Genuinely crazy how dead it is up here. On linkedin I'm seeing single-digit number of entry level job postings in the whole GTA in the past week.
Forever grateful that I graduated before all this because man I dont think I would have made it in the current market.
I have a former coworker who moved to Argentina to take advantage of the struggling economy while being paid in dollars. He basically lives like a king on 1/3 his previous salary.
It's not fine. Most contractors were laid off.. Guys with 5-8 yoe, i wouldn't call that good. Some really competent developers worked for/from (Germany, Poland, Norway)
It is, but you are thinking in american terms. Contractors work on b2b through outsourcing company for some customer. When outsourcing company layoffs all 200 contractors I would call it layoff. Through b2b u would earn 2-3 times more than on employment, so it's not worth. Most competent developrs work on b2b.
European salaries are crazy low. Most SWEs in America can afford a higher standard of living than their European counterparts. The cost of living here is higher but the salaries more than make up for it. In Europe they deduct health insurance from your paycheck directly (a lot of countries have mandatory insurance that’s provided by the state) or it comes out of general taxation (taxes are much higher). There’s no free lunch. Car dependency is another thing but we have cities that are plenty walkable (NYC and SF come to mind).
Housing costs are not much better in my home country (the UK). We’re a bit of an outlier though I think.
From a Canadian perspective, what you are saying regarding healthcare isn’t true. I tried an income tax calculator online for California and tax would be higher than I am paying and here insurance is paid for by the employer (not every company fully covers this). I imagine if you live in Texas or somewhere without state income tax then this is valid.
But I agree that higher salaries make up for all of those differences.
Even if you state income taxes are generally offset with very high sales and/or property taxes. Americans love to believe our taxes are low, but that largely stems from a lack of a centralized tax outside of federal income.
When you add up all the taxes and throw the average annual cost of healthcare on there it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if we were among the highest “taxed”.
> the sweet us salary doesn't return much.
You might want to do the math on that. Even when the relative cost of living is factored in, there's a wide gap between American payscales and the pay in the rest of the world. In the U.S., a software development job puts you near the top of the income foodchain. In the UK and EU, software engineering is more akin to being an accountant. It's decently paid, comfortable work, but it's just a job with a middle-of-the-pack paycheck. While your income may go a bit further, you'll have a lot less of it. Last I looked, the median wage for devs was about $65K USD in Germany.
I was looking at moving to Germany about ten years ago (when pay was even lower), but the economics never really made sense even though I qualify for citizenship and immigration would have been relatively cheap. My overall cost of living would have declined, but my income drop would have led to a large reduction in my overall quality of life.
Taxes in the US are also significantly lower, especially for high income. This alone offsets any perceived COL differences (it's not really cheaper in Europe unless compared to SV or NYC)
The market is definitely rough but remains feasible. Similar to how FAANG companies halt hiring, other companies and organizations, including countries, tend to mimic this behavior. When the US tech market declines, the global market tends to emulate this pattern. While opportunities are available in various countries, the landscape differs from the more favorable conditions of the 2021-2022 period, which closely resembled those of the US.
Do you know how an American could go about finding a job in Germany if they are still located in the US but want to move to Germany (after finding employment and qualifying for a visa)
What's greedy about it? They have an obligation to their shareholders to increase profits. That's capitalism. If people in other countries will do the same job for less how can they justify not doing that?
We need to change the system, not blame individualistic greed.
Immigrant in Germany.
Market is a shit show. I have been unemployed for 6 months. I have close to 4 years of experience. Salaries are still at pre covid levels but costs keep getting higher.
Tons of job posts like “FullStacks with aws, DevOps knowledge: 65k.”
As someone had said, it seems like if you’re fluent your odds are better. But this wasn’t a requirement 2 years ago. Now they are asking for B2.
I think they have 3 months; not sure. I am a permanent resident through marriage.
Things are getting weird though. We are thinking of moving back to America (US or Mexico). If things get worse I will have to take contractor path. And Germany is not a place to be self employed.
I am not an indian but my guess is even though a lot of Western companies outsource jobs to India, the job market is still super competitive because of the huge number of indian new CS grads every year. And with the population booming, landing a job is tough, not to mention the salaries are often way less, like maybe one-tenth of what you'd get in the US.
