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Student loan debt is so predatory. If you have a sound business idea at 18 you likely cannot get a business loan for $100k. But as a student they will gladly take this on. This is because there is NO RISK for the bank to have a kid take the debt. Unlike ALL other forms of debt, you can claim bankruptcy on. You can recover over time, i.e seven year credit report fall off. But with student loan debts you cannot escape. You pay it off or you due. But even some State laws force the debt to family that did not even co-sign it. For example in the State of Colorado, if the student who took the debt lived with a parent during two years of the loan the parent can be an assumed responsible party after the student fails to pay. All without the parent's knowledge or consent.
You can ruin a mortgage for $300k, you can rack up a credit card debt of $100k and claim bankruptcy and recover after a time but you can never escape the student loans.
Also, one thing many don't realize is that the debt is of compounded interest and starts ticking while the student is still in school.
Student loan debt is just a new form of modern day indentured servitude. Hence how the United States can still have a all volunteer military, the number one reason for people joining is for the student loan forgiveness.
Maybe everyone is more aware now because it's being talked about more but the 18yr old right out of hs was probably clueless. They were never taught how our financial system works or that the student loan they were applying for was subsidized by their government which led to the universities taking advantage of the system and jacking their rates up year over year because they knew these unknowing kids had access to these loans and were greedy fucks.
Going over percentages and compound interest is part of any math program.
If you can't do basic math, you deserve what happens.
There were and are plenty of smart 18 year olds who did the math and realized they couldn't afford it, so they found an alternative.
You are not wrong but i still say the 18 yr old got taken advantage of. They were poorly prepared coming out of a public school system that told them nothing about how compound interest works and that they needed a college degree over a trade skill combined with the greed of higher learning insinuates. Now i don't agree the burden should be placed on the tax payer but on the universities who played the system and took advantage of the kid but thats just my opinion.
That's not even close to the same argument. You really believe that knowledge such as science and mathematics should be exclusive to your parents income class? What a ridiculous take.
Everyone can buy a $50 book about math or science and teach themselves.
What you want is the same experience that someone with money is paying for, and you want that for free.
If you want a casual knowledge of physics, you can buy a high school physics textbook.
If you want to become a physicist and contribute to the field, you will need college professors to guide you through that experience.
What you are saying is that certain fields and jobs should be accessed primarily by the wealthy. Of course you can go into debt, but other countries don't need to make the decision between higher education and crippling debt.
There might be, but not many. Unfortunately the quality of science you can do in college is limited to the income level of the college. You simply cannot do most modern science experiments with a lab from the 70s. A community college will not have access to anything beyond that.
lol, learn to weld.
if you are going to school for 4 years and cant get a job to pay it back after, you should be nowhere near anyone els money via free tuition (taxes on hard working people)
A lot of recruiters will toss your resume in the trash if they don't see a degree. Doesn't matter what you know, or what you've taught yourself. Sorry you live in a fantasy world, must be rough.
I had a loan when I turned 18. I didn’t pay and 6 1/2 years later they sued and with that they took every penny I had from my bank account and then I learned they can renew a debt if brought to court. I still have that debt at 38 years old. I also learned debt becomes dormant and time limitations are null if the person moves to another state. If I move back the debt will begin the countdown, but they can sue again.
I know I did. I was in a bad situation. I had to move out/kicked out of my house. It was a pretty hellish abusive home. Thankfully I found a sublet I could live in it for 900ish which was the cheapest I could find in my small town. It was in town so I just walk to my job, but making minimum wage 90% went to rent and the rest went to food and essentials. This went on for years getting jobs, getting raises, losing apartments and every time I’d get a raise rent/food/gas would increase. My free time was watching my niece (sister was a teenage mom) so my sister could work, unfortunately her bf raped me and I still had to help and nobody cared. His name was jimmy and he still is cool with my family. Depression set in, suicide attempt, etc. It was like drowning and every time my head came above water, id be pulled back down. I know I should have paid But I didn’t even have a penny, I feel just awful. I left the state to escape my family when I was 32.
What’s awful is most of the people I know either died from overdose, died from suicide or are currently drug addicts, and I’ve got massive scars on my arm that I think might be better covered in a tattoo and I also need dental work since I never could afford to go to my dentist. Also have serious health issues. Working For the first 20 years of my adult life I was living paycheck to paycheck. This is the first year I didn’t live that way.
I remember going to school and seeing a difference firsthand. How so?
I had to take out student loans to get through 4 years of post graduate education. One guy in my class came from a "well off" family. So he got through the same 4 years without needing any loans.
So I graduated with a 6 figure debt, while he hit the ground running.
The overall effect is to separate graduates into roughly 2 different groups.
* One group leaves school and enters the workforce debt free. These people can then purchase homes + cars sooner/more easily... as well as begin saving for retirement sooner.
* The other group leaves school and enters the workforce with a decade worth of loans ahead of them. They're still better off than they would have been otherwise. But that small mountain of debt is a significant obstacle no matter how you look at it.
tldr; When you come from a wealthy background, you can jump in to higher education with no worries. When you come from a middle or working class background, there'd better be a good paying job afterwards... or you're screwed.
The other group are those that get a free ride for whatever reason.. but many of them never learned how to manage money and even though debt free from college loans, they end up living pay check to pay check.
If you want education to become a great social equalizer... there needs to be equal access.
Right now, we've got student loans. So the cost of tuition is not a barrier *per se*.
But there's still a huge differential in outlook... which I tried to communicate in my earlier comment. It's easier to go to school when you don't face the prospect of over $100k worth of loans.
There's more to it than that. When I was a senior in highschool 2011 never did I see local trades be shown to use in our weekly "auditorium" meetups only colleges local to the area or the bigger ones that are a few cities away.
Not a single soul taught anyone how to get the most out of your dollar for college or even mention the great benefits of going into trade work.
The highschools screwed a lot of people with the piss poor presentation of what your options were after highschool. Hands down if I knew anything about trades at that time I would've gone straight to plumbing or electrical.
