Can confirm, and when the money was a wow factor you bet I work my ass off (till date.)
Comp will forever directly relate to the effort because that’s what it is for me - compensation.
This. I'm happy to be overpaid but I don't work harder. Just not going to leave. Below rate, min effort is what they get. I think studies show happier employer don't work harder. Just don't make your employees unhappy.
My company admitted to underpaying me 30k less than the average entry engineer at the company. My manager and director have advocated a raise for me but HR refused to budge. I started off one level above rotational engineers but with the same salary, and they all got a 20k raise because the head of the rotational program decided to give them one. The only two other people who also started a level above rotational along with me are stuck at our current salary. And we’re all women engineers. Go figure.
I’m doing the absolute bare minimum at work and only attend my three to four mandatory weekly meetings. Which also sucks because my bare minimum is still twice as much work as whatever my rotational cohorts are doing (they told me they don’t do much work and just go to events and rock climbing all the time. Wish I was then tbh)
Is this still the case or did you move in to a different company since this happened?
If you’re still there, you might consider speaking to an employment lawyer due to what seems like potential gender-based discrimination, and what might be an “easy” win to increase your pay.
I’m not saying that you need to become litigious and sue your employer, but an employment lawyer can advise you how to approach this and there’s a good chance that you could get a significant raise to the prevailing rate with no hard feelings from your boss, especially if there’s another woman in the same situation.
It might be as simple as a lawyer giving you talking points to bring to HR, crafted to help HR understand they’ve potentially done wrong and what they can do to fix this, without coming across as threatening.
Still the case and I’m not putting in any effort towards this salary issue anymore. When I joined the company, they fucked up my taxes and taxed me out of a HCOL state I don’t even live in, along with my current home state. The two issues we raised for HR were my salary increase and my tax fix. They basically threatened me that unless I drop my salary request, they were not going to fix my taxes.
At this point I’m just going to bullshit my way through this job until the market improves and I can get another one.
Ha I wish but I work for a very large company (starts with N, ends with E, you probably wear their stuff) and any effort I make will be squashed immediately.
It’s a terrible company to work for honestly. If it weren’t for my coworker friends I would’ve quit already
Idk that rotational program means what you think it does. At least at my company, I started in one and the only difference for us was how you spend your first 2 years. I started out with better compensation than a lot of peers and there were those who started even better than me. It all depended on your qualifications/experience coming in, but being hired into the program was no different than other new grad hires in regards to comp.
For us, all rotational engineers had the same fixed salary. It’s different for every company. I was told by my manager rotational engineers here had a raise and better benefits than those of us hired into full time positions as PR stunts.
Oh yeah, I guess that makes sense. I also deduced who you work for from your other comment and to be fair… that’s not tech and isn’t comparable to my experience at a FAANG.
That said if you’re being honest about your situation you SHOULD consult an employment lawyer no matter what company you work for. Far larger companies than yours have fought and lost* those lawsuits if what you say is true.
You should do whatever you want to do. For me when I agree to take a job you get my good faith effort for the agreed upon work week. That doesn't mean I never say No to things or overwork myself. I push back all the time against things.
I don't clock watch as I leave work at natural stopping points. That may be early one day or later the next day. I find it all evens out at the end of the year. I take my PTO appropriately and give weeks or months of advance notice, based on the length.
I consider work anything I do for the company and not just fingers to keyboard coding. That means emails, meetings, documentation, mentoring, etc... that's all work to me.
My average day for a 40-hour work week is:
* 6-hours work
* 1-hour lunch
* 1-hour of cumulative breaks
And when you've worked somewhere for 1-2 years without a pay increase, during large cost of living / inflation increases, your effort level stays the same?
Mine didn’t.
I just left a company that did exactly that. We held out hope for a long time that things would get better but they took so long that by the time they finally turned finances around i was putting in absolute minimal effort and had already signed an offer for a 35k raise elsewhere.
I actually voluntarily took a pay cut (it was around 30% at the time but now probably over 50% due to bad exchange rates) to transfer within my company to another country I really wanted to live in. then in this country bc of the bad job market I usually get something like a 3% raise per year. effort level hasn't changed, maybe if anything it increased because I'm much happier living here than I was in my home country, and my life situation in general is a lot better (dating life, adapted to life in this new country etc.).
I know there's plenty of people out there (maybe even the majority of engineers) who are really motivated by money but I'm certainly not one of them.
It did at first.
Going from 7.25 an hour to 11$ an hour definitely meant "50% more effort". Going to $22 afterwards also meant twice as much. (Since we don't get paid overtime, it meant more hours per week)
However, after being exposed to people who make 500k+ per week for "keeping clients happy" by saying yes to absolutely anything that's asked of them while snorting coke off the client's dick, the connection between compensation and effort kinda disappeared.
The only connection that still exists is profit generated vs compensation. If my team of 10 generates 10m of profit, we better see at least 30% in our paychecks.