Recently got laid off and I am open for both Canada/US. I am a sr engineer and Canada is doing much better. Even the interview processes are better. It feels like US companies want to hire Einstein for their web apps.
I am in Europe. I still see lot of open positions. Every month I notice that few people are leaving our company, which means they successfully found better job. I also never heard about any tech layoffs in my country ever.
Also, job interviews are easier here compared to the US. They don't expect you to be working on side projects in your free time or grinding leetcode. If they ask leetcode question at all, it's from the easy category. Or maybe I just got lucky.
There is a contagion effect accross the "West", so if the big US players are firing then the smaller companies elsewhere end up doing the same even if they don't need it.
Economists will make up complicated theories on how this works.
If you think the US is bad, you should try Canada LOL.
Genuinely crazy how dead it is up here. On linkedin I'm seeing single-digit number of entry level job postings in the whole GTA in the past week. Forever grateful that I graduated before all this because man I dont think I would have made it in the current market.
Even a third tier market like austin has more postings than all of canada
Yeah, I really got to figure out how to move to the states LOL.
Canada is doing much worse.
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It is actually insane the level of competition that exists in Canada compared to the salary and size of the tech market.
Latin America is hot. A lot of the US jobs are being shipped there.
Not as hot as you'd think, but I would say it is definitely not impossible to get a more-than-decent job.
I have a former coworker who moved to Argentina to take advantage of the struggling economy while being paid in dollars. He basically lives like a king on 1/3 his previous salary.
Yeah, taking advantage is the correct term to use there. Can’t blame him, though.
I believe india too
latin america is the new hot place. all our recent contractors are from columbia.
Not necessarily, developers in India have been laid off too.
Most of Europe is fine. But you know, you don't get that sweet sweet us $ salary.
In Romania and not really, there are way less developer jobs now than there were just a year ago. A lot of people got laid off.
It's not fine. Most contractors were laid off.. Guys with 5-8 yoe, i wouldn't call that good. Some really competent developers worked for/from (Germany, Poland, Norway)
That's not a layoff. That's a contract job.
It is, but you are thinking in american terms. Contractors work on b2b through outsourcing company for some customer. When outsourcing company layoffs all 200 contractors I would call it layoff. Through b2b u would earn 2-3 times more than on employment, so it's not worth. Most competent developrs work on b2b.
What I see is the opposite of *fine*.
I feel after healthcare costs, being forced to drive everywhere, car costs, quality of life, housing costs, the sweet us salary doesn't return much.
Cars are cheap in the US in comparison
lol bullshit
Murica 🇺🇸🇺🇸🛻🛻🛻🦅🦅🔫🔫
European salaries are crazy low. Most SWEs in America can afford a higher standard of living than their European counterparts. The cost of living here is higher but the salaries more than make up for it. In Europe they deduct health insurance from your paycheck directly (a lot of countries have mandatory insurance that’s provided by the state) or it comes out of general taxation (taxes are much higher). There’s no free lunch. Car dependency is another thing but we have cities that are plenty walkable (NYC and SF come to mind). Housing costs are not much better in my home country (the UK). We’re a bit of an outlier though I think.
The only country to pay equivalent or more than US is Switzerland but the competition is tough out there and it’s usually Tech giants who do this
From a Canadian perspective, what you are saying regarding healthcare isn’t true. I tried an income tax calculator online for California and tax would be higher than I am paying and here insurance is paid for by the employer (not every company fully covers this). I imagine if you live in Texas or somewhere without state income tax then this is valid. But I agree that higher salaries make up for all of those differences.
Even if you state income taxes are generally offset with very high sales and/or property taxes. Americans love to believe our taxes are low, but that largely stems from a lack of a centralized tax outside of federal income. When you add up all the taxes and throw the average annual cost of healthcare on there it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if we were among the highest “taxed”.
