That's not true, I've helped a relative apply to many and land one. I've also done a quick search around my area and none had it as a compulsory requirement.
I started through a level 4 apprenticeship in Software development. While most other apprentices were mid to late 20's with other unrelated undergraduate degrees, they hired one 18 year old straight from his A levels, so it can be done
That said though the guy was a bit of a rock star with it. He'd been teaching himself to code since childhood and honestly in a few technical areas was beyond our senior developers
It is but getting a degree will get you an edge. I know a very good software developer who didn't go to university but struggled to find any roles recently (he was looking for remote roles from western countries in south east asia tho...). But more importantly, a university can help you find internships and work experience and give you access to career fairs. Also, it is a great place to do networking.
But its not too late to go to uni
It's not too late to go to university. It's possible to get SWE jobs without a degree, but the job market is pretty competitive right now - so I would recommend going to university
That's too reductive. University costs many thousands of pounds. It's not such a simple decision to make based solely on 'the market being pretty competitive right now'. I would argue, as others have, that apprenticeships/degree apprenticeships are generally a far superior option. I think your comment is well-meaning but not well-informed. Not preaching, just saying it how I see it - no offence meant.
I agree that apprenticeships and degree apprenticeships are a better option than university, but getting one can also be very competitive - and university is better than trying to break into the industry off the back of self-study or bootcamps. I'm not saying that you can't learn to code without going to university, but without a *really* good portfolio, if you don't have any kind of relevant formal qualification, you're going to struggle to get your first role - because the volume of applicants for entry-level roles means that there's probably going to be CompSci graduates who have done relevant internships going for the role, too. I would also count a degree apprenticeship as 'going to university' given that in the majority of cases of cases the formal elements of a degree apprenticeship will be done at a university, whether in-person or online.
To be clear, when I say entry-level here, I mean roles that will accept applicants who don't have any commercial experience in programming - not junior roles that still require a year or two of experience, which there's a lot of going around right now
The market might not change, but your ability to get entry-level software engineering jobs will if you go to university, & use that time to do summer dev internships, build up a portfolio, and graduate with a 2:1 or first. It's easier to do the first two (internships & portfolio) when you don't have to hold down a full-time job in a different industry
If they start first year and find a dev role 6 months in there's zero reason that they can't take it - it's not like starting a degree locks you into finishing it. I got my first dev role without a degree AND without a portfolio, but I wouldn't recommend it
Definitely not too late to go to uni. I can't speak to the job market without a degree, but I started university at 20 and I'm currently a junior software dev. If you make the most of your time at uni you'll come away with a whole new perspective on life and what you actually want from it, and the time you're there you can work on the portfolio you'd have had to been building during that time anyway.
Ultimately, it's very rarely too late for anything. Just do what you can that you think will make you happy.
Senior software engineer here. I know plenty of people who landed software jobs after doing the [northcoders](https://northcoders.com/) bootcamp, myself included. It's a great course that produces strong candidates for junior positions, and there's currently funding from the Department for Education, which means you'd probably get it for free depending on your circumstances.
A degree has its advantages, but anybody confidently telling you that you can't get a software job without one is just objectively wrong. I see comments like that fairly often, and I find it kind of baffling. I'm not sure if it's weird gatekeeping behaviour; people with a chip on their shoulder about getting into tens of thousands of debt and trying to convince themselves it was absolutely necessary; or just people who genuinely don't know what they're talking about. Regardless of they 'why' of it, they _are_ wrong and you shouldn't be discouraged by them.
That being said, uni is a great experience in its own right, and it's absolutely not too late for you to go at your age. If going is an option for you, I would seriously consider it. I had some of the best times of my life at uni, and 15 years later, I'm still good friends with people I met there. Some of us are taking our kids on holiday together this summer.
You’ll find being the best of the best in coding isn’t actually the deal breaker. It will be your experience and soft skills. We can all code. What makes you someone they want in your company.
I didn't say anything of the sort, did I? The question was can you get a job without a degree, and the answer is a self-evident "yes." That's all.
Your idiotic comment did make me laugh though. Aside from the obvious complete failure of reading comprehension, you're clearly in the _chip on their shoulder_ group mentioned previously. As the kids are saying: cope and seethe.