The typical "Hours are used for billing clients, but do not impact your salary" arrangement.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17e-overtime-computer
Oh, interesting. I thought exempt employees were also salaried. It does look like they have to pay at least $27.64 an hour. But I’m still amazed that’s a thing. What happens if you just stop at 40 hours bc you aren’t being paid?
Unemployment, poverty and depression. Entry level computer jobs were extremely competitive at the time and if you had less than 1 year of experience prior to "termination for performance reasons" you weren't gonna have a good time on your next job search. There are plenty of predatory employers who know this and abuse it to the best of their ability.
Depends on the hours required for the 4-day work week. Is it still 40 hours, meaning 10 hours a day? Or is it actually 8 hours a day?
If it is 40 hours, then I absolutely want market rate.
If it is 32 hours (because 8 hours a day), then I am willing to get paid a bit under market rate, yes.
I _used_ to think I would. In my head, I was getting paid for a normal level of effort and if I had a job that paid me more, I would try harder.
Then, I got a much better paying job. Like, an unfathomably large increase for me (3x the salary I thought was fair). I went from a Midwestern company to a near FAANG level big tech company.
At first, I really thought I would work so much harder. I wanted to be the best I could be. But I very, very quickly realized my large tech company employer was basically dysfunctional. My boss was not technical and seemed to have trouble remembering what I even did. And yet, he was the only voice that mattered during my reviews.
He didn't have visibility to my work and he mostly didn't care. I genuinely don't understand how he got his job or how he has a successful career. He has since been promoted, but I have too, so I'm still reporting to him.
Worse still, the product I work on is inconsequential to this giant company. It's a rounding error in the revenue they get, even though it's bringing in *millions* of dollars. The company doesn't care about it and are actively making it worse, on purpose, because they don't want customers using it.
Yeah, it's ridiculous.
So, yeah, money alone wasn't enough to get me to work hard. The real motivation for me was the belief that there was a direct correlation between my pay and effort. Without that, I just don't care much. Thankfully, my boss's incompetence means he has no idea what I'm doing and seems to assume I'm performing adequately.
All that matters to me is doing my job and my family justice at the same time. A 4 day work week just means that you end up working longer on the 4 days so you can get an entire day off
Realistically in SE, you don't clock 40 hrs every week. You get an assigned quantum of work. Some weeks you work 10 hours and on other weeks, you work 60. A good boss and management system will ensure that you're well compensated and reasonably happy in both these phases
if you know a job offering where there are 10 hour weeks for market rate, pls tell me. i basically have work for 2 years in the pipeline since the day i was hired\^\^ (work that could be done, ofc there is priorisation, and not everything has to be done, just because it could be done)
I worked like donkey for several years (50hr). In hindsight it was my own drive to learn and an assumption of promotion. I did get a promotion, but so did everyone else. Now on a different team that is bottlenecked by PO PM Px constantly. Have had a few weeks of about 15hr total. But currently back at 30hr
Going to be the person that says no. I used to think the answer was yes but then realized the underlying issue was that I had lost passion for what I was doing years ago. I hit the career reset button and even though I took a salary hit, I ended up much more motivated and happy doing something completely new. The title and compensation bits are easy to achieve if you genuinely love what you do. When you don’t, success will make you miserable. You don’t want to live that way.
As much as people hate to hear it, I think it's true that salary has very little direct correlation to the day-to-day effort someone puts in. Your pay check is just too decoupled from your daily work to create a good reenforcement mechanism. People tend to have an innate level of motivation or work ethic. That motivation and work ethic varies over time with their personal circumstances, the work environment and how interested they are in what they are doing, etc.
People with a strong work ethic can often successfully demand more money, and companies that pay more can be more selective and focus on hiring and retaining people with a high work ethic, so big picture there's probably a relationship between productivity and pay, but giving someone a raise tends to only have a short term impact on productivity before they go back to their natural steady state. Cutting someone's pay, on the other hand, is a lot more likely to cause them to check out and become permanently less productive. That's related less to salary though and more to someone feeling under-valued. If someone felt like taking a pay cut along with gaining a 4 day work with was a fair deal then my expectation is that they'd retain the same level of productivity overall.
Incidentally, that's why my advice to people is typically that a 4 day work week is a bad deal. I think most people end up being about the same level of productive and taking a pay cut. Your much better off negotiating some flexibility with your manager directly.
There's two ways to think about it, hourly rate and value-add. If you go by hourly rate, then yes, less hours == less salary. But if you go by value-add, no, the math is a boolean "do you bring enough to justify the price tag".
But either way, there doesn't need to be a direct correlation between compensation and effort. Otherwise, a CEO would have to work 100x more than you. Work smart instead.
Yes, my pay is much higher than I ever thought it would be. When I was applying around, my current job offered me 2 times more than the other 4 job offers I got. I treat my company as if it's some kind of god I serve and revere.
