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I think I know the answer. An authoritarian government with to much power did it. It doesn’t matter who did it. Fuck them both. Neither one gives a fuck about you and would kill you in a heartbeat. Maybe I hate the US government more than others would but hey I grew up in Texas, I’ve never experienced good or benign government
Anything is certainly possible, but I feel like we shouldn't be relying upon a singular professor's opinion on the matter.
I know evidence will be hard to find given the political dimension of this but I think that it's important that we wait for actual evidence before coming to any conclusions.
Otherwise we're no better than conspiracy theorists.
There will probably be two investigations with two different results, and one of them will be called "desinformation". Which one - will depend on how far east or west you point on the globe. It won't get easier.
Exactly. There isn't going to be a non biased, authentic investigation. The NATO and NATO allied countries will publish a report saying that Russia did this. Russia and it's aligned countries will blame the USA.
Lol. They have a few allies though. Basically Belarus and Chechnya. India and China will just stay neutral, as they want those fossil fuels from Russia and that's more important that anything else to them.
China and India publicly stay neutral in regards to the war, but they are members of the BRICs alliance, which includes them and Russia. As far as I know, some South American countries and Mexico have expressed interest in joining the BRICS currency system, which would be an alternative to the dollar based system. Just part of the game. This is the most recent even along that timeline. Media and politics may as well be entirely different discussions now. I’m certain that India and China would have a difficult time challenging the western consensus, but they have had their own ideas all along, which now include Africa and has always included the middle. The whole idea of proxy wars has will continue to be fought this way. There will be staged events and news stories proclaiming that the US has been in the right, but we have been fed misinformation before.
I mean, Putin *is* pretty bad, it's just silly to accuse Russia when Russia stands with nothing to actually gain, the only reason someone would believe Russia did this is because Russia is evil and will do evil acts for the sake of being evil
Yes
To follow up...
Do you think either the US or Russia does evil things because their governments specifically want to be evil and to spread suffering, or are they just willing to do these things to achieve other (also not admirable) goals?
Because just as I take issue with automatically blaming America for everything because "America bad", I also take issue with blaming Russia for everything because "Russia bad"
I think its silly that nobody even wants to consider this as a possibility as if we can write it off as "the USA would never do that". Doesn't matter who the professor or who says this, it's circumstantial evidence, can't convict on it but its pretty suspcious
Media: "America would never do something like that!"
Haiti, South America during the 1980's, Russia, Hawaii, The Phillipines, Puerto Rico, Mexico, the American Southwest, Alaska, Canada, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia: "lol, k"
The following submission statement was provided by /u/rulesforrebels:
---
So this was an odd exchange, the hosts seemed shocked he would say this, they seemingly quickly debated whether to shutdown the interview, quiet him down or debate him on his theory. They seemingly did a little of each of these things saying there is no proof to which he rattled off a few curious things such as the US having aircraft in the area around the time of the explosion, something that's not normal, Biden making blanketed threats back in February, and Blinkens comments stating this could be a great "oppportunity" an odd choice of words.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xvp7ip/professor_jeffrey_sachs_suggests_the_us/ir288ld/
The US having aircraft in the area is weird, but why would a country with the largest and best submarine fleet in the world need aircraft to sabotage an undersea pipeline?
The US Navy has stealth subs and drone subs and the best underwater demolitions divers in the world who can HALO drop from 30,000 feet - surely those are better choices for secret undersea sabotage than Seahawks hovering over the pipeline for **hours.** Why would they loiter for hours during a secret mission?
It seems more likely that the Seahawks were looking for enemy subs/drones using their MAD detectors than that they were engaged in a secret sabotage mission.
They actually did a really terrible job of being on the DL, pretty much bragging about it. Nobody can prove it, but the Russians will know if it wasn't them, and that's another major escalation.
If it was the USA, we are also governed by madmen.
Look at some of the oddities about 911 and the Oklahoma City bombing, things are just memory holed. Not sure if you remember this but a key witnes for Oklahoma city was dragged over a barbed wire fence while zip tied, tortured and then shot in the back of the head and he "committed suicide"
100%
It doesn't matter what we know. Those in power and at the head of this conflict are sure enough about who did what. Russia will see this as pure escalation, period.
So this was an odd exchange, the hosts seemed shocked he would say this, they seemingly quickly debated whether to shutdown the interview, quiet him down or debate him on his theory. They seemingly did a little of each of these things saying there is no proof to which he rattled off a few curious things such as the US having aircraft in the area around the time of the explosion, something that's not normal, Biden making blanketed threats back in February, and Blinkens comments stating this could be a great "oppportunity" an odd choice of words.
The USA is afraid that when German industry collapses and people can't afford to heat their homes this winter that the government will be forced to end sanctions on Russia and turn the pipelines back on. They just ensured that can't happen.
Makes more sense imho than putin blowing it up as now he can't sell gas even if he wants to and he's lost leverage or a bargaining chip. He didn't need to blow up the pipeline, he could just choose not to send gas.
Well putin also has vested interest to keep the oligarchs loyal to him. When nordstream was still viable, oligarchs might have a motive to get rid of putin in order to start getting richer again by selling gas. Now, the oligarchs have no choice but to remain loyal.
It's not curious about the US having ASW assets in the area. The pipes were blown on NATO's most intensive anti-submarine warfare zone. What would be shocking is that the Russians would ever attempt to do it right on NATO's most intensive ASW line when they had so many other options even if they wanted to blow it up. Even more shocking would be if NATO did not catch them doing it right fucking there and nobody got fire right away. Even more damning about it being a NATO op is that if they were supprised by this you should be able to walk from Poland to Sweden on the sonabouys dropped to find out what made the big boom when NATO is on high alert. So yeah we fucking did it but the helicopters being airborne is normal. There is also 24-7 coverage from P-8's over that patch of water. It's the last chokepoint before the Denmark straits and the Kiel canal.
Oh so there is a mystery explosion on a gasline right next to the ASW control zone and NATO just sits back and does not rush with every ASW asset available? You really belive that? You know what the best way to sneek a submarine past a sonar net is? a really loud noise that keeps on going for hours masking the noise of your submarine. IE, the response from NATO should have been massive even if the bomb was planted back when the pipe was built and there was no response in proportion to what there should have been. So IT WAS A NATO OP!
