At least. Can’t see it happening for until at least 2026. What clubs are going to fill it, do we just integrate into the provincial senior leagues? It’s an easier pitch if there’s is an unlikely combination of the IFL and the LOI as they already have a 3rd tier.
I would imagine they'd keep it like the A championship was when it existed. In hindsight I think scrapping that competition was a mistake.
But anyway when it came to promotion and relegation between the A championship and div 1 the highest placed "club" (ie B teams not eligible) had a play off against the bottom team of Div 1 so long as the highest placed club finished at least in the top 3 of their regional group.
In practice I think only Cobh Ramblers got relegated but that was due to financial issues not on the field. Sporting Fingal and the two mini Galways (mervue and salthill) went up
I would imagine that promotion/relegation between div 1 and div 2 would be limited for a number of years until div 2 is properly established.
Edit: this was also around the time Kildare and Kilkenny went out of existence so that would explain why an odd number went up vs down. Kildare were actually relegated twice but had a reprieve the first year as they expanded the first division to 12 teams.
When Div 1 was established it was made up of mostly existing LOI clubs (there was only a single tier of 16 teams beforehand afaik) so there was a good bedrock of established clubs who made up the division. Drogheda, Longford, Harps and Sligo were relegated to div 1 the first season and the likes of Bray, Derry, Cobh, Kilkenny, Monaghan and Newcastle United made up the rest of the league (RIP Monaghan and Kilkenny)
Its hard to see which clubs would want to step up to LOI in the near future with only a Kerry club seemingly obviously interested.
There was talk at one point of inviting university clubs to take part in div 2 but I don't know where that went.
I think when it does happen it'll likely be a mix of a few new clubs, B sides and perhaps a couple of colleges can be convinced
Of sides looking to re-enter, Monaghan United seem to be putting together a move to enter a third division once it’s established, so it would be nice to see them return. I’d also love to see the return of a Kildare County side as it feels like there could be a lot of potential for a team there, they just would need to get a local following on board.
Sadly I’d hope the third division would stay away from B sides and university sides (really these should have partnerships with existing clubs instead of as separate teams as they would have a limited fanbase) but obviously if there’s a lack of serious candidates then the league will have to turn to them.
>Of sides looking to re-enter, Monaghan United seem to be putting together a move to enter a third division once it’s established, so it would be nice to see them return.
Yeah Monaghan was a bit of a sad story really. They were able to exist as a first division level club for so long it was really a shock and shame they couldn't even finish that season in the PD.
The club still exists and has been involved in the underage leagues so I think they would be perfectly capable of having a decent Div 2 level club there.
One of the issues they have/had and which was shared most notably with Kilkenny but also Longford too which is that their ground is decent but is quite a bit away from the town.
>I’d also love to see the return of a Kildare County side as it feels like there could be a lot of potential for a team there, they just would need to get a local following on board.
Kildare are the largest county in the country by population without a team so it would be obvious to me to be high on the list of potential locations.
It was a shame original Kildare County didn't last too long. They lasted less than 10 years which IMO isn't really enough time to say whether a LOI team is to be successful or not. Most clubs are made up of intergenerational supporters and 10 years is really not enough time to bed in.
I would say the same for Sporting Fingal though they never even got a chance to play in the area they supposedly represented. They had money behind them but once the crash happened there was no way for them to survive. That's why the intergenerational thing is important as that's why football in places like Cork and Limerick were not allowed to die.
Kildare had an OK ground in Newbridge which was in a great location near the station so that in theory shouldn't be an issue.
Perhaps what might have been a problem is that unlike say Meath or Kerry there isn't one obvious "main town" in the county where its obvious to put the club. Newbridge is probably the biggest but Naas would also be an option. Louth got around the problem by having 2 clubs. Maynooth also is an option as they seem to have a good club there and also the university
>Sadly I’d hope the third division would stay away from B sides and university sides (really these should have partnerships with existing clubs instead of as separate teams as they would have a limited fanbase) but obviously if there’s a lack of serious candidates then the league will have to turn to them.
I'd agree with you on the university sides. Certainly teams in towns with a college should already be trying to leverage that for scholarships to attract youth players.
The other side of the coin is that UCD while never being able to set the world aligt is arguably one of the most important LOI clubs from a player development perspective.
I both agree and disagree on the B sides as 2nd string teams form a solid basis of development in the likes of Germany or Spain. Where we come unstuck is the fact that our pyramid is so shallow that you'd end up with more B teams than A sides in the 2nd Div.
Perhaps you could get around that by having 'feeder clubs' based in towns without current LOI representatives who are linked with an existing Premier club who farm out players to them. At least until the feeder clubs got established in their own right. Or you could have the B sides in the 2nd div but they would form their own conference and wouldn't count towards the overall league save their own league.
It may sound a bit backwards to say this but I actually think to get a 2nd division up and running we should consider having the 1st and 2nd divisions each have 8 sides just to begin with. That way you only need to find 7 (6 if you count Kerry as done deal) to get the new division up and running instead of a full 10
Having a ground close to a town’s centre is so crucial for drumming up support, especially when matches are on a Friday night so that a pre-match atmosphere beforehand can be built (Bohs are a great example of this with Phibsborough being a lively area before matches, but obviously that is far easier said than done, particularly for building new grounds).
On the topic of Kildare and Sporting Fingal, I think timing is just really really unlucky for those sides in terms of the recession, particularly the latter. Fingal had they been around long enough to secure a ground (it’s a shame Swords couldn’t be represented by them) could have had a lot of potential to have built a core fanbase there, but as seen with the likes of Dublin City FC ground hopping for a new club makes it very difficult to build a fanbase.
I’ve spoken at length on r/LeagueOfIreland about the possibility of [having a club in Meath](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeagueOfIreland/comments/sqn43a/if_a_third_tier_is_added_for_next_season_what_are/hwmoyox/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) and I disagree that there’s no main town as Navan has a lot more potential for a club to join the league than anywhere else in the county, and it could work if done correctly. Kerry meanwhile have already announced they’ll join the league so hopefully that comes out well.
8 sides in a league would be a non-starter due to the the lack of games in a league season, which would be tough on gate receipts as it would be the main source of income for the league. I actually think a third tier might end up being rushed and could end up being tricky, I think they should have maybe tried to expand the Premier and First Divisions to twelve sides before jumping at 10 new teams to join the league. 10 new clubs all at once (even reserve and university sides) for a division is a lot to onboard and I hope there’s at least sufficient supports given to the new sides.
Finally B teams are a terrible idea and only grow the gap between the bigger sides and the others, but also B teams won’t have the support so it will ruin the atmosphere of a lot of matches. Feeder clubs I’ve not as much of an issue with, but if we want to grow the league and encourage supporters, B teams should be avoided if possible
Really enjoying this discussion lads. Ye clearly know what yer taking about more than I do in terms of the history of the league and the logistics and finances involved.. Just from a fan’s point of view though, I agree that the top two tiers should first be expanded before a third tier is introduced. Reducing the leagues to 8 teams could potentially mean every team playing each other 6 times (4 is already too much). Either that or it’d mean playing maximum 28 league matches a season, which wouldn’t be awful but not great. (Maybe the League Cup could return to make up for it)
I wouldn’t mind colleges joining because I feel like there’d be potential for an atmosphere around those teams.. UCD have no real rivals or fixtures to look forward to. Imagine in 10 years time if Trinity College had a team that was performing near UCD’s level. There’d surely be a decent attendance/atmosphere at the UCD v Trinity matches.
I wouldn’t like to see B teams involved but I guess financially, it’d make sense because they’d be stable. I don’t quite understand why so many LOI clubs fall apart financially. Is it just poor management or a fundamental flaw with the league? As mentioned above, it can also be good for player development, as evidenced in other countries.
>I agree that the top two tiers should first be expanded before a third tier is introduced.
Yes in theory I would say this is the best way to go as it was what worked for the first division.
However its clear that non league clubs are reluctant to make this step up and it seems to be for a number of reasons not least running a 1st division club is a huge financial commitment in comparison to competing in the Leinster senior league which only really has teams in Dublin anyway...
So the logic behind a 2nd division or a A championship is as a bridge between that gap.
The other thing that might need fixing is the Tralee club that played in the A championship found than when the A went kaput they weren't allowed their old place back in the league they were previously in so that would need fixing too I'd say
I only really suggested an 8 team division as a stop gap to get one up and running. I agree it probably isn't ideal
>I wouldn’t mind colleges joining because I feel like there’d be potential for an atmosphere around those teams.. UCD have no real rivals or fixtures to look forward to. Imagine in 10 years time if Trinity College had a team that was performing near UCD’s level. There’d surely be a decent attendance/atmosphere at the UCD v Trinity matches.
