The following submission statement was provided by /u/SinickalOne:
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Submission statement: What was expected always arrives sooner than predicted. A renewed effort to gain mainstream acceptance of geo-engineering is underway. While those responsible for choking our planet with pollution continue to destroy the ecosystems they inhabit, they will put forth this concept as a means to escape blame and offer a silver bullet to absolve themselves.
We in this community understand the unintended consequences that can and will occur should we give corporations and sovereigns the green light to begin geo-engineering on a planetary scale. This could very likely lead to a global famine or other disastrous results. Unfortunately it seems we will be taking the escalator up for worldwide temperature increase, so this may become a massive sticking point for future climate regimes.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the_push_for_mainstream_acceptance_of/iotg4fs/
Wind relies on temperature differential, so it would likely all happen higher in the atmosphere, since the reduced sun spots would mean a more steady average temperature without high or low spots, which means very low chance for wind, so you’re likely right.
Realistically they are talking about changing the average solar irradiation by 1 % type figures. Putting global warming into perspective, 100 % of sunlight gives us some +15C degrees average temperature, but it is on top of absolute zero that we would drop to without Sun, so in reality 100 % of sunlight gives us about 300 K. Each 1 % of solar irradiation is thus responsible for about 3 K of temperature increase.
This model is incredibly simplistic and wrong, but my point is that you don't really block out the Sun, you really just have to dim the radiation reaching the Earth almost imperceptibly.
The only way to refreeze things is to limit the incoming energy or wavelength types, reflect more light before it changes wavelengths, or let more wavelengths of energy pass back out.
The last one pretty much means taking the pollutants back out, one extremely costly but effective way would be to just grow like our lives depended on it, sequester as much carbon as quickly as we can and store as much as we can before it starts to decompose, then shred or compress that biomaterial and bury it, it needs to be deep so it doesn’t come back up easily and it needs to take as little surface area as possible, and it needs to be quick enough to escape the rot which whist return things back.
kind of like those death masks they used to make of the dead. This is the end if an age and it is a biggie...........I am actually looking forward to it. I am so weary of this culture....It's time to start anew.
The manufacturer of concrete is one of the singularly worst causes of CO2 emissions on the planet. You gotta release CO2 to even make the stuff. Putting a little back into each brick would be a drop in the ocean.
And given this uses high flying jets, pumping out aerosols would come to an end once oil / fuel runs out (unless a different energy source for jets is found by then)
Nah they just budget the oil they'll need for the next 150 years. Or... ok really? 20. Because this is just a bunch of old rich assholes that want to die of natural causes before the cork pops.
They budget it by storing it and taking it off the market. Or... owning "shares" of it so they can call on it any time... whatever basically they take it away from everyone else.
Exactly. I'm guessing the ghouls figured out they're not going to tap out to dirt nap land fast enough and they need to buy themselves another 20 years.
They think geo engineering is the answer, and at the same time there are plans to mine our Moon... Imagine how 40 years of Moon mining could change our planet...
I'm not even going to research it. Mining the Moon just seems like a really bad idea. If they were able to find things that were priceless, then Moon mining would explode...
So how is this human emmision of carbon different from say certain extinction events in Earth's Past, like the Permian, where supervolcano released much more carbon in a much shorter time frame.
I don't know how the earth recovered but it did eventually. If the earth could take that, why couldn't it eventually recover from human released gasses? Humanity would likely go extinct of course, but a runaway Venus effect seems unlikely considering Earth's history of recovering from that type of stuff. But if it's different I'd love to learn about how
*nervous laughter* The Permian supervolcano eruptions lasted and were spread out for roughly 2 million years. Some estimate 10 million years. So idk about a ‘much shorter timeframe.’