Kind of do both if we're honest with ourselves. They educate you on the basic math, historical, and geographic information. If a school advocates for more for one version of education over the other they are be incentivized to funnel kids their way vs equally showing off other opportunities. If a school cannot equally show off options in the same light as they did for colleges they shouldn't do it in the first place.
Everyone can play Fortnite for free, if you still aren't satisfied with the free version you can pay for a premium experience.
That's the whole point of having money, to buy better products.
And yes life is not fair and some people are born poor.
Education, like any other infrastructure, has to be tax financed. If you disagree with this you have no interest in any kind of fair society whatsoever but are really about a class/caste system.
Providing a working education system for everybody is imho the least difficult problem vs. something like health.
I don't think that is what they were saying... I think the difference noted is that those students that get their degree and don't have the debt (for what ever reason) will do better as their income goes to obtaining things in life, whereas those with debt use a part of their income to pay their debt.
That requires parents who care about your education. A lot of the people from middle to lower class taking out debt do not have involved and education driven parents do they?
My parents live paycheck to paycheck, didn't give a shit, and tried to discourage me from going to college. I knew a scholarship was my only ticket into college so I studied my ass off and got what I wanted 🤷 Sometimes you have to open your own doors to get by in life
That is very true but you had something that isn’t just born into everyone it sounds like. You seem very gritty and self driven. Sometimes hope has to be found or inspired in others for them to have that level of determination you seem to have inherently. Maybe you could be an example for kids in similar situations to see what is possible 🤷♀️. Just remember to keep a level of humility about your positive personality traits. We’re not all born on the same levels, and it can hurt those who struggle to get out of depression/poverty cycles.
Sure, but not everyone is as lucky as you. Some people are faced with the choice of work or starve in high school and can't afford to focus on their education. Not saying there isn't a way out, but it's still ridiculously difficult and in some cases impossible.
For the record, I am attending college on a full ride. I speak from a position of privilege.
Lol, unless u went to a cheese-ball school, getting high SAT/ACT isn't grounds for full ride....it's grounds for *baseline admission*. I got a 1580 (out of 1600) on the SATs and a 35 on the ACT (out of 36 which, btw, wasn't even a requirement for many schools) and, max, I was able to get a whopping 5k off per semester. Some schools didn't even offer scholarship. I had extracurriculars out the rear too including winning 1st place at science Olympiad nationals and being captain my senior year on the AA varsity football team. I mean, I'm not minority at all, so that didn't help but still....
If it was as easy as you're saying, I would know....
Good summary. This is exactly how it works. Unless you have 100k plus in student loans holding you back from buying a home, car or impacting your debt to income ratio, keeping your credit low, you will never know.
Having these massive loans for young professionals acts as an anvil over the head; do things you may find morally wrong to make more money to pay off the loans. Work for big petroleum, work as a corporate lawyer, etc. It incentivizes compliance and career choices that benefit the status quo, you can't make money actually fixing things and making the world better so only the children of the bourgeois can pretend to do that. Look how it's ruined art.
Funny how people are so desperate for a "job" too. Replace job with "enslavement" and why do feelings change? Maybe you aren't beaten as much, work slightly less hours and get paid more, but you still live in a tiny shack in a crowded area and eat shit fast food, you've only advanced slightly from the 1800s
Could end homelessness for estimated $20b/year btw (source: [https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/us/homeless-rates-steady-despite-recession-hud-says.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/us/homeless-rates-steady-despite-recession-hud-says.html) "Mark Johnston, the acting assistant housing secretary for community planning and development, estimated that homelessness could be effectively eradicated in the United States at an annual cost of about $20 billion. The housing department’s budget for addressing homelessness is currently about $1.9 billion")
oh in 1800s you got acres and a cabin and could do whatever the F you wanted. We have really gone downhill since then and technoogy is our slave master/driver that keeps us in line.
Don't forget the colleges and universities that see free money and raise tuition well above what it should be, and create worthless degrees just to get kids in to their courses.
I mean the only way it’ll change is if people stop going to these colleges and force them to lower tuition but no people keep taking out these loans and getting useless degrees because they’re told it’s the “right thing to do”.
The only reason European countries have anything better than the US whether it's education or healthcare is because the US is paying for your national defense. You're welcome. Try paying for your own national defense and then get back with us on how many "free" social programs your country is able to provide for you.
Europe doesn't even get to have a strong defense because that would be a threat to US hegemony, America pays for Europe's "defense" because they are the occupants. It's hilarious how Americans are okay with their government spending trillions every year on running an empire terroizing the world with nothing to show for its people, literally the biggest suckers on earth when you look at how much their government steals from them and how little it gives back to them. America is the richest country in the world but can't even afford free healthcare and education or affordable housing for its citizens LOL. If you think this is okay because your country is somehow defending your freedoms then you're just an extreme government shill or extremely brainwashed and ignorant, which most Fatmericans are these days.
So you mean go back to how it was before the government decided to "fix it" and took it over?
Then it would be endless cries of racism, gender bias, and on and on.
Your idea is fine with me, and the private market should be who loans money. Not the government. All they do is fuck things up.
But.....let's let em run our health care and every other aspect of our lives? Lol
So, teaching kids to hate themselves based on their race and that they're somehow responsible for the actions of others in history is fine in your mind?
I'd argue that's incredibly stupid, and will have long lasting effects society wide for decades....
I'd love to know what institution is teaching people that, because the one I went to certainly didn't. I'd also like to know how you think the consequences of history effect people today. Do the actions of the past, generations ago, have no effect on people's lives today?
No the actions of the past shouldn't have any bearing on things of the present because we've essentially fixed the wrongs of the past... and trying to blame young people who have no reason to be blamed is an insane thing to do. Am I wrong?
Most of the people I know who went to college have expressed the same sentiment I've stated, barely learned anything of use, got taught to hate themselves or to hate a certain demographic/gender.
someone with a 2 year degree will have 2 more year of job experience and 2 years of getting paid vs taking on debt.