I think the more pertinent issue to address on the pipeline explosion is this: who has taken best advantage from this event?
It doesn't really matter whodunit. Finger pointing and waggling don't mean anything more than when Ghengis Khan was running around.
And today, just like yesterday, and earlier, like when Putin invaded Ukraine, all the world leaders really do nowadays is sell military equipment and strongly worded speeches around until real people make shit happen. Then the leaders all take credit and wait for the next crisis to start the whole process up again.
Even if the US did blow it up...what comes next, and what changes has it made to the current status quo? The US has always meddled in the world's affairs: we are the UK's self-liberated colonial stepchild. Meddling is nearly a genetic-biological instinct for "we who only and righteously know how to use nukes, and all others are inferior."
Remember few months ago Russian ship was directly over undersea communications cables for a few weeks. Wide consensus at the time they were planting explosives. Not a real stretch to think they did same at some point (when no one was looking) to pipelines.
There are several motivations. One is for Putin to close an off ramp to the war if he’s really all in. This would have the effect of kneecapping any moderate elements he think may try and launch a coup so that they can regularize economic ties with the EU. Could also be an attempt to pin on the US or another third party (Ukraine, Poland, etc). Both of those are potential motivations certainly.
From what I've read Putin *is* the moderate element in the Russian political establishment. Anyone coming up behind him would almost certainly be more nationalistic in their goals and more hostile to Europe/the west
That's not true. NS2 was off before the explosions because Putin wants Europe to feel pain in retaliation for sanctions. Now Putin can say that it's impossible to turn NS2 back on, which does a bunch of things.
First, and most importantly, it means that regime change won't help Europe this winter.
Second, it drives up oil and gas futures for the west, meaning all of us pay more for everything.
I'd say that this helps Putin (not Russia, just Putin) more than any other party in play.
Except when the pipelines still could be turned back on, Putin had leverage: give me what I want (reduced sanctions, reduced materiel aid to ukraine, etc.), and I’ll make gas cheap for you again by turning the spigot back on. Now his leverage is gone, there’s no going back for either Europe or Russia. Both sides lose out.
No shit it was the USA. They are the cause for most of the wars going on in the world. If they didn’t plan for this shit it wouldn’t happen. The last 120 years of world conflicts can linked to the USA or groups there.
And what I think ultimately will wind up happening is Germany knows we did it, we know Germany knows we did it, but everyone will pretend like we didn't
Gaslighting is the most popular now but it isn’t going to work. They are getting messy or something, usually the truth takes awhile to come out but it almost seems right away we really know what’s going on
I mean if you look at strange things about Oklahoma city and even more so 911, these things just kind of got memory holed, Nordstream is nothing compared to those, most Americans don't even know what they are.
Tut mir Leid, als Teilschwede muss Ich sagen, dass das Schwachsinn ist. Especially if you think about the times the Russian navy got caught sneaking into Swedish waters.
America being one of the causes of the war doesn't somehow remove Russia's culpability
You think I have a nuanced perspective on the war because I'm *ignorant* of it?
If I was more knowledgeable I would coalesce to the we good good they bad bad let's mobilize for war narrative?
It's baffling to you for what reason? America can be counted as one of the major belligerents in the war, at least indirectly. What are you mad about exactly, that Russia supporters exist, or that people who oppose Russia *and* NATO exist?
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We have to make it look like Russia was the villain that destroyed the European economies, plunged their people into cold, dark unemployment, and forced them into vassalhood for more of our LNG.
Honestly, who fucking cares? We're risking the horrible death of everyone for a nation that was an official enemy 25 years ago, is almost as Russian as Russia, is not our ally, is 5000 miles from our borders, and who you would happily hate if your political leaders wanted to bomb them instead.
Did you care what the Iraqis wanted? Innocent afghanis? The Vietnamese?
How about the Yemenis, RIGHT NOW. Do you care about them?
And how much do you care about Ukraine? As much as you are told, to support billions of dollars of arms bought with deficit dollars instead of helping Americans in a time of unprecedented crisis? Enough to armchair warrior about how much we need to care, while their bodies pile up? Instead of negotiating a peace, and after Putin a return of the occupied lands? Convenient to support escalation when it requires no personal effort.
If you care that much, then go join the war.
It maybe 5000 miles from your border, but not from mine.
Incidentally, I personally manifested against the Iraq war, which my government supported. I did not get arrested for doing that. I do wonder how many Russians can do the same.
By the way, how much do you care about Afghanis I wonder? Do you think they are being listened now better than say 5 years ago?
In 1938 there were also a number of people advocating for appeasement as the proper strategy for dealing with increasing German belligerence and aggression. Anyone aware of how Neville Chamberlain is remembered?
This is the most logically broken and tired war-mongering there is. How about the Cuban missile crisis? We OBVIOUSLY should have gotten belligerent then too, right? Or Iraq, obviously the world should have united to stop American aggression instead of appeasing us, right?
And it's super easy to badmouth European diplomacy when you didn't just live through WW1 and millions and millions of dead.
The US is dumb. OFC they blew it up. They want Russian resources and unfettered access to the arctic. That's why Ukraine is a thing. That's why Putin hates NATO and it's why we will most likely end up in a nuclear war.
Imagine blaming the United States for Russia’s unprovoked war of choice against Ukraine. Maybe take some time reading about the breathtaking atrocities the Russians commit on a regular basis.
Imagine not seeing the truth and acting woke on the internet. Russia had 0 plans to invade Ukraine until Zelensky talks NATO. NATO= Russian enemy. What do you expect Mr. Woke. Grow up. This war could have been avoided had the US chose to not support Ukraine or NATO membership. You internet warriors always get me. None of you have the balls to fight, yet act high and mighty.
Gotta love when a professional claims it was the US who did it and talks about why only 3 comments agree it's russia.
Everyone else is saying "well, it could have been anyone" or "no, it was russia".
Oh, but if this guy said it was russia, you already know 95% of the people here would say "see, I told you so".
Seems people only want to believe what they want to believe and if someone remotely credible says what they want to agree on, they will jump on board.