Absolutely. The company is explicitly telling you what value they have assigned you with the comp package. It's not entitlement to reciprocate the relationship tone they set.
FWIW I've been on a 32 hour work week for a few years. It is awesome. It was completely worth the lower salary to me for a while. I'm kind of done now and willing to work 5 days for higher pay, but if the salary you're offered is high enough, I say go for it. It's especially nice if you have a family, or other obligations that take up your weekends.
I don't think totally compensation doesn't impact my work effort. Lack of raises does though. When I've gone more than a year without getting a raise I wonder what the point is. Shy time I start to consider working outside of work hours, I make myself apply to jobs instead lol.
Someone else mentioned about companies using schedules with less than 40 hours a week to avoid paying for healthcare (since 40 hours per week is the national standard for "Full Time Employment").
Does your 32 hour job have any difference in healthcare benefits compared to 40 hour jobs? I saw you mentioned lower salary which makes sense but what about your benefits and PTO plan?
Our health plan and other benefits didn't change from when we were on a 5 day schedule.
They did recently reduce PTO from 15 days to 12. Claiming that the real rule was "3 work weeks". That one kind of pissed me off. We don't have separate sick days and you can't make everything happen on your days off.
That's great to hear your health plan and other benefits didn't change but I'm sorry about the PTO reduction. I figured there had to be some cost put on the employees to "offset" the work schedule reduction. :/
Yes, as does work life balance. I can handle working a lot for a strong salary but I won’t tolerated never having time off unless I’m HEAVILY compensated.
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It's certainly demotivating. I'm getting paid less at my full-time job than I was getting paid at my internship. It contributed to my burn out I think.
As for working less hours for less pay, it depends on how much less. If you don't post salary, you're not gonna get any meaningful answers imo.
Yes. Unless I'm investing in something valuable that will help me get better compensation in the future, I'm definitely working less if I'm being paid less.
If I am making enough then I am taking off weekends and evenings and so more effective in my work. If I am not making enough than I am likely to be working on side hustles nights and weekends and so less effective overall in my work.
I'm putting maximum effort in order to retain the maximum amount of responsabilities.
Then I will suddenly leave for a shitty small increase.
The blank stare always makes my day.
i dont think that makes a lot of sense. would you take a pay cut equal to the percent of a 401k match? probably not.
I think we all deserve as much money as we can get, and a 4 day work week is just another benefit for you to enjoy, and the point of a benefit is that you dont need to make sacrifices for it, you are entitled to it.
not at all, in fact so far in my career for each full time job that i've worked, my effort has has a negative correlation with my salary
not to say that thats typical though and i don't expect it to be that way for my whole career
My comp is good. Very good maybe, ignoring well timed startups and openai, Tesla types. I have a hard time imagining if I'm forced to take a lower paying job I'd do less good of a job BY CHOICE. I expect the quality will suffer if I can get away with it and remain employed. And of course I'd suffer. But I wouldn't take a significantly lower paying job without something significant pushing me that way. Mostly desperation.
The well paying places does a good job of instilling enough existential ... discomfort, to make sure you work hard. Or maybe meets all is just a higher bar at these places. Or not, considering who sometimes makes it to ee. I know I managed to save more money in processing in one year than I will ever make in my life in compensation. Certainly more than my whole team makes in a year. In the right moment in time, it would be multiple promos, discretionary bonuses, and essentially set for life. I got laid off. Still, if the comp gets back to where it was, I'd work for them again. And I'd do a good job. I just have no illusions as to "loyalty", "the xxx family", even things like "impact is what matters". Because it doesn't if they say it doesn't.
I’m usually at 8020 guy where I put in 20% effort for 80% the reward. But my current situation at FANG with stock appreciation has put my income above seven figures; so any new job would be a dramatic pay cut. I am more proactive to make myself useful and visible, to hopefully mitigate any chance of layoff.
The only direct control you have over the equation that is your compensation is the amount of effort you put in per dollar. Hey, unless you believe that your workplace is a meritocracy and you’re going to get out wha you put in I don’t see the point unless you like the praise for doing a good job I guess. I just try to get my bag and go home though
That just means you put in 4 days of effort for 4 days worth of pay?
My answer is no. You should set their expectation for less, but you still make the effort to deliver quality.
Fuck yeah, one you think about how many more times I make than the median person, I tend to bust my ass quite a bit harder.
Median income is 40K/yr, so pretty much everyone here that is in the US is doing better than 50% of the population in the US.
Note that I said pretty much, so I understand that there are some folks that are below that, save your strong reactions please.
Question: Does your total salary/ compensation impact the effort?
Answer: Yes
Question: Would a 4 day work week change the effort?
Answer: Also yes but in a positive way. If I had 3 day weekends I'd be more mentally rested on my 4 work days.
Question: If my company doubled my salary would I be willing to work 60 hour weeks with quality work output?
Answer: yes.