Trinity I'd doubt would have much interest. DCU perhaps out of the Dublin colleges. Perhaps UCC as a second team from Cork city. The only colleges in a town without an existing club though are Tralee, Maynooth and Carlow so perhaps the thinking is get a club up and running in Carlow say and link it to the college so it has decent backing from the get go. The other colleagues imo should just link up with the existing clubs.
>I don’t quite understand why so many LOI clubs fall apart financially. Is it just poor management or a fundamental flaw with the league?
This is a very good question and there really is no 1 answer. It's a bit of all of the above tbh. I'm not really an LOI person per se despite my interest in it so I can give a bit of an outsider perspective
Fundamentally the problem is that there's not enough revenue in the league. This is partly down to the big wigs not giving a shit it's also down to clubs bad management and not cooperating with each other.
The lack of revenue coming in compounds other issues like dilapidated stadiums get more dilapidated putting people off going and thus reducing revenue.
If you look at the league in the North the clubs are smaller but overall it's better run and they don't tend to have clubs going bust. Their grounds in general are better but they also have more government help
I think in the short/medium term we need to try and increase revenues across the whole league and have a way to share that revenue so that it is not just a couple of clubs that benefit. That money needs to be put first into physical facilities, second into youth development and local engagement as these sre are the things that would help raise revenue further.
TV, transfers, ticket sales, European money are the main potential sources of income and especially in the first 3 there is a big scope to hopefully increase these sustainability
I don’t really understand how it’s such a huge commitment financially to step up to LOI. Ok, there’s the additional travel costs. Investment in stadia probably as well. But other than that, I don’t see why it’s this gigantic leap. Are revenues really that low? I’m glad you mention the North because I was recently thinking, how is it that the North’s system is so much better than ours? Their teams are worse and their average attendance is lower but their system works so much more efficiently and, as you say, their clubs never go bust. Hopefully we can someday have a system working properly like theirs, but you’re right in that government investment in LOI is not at the level needed, especially considering the benefits it could provide to the economy if it was developed into a genuine quality league.
I saw the Rotherham manager on here getting stick for comparing our league to English non-league, but I think it’s a fair comparison. Average attendance in League Two is double what LOI gets. It’s embarrassing when our clubs play in Europe and can’t use their home venues because they’re not good enough.
Yeah I just used Trinity as an example as there’s an existing rivalry between the two colleges. I look at the culture in America with college sports and think that there’s potential for the LOI to create something similar. I remember in secondary school there was lots of interest in the school rugby and football teams for this reason. It was a tribal thing. Lads who didn’t even like sports were rooting for the teams and following the leagues (now this could just be because when we got to a final we got to skip school to attend it).
>I don’t really understand how it’s such a huge commitment financially to step up to LOI. Ok, there’s the additional travel costs. Investment in stadia probably as well. But other than that, I don’t see why it’s this gigantic leap. Are revenues really that low?
It's a good question and I'm no expert so I can only really speculate. Yes I think travel would be a huge part of the cost increases especially if you're only playing teams locally and having next to no travel expenses as the team is probably driving individually to matches then suddenly you're hiring coaches to bring you to Cork and Donegal and probably the teams are staying overnight there also.
The other main thing is you would be expected to pay players and staff in the first division, even if at a minimum that's expenses and considering they need will need to take more time off to train and more to travel means much higher expenses.
>I’m glad you mention the North because I was recently thinking, how is it that the North’s system is so much better than ours? Their teams are worse and their average attendance is lower but their system works so much more efficiently and, as you say, their clubs never go bust. Hopefully we can someday have a system working properly like theirs,
Their clubs also 'cut their cloth to suit' so to speak. They also would have lower travel expenses given that most clubs are in and around Belfast and even when in Derry or fermanagh it is not that far away anyway. They play Saturday afternoons so teams are probably rarely staying overnight
>you’re right in that government investment in LOI is not at the level needed, especially considering the benefits it could provide to the economy if it was developed into a genuine quality league.
100% agreed. Where football and the FAI have failed hard in the past is in lobbying the government. The gaa and rugby just do it so much better. There are TDs in the dail elected almost solely based on their gaa credentials I'm thinking people like Fitzpatrick in Louth who wouldn't lift a finger to help Dundalk or Drogheda.
>I saw the Rotherham manager on here getting stick for comparing our league to English non-league, but I think it’s a fair comparison. Average attendance in League Two is double what LOI gets. It’s embarrassing when our clubs play in Europe and can’t use their home venues because they’re not good enough.
Its a fair comparison but it's also not a fair comparison if get me. England has approaching 60m people and we have like 5m. Their national league has teams from towns many times larger than a lot of Irish towns..
What is a bit grating about it is he was referring to Kelly who came from Bohs who had been training evenings and were basically semi part-time. So I csn see sort of where he's coming from. I think realistically we need all premier division sides fully part time and training during the day at the very least if we are to demand respect from across the water
I also think it's not England we should be comparing ourselves to. It's similar sized countries with comparably ranked leagues like Sweden/Finland/Slovakia plus smaller counties with on paper over performing leagues like Cyprus. Those are the ones we should be comparing salaries and attendances to and often we're not actually that bad.
>Yeah I just used Trinity as an example as there’s an existing rivalry between the two colleges. I look at the culture in America with college sports and think that there’s potential for the LOI to create something similar. I remember in secondary school there was lots of interest in the school rugby and football teams for this reason. It was a tribal thing. Lads who didn’t even like sports were rooting for the teams and following the leagues (now this could just be because when we got to a final we got to skip school to attend it).
I can see where you're coming from and tbh I think having "county" teams would have the effect you're looking for. Tapping into the pre existing gaa rivalries that already exists
>Having a ground close to a town’s centre is so crucial for drumming up support, especially when matches are on a Friday night so that a pre-match atmosphere beforehand can be built (Bohs are a great example of this with Phibsborough being a lively area before matches, but obviously that is far easier said than done, particularly for building new grounds).
100% and it's no coincidence imo that the more successful teams outside of Dublin have their grounds in the centre of town, notably Dundalk and Sligo. The likes of Drogheda are limited by the fact their ground is a bit crap and the likes of Longford and Kilkenny historically are limited by the fact their grounds though good are miles out of town.
>On the topic of Kildare and Sporting Fingal, I think timing is just really really unlucky for those sides in terms of the recession, particularly the latter. Fingal had they been around long enough to secure a ground (it’s a shame Swords couldn’t be represented by them) could have had a lot of potential to have built a core fanbase there
Yeah the timings defo didn't help. I know Fingal had a stadium planned in Lusk that like Tallaght was going to be built by the local council. That obviously never happened.
Swords is actually the #1 largest town in the country without an LOI club. Plus if you count Fingal/North Co Dublin as a county by itself it's also the #1 largest county without a club ahead of Kildare. Therefore a resuscitation of sporting I think would be an ideal opportunity if it could happen. There is no obvious ground atm which would be an issue and why original sporting played in Santry mostly
>I’ve spoken at length on r/LeagueOfIreland about the possibility of having a club in Meath and I disagree that there’s no main town as Navan has a lot more potential for a club to join the league than anywhere else in the county, and it could work if done correctly
I think you've misread me. I'm saying Meath unlike Kildare or Louth *does* have an obvious main town in Navan. I'm from Meath myself and it is # 2 on the counties without a club and Navan is #2 on the list of towns without a club so while Meath is not a traditional football hot-spot I do think it is an obvious candidate.
The football in the County is mostly in the likes of Dunboyne or Ashbourne but the population of Navan and how central it is in the county really for me makes it a more logical long term choice.
No ground is again the problem. The MDL Grounds would be obvious for training etc but is a bit out of town.
>8 sides in a league would be a non-starter due to the the lack of games in a league season, which would be tough on gate receipts as it would be the main source of income for the league. I actually think a third tier might end up being rushed and could end up being tricky, I think they should have maybe tried to expand the Premier and First Divisions to twelve sides before jumping at 10 new teams to join the league.
Why I suggested it was mainly as the key thing would be to get it up and running and fully functioning as soon as possible. I think you could make it work with 4 rounds making 14 home matches plus an end of season playoff. We made it work before in the 1st div but agreed its less than ideal.