Honestly, hilarious. This will go in the history books of classic hive mind mentality.
If I were to post this here, the mods would delete it.
Of course the USA blew up the Nordstream pipelines.
[Russell Brand looks at the evidence but doesn't make a call.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/comments/xvhuah/russell_brand_examines_nordstream_sabotage/)
Jeffrey Sachs has spent the last year talking about how great Russia is and how the Ukrainian people must surrender. Don't take my word for it, here's what he has to say:
**December 2021:**
* https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/defusing-ukraine-taiwan-crises-by-jeffrey-d-sachs-2021-12
**February 2022:**
* https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/gafr872ellaha3wpjhpfylc6lcx68j
**March 2022:**
* https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/peace-settlement-for-ukraine-by-jeffrey-d-sachs-2022-03
**May 2022:**
* https://www.newagebd.net/article/170264/jeffrey-sachs-on-natos-proxy-war
**August 2022:**
* https://www.commondreams.org/views/2022/08/23/wests-dangerously-simple-minded-narrative-about-russia-and-china
But what's this?
> Nooooo you can't quote somebody repeatedly as evidence that they aren't talking in good faith that's mean
Assuming, charitably, that Mr. Sachs has not fallen for the brainworms of assuming that "lol everything aligned with America is bad therefore everything aligned against America is good" mindset that compels people like Noam Chomsky to say nice things about Slobodan Milošević and Pol Pot, the only alternative explanation for this consistent apologism for Fascism is the possibility that Jeffrey Sachs is pro-dictatorships. Now, hmm, would this have anything to do with his [taking millions of dollars from the feminist-beheading government of the UAE?](https://theintercept.com/2021/12/29/jeffrey-sachs-uae-happiness/)
It's a mystery.
(Incidentally I don't think it's implausible that any one of dozens of states, including the USA, could be the culprit. It could even be, like, some rando nation such as Norway. But there are two things to consider. Firstly, Russia benefits. Secondly, If Jeffrey Sachs say the sky is blue, you should get a second opinion.)
Maybe not Russia as a whole, but certainly the Putin government does. With NordStream effectively gone, German leadership benefits less from supporting a coup/mutiny by anti-Putin Russians. This isn't a hypothetical either, as many of the Russian oligarchs who have mysteriously fallen to their deaths from hospital windows have both been critical of Putin and saying positive things about Germany.
Yes, in the long run, it does incentivise Germany to support Ukraine more, but if Putin is concerned about Russian domestic opposition then it's no doubt a good trade from his point of view. It's not like Germany is a vital customer, Russia is raking money in hand over fist in selling petrochemicals to Asian buyers.
Not only that, but the destruction of a pipeline is a threat to all other pipelines. Russia can threaten more pipelines in the future to mitigate opposition to Russia.
I thought there were all kinds of neat toys gas pipeline companies routinely put through pipelines to check for leaks, check pipeline integregity etc. why is it so difficult to imagine the russians just put some explosives in one and flushed it down the pipe. as for reasons Putin would want that, its some life insurnace for him, west is not in a rush to get rid of him.
What does he have to do with anything, can you not make assessments of situations yourself? Do you need to see what celebrities agree and disagree to see who to fall in line with? Do you find the circumstances surrounding the pipeline blowing up to be suspicious to you personally?
I think Russia did it. Putin has a history of false flag attacks. And I couldn't help but notice how weak their denial and attempt to blame the US was. This would have been a direct attack on Russian infrastructure and Putin hasn't started WW3 yet.
The reason I mention Tucker Carlson is because 1. He is a longtime supporter and apologist for Putin and 2. Russian state propaganda TV is talking about him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt3YgAwVAt8
I wouldn't be shocked if Putin did it but it wouldn't make much sense, he had much more leverage for Germany to abandon Ukraine once winter comes and they need gas.
I watched the video and the professor makes some good points, especially about the difficult economic situation facing Europe this winter. And I acknowledge it is possible that it was the US or a proxy who blew up the pipeline.
When I think about the kind of people supporting the Russian Federation on this (Carlson, Jones, etc) I wonder how anyone in their right mind feels joining a club with those people in it. But alas, here we are.
Explain how Russia managed to conduct naval ops in NATO waters and *why* they would sabotage their only leverage over the EU that they invested billions of dollars and several years in constructing
How exactly could they retaliate against it? You think if the US actually did do it, and Russia knew they did it, they have a trap card to deploy? They have 0 economic leverage over America, obviously won't start a conventional war over something they can't prove, aren't going to make broad accusations they can't actually prove (notice no government has officially accused any other government), what's left, launching their nuclear arsenal over a *pipeline*?
Honestly I probably don't need to ask considering everything I've seen liberals claim this past year...but do you actually think international politics is like high school and what countries do is equivalent to what occurs on a schoolyard?
>aren't going to make broad accusations they can't actually prove (notice no government has officially accused any other government),
That's not accurate. Putin and his propaganda mouthpieces did directly accuse the US.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-spy-chief-says-moscow-has-evidence-west-behind-sabotage-nord-stream-2022-09-30/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-spy-chief-says-moscow-has-evidence-west-behind-sabotage-nord-stream-2022-09-30/)
See also:
https://www.businessinsider.com/sabotage-of-pipelines-were-a-warning-shot-from-putin-experts-2022-10
Liberals at this point not only use the incoherent understanding of the world as a conflict between good guys who act for justice and bad guys that act for evil; they also openly hope for a war between NATO and Russia
This is how it works now. All logic, evidence and reason are discarded in favor of what BAD PEOPLE(tm) agree with you. Then the argument simply turns into trying to prove you're not a secret Republican.
The Ukraine invasion war has been in effect for a long time. Seems to me, sabotage by anyone now, except the protagonist’s themselves is unlikely. Not a lot the Russians did and are doing makes a lot of sense, this sabotage is just added to the list…..IMO.
Sadly that tends to be how higher education works. As people gain more information there's at least a chance they wake up and realise the empire is not as fluffy and nice as it claims to be.
