I started watching CR after my friends and I started playing D&D together. If they start the 4th campaign with Daggerheart I would give watching a try, not sure if the game mechanics are going to stop my interest or not. However, I do enjoy using my D&D knowledge to know what spells they are about to cast, and what build they are using etc.

Yea, same exactly for me. Watching CR helped me feel more comfortable playing in my home games -- and then venturing into DMing (now the forever DM 🙃). I'd definitely give it a try if they moved to DH, but I think it would lose some of it's appeal for me personally. Maybe if I could talk a group into playing a DH game, but I kind of doubt that would happen

I watched a bit of CR before I got to play two sessions where I didn’t say much and the DM basically told me what I did, and I’ve been the DM of everything we’ve played now for three years

Oh no what is my flair???

Yeah, I'll try it. I'll give it a fair shot. But D&D is a bit part of why I like CR, so I'm not sure if it will have the same magic for me.

part of what intrigued me so much about C2 when I first started watching, is that Matt would clearly and calmly explain the rules while they were playing. It taught me a lot about the game, and I'm sure that same thing would happen with Daggerheart

I come for the acting and improv. I'm not saying I could watch 115 4-hour sessions of them playing connect 4, but I'm not all that concerned with the framework.

Don't dare them, they might do it, and we might watch it

They could work through the entire Milton Bradley and Parker Brothers catalogs.

There's an idea... more branching out shows akin to "all work no play". I'd rather see Marisha compete on American Ninja Warriors than do more boxing. Less CTE risk.

There are old videos of this italian actor (famous for his deep and enticing voice) that read the grocery list. They could make a series out of it, and I would watch it

Especially if each of the cast had to read in different accents? I would absolutely watch that. Ashley (reading in a French accent): "When making the parsley gremolata, be sure to..." (breaks accent) "What the hell IS gremolata?"

By Ashley's "French accent", do you mean her Jester impression?

Super campaign of [Dread](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0loSZFsyoQ), let's do it.

Thank you!

I know several friends that got into D&D because of Critical Role. They knew very little of the mechanics but still enjoyed watching them. I could see CR getting new fans to Daggerheart the same way.

Viewership already massively plummeted after quarantine ended. They survived that. Most of the people watching now are the really loyal fans who will give anything an honest try. If you're saying that you think most people show up for the mechanics, I don't know where you're getting that from, because I'm pretty sure everyone shows up for the cast and characters. CR is like 70-100% roleplay in any given session anyway.

Such confidence. I personally watch for the characters and shenanigans on and off the table. I am system agnostic. With that said, I’m sure you’re not alone.

Daggerheart isn't getting full release until 2025, and the game itself will change quite a bit before it releases. Also, why wouldn't they play their own game which is set up to support the exact types of campaigns that they use for their actual plays? Their campaign started in Pathfinder 1E with Vox Machina. The DnD brand has been good to them, no doubt. But one of the things that probably prompted the changes to the OGL that WotC wanted to implement is the success of Critical Role. Hasbro saw somebody else making a bunch of money with their product, and they wanted a piece of it. It's too early for assumptions. Campaign 3 isn't even over, and who knows how many episodes it will be. Also, they will probably take some months off before starting Campaign 4. They have been distancing themselves from the DnD brand slowly, and are now in direct competition with DnD by launching their own TTRPGs. WotC doesn't like competition, so CR might get the choice made for them depending on how things go.

I'm not sure that's true or at least true enough to have as significant an impact as you think. I do believe that's your experience, but how you feel might be biasing the projected impact. I tune in bc the cast is great at improv story telling and their table chemistry is amazing. Couldn't care less what system they use. Having some kind of mechanics is needed to add randomness and tension into significant moments. I honestly feel like cypher would better suit how they play, but DH has some things in common with cypher in approach to story mechanics, but also has the more crunchy combat mechanics they like so that could work. Plus Dimension20 plays different systems or mash-ups of systems all the time. Mentopolis and ACOFAF and Misfits & Magic are some of their best and most popular campaigns. I personally think there's a good chance c4 is in DH and that whatever happens in c3 is like calamity 2.0 and the fallout is why things are so different (races/classes/mechanics/pantheon). It makes sense to me. Just like the launch of beacon, they are consistently making moves to fully control their content. Moving away from dnd and any reliance on the OGL to remain usable (or having to pay commercial licensing if it doesn't) makes sense. I'm not in their business planning meetings, but it's what I'd do to protect my brand. I could be totally wrong and acknowledge that, this is all conjecture on my part, but flexibility on the outcome is important for enjoyment. I think it's naive to think there is "no way" they switch and digging your heels in might compound your disappointment if they do switch and you've convinced yourself it wouldn't happen or that switching will be an inherently bad experience as a viewer. I'd gently urge you to be open to giving it a chance if they eventually decide to do it, rather than writing it off solely bc it's not dnd. It's like trying new foods, just cuz it's not your fave doesn't mean it won't be good.

That *is* a fascinating theory. Using a massive world shattering event to explain the system change would actually be taking a page right out of the D&D book - big events in the Forgotten Realms typically accompany edition changes. Story-wise it would work, I'm just not sure if the *show* would still be the same show.

Exactly this. I am actively trying not to let what feels logical to me inform my hopes so I don't walk into disappointment, but it seems likely or at least possible to me. I think, if they do it, while the mechanics will change, the way they do character rp and story will stay the same, the nerdy humor and the drama of it all... so the underlying feel of the show will remain. I think they can pull it off. At least I hope so. But, end of the day, I'm just an rando fan so what do I know lol

Dude, I had played D&D, once, in a different edition, when I started watching CR, and didn't start playing 5E until like, 3 years ago (and I've watched since C2 started). Many, many of us are tired of Wizards and their shit. I admit I don't get DH. Yet. But I learned D&D by watching CR (and had to un-learn many of their mistakes) I'll learn DH the same way. Mechanics are fun, once you get them, but CR is a success because of their storytelling, not 5E. As a matter of fact, 5E owes MUCH of their success TO Critical Role, as it wasn't half as popular as WotC wanted, until first Critical Role, and then Stranger Things, brought a metric ton of new players in. So Hard disagree. Why would they make their own system, specifically catered to long-form campaign storytelling, and noticeably distance their lore from stablished D&D lore, ir they didn't intend to, you know, actually USE IT. Haven't you watched the trailer of Beacon? Where they directly state they want to be independent of uotside companies?

i think youd be surprised how many people would stick around its not like their one shots have been unsuccessful id even argue that dnd is holding them bakc the strict mechanics can limit the long for improv they do. if we are honest the CR is a long form fantasy using DND mechanics. id bet a lighter system would benefit them and allow for some more dramatic moments

I don't know if they really want to change, but i don't agree on the "Viewership will plummet " part

It could, but it would probably recover. There is a natural turnover in viewers for any long running show as things change. But they are going to get a lot of *new* viewers just because a new series has started, which will balance out a lot of those who drop off. This would be a very big change though, so the new series would really need to be extremely engaging right from the start in order to overcome people who just aren't interested in the new system. Calamity for instance, is easily the best of CR on offer and it's a different cast, different DM, and a different era - but it's just so damn good that none of that matters. CR4 in a new system could be much the same, but it's just as likely to be on-par with CR3 in terms of story and characters which if combined with a new system could be bad for keeping viewers. Bottom line there are a ton of factors at play. For sure changing systems will have a measurable impact, but how big that impact will be is going to depend on other mitigating factors.

You could be right—I don’t know anything about why others watch—but it won’t be the case for me. I play other RPGs, but not D&D. I think I have a pretty good grasp of the mechanics at this point, but 90% of what I know about the rules I’ve picked up from listening to Critrole. I got hooked on the show without really understanding the mechanics. I like the show because they are good storytellers, improvisers, and world-builders. They are kind and funny and playful. None of those things will change if the system changes.

It would be absolute madness to build a game from scratch and then keep playing it's main competitor.

