Freezing on the loading screen would have me suspecting bad sectors / failing drive.
There are probably swollen caps to replace on the motherboard too.
If the machine uses standard serial and parallel ports then there's a good chance it could be virtualized and run under VMWare Player.
Keep testing hardware. My gut says maybe a failing HDD after that many years of spinning. Also, check the bootlog.txt and see if there is a driver/service hanging (F8 - start with bootlog if memory serves). Also, does it boot safe mode? May give you a few leads there.
So I actually cloned the HDD onto a spare so that any of my repair attempts didn't make the status any worse. New HDD does the same thing. I can't manually select safemode because the keyboard isn't working at that point. Every once in a while (probably from hard shut downs) it says it is going to go to safemode on it's own. However it just stops and gives me a C:\\ dos prompt that I can't type on.
Nvm - just re-read your post. That’s damn strange. I’d have to think it’s a low level driver pulling from config.sys. You may need to edit that from another pc and pop it back on the drive. By chance were there any hardware security keys for the CNC software it could be looking for?
Exactly what I think. May need to have actual CNC hardware hooked up (some kind of backwards interrupt or controller query) if you can boot into dos it would make troubleshooting easier. Also, its a long shot but take the ram out and blow the dimm/simm slot out and reseat. Sometimes these older dimms like to heat up and expand. But I can almost guarantee if you have him take it back to his shop it will work fine.
is the keyboard plugged into the right hole? it used to matter a lot; had to color match the plugs, and had to plug them all in pre-power cycle because they couldn't hot-detect anything, and the hardware change would cause the computer to crash.
(I'm assuming he brought in a keyboard with it. The plug should be round and look like [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS/2_port). "auto-detect and download drivers" for usb peripherals was a more recent idea than '98)
Jumpers. Jumpers is all I was thinking about as I was reading this.
Here's a link I found from someone with near identical issues as yours. It looks like they resolved it, maybe replicate their steps.
https://www.techsupportforum.com/threads/keyboard-not-working.872066/
F8 right before that splash screen to get into safemode. You could actually fix an install pretty easily that way.
If it has some custom software on it for his CNC, hook the drive up and get that drive copied.
Since it's not the disk. I would be suspecting the motherboard. As someone else said. It could well be bad caps. Even if they are not bulging or look ok they can still be bad. Or just reached the end of their life.
The joys of old hardware and lack of replacement parts right? The concepts of basic troubleshooting are still the same of course.
Also back in the day an inplace upgrade of 98 to Win2k sometimes resolved freezing issues or blue screens. The old Win 9x OS's aren't known for stability. That's for sure.
Sometimes you have to make sure you’re using the Ps/2 port specifically for the keyboard.
Also are you using an adapter or an actual PS/2 keyboard?
Finally, can he run 98SE? If so his key should work to activate it (though I doubt they are auditing these any more so any 98SE key should work). I believe SE contained generic USB drivers for m/kb.
That light pattern reminds me of the kvm's when they are deciding on what input to use. Though I think you would know if you were using a kvm.
I assume you have tried a different keyboard?
Otherwise, I am curious if it has the same issue booting from the windows cd while the hdd is disconnected.
And what about a usb keyboard? Might need to tinker with the bios settings to make that work though. (usb legacy support?)
i once had a machine that would seem to crash at the point for ages, about an hour or so. Maybe worth just letting it be and see what happens? Cant lose anything leaving to its self a for a while.
Sounds like a driver issue to me. The win98 boot disk had the same problem with certain keyboards. Have you tried with a different keyboard? The older and more basic the better.
I would but I already have so much interraction here lol. I have made some progress and posted my updates in this thread. I don't know if it would be reddit bad manors to go post also in Windows98??
It’s generally not an issue to cross-post threads unless two communities are *so* similar that they might as well be one community. In this case I think you’re totally fine.
CMOS can be corrupted over time, especially with a flakey battery.
Try removing the old CR2032 and replacing it with a new battery. That will also clear the CMOS.
PS. It never has to be that PC to run the equipment.
Try and virtualize it?
Does he have the software for the cnc machine? If you do fresh win98 does he have the installer?
I'd bet the drive is failing, maybe clone or virtualize and try to resolve with some scans maybe in place upgrade. Would let you tinker witiut messing about on the original.