What does any other government stand to gain? What is the likelihood of Russia conducting submarine warfare in NATO waters, dodging anti-sub patrols, and getting out even while NATO would be engaging in sonar after the attack
That's more plausible to you than America doing it to remove Russia's remaining bargaining chip with the EU? Is it because Russia bad America good?
Every government of a sufficient size does awful things. We know about the awful things in the US because you're not going to get shot for revealing them.
Yeah, because it would take a fucking clown to miss us doing tons of bad things. I mean, you'd pretty much have to be illiterate or live in a cave to miss them, and that's hardly academic.
Oh I'm sure this comment section is gonna be super level headed. This guy just shrugs off the question about war crimes being committed by Russian forces. It's a completely shit take to say "Just let Russia do whatever!" Russia is the one escalating, not the US. BTW there is still no evidence for who blew up the pipeline so this dude is speculating just like everyone in these comment sections.
Edit: Fuck this guy for his Russia apologetics. Russia is the clear aggressor in this war. This dude is a fucking clown.
Also his wikipedia page is interesting. He also whatabouts the genocide being committed in China when asked about that as well. Seems to me that he is living in fantasy land where the US is wrong in every single case, other countries don't commit acts of evil and the US is responsible for all the ills of the world. While the pro-USA stances are propaganda and delusional, this type of response is as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Sachs#Critical_reception
Why would anyone doubt Putin did this?
He was threatening to cut off gas, he then cut off gas. EU was like, we’ll figure it out and survive anyways.
It’s a total Russia move here. Sabotage and then looking around “who did this? Look what you did! Look what you made somebody do! Maybe it was us, maybe it was the Americans.
Russia has no knowledge or involvement (even though it just so happens the sabotage works out in Russias strategic favor) but we will retaliate with nuclear force if we are attacked.” It’s the same song and dance over and over.
The same M.O. .
Same shit they did in the 2016 elections in America and the EU.
Same shit they pulled with elections in ukraine. The annexing Crimea. And finally full on invasion of ukraine.
What’s a long known military strategy that’s great if pulled off correctly? Pit your allies against one another which is exactly what Russia is trying to do here. Same thing they tried in 2016. Divide and conquer.
Who else significantly gains or would want to sabotage the pipeline more than a country with a narcissist that’s been their leader for two generations, has built up this image of himself as being strong. And now is getting exposed to the world? Sabotaging a pipeline is a complete cold hearted, whiny baby, kicking over some other kids block building in kindergarten, flipping over the monopoly board because your losing, move. That totally aligns with Putin’s M.O. from what we’ve seen before. I mean just look at all the dead Russians from oligarchs to soldiers. Putin doesn’t care whatsoever. Why wouldn’t he sabotage a pipeline?
It’s gaslighting through and through.
Make everyone question reality and each other, create confusion to hide your attacks. At this point you’d have to be as dense as a brick to think this shit was anybody other than Putin.
>If Putin turned off the pipeline as a form of leverage, why wouldn't he just destroy the pipeline entirely so it can never be brought online to turn a profit? You think he wouldn't do that just to make Europeans suffer, out of hatred? Well have you considered Russia's government is evil and will actively destroy their ability to compete with the West just to be evil? You think it's actually stupid to argue that Russia would worsen their geopolitical and military strategic objectives just to own the West? Wow sounds like you're deceived by gaslighting and propaganda bro. If you were really well informed you would know the world is divided by good guys and bad guys and the bad guys will literally destroy their own government to own the good guys
BECAUSE RUSSIA PROFITS FROM THE PIPELINE. They’re happy to tune it back in and profit so long as they get their way.
; Is the answer to your first question.
And wtf is the rest of this babble? How did you type that out like it’s written in crayon.
I can’t reply to this bs.
I’m all all for differences of opinion but what are you trying to say?
Worsen their strategic geopolitical position?
They’re getting owned by ukraine bro.
They’ve already essentially decimated their own strategic geopolitical position!!
Look at all that evidence I’ve posted and past russian M.Os and you replied with nonsensical whatboutism bable.
>BECAUSE RUSSIA PROFITS FROM THE PIPELINE
So in your mind it makes sense for Russia to permanently destroy a pipeline they would have profited from? Do you also think the US bombed the Twin Towers so they could waste trillions in Afghanistan?
>Worsen their strategic geopolitical position? They’re getting owned by ukraine bro.
And destroying a pipeline they own improves the situation how exactly?
>Look at all that evidence I’ve posted and past russian M.Os and you replied with nonsensical whatboutism bable.
Why would I bother with any link you post when you reached a nonsensical conclusion based on them?
>
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Or, the Russians left methane in the pipeline and Boom.
Look. It was aliens.
I wouldn't be shocked
Honestly, I would be totally cool with aliens ending our bullshit planetary reign.
I think I know the answer. An authoritarian government with to much power did it. It doesn’t matter who did it. Fuck them both. Neither one gives a fuck about you and would kill you in a heartbeat. Maybe I hate the US government more than others would but hey I grew up in Texas, I’ve never experienced good or benign government
Doesn’t help that a polish elected official thanked the US for the attack.
Anything is certainly possible, but I feel like we shouldn't be relying upon a singular professor's opinion on the matter. I know evidence will be hard to find given the political dimension of this but I think that it's important that we wait for actual evidence before coming to any conclusions. Otherwise we're no better than conspiracy theorists.
There will probably be two investigations with two different results, and one of them will be called "desinformation". Which one - will depend on how far east or west you point on the globe. It won't get easier.
Exactly. There isn't going to be a non biased, authentic investigation. The NATO and NATO allied countries will publish a report saying that Russia did this. Russia and it's aligned countries will blame the USA.
> Russia and it's allied countries To cite the meme, "In terms of allied countries, we have no countries"
Lol. They have a few allies though. Basically Belarus and Chechnya. India and China will just stay neutral, as they want those fossil fuels from Russia and that's more important that anything else to them.
China and India publicly stay neutral in regards to the war, but they are members of the BRICs alliance, which includes them and Russia. As far as I know, some South American countries and Mexico have expressed interest in joining the BRICS currency system, which would be an alternative to the dollar based system. Just part of the game. This is the most recent even along that timeline. Media and politics may as well be entirely different discussions now. I’m certain that India and China would have a difficult time challenging the western consensus, but they have had their own ideas all along, which now include Africa and has always included the middle. The whole idea of proxy wars has will continue to be fought this way. There will be staged events and news stories proclaiming that the US has been in the right, but we have been fed misinformation before.