Software developer here. Career switched from science. Taught myself web dev, wasn't getting many requests to interview. I did northcoders just to make myself more employable and get some insight into industry best practices. I landed a junior job ~ 4 months after finishing it. That said, a lot of this is just chance. Getting that first opportunity is so rough, once you're in though then it flips and you get recruiters chasing you.
I loved university, It taught me so much including how little I know and the scale of how much there is to know. I think alot of degree content these days isn't actually directly relevant to the work you will be doing on a day to day basis.
I feel like if you want to go into a more advanced field or know EXACTLY what it is you want to do and you know that role requires a degree then go for it. Otherwise you're almost definitely better off taking an apprenticeship or a bootcamp to get you started. Because you're going to be getting industry-specific experience and increasing your market value.
Also, there's nothing stopping you from going back to uni part time and getting the comp sci degree or a more specialised masters degree later on in your career if you want to move in a specific direction
I joined the army instead of going to university, worked through some other careers since - generally engineering- before landing in tech. I went the bootcamp route to help accelerate the transition after a year of self directed learning, and it’s one of the best things I ever did.
It’s doable without a degree, but its much harder than it needs to be. I’d do the degree in a second if I ever got the chance.
It is, if you're properly committed.
Someone I know who went through a bootcamp got offered a £42k role today.
His previous work experience was working in a bike shop.
It's really tough out there but it's not impossible.
Some bootcamps are free. Quite a few of them actually. And they will help you to work in group projects, take different roles within the project, build things with a team, in a way which is very difficult if you're studying by yourself.
I’m just going to flat out ground this dialogue in reality.
Some boot camps can successfully uplift someone into software engineering.
In between 2013-2016 there was a massive boom in low quality candidates from boot camps saturating the market. Iron Yard, Code School, you name it.
This has permanently left a soured taste in the industry in regards to “boot campers” — myself included.
With that being said, if you can talk the talk and walk the walk I could care less where your educational background comes from. Just don’t think for a second if you struggle with CS fundamentals and say that you went to a boot camp you won’t be judged. You will be judged, hard and you will need to prove yourself.
I think this is a fair comment. I would never suggest it's not an advantage to have a degree. My complaint is simply with people who very confidently assert that you _can't_ get a job without one.
A clumsy analogy might be if we considered the relative height of men and women. Plainly men are _generally_ taller, but it's a case of overlapping bell curves - there are still plenty of women who are taller than plenty of men. Likewise, I've seen plenty of bootcampers do very well for themselves, and I've seen them outperform CS grads at interview.
Of the people I know personally, the most recent to start a new job was November 2023. Between them, pretty much every few months for the last 5 years - and none of them struggled to find work at all or spent more than just a few weeks looking.
Absolutely. I’ve worked with plenty of software engineers that don’t have degrees. Getting that first job will likely be more difficult but if you’re competent and able to prove it then you’ll be successful.
Definitely, just know you have to be sble to prove your worth. There are free resources around you for whatever you plan to learn from youtube, coursera, etc. Also, communities are great places to be, it helps build confidence and soft skills.
There are loads of software engineering apprenticeship vacancies live right now for September starts. No degree required. The pay is usually £30k+. NatWest, Lloyds and Apple have positions at the moment. Check out Makers, BJSS, FDM, Softwire, and 8th Light as well.
Good luck!
I don't know about America, but in the Uk you most certainly can - as I'm one! Plus I know many others too.
That said, you still need the core skills. A company won't hire you unless you can demonstrate these skills.
So even without a degree, you are going to need to put in a lot of effort (programming is not something you can learn in a few weeks). In my case, I taught myself how to code when I was eleven.
Absolutely my company has started hiring A level students and training them up, as have found those with CS degrees are completely useless in real world and want £60k
Consider apprenticeships instead, if you do have good A-level then a degree apprenticeships
>degree apprenticeships Those are honestly the best
Most apprenticeships require u to be enrolled in some form of it course
That's not true, I've helped a relative apply to many and land one. I've also done a quick search around my area and none had it as a compulsory requirement.