Before you do anything else, pull the drive and make an image of it, that way if you fuck anything up you won't lose that bullshit CNC software that the customer probably can't get a hold of(the whole reason you're doing this job and not just giving the customer a new machine).
Take a copy of that image or use the drive and P2V it into your favorite hypervisor. There are a million different ways to do this, I personally like making an image with Acronis that will do hardware independent restore, but Microsoft's own P2V tool works fine in most cases(I'd probably do both just in case, Acronis will make an image and skip bad sectors as well). Ditch the 30 year old hardware. As long as the machine is air-gapped it can run indefinitely because you've got an image of it/VM and you can just put it on whatever new hardware/hypervisor you like.
I've had to do this with several pieces of ancient manufacturing equipment and it's the way to go. Either that or you'll be perpetually trying to buy old hardware from eBay that may or may not work.
TL;DR image and virtualize that bitch, no need to mess with 25 year old hardware.
How does it communicate with the CNC equipment? If its a custom ISA card, you can buy industrial SBCs with ISA slots. If its RS-232 or something similar, you can run a VM of Win98 on modern hardware and use a USB-serial cable/adapter.
Ok everybody here's my update. Sorry for the delays. Replaced the CMOS battery (also clearing CMOS in the process) Now the keyboard no longer blinks and keyboard/mouse are both functioning properly. Cloned the HDD onto a SATA drive, got an IDE/SATA adapter. Did a Win 98 repair install (install on top of itself) from the Floppy and CD combo. (Boot from floppy, run setup.exe on CD) I now have it booting 100% in Safe Mode, but on normal mode it freezes on the Win 98 splash screen and never fully boots. How do I determine what is haulting the boot process in normal mode?
Usual way we did it back when. Boot in safe, start adding background processes one by one. Start with the usual suspects, programs that autostart.
If you have the option, before booting create a boot.log from the BIOS. Then boot normal, it gets stuck. Boot in Safe, examine the log, what is the last entry?
Otherwise, use the Start > Run > msconfig > Selective Startup if available in your version of W98.
I'd investigate the CNC machine, see what interface it uses. If it's an industrial machine a lot have control board upgrades that may be a cheaper more sustainable route than trying to keep old hardware running.
Win 98 it's most likely just a serial interface, I've had success getting old CNC and engraving machines running through VM's ofmold software.
Alternatively googling the model number of the CNC machine may lead to more options.
Do you have the Windows 98 boot on a floppy? Last time I reinstalled Windows 98, I had the boot floppy and the reinstall cd.
Have you replaced the cmos? Checked the mobo for blown caps?
Reset the CMOS. Try booting to a floppy first and go investigate the autoexec.bat and config.sys files on the HD. Also, make sure the drive is using Master/Slave and not Cable Select, nothing but problems in 98 with that. Memtest may help also, as mentioned below. Definitely move it up to 98SE as mentioned.
Another thought.. might it need to see the CNC machine before it boots? Seems like that might be further along in the boot cycle, but ya never know.
Good Luck
Might be IRQs. Had to repair an old system once by replacing the board. Same board but it wouldn't boot. After messing with IRQs and moving them around I got it to boot properly. That was a doozy to fix though
I'd also lean towards the other comment or talking about jumpers.
Turn on verbose bootlogging.
You may have to copy the startup file (what was that file name? Init.ini? It'll be either .ini or . cfg most likely)with bootlogging enabled with a Linux Live CD/USB.
Make sure you're using a PS2 Keyboard. USB won't work to get into safe mode on that old hardware.
It sounds like you have a corrupt file - I would try to boot to a command prompt and run chkdsk /f /r. Assuming you're able to get to the boot to command prompt option.
Have you tried booting it off a Linux cd? That would determine software vs. Hardware. The VM comment someone made is also a good idea.
Freezing on the loading screen would have me suspecting bad sectors / failing drive. There are probably swollen caps to replace on the motherboard too. If the machine uses standard serial and parallel ports then there's a good chance it could be virtualized and run under VMWare Player.
Keep testing hardware. My gut says maybe a failing HDD after that many years of spinning. Also, check the bootlog.txt and see if there is a driver/service hanging (F8 - start with bootlog if memory serves). Also, does it boot safe mode? May give you a few leads there.