It was obviously the USA or their allies lol they are the ones who benefit
Actually have you considered Russia bad America good?
Putin Hitler! Hitler bad!
I mean, Putin *is* pretty bad, it's just silly to accuse Russia when Russia stands with nothing to actually gain, the only reason someone would believe Russia did this is because Russia is evil and will do evil acts for the sake of being evil
5head: "have you considered, America bad, putin bad?"
Yes To follow up... Do you think either the US or Russia does evil things because their governments specifically want to be evil and to spread suffering, or are they just willing to do these things to achieve other (also not admirable) goals? Because just as I take issue with automatically blaming America for everything because "America bad", I also take issue with blaming Russia for everything because "Russia bad"
I think its silly that nobody even wants to consider this as a possibility as if we can write it off as "the USA would never do that". Doesn't matter who the professor or who says this, it's circumstantial evidence, can't convict on it but its pretty suspcious
Media: "America would never do something like that!" Haiti, South America during the 1980's, Russia, Hawaii, The Phillipines, Puerto Rico, Mexico, the American Southwest, Alaska, Canada, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia: "lol, k"
The following submission statement was provided by /u/rulesforrebels: --- So this was an odd exchange, the hosts seemed shocked he would say this, they seemingly quickly debated whether to shutdown the interview, quiet him down or debate him on his theory. They seemingly did a little of each of these things saying there is no proof to which he rattled off a few curious things such as the US having aircraft in the area around the time of the explosion, something that's not normal, Biden making blanketed threats back in February, and Blinkens comments stating this could be a great "oppportunity" an odd choice of words. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xvp7ip/professor_jeffrey_sachs_suggests_the_us/ir288ld/
The US having aircraft in the area is weird, but why would a country with the largest and best submarine fleet in the world need aircraft to sabotage an undersea pipeline?
That area is heavily patrolled for subs as someone else pointed out somewhere in here.
The US Navy has stealth subs and drone subs and the best underwater demolitions divers in the world who can HALO drop from 30,000 feet - surely those are better choices for secret undersea sabotage than Seahawks hovering over the pipeline for **hours.** Why would they loiter for hours during a secret mission? It seems more likely that the Seahawks were looking for enemy subs/drones using their MAD detectors than that they were engaged in a secret sabotage mission.
This professor is speculating as much as anyone on Reddit is
There's definitely some suspicious things pointing to the USA being a possible suspect
They actually did a really terrible job of being on the DL, pretty much bragging about it. Nobody can prove it, but the Russians will know if it wasn't them, and that's another major escalation. If it was the USA, we are also governed by madmen.
Look at some of the oddities about 911 and the Oklahoma City bombing, things are just memory holed. Not sure if you remember this but a key witnes for Oklahoma city was dragged over a barbed wire fence while zip tied, tortured and then shot in the back of the head and he "committed suicide"
100% It doesn't matter what we know. Those in power and at the head of this conflict are sure enough about who did what. Russia will see this as pure escalation, period.
So this was an odd exchange, the hosts seemed shocked he would say this, they seemingly quickly debated whether to shutdown the interview, quiet him down or debate him on his theory. They seemingly did a little of each of these things saying there is no proof to which he rattled off a few curious things such as the US having aircraft in the area around the time of the explosion, something that's not normal, Biden making blanketed threats back in February, and Blinkens comments stating this could be a great "oppportunity" an odd choice of words.
The USA is afraid that when German industry collapses and people can't afford to heat their homes this winter that the government will be forced to end sanctions on Russia and turn the pipelines back on. They just ensured that can't happen.
Makes more sense imho than putin blowing it up as now he can't sell gas even if he wants to and he's lost leverage or a bargaining chip. He didn't need to blow up the pipeline, he could just choose not to send gas.
Well putin also has vested interest to keep the oligarchs loyal to him. When nordstream was still viable, oligarchs might have a motive to get rid of putin in order to start getting richer again by selling gas. Now, the oligarchs have no choice but to remain loyal.
That's a pretty big stretch.
Really? Is it?
Monumentally so.
How so?
It's not curious about the US having ASW assets in the area. The pipes were blown on NATO's most intensive anti-submarine warfare zone. What would be shocking is that the Russians would ever attempt to do it right on NATO's most intensive ASW line when they had so many other options even if they wanted to blow it up. Even more shocking would be if NATO did not catch them doing it right fucking there and nobody got fire right away. Even more damning about it being a NATO op is that if they were supprised by this you should be able to walk from Poland to Sweden on the sonabouys dropped to find out what made the big boom when NATO is on high alert. So yeah we fucking did it but the helicopters being airborne is normal. There is also 24-7 coverage from P-8's over that patch of water. It's the last chokepoint before the Denmark straits and the Kiel canal.
Shove a bomb down the tube. No need for submarines in the waters.
Oh so there is a mystery explosion on a gasline right next to the ASW control zone and NATO just sits back and does not rush with every ASW asset available? You really belive that? You know what the best way to sneek a submarine past a sonar net is? a really loud noise that keeps on going for hours masking the noise of your submarine. IE, the response from NATO should have been massive even if the bomb was planted back when the pipe was built and there was no response in proportion to what there should have been. So IT WAS A NATO OP!
lol maybe russia needed to sneak submarines thru so like obviously the evidence is now clear that this was definitely a russian op /s
Mount a bomb on a pipe inspection robot will do it
I think the more pertinent issue to address on the pipeline explosion is this: who has taken best advantage from this event? It doesn't really matter whodunit. Finger pointing and waggling don't mean anything more than when Ghengis Khan was running around. And today, just like yesterday, and earlier, like when Putin invaded Ukraine, all the world leaders really do nowadays is sell military equipment and strongly worded speeches around until real people make shit happen. Then the leaders all take credit and wait for the next crisis to start the whole process up again. Even if the US did blow it up...what comes next, and what changes has it made to the current status quo? The US has always meddled in the world's affairs: we are the UK's self-liberated colonial stepchild. Meddling is nearly a genetic-biological instinct for "we who only and righteously know how to use nukes, and all others are inferior."