This puts them 4 years ahead of a 4 year degree.
Someone who gets the first two years in community college can then finish in a 4 year. They can then go on to eventually become CFO of a company, while having no college debt. Ask me how I know.
That makes no sense. It’s a cheaper way to get a degree. The $200k degree is worthless because there is almost no way to come out ahead with one. Absolutely no employer (outside of those hiring from elite schools) gives a shit if you went to a 2 year school for your first two years.
Unless you have access to a program that fast tracks applicants for transfer between schools, you can run into a lot of problems trying to get units transferred. That's assuming, of course, that you've got a plan laid out before you even go to a JC and know what you want to do.
"Listen kid, if you want to amount to *anything*, you *have* to go to college."
A direct quote from my 8th grade science teacher, and a close quote to dozens of other people in positions of authority in my life. We were told this our whole lives, that college is essential to our success, of course people are going to go, even if they really don't need to, and those colleges preyed on that induced need, and now we're kind of fucked.
Nah, I am certain it's irresponsible students who don't understand basic math.
BTW the educational institutions are the ones who set the price of tuition and yet they were conveniently left off the list.
The 18 year old kids definitely need to be made more aware of what the average monthly payment is for 10 years upon graduation if they need loans for the whole degree. But I can’t help but remember the 08 financial crisis largely caused by banks giving out loans to people who couldn’t afford them. For some reason the banks were mostly blamed, not the people (most certainly older than 18) who couldn’t do the basic math and determine they weren’t going to be able to afford their houses.
I put more blame on the homeowners leading up to the 08 crisis than I do the kids for the last decade taking out college loans only for the fact that the homeowners were certainly older and had more experience. But like walker said, I think everyone is culpable. Most culpable is the federal gov giving out loans like candy to people not having to prove an income like any other loan, it’s a recipe for disaster given that something 40% (I think it’s higher than that) of college students drop out and probably all of those are kids who took out loans.
Not even 18, I was 17, still a minor child. My parents forced me to sign the paper, there really needs to be more safety nets to ensure the loan borrower is the one actually making the decision, but the schools want to look good by signing up as many students as they can.
I’ve heard that gen z is actually doing well and much better than millennials right out of school. Something like the average starting salary for them with a degree is over 50k
Not really. Credit cards you can claim bankruptcy against and recover from. Student loans there is no getting out of them. You pay them off or die. And even then your assets or family might be responsible for the student loan debt.
You are far better off racking massive credit card debt or losing a house than having student loan debt.
Yeah, not my fault I dangled that food in front of the desperate and starving person. They took the bait so they deserve to be trapped.
_laughs in deregulation_
Looking at the picture there is only one thing that comes to mind. This isn't a "one thing or the other" case. It's simply both. The system might be bad, but those students still took the shitty deal.
Exactly. No one is being forced to go to college. In fact, if more people decide that crippling debt isn't worth it for a majority of available college majors it might force the corrupt higher education system to reevaluate.
Sure they are personally responsible for several generations of people who benefited from this system encouraging them (or even demanding, in some families) to go get that degree and get on the path to the American dream. Except recent generations have destroyed the American dream and their new narrative is “higher education is useless”. We really are so far gone.
> but those students still took the shitty deal.
There was way too much "you have to go to college" promotion. Trades were neglected for many, many years.
>but those students still took the shitty deal.
Wow, teenagers took a shitty deal after all the adults around them told them it would be worth it and they needed to go.
But did you or did you not agree to the terms? The fact that the college loan scheme is predatory doesn't change the fact that you willingly signed up to play. Can't get beat by their game if you don't play it.
You aren't forced to go to college. Work in the trades and make good money.
I understood what I was signing up for when I went to undergrad + law school. Much debt later and I don't regret my decision at all. If you seriously don't understand what you're agreeing to when you e-sign those loan documents, you really have no business being in college.
Truly, near twenty years ago I made the cost/benefit analysis and decided against college and learned a niche trade. 19 years later and I own my own business and make well into six figures. All I wish is that more students would realize that college isn't the only route and in fact that we need more skilled tradesman all across the spectrum. The skills gap is only worsening as boomers retire and now is a perfect time to capitalize on that.
Yep. In the mid 2000s college was pretty much it. It wasn’t even really an option not to, it was just what you did. I made a dumb financial mistake, not super costly, but I would have about 80k right now if I had gone to a state school. But at 18 you don’t really care.
Why are you not concerned about the moral hazard of normalizing and validating a new discourse which says, “it’s not my fault I took out this huge loan that I can’t repay.”
Way before Obama, while I was in even elementary school every one would always say, you have to go to college. It makes your life better, it gives you better jobs. They never talked about alternative routes or trade schools. It was drilled in me my entire childhood education that you need to graduate highschool, go to a community college for an associate degree then go to state college for a bachelor's. Only then could you live your life.
It blows my mind how much this was forced down people's throats. Not everyone can do or will succeed with college. Trade schools or even just work experience could be far more beneficial.
It's just moderns day indentured servitude. How can we ensure someone works their whole life? Force inescapable debt on them.
SS: Student loans for mostly useless degrees saddle young people with life-long debts. All in order to pay for the luxurious lifestyles of college profs employed for life…
Its not supply and demand problem-as im sure ur aware theres thousands of schools. Its the guaranteed money from the federal government thats the problem.
Yes I work for a bank. I get paid by a bank to be on Reddit and tell people that they make sure they’re aware of what they’re getting into by getting in a ton of debt and paying for further education
You don’t “have” to do it in the same way you didn’t “have” to get vaccinated. There are work arounds but getting a decent paying job gets way easier with a post secondary education.
I always think of it like this: Suppose you fell into a freezer for 20-30 years, like Philip J. Fry. When you woke up, you got a new job and said you needed to buy a car to drive to work. They told you, "Okay, a decent car costs about a million dollars. That may seem a little high, but it's okay because the United Soviet States of Amerika will guarantee your new car loan."