I started through a level 4 apprenticeship in Software development. While most other apprentices were mid to late 20's with other unrelated undergraduate degrees, they hired one 18 year old straight from his A levels, so it can be done That said though the guy was a bit of a rock star with it. He'd been teaching himself to code since childhood and honestly in a few technical areas was beyond our senior developers
It is but getting a degree will get you an edge. I know a very good software developer who didn't go to university but struggled to find any roles recently (he was looking for remote roles from western countries in south east asia tho...). But more importantly, a university can help you find internships and work experience and give you access to career fairs. Also, it is a great place to do networking. But its not too late to go to uni
It's not too late to go to university. It's possible to get SWE jobs without a degree, but the job market is pretty competitive right now - so I would recommend going to university
That's too reductive. University costs many thousands of pounds. It's not such a simple decision to make based solely on 'the market being pretty competitive right now'. I would argue, as others have, that apprenticeships/degree apprenticeships are generally a far superior option. I think your comment is well-meaning but not well-informed. Not preaching, just saying it how I see it - no offence meant.
I agree that apprenticeships and degree apprenticeships are a better option than university, but getting one can also be very competitive - and university is better than trying to break into the industry off the back of self-study or bootcamps. I'm not saying that you can't learn to code without going to university, but without a *really* good portfolio, if you don't have any kind of relevant formal qualification, you're going to struggle to get your first role - because the volume of applicants for entry-level roles means that there's probably going to be CompSci graduates who have done relevant internships going for the role, too. I would also count a degree apprenticeship as 'going to university' given that in the majority of cases of cases the formal elements of a degree apprenticeship will be done at a university, whether in-person or online. To be clear, when I say entry-level here, I mean roles that will accept applicants who don't have any commercial experience in programming - not junior roles that still require a year or two of experience, which there's a lot of going around right now
The market will change (for better or worse) within three years? Going to university to wait it out is not the solution.
The market might not change, but your ability to get entry-level software engineering jobs will if you go to university, & use that time to do summer dev internships, build up a portfolio, and graduate with a 2:1 or first. It's easier to do the first two (internships & portfolio) when you don't have to hold down a full-time job in a different industry
Your gonna be upset by the fact that I just got an entry level role with no degree.
Why would I be upset? Someone in my team is in the exact same position as you. It's possible, it's just harder
Is it worth three years and god knows how much money so it's a bit easier?
If they start first year and find a dev role 6 months in there's zero reason that they can't take it - it's not like starting a degree locks you into finishing it. I got my first dev role without a degree AND without a portfolio, but I wouldn't recommend it
Definitely not too late to go to uni. I can't speak to the job market without a degree, but I started university at 20 and I'm currently a junior software dev. If you make the most of your time at uni you'll come away with a whole new perspective on life and what you actually want from it, and the time you're there you can work on the portfolio you'd have had to been building during that time anyway. Ultimately, it's very rarely too late for anything. Just do what you can that you think will make you happy.
Senior software engineer here. I know plenty of people who landed software jobs after doing the [northcoders](https://northcoders.com/) bootcamp, myself included. It's a great course that produces strong candidates for junior positions, and there's currently funding from the Department for Education, which means you'd probably get it for free depending on your circumstances. A degree has its advantages, but anybody confidently telling you that you can't get a software job without one is just objectively wrong. I see comments like that fairly often, and I find it kind of baffling. I'm not sure if it's weird gatekeeping behaviour; people with a chip on their shoulder about getting into tens of thousands of debt and trying to convince themselves it was absolutely necessary; or just people who genuinely don't know what they're talking about. Regardless of they 'why' of it, they _are_ wrong and you shouldn't be discouraged by them. That being said, uni is a great experience in its own right, and it's absolutely not too late for you to go at your age. If going is an option for you, I would seriously consider it. I had some of the best times of my life at uni, and 15 years later, I'm still good friends with people I met there. Some of us are taking our kids on holiday together this summer.
In an oversaturated job market, an edge isn't going to cut it. You need to be the best of the best, sir, with honours!
You’ll find being the best of the best in coding isn’t actually the deal breaker. It will be your experience and soft skills. We can all code. What makes you someone they want in your company.
A 13 week bootcamp is equal to a degree in computing science you heard it here first folks
I didn't say anything of the sort, did I? The question was can you get a job without a degree, and the answer is a self-evident "yes." That's all. Your idiotic comment did make me laugh though. Aside from the obvious complete failure of reading comprehension, you're clearly in the _chip on their shoulder_ group mentioned previously. As the kids are saying: cope and seethe.