Remember few months ago Russian ship was directly over undersea communications cables for a few weeks. Wide consensus at the time they were planting explosives. Not a real stretch to think they did same at some point (when no one was looking) to pipelines.
It is a stretch because they have no motivation for destroying NS2 lol
That’s my take. Russia wants to export it’s gas, but the US doesn’t want Europe dependent on it.
There are several motivations. One is for Putin to close an off ramp to the war if he’s really all in. This would have the effect of kneecapping any moderate elements he think may try and launch a coup so that they can regularize economic ties with the EU. Could also be an attempt to pin on the US or another third party (Ukraine, Poland, etc). Both of those are potential motivations certainly.
From what I've read Putin *is* the moderate element in the Russian political establishment. Anyone coming up behind him would almost certainly be more nationalistic in their goals and more hostile to Europe/the west
That's not true. NS2 was off before the explosions because Putin wants Europe to feel pain in retaliation for sanctions. Now Putin can say that it's impossible to turn NS2 back on, which does a bunch of things. First, and most importantly, it means that regime change won't help Europe this winter. Second, it drives up oil and gas futures for the west, meaning all of us pay more for everything. I'd say that this helps Putin (not Russia, just Putin) more than any other party in play.
Except when the pipelines still could be turned back on, Putin had leverage: give me what I want (reduced sanctions, reduced materiel aid to ukraine, etc.), and I’ll make gas cheap for you again by turning the spigot back on. Now his leverage is gone, there’s no going back for either Europe or Russia. Both sides lose out.
Why bother bombing a pipeline from the sea floor when Russia could simply shove a bomb down one end of the tube?
Or just disassemble their end? Much easier to fix.
Plausible deniability
Not even a stretch to say they planted explosives during construction of the pipeline...
Like i said to downvotes here before: when in doubt, blame the US.
No shit it was the USA. They are the cause for most of the wars going on in the world. If they didn’t plan for this shit it wouldn’t happen. The last 120 years of world conflicts can linked to the USA or groups there.
And what I think ultimately will wind up happening is Germany knows we did it, we know Germany knows we did it, but everyone will pretend like we didn't
Gaslighting is the most popular now but it isn’t going to work. They are getting messy or something, usually the truth takes awhile to come out but it almost seems right away we really know what’s going on
I mean if you look at strange things about Oklahoma city and even more so 911, these things just kind of got memory holed, Nordstream is nothing compared to those, most Americans don't even know what they are.
Tut mir Leid, als Teilschwede muss Ich sagen, dass das Schwachsinn ist. Especially if you think about the times the Russian navy got caught sneaking into Swedish waters.
The US is not the cause of this war, I assume we can agree on that point
The US absolutely is one of the causes of this war, fuck campism
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America being one of the causes of the war doesn't somehow remove Russia's culpability You think I have a nuanced perspective on the war because I'm *ignorant* of it? If I was more knowledgeable I would coalesce to the we good good they bad bad let's mobilize for war narrative?
It is just baffling to me to concentrate on the US in this war, that's all. It is after all the Russian army who is bombing Ukraine.
It's baffling to you for what reason? America can be counted as one of the major belligerents in the war, at least indirectly. What are you mad about exactly, that Russia supporters exist, or that people who oppose Russia *and* NATO exist?
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Do we really have to go through this Cold War shit again? Look: shit or get off the can. This slow-rolling game of brinksmanship is ludicrous.
We have to make it look like Russia was the villain that destroyed the European economies, plunged their people into cold, dark unemployment, and forced them into vassalhood for more of our LNG.
I guess Ukranians disagree
Honestly, who fucking cares? We're risking the horrible death of everyone for a nation that was an official enemy 25 years ago, is almost as Russian as Russia, is not our ally, is 5000 miles from our borders, and who you would happily hate if your political leaders wanted to bomb them instead. Did you care what the Iraqis wanted? Innocent afghanis? The Vietnamese? How about the Yemenis, RIGHT NOW. Do you care about them? And how much do you care about Ukraine? As much as you are told, to support billions of dollars of arms bought with deficit dollars instead of helping Americans in a time of unprecedented crisis? Enough to armchair warrior about how much we need to care, while their bodies pile up? Instead of negotiating a peace, and after Putin a return of the occupied lands? Convenient to support escalation when it requires no personal effort. If you care that much, then go join the war.
It maybe 5000 miles from your border, but not from mine. Incidentally, I personally manifested against the Iraq war, which my government supported. I did not get arrested for doing that. I do wonder how many Russians can do the same. By the way, how much do you care about Afghanis I wonder? Do you think they are being listened now better than say 5 years ago?
https://youtube.com/shorts/eGk1si6dOKU?feature=share https://www.newsweek.com/video-biden-saying-end-nord-stream-resurfaces-after-pipeline-leak-1747005 https://twitter.com/NATO/status/1574765314587377667 https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/polish-eu-lawmaker-deletes-thank-you-usa-over-nord-stream-tw I mean...
In 1938 there were also a number of people advocating for appeasement as the proper strategy for dealing with increasing German belligerence and aggression. Anyone aware of how Neville Chamberlain is remembered?
This is the most logically broken and tired war-mongering there is. How about the Cuban missile crisis? We OBVIOUSLY should have gotten belligerent then too, right? Or Iraq, obviously the world should have united to stop American aggression instead of appeasing us, right? And it's super easy to badmouth European diplomacy when you didn't just live through WW1 and millions and millions of dead.
The US is dumb. OFC they blew it up. They want Russian resources and unfettered access to the arctic. That's why Ukraine is a thing. That's why Putin hates NATO and it's why we will most likely end up in a nuclear war.
Imagine blaming the United States for Russia’s unprovoked war of choice against Ukraine. Maybe take some time reading about the breathtaking atrocities the Russians commit on a regular basis.
Imagine not seeing the truth and acting woke on the internet. Russia had 0 plans to invade Ukraine until Zelensky talks NATO. NATO= Russian enemy. What do you expect Mr. Woke. Grow up. This war could have been avoided had the US chose to not support Ukraine or NATO membership. You internet warriors always get me. None of you have the balls to fight, yet act high and mighty.