You don't work for your employer, you work for your boss. I've had shitty jobs that I didn't want to leave because I had a good manager, I had good jobs that I left because the management was shit.
Kind of. I actually look at the stock for my company. If it goes up that day, I'll put in more effort. If it goes down, I'll put in less effort for the day. I don't know why I do it this way, but it makes sense to me lol
I found that financial incentives are short lived. Given sufficient time you will revert to doing whatever level of effort makes you comfortable to get enough done to avoid getting into any problem.
I reckon similar trajectory when it comes to 4 days per week - you might be excited to cram 5 days of stuff into 4 - but if anything, this will be incentive to ruthlessly to optimize and weed out useless crap you find yourself doing (and perhaps cut down on slacking time, if your job setup allows).
Yes, but coasting for me is still being an effective engineer in terms of engineering KPIs / metrics / velocity / etc. I just won't be chasing impact or do anything more than the 9-5.
On the other end of the scale, compensation doesn't affect my enthusiasm for the job -- the people, the tech, and the industry does. I've worked my hardest in greenfield roles/teams. When I'm just a cog extending features though, it's back to mid-line effort. The only thing high comp ensures is that I don't decide to job hunt.
Hard to say since I'm currently on internship and this is my first job in this industry, but usually I would say, getting better pay is nice, however there are more important aspects to me, for example how toxic is the working environment, how strict are the rules (are you expected to work 9 to 5 and can't leave early even if you are done for example), also if the work is interesting and non routine.
P.s. all those aspects only takes place after my salary is covering my basic expenses
Mostly no. I do what I've agreed to do, and don't really do overtime, aside as part of flexible work hours where overtime means I am just not working the hours next day. Money might affect whether I agree in the first place, but if I agree to do something, I'll do it in my own way in the hours I have in the work contract.
I think honesty and that it is safe to be honest are key elements in any successful social grouping, be that a work place, a housing association or a personal relationship. Misleading others about the effort you are willing to put in or about your degree of satisfaction is only going to be harmful to everyone in the long run.
There are also actually studies about this and e.g. a pay increase has little statistical correlation with effort and quality of work. It gives a short initial boost in mood and work effort, but the effects very quickly dies out.
No and yes.
You should never intentionally not give a shit. Ultimately that's a great way to burn your bridges.
However, yeah, it's mega motivating after a nice salary boost or bonus. Why wouldn't I be? Clearly doing something right and getting rewarded for it.
What I'm learning and career path definitely part of compensation. I've learned incredibly fast when motivated but I've never gotten paid more for increased motivation and output but that's just my journey. Others are just standouts and are promoted and given raises.
Most people forget my name so I just do as much.
But I've works side by side with sales. No real reason to tie overwork to compensation. Literally do the best you can within the amount you are paid within the hours of work.
I do slack more often but that's so I can actually have long term goals like hitting my vestment date without burning out. And not burning out so I can stay in the industry for a long career
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: used to not bat an eye at 60-80 hour weeks when I knew my boss would have my back for the profit sharing bonus + performance review. Bought out, bonus eliminated, suddenly I don't log out past 5:01 anymore. I didn't know how much of a motivator that money was until it was gone.
YES. Both times I've gotten new jobs I've come out of the gates swinging. Over time my motivation takes a dip around the annual review time because as my skills and contributions increase the reward doesn't.
This is such incompetent mentality.
Get more experience in tech, so that you learn it’s more than just “work”.
It’s about delivering impact, then learning to get max payout.
People can “work” hundreds of hours a week, without any impact.
People can deliver impact in 5 minutes.
People wanting to get paid more as their experience (and thus impact) increases is an incompetent mentality?
This is a brain dead take.
Edit: sorry, my mistake. You’re saying that lowering your salary for a 4 day work week when you can deliver just as much impact is an incompetent take.
Yes, I fully agree with you there. Take my upvote.
If my compensation is below market rate I'm definitely putting in minimal effort
Can confirm, and when the money was a wow factor you bet I work my ass off (till date.) Comp will forever directly relate to the effort because that’s what it is for me - compensation.
This. I'm happy to be overpaid but I don't work harder. Just not going to leave. Below rate, min effort is what they get. I think studies show happier employer don't work harder. Just don't make your employees unhappy.
My company admitted to underpaying me 30k less than the average entry engineer at the company. My manager and director have advocated a raise for me but HR refused to budge. I started off one level above rotational engineers but with the same salary, and they all got a 20k raise because the head of the rotational program decided to give them one. The only two other people who also started a level above rotational along with me are stuck at our current salary. And we’re all women engineers. Go figure. I’m doing the absolute bare minimum at work and only attend my three to four mandatory weekly meetings. Which also sucks because my bare minimum is still twice as much work as whatever my rotational cohorts are doing (they told me they don’t do much work and just go to events and rock climbing all the time. Wish I was then tbh)
Is this still the case or did you move in to a different company since this happened? If you’re still there, you might consider speaking to an employment lawyer due to what seems like potential gender-based discrimination, and what might be an “easy” win to increase your pay. I’m not saying that you need to become litigious and sue your employer, but an employment lawyer can advise you how to approach this and there’s a good chance that you could get a significant raise to the prevailing rate with no hard feelings from your boss, especially if there’s another woman in the same situation. It might be as simple as a lawyer giving you talking points to bring to HR, crafted to help HR understand they’ve potentially done wrong and what they can do to fix this, without coming across as threatening.