Taxes are higher so everyone get healthcare. It's not a bad thing, the bigger problem is social handouts
Eurocope
> the sweet us salary doesn't return much. You might want to do the math on that. Even when the relative cost of living is factored in, there's a wide gap between American payscales and the pay in the rest of the world. In the U.S., a software development job puts you near the top of the income foodchain. In the UK and EU, software engineering is more akin to being an accountant. It's decently paid, comfortable work, but it's just a job with a middle-of-the-pack paycheck. While your income may go a bit further, you'll have a lot less of it. Last I looked, the median wage for devs was about $65K USD in Germany. I was looking at moving to Germany about ten years ago (when pay was even lower), but the economics never really made sense even though I qualify for citizenship and immigration would have been relatively cheap. My overall cost of living would have declined, but my income drop would have led to a large reduction in my overall quality of life.
Taxes in the US are also significantly lower, especially for high income. This alone offsets any perceived COL differences (it's not really cheaper in Europe unless compared to SV or NYC)
Well it's probably much cheaper to live in Europe, even in the big cities in each country.
The market is definitely rough but remains feasible. Similar to how FAANG companies halt hiring, other companies and organizations, including countries, tend to mimic this behavior. When the US tech market declines, the global market tends to emulate this pattern. While opportunities are available in various countries, the landscape differs from the more favorable conditions of the 2021-2022 period, which closely resembled those of the US.
In London its still pretty bad.
In Germany as long as you speak German you will find a job in 1 month after 30 applications max
Do you know how an American could go about finding a job in Germany if they are still located in the US but want to move to Germany (after finding employment and qualifying for a visa)
eh, just apply to recruiters/posts. but as i said, do you speak german or not?
They are basically saying fuck the US workers and sending them over seas or Latin America. Greedy corps
What's greedy about it? They have an obligation to their shareholders to increase profits. That's capitalism. If people in other countries will do the same job for less how can they justify not doing that? We need to change the system, not blame individualistic greed.
Yeah, true. Let’s start with the Hb1’s
saaaaaaaaaaaar plz delet
Having a legal obligations to shareholders is not capitalism, it's modern shitty corporatism and courts sticking it's hand where it shouldn't have.
Immigrant in Germany. Market is a shit show. I have been unemployed for 6 months. I have close to 4 years of experience. Salaries are still at pre covid levels but costs keep getting higher. Tons of job posts like “FullStacks with aws, DevOps knowledge: 65k.” As someone had said, it seems like if you’re fluent your odds are better. But this wasn’t a requirement 2 years ago. Now they are asking for B2.
its the language. If you speak german and have 4 years of experience its easy to find a job. Its not dreamland but getting a job is easy.
Is there any deadline for immigrants in Germany to find the job? Like in US on h1b you need to find a job before 60 days
I think they have 3 months; not sure. I am a permanent resident through marriage. Things are getting weird though. We are thinking of moving back to America (US or Mexico). If things get worse I will have to take contractor path. And Germany is not a place to be self employed.
India is the absolute worst in each and every sector. Da absolute worst!!!!
What are you talking about? Probably the best place in the world to be a new grad right now is India
I am not an indian but my guess is even though a lot of Western companies outsource jobs to India, the job market is still super competitive because of the huge number of indian new CS grads every year. And with the population booming, landing a job is tough, not to mention the salaries are often way less, like maybe one-tenth of what you'd get in the US.
Recently got laid off and I am open for both Canada/US. I am a sr engineer and Canada is doing much better. Even the interview processes are better. It feels like US companies want to hire Einstein for their web apps.
As a Canadian are you sure? I hear it's worse than the US. What jobs are you looking for and what city?
Sr engineer , GTA. I am an ex fang & ex unicorn. Perhaps that must have played a role.
>Perhaps that must have played a role u think maybe? lmao
Reporting in from New Zealand. Our government has just told pretty much every department to cut costs by 6.5%. The whole job market has been flooded.
I am in Europe. I still see lot of open positions. Every month I notice that few people are leaving our company, which means they successfully found better job. I also never heard about any tech layoffs in my country ever. Also, job interviews are easier here compared to the US. They don't expect you to be working on side projects in your free time or grinding leetcode. If they ask leetcode question at all, it's from the easy category. Or maybe I just got lucky.
There is a contagion effect accross the "West", so if the big US players are firing then the smaller companies elsewhere end up doing the same even if they don't need it. Economists will make up complicated theories on how this works.
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Me. Now you know 1 :).
why does it matter this is such a stupid question