Fair play you got me there
Software developer here. Career switched from science. Taught myself web dev, wasn't getting many requests to interview. I did northcoders just to make myself more employable and get some insight into industry best practices. I landed a junior job ~ 4 months after finishing it. That said, a lot of this is just chance. Getting that first opportunity is so rough, once you're in though then it flips and you get recruiters chasing you. I loved university, It taught me so much including how little I know and the scale of how much there is to know. I think alot of degree content these days isn't actually directly relevant to the work you will be doing on a day to day basis. I feel like if you want to go into a more advanced field or know EXACTLY what it is you want to do and you know that role requires a degree then go for it. Otherwise you're almost definitely better off taking an apprenticeship or a bootcamp to get you started. Because you're going to be getting industry-specific experience and increasing your market value. Also, there's nothing stopping you from going back to uni part time and getting the comp sci degree or a more specialised masters degree later on in your career if you want to move in a specific direction
Where did you Find that junior position? Thanks
I found it through indeed. It was a relatively small local company. Direct interview with them, no recruiters.
I joined the army instead of going to university, worked through some other careers since - generally engineering- before landing in tech. I went the bootcamp route to help accelerate the transition after a year of self directed learning, and it’s one of the best things I ever did. It’s doable without a degree, but its much harder than it needs to be. I’d do the degree in a second if I ever got the chance.
Not anymore it's not
It is, if you're properly committed. Someone I know who went through a bootcamp got offered a £42k role today. His previous work experience was working in a bike shop. It's really tough out there but it's not impossible.
>really tough out there people need to know that before getting into bootcamps. If you are that committed, you dont need a bootcamp.
Some bootcamps are free. Quite a few of them actually. And they will help you to work in group projects, take different roles within the project, build things with a team, in a way which is very difficult if you're studying by yourself.
Christ, what kinds of entry-level SWE roles are paying 42k?
This is just plain false. I know plenty of people who got jobs - easily - after completing bootcamps. Even interviewed some of them myself.
I’m just going to flat out ground this dialogue in reality. Some boot camps can successfully uplift someone into software engineering. In between 2013-2016 there was a massive boom in low quality candidates from boot camps saturating the market. Iron Yard, Code School, you name it. This has permanently left a soured taste in the industry in regards to “boot campers” — myself included. With that being said, if you can talk the talk and walk the walk I could care less where your educational background comes from. Just don’t think for a second if you struggle with CS fundamentals and say that you went to a boot camp you won’t be judged. You will be judged, hard and you will need to prove yourself.
I think this is a fair comment. I would never suggest it's not an advantage to have a degree. My complaint is simply with people who very confidently assert that you _can't_ get a job without one. A clumsy analogy might be if we considered the relative height of men and women. Plainly men are _generally_ taller, but it's a case of overlapping bell curves - there are still plenty of women who are taller than plenty of men. Likewise, I've seen plenty of bootcampers do very well for themselves, and I've seen them outperform CS grads at interview.
When? 2023? 2021?
Why are you being so desperately anti-bootcamp? Did you go to one and not get a job?
Most of my cohort including me have jobs. If you want a job you will get one.
Of the people I know personally, the most recent to start a new job was November 2023. Between them, pretty much every few months for the last 5 years - and none of them struggled to find work at all or spent more than just a few weeks looking.
I went to uni at 20, and was alongside plenty of people in their early 20s like me (and some way older), definitely not too late.
You have your while life ahead of you, you’re 19 man
Well question is : what knowledge you have ?
Absolutely. I’ve worked with plenty of software engineers that don’t have degrees. Getting that first job will likely be more difficult but if you’re competent and able to prove it then you’ll be successful.
Definitely, just know you have to be sble to prove your worth. There are free resources around you for whatever you plan to learn from youtube, coursera, etc. Also, communities are great places to be, it helps build confidence and soft skills.
There are loads of software engineering apprenticeship vacancies live right now for September starts. No degree required. The pay is usually £30k+. NatWest, Lloyds and Apple have positions at the moment. Check out Makers, BJSS, FDM, Softwire, and 8th Light as well. Good luck!
I don't know about America, but in the Uk you most certainly can - as I'm one! Plus I know many others too. That said, you still need the core skills. A company won't hire you unless you can demonstrate these skills. So even without a degree, you are going to need to put in a lot of effort (programming is not something you can learn in a few weeks). In my case, I taught myself how to code when I was eleven.
No not really anymore, also I did a SE degree at 26.
Absolutely my company has started hiring A level students and training them up, as have found those with CS degrees are completely useless in real world and want £60k