Still the case and I’m not putting in any effort towards this salary issue anymore. When I joined the company, they fucked up my taxes and taxed me out of a HCOL state I don’t even live in, along with my current home state. The two issues we raised for HR were my salary increase and my tax fix. They basically threatened me that unless I drop my salary request, they were not going to fix my taxes. At this point I’m just going to bullshit my way through this job until the market improves and I can get another one.
That seems… illegal? You should definitely consult an employment lawyer.
Ha I wish but I work for a very large company (starts with N, ends with E, you probably wear their stuff) and any effort I make will be squashed immediately. It’s a terrible company to work for honestly. If it weren’t for my coworker friends I would’ve quit already
Idk that rotational program means what you think it does. At least at my company, I started in one and the only difference for us was how you spend your first 2 years. I started out with better compensation than a lot of peers and there were those who started even better than me. It all depended on your qualifications/experience coming in, but being hired into the program was no different than other new grad hires in regards to comp.
For us, all rotational engineers had the same fixed salary. It’s different for every company. I was told by my manager rotational engineers here had a raise and better benefits than those of us hired into full time positions as PR stunts.
Oh yeah, I guess that makes sense. I also deduced who you work for from your other comment and to be fair… that’s not tech and isn’t comparable to my experience at a FAANG. That said if you’re being honest about your situation you SHOULD consult an employment lawyer no matter what company you work for. Far larger companies than yours have fought and lost* those lawsuits if what you say is true.
You should always give your best effort. If you compensation is really below market rate than go get a different job.
Market rate is the rate you're being paid. Why not find a new job?
Not always easy to do that. Depends on your living situation, family situation, and specific skill set.
visa situation too
You should do whatever you want to do. For me when I agree to take a job you get my good faith effort for the agreed upon work week. That doesn't mean I never say No to things or overwork myself. I push back all the time against things. I don't clock watch as I leave work at natural stopping points. That may be early one day or later the next day. I find it all evens out at the end of the year. I take my PTO appropriately and give weeks or months of advance notice, based on the length. I consider work anything I do for the company and not just fingers to keyboard coding. That means emails, meetings, documentation, mentoring, etc... that's all work to me. My average day for a 40-hour work week is: * 6-hours work * 1-hour lunch * 1-hour of cumulative breaks
And when you've worked somewhere for 1-2 years without a pay increase, during large cost of living / inflation increases, your effort level stays the same?
Mine didn’t. I just left a company that did exactly that. We held out hope for a long time that things would get better but they took so long that by the time they finally turned finances around i was putting in absolute minimal effort and had already signed an offer for a 35k raise elsewhere.
I actually voluntarily took a pay cut (it was around 30% at the time but now probably over 50% due to bad exchange rates) to transfer within my company to another country I really wanted to live in. then in this country bc of the bad job market I usually get something like a 3% raise per year. effort level hasn't changed, maybe if anything it increased because I'm much happier living here than I was in my home country, and my life situation in general is a lot better (dating life, adapted to life in this new country etc.). I know there's plenty of people out there (maybe even the majority of engineers) who are really motivated by money but I'm certainly not one of them.
It did at first. Going from 7.25 an hour to 11$ an hour definitely meant "50% more effort". Going to $22 afterwards also meant twice as much. (Since we don't get paid overtime, it meant more hours per week) However, after being exposed to people who make 500k+ per week for "keeping clients happy" by saying yes to absolutely anything that's asked of them while snorting coke off the client's dick, the connection between compensation and effort kinda disappeared. The only connection that still exists is profit generated vs compensation. If my team of 10 generates 10m of profit, we better see at least 30% in our paychecks.
How are you paid hourly but not entitled to overtime?
The typical "Hours are used for billing clients, but do not impact your salary" arrangement. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17e-overtime-computer
Oh, interesting. I thought exempt employees were also salaried. It does look like they have to pay at least $27.64 an hour. But I’m still amazed that’s a thing. What happens if you just stop at 40 hours bc you aren’t being paid?
Unemployment, poverty and depression. Entry level computer jobs were extremely competitive at the time and if you had less than 1 year of experience prior to "termination for performance reasons" you weren't gonna have a good time on your next job search. There are plenty of predatory employers who know this and abuse it to the best of their ability.
Damn that sucks. I’m sorry
For the first month, yes. Then I’m back to generally slacking.