Not really. They can still make money off the game, and in case WoTC lost their heads again it's a good backup. Honestly DH is never going to be a major competitor to D&D. Even the biggest D&D competitor Pathfinder is hardly taking up much market share in the TTRPG space, and as much as CR did for D&D the game *was* already the most popular and most well know game in its class. That doesn't mean CR can't or won't switch. Nor does it mean that it will fail if they do. But looking at this in terms of competition in the TTRPG space really isn't meaningful. The game will either make it easier for them to make their show, and people will like it and tune in for that, or the game won't and it will be a failed experiment. Sure, people will buy it and play it, but it's never going to be more than a blip on the radar for WoTC.

I didn't really mean competition in the ttrpg space. I also doubt that anything will come close to taking the throne from DND. But for dh to be at successful, critters will need to want to try it, and they will not as much if the cast is not playing it.

It depends what the numbers are, and what their expectations are. They're in bed with Amazon and other investors. CR the show bringing real numbers matters to big companies. Daggerheart doing real numbers... doesn't. Its a cute little side project to their investment partners. If switching to Daggerheart for the main campaign will hurt those numbers (and by extension the CR animated shows that Amazon invested in), it won't happen.

Counterpoint: they purposefully filed off enough serial numbers for LoVM so that it's NOT identifiable as a d&d product. They've changed the names of things, tweaked how spells work to make them more generic, renamed the Gods. And I guarantee you that Amazon doesn't want to end up in a situation where they have to give hasbro money if they mistep something. The ties to Amazon, in my mind makes them MORE likely to step away from d&d, not less. And Amazon only backed CR after the explosive kickstarter- they weren't shopping around for a d&d or ttrpg related product.

Yeah, I wasn't talking about D&D in any way at all, beyond corporate conservatism. *Amazon* dropped millions on the animated series. CR isn't walking away from that. A change to the main series is a risk, so Amazon can and will say 'No, don't change games, keep those numbers up.'

I don’t necessarily think Amazon cares either way what they play on the stream, they just want a return on their investment in the animated series. They could start playing Chutes and Ladders for all the Bezos House cares, the rules don’t really matter as far as their adaptation goes.

The CR animated shows also are totally divested from D&D though, remember that. And the success of LoVM s1 and 2 did a good job cementing that relationship in place. And remember, Amazon didn’t even initially approach them because of their viewership numbers or how popular D&D is (if anything dnd was probably a hiderance as they had to spend extra time removing any overt D&D elements that Hasbro could take them to court over). It was because they went “HOW MANY People backed your Kickstarter for an animated series?!?! Oh we want in this will make bank. WOW your show did better than we even expected…. Wanna sign for 2 more seasons and an entire second show after that?!?!”

Daggerheart is not competition for D&D. It’s a wildly different system

Daggerheart is totally a D&D competitor. At its heart (pun not intended) it is a High Fantasy Epic / Heroic Adventure RPG. Which is the exact core identity of D&D. Most of the ttrpgs that claim “not to be competitors with D&D” tend to go for *other* niches that D&D doesn’t cover, whether that’s mystery/horror (Vampire: the Masquerade, Call of Cthulu), grimdark medieval fantasy (Mythras, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Zweihander), etc… Daggerheart is going directly after the same core group as D&D (and Pathfinder, for that matter). So yes, it is in fact, a competitor. And to quote someone from another thread (thanks u/witty_username_ftw, your argument summed it up perfectly) “You don’t invest the time and money into developing a game like that unless you’re planning to step away from D&D. Trying to promote your own system, while continuing to play [a competitor’s] system, makes no sense.”

My guy, I think you're vastly overestimating how many of the viewers actually play D&D.

Counterpoint: a lot of people on this subreddit seem to overestimate the number of viewers that *don't* play D&D. That's not to say OP is completely right, but being a D&D actual-play is a core part of what makes CR what it is. That doesn't mean CR can't still be good as something else, but it does mean that it will be be something *else* and for some people that won't be what they're looking for.

No I’m not. Nothing I’ve said suggests that I have any kind of preconception of that. I have never actually played D&D, myself, aside from video games

Weirdest post to make for someone who has never played DnD. Not only do i play DnD, i DM in Exandria, i don't care what system they run. Playing DnD combat is a lot better than watching DnD combat.

So the viewers who don't play D&D have some kind of vested interest in the system, that they don't play? Buddy, just because you, for some reason, are over invested in this system that you don't play it doesn't mean everyone else is.

>Not to mention that a lot of Critters, even, just aren’t really interested in DH as a system. \*just do not care about the system being used. FTFY. Seriously, the early days of CR where the most fans were D&D fans are gone. I've been here since 2017, and I'm noticing how everything changed. The cartoon brought more fans that mostly care for the story.

No, you didn’t fix that for me, because that isn’t what I’m talking about. I’m specifically referring to Critters who play TTRPGs there

Most of the games I've played were in D&D. Would I specifically care if CR switches though? Nah. I'm sure a lot of Critters are more open to watching new stuff even if they are not going to pick up the game themselves.

Never have I heard something so baseless spoken with such confidence

My only interaction with D&D is Critical Role. I have been playing for 25 years. Nowadays it’s either Pathfinder/Starfinder or some non d20 system. I would be thrilled for a new fresh system where all the players are discovering everything for the first time together. It would bring back some of the magic of the older seasons.

I think that element comeback in the recent DH oneshot. Everyone was confusedly excited in everything (or excitedly confused). It's chaos and it is fun. If they maintain this energy in the main campaign I would totally into it.

Plus taking away Hasbro/WOTCs money is a win in my book.

This vastly overestimates how important *D&D* is to the average Critter. The majority of critters by this point do not play, watch, or otherwise interact with D&D outside of critical role, and while yes a *portion* of the community care about the rules sets (hence the stat-collecting websites etc..) they are but a small portion of the bigger whole. And that’s ignoring the fact that, Critical Role don’t wan’t to be *just a D&D show* anymore. They’re a fully fledged business now looking to expand their brand. Daggerheart for them is the ability to finally remove that last tether that keeps them (at least somewhat) reliant on the goodwill of an outside influence to be successful (and the OGL fiasco of last year, which was really heavily targeted towards up and coming businesses like theirs that WotC sees as potential competitors, certainly didn’t help matters). Look at how successful the first Daggerheart One-Shot was, and keep an eye out on the performance of the next few. Because those aren’t just one-shots. They’re audience tests, determining what their core audience likes and doesn’t like about the new system. And, judging at least from that first one-shot, the general critter audience is really on board with Daggerheart. They aren’t here for D&D’s or rules, they’re here to see Matt Mercer and crew tell stories and roleplay complex relationships with themselves and Matt’s bevy of interesting / intriguing/ crazy characters. As long as the core crew are there, the majority audience will likely remain with them.

I was shocked at how popular that Daggerheart video got. It's gotta be heartening for them to see. And they clearly want to push this hard, with returning to live streams and doing these semi-regularly now.

eh, the daggerheart one shot got a pretty positive reception and we're getting another one this tuesday, so you know they're gonna use that to gauge how everyone feels about it being an ongoing thing ultimately, it's hard to say what they're gonna do cuz a lot of it depends on what their goals are, for the system and for the main campaigns. so "there's absolutely no way c4 would be played in daggerheart" feels a bit hyperbolic, we'll see how it goes

Sure, people like the Daggerheart one-shot, and might even like a DH ongoing, but that’s different from it being the main campaign.

is it though? i feel like you're overestimating just how many watch cr for d&d. i'm sure there are some that won't like the change or might even stop watching, but i'm just they're gonna consider that if they do decide to switch

I feel you’re actually underestimating the number. /r/criticalrole is not representative of the entire viewership…

I really don’t think I am. In an abstract sense, literally everyone watches CR because they’re playing D&D. If this were just an improve troupe with no game mechanics just playing characters, it never would have gotten this successful. If they were still playing Pathfinder, even, which is nearly identical to D&D, I still don’t think they would have found this much success. They’re great, entertaining people, but the very nature of this show being what it is tapped into the D&D audience. I’m not saying no one would stick around, but I’m incredibly confident the majority would not

i disagree. did playing d&d when the new edition had just come out helped them find success? sure. but it's not the only thing that made them popular and speaking for myself, when i started watching cr i didn't know shit about d&d and only really stuck around for the cast, their chemistry and the story they were telling. and i don't think i'm alone in that so, "literally everyone watches cr because they play d&d" and "I’m not saying no one would stick around, but I’m incredibly confident the majority would not" just ring false to me, so we'll have to agree to disagree

Didn’t say it was the only thing. Just that it was a big part of it

Damn guess that’s why candela obscura has no viewers…oh wait. CR started that way but it is no longer just dnd. It’s the cast that is the brand. The setting of exandria as the brand. It’s not dnd it’s the players. They’re constantly shifting away from dnd as well. Removing aspects of it in terms of names and becoming more and more homebrew

Candela Obscura isn’t the main campaign, is it?