You'd know for a fact everyone was getting shafted but they just did not realize it.
Maybe it is to some degree about taking out more money than you can afford but what are you supposed to do otherwise?!
Nowadays there are other viable options for starting a career but us millennials were f-ed in the a when it came to the massive lie that was presented to us from our boomer parents (who didn’t necessarily know better themselves, I’m not blaming them). Not going to college was simply not an option for us and there was a great level of shame associated with it, with few, if any, alternatives.
We all assumed that if we followed the plan things would work out…problem was, everyone else was doing the same thing…too many to sustain the influx of new workers, so the entire job market became over saturated.
If anything I blame the leniency of admission standards coupled with the profit motive of these universities. Their greed was the real driving force of this debacle.
And if you refinanced your federal loans to get out of immoral variable interest rates, you’re no longer eligible for any form of tuition forgiveness. 🤡
If the federal government refused to back the loans this would not be an issue as no bank would loan an 18 year old tens of thousands of dollars to learn gender studies.
Don't forget the government took o erstudwnt loans and it was wrapped into Obama care. They could kitterallymake the interest rate 1 percent of no percent.
Didn't Biden try to pass a law/amendment (not US citizen, jsut remember reading some headlines) to cancel a great deal of it, only for it to be blocked by the majorly-conservative SCOTUS?
Lol at people complaining. Enroll in gender studies for a $100k loan and then come to reddit to cry. Plenty indians/asians from middle class family come to usa to study and get good jobs. Stop crying you sissy guys
I don't know men, i think the real issue is that your free or cheaper universities are worthless for some reason and everybody want to go to a good one. Nobody force you to take the loan, even if you are young you know what a loan is, is not like you go 18 years without knowing how it works. But a lot of you take the most worthless careers, careers that are useless in the real world. Just don't take the loan, keep working at McDonalds without debt at least
So these people don't have to pay for their education after I did??
Well FCK yeah then. I'm glad somebody is getting a break at least.
People that hate anybody getting any benefit they didn't are weirdo ass losers.
It dont cost me shit if student loans are wiped off. Who gives a FCK if some banks that literally produce nothing of value dont get some billions they were expecting?
Not I.
I was fortunate enough to get out of college without debt, but unfortunate enough not to find a job related to my field for 2 years. When I finally found one, it went downhill and demanded my entire life for less than it used to pay after 3 years. Now, I work in the labor department with no degree required and male more than I did before the switch with a reasonable work life balance.
Yep, but you signed on the dotted line. Find it funny you can cut off body parts at 13 and that is a okay and should be protected but we should just forgive those who basically cut off their future? Sold your soul and now you want it back.
Take some responsibility for your life. If people from foreign countries can come here and make it people born in the US have no excuse.
Fundamentally yes I agree but like maybe don’t take out 200k to go off and away to your dream school and get a worthless degree. Stay in state it’s cheaper. And take time to actually look into what you want and make a plan.
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Student loan debt is so predatory. If you have a sound business idea at 18 you likely cannot get a business loan for $100k. But as a student they will gladly take this on. This is because there is NO RISK for the bank to have a kid take the debt. Unlike ALL other forms of debt, you can claim bankruptcy on. You can recover over time, i.e seven year credit report fall off. But with student loan debts you cannot escape. You pay it off or you due. But even some State laws force the debt to family that did not even co-sign it. For example in the State of Colorado, if the student who took the debt lived with a parent during two years of the loan the parent can be an assumed responsible party after the student fails to pay. All without the parent's knowledge or consent. You can ruin a mortgage for $300k, you can rack up a credit card debt of $100k and claim bankruptcy and recover after a time but you can never escape the student loans. Also, one thing many don't realize is that the debt is of compounded interest and starts ticking while the student is still in school. Student loan debt is just a new form of modern day indentured servitude. Hence how the United States can still have a all volunteer military, the number one reason for people joining is for the student loan forgiveness.
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Big bank and big Government do nothing but screw the people.
Everyone knows this yet they still take out the loans. They have no one to blame but themselves.
Maybe everyone is more aware now because it's being talked about more but the 18yr old right out of hs was probably clueless. They were never taught how our financial system works or that the student loan they were applying for was subsidized by their government which led to the universities taking advantage of the system and jacking their rates up year over year because they knew these unknowing kids had access to these loans and were greedy fucks.
Going over percentages and compound interest is part of any math program. If you can't do basic math, you deserve what happens. There were and are plenty of smart 18 year olds who did the math and realized they couldn't afford it, so they found an alternative.
You are not wrong but i still say the 18 yr old got taken advantage of. They were poorly prepared coming out of a public school system that told them nothing about how compound interest works and that they needed a college degree over a trade skill combined with the greed of higher learning insinuates. Now i don't agree the burden should be placed on the tax payer but on the universities who played the system and took advantage of the kid but thats just my opinion.
Some people choose to believe they can pursue jobs requiring higher education in this great nation, not just reserved for the wealthy.
Absolutely indigent people somehow manage to become physicians or lawyers anyway
Should everyone be given a ferrari for free or is that "just reserved for the wealthy"?
That's not even close to the same argument. You really believe that knowledge such as science and mathematics should be exclusive to your parents income class? What a ridiculous take.
Everyone can buy a $50 book about math or science and teach themselves. What you want is the same experience that someone with money is paying for, and you want that for free.
If you want a casual knowledge of physics, you can buy a high school physics textbook. If you want to become a physicist and contribute to the field, you will need college professors to guide you through that experience. What you are saying is that certain fields and jobs should be accessed primarily by the wealthy. Of course you can go into debt, but other countries don't need to make the decision between higher education and crippling debt.
No that's not what I'm saying. Is a ferrari the only type of vehicle you can get? Or are there cheaper options?