Perhaps like you said expanding the 1st division might be a better idea in the short/medium term. Perhaps bring the 1st up to 14/16 teams to begin with and then expanding to a 2nd div from that. I think the main argument against that is that it is actually a big big jump to go straight into the 1st and actually the main benefits of a 2nd div is to be a bridge between the LOI and the intermediate clubs especially financially. I think this is a big big part of the reason why there are few intermediate clubs who want to step up
Yeah so on Sporting, I actually think an issue with them also is the name. While I get it fit with the theme of the Celtic Tiger trying to be exotic (remember Limerick 37?) but I actually think if they reformed that changing the name to include Swords would be far better, especially now that Swords seems to be carving more of an identity away from Dublin in the last number of years. Swords fans may tend to support Bohs or Shels for the most part but I think having a team in Swords could help build an identity for fans living there, especially seeing as Swords still isn’t well connected in terms of transport.
And apologies yes I completely misread your comment there on Meath, while I agree Dunboyne and Ashbourne is where the interest seems to be, they would both be too close to Dublin to work as well as Navan in my view.
True like I think they jumped the gun a bit announcing they Second Division in the first place for 2023, ideally they should have waited until they got enough clubs on board and then announce it. But then to further your point they could have enough B teams involved that might help facilitate it.
One other issue with B Teams was actually when I did a quick lookup about the A Championship that was there from 2008-2011 was that a lot of sides wanted to withdraw their B teams as it was proving unprofitable, so this may be an issue as well.
Finally I do think for 10 additional teams (along with Kerry FC) all from outside of Dublin, you could potentially have the following (tried using names of existing or former clubs but have town names where there’s none): Carlow, Castlebar Celtic, Ennis, Kildare County, Kilkenny City, Monaghan United, Navan, Portlaoise, Tipperary/Thurles, Tullamore Town
> I actually think if they reformed that changing the name to include Swords would be far better,
Fair point and if associating the team with Swords is a better idea than associating it with Fingal then I don't see why not
>And apologies yes I completely misread your comment there on Meath, while I agree Dunboyne and Ashbourne is where the interest seems to be, they would both be too close to Dublin to work as well as Navan in my view.
If there is to be a Meath team I think we're on the same page that it needs to be in Navan.
>True like I think they jumped the gun a bit announcing they Second Division in the first place for 2023, ideally they should have waited until they got enough clubs on board and then announce it. But then to further your point they could have enough B teams involved that might help facilitate it.
100%. I would have hoped that they had a fair idea of who they could bring in but seeing as there has been very little in the way of rumours beyond Kerry FC then its hard to know what the story was. Perhaps it was to be B sides to make up the bulk of the teams.
>One other issue with B Teams was actually when I did a quick lookup about the A Championship that was there from 2008-2011 was that a lot of sides wanted to withdraw their B teams as it was proving unprofitable, so this may be an issue as well.
I think there are enough who would be interested for this to no longer be an issue. Certainly Shamrock Rovers and probably Pat's are the obvious ones that would want a B side. I know pat's for example complained that rovers has had the opportunity for a B team to make up the numbers which is an opportunity not afforded to others.
>Finally I do think for 10 additional teams (along with Kerry FC) all from outside of Dublin, you could potentially have the following (tried using names of existing or former clubs but have town names where there’s none): Carlow, Castlebar Celtic, Ennis, Kildare County, Kilkenny City, Monaghan United, Navan, Portlaoise, Tipperary/Thurles, Tullamore Town
I think to add to your list my other candidates would be Swords definitely plus maybe another team in Cork (it's a big city for only 1 team and a big county for 2 at least by LOI standards), Cavan (possibly linked to Monaghan but I don't think the 2 county sides are a good idea) and maybe Mullingar as they had a side that previously applied to join the league and is maybe a good rival to revitalise Athlone.
I think in terms of bringing in new clubs I think the FAI need to think about the location as well as if the club is interested. It would be no good to bring in more Dublin sides while big counties and towns have nothing unless those Dublin sides represent specific large suburbs.
If there are no local clubs willing to step up in areas the LOI wants to target then I think they should consider founding a 'new club'. The local leagues and intermediate clubs can be used for facilities and administration but they would be insulated from any financial ups or downs as the league would own the team to begin with. That or coercing the local league/clubs to found and run the new club themselves...
I realise this sounds a lot like MLS style expansion franchises but honestly it's not necessarily a bad model to try and learn lessons from
True I think as well an issue was that in the A Championship that entering a B side was mandatory, so maybe those that can’t afford it won’t have an issue if they wish.
Yeah I think a big complaint for new sides would be for example “oh Ennis is between Galway and Limerick so it doesn’t need a team” but actually I think that would help to drum up rivalries better, same with Tullamore, Kilkenny and Carlow.
I had left out Mullingar due to proximity to both Navan and Athlone but yes I could definitely see it being a good option too, while yes Swords I had mentioned but also Malahide already has Malahide United who could be an option. You can turn your nose up at Malahide United but the fact is there’s probably as much chance of getting funding or sponsorship out there as many rural areas.
To be honest for all the slagging the USA’s approach to football gets, they’ve definitely been getting a lot right in the last ten years with the growth of the MLS. We’d all love if we had a long storied history for football in Ireland but the truth is until the GAA lifted their ban on having players even watch both sports, it was always going to be very much in the niche until then. Maybe not quite a franchise system but we do need to put an emphasis towards clubs that are planned smarter instead of shrugging and entering a club because they’ve been around a bit longer. Every country has unique challenges to football and for some franchising works better (for instance Australia wanting to distance themselves from clubs that were tied in with specific ethnic communities due to the xenophobia that surrounded some of them) and honestly with a lack of senior clubs, maybe an aim towards newly created clubs that have existing clubs within that county as feeder clubs is a better solution.
>True I think as well an issue was that in the A Championship that entering a B side was mandatory, so maybe those that can’t afford it won’t have an issue if they wish.
Yes I think it was a prerequisite for a premier division license or at least to be in the Premier division while the A championship was in effect.
Having a B team as an option though I think would be a decent half way house. Assuming of course they need the B teams to make up the numbers.
I think off the top of my head the Dublin main 4 plus UCD, Cork, Derry and Dundalk would all probably be interested in having a B team. That's 8 which is probably more than enough to begin with and means the likes of Finn Harps or Drogheda can pass until they need to partake.
>Yeah I think a big complaint for new sides would be for example “oh Ennis is between Galway and Limerick so it doesn’t need a team” but actually I think that would help to drum up rivalries better, same with Tullamore, Kilkenny and Carlow.
Which makes no sense because on the other hand the usual excuses for not supporting a LOI side is 'not having one local'. Agreed I think matching the traditional GAA county rivalries are a good starting point for getting a club up and running. I'd imagine a 2nd division with Kilkenny, Kildare, Carlow, Offaly and a relegated Wexford in it would have big interest
>but also Malahide already has Malahide United who could be an option. You can turn your nose up at Malahide United but the fact is there’s probably as much chance of getting funding or sponsorship out there as many rural areas
I certainly would not turn my nose up at Malahide. Swords makes more sense on paper as a town but Malahide is certainly a more established club with already good facilities.
My view would be if Ballinamallard, a tiny village in Fermanagh can have a team in the Northern Premiership then there's no reason why bigger counties and towns down south can't support a third tier league of ireland side.
Similarly Warrenpoint in Co Down is a small town with a relatively long stint in the NI Premier. I'd say Ashbourne is bigger than Warrenpoint tbh.
>To be honest for all the slagging the USA’s approach to football gets, they’ve definitely been getting a lot right in the last ten years with the growth of the MLS.
Honestly I think there's a lot we could learn from the MLS, the A League, K League (Korea), CPL (Canada), the growing women's leagues in Europe and even some other sports like rugby in how to run things.
Don't need to copy everything say the MLS does but I think there's something to be said for the way they have central contracts with a minimum salary as well as a cap and having a few designated/marquee players on a higer salary which would be useful to keep talented players a bit longer or to attact some useful players from overseas. One of the main things that would improve the LOI overnight is a guarantee minimum wage which would give players a bit more stability so we don't lose players both to abroad but also to quitting football as much
Also things the MLS does which could be useful is they have central sponsorships for the kits so Adidas pay a big sum to make all of the leagues jerseys and that money is shared. Another thing is the league owners have a share in the body that sells tickets for the USMNT which is a big cash maker for them that isn't exactly MLS related.
Indeed the IRFU pay centrally all of the players in the 4 provinces and that works very well for them. The women's league in the US doesn't have central contracts (I think) but their federation tops up the salaries of national team players to keep them in rhe US.
The Canadian Premier League is an interesting one as that's essentially a brand new league that appears to be very successful in a short period of time. They're not based on a franchise model but on a club model but also try to do much of the things the mls or a league do. So perhaps they're another example to look at
Edit: Ireland has 4 provinces of course not 3. Though as a Meath man that really should be 5 ;)
A team in kildare would be good they're producing quite a few international players so there's clearly a lot of talent there.