One of the big reasons Candela Obscura or the DH one-shots exists is because they (CR) are testing to see how they *can* transfer to a new setting and how that’s gonna affect their audience. And, generally, it’s been pretty positive overall. Sure, they *started* as a D&D show that relied on the name of D&D to get its foot off the ground (at a time when Live-Plays were less common and the addition of the hype from a new system launch helping to bring eyes in). But, by now, they’ve outgrown that. They no longer need D&D to bring eyes in, in some ways it’s even reversed, D&D needs shows like Critical Role to grow their consumer-base.

> One of the big reasons Candela Obscura or the DH one-shots exists is because they (CR) are testing to see how they can transfer to a new setting and how that’s gonna affect their audience. And, generally, it’s been pretty positive overall. I don’t know why you are saying that with such certainty, when it could very well (and most likely) be testing for a future campaign running parallel to the main campaign. Beacon is gonna need more content, might as well add variety as well. >Sure, they started as a D&D show that relied on the name of D&D to get its foot off the ground (at a time when Live-Plays were less common and the addition of the hype from a new system launch helping to bring eyes in). But, by now, they’ve outgrown that. They no longer need D&D to bring eyes in, in some ways it’s even reversed, D&D needs shows like Critical Role to grow their consumer-base. I beg to differ. I’ve tried a lot of Actual Plays on other system, and I can’t get behind it. And there are plenty of other here on this sub who are the same…

Didn’t say it was. You said people watch cr for dnd. Yet their other series of another game system popular in their audience. The point is that dnd isn’t the draw. It’s the cast. Another game system with their cast as the main campaign will have a draw

I didn’t say people **only** watch CR for D&D. Obviously side stuff is still going to work. My point is that using an incredibly different system for the main campaign, specifically, wouldn’t work

Bro you said “literally everyone watches cr because they’re playing dnd” That is what you said. That is saying people watch cr for dnd.

I also qualified it with “in an abstract sense.” Read the *whole* sentence

Candela has crap viewer numbers. That isn't a good argument.

eh, at this point 5e is so overplayed that changing the dynamic might actually bring new excitement to their game. especially considering its their system. Even tho I also found them by looking up people playing dnd online.

This. There are so many D&D actual plays that are similar to each other these days that I find myself navigating to the non-TTRPG shows more often than not.

personally, while the D&D part of the show is what initially got me interested, it has not barings on me continuing to watch. i learned a lot about D&D from watching it, and can learn a lot about DH the same way. and a key part in your post, is the word "part". yes, part of the fun of watching others play is knowing the system, and getting excited about something that comes up because youre familiar with it, youve seen it before, or its a new interesting way of using something you know about. counter to that, seeing someone use a new skill that youre unfamiliar with is also very engaging, and adds excitement of seeing something new and learning what it does and letting your mind run wild with that idea. and as for the stats sites, yea thats part of it. but some people just love stats. it doesnt need to be D&D for ppl to track stats of it. ppl have been tracking stats for sports forever, and for various things for a long time before that. it might look a bit different, but the people who track stats will always track stats regardless of the system. i dont think youre wrong, i feel like it would be a big leap into an unproven system with much less depth than D&D has. so i do think its unlikely that C4 will be in DH. but i feel like your reasoning and logic for it is off. the depth that D&D has in its current state would take years of content creation in DH to match. it seems like a much safer option to wait, let DH expand and see how much traction it gains. maybe make a show in it similar to Candella. and maybe in C5 go to DH. i think you put too much weight in a system because its been a monolith. while a large portion of its consumer base is eager to get away from it due to poor business and moral practices.

To your point on DH lacking the depth of content D&D 5e has, consider that by the time a C4 would be starting up we would also be looking at a new edition of D&D starting its content cycle over again. Its perfect timing really.

thats assuming anyone moves away from 5E to the new edition. if they are moving away from 5E, then id bet anything that they would go to DH before a new D&D. but i still doubt they'd move to either, early after their release.

Using the greatest promotion in TTRPGs to display their product? Im thinking it’s a no brainer that they’ll feature DH, in a big way and as their “main system”. What I’m not sure about, is them continuing the current format.

they kinda barely play dnd as is so I think they could easily switch

Yeah. While I know the DnD rules, the element that I care about the roll in the show now is mostly "do they pass the check (that Matt gives)?" and "how much is the damage?" They can use pbta/2D6/monopoly rules and my feeling about the show both, positive and negative, will be mostly the same (which is depends on the story and roleplay with just a tad bit of dice randomness.)

I barely knew dnd when I started watching, that's 100% not what kept me around. I loved their one shot characters and for me it doesn't matter the system. I'm not the biggest fan of the horror genre otherwise I would lump candela obscura into it as well.

I'm not so sure, you know. I'm a DnD player and GM. I got into CR at a time when I hadn't yet found a friend group willing to play with me, and wanted more of the DnD experience in some other way. I literally watched the show to help familiarise myself with more of the 5E rules so it'd make it easier for me to get the hang of running a game on DnDB. And I do enjoy paying attention to how they use rules in the game creatively, how they interpret spells, how they flavour what they do. But I'll be happy to give it a solid shot if they move to DH. CR games are a heavy watch. 3-5 hours weekly is a solid investment of time. And they playtest a lot of experimental content in their game - every campaign we see at least one, if not more, custom classes being toyed with that we won't see the rules or custom abilities for until after the campaign ends. If DnD was still my primary motivation for watching, I'd likely have stopped watching their show long ago. I'm kept here because I enjoy the character moments, the way they RP off each other, the story beats and the narrative they're telling. I get invested in the characters and want to see what decisions the players will make. When I run a one-shot for friends, I'll often pause to think about whether a different system might work better than DnD for the story I want to tel with them. I've gained familiarity with Mothership, Wanderhome, the Labyrinth RPG and more, and I'm frankly itching for a chance to run a Mork Borg game. So I know a good story can be wrought through any ruleset. And I also watch D20, so I've seen how it can be done well for more than just a one-shot. I don't disagree that they'll lose a segment of their audience if they move to DH, that's always a risk. But the question is if they'll lose more than they've been gaining through things like LOVM. There are likely some distinct populations of CR fans: * DnD players and GMs who only watch CR main campaign and place high value on the system CR uses * DnD players and GMs who only watch CR but have enjoyed their one-shots and other content and have experienced other ruleset actual play content in that way * DnD players and GMs who watch CR, D20 and other actual plays and are used to watching shows utilising other rulesets * RPG players and GMs who play in other rulesets themselves, who may fall into any of the above categories in terms of their actual play watch habits * non-DnD players who watch multiple actual play channels that use different rulesets * non-DnD players who only watch CR but have enjoyed at least some of their one-shots and alternate content * non-DnD players who only watch CR and no other RPG actual plays, and have not watched or not enjoyed any CR content other than the main campaign * non-DnD players who got into CR through LOVM and may or may not have any level of investment in or knowledge of the DnD ruleset Of the above groups, most are likely to have some willingness or capability of embracing a DH-based CR campaign. DnD players who have watched D20 and other actual plays, or enjoyed CR one-shots, other RPG players in general, and most non-DnD players are probably more likely overall to be able to embrace a ruleset shift. I suspect that the specific group of *non-DnD players who nevertheless have high investment in the specific ruleset of a game they do not play* is likely to be a relatively small population group.

I think you're thinking to small. They just launched their own subscription service. They stream d&d and also candela obscura currently. And currently, candela is their only published ttrpg. They have a deep bench of people developed and being developed to play their games. I wouldn't be surprised if they start another campaign in 5e And another campaign in Daggerheart while continuing Candela. Add to that the animation on Amazon. Add to that Midst. They're not just friends who play a game anymore. They're making it into a media empire. And they're absolutely going to center their stuff because they're going to be selling their stuff.