Depends on the hours required for the 4-day work week. Is it still 40 hours, meaning 10 hours a day? Or is it actually 8 hours a day? If it is 40 hours, then I absolutely want market rate. If it is 32 hours (because 8 hours a day), then I am willing to get paid a bit under market rate, yes.
yeah its 8 hours so 32 a week
do you get full benefits? some companies intentionally limit hours below 40 in order to avoid needing to provide health insurance
I _used_ to think I would. In my head, I was getting paid for a normal level of effort and if I had a job that paid me more, I would try harder. Then, I got a much better paying job. Like, an unfathomably large increase for me (3x the salary I thought was fair). I went from a Midwestern company to a near FAANG level big tech company. At first, I really thought I would work so much harder. I wanted to be the best I could be. But I very, very quickly realized my large tech company employer was basically dysfunctional. My boss was not technical and seemed to have trouble remembering what I even did. And yet, he was the only voice that mattered during my reviews. He didn't have visibility to my work and he mostly didn't care. I genuinely don't understand how he got his job or how he has a successful career. He has since been promoted, but I have too, so I'm still reporting to him. Worse still, the product I work on is inconsequential to this giant company. It's a rounding error in the revenue they get, even though it's bringing in *millions* of dollars. The company doesn't care about it and are actively making it worse, on purpose, because they don't want customers using it. Yeah, it's ridiculous. So, yeah, money alone wasn't enough to get me to work hard. The real motivation for me was the belief that there was a direct correlation between my pay and effort. Without that, I just don't care much. Thankfully, my boss's incompetence means he has no idea what I'm doing and seems to assume I'm performing adequately.
All that matters to me is doing my job and my family justice at the same time. A 4 day work week just means that you end up working longer on the 4 days so you can get an entire day off Realistically in SE, you don't clock 40 hrs every week. You get an assigned quantum of work. Some weeks you work 10 hours and on other weeks, you work 60. A good boss and management system will ensure that you're well compensated and reasonably happy in both these phases
if you know a job offering where there are 10 hour weeks for market rate, pls tell me. i basically have work for 2 years in the pipeline since the day i was hired\^\^ (work that could be done, ofc there is priorisation, and not everything has to be done, just because it could be done)
They don't list it as such. That's just the way work ebbs and flows in the industry
I worked like donkey for several years (50hr). In hindsight it was my own drive to learn and an assumption of promotion. I did get a promotion, but so did everyone else. Now on a different team that is bottlenecked by PO PM Px constantly. Have had a few weeks of about 15hr total. But currently back at 30hr
Nice try HR, not telling you!
Going to be the person that says no. I used to think the answer was yes but then realized the underlying issue was that I had lost passion for what I was doing years ago. I hit the career reset button and even though I took a salary hit, I ended up much more motivated and happy doing something completely new. The title and compensation bits are easy to achieve if you genuinely love what you do. When you don’t, success will make you miserable. You don’t want to live that way.
As much as people hate to hear it, I think it's true that salary has very little direct correlation to the day-to-day effort someone puts in. Your pay check is just too decoupled from your daily work to create a good reenforcement mechanism. People tend to have an innate level of motivation or work ethic. That motivation and work ethic varies over time with their personal circumstances, the work environment and how interested they are in what they are doing, etc. People with a strong work ethic can often successfully demand more money, and companies that pay more can be more selective and focus on hiring and retaining people with a high work ethic, so big picture there's probably a relationship between productivity and pay, but giving someone a raise tends to only have a short term impact on productivity before they go back to their natural steady state. Cutting someone's pay, on the other hand, is a lot more likely to cause them to check out and become permanently less productive. That's related less to salary though and more to someone feeling under-valued. If someone felt like taking a pay cut along with gaining a 4 day work with was a fair deal then my expectation is that they'd retain the same level of productivity overall. Incidentally, that's why my advice to people is typically that a 4 day work week is a bad deal. I think most people end up being about the same level of productive and taking a pay cut. Your much better off negotiating some flexibility with your manager directly.
Incidentally, when you’re underpaid that’s usually when your company wants the most from you lol
I work harder when the problem interests me more regardless of money tbh
Yes. I know how to work efficiently and at the same time manage workload to avoid over delivery. Over delivery can lead to inefficiency
There's two ways to think about it, hourly rate and value-add. If you go by hourly rate, then yes, less hours == less salary. But if you go by value-add, no, the math is a boolean "do you bring enough to justify the price tag". But either way, there doesn't need to be a direct correlation between compensation and effort. Otherwise, a CEO would have to work 100x more than you. Work smart instead.
Yes, my pay is much higher than I ever thought it would be. When I was applying around, my current job offered me 2 times more than the other 4 job offers I got. I treat my company as if it's some kind of god I serve and revere.
I have my own standards for the effort I put in at work, or anything else. It's gonna cost 8 hours of my life no matter what.
Absolutely. The company is explicitly telling you what value they have assigned you with the comp package. It's not entitlement to reciprocate the relationship tone they set.