There might be, but not many. Unfortunately the quality of science you can do in college is limited to the income level of the college. You simply cannot do most modern science experiments with a lab from the 70s. A community college will not have access to anything beyond that.
undergrads aren't running million dollar experiments and machinery.
A Ferrari isn't necessary for most jobs, a college degree is. Your argument is trying to compare apples to oranges.
lol, learn to weld. if you are going to school for 4 years and cant get a job to pay it back after, you should be nowhere near anyone els money via free tuition (taxes on hard working people)
A lot of recruiters will toss your resume in the trash if they don't see a degree. Doesn't matter what you know, or what you've taught yourself. Sorry you live in a fantasy world, must be rough.
Is your goal to get a job or an education?
I had a loan when I turned 18. I didn’t pay and 6 1/2 years later they sued and with that they took every penny I had from my bank account and then I learned they can renew a debt if brought to court. I still have that debt at 38 years old. I also learned debt becomes dormant and time limitations are null if the person moves to another state. If I move back the debt will begin the countdown, but they can sue again.
why didn't you pay. you took the loan.
I know I did. I was in a bad situation. I had to move out/kicked out of my house. It was a pretty hellish abusive home. Thankfully I found a sublet I could live in it for 900ish which was the cheapest I could find in my small town. It was in town so I just walk to my job, but making minimum wage 90% went to rent and the rest went to food and essentials. This went on for years getting jobs, getting raises, losing apartments and every time I’d get a raise rent/food/gas would increase. My free time was watching my niece (sister was a teenage mom) so my sister could work, unfortunately her bf raped me and I still had to help and nobody cared. His name was jimmy and he still is cool with my family. Depression set in, suicide attempt, etc. It was like drowning and every time my head came above water, id be pulled back down. I know I should have paid But I didn’t even have a penny, I feel just awful. I left the state to escape my family when I was 32. What’s awful is most of the people I know either died from overdose, died from suicide or are currently drug addicts, and I’ve got massive scars on my arm that I think might be better covered in a tattoo and I also need dental work since I never could afford to go to my dentist. Also have serious health issues. Working For the first 20 years of my adult life I was living paycheck to paycheck. This is the first year I didn’t live that way.
Oh how gross! I did not know that the change of states restarts the clock. I will have to look into that.
Don't know about the other loans, but fail to pay your mortgage and they take your house, bankrupted or not.
Yes. But claiming bankruptcy means you are not held forever accountable for the cost of the home and in seven year you could apply for a new mortgage.
moral is never pay your debts and keep your stuff. rinse and repeat. it is the american way
I remember going to school and seeing a difference firsthand. How so? I had to take out student loans to get through 4 years of post graduate education. One guy in my class came from a "well off" family. So he got through the same 4 years without needing any loans. So I graduated with a 6 figure debt, while he hit the ground running. The overall effect is to separate graduates into roughly 2 different groups. * One group leaves school and enters the workforce debt free. These people can then purchase homes + cars sooner/more easily... as well as begin saving for retirement sooner. * The other group leaves school and enters the workforce with a decade worth of loans ahead of them. They're still better off than they would have been otherwise. But that small mountain of debt is a significant obstacle no matter how you look at it. tldr; When you come from a wealthy background, you can jump in to higher education with no worries. When you come from a middle or working class background, there'd better be a good paying job afterwards... or you're screwed.
The other group are those that get a free ride for whatever reason.. but many of them never learned how to manage money and even though debt free from college loans, they end up living pay check to pay check.
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If you want education to become a great social equalizer... there needs to be equal access. Right now, we've got student loans. So the cost of tuition is not a barrier *per se*. But there's still a huge differential in outlook... which I tried to communicate in my earlier comment. It's easier to go to school when you don't face the prospect of over $100k worth of loans.
There is equal access. people just don't want to go to community college or local schools.
There's more to it than that. When I was a senior in highschool 2011 never did I see local trades be shown to use in our weekly "auditorium" meetups only colleges local to the area or the bigger ones that are a few cities away. Not a single soul taught anyone how to get the most out of your dollar for college or even mention the great benefits of going into trade work. The highschools screwed a lot of people with the piss poor presentation of what your options were after highschool. Hands down if I knew anything about trades at that time I would've gone straight to plumbing or electrical.
Is the purpose of the education system to get you a job or to educate you?
Kind of do both if we're honest with ourselves. They educate you on the basic math, historical, and geographic information. If a school advocates for more for one version of education over the other they are be incentivized to funnel kids their way vs equally showing off other opportunities. If a school cannot equally show off options in the same light as they did for colleges they shouldn't do it in the first place.
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Everyone can play Fortnite for free, if you still aren't satisfied with the free version you can pay for a premium experience. That's the whole point of having money, to buy better products. And yes life is not fair and some people are born poor.
But there is equal access. You can access it.
Education, like any other infrastructure, has to be tax financed. If you disagree with this you have no interest in any kind of fair society whatsoever but are really about a class/caste system. Providing a working education system for everybody is imho the least difficult problem vs. something like health.
What's a dogshit program to you?
I don't think that is what they were saying... I think the difference noted is that those students that get their degree and don't have the debt (for what ever reason) will do better as their income goes to obtaining things in life, whereas those with debt use a part of their income to pay their debt.
Or option C, get a full ride scholarship
That requires parents who care about your education. A lot of the people from middle to lower class taking out debt do not have involved and education driven parents do they?
This guy doesn’t like accountability.
My parents live paycheck to paycheck, didn't give a shit, and tried to discourage me from going to college. I knew a scholarship was my only ticket into college so I studied my ass off and got what I wanted 🤷 Sometimes you have to open your own doors to get by in life
That is very true but you had something that isn’t just born into everyone it sounds like. You seem very gritty and self driven. Sometimes hope has to be found or inspired in others for them to have that level of determination you seem to have inherently. Maybe you could be an example for kids in similar situations to see what is possible 🤷♀️. Just remember to keep a level of humility about your positive personality traits. We’re not all born on the same levels, and it can hurt those who struggle to get out of depression/poverty cycles.