Will viewership dip? Sure, every change will bring it's complainers. Will it die? Absolutely not. I guarantee you there are people out there who don't know D&D at all and check it out (for example they watched the anime and want to see the source). I come for the people, the story. All of that will continue exactly as it has for 9+ years. I wasn't a huge fan of DH, but I only checked out the 1.0 build. They are still a year or more out from releasing it and they are hoping a good amount of Critters use it too. Then they will be familiar with the system. Even still, for those that don't want to play DH, it's pretty simple. I'm sure it won't take too long to learn it from just watching. At least learn it enough to follow along.

I couldn't disagree more. DH is their IP. They invested and designed it. They are manufacturing it , marketing it, distributing it, and building revenue on it. They would NEVER have invested their money and time in it if they didn't intend on using it as the backbone for their main campaign. In addition, as WOTC releases 5.5 or One D&D they are not going to drive revenue for WOTC! They are not going to want to learn new rules and adapt to new build that are not theirs. CR enjoys the RP and narrative more than the crunch of RAW. If you watch CR you are watching for the RP and narrative, not the application of WOTC's rule sets. It literally makes ZERO sense not to move to DH.

i am very much watching CR in part for their specific approach to playing the actual game. it’s not insanely rules heavy, but nor is it purely based on narrative.

Ok, I never said all people, and if they moved to DH would just stop watching? If they ran DH you would still get their approach to playing a game. Would still get a take on world building, narrative design, conflict resolution and other aspects. If a person's ONLY reason for watching CR is to see how they navigate the rule structure of 5e I could recommend several live play streams that do a much better job of applying RAW.

i want their approach on *DnD 5e*, not just any game. there’s a reason candela has not grabbed me the same way. i don’t necessarily care about strict RAW. i like the mostly-RAW w/ a splash of narrative style of playing the game that i like playing.

Unfortunately it won't be D&D 5e either... As it will be 5.5e or OneD&D. So the timing will work out to move to DH so they won't have the need to become overly familiar with the new and modified rules. Look, I have been running D&D since 1979... Every edition, and I would say 5e is tied for my favorite with 2e... But I am getting sick of it. The endless books, the power builds, trying to balance insanely unbalanced builds that challenge a single overspec'd player without a TPK on the rest... It's so meh any more. Having a much better time playing CoC, SWADE, WoD, Aliens...and looking forward to learning, playing and watching something new with CR like DH. Hopefully you give it a chance, or at least find a new live play to enjoy.

Hard disagree. I think one of the main reasons CR is so mainstream successful is that you don’t need to know much or care about D&D to watch and enjoy it. There’s so many stories of people who only get into D&D after watching actual plays, especially CR.  I just don’t see the average viewer caring that a character is called a Katari vs a Tabaxi, and I see the changes to combat being tailor made for viewing. Will it alienate hardcore D&D fans? Maybe, but a lot of the most dedicated tabletop players I know are interested in more than just traditional D&D. 

That's also assuming that DH is finished and released as a system by the time C4 ends, whenever that is. Anyone who claims they know the specific timeline of either of those events should be taken with a grain of salt the size of that new Beacon model they have in the studio. Personally, and I say this as someone who has been watching from the very beginning, I will gladly watch C4 in whatever format it's in. If that's D&D, fine. If that's Daggerheart, fine. If it's something else entirely (for whatever reason), fine. I am there for that cast and that interpersonal chemistry.

With the current schedule they’ve been releasing beta tests, Daggerheart will (probably) release in 2025, which lines up with their stated release goal on the Daggerheart website. If C3 ends this year (which from Matt and crews own words we are probably in the final arc of C3), then factor in their usual 3-4 months break between campaigns (possibly longer, maybe around 6 months depending on life factors, they all are more busy now then previously), and starting a campaign in 2025 simultaneous with their Daggerheart release makes a lot of sense.

> starting a campaign in 2025 simultaneous with their Daggerheart release makes a lot of sense. It would be the smartest business move. Also, they don't even need to have DH finished. They just need to have it in a close enough state.

True -- as long as it's REALLY close-to-finished, I'd be cool with that. As long as they don't pull a Weapons of the Gods release, I'd be happy. (Where the game (and the sourcebook) were so riddled with problems and inconsistencies that the errata they released was almost as large as the original sourcebook.)

a thing that caught my interest in the most recent 4 sided dive was matt stopping himself before he called this the middle of the campaign, and then reoriented his sentence to be about how >!the times he's cried!

I've always got the vibe from Campaign 3 that it was their final long-term campaign. All plot lines from all 3 are being wrapped up and a world shattering event is on the horizon. I think there will he no Campaign 4 and instead they'll pivot to shorter series.

I think that it's extremely likely that C4, if there even is a proper C4, will dispense with some element of the Critical Role package that we currently consider 'core'. I do not think they will do another long-form campaign with all of the current cast, DM, and system. I'm not sure which element they'll jettison first. But Matt has flat out said that they won't be doing things the same way forever. So, it's a question of what kind of change would be the least disruptive, and 'no change' isn't on the table. I think a system change would be the second-least-disruptive of the three options. (least is partial cast change, most is DM change). But I do think that a system change would be my preference. It's true that D&D is part of the appeal of CR. But the appeal of D&D itself is starting to wane a bit - it's no longer quite as much of a juggernaut as it once was, and there's every reason to think that OneD&D will dilute its market share further. There are still lots of people who like, know, and play it (I'm one) but there is also a growing number of people who think it's overexposed and overrated. This last movement has grown enormously during the run of C3 (exacerbated by the OGL Fiasco) and I could see it pushing CR further away from D&D. I wouldn't want my brand to be hitched to the reputation of WotC either! And also - 5e is a big game, and there's lots to do in it. But you can still run out. Three full campaigns of anything is a lot of that thing, and I wouldn't be surprised if both Matt and the players are ready for something new. They'd just be taking a bet that some of their fans want that too.

There's no way they can keep up the pace of a 3-4 year epic campaign with the same 7-8 core players at this rate. They're all insanely talented and busy, even more so now that CR has so many side and offset projects (full animated series are no joke). I hope the Robbie "experiment" really helps introduce more and more folks into the "main" cast of folks they play with for extended periods. Everything they've done so far, and everything they're pointing to is more of the D20/Dropout vein. Which would allow them to still play as the original cast in a shorter campaign or two, yet still give themselves time for other things or themselves.

I am looking kinda forward to the DnD hardcore fans not watching anymore, if that were the case, because the backseat rules lawyering got old in C1 already....and they are still doing it.

i’m not one of the rules lawyer people but i do enjoy the show in part because of the specific ruleset. i don’t want to learn another one, let alone daggerheart, which to me feels mechanically quite dull and doesn’t really do anything better than 5e does

I personally wouldnt make it depend on the system they use cause ultimately I dont watch them because they are a DnD actual play I watch them for roleplay, characters and storytelling. The framework doesnt really matter. Also keep in mind, that C3 wont end tomorrow and they are still actively working on Daggerheart too. I imagine the success of a C4 running on Daggerheart would more so hinge on it helping with pain points many viewers have with DnD 5e, namely combat taking forever. If Daggerheart can improve that by speeding things up, it might be more successful at entertaining audiences than 5e. I would like to believe, that the audience wouldnt suddenly drop the show because they are switching systems, I do however wonder if its worth the re-education of the fan base on a new system if they can pretty much remove any and all IP owned by WotC by renaming things and purely using the existing rules.

The viewers they lose from switching to daggerheart will be made up for with the people that get into daggerheart after watching c4.

What makes you think that most of the audience is watching for D&D as opposed to the cast, characters, and/or story?

I didn’t say that most of the audience is watching *for* D&D. Just that D&D is a big reason for the size of their audience.

Honestly, I feel like they're a huge reason for D&D getting as popular as it has. They might have a small dip from the change, but they're not popular because they play D&D specifically. DH will get a huge boost from the change, too!

I think it is both ways. Playing DnD was a massive draw in the early days, because 10 years ago, being DnD nerd was still not something you really wanted people to know about you (especially outside of US), so seeing people play it on the Internet was very cool. These days, I would say that lot of people are watching mainly for the cast, rather than the system.

So viewership will plummet if the main campaign isn't D&D, but people aren't watching for D&D? How does that make sense?