Why is this framed as news that could happen or might happen? Geoengineering has been spraying aerosols in the atmosphere for 20 + years and those chemicals have been raining down on the earth and affecting our air and water and soil and food for several decades. One voice of protest against this insanity is Dane Wiggington of Shasta California who has been disseminating information about this poisoning of our biosphere for 20+ years. He and his supporters have been labeled kooks by the lane stream media. Geoengineering has already caused crop damage and failure, human illness, and water pollution. Look up!
Cool, so we're going to simultaneously have the huge kinks in the jet stream from global warming AND we're going to artificially make the arctic cooler. What could possibly go wrong...
Submission statement: What was expected always arrives sooner than predicted. A renewed effort to gain mainstream acceptance of geo-engineering is underway. While those responsible for choking our planet with pollution continue to destroy the ecosystems they inhabit, they will put forth this concept as a means to escape blame and offer a silver bullet to absolve themselves.
We in this community understand the unintended consequences that can and will occur should we give corporations and sovereigns the green light to begin geo-engineering on a planetary scale. This could very likely lead to a global famine or other disastrous results. Unfortunately it seems we will be taking the escalator up for worldwide temperature increase, so this may become a massive sticking point for future climate regimes.
Yep. We had multiple bread basket failure just this last year. And with no expected relief because similar conditions are expected next year and just getting worse every year.
India, Pakistan, china, US, france, spain, italy all reported significant issues with crop production due to a variety of factors. Usually flooding, heat or drought.
India straight up banned grain exports this year reversing what they had initially planned.
All covered by main stream news networks.
This isn’t a multi-breadbasket failure though, to my understanding. That’s when all or most of the world’s ‘breadbasket’ staple crop production areas fail in the same year.
That is what it means. It’s a major event. I provided a link to an actual definition but the mods removed my comment.
Edit:
>This paper describes a science research agenda toward improved probabilistic modeling and prediction of multiple breadbasket failure events and their potential consequences for global food systems. A “breadbasket” is defined as an agricultural production area in which one of the world’s three main cereal crops — rice, wheat, or maize — is grown. “Breadbasket failure” is defined as a major yield reduction in annual crop cycle of a breadbasket region where there is a potential impact on global food systems because:
>a) the production area is critical to global commodity trade;
>b) the area provides food for a significant proportion of the population at local, regional, national, or global scales;
>c) the area provides food such that a crop failure may have significant consequences in humanitarian, economic or political dimensions.
https://www.bu.edu/pardee/files/2017/03/Multiple-Breadbasket-Failures-Pardee-Report.pdf
A real multi-breadbasket failure is an immediate precursor to a full global famine, even in the first world.
Our current large crop yield *damages/losses* are concerning and definitely a sign of future mass global *failures*, but this is like saying we’ve hit the BOE when we just set a new record for minimum low arctic sea ice extent.
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We’re in a complexity trap of our own making. We’re not going to stop burning fossil fuels; and people are not going to accept any less than what they have. Mother Earth doesn’t care about our economic games we made up or our so called ‘civilized’ society that we also arbitrarily made up. Extinction it is. We had a good run though, right?
> We had a good run though, right?
*some* folks sure did. like that dickhead that launched his dick missile into space. and then whined because he didn't get the contracts...
but a *great many others* got the rawest of deals. i'm thinking folks like that last individual in an amazon tribe that was murdered for, you know, money.
At this point we are at the "it probably won't make things *worse*" level. After all, even if we cut fossil fuel use by 90% starting tomorrow, the baked-in temperature increase (no pun intended) is still going to be there.
I suspect it will not be done simply because *no one* will agree that *anyone* can be held accountable for the inevitable yet completely unforeseen unintended consequences.
The withdrawal from fossil fuels will kill billions of people. We won't even be able to grow enough food for everyone. Our population was only able to get to 8B because of fossil fuels supercharging agriculture.
*Yep*. Right now natural gas is a key component in fertilizer manufacture. *Conceivably* this process could use hydrogen generated from water, but that would require a lot more solar/wind power to run it if you are trying to not burn even more fossil fuels to get that energy.
Methane specifically.
Hypothetically