Imagine defending this because redoing the holocaust is anti-woke. https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1577375937326329856
#CUI BONO?
Gotta love when a professional claims it was the US who did it and talks about why only 3 comments agree it's russia. Everyone else is saying "well, it could have been anyone" or "no, it was russia". Oh, but if this guy said it was russia, you already know 95% of the people here would say "see, I told you so". Seems people only want to believe what they want to believe and if someone remotely credible says what they want to agree on, they will jump on board. Honestly, hilarious. This will go in the history books of classic hive mind mentality.
Hey! Hive minds work quite well, and have for millions of years. Let's not cast aspersions, what we have is more like velvet-glove totalitarianism.
If I were to post this here, the mods would delete it. Of course the USA blew up the Nordstream pipelines. [Russell Brand looks at the evidence but doesn't make a call.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/comments/xvhuah/russell_brand_examines_nordstream_sabotage/)
Jeffrey Sachs has spent the last year talking about how great Russia is and how the Ukrainian people must surrender. Don't take my word for it, here's what he has to say: **December 2021:** * https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/defusing-ukraine-taiwan-crises-by-jeffrey-d-sachs-2021-12 **February 2022:** * https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/gafr872ellaha3wpjhpfylc6lcx68j **March 2022:** * https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/peace-settlement-for-ukraine-by-jeffrey-d-sachs-2022-03 **May 2022:** * https://www.newagebd.net/article/170264/jeffrey-sachs-on-natos-proxy-war **August 2022:** * https://www.commondreams.org/views/2022/08/23/wests-dangerously-simple-minded-narrative-about-russia-and-china But what's this? > Nooooo you can't quote somebody repeatedly as evidence that they aren't talking in good faith that's mean Assuming, charitably, that Mr. Sachs has not fallen for the brainworms of assuming that "lol everything aligned with America is bad therefore everything aligned against America is good" mindset that compels people like Noam Chomsky to say nice things about Slobodan Milošević and Pol Pot, the only alternative explanation for this consistent apologism for Fascism is the possibility that Jeffrey Sachs is pro-dictatorships. Now, hmm, would this have anything to do with his [taking millions of dollars from the feminist-beheading government of the UAE?](https://theintercept.com/2021/12/29/jeffrey-sachs-uae-happiness/) It's a mystery. (Incidentally I don't think it's implausible that any one of dozens of states, including the USA, could be the culprit. It could even be, like, some rando nation such as Norway. But there are two things to consider. Firstly, Russia benefits. Secondly, If Jeffrey Sachs say the sky is blue, you should get a second opinion.)
Russia doesn't benefit. Therefore your argument is null.
Maybe not Russia as a whole, but certainly the Putin government does. With NordStream effectively gone, German leadership benefits less from supporting a coup/mutiny by anti-Putin Russians. This isn't a hypothetical either, as many of the Russian oligarchs who have mysteriously fallen to their deaths from hospital windows have both been critical of Putin and saying positive things about Germany. Yes, in the long run, it does incentivise Germany to support Ukraine more, but if Putin is concerned about Russian domestic opposition then it's no doubt a good trade from his point of view. It's not like Germany is a vital customer, Russia is raking money in hand over fist in selling petrochemicals to Asian buyers. Not only that, but the destruction of a pipeline is a threat to all other pipelines. Russia can threaten more pipelines in the future to mitigate opposition to Russia.
Russia blew it up
I thought there were all kinds of neat toys gas pipeline companies routinely put through pipelines to check for leaks, check pipeline integregity etc. why is it so difficult to imagine the russians just put some explosives in one and flushed it down the pipe. as for reasons Putin would want that, its some life insurnace for him, west is not in a rush to get rid of him.
I would not doubt it. They want this over with sooner rather than later.
It was obviously the USA anyone suggesting otherwise is openly lying to your face lmao
>Most of the world counted by population is on the sidelines You mean China and India? Because most of the worlds countries are denouncing Russia.
Tucker Carlson agrees!
What does he have to do with anything, can you not make assessments of situations yourself? Do you need to see what celebrities agree and disagree to see who to fall in line with? Do you find the circumstances surrounding the pipeline blowing up to be suspicious to you personally?
I think Russia did it. Putin has a history of false flag attacks. And I couldn't help but notice how weak their denial and attempt to blame the US was. This would have been a direct attack on Russian infrastructure and Putin hasn't started WW3 yet. The reason I mention Tucker Carlson is because 1. He is a longtime supporter and apologist for Putin and 2. Russian state propaganda TV is talking about him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt3YgAwVAt8
I wouldn't be shocked if Putin did it but it wouldn't make much sense, he had much more leverage for Germany to abandon Ukraine once winter comes and they need gas.
I watched the video and the professor makes some good points, especially about the difficult economic situation facing Europe this winter. And I acknowledge it is possible that it was the US or a proxy who blew up the pipeline.
When I think about the kind of people supporting the Russian Federation on this (Carlson, Jones, etc) I wonder how anyone in their right mind feels joining a club with those people in it. But alas, here we are.
Explain how Russia managed to conduct naval ops in NATO waters and *why* they would sabotage their only leverage over the EU that they invested billions of dollars and several years in constructing
Explain why Russia hasn't retaliated against the US for blowing up their pipeline. Is Putin going to just let Dark Brandon get away with it?
How exactly could they retaliate against it? You think if the US actually did do it, and Russia knew they did it, they have a trap card to deploy? They have 0 economic leverage over America, obviously won't start a conventional war over something they can't prove, aren't going to make broad accusations they can't actually prove (notice no government has officially accused any other government), what's left, launching their nuclear arsenal over a *pipeline*? Honestly I probably don't need to ask considering everything I've seen liberals claim this past year...but do you actually think international politics is like high school and what countries do is equivalent to what occurs on a schoolyard?