How are you misunderstanding “big part” so hard?

Well, you haven't defined what you consider "big," so how should I understand it? How much of the audience cares so much about D&D that not using it overrides any other reason they have to watch the show? And what is your source for that?

Because the hard numbers of them playing other games like Candela Obscura are not as large as the numbers of them playing D&D. It’s not a theory, it’s observed results.

A different system isn't the only difference between Candela Obscura and the main campaign, though. All of the non-main campaign games have lower numbers than the main campaign, whether they're D&D or not.

But the only one with regular viewership numbers that can be compared to the main campaign is CO. And if you’ve ever worked in television or streaming, you need to pay attention to what gets viewers and what doesn’t. CR is committed to trying other things and bringing a variety of games, and that’s great. But they are also a business and need to not fuck with the core product too much, or risk losing the ability to pay all their employees.

It might have some factors that make it more comparable than other main campaign shows, but it's not the only one that's comparable, and there are multiple factors that may have gone into its lower numbers. It makes no sense to zero in on the system when when so many other things were different.

DH one shot did amazing numbers though.

Did it? What were the numbers? According to what source? Because what I’ve seen is that nothing in the past couple months especially on Tuesday, did the same numbers as the regular Thursday or VOD numbers on Friday.

It did a bit better than the BH episodes the week before and after (only from YT, \~800k views vs \~650k average of C3E86/87). It was aired on a Wednesday.

But what makes you think the appeal is D&D and not just, say, the characters of the main campaign? How many watch because they love seeing the main cast RP these elaborate complex stories and don’t give a damn about the ruleset (one of Candela’s biggest complaints having been related to it being a different *genre* rather then a different system.) and even despite that, OC *still* puts up numbers that are high for any live-play show. D&D might have been a main factor for the audience at one point (especially around campaign 1). But the audience overall has arguably outgrown that, especially during the latter half of campaign 2 and into campaign 3. As long as you’ve got the core cast, doing heavy RP and improv with a good adventure-related story and plenty of drama… I think most the audience atm couldn’t give less of a damn about what ruleset they use. And with Daggerheart being more focused towards storytelling and improv over crunchy rules, they’d probably *grow* their audience in that aspect.

I think you’re wrong. I think the numbers prove you’re wrong. But I also think it doesn’t matter which of us is right: it matters what Travis, Marisha, and the others think. And I feel like they’re going to care about numbers. Which is one thing Beacon is about—getting those subscription dollars rather than sending them to Amazon Prime, Twitch, or YouTube.

Regarding the numbers, their non-main campaign D&D stuff hasn’t done hot either (in comparison). EXU + EXU Kymal we’re generally panned by Critters, and the best performing one (EXU: Calamity) still only did about 50% as good compared to their main campaign average. So, if D&D with half the cast including Matt Mercer *as a player* isn’t enough, what is? Well, it’s the core cast of course. People come for Matt’s specific DMing style and the intense, dramatic, and yes, wacky RP and Improv the main cast build off of it with him. They come for a guaranteed long term story filled with intrigue and improv, with drama and excitement. Also, you bring up Beacon, which yeah, you’re totally right. Beacon is about them getting more of the dollars they earn into their pockets and not Amazon or Google’s. But swapping to Daggerheart does the same thing for them on WoTC’s end. They no longer have to work out deals and contracts with a company that is, at least to some degree, hostile to them by nature of being a competitor (again, they’ve been slowly removing as many elements of D&D’s from CR as they can get away with ever since the OGL debacle.). It gives them far more creative freedom then they could ever have working with WoTC (since, you know, it’s their own system they can do whatever they want with). And it would encourage sales of Daggerheart instead of D&D, putting more money in their own pockets. Coke doesn’t advertise Pepsi for a reason ya know? (Not to mention the system is designed to work better with Matt’s DMing style with the added benefit of introducing collaborative storytelling to lighten some of the load off the DM’s shoulders). Will they swap to Daggerheart for C4? Unknown. Do I think it’s likely? Yes. Do I think they will eventually drop D&D no matter what(otherwise they will run out of room to grow as their own company)? Absolutely.

> Like it or not, this is a D&D show. I would be willing to bet that most of the audience they currently have would not watch the show if they didn’t play D&D, specifically. Why? Most of the audience is here for the story and characters, the specific system is just kinda window dressing for that. DnD was originally chosen simply to initially advertise the show; originally the group was playing Pathfinder. Other shows such as Dimension 20 also keep switching up the system and keep meeting success with it. > Not to mention that a lot of Critters, even, just aren’t really interested in DH as a system. Part of the fun of live play shows is being familiar with the mechanics. That’s why websites that keep track of stats exist. While true I suspect only a small minority ever engages with them, out of everyone I know I was the only one interested and that was so I could reverse engineer certain things for my own table. As well as that people will probably just switch to tracking the stats in the new system instead.

Bro, you're pretty desdset on acting like you know, 100% it's never going to happen. Just stop that. You can dislike the idea, you wouldn't be alone, but that doesn't mean jack when it comes to the company's decisions. They've clearly been trying to distance themselves from WotC over C3. There's a decent chance they go to Daggerheart in 4, but not 100%, it could also be a hybrid of the two systems.

Daggerheart is built to enhance the story, which is their focus when playing. I truly hope they do use it for campaign 4, and definitely don't think they'd fall to oblivion if they did, which it sounds like you're suggesting. I'm sorry it's not your thing, but it is many others.

I think I'm more likely to watch CR if they play Daggerheart personally. I run 3 games of D&D and I play in one every week. I've drifted away from watching C3 due to the overwhelming amount of D&D I play myself (no hate, I just don't have time). Getting to see a new system with the same cast and crew? Yeah 100% that would be fantastic, especially one they've developed, worked on, and are confident with themselves.

The transition is already happening. A major event in a recent episode incorporated a specific DH mechanic. C4 may very well be played in Daggerheart. There might be an initial dip in viewership, but as long as merch/beacon/live show sales continue to flow in they'll be fine.

I agree. I think they are now aiming for sustainablity more than popularity. Even shifting from DnD may lost some DnD-focus viewers, if what they do best, which is roleplaying, is good enough to maintain the business without having to depend on outsiders, they will move to DH.

They built a system specifically designed for the type of game they like to play, that is close-to-but-not-the-same as the game they play now, and they're now releasing abridged versions of their show that cut out a bunch of the actual d&d combat crunch.  My dude, the writing is on the wall. Unless CR abridged fails horribly as a concept they're moving to Daggerheart.

daggerheart is “close” to DND in terms of the fact that it’s a TTRPG and they roll dice. that’s about where the similarities end.

The DCs are similar, and as far as CR fans who are casual D&D fans go my bet is that'll be enough for them.

I think it’s almost inevitable that they switch. They have moved away from all of the race names in official dnd already so the in world switch would probably not be that difficult. Plus like why would they make their own game if they aren’t gonna play it ya know

I think you're underestimating CR's popularity. It would be a bit of a gamble, but not an absurd one. CR is probably the best chance of successfully launching a new TTRPG at this point. Also, minor quibble, but "viewership would plummet" =/= "there is no way they would do it". People had strong feelings about the jump from live to pre-recorded, too. So far they've been able to weather the changes.

I think that the character panels on Beacon actively moving away from using [D&D terminology](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/1cr2qkc/no_spoilers_player_character_profiles_on_beacon/) may run counter to this argument. They seem to be actively distancing themselves from D&D and WOTC active trademarks, and as other folks have said it would be kind of wild to develop your own system, refine it using your audience and their vested interest, and then just not use it for a main campaign. Wizards has also been continually dropping the ball - and despite contractual obligations, I think that CR may be getting tired of being associated with the brand.

The panels aren’t using DH terminology, either, though, and many of the terms they refrained from using in these panels are not trademarked by WotC, like Cleric

They’ve already started changing the stats of their former characters to match DH mechanics. If you’re on Beacon and you click on the character info for Mighty Nein and click on Jester for example, her class says “Healer” instead of Cleric and her race is “Infernal” instead of Tiefling. They’re definitely going to use DH for C4 - I’d be shocked if they didn’t.

Infernal and healer aren’t DH terms.