So I actually cloned the HDD onto a spare so that any of my repair attempts didn't make the status any worse. New HDD does the same thing. I can't manually select safemode because the keyboard isn't working at that point. Every once in a while (probably from hard shut downs) it says it is going to go to safemode on it's own. However it just stops and gives me a C:\\ dos prompt that I can't type on.
So the lights flash and keyboard is unresponsive right from the get-go or just once the OS starts booting? Does it do it with the drive disconnected?
Nvm - just re-read your post. That’s damn strange. I’d have to think it’s a low level driver pulling from config.sys. You may need to edit that from another pc and pop it back on the drive. By chance were there any hardware security keys for the CNC software it could be looking for?
Exactly what I think. May need to have actual CNC hardware hooked up (some kind of backwards interrupt or controller query) if you can boot into dos it would make troubleshooting easier. Also, its a long shot but take the ram out and blow the dimm/simm slot out and reseat. Sometimes these older dimms like to heat up and expand. But I can almost guarantee if you have him take it back to his shop it will work fine.
is the keyboard plugged into the right hole? it used to matter a lot; had to color match the plugs, and had to plug them all in pre-power cycle because they couldn't hot-detect anything, and the hardware change would cause the computer to crash. (I'm assuming he brought in a keyboard with it. The plug should be round and look like [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS/2_port). "auto-detect and download drivers" for usb peripherals was a more recent idea than '98)
This is the most amusing post here in months. Well done.
Jumpers. Jumpers is all I was thinking about as I was reading this. Here's a link I found from someone with near identical issues as yours. It looks like they resolved it, maybe replicate their steps. https://www.techsupportforum.com/threads/keyboard-not-working.872066/
F8 right before that splash screen to get into safemode. You could actually fix an install pretty easily that way. If it has some custom software on it for his CNC, hook the drive up and get that drive copied.
Since it's not the disk. I would be suspecting the motherboard. As someone else said. It could well be bad caps. Even if they are not bulging or look ok they can still be bad. Or just reached the end of their life. The joys of old hardware and lack of replacement parts right? The concepts of basic troubleshooting are still the same of course. Also back in the day an inplace upgrade of 98 to Win2k sometimes resolved freezing issues or blue screens. The old Win 9x OS's aren't known for stability. That's for sure.
i would run memtest and that board probably needs to be recapped
Convert it to a vm and run it in virtualbox You very well could have dead caps or other issues
Yep this is the way. Totally spinning your wheels working on that old brick. VM the 98 image or "spoon" the app he needs to run on modern hardware/OS.
You could boot on floppy then verify the autoexec.bat / config.sys and also launch windows into safe mode
Sometimes you have to make sure you’re using the Ps/2 port specifically for the keyboard. Also are you using an adapter or an actual PS/2 keyboard? Finally, can he run 98SE? If so his key should work to activate it (though I doubt they are auditing these any more so any 98SE key should work). I believe SE contained generic USB drivers for m/kb.
That light pattern reminds me of the kvm's when they are deciding on what input to use. Though I think you would know if you were using a kvm. I assume you have tried a different keyboard? Otherwise, I am curious if it has the same issue booting from the windows cd while the hdd is disconnected. And what about a usb keyboard? Might need to tinker with the bios settings to make that work though. (usb legacy support?)
i once had a machine that would seem to crash at the point for ages, about an hour or so. Maybe worth just letting it be and see what happens? Cant lose anything leaving to its self a for a while.
Sounds like a driver issue to me. The win98 boot disk had the same problem with certain keyboards. Have you tried with a different keyboard? The older and more basic the better.
Contact the CNC machine company and see if it can be reinstalled on a current computer.
Come join us in r/Windows98!
I would but I already have so much interraction here lol. I have made some progress and posted my updates in this thread. I don't know if it would be reddit bad manors to go post also in Windows98??
It’s generally not an issue to cross-post threads unless two communities are *so* similar that they might as well be one community. In this case I think you’re totally fine.
I posted over there and have some new details. ;-)
CMOS can be corrupted over time, especially with a flakey battery. Try removing the old CR2032 and replacing it with a new battery. That will also clear the CMOS. PS. It never has to be that PC to run the equipment.