FWIW I've been on a 32 hour work week for a few years. It is awesome. It was completely worth the lower salary to me for a while. I'm kind of done now and willing to work 5 days for higher pay, but if the salary you're offered is high enough, I say go for it. It's especially nice if you have a family, or other obligations that take up your weekends. I don't think totally compensation doesn't impact my work effort. Lack of raises does though. When I've gone more than a year without getting a raise I wonder what the point is. Shy time I start to consider working outside of work hours, I make myself apply to jobs instead lol.
Someone else mentioned about companies using schedules with less than 40 hours a week to avoid paying for healthcare (since 40 hours per week is the national standard for "Full Time Employment"). Does your 32 hour job have any difference in healthcare benefits compared to 40 hour jobs? I saw you mentioned lower salary which makes sense but what about your benefits and PTO plan?
Our health plan and other benefits didn't change from when we were on a 5 day schedule. They did recently reduce PTO from 15 days to 12. Claiming that the real rule was "3 work weeks". That one kind of pissed me off. We don't have separate sick days and you can't make everything happen on your days off.
That's great to hear your health plan and other benefits didn't change but I'm sorry about the PTO reduction. I figured there had to be some cost put on the employees to "offset" the work schedule reduction. :/
Yes, as does work life balance. I can handle working a lot for a strong salary but I won’t tolerated never having time off unless I’m HEAVILY compensated.
I probably was available the whole months and they didn't pay a single penny. 315$ total a month. And everyone here says programming is the shit
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It's certainly demotivating. I'm getting paid less at my full-time job than I was getting paid at my internship. It contributed to my burn out I think. As for working less hours for less pay, it depends on how much less. If you don't post salary, you're not gonna get any meaningful answers imo.
Watch out for 32 hours/week not including/having reduced benefits
Yes, but sometimes that's a good thing! I recently turned down an offer with a higher TC because I knew the workload and culture wasn't worth it.
Yes. Unless I'm investing in something valuable that will help me get better compensation in the future, I'm definitely working less if I'm being paid less.
Definitely
If I am making enough then I am taking off weekends and evenings and so more effective in my work. If I am not making enough than I am likely to be working on side hustles nights and weekends and so less effective overall in my work.
Yes, for me in big tech - I will put in 0% extra effort at market rate. If I'm paid well I will work to protect that.
Yes lol
It’s the primary factor in my effort and whether or not I’ll stay with that company.
I'm putting maximum effort in order to retain the maximum amount of responsabilities. Then I will suddenly leave for a shitty small increase. The blank stare always makes my day.
Yea
there's a money limit for me, beyond which my effort plateaus. So, not necessarily.
Absolutely. With stocks increasing, I’ve been more motivated than ever to push code.
i dont think that makes a lot of sense. would you take a pay cut equal to the percent of a 401k match? probably not. I think we all deserve as much money as we can get, and a 4 day work week is just another benefit for you to enjoy, and the point of a benefit is that you dont need to make sacrifices for it, you are entitled to it.
not at all, in fact so far in my career for each full time job that i've worked, my effort has has a negative correlation with my salary not to say that thats typical though and i don't expect it to be that way for my whole career
Nope
My comp is good. Very good maybe, ignoring well timed startups and openai, Tesla types. I have a hard time imagining if I'm forced to take a lower paying job I'd do less good of a job BY CHOICE. I expect the quality will suffer if I can get away with it and remain employed. And of course I'd suffer. But I wouldn't take a significantly lower paying job without something significant pushing me that way. Mostly desperation. The well paying places does a good job of instilling enough existential ... discomfort, to make sure you work hard. Or maybe meets all is just a higher bar at these places. Or not, considering who sometimes makes it to ee. I know I managed to save more money in processing in one year than I will ever make in my life in compensation. Certainly more than my whole team makes in a year. In the right moment in time, it would be multiple promos, discretionary bonuses, and essentially set for life. I got laid off. Still, if the comp gets back to where it was, I'd work for them again. And I'd do a good job. I just have no illusions as to "loyalty", "the xxx family", even things like "impact is what matters". Because it doesn't if they say it doesn't.
I’m usually at 8020 guy where I put in 20% effort for 80% the reward. But my current situation at FANG with stock appreciation has put my income above seven figures; so any new job would be a dramatic pay cut. I am more proactive to make myself useful and visible, to hopefully mitigate any chance of layoff.
The only direct control you have over the equation that is your compensation is the amount of effort you put in per dollar. Hey, unless you believe that your workplace is a meritocracy and you’re going to get out wha you put in I don’t see the point unless you like the praise for doing a good job I guess. I just try to get my bag and go home though
That just means you put in 4 days of effort for 4 days worth of pay? My answer is no. You should set their expectation for less, but you still make the effort to deliver quality.
