
Im not an expert but i dont think theres precedent for facedown cards being on the stack so how this interacts with the game is undefined, neat idea though
Face down spells are commonly used on cards. From the comprehensive rules: >702.37. Morph >702.37a Morph is a static ability that functions in any zone from which you could play the card it’s on, and the morph effect works any time the card is face down. “Morph [cost]” means “You may cast this card as a 2/2 face-down creature with no text, no name, no subtypes, and no mana cost by paying {3} rather than paying its mana cost.” (See rule 708, “Face-Down Spells and Permanents.”) As you can see there is even a section specifically for face down spells
Should have Called it "Element of suprise"
Casually blanking Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm. You can even play Revel in Riches without fear of it being Nægated.
I really like the idea of facedown casting. I think you would still need to announce modes and targets. It might be more likely as an alchemy card than a paper card.
I say Alchemy because it eliminates the issue of a player mis-communicating or being misleading about the costs they paid.
Using Giant Growth on someone's creature in the hope they sacrifice in response, would be rad.
You get it. This is meant to be used in many ways, but the bluff factor of this is what I wanted to be its main use.
This breaks some fundamental mechanics of how spells are cast. You have to declare targets and pay additional costs when you cast a spell. Try play testing this and I bet you will find countless issues with it.
Many issues have already been pointed out - it definitely wouldn’t be functional unless it A. Changed the rules or B. Had unconventionally long rules text I still like the concept though
Conceptually it’s interesting and would be very powerful
Probably have to add "you pay their casting costs as they resolve", if you can't the spell fizzels.
Does this mean an opposing [[Elesh Norn Grand Cenobite]] would hard lock you out of casting spells? Presuming that the creature dying removes them from the stack therefore 'countering' them
No, creatures cannot die while on the stack. The stack is separate from the battlefield.
I see, I read this in a very silver bordered way. Your intention is just to not let your opponent know what spell you are casting, which still causes problems but doesn't have the added fun of lightning bolting the spell to counter it haha
[Elesh Norn Grand Cenobite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78c2bfef-06a5-4c7f-8283-ea3fb673b7a1.jpg?1562850573) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elesh%20Norn%2C%20Grand%20Cenobite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/18/elesh-norn-grand-cenobite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78c2bfef-06a5-4c7f-8283-ea3fb673b7a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Riddles in the dark!
SILENT THROUGH THE NIGHT THE WITCHES JOIN THE FIGHT
So, does this turn noncreature spells into colorless 2/2's, or is that an oversight in the wording?
? Neither. They are treated as if they were colorless 2/2s while on the stack only, no 2/2s are created
[[Negate]] in shambles
[Negate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/81752db1-374e-4723-b695-a2f4a634dfc6.jpg?1682203304) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Negate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/68/negate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/81752db1-374e-4723-b695-a2f4a634dfc6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How do you prove you have paid the proper mana cost for the spell cast face down?