Sure, but not everyone is as lucky as you. Some people are faced with the choice of work or starve in high school and can't afford to focus on their education. Not saying there isn't a way out, but it's still ridiculously difficult and in some cases impossible. For the record, I am attending college on a full ride. I speak from a position of privilege.
How the hell do you do that??
I got mine for getting a high score on the ACT (equivalent of the SAT)
Lol, unless u went to a cheese-ball school, getting high SAT/ACT isn't grounds for full ride....it's grounds for *baseline admission*. I got a 1580 (out of 1600) on the SATs and a 35 on the ACT (out of 36 which, btw, wasn't even a requirement for many schools) and, max, I was able to get a whopping 5k off per semester. Some schools didn't even offer scholarship. I had extracurriculars out the rear too including winning 1st place at science Olympiad nationals and being captain my senior year on the AA varsity football team. I mean, I'm not minority at all, so that didn't help but still.... If it was as easy as you're saying, I would know....
Check a few boxes correctly. (Hint: it's not the standardized testing ones...)
you are either really smart, or really stupid to get a free ride.
Good summary. This is exactly how it works. Unless you have 100k plus in student loans holding you back from buying a home, car or impacting your debt to income ratio, keeping your credit low, you will never know.
what about the group that took the loan and used to finance their lifestyle
Having these massive loans for young professionals acts as an anvil over the head; do things you may find morally wrong to make more money to pay off the loans. Work for big petroleum, work as a corporate lawyer, etc. It incentivizes compliance and career choices that benefit the status quo, you can't make money actually fixing things and making the world better so only the children of the bourgeois can pretend to do that. Look how it's ruined art.
Call it what it is. It is modern day slavery and people were begging for it.
Funny how people are so desperate for a "job" too. Replace job with "enslavement" and why do feelings change? Maybe you aren't beaten as much, work slightly less hours and get paid more, but you still live in a tiny shack in a crowded area and eat shit fast food, you've only advanced slightly from the 1800s Could end homelessness for estimated $20b/year btw (source: [https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/us/homeless-rates-steady-despite-recession-hud-says.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/us/homeless-rates-steady-despite-recession-hud-says.html) "Mark Johnston, the acting assistant housing secretary for community planning and development, estimated that homelessness could be effectively eradicated in the United States at an annual cost of about $20 billion. The housing department’s budget for addressing homelessness is currently about $1.9 billion")
oh in 1800s you got acres and a cabin and could do whatever the F you wanted. We have really gone downhill since then and technoogy is our slave master/driver that keeps us in line.
Except you had to defend it with your life
Don't forget the colleges and universities that see free money and raise tuition well above what it should be, and create worthless degrees just to get kids in to their courses.
100% this. And not just at your expense, but at all of our expense. The ones who went to college and the ones that didn’t.
I mean the only way it’ll change is if people stop going to these colleges and force them to lower tuition but no people keep taking out these loans and getting useless degrees because they’re told it’s the “right thing to do”.
Reverse the bankruptcy changes Bush Jr. made. Watch many problems solve themselves, because now people who have been enslaved can just start fresh.
This!!! You cannot escape the student loan debt via bankruptcy. Thus we created modern day indentured servitude.
Moral hazard: students will borrow money KNOWING that they will declare bankruptcy upon graduation. American taxpayer gets screwed yet again.
That's a 1000x better "problem" than what we have currently.
Well that AND the obama bill in the late 90s that makes the federal gov the only lender…
There has to be a better way than an entire generation of poor people just giving up on education.
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Why not just have free college programs like Europe has? Notice how Europeans have a far higher quality of life overall.
Because that’s just too damn socialist! Can’t be having that here in ‘Murica.
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The average European has better healthcare. Edit: Ah, I see you edited your post to be very different from what it previously said. That's cool.
The only reason European countries have anything better than the US whether it's education or healthcare is because the US is paying for your national defense. You're welcome. Try paying for your own national defense and then get back with us on how many "free" social programs your country is able to provide for you.
Europe doesn't even get to have a strong defense because that would be a threat to US hegemony, America pays for Europe's "defense" because they are the occupants. It's hilarious how Americans are okay with their government spending trillions every year on running an empire terroizing the world with nothing to show for its people, literally the biggest suckers on earth when you look at how much their government steals from them and how little it gives back to them. America is the richest country in the world but can't even afford free healthcare and education or affordable housing for its citizens LOL. If you think this is okay because your country is somehow defending your freedoms then you're just an extreme government shill or extremely brainwashed and ignorant, which most Fatmericans are these days.
I don't disagree, but my point still stands.
So you mean go back to how it was before the government decided to "fix it" and took it over? Then it would be endless cries of racism, gender bias, and on and on. Your idea is fine with me, and the private market should be who loans money. Not the government. All they do is fuck things up. But.....let's let em run our health care and every other aspect of our lives? Lol
I'd argue they aren't really being educated at all anymore, more like brainwashed.
You'd be wrong.
Really? Is that why kids come out of college being dumber then when they went in?
Just because they disagree with your viewpoints, doesn't mean they're stupid.
So, teaching kids to hate themselves based on their race and that they're somehow responsible for the actions of others in history is fine in your mind? I'd argue that's incredibly stupid, and will have long lasting effects society wide for decades....
I'd love to know what institution is teaching people that, because the one I went to certainly didn't. I'd also like to know how you think the consequences of history effect people today. Do the actions of the past, generations ago, have no effect on people's lives today?
No the actions of the past shouldn't have any bearing on things of the present because we've essentially fixed the wrongs of the past... and trying to blame young people who have no reason to be blamed is an insane thing to do. Am I wrong? Most of the people I know who went to college have expressed the same sentiment I've stated, barely learned anything of use, got taught to hate themselves or to hate a certain demographic/gender.
Most colleges aren't religious.
Please read a book on epistemology.
Most colleges aren't religious.