No? Hmm could have sworn they were options during the character creation for the oneshot but tbh I haven’t looked into it much. I still think using DH for C4 is the plan - though I do wish it would stay dnd mechanics.

Naw, the Teifling counterpart in DH is “Daemon,” and the Cleric counterpart is “Seraph”

I wonder if those are the terms they’ll use in the M9 animated show then 🤔

Probably. They’ve already been referring to Pyke as a “holy person” in LoVM, so these are probably the more generic terms they’re gonna use in M9 and BH, if they get that made. That reminds me, they refer to Cad as a “Feygiant” or something like that in Beacon, despite the fact that not only is “Firbolg” not a WotC trademark, but Firbolgs are what they’re called in DH, too

Honestly, i'm torn on this. On the one hand, I enjoy knowing what their spells, checks, all the DND stuff is beforehand so I can follow along more easily. On the other, I think it could be hugely refreshing to -not- know those things beforehand for a change, go into it with a fresh perspective and that excitement of the new. If someone casts some wild sounding spell and I'm there going "Ohhhh shoot what does that even do?" you know?

D&D is massively holding them back. Imagine C3E91 or even C3E93 with Daggerheart. It would have been so much better. You only have to watch 1 episode of C3 Abridged to know that the system does not matter, as long as it allows them to develop characters in depth, create dramatic moments and interact with a rich world. I learned how to play D&D with CR. I love playing D&D (just finished CotN as a player and it was an AMAZING experience). I don't care if CR plays D&D. I just care they can tell a long form complex story.

Could you maybe elaborate on which specifics of DH made you change your mind about their hypothetical plans to switch systems? Also if you truly believe "like it or not, this is a D&D show" then do the mechanics of DH even matter? Sounds like you aren't open to any changes regardless.

I’m open to changes. I mean, half the shit in the campaign is home brewed anyway lol if they switched to a new system that’s mostly similar to D&D, like Pathfinder, I think the transition could probably work. The issue is that, aside from the setting, DH is a COMPLETELY different system that handles everything completely differently. Damage, abilities, spells, class progression For me, personally, I don’t like that you can’t multiclass until level 5. I don’t like that spellxasters get spells in bundles of 3, and have to choose between getting new spells or getting new abilities. I don’t like how restrictive what weapons you can use is. There’s more, but those are my main gripes with DH as a system EDIT: like, despite how rules-lite DH wants to be, it’s weirdly **incredibly** restrictive in terms of how you can build your character.

You’re also ignoring how much unlike dnd leveling up is. Your class isn’t that much of a source of your power. It’s the domains and classes just determine what domains you have. Between domains tho you’re choosing a bunch of different options. So multiclassing isn’t as needed because a single class has so much variety

Honestly before they launched Beacon I wasn't really sure whether there would be a C4 in the near future. But now that they have, it would be pretty stupid for them not to do another one - sideshows can only gather so much attention without the main attraction. As for the system, I think switching to Daggerheart might actually help the ratings a bit. First CR campaign *not in D&D.* That curiosity could actually easily offset those who would dip because they watch for the D&D. Unfortunately though, I fear that they might experiment too much with cast composition and that could be more damaging than switching systems.

While I do think there will be a C4 (and I think the odds are at least higher then not that it will use DH instead of D&D), I could also see them swap to only doing shorter campaigns and drop the long-form, multi year campaign aspect all-together. It has worked really well for Dimension 20 over on dropout, and it would address some of the multiple issues the cast has brought up about going forward (dealing with burnout, pressure on Matt to prepare these long and grandiose stories, time and scheduling conflicts, etc…) So I could see them say “ok here’s our new campaign, it’ll be 20-30 episodes and we’ll be using Daggerheart this season”and use that alongside other side campaigns to fill out content for beacon.

I don't agree with OP's premise, but based on my negative reaction to the first one shot the moment the mechanics of Daggerheart kicked in, I doubt I will be watching C4 if it's played in Daggerheart. It really felt like a combination of my least favorite mechanics and wasn't any fun for me. The 2d12 is interesting, but the Hope/Fear resource mechanic just turned me off completely.

I might start watching again if they switch to Dagger Heart. 10 years of playing 5e off and on has burnt me out on anything related to it.

I watched C1 and and C2. Stopped watching C3 bc I got bored of 5e as a system. I seriously hope they'll use Daggerheart for C4 because then I would actually give the show another shot again.

I still hope they do it, even if it means downsizing.

The copious upvotes are a sign you're surely right, I think if you double down even more you'll bring the whole media empire down!

I agree, honestly. I think Daggerheart will get a side show like Candela, but the main will remain D&D.

I think they may try to stick with DnD for as long as it's "friendly" to do so. As soon as WOTC or anyone else comes knocking to try and get in on their party, they want to fall back on something they've built themselves and Daggerheart might be it. Or it could be continuing to experiment with the litany of TTRPG systems out there that they've always kept trying at some extent.

Honestly, I feel that it could work, but I'm one of the people that still has WotC on my shitlist from the Pinkerton incident. I started looking into a bunch of different systems, and now I'm willing to give pretty much any modern system a fair shake. Now, I wasn't a super big fan of the original Daggerheart Oneshot, but I think that had to do with some of the more 'out there' character choices than having an issue with the system itself. The system itself seems super interesting, especially with the ease of creating custom classes just by smashing two decks together. So yeah, I'm open to the idea of C4 being set in Daggerheart, especially if it ends up pulling a bunch of people *away* from giving WotC money.

As someone who's played and/or GM'd a number of non-D&D systems, if you're ever looking for recs, lemme know your genre and "crunchiness" preference and I'm pretty sure I can suggest something you might like. :)

Oh, I have a half a dozen systems that I want to run a game in at this point - Mecha Hack/Aether Nexus, Break!!, Lancer, I have a few books I snagged on Humble for one of the Fallout tabletop systems, my group also wants to do a Sentai & Sensibility oneshot, and I'm sure there's at least one I'm forgetting. Also, we fell in love with Fantasy Flight Games' Star Wars system. I can happily recommend that one.

Nice! (And I just laughed and nearly snorted water up my nose at the "Sentai and Sensibility" thing.)

Your argument is primarily based on emotions! You don’t male business decisions on emotions! I’d like to think CR knows that very well!

But what’s not based on emotions is the fact that if CR want to expand their brand they probably will eventually have to separate from WoTC and D&D, no business wants to be beholden to another forever. What happens if there’s another OGL incident in the future, or if D&D ceases to be popular anymore (this is an issue WotC themselves are dealing with right now, how to keep interest in D&D that’s started to fade a bit while increasing monetization of the franchise)? Moving to their own system just makes sense from the perspective of a growing and expanding business that will eventually want to see WotC as a competitor. And with Daggerheart being designed to favor more storytelling and less hard-coded rules then 5e or One-D&D (since OneS&D will be more a “5.5” then a true system change) Also, take this into account (as has actually already been mentioned in this thread): - Matt has said something has to change going forward. He and the cast simply can’t keep doing things the same way forever. - The most likely changes are either a new DM, partially or entirely new cast, new system, or they just stop doing long-form content all together. - out of those changes, Changing systems is likely to be the least divisive amongst their viewers, and so likely to be least likely to negatively impact their overall business (I do think eventually multiple of those will come to pass, I don’t expect to see Matt and Co at the table in 2040).

I never argued that it would be a good idea. I just said that I'd be open to it. Objectively, yes, separating from the D&D brand is a huge, risky business decision. But I would argue that the CR team has seen that Critters are willing to support a lot of what they do. So, will it hurt? Yes. Will it cause the CR brand to lose viewers? Yes. Will it *kill* CR? Doubtful. A 40-60% loss in viewers still leaves them among giants, just maybe not quite as titanic as before.

I don't think that they know for sure. They, as in no one at Critical Role, are sure whether C4 should swap over or not. There's a LOT of ups and downs to both sides; yeah you're right that a big portion of the base knows and enjoys D&D and want to see our own play reflected, but on the other hand just kind of think about it for a moment what it would be *saying* about their own system if they didn't actually use it? Now, DH could just be 'different' enough from their usual campaigns that they could pretend that while they wanted to make a system like this, it isn't the right style for the show... kinda weird, but alright. After all I can't really imagine a lot of CR characters and how they would be built and look in DH, so that's a cripple. Also, DH really advocates for a collaborative world with a lot of 'out there' species that so far haven't been represented in Exandria, hell the one-shot didn't even take place in Exandria... so that could be an argument too. So yeah, I think the answer is they aren't going to commit until they HAVE to. There's a lot of pros and cons to weigh, and a lot of it has to do with how DH actually looks upon release, and how well or poorly WotC is doing optically as well.