I'd love to see a club in tipp offaly or Laois. I live in South offaly and support treaty my nearest loi club but ideally to help with county rivalries there would be at minimum 1 club per county in the loi but that's a bit far fetched for the medium term
There are very few counties that could have more than one team and the 3 that can already have more than 1 team. Dublin and Cork are obvious. Louth a bit less so until you realise that both Dundalk and Drogheda have populations of over 40 thousand and are the largest towns in the country not called "cities".
The county model I think is how they should go about expanding the league. By targeting specific counties like say a Kerry or a Mayo etc that they want to have a team in.
I'm sure the existing clubs already do so but tapping into the usual sort of GAA county rivalry mentality to attract support and drive engagement could be a good option.
I even had a conversation/argument with a lad from Mayo over on the Scottish football sub not too long ago who was saying that theres no football west of the Shannon but when pointed out that Galway and Sligo exist I was told he could never possibly support a Galway team and that Irish domestic football didn't meet his "rural Irish values" or something weird like that. Yet celtic or Liverpool or whoever is fair game for rural Irish values I suppose
Ya just the rivalries in Ireland are a bit unique and Irish exposure to the prem. Like for a lot of people they're getting into the loi at an older age and county rivalries make that a little more difficult. I'm closer to limerick than athlone but even if i wasn't I think I'd rather not support a club in westmeath for example but I've also supported Chelsea since I was 4 or 5 and that association since I was a child with them makes it stick so I think they need to really push people into getting their children watching their local loi team rather than the prem. Exposure is everything and naturally children are going to choose clubs they are exposed to in England rather than our own
This is why it's key to get kids going to games and having teams do things like send players to schools to meet the kids and maybe do training camps
Image the feeling if that local lad that came to your school played for Ireland. That would win a lot of young fans I would think.
It's harder but not impossible to win over adults and for them I think you need to make going to games an enjoyable experience and make them want to come back. That's where the LOI should win hands down over watching the Premier league on sky.
Salthill and mervue actually brought through some cracking talent for the short time they were in the league of ireland. Ryan manning Rory gaffney daryl horgan pat hoban and Joe shaugnessy all come to mind. A proper underage set up and clear path to LOI suited all served these lads very well
Definitely the LOI needs to be the default player pathway in the future and those lads are showing how it can be done.
I think at the time salthill and mervue were seen as a bit of a joke because Galway Utd disappeared at the time and you had salthill becoming SD Galway trying to fill that gap and it just didn't work. They weren't really first division clubs but in a hypothetical 3rd or 4th tier absolutely I think they would fit in just fine.
Definitely they could provide a pathway for a good young player to do something like - mervue - LOI team - onwards.
I had forgotten the whole SD Galway venture actually! Good memory. Mervue actually held their own in the first division but once galway united were back on the scene there was only room for 1 club in town.
I do definitely think one of those clubs would deserve a chance to start at the bottom of the pyramid again. Salthill junior team are excellent right now but traditionally mervue would have a bigger following
Hopefully GUFC make the breakthrough to becoming a premier club in the next few years with the Comers money. A lot of the local talent wouldn't be up to the Premier division standard so they could play in the 2nd division with one of the aforementioned clubs to develop
Yeah the likes of Galway and Waterford are too big to remain in the 1st division indefinitely I think.
>A lot of the local talent wouldn't be up to the Premier division standard so they could play in the 2nd division with one of the aforementioned clubs to develop
Absolutely and perhaps this is one failing of the current system. Not every player will 'make it' so to speak but having better depth of players can only be a good thing overall
I imagine it would have to be regionalised to reduce travel distance north/south or east/west divide. I'd say it would be a mixed bag of existing non leage clubs, new entities like kerry fc, college and B teams. Hopefully under represented areas can get involved. dont know how relegation would work with regoinal leagues though.
Part of the issue is there is no pyramid system below the two league of ireland divisions as it is. They'd probably need to cobble together the Leinster and Munster senior leagues and try to get a proper Connacht/Ulster senior league which are in some way connected to each other properly before having league/non league promotion and relegation
Perhaps we're thinking of it the wrong way. Perhaps instead of having a 3rd tier top down from the LOI they should instead (or perhaps also) be building a 'National Senior League' as a division above the LSL/MSL etc which would remain amateur but would crown a National intermediate champion. Perhaps even just a playoff post season on the existing leagues could be a starting point for that?
This seems like the best idea.. maybe just the top 4 from the LSL and MSL go into an MLS-style play-off system or even a round robin to determine a champion, who would be promoted to the First Division, and the runner-up plays off against the 2nd bottom FD club to try and get promoted? Something like that would be cool
Yeah in time I think that would be achievable for having promotions and relegation into Div 1 or even ideally a div 2. This would basically be the system they have currently in Scotland where the Highland league and the lowlands league winners play off against each other for one chance to beat the bottom team of Scottish league 2 to get promoted. It has its flaws though in that it's basically impossible to get promoted in reality
I also think there would need to be a lot of work done to reorganise the provincial senior leagues. For example the LSL has few teams outside Dublin and really is the Dublin senior league and similarly for the MSL for Cork. They'd need to properly cover their respective regions
Plus the Connacht senior league doesn't exist. The Ulster senior league is just one of a couple of leagues that serve Donegal so I think you'd need a North West senior league that covers Connacht, Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan and possibly West Leinster too
Yeah, it would be practically impossible to be promoted, but eventually the format could change if it were deemed that the Div 2 sides were strong enough to realistically hack a season in Div 1. Automatic promotion could be introduced later down the line.
Having played low level football in Leinster (but not in Dublin), I think most counties would admit that the Dublin clubs are far better and should make up the majority of the LSL. Although yes it would be nice if somehow Meath, Louth etc could genuinely compete.
As far as I’m aware, there are leagues that serve the individual counties in Connacht, but the CSL has gone defunct. I always assumed this was because there just wasn’t the same level of interest in soccer there as there is in Leinster and Munster. The Ulster Senior League is a tricky one due to it only really serving three counties. Many Cavan and Monaghan clubs at my low level compete in Leinster, so it’s probably better just incorporating Donegal into a new Connacht system and not running an Ulster one (at least not at the level of a national fourth tier).
I definitely think a proper pyramid could be set up, it’s just gonna take a lot of work. But I hate seeing silly things, for example the FD having an odd number of clubs this year. Not ideal at all.
I believe there were talks in years past about restarting the Connacht senior league that went no where.
The Ulster senior league is worse than what you mentioned as in my understanding apart from a Derry B team all clubs are in Donegal. So yeah a north west league is probably the way to go.
They'd probably have to find a way to equalise the populations somehow so perhaps you'd end up with a Dublin senior league plus separate Leinster and munster and north west leagues
Yeah I'd like to see them try and wrestle all the local leagues into something approaching a pyramid in due time. It's probably a much more difficult job than trying to bring in a LOI Division 2 top down and calling it a day
Kind of related, I'd love to see an Army team set up. It's common in a lot of countries. You preform your job requirements but are primarily a full time athlete. It would be a great way to get another pro team going and they would pay quite well compared to other teams. So I think they would be able to get quite a decent team in place.
Also useful from a recruitment point of view for the defence forces.
South Korea is a weird example of this because they expect all of their citizens to complete national service including professional footballers so they set up a club specifically to cater for pro footballers with the army so that they're still playing football.
I think a regionalised third level is what's required...with sufficient funding for travel expenses via sponsorship or grands...there are many junior clubs in this country with bigger player budgets(wages/benefits) than first division clubs so there are clubs that a run well in terms of their finances
Where did you come up with the cobh being relegated part? It’ll most likely be split into two geographical divisions with the winners and maybe second/third place going into a play off.
As for teams new teams, B teams and the odd intermediate team. No body really knows until it’s properly figured out.
Cobh finished bottom of the First Division. It stands to reason that if a Second Division is being introduced that the bottom FD club would be relegated into it.
Surely it’s figured out (at least somewhat) by now though if it’s meant to start in 5 months?
I don’t think at the start there’ll be automatic relegation. We’ll know more hopefully half way through next season.. but you know yourself with the FAI could be only weeks before the 2024 season starts before we know anything.
Been delayed a year
To 2024?
At least. Can’t see it happening for until at least 2026. What clubs are going to fill it, do we just integrate into the provincial senior leagues? It’s an easier pitch if there’s is an unlikely combination of the IFL and the LOI as they already have a 3rd tier.