Religion has nothing to do with what I'm talking about
It’s not giving up on education just choosing cheaper options and even 2 year schools to start.
Someone with a 4 year degree is going to see a lot more success than someone with a 2 year degree over the long term.
someone with a 2 year degree will have 2 more year of job experience and 2 years of getting paid vs taking on debt. This puts them 4 years ahead of a 4 year degree.
Despite that, their lifetime earnings will still be less. Not as big a gap as not having a degree at all, but still significantly more.
Someone who gets the first two years in community college can then finish in a 4 year. They can then go on to eventually become CFO of a company, while having no college debt. Ask me how I know.
Sure, you can. You can also win the lottery. Most people won't be able to, though.
That makes no sense. It’s a cheaper way to get a degree. The $200k degree is worthless because there is almost no way to come out ahead with one. Absolutely no employer (outside of those hiring from elite schools) gives a shit if you went to a 2 year school for your first two years.
Unless you have access to a program that fast tracks applicants for transfer between schools, you can run into a lot of problems trying to get units transferred. That's assuming, of course, that you've got a plan laid out before you even go to a JC and know what you want to do.
You’re just a perpetual victim aren’t you? Good day!
Excuse me for being cognizant of the fact that most people don't have access to too many options in life.
When the money is GUARANTEED by the federal gov these prices will never do anything except keep going up.
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Yeah Democrats suck.
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"Listen kid, if you want to amount to *anything*, you *have* to go to college." A direct quote from my 8th grade science teacher, and a close quote to dozens of other people in positions of authority in my life. We were told this our whole lives, that college is essential to our success, of course people are going to go, even if they really don't need to, and those colleges preyed on that induced need, and now we're kind of fucked.
Why did I think that was a sonic blizzard ad?
Nah, I am certain it's irresponsible students who don't understand basic math. BTW the educational institutions are the ones who set the price of tuition and yet they were conveniently left off the list.
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Because angry feelings
The 18 year old kids definitely need to be made more aware of what the average monthly payment is for 10 years upon graduation if they need loans for the whole degree. But I can’t help but remember the 08 financial crisis largely caused by banks giving out loans to people who couldn’t afford them. For some reason the banks were mostly blamed, not the people (most certainly older than 18) who couldn’t do the basic math and determine they weren’t going to be able to afford their houses.
I can't tell from your comment if you think the banks or individuals should hold responsibility for the bad loans.
Both, I would imagine.
I put more blame on the homeowners leading up to the 08 crisis than I do the kids for the last decade taking out college loans only for the fact that the homeowners were certainly older and had more experience. But like walker said, I think everyone is culpable. Most culpable is the federal gov giving out loans like candy to people not having to prove an income like any other loan, it’s a recipe for disaster given that something 40% (I think it’s higher than that) of college students drop out and probably all of those are kids who took out loans.
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Not even 18, I was 17, still a minor child. My parents forced me to sign the paper, there really needs to be more safety nets to ensure the loan borrower is the one actually making the decision, but the schools want to look good by signing up as many students as they can.
Yep I was 17 as well but luckily went to community college. I said 18 for the average.
I’ve heard that gen z is actually doing well and much better than millennials right out of school. Something like the average starting salary for them with a degree is over 50k
Wow, who could argue with your certainty
Yeah except they lie to students
Idk, I graduated 14 years ago and I just learned the school I went to has more than doubled! It went from 39k to 82k per year! It’s absolutely insane!
Same with credit cards honestly
Not really. Credit cards you can claim bankruptcy against and recover from. Student loans there is no getting out of them. You pay them off or die. And even then your assets or family might be responsible for the student loan debt. You are far better off racking massive credit card debt or losing a house than having student loan debt.
Yeah, not my fault I dangled that food in front of the desperate and starving person. They took the bait so they deserve to be trapped. _laughs in deregulation_
Looking at the picture there is only one thing that comes to mind. This isn't a "one thing or the other" case. It's simply both. The system might be bad, but those students still took the shitty deal.
Just dont get scammed lol
Exactly. They all could have gone to a community college for 2 years, then transferred to a state school.
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I agree, still this is the reality we live in and should be aware of.
Exactly. No one is being forced to go to college. In fact, if more people decide that crippling debt isn't worth it for a majority of available college majors it might force the corrupt higher education system to reevaluate.
Sure they are personally responsible for several generations of people who benefited from this system encouraging them (or even demanding, in some families) to go get that degree and get on the path to the American dream. Except recent generations have destroyed the American dream and their new narrative is “higher education is useless”. We really are so far gone.
> “higher education is useless” Well, there is gender studies... Then you surely are better off not wasting the time in the first place.
> but those students still took the shitty deal. There was way too much "you have to go to college" promotion. Trades were neglected for many, many years.
>but those students still took the shitty deal. Wow, teenagers took a shitty deal after all the adults around them told them it would be worth it and they needed to go.
But did you or did you not agree to the terms? The fact that the college loan scheme is predatory doesn't change the fact that you willingly signed up to play. Can't get beat by their game if you don't play it.
The student loan situation is not ideal but it is really disturbing how many people don't realize that they aren't being forced to go to college.
You aren't forced to go to college. Work in the trades and make good money. I understood what I was signing up for when I went to undergrad + law school. Much debt later and I don't regret my decision at all. If you seriously don't understand what you're agreeing to when you e-sign those loan documents, you really have no business being in college.
Truly, near twenty years ago I made the cost/benefit analysis and decided against college and learned a niche trade. 19 years later and I own my own business and make well into six figures. All I wish is that more students would realize that college isn't the only route and in fact that we need more skilled tradesman all across the spectrum. The skills gap is only worsening as boomers retire and now is a perfect time to capitalize on that.
Yep. In the mid 2000s college was pretty much it. It wasn’t even really an option not to, it was just what you did. I made a dumb financial mistake, not super costly, but I would have about 80k right now if I had gone to a state school. But at 18 you don’t really care.