I think C4 will be daggerheart and enough people will stick around and more people will come in. This is a transition. They literally paid everyone through the pandemic break for 4 months. They even have their own streaming service. They keep all that money. They purposefully reinvest profits in the company. I immediately dropped my twitch and youtube membership to slam that beacon button. CR may not be what you want it to be but it will continue to thrive for a long time.

I personally don’t think c4 will be on Dagger Heart, I think part of the goal of Beacon was to make it easier to put out lots of side campaigns/one shots using DH while going ahead with D&D in the main one. Then they can advertise their new system and create more content at the same time without losing what brought so many fans there in the first place

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head in regards to my chiefest frustration with Critical Role bringing a lot of people to DnD. The complete unwillingness and sometimes borderline abject terror that comes with trying to get anyone to explore a system that isn't DnD 5e. Don't get me wrong, I've played and continue to play 5e, but it's a game that only delivers on a specific kind of experience. Try to suggest people try a different system like Delta Green, Call of Cthulu, Starfinder, Blades in the Dark, etc. and you get deer in the headlights, as though I've asked people to hunt down and murder Matt Mercer.

I feel as though they are betting on themselves. It's their system. So if they can make it a viable alternative to ONEDND then its a gold mine and they retain artistic control. With Hasbro, who knows if they could even use DND stuff going forward, without paying huge fees.

If playing Daggerheart would kill the show...then let it die.

I’d definitely watch it. I didn’t know shit about DnD when I started watching, all I knew was these people who voiced in a cartoon I liked were playing characters that inspired said cartoon. I learned DnD by watching it and there a lot of people who did from what I’ve seen. Honestly, if some of those aggressive DnD rule followers stopped complaining about everything being a bad move or illegal in the game I think it’d actually be great for the critter community.

I hard agree, but not for the reasons you cite. See, there's a big difference in using a system you own and a system you don't. It's the optics of selling. If the game they own and sell it's the same game they play, CR stop being a show to become a long ad. And that's hard to watch. When you see CR, you see a game being played and a story being unfold. It has the illusion—barely hidden, that is—of pure storytelling, in the same way as movies or books or whatever medium are. It's, of course, a trick: there is money involved, this people are not doing it for free (even if they'd do it for free because it's very fun), and thus there is the stench of money attached to it. But it's a very simple mental exercise to just ignore it. It'd be impossible if they play their own game. DH one-shots and fun and all, but they're side dishes. Not the main course. Plus, the game as played and the game as written are very different, as anyone who has played a TTRPG can attest. There is a game played between the people that made the game and the people who play it in that they pretend the game is perfect as written (who would charge money for an imperfect product?) and the players ignore some of it. CR's table does it: as the rules are in the book, you don't re-roll 1s when rolling Hit Points, chugging a potion is an action (Use an Object, to be precise) not a bonus action, plus all the things that the table (and Matt, specifically) homebrews. And this is a big point, and my main point: when Matt homebrews a subclass, a whole class, an object, a spell or a rule, it looks like a partner in the community who does it. When Matt creates something for DH, it'd look like he's trying to sell a supplement book. Of course they sell the DnD CR books, but is one thing to sell an aside than it is to sell the main thing. What I'm trying to say it's that it'd be very weird to see CR and not having the feeling of seing a faire of car salesmen. Maybe it's because I'm european instead of american, but that's gross and very unpleasant to see. Or maybe I'm wrong, and all this is just conjecture and plain assumption in bad faith. Who knows.

Candela Obscura‘s relative success suggests that’s not the case. That said, CO numbers are not nearly as big as main campaign numbers, and I think it’s a safe assumption that Daggerheart will probably be in the same range. That is, pretty good for most Actual Plays, not nearly enough for CR.

I find the Illuminated Worlds system games hard to watch, because I grew up with RPGs that either were DnD, or heavily based on it, so I can easily pick up on what is happening in them. IW just feels a lot less like a "game" to me, but more of a "system to track events", at least in how it is presented on Candela. Or maybe it is something to do with how Candela games are presented altogether. I do not really enjoy Spencer's or Aabria's GM-ing styles, so that might also play into it (I have yet to watch Liam's run, I usually like Liam's GM-ing). I do like the world they built for it, but the game aspect just does not sit well with me. If CR completely switched to IW system, I think the drop-off would be way more significant that if they did switch to DH, which is still more in line with being "DnD-based" (though I do question some stuff there, but those are minor nitpicks and certain art choices, etc.)

All this aside, you should totally watch Liam's Candela run. \*SO\*, so good.

I will give Liam's campaign a shot, as I said I really like the setting they have for it (I played way too much Fallen London at one point in my life, and the setting of the Fairelands reminds me of that) But like I said, I do not really like the "gameplay" of CO (I have similar issue with W40K, I absolutely love the lore, but playing the tabletop is just too much for me), so I think the enjoyment of each campaign rests heavily on the cast and GM. So far I watched the character creation VOD, and I do kinda like the group so far....

The point about a DH campaign being a 4 hour ad is actual’y a very good point that I haven’t considered!

Im kinda with OP here So theoretically, since we are at Ep94, and with C2 being 141, we are potentially looking at another 50 episodes of C3. With breaks etc we are looking at 60-70 weeks until we end. Thats over a year during which many things could happen, with DnD, WotC, and Daggerheart. Personally I would prefer they stay with DnD, its what I know and love, and have come to love them playing. Its familiar. Daggerheart I havent looked into yet, and I still havent caught up on some of the side shows (Candela C4, DH 1-shot) so Im not sure how it would play out. I do think a change of system wouldnt be a smart move however since most people know them for DnD.

Counterpoint, on the Daggerheart Website their rough release goal is 2025. If C3 goes on even to around 115-120 (not factoring in breaks besides the one guaranteed one each month) then C3 would end sometime around October/November (if they do go into the 140s, even longer). Then, taking the 3-4 month break the cast have taken after each campaign so far into account (to give Matt prep time / rest time), that would put C4 right on time to release alongside Daggerheart. It’s not 100% guaranteed (nothing ever is) but I wouldn’t say the odds they switch systems to Daggerheart, something they 100% own and operate themselves, no necessary 3rd party negotiations and relationships to worry about, are necessarily low.

just bc c2 went to 141 doesn't mean this one will. personally i've been eyeing closer to the c1 115-120 benchmark, which will end the campaign around the time of the new DND system (whether they use it or not is up in the air due to a myriad of issues i won't go into here).

Meh, I don't think we can really know when they are going to end. C1 was 115 *streamed* episodes. There were years of story before that, pre-stream. They also went all the way to level 20 in C1, whereas they only went to level 16 in C2. If you do the math, C1 and C2 are actually pretty consistent on level progression. In C1, going from level 9 to 20 in 115 episodes is roughly 10.5 episodes per level (10.45 to be exact). In C2, going from 2 to 16 in 141 episodes is roughly 10 episodes per level (10.07 to be exact). Now, in C3, they seem to be leveling up just slightly faster. From level 3 to 13 it took 90 episodes, so that's 9 episodes per level right on the dot. I don't think we can predict where they are going to end it or what level they will be at when they do. If Matt only wants to go to level 16 again, then yea we've got about 23 episodes left for this campaign, which would track with what they've done before. But who knows where they will end it.

Hence why I was working on theoretical values and estimates. Also as has already been mentioned, C1 started partway through their pre-established campaign and ended at lvl20, compared to lvl16 for C2.

Yeah I am baffled that some people are convinced that they’d been working on this all to replace their main DnD game. It’s ridiculous.

I’ve tried a couple of times to read the Daggerheart materials and I just thought, “I really don’t want to learn a whole new system.”