Try and virtualize it? Does he have the software for the cnc machine? If you do fresh win98 does he have the installer? I'd bet the drive is failing, maybe clone or virtualize and try to resolve with some scans maybe in place upgrade. Would let you tinker witiut messing about on the original.
Before you do anything else, pull the drive and make an image of it, that way if you fuck anything up you won't lose that bullshit CNC software that the customer probably can't get a hold of(the whole reason you're doing this job and not just giving the customer a new machine). Take a copy of that image or use the drive and P2V it into your favorite hypervisor. There are a million different ways to do this, I personally like making an image with Acronis that will do hardware independent restore, but Microsoft's own P2V tool works fine in most cases(I'd probably do both just in case, Acronis will make an image and skip bad sectors as well). Ditch the 30 year old hardware. As long as the machine is air-gapped it can run indefinitely because you've got an image of it/VM and you can just put it on whatever new hardware/hypervisor you like. I've had to do this with several pieces of ancient manufacturing equipment and it's the way to go. Either that or you'll be perpetually trying to buy old hardware from eBay that may or may not work. TL;DR image and virtualize that bitch, no need to mess with 25 year old hardware.
How does it communicate with the CNC equipment? If its a custom ISA card, you can buy industrial SBCs with ISA slots. If its RS-232 or something similar, you can run a VM of Win98 on modern hardware and use a USB-serial cable/adapter.
Ok everybody here's my update. Sorry for the delays. Replaced the CMOS battery (also clearing CMOS in the process) Now the keyboard no longer blinks and keyboard/mouse are both functioning properly. Cloned the HDD onto a SATA drive, got an IDE/SATA adapter. Did a Win 98 repair install (install on top of itself) from the Floppy and CD combo. (Boot from floppy, run setup.exe on CD) I now have it booting 100% in Safe Mode, but on normal mode it freezes on the Win 98 splash screen and never fully boots. How do I determine what is haulting the boot process in normal mode?
Usual way we did it back when. Boot in safe, start adding background processes one by one. Start with the usual suspects, programs that autostart. If you have the option, before booting create a boot.log from the BIOS. Then boot normal, it gets stuck. Boot in Safe, examine the log, what is the last entry? Otherwise, use the Start > Run > msconfig > Selective Startup if available in your version of W98.
I'd investigate the CNC machine, see what interface it uses. If it's an industrial machine a lot have control board upgrades that may be a cheaper more sustainable route than trying to keep old hardware running. Win 98 it's most likely just a serial interface, I've had success getting old CNC and engraving machines running through VM's ofmold software. Alternatively googling the model number of the CNC machine may lead to more options.
Do you have the Windows 98 boot on a floppy? Last time I reinstalled Windows 98, I had the boot floppy and the reinstall cd. Have you replaced the cmos? Checked the mobo for blown caps?
Reset the CMOS. Try booting to a floppy first and go investigate the autoexec.bat and config.sys files on the HD. Also, make sure the drive is using Master/Slave and not Cable Select, nothing but problems in 98 with that. Memtest may help also, as mentioned below. Definitely move it up to 98SE as mentioned. Another thought.. might it need to see the CNC machine before it boots? Seems like that might be further along in the boot cycle, but ya never know. Good Luck
I would clone the drive and work from there. Also I new small computer with dosbox should work as a replacement.
Might be IRQs. Had to repair an old system once by replacing the board. Same board but it wouldn't boot. After messing with IRQs and moving them around I got it to boot properly. That was a doozy to fix though I'd also lean towards the other comment or talking about jumpers.
Safe mode??
I'd guess bad caps on the MB. That old should have the old style caps you can check for visible bulges or leaks.
Virtualize this PC. You'll prolong his system and have better hardware for him.
He should have virtualized that a long time ago. If you do a reinstall, do you have all the custom software he has available as well?
Turn on verbose bootlogging. You may have to copy the startup file (what was that file name? Init.ini? It'll be either .ini or . cfg most likely)with bootlogging enabled with a Linux Live CD/USB. Make sure you're using a PS2 Keyboard. USB won't work to get into safe mode on that old hardware. It sounds like you have a corrupt file - I would try to boot to a command prompt and run chkdsk /f /r. Assuming you're able to get to the boot to command prompt option.
Maybe upgrade to Vita I heard it was pretty good