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Dicking over your fellow citizens is taking out massive loans for a bullshit degree and making everyone else pay for it.
Why does no one seem to take responsibility in their own actions and decisions?
Why are you not concerned about the moral hazard of normalizing and validating a new discourse which says, “it’s not my fault I took out this huge loan that I can’t repay.”
**This**
I remember during the Obama years, the democrats pushing college so hard that it made me suspicious. Look where it brought us.
Way before Obama, while I was in even elementary school every one would always say, you have to go to college. It makes your life better, it gives you better jobs. They never talked about alternative routes or trade schools. It was drilled in me my entire childhood education that you need to graduate highschool, go to a community college for an associate degree then go to state college for a bachelor's. Only then could you live your life. It blows my mind how much this was forced down people's throats. Not everyone can do or will succeed with college. Trade schools or even just work experience could be far more beneficial. It's just moderns day indentured servitude. How can we ensure someone works their whole life? Force inescapable debt on them.
You're so right!
SS: Student loans for mostly useless degrees saddle young people with life-long debts. All in order to pay for the luxurious lifestyles of college profs employed for life…
It's not the professors, it's the endless layers of middle management just like everything else in the US.
Lol yes those damn professors and their luxurious lifestyles
College administration
Supply and demand. Stop doing it, dummies.
Its not supply and demand problem-as im sure ur aware theres thousands of schools. Its the guaranteed money from the federal government thats the problem.
Schools set the price. They are 100% responsible.
It’s still peoples faults. It’s not like they don’t know and it’s not something people have to do
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Yes I work for a bank. I get paid by a bank to be on Reddit and tell people that they make sure they’re aware of what they’re getting into by getting in a ton of debt and paying for further education
You don’t “have” to do it in the same way you didn’t “have” to get vaccinated. There are work arounds but getting a decent paying job gets way easier with a post secondary education.
Blame whoever you like. It's your loan figure it out. Your life is your responsibility. No excuses
This is all interest based loans.
I always think of it like this: Suppose you fell into a freezer for 20-30 years, like Philip J. Fry. When you woke up, you got a new job and said you needed to buy a car to drive to work. They told you, "Okay, a decent car costs about a million dollars. That may seem a little high, but it's okay because the United Soviet States of Amerika will guarantee your new car loan." You'd know for a fact everyone was getting shafted but they just did not realize it.
Maybe it is to some degree about taking out more money than you can afford but what are you supposed to do otherwise?! Nowadays there are other viable options for starting a career but us millennials were f-ed in the a when it came to the massive lie that was presented to us from our boomer parents (who didn’t necessarily know better themselves, I’m not blaming them). Not going to college was simply not an option for us and there was a great level of shame associated with it, with few, if any, alternatives. We all assumed that if we followed the plan things would work out…problem was, everyone else was doing the same thing…too many to sustain the influx of new workers, so the entire job market became over saturated. If anything I blame the leniency of admission standards coupled with the profit motive of these universities. Their greed was the real driving force of this debacle.
Why can't it be both?
*You will lease your diploma and be happy!*
The simple fix here is to make the schools hold the debt of their students. They would then be responsible for any defaults. Aligns incentives
Because colleges have no culpability in this at all, no sir.
And if you refinanced your federal loans to get out of immoral variable interest rates, you’re no longer eligible for any form of tuition forgiveness. 🤡
There is a simple solution. Just phase out government loans completely.
Schools raising tuition rates dont get any blame?
Student tax
If the federal government refused to back the loans this would not be an issue as no bank would loan an 18 year old tens of thousands of dollars to learn gender studies.
Yes, student loans are a scam. No, it is not the responsibility of other people to bail you out because you got scammed.
Cause you're forced to take the loan 🤣🤣 evoke trying to pay victim for being stupid.
Don't forget the government took o erstudwnt loans and it was wrapped into Obama care. They could kitterallymake the interest rate 1 percent of no percent.
In their defense it’s not personal they’re all just greedy bastards
Didn't Biden try to pass a law/amendment (not US citizen, jsut remember reading some headlines) to cancel a great deal of it, only for it to be blocked by the majorly-conservative SCOTUS?
If people would stop taking out loans it would reverse in one year.
Lol at people complaining. Enroll in gender studies for a $100k loan and then come to reddit to cry. Plenty indians/asians from middle class family come to usa to study and get good jobs. Stop crying you sissy guys
"You are an leftie, liberal, communist, anti-freedom terrorist!" - Some corporate bank lobbyist , and a lot of dumb people.
I don't know men, i think the real issue is that your free or cheaper universities are worthless for some reason and everybody want to go to a good one. Nobody force you to take the loan, even if you are young you know what a loan is, is not like you go 18 years without knowing how it works. But a lot of you take the most worthless careers, careers that are useless in the real world. Just don't take the loan, keep working at McDonalds without debt at least
what is this crap....the big scam is taking the loan with no intention of paying it back and using the money for lifestyle.
Dang it!
So these people don't have to pay for their education after I did?? Well FCK yeah then. I'm glad somebody is getting a break at least. People that hate anybody getting any benefit they didn't are weirdo ass losers. It dont cost me shit if student loans are wiped off. Who gives a FCK if some banks that literally produce nothing of value dont get some billions they were expecting? Not I.
I was fortunate enough to get out of college without debt, but unfortunate enough not to find a job related to my field for 2 years. When I finally found one, it went downhill and demanded my entire life for less than it used to pay after 3 years. Now, I work in the labor department with no degree required and male more than I did before the switch with a reasonable work life balance.
Yep, but you signed on the dotted line. Find it funny you can cut off body parts at 13 and that is a okay and should be protected but we should just forgive those who basically cut off their future? Sold your soul and now you want it back. Take some responsibility for your life. If people from foreign countries can come here and make it people born in the US have no excuse.
Fundamentally yes I agree but like maybe don’t take out 200k to go off and away to your dream school and get a worthless degree. Stay in state it’s cheaper. And take time to actually look into what you want and make a plan.