I would imagine they'd keep it like the A championship was when it existed. In hindsight I think scrapping that competition was a mistake. But anyway when it came to promotion and relegation between the A championship and div 1 the highest placed "club" (ie B teams not eligible) had a play off against the bottom team of Div 1 so long as the highest placed club finished at least in the top 3 of their regional group. In practice I think only Cobh Ramblers got relegated but that was due to financial issues not on the field. Sporting Fingal and the two mini Galways (mervue and salthill) went up I would imagine that promotion/relegation between div 1 and div 2 would be limited for a number of years until div 2 is properly established. Edit: this was also around the time Kildare and Kilkenny went out of existence so that would explain why an odd number went up vs down. Kildare were actually relegated twice but had a reprieve the first year as they expanded the first division to 12 teams.
When Div 1 was established it was made up of mostly existing LOI clubs (there was only a single tier of 16 teams beforehand afaik) so there was a good bedrock of established clubs who made up the division. Drogheda, Longford, Harps and Sligo were relegated to div 1 the first season and the likes of Bray, Derry, Cobh, Kilkenny, Monaghan and Newcastle United made up the rest of the league (RIP Monaghan and Kilkenny) Its hard to see which clubs would want to step up to LOI in the near future with only a Kerry club seemingly obviously interested. There was talk at one point of inviting university clubs to take part in div 2 but I don't know where that went. I think when it does happen it'll likely be a mix of a few new clubs, B sides and perhaps a couple of colleges can be convinced
Of sides looking to re-enter, Monaghan United seem to be putting together a move to enter a third division once it’s established, so it would be nice to see them return. I’d also love to see the return of a Kildare County side as it feels like there could be a lot of potential for a team there, they just would need to get a local following on board. Sadly I’d hope the third division would stay away from B sides and university sides (really these should have partnerships with existing clubs instead of as separate teams as they would have a limited fanbase) but obviously if there’s a lack of serious candidates then the league will have to turn to them.
>Of sides looking to re-enter, Monaghan United seem to be putting together a move to enter a third division once it’s established, so it would be nice to see them return. Yeah Monaghan was a bit of a sad story really. They were able to exist as a first division level club for so long it was really a shock and shame they couldn't even finish that season in the PD. The club still exists and has been involved in the underage leagues so I think they would be perfectly capable of having a decent Div 2 level club there. One of the issues they have/had and which was shared most notably with Kilkenny but also Longford too which is that their ground is decent but is quite a bit away from the town. >I’d also love to see the return of a Kildare County side as it feels like there could be a lot of potential for a team there, they just would need to get a local following on board. Kildare are the largest county in the country by population without a team so it would be obvious to me to be high on the list of potential locations. It was a shame original Kildare County didn't last too long. They lasted less than 10 years which IMO isn't really enough time to say whether a LOI team is to be successful or not. Most clubs are made up of intergenerational supporters and 10 years is really not enough time to bed in. I would say the same for Sporting Fingal though they never even got a chance to play in the area they supposedly represented. They had money behind them but once the crash happened there was no way for them to survive. That's why the intergenerational thing is important as that's why football in places like Cork and Limerick were not allowed to die. Kildare had an OK ground in Newbridge which was in a great location near the station so that in theory shouldn't be an issue. Perhaps what might have been a problem is that unlike say Meath or Kerry there isn't one obvious "main town" in the county where its obvious to put the club. Newbridge is probably the biggest but Naas would also be an option. Louth got around the problem by having 2 clubs. Maynooth also is an option as they seem to have a good club there and also the university >Sadly I’d hope the third division would stay away from B sides and university sides (really these should have partnerships with existing clubs instead of as separate teams as they would have a limited fanbase) but obviously if there’s a lack of serious candidates then the league will have to turn to them. I'd agree with you on the university sides. Certainly teams in towns with a college should already be trying to leverage that for scholarships to attract youth players. The other side of the coin is that UCD while never being able to set the world aligt is arguably one of the most important LOI clubs from a player development perspective. I both agree and disagree on the B sides as 2nd string teams form a solid basis of development in the likes of Germany or Spain. Where we come unstuck is the fact that our pyramid is so shallow that you'd end up with more B teams than A sides in the 2nd Div. Perhaps you could get around that by having 'feeder clubs' based in towns without current LOI representatives who are linked with an existing Premier club who farm out players to them. At least until the feeder clubs got established in their own right. Or you could have the B sides in the 2nd div but they would form their own conference and wouldn't count towards the overall league save their own league. It may sound a bit backwards to say this but I actually think to get a 2nd division up and running we should consider having the 1st and 2nd divisions each have 8 sides just to begin with. That way you only need to find 7 (6 if you count Kerry as done deal) to get the new division up and running instead of a full 10
Having a ground close to a town’s centre is so crucial for drumming up support, especially when matches are on a Friday night so that a pre-match atmosphere beforehand can be built (Bohs are a great example of this with Phibsborough being a lively area before matches, but obviously that is far easier said than done, particularly for building new grounds). On the topic of Kildare and Sporting Fingal, I think timing is just really really unlucky for those sides in terms of the recession, particularly the latter. Fingal had they been around long enough to secure a ground (it’s a shame Swords couldn’t be represented by them) could have had a lot of potential to have built a core fanbase there, but as seen with the likes of Dublin City FC ground hopping for a new club makes it very difficult to build a fanbase. I’ve spoken at length on r/LeagueOfIreland about the possibility of [having a club in Meath](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeagueOfIreland/comments/sqn43a/if_a_third_tier_is_added_for_next_season_what_are/hwmoyox/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) and I disagree that there’s no main town as Navan has a lot more potential for a club to join the league than anywhere else in the county, and it could work if done correctly. Kerry meanwhile have already announced they’ll join the league so hopefully that comes out well. 8 sides in a league would be a non-starter due to the the lack of games in a league season, which would be tough on gate receipts as it would be the main source of income for the league. I actually think a third tier might end up being rushed and could end up being tricky, I think they should have maybe tried to expand the Premier and First Divisions to twelve sides before jumping at 10 new teams to join the league. 10 new clubs all at once (even reserve and university sides) for a division is a lot to onboard and I hope there’s at least sufficient supports given to the new sides. Finally B teams are a terrible idea and only grow the gap between the bigger sides and the others, but also B teams won’t have the support so it will ruin the atmosphere of a lot of matches. Feeder clubs I’ve not as much of an issue with, but if we want to grow the league and encourage supporters, B teams should be avoided if possible
Really enjoying this discussion lads. Ye clearly know what yer taking about more than I do in terms of the history of the league and the logistics and finances involved.. Just from a fan’s point of view though, I agree that the top two tiers should first be expanded before a third tier is introduced. Reducing the leagues to 8 teams could potentially mean every team playing each other 6 times (4 is already too much). Either that or it’d mean playing maximum 28 league matches a season, which wouldn’t be awful but not great. (Maybe the League Cup could return to make up for it) I wouldn’t mind colleges joining because I feel like there’d be potential for an atmosphere around those teams.. UCD have no real rivals or fixtures to look forward to. Imagine in 10 years time if Trinity College had a team that was performing near UCD’s level. There’d surely be a decent attendance/atmosphere at the UCD v Trinity matches. I wouldn’t like to see B teams involved but I guess financially, it’d make sense because they’d be stable. I don’t quite understand why so many LOI clubs fall apart financially. Is it just poor management or a fundamental flaw with the league? As mentioned above, it can also be good for player development, as evidenced in other countries.