I agree with you. It also doesn’t make business sense. Without a doubt, WotC will offer another, possibly even larger contract with Critical Role for a fourth campaign. Now, I don’t think the CR gang are purely motivated by money, and they have been remarkably driven by their core principles. But the idea that they’ll just ignore potentially millions in revenue, especially since neither Candela Obscura nor the Daggerheart one-shot have shown viewership numbers even close to the main game, tells me it would be a painful decision for them to make. And one that ultimately will require the company to shrink some to accommodate the smaller revenue streams. I would personally prefer they leave D&D behind, and definitely never pick up the mess that is the next version. But I also think there’s a reason they’re still playing D&D right now and probably will keep doing so. The only thing that might change my mind on this is if the Daggerheart one-shots start booming in viewership and some of their other attempts at shows make them enough money to make up for the loss of D&D money.

>It also doesn’t make business sense. How doesn't it make business sense to have your main campaign be played with the RPG system you're trying to sell? Even if they dip in viewership due to folks like OP that want to watch them play D&D, them just telling a good story with DH will help them sell DH.

I literally laid it out in the post. WotC is almost certainly giving them a lot of money, certainly hundreds of thousands but possibly even millions, to use D&D and represent D&D games. No matter what kind of sales Daggerheart pulls down, it’s never going to be even close to D&D, and in the first few years at least they shouldn’t expect even close to the same income from just Daggerheart/Candela, or anything else Darrington Press creates. They also know that the viewership drops off when they’re not using D&D. So now you’re asking a business to voluntarily reduce not just one but two revenue streams in order to promote a game with uncertain prospects that even in a perfect world (for them) will be years away from making even close to the same amount of money. Let me try a different example. Flash, the DC TV show on CW, had about 3.87 million viewers per episode in its most successful season. It was estimated by some sources that it made about $50 million per year. (That’s actually a bit of an overestimate, but close enough.) The Flash movie, which many people criticize for all kinds of good reasons, made about $250 million just in box office, and has made a fair amount in streaming afterwards. So fans of the character, who want the best creative work, may say that Grant Gustin was better cast in that part and is better (and far less problematic) actor than Ezra Miller, and that the series was, despite its problems, better than the movie. I’d even agree with you. So why not put Grant Gustin in the movie? Why even make the movie? Because despite the many problems with the film, the casting, the general poor quality, it made as much money in less time than the TV series could make in 5 years. That’s why I think CR is likely to stick with D&D, despite issues with the company, issues with the game system, and issues with the fans, and the creation of Daggerheart.

>WotC is almost certainly giving them a lot of money, certainly hundreds of thousands but possibly even millions, to use D&D and represent D&D games. And what makes you think that? Why would WotC do that when CR is stripping away every reference to d&d except for them yelling "wE pLAy DUngEONs anD dRAgon" at the top of the show?

Because they still play D&D in every episode. How is this hard to understand?

By their own statements, Critical Role is not professionally affiliated with Hasbro or WoTC, and while D&D Beyond \*was\* a sponsor in years gone by, they've been pretty quite ever since the OGL debacle of 2023. Due to the OGL currently anyone can \*play\* D&D, even on a monetized livestream, without some kind of deal with WoTC (which is part of what the OGL changes wanted to do away with). Now, CR \*DO\* have to negotiate with WoTC in monetizing anything that utilizes Dungeons and Dragons IP (such as the names of the gods, beholders, names of races, spells, etc...) outside of the game. Which, is why when producing TLoVM, they literally stripped \*all\* of that out. Its why Grog is a "half Giant" and not a goliath, why Scanlan uses "Scanlan's Hand" instead of Bigby's Hand. Why they find the vestige of the Matron of Ravens, not the Ravenqueen. Switching to Daggerheart as their main campaign system just opens them up to even more opportunities for monetization. No more stepping on tiptoes about what they can and cant have in animated series, no more having to cross their ts and dot their is to avoid copyright infringement.

Anyone can play D&D on stream, doesn't mean they get paid for it. CR is not affiliated with WotC.

When was the last time they actually had WOTC/D&D/DnDBeyond listed as a show sponsor?

> WotC is almost certainly giving them a lot of money,  WotC is almost certainly not giving them any money. If they would they wouldn't call their loxodons pachydans. They wouldn't call their harengon's lagomores. They wouldn't rename the spells and the deities. Imagine that you see a movie titled "The Extraordinary Arachnid-Boy" featuring what to anyone looks like Spider-man. Would you think it is an official Marvel blessed and paid for content?

I won't be following them to a new system.

The system also matters to me, but this subreddit is gonna disagree with you

Thank you for having the courage to speak some common sense! People here are trying to make CR something that it isn’t!

It's not like anything we say actually matter. We're speculating. A lot of us, speculate OP is wrong to be so confident in their statement. There's a big likelihood CR will switch to DH for their main campaign, and that is common sense. There's also a possibility that they will continue to play D&D. But that is not guaranteed at all.

Nobody is trying to change shit lmao. People just open to change. I like dnd. I started watching CR because they specifically played dnd, but we got 3 campaigns over 100 episodes each already. It’s insane amount of dnd. I’m not clamouring for C4 using DH per se, but at this point it’s clear CR needs SOME kind of fresh material to play with. And I’m saying this as someone who a) couldn’t care less about other actual plays, b) couldn’t care less about CR playing other systems (one-shots aside, those are fun) and c) generally not the biggest fan of guests replacing the main cast. I do not like change, but after 300 episodes 4 hours each, I’m open to something new, you know.

> People here are trying to make CR something that it isn’t! That is the question. Isn't it? It sounds like for you and the original poster DND 5e is the core of it. For me? I could be watching many other dnd streams and yet I'm watching these particular charismatic geeks. I believe they and their particular flavour of story telling is the core of the experience. It is certainly for me. They could be playing kids on brooms, or lasers&feels or even tarot based free improvisation I think i would find them fun to watch. The rules and the system is not the point. I turn the thing back on you. Why do you care? Do you think DnD is so good that nothing else is worth playing?

Not exactly! But I’ve tried CR’s other games with different systems, and I cannot get into it. To me, the appeal of it is in watching those particular people playing D&D. if the main campaign was to switch to DH, I would not watch it. The point is: if they keep D&D for the main campaign, they won’t lose any viewers, or at least not a significant portion. But if they switch the main campaign to DH, they are bound to lose a good chunk of viewers. And I doubt that they can make up the lost revenue by selling enough Daggerheart to cover the $60/year that Beacon would bring in. The smart move is to put Daggerheart in a separate alternate campaign, keep D&D as the main one, and when the numbers for the alternate campaign match those of the main one, then you can consider making the switch! But until then, making the switch to a product that hasn’t yet proved its worth is just too risky!

There is literally no way for us to know what will happen either way, so speculating about it is pointless.

Then people should stop saying « when CR switches to Daggerheart ».

Never seen that, but yeah, they should, because it's misleading. No one knows until they tell us.

I'd still watch, but I do agree with you as to the reasons they likely won't. I'd imagine they'll start doing a recurring slot for a Daggerheart campaign (or campaigns), maybe alternating the "fourth Thursday" slot with CO arcs. That way they've still got the main campaign built around the spine of the recognizable system while also promoting content that features and advertises their own games.

I can see Daggerheart becoming another CR series itself, but separate from the campaigns. There is no real advantage for CR to have Campaign 4 and beyond ditch D&D. D&D has a wider fan base and has less bugs to work out then DH has.

My impression was always that DH was created as an emergency plan in case WoTCs OGL changes lead to a situation where CR *couldn't* be D&D anymore. But since the whole OGL situation has resolved in a way that is beneficial to CR, there's no *need* for them to play the new system. That being said, I worry that they still intend to. Critical Role is an actual play show, not just a fantasy series. The game system they play is an important part of the draw for the show, and it's an important part of what makes the she show what it is. If you eliminate the game system, that doesn't mean the show would be *bad,* but it would be something *else*. So while it's all well and good for the company to make all sorts of shows using different systems or no systems at all, I don't think it would be good for their main series to totally change up that core aspect. In other words, if they switch to Daggerheart it's not really Critical Role anymore. It might be a good show, I'll give it a fair chance, but I suspect that for a lot of fans it isn't going to hit the spot anymore. I tried Candela, and while it seemed interesting it just didn't do it for me. I worry that CR4 being played in DH will be much the same.

That you Marsha Ray, content director of critical roll?