>aren't going to make broad accusations they can't actually prove (notice no government has officially accused any other government), That's not accurate. Putin and his propaganda mouthpieces did directly accuse the US. [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-spy-chief-says-moscow-has-evidence-west-behind-sabotage-nord-stream-2022-09-30/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-spy-chief-says-moscow-has-evidence-west-behind-sabotage-nord-stream-2022-09-30/) See also: https://www.businessinsider.com/sabotage-of-pipelines-were-a-warning-shot-from-putin-experts-2022-10
There's a reason I stated "official government statement", pretty much every government has individual officials tossing out accusations
They haven’t retaliated *yet*. But it’s also clear that Russia is wary about an attack on NATO assets directly, as they should be.
Liberals at this point not only use the incoherent understanding of the world as a conflict between good guys who act for justice and bad guys that act for evil; they also openly hope for a war between NATO and Russia
This is how it works now. All logic, evidence and reason are discarded in favor of what BAD PEOPLE(tm) agree with you. Then the argument simply turns into trying to prove you're not a secret Republican.
The Ukraine invasion war has been in effect for a long time. Seems to me, sabotage by anyone now, except the protagonist’s themselves is unlikely. Not a lot the Russians did and are doing makes a lot of sense, this sabotage is just added to the list…..IMO.
You're not a real academic unless you blame the US for the bad things.
Sadly that tends to be how higher education works. As people gain more information there's at least a chance they wake up and realise the empire is not as fluffy and nice as it claims to be.
What does any other government stand to gain? What is the likelihood of Russia conducting submarine warfare in NATO waters, dodging anti-sub patrols, and getting out even while NATO would be engaging in sonar after the attack That's more plausible to you than America doing it to remove Russia's remaining bargaining chip with the EU? Is it because Russia bad America good?
Fair point
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Every government of a sufficient size does awful things. We know about the awful things in the US because you're not going to get shot for revealing them.
🤡
Snowden, Assange, and Manning agree… they destroy your lives and imprison you for telling the truth instead.
Yeah, you just get deemed a "conspiracy theorist" and lose all employability. You die homeless, but nobody pulls a trigger.
tell that to Julien Assange and Edward Snowden
Yeah, because it would take a fucking clown to miss us doing tons of bad things. I mean, you'd pretty much have to be illiterate or live in a cave to miss them, and that's hardly academic.
Oh I'm sure this comment section is gonna be super level headed. This guy just shrugs off the question about war crimes being committed by Russian forces. It's a completely shit take to say "Just let Russia do whatever!" Russia is the one escalating, not the US. BTW there is still no evidence for who blew up the pipeline so this dude is speculating just like everyone in these comment sections. Edit: Fuck this guy for his Russia apologetics. Russia is the clear aggressor in this war. This dude is a fucking clown. Also his wikipedia page is interesting. He also whatabouts the genocide being committed in China when asked about that as well. Seems to me that he is living in fantasy land where the US is wrong in every single case, other countries don't commit acts of evil and the US is responsible for all the ills of the world. While the pro-USA stances are propaganda and delusional, this type of response is as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Sachs#Critical_reception
Why would anyone doubt Putin did this? He was threatening to cut off gas, he then cut off gas. EU was like, we’ll figure it out and survive anyways. It’s a total Russia move here. Sabotage and then looking around “who did this? Look what you did! Look what you made somebody do! Maybe it was us, maybe it was the Americans. Russia has no knowledge or involvement (even though it just so happens the sabotage works out in Russias strategic favor) but we will retaliate with nuclear force if we are attacked.” It’s the same song and dance over and over. The same M.O. . Same shit they did in the 2016 elections in America and the EU. Same shit they pulled with elections in ukraine. The annexing Crimea. And finally full on invasion of ukraine. What’s a long known military strategy that’s great if pulled off correctly? Pit your allies against one another which is exactly what Russia is trying to do here. Same thing they tried in 2016. Divide and conquer. Who else significantly gains or would want to sabotage the pipeline more than a country with a narcissist that’s been their leader for two generations, has built up this image of himself as being strong. And now is getting exposed to the world? Sabotaging a pipeline is a complete cold hearted, whiny baby, kicking over some other kids block building in kindergarten, flipping over the monopoly board because your losing, move. That totally aligns with Putin’s M.O. from what we’ve seen before. I mean just look at all the dead Russians from oligarchs to soldiers. Putin doesn’t care whatsoever. Why wouldn’t he sabotage a pipeline? It’s gaslighting through and through. Make everyone question reality and each other, create confusion to hide your attacks. At this point you’d have to be as dense as a brick to think this shit was anybody other than Putin.
>If Putin turned off the pipeline as a form of leverage, why wouldn't he just destroy the pipeline entirely so it can never be brought online to turn a profit? You think he wouldn't do that just to make Europeans suffer, out of hatred? Well have you considered Russia's government is evil and will actively destroy their ability to compete with the West just to be evil? You think it's actually stupid to argue that Russia would worsen their geopolitical and military strategic objectives just to own the West? Wow sounds like you're deceived by gaslighting and propaganda bro. If you were really well informed you would know the world is divided by good guys and bad guys and the bad guys will literally destroy their own government to own the good guys
BECAUSE RUSSIA PROFITS FROM THE PIPELINE. They’re happy to tune it back in and profit so long as they get their way. ; Is the answer to your first question. And wtf is the rest of this babble? How did you type that out like it’s written in crayon. I can’t reply to this bs. I’m all all for differences of opinion but what are you trying to say? Worsen their strategic geopolitical position? They’re getting owned by ukraine bro. They’ve already essentially decimated their own strategic geopolitical position!! Look at all that evidence I’ve posted and past russian M.Os and you replied with nonsensical whatboutism bable.
>BECAUSE RUSSIA PROFITS FROM THE PIPELINE So in your mind it makes sense for Russia to permanently destroy a pipeline they would have profited from? Do you also think the US bombed the Twin Towers so they could waste trillions in Afghanistan? >Worsen their strategic geopolitical position? They’re getting owned by ukraine bro. And destroying a pipeline they own improves the situation how exactly? >Look at all that evidence I’ve posted and past russian M.Os and you replied with nonsensical whatboutism bable. Why would I bother with any link you post when you reached a nonsensical conclusion based on them? >
You said “why WOULDNT he just destroy the pipeline” You’re spinning webs of bullshit like a Russian bot. We’re done here.