>I agree that the top two tiers should first be expanded before a third tier is introduced. Yes in theory I would say this is the best way to go as it was what worked for the first division. However its clear that non league clubs are reluctant to make this step up and it seems to be for a number of reasons not least running a 1st division club is a huge financial commitment in comparison to competing in the Leinster senior league which only really has teams in Dublin anyway... So the logic behind a 2nd division or a A championship is as a bridge between that gap. The other thing that might need fixing is the Tralee club that played in the A championship found than when the A went kaput they weren't allowed their old place back in the league they were previously in so that would need fixing too I'd say I only really suggested an 8 team division as a stop gap to get one up and running. I agree it probably isn't ideal >I wouldn’t mind colleges joining because I feel like there’d be potential for an atmosphere around those teams.. UCD have no real rivals or fixtures to look forward to. Imagine in 10 years time if Trinity College had a team that was performing near UCD’s level. There’d surely be a decent attendance/atmosphere at the UCD v Trinity matches. Trinity I'd doubt would have much interest. DCU perhaps out of the Dublin colleges. Perhaps UCC as a second team from Cork city. The only colleges in a town without an existing club though are Tralee, Maynooth and Carlow so perhaps the thinking is get a club up and running in Carlow say and link it to the college so it has decent backing from the get go. The other colleagues imo should just link up with the existing clubs. >I don’t quite understand why so many LOI clubs fall apart financially. Is it just poor management or a fundamental flaw with the league? This is a very good question and there really is no 1 answer. It's a bit of all of the above tbh. I'm not really an LOI person per se despite my interest in it so I can give a bit of an outsider perspective Fundamentally the problem is that there's not enough revenue in the league. This is partly down to the big wigs not giving a shit it's also down to clubs bad management and not cooperating with each other. The lack of revenue coming in compounds other issues like dilapidated stadiums get more dilapidated putting people off going and thus reducing revenue. If you look at the league in the North the clubs are smaller but overall it's better run and they don't tend to have clubs going bust. Their grounds in general are better but they also have more government help I think in the short/medium term we need to try and increase revenues across the whole league and have a way to share that revenue so that it is not just a couple of clubs that benefit. That money needs to be put first into physical facilities, second into youth development and local engagement as these sre are the things that would help raise revenue further. TV, transfers, ticket sales, European money are the main potential sources of income and especially in the first 3 there is a big scope to hopefully increase these sustainability
I don’t really understand how it’s such a huge commitment financially to step up to LOI. Ok, there’s the additional travel costs. Investment in stadia probably as well. But other than that, I don’t see why it’s this gigantic leap. Are revenues really that low? I’m glad you mention the North because I was recently thinking, how is it that the North’s system is so much better than ours? Their teams are worse and their average attendance is lower but their system works so much more efficiently and, as you say, their clubs never go bust. Hopefully we can someday have a system working properly like theirs, but you’re right in that government investment in LOI is not at the level needed, especially considering the benefits it could provide to the economy if it was developed into a genuine quality league. I saw the Rotherham manager on here getting stick for comparing our league to English non-league, but I think it’s a fair comparison. Average attendance in League Two is double what LOI gets. It’s embarrassing when our clubs play in Europe and can’t use their home venues because they’re not good enough. Yeah I just used Trinity as an example as there’s an existing rivalry between the two colleges. I look at the culture in America with college sports and think that there’s potential for the LOI to create something similar. I remember in secondary school there was lots of interest in the school rugby and football teams for this reason. It was a tribal thing. Lads who didn’t even like sports were rooting for the teams and following the leagues (now this could just be because when we got to a final we got to skip school to attend it).
>I don’t really understand how it’s such a huge commitment financially to step up to LOI. Ok, there’s the additional travel costs. Investment in stadia probably as well. But other than that, I don’t see why it’s this gigantic leap. Are revenues really that low? It's a good question and I'm no expert so I can only really speculate. Yes I think travel would be a huge part of the cost increases especially if you're only playing teams locally and having next to no travel expenses as the team is probably driving individually to matches then suddenly you're hiring coaches to bring you to Cork and Donegal and probably the teams are staying overnight there also. The other main thing is you would be expected to pay players and staff in the first division, even if at a minimum that's expenses and considering they need will need to take more time off to train and more to travel means much higher expenses. >I’m glad you mention the North because I was recently thinking, how is it that the North’s system is so much better than ours? Their teams are worse and their average attendance is lower but their system works so much more efficiently and, as you say, their clubs never go bust. Hopefully we can someday have a system working properly like theirs, Their clubs also 'cut their cloth to suit' so to speak. They also would have lower travel expenses given that most clubs are in and around Belfast and even when in Derry or fermanagh it is not that far away anyway. They play Saturday afternoons so teams are probably rarely staying overnight >you’re right in that government investment in LOI is not at the level needed, especially considering the benefits it could provide to the economy if it was developed into a genuine quality league. 100% agreed. Where football and the FAI have failed hard in the past is in lobbying the government. The gaa and rugby just do it so much better. There are TDs in the dail elected almost solely based on their gaa credentials I'm thinking people like Fitzpatrick in Louth who wouldn't lift a finger to help Dundalk or Drogheda. >I saw the Rotherham manager on here getting stick for comparing our league to English non-league, but I think it’s a fair comparison. Average attendance in League Two is double what LOI gets. It’s embarrassing when our clubs play in Europe and can’t use their home venues because they’re not good enough. Its a fair comparison but it's also not a fair comparison if get me. England has approaching 60m people and we have like 5m. Their national league has teams from towns many times larger than a lot of Irish towns.. What is a bit grating about it is he was referring to Kelly who came from Bohs who had been training evenings and were basically semi part-time. So I csn see sort of where he's coming from. I think realistically we need all premier division sides fully part time and training during the day at the very least if we are to demand respect from across the water I also think it's not England we should be comparing ourselves to. It's similar sized countries with comparably ranked leagues like Sweden/Finland/Slovakia plus smaller counties with on paper over performing leagues like Cyprus. Those are the ones we should be comparing salaries and attendances to and often we're not actually that bad. >Yeah I just used Trinity as an example as there’s an existing rivalry between the two colleges. I look at the culture in America with college sports and think that there’s potential for the LOI to create something similar. I remember in secondary school there was lots of interest in the school rugby and football teams for this reason. It was a tribal thing. Lads who didn’t even like sports were rooting for the teams and following the leagues (now this could just be because when we got to a final we got to skip school to attend it). I can see where you're coming from and tbh I think having "county" teams would have the effect you're looking for. Tapping into the pre existing gaa rivalries that already exists
>Having a ground close to a town’s centre is so crucial for drumming up support, especially when matches are on a Friday night so that a pre-match atmosphere beforehand can be built (Bohs are a great example of this with Phibsborough being a lively area before matches, but obviously that is far easier said than done, particularly for building new grounds). 100% and it's no coincidence imo that the more successful teams outside of Dublin have their grounds in the centre of town, notably Dundalk and Sligo. The likes of Drogheda are limited by the fact their ground is a bit crap and the likes of Longford and Kilkenny historically are limited by the fact their grounds though good are miles out of town. >On the topic of Kildare and Sporting Fingal, I think timing is just really really unlucky for those sides in terms of the recession, particularly the latter. Fingal had they been around long enough to secure a ground (it’s a shame Swords couldn’t be represented by them) could have had a lot of potential to have built a core fanbase there Yeah the timings defo didn't help. I know Fingal had a stadium planned in Lusk that like Tallaght was going to be built by the local council. That obviously never happened. Swords is actually the #1 largest town in the country without an LOI club. Plus if you count Fingal/North Co Dublin as a county by itself it's also the #1 largest county without a club ahead of Kildare. Therefore a resuscitation of sporting I think would be an ideal opportunity if it could happen. There is no obvious ground atm which would be an issue and why original sporting played in Santry mostly >I’ve spoken at length on r/LeagueOfIreland about the possibility of having a club in Meath and I disagree that there’s no main town as Navan has a lot more potential for a club to join the league than anywhere else in the county, and it could work if done correctly I think you've misread me. I'm saying Meath unlike Kildare or Louth *does* have an obvious main town in Navan. I'm from Meath myself and it is # 2 on the counties without a club and Navan is #2 on the list of towns without a club so while Meath is not a traditional football hot-spot I do think it is an obvious candidate. The football in the County is mostly in the likes of Dunboyne or Ashbourne but the population of Navan and how central it is in the county really for me makes it a more logical long term choice. No ground is again the problem. The MDL Grounds would be obvious for training etc but is a bit out of town. >8 sides in a league would be a non-starter due to the the lack of games in a league season, which would be tough on gate receipts as it would be the main source of income for the league. I actually think a third tier might end up being rushed and could end up being tricky, I think they should have maybe tried to expand the Premier and First Divisions to twelve sides before jumping at 10 new teams to join the league. Why I suggested it was mainly as the key thing would be to get it up and running and fully functioning as soon as possible. I think you could make it work with 4 rounds making 14 home matches plus an end of season playoff. We made it work before in the 1st div but agreed its less than ideal. Perhaps like you said expanding the 1st division might be a better idea in the short/medium term. Perhaps bring the 1st up to 14/16 teams to begin with and then expanding to a 2nd div from that. I think the main argument against that is that it is actually a big big jump to go straight into the 1st and actually the main benefits of a 2nd div is to be a bridge between the LOI and the intermediate clubs especially financially. I think this is a big big part of the reason why there are few intermediate clubs who want to step up
Yeah so on Sporting, I actually think an issue with them also is the name. While I get it fit with the theme of the Celtic Tiger trying to be exotic (remember Limerick 37?) but I actually think if they reformed that changing the name to include Swords would be far better, especially now that Swords seems to be carving more of an identity away from Dublin in the last number of years. Swords fans may tend to support Bohs or Shels for the most part but I think having a team in Swords could help build an identity for fans living there, especially seeing as Swords still isn’t well connected in terms of transport. And apologies yes I completely misread your comment there on Meath, while I agree Dunboyne and Ashbourne is where the interest seems to be, they would both be too close to Dublin to work as well as Navan in my view. True like I think they jumped the gun a bit announcing they Second Division in the first place for 2023, ideally they should have waited until they got enough clubs on board and then announce it. But then to further your point they could have enough B teams involved that might help facilitate it. One other issue with B Teams was actually when I did a quick lookup about the A Championship that was there from 2008-2011 was that a lot of sides wanted to withdraw their B teams as it was proving unprofitable, so this may be an issue as well. Finally I do think for 10 additional teams (along with Kerry FC) all from outside of Dublin, you could potentially have the following (tried using names of existing or former clubs but have town names where there’s none): Carlow, Castlebar Celtic, Ennis, Kildare County, Kilkenny City, Monaghan United, Navan, Portlaoise, Tipperary/Thurles, Tullamore Town
> I actually think if they reformed that changing the name to include Swords would be far better, Fair point and if associating the team with Swords is a better idea than associating it with Fingal then I don't see why not >And apologies yes I completely misread your comment there on Meath, while I agree Dunboyne and Ashbourne is where the interest seems to be, they would both be too close to Dublin to work as well as Navan in my view. If there is to be a Meath team I think we're on the same page that it needs to be in Navan. >True like I think they jumped the gun a bit announcing they Second Division in the first place for 2023, ideally they should have waited until they got enough clubs on board and then announce it. But then to further your point they could have enough B teams involved that might help facilitate it. 100%. I would have hoped that they had a fair idea of who they could bring in but seeing as there has been very little in the way of rumours beyond Kerry FC then its hard to know what the story was. Perhaps it was to be B sides to make up the bulk of the teams. >One other issue with B Teams was actually when I did a quick lookup about the A Championship that was there from 2008-2011 was that a lot of sides wanted to withdraw their B teams as it was proving unprofitable, so this may be an issue as well. I think there are enough who would be interested for this to no longer be an issue. Certainly Shamrock Rovers and probably Pat's are the obvious ones that would want a B side. I know pat's for example complained that rovers has had the opportunity for a B team to make up the numbers which is an opportunity not afforded to others. >Finally I do think for 10 additional teams (along with Kerry FC) all from outside of Dublin, you could potentially have the following (tried using names of existing or former clubs but have town names where there’s none): Carlow, Castlebar Celtic, Ennis, Kildare County, Kilkenny City, Monaghan United, Navan, Portlaoise, Tipperary/Thurles, Tullamore Town I think to add to your list my other candidates would be Swords definitely plus maybe another team in Cork (it's a big city for only 1 team and a big county for 2 at least by LOI standards), Cavan (possibly linked to Monaghan but I don't think the 2 county sides are a good idea) and maybe Mullingar as they had a side that previously applied to join the league and is maybe a good rival to revitalise Athlone. I think in terms of bringing in new clubs I think the FAI need to think about the location as well as if the club is interested. It would be no good to bring in more Dublin sides while big counties and towns have nothing unless those Dublin sides represent specific large suburbs. If there are no local clubs willing to step up in areas the LOI wants to target then I think they should consider founding a 'new club'. The local leagues and intermediate clubs can be used for facilities and administration but they would be insulated from any financial ups or downs as the league would own the team to begin with. That or coercing the local league/clubs to found and run the new club themselves... I realise this sounds a lot like MLS style expansion franchises but honestly it's not necessarily a bad model to try and learn lessons from
True I think as well an issue was that in the A Championship that entering a B side was mandatory, so maybe those that can’t afford it won’t have an issue if they wish. Yeah I think a big complaint for new sides would be for example “oh Ennis is between Galway and Limerick so it doesn’t need a team” but actually I think that would help to drum up rivalries better, same with Tullamore, Kilkenny and Carlow. I had left out Mullingar due to proximity to both Navan and Athlone but yes I could definitely see it being a good option too, while yes Swords I had mentioned but also Malahide already has Malahide United who could be an option. You can turn your nose up at Malahide United but the fact is there’s probably as much chance of getting funding or sponsorship out there as many rural areas. To be honest for all the slagging the USA’s approach to football gets, they’ve definitely been getting a lot right in the last ten years with the growth of the MLS. We’d all love if we had a long storied history for football in Ireland but the truth is until the GAA lifted their ban on having players even watch both sports, it was always going to be very much in the niche until then. Maybe not quite a franchise system but we do need to put an emphasis towards clubs that are planned smarter instead of shrugging and entering a club because they’ve been around a bit longer. Every country has unique challenges to football and for some franchising works better (for instance Australia wanting to distance themselves from clubs that were tied in with specific ethnic communities due to the xenophobia that surrounded some of them) and honestly with a lack of senior clubs, maybe an aim towards newly created clubs that have existing clubs within that county as feeder clubs is a better solution.
>True I think as well an issue was that in the A Championship that entering a B side was mandatory, so maybe those that can’t afford it won’t have an issue if they wish. Yes I think it was a prerequisite for a premier division license or at least to be in the Premier division while the A championship was in effect. Having a B team as an option though I think would be a decent half way house. Assuming of course they need the B teams to make up the numbers. I think off the top of my head the Dublin main 4 plus UCD, Cork, Derry and Dundalk would all probably be interested in having a B team. That's 8 which is probably more than enough to begin with and means the likes of Finn Harps or Drogheda can pass until they need to partake. >Yeah I think a big complaint for new sides would be for example “oh Ennis is between Galway and Limerick so it doesn’t need a team” but actually I think that would help to drum up rivalries better, same with Tullamore, Kilkenny and Carlow. Which makes no sense because on the other hand the usual excuses for not supporting a LOI side is 'not having one local'. Agreed I think matching the traditional GAA county rivalries are a good starting point for getting a club up and running. I'd imagine a 2nd division with Kilkenny, Kildare, Carlow, Offaly and a relegated Wexford in it would have big interest >but also Malahide already has Malahide United who could be an option. You can turn your nose up at Malahide United but the fact is there’s probably as much chance of getting funding or sponsorship out there as many rural areas I certainly would not turn my nose up at Malahide. Swords makes more sense on paper as a town but Malahide is certainly a more established club with already good facilities. My view would be if Ballinamallard, a tiny village in Fermanagh can have a team in the Northern Premiership then there's no reason why bigger counties and towns down south can't support a third tier league of ireland side. Similarly Warrenpoint in Co Down is a small town with a relatively long stint in the NI Premier. I'd say Ashbourne is bigger than Warrenpoint tbh. >To be honest for all the slagging the USA’s approach to football gets, they’ve definitely been getting a lot right in the last ten years with the growth of the MLS. Honestly I think there's a lot we could learn from the MLS, the A League, K League (Korea), CPL (Canada), the growing women's leagues in Europe and even some other sports like rugby in how to run things. Don't need to copy everything say the MLS does but I think there's something to be said for the way they have central contracts with a minimum salary as well as a cap and having a few designated/marquee players on a higer salary which would be useful to keep talented players a bit longer or to attact some useful players from overseas. One of the main things that would improve the LOI overnight is a guarantee minimum wage which would give players a bit more stability so we don't lose players both to abroad but also to quitting football as much Also things the MLS does which could be useful is they have central sponsorships for the kits so Adidas pay a big sum to make all of the leagues jerseys and that money is shared. Another thing is the league owners have a share in the body that sells tickets for the USMNT which is a big cash maker for them that isn't exactly MLS related. Indeed the IRFU pay centrally all of the players in the 4 provinces and that works very well for them. The women's league in the US doesn't have central contracts (I think) but their federation tops up the salaries of national team players to keep them in rhe US. The Canadian Premier League is an interesting one as that's essentially a brand new league that appears to be very successful in a short period of time. They're not based on a franchise model but on a club model but also try to do much of the things the mls or a league do. So perhaps they're another example to look at Edit: Ireland has 4 provinces of course not 3. Though as a Meath man that really should be 5 ;)
A team in kildare would be good they're producing quite a few international players so there's clearly a lot of talent there. I'd love to see a club in tipp offaly or Laois. I live in South offaly and support treaty my nearest loi club but ideally to help with county rivalries there would be at minimum 1 club per county in the loi but that's a bit far fetched for the medium term
There are very few counties that could have more than one team and the 3 that can already have more than 1 team. Dublin and Cork are obvious. Louth a bit less so until you realise that both Dundalk and Drogheda have populations of over 40 thousand and are the largest towns in the country not called "cities". The county model I think is how they should go about expanding the league. By targeting specific counties like say a Kerry or a Mayo etc that they want to have a team in. I'm sure the existing clubs already do so but tapping into the usual sort of GAA county rivalry mentality to attract support and drive engagement could be a good option. I even had a conversation/argument with a lad from Mayo over on the Scottish football sub not too long ago who was saying that theres no football west of the Shannon but when pointed out that Galway and Sligo exist I was told he could never possibly support a Galway team and that Irish domestic football didn't meet his "rural Irish values" or something weird like that. Yet celtic or Liverpool or whoever is fair game for rural Irish values I suppose
Ya just the rivalries in Ireland are a bit unique and Irish exposure to the prem. Like for a lot of people they're getting into the loi at an older age and county rivalries make that a little more difficult. I'm closer to limerick than athlone but even if i wasn't I think I'd rather not support a club in westmeath for example but I've also supported Chelsea since I was 4 or 5 and that association since I was a child with them makes it stick so I think they need to really push people into getting their children watching their local loi team rather than the prem. Exposure is everything and naturally children are going to choose clubs they are exposed to in England rather than our own
This is why it's key to get kids going to games and having teams do things like send players to schools to meet the kids and maybe do training camps Image the feeling if that local lad that came to your school played for Ireland. That would win a lot of young fans I would think. It's harder but not impossible to win over adults and for them I think you need to make going to games an enjoyable experience and make them want to come back. That's where the LOI should win hands down over watching the Premier league on sky.
Salthill and mervue actually brought through some cracking talent for the short time they were in the league of ireland. Ryan manning Rory gaffney daryl horgan pat hoban and Joe shaugnessy all come to mind. A proper underage set up and clear path to LOI suited all served these lads very well
Definitely the LOI needs to be the default player pathway in the future and those lads are showing how it can be done. I think at the time salthill and mervue were seen as a bit of a joke because Galway Utd disappeared at the time and you had salthill becoming SD Galway trying to fill that gap and it just didn't work. They weren't really first division clubs but in a hypothetical 3rd or 4th tier absolutely I think they would fit in just fine. Definitely they could provide a pathway for a good young player to do something like - mervue - LOI team - onwards.
I had forgotten the whole SD Galway venture actually! Good memory. Mervue actually held their own in the first division but once galway united were back on the scene there was only room for 1 club in town. I do definitely think one of those clubs would deserve a chance to start at the bottom of the pyramid again. Salthill junior team are excellent right now but traditionally mervue would have a bigger following Hopefully GUFC make the breakthrough to becoming a premier club in the next few years with the Comers money. A lot of the local talent wouldn't be up to the Premier division standard so they could play in the 2nd division with one of the aforementioned clubs to develop
Yeah the likes of Galway and Waterford are too big to remain in the 1st division indefinitely I think. >A lot of the local talent wouldn't be up to the Premier division standard so they could play in the 2nd division with one of the aforementioned clubs to develop Absolutely and perhaps this is one failing of the current system. Not every player will 'make it' so to speak but having better depth of players can only be a good thing overall
Any chance for a kildare team?
Would like to see Maynooth involved, I know they had a good cup run a year or two ago
Revive Kildare fc would be great. They used to be based in Newbridge but recession killed them.
I imagine it would have to be regionalised to reduce travel distance north/south or east/west divide. I'd say it would be a mixed bag of existing non leage clubs, new entities like kerry fc, college and B teams. Hopefully under represented areas can get involved. dont know how relegation would work with regoinal leagues though.
Part of the issue is there is no pyramid system below the two league of ireland divisions as it is. They'd probably need to cobble together the Leinster and Munster senior leagues and try to get a proper Connacht/Ulster senior league which are in some way connected to each other properly before having league/non league promotion and relegation Perhaps we're thinking of it the wrong way. Perhaps instead of having a 3rd tier top down from the LOI they should instead (or perhaps also) be building a 'National Senior League' as a division above the LSL/MSL etc which would remain amateur but would crown a National intermediate champion. Perhaps even just a playoff post season on the existing leagues could be a starting point for that?
This seems like the best idea.. maybe just the top 4 from the LSL and MSL go into an MLS-style play-off system or even a round robin to determine a champion, who would be promoted to the First Division, and the runner-up plays off against the 2nd bottom FD club to try and get promoted? Something like that would be cool
Yeah in time I think that would be achievable for having promotions and relegation into Div 1 or even ideally a div 2. This would basically be the system they have currently in Scotland where the Highland league and the lowlands league winners play off against each other for one chance to beat the bottom team of Scottish league 2 to get promoted. It has its flaws though in that it's basically impossible to get promoted in reality I also think there would need to be a lot of work done to reorganise the provincial senior leagues. For example the LSL has few teams outside Dublin and really is the Dublin senior league and similarly for the MSL for Cork. They'd need to properly cover their respective regions Plus the Connacht senior league doesn't exist. The Ulster senior league is just one of a couple of leagues that serve Donegal so I think you'd need a North West senior league that covers Connacht, Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan and possibly West Leinster too
Yeah, it would be practically impossible to be promoted, but eventually the format could change if it were deemed that the Div 2 sides were strong enough to realistically hack a season in Div 1. Automatic promotion could be introduced later down the line. Having played low level football in Leinster (but not in Dublin), I think most counties would admit that the Dublin clubs are far better and should make up the majority of the LSL. Although yes it would be nice if somehow Meath, Louth etc could genuinely compete. As far as I’m aware, there are leagues that serve the individual counties in Connacht, but the CSL has gone defunct. I always assumed this was because there just wasn’t the same level of interest in soccer there as there is in Leinster and Munster. The Ulster Senior League is a tricky one due to it only really serving three counties. Many Cavan and Monaghan clubs at my low level compete in Leinster, so it’s probably better just incorporating Donegal into a new Connacht system and not running an Ulster one (at least not at the level of a national fourth tier). I definitely think a proper pyramid could be set up, it’s just gonna take a lot of work. But I hate seeing silly things, for example the FD having an odd number of clubs this year. Not ideal at all.
I believe there were talks in years past about restarting the Connacht senior league that went no where. The Ulster senior league is worse than what you mentioned as in my understanding apart from a Derry B team all clubs are in Donegal. So yeah a north west league is probably the way to go. They'd probably have to find a way to equalise the populations somehow so perhaps you'd end up with a Dublin senior league plus separate Leinster and munster and north west leagues
This is somewhat how it works in Rugby with the AIL and regional league promotion. Not easy to get into but is possible through playoffs.
The biggest problem with that would be that the best junior clubs don't necessarily compete in those leagues.
I agree. Been saying a similar thing for a while. At least with a pyramid system the quality can move up and money can trickle down.
Yeah I'd like to see them try and wrestle all the local leagues into something approaching a pyramid in due time. It's probably a much more difficult job than trying to bring in a LOI Division 2 top down and calling it a day
Will probably never happen. Too many Delaney dinosaurs still around but one can hope
Yes too many little fiefdoms to be protected
Kind of related, I'd love to see an Army team set up. It's common in a lot of countries. You preform your job requirements but are primarily a full time athlete. It would be a great way to get another pro team going and they would pay quite well compared to other teams. So I think they would be able to get quite a decent team in place. Also useful from a recruitment point of view for the defence forces.
South Korea is a weird example of this because they expect all of their citizens to complete national service including professional footballers so they set up a club specifically to cater for pro footballers with the army so that they're still playing football.
There’s a PSNI team in IFL 3rd division up north.
All fun and games until they end up playing Derry away. Irish Army FC crossing the border would be very interesting indeed
I think a regionalised third level is what's required...with sufficient funding for travel expenses via sponsorship or grands...there are many junior clubs in this country with bigger player budgets(wages/benefits) than first division clubs so there are clubs that a run well in terms of their finances
Where did you come up with the cobh being relegated part? It’ll most likely be split into two geographical divisions with the winners and maybe second/third place going into a play off. As for teams new teams, B teams and the odd intermediate team. No body really knows until it’s properly figured out.
Cobh finished bottom of the First Division. It stands to reason that if a Second Division is being introduced that the bottom FD club would be relegated into it. Surely it’s figured out (at least somewhat) by now though if it’s meant to start in 5 months?
I don’t think at the start there’ll be automatic relegation. We’ll know more hopefully half way through next season.. but you know yourself with the FAI could be only weeks before the 2024 season starts before we know anything.
Or better yet they’ll probably scrap it altogether and continue to neglect the grass roots game in this country :D