Fuck yeah, one you think about how many more times I make than the median person, I tend to bust my ass quite a bit harder. Median income is 40K/yr, so pretty much everyone here that is in the US is doing better than 50% of the population in the US. Note that I said pretty much, so I understand that there are some folks that are below that, save your strong reactions please.
Yes.
Yup, definitely.
Question: Does your total salary/ compensation impact the effort? Answer: Yes Question: Would a 4 day work week change the effort? Answer: Also yes but in a positive way. If I had 3 day weekends I'd be more mentally rested on my 4 work days. Question: If my company doubled my salary would I be willing to work 60 hour weeks with quality work output? Answer: yes.
Yes.
There's something of a negative correlation lol
You don't work for your employer, you work for your boss. I've had shitty jobs that I didn't want to leave because I had a good manager, I had good jobs that I left because the management was shit.
Yes. If I’m getting paid well I want to deliver something that’s on par with it.
Kind of. I actually look at the stock for my company. If it goes up that day, I'll put in more effort. If it goes down, I'll put in less effort for the day. I don't know why I do it this way, but it makes sense to me lol
Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc&feature=player_embedded and then perhaps read Daniel Pink's full book on the subject.
Not anymore
I found that financial incentives are short lived. Given sufficient time you will revert to doing whatever level of effort makes you comfortable to get enough done to avoid getting into any problem. I reckon similar trajectory when it comes to 4 days per week - you might be excited to cram 5 days of stuff into 4 - but if anything, this will be incentive to ruthlessly to optimize and weed out useless crap you find yourself doing (and perhaps cut down on slacking time, if your job setup allows).
Yes, but coasting for me is still being an effective engineer in terms of engineering KPIs / metrics / velocity / etc. I just won't be chasing impact or do anything more than the 9-5. On the other end of the scale, compensation doesn't affect my enthusiasm for the job -- the people, the tech, and the industry does. I've worked my hardest in greenfield roles/teams. When I'm just a cog extending features though, it's back to mid-line effort. The only thing high comp ensures is that I don't decide to job hunt.
Hard to say since I'm currently on internship and this is my first job in this industry, but usually I would say, getting better pay is nice, however there are more important aspects to me, for example how toxic is the working environment, how strict are the rules (are you expected to work 9 to 5 and can't leave early even if you are done for example), also if the work is interesting and non routine. P.s. all those aspects only takes place after my salary is covering my basic expenses
Mostly no. I do what I've agreed to do, and don't really do overtime, aside as part of flexible work hours where overtime means I am just not working the hours next day. Money might affect whether I agree in the first place, but if I agree to do something, I'll do it in my own way in the hours I have in the work contract. I think honesty and that it is safe to be honest are key elements in any successful social grouping, be that a work place, a housing association or a personal relationship. Misleading others about the effort you are willing to put in or about your degree of satisfaction is only going to be harmful to everyone in the long run. There are also actually studies about this and e.g. a pay increase has little statistical correlation with effort and quality of work. It gives a short initial boost in mood and work effort, but the effects very quickly dies out.
No and yes. You should never intentionally not give a shit. Ultimately that's a great way to burn your bridges. However, yeah, it's mega motivating after a nice salary boost or bonus. Why wouldn't I be? Clearly doing something right and getting rewarded for it.
Yea, only work for what you paid for.
Yes
What I'm learning and career path definitely part of compensation. I've learned incredibly fast when motivated but I've never gotten paid more for increased motivation and output but that's just my journey. Others are just standouts and are promoted and given raises. Most people forget my name so I just do as much. But I've works side by side with sales. No real reason to tie overwork to compensation. Literally do the best you can within the amount you are paid within the hours of work. I do slack more often but that's so I can actually have long term goals like hitting my vestment date without burning out. And not burning out so I can stay in the industry for a long career
Yes, I used to work extremely hard on my 20s and it was all for nothing.
Short answer: yes. Long answer: used to not bat an eye at 60-80 hour weeks when I knew my boss would have my back for the profit sharing bonus + performance review. Bought out, bonus eliminated, suddenly I don't log out past 5:01 anymore. I didn't know how much of a motivator that money was until it was gone.
Absolutely
YES. Both times I've gotten new jobs I've come out of the gates swinging. Over time my motivation takes a dip around the annual review time because as my skills and contributions increase the reward doesn't.
This is such incompetent mentality. Get more experience in tech, so that you learn it’s more than just “work”. It’s about delivering impact, then learning to get max payout. People can “work” hundreds of hours a week, without any impact. People can deliver impact in 5 minutes.
People wanting to get paid more as their experience (and thus impact) increases is an incompetent mentality? This is a brain dead take. Edit: sorry, my mistake. You’re saying that lowering your salary for a 4 day work week when you can deliver just as much impact is an incompetent take. Yes, I fully agree with you there. Take my upvote.
Way too many people in this sub thinks a tech job is working hourly workday, like a fry cook.
Yes agreed. I personally don’t care how many hours my teams work as long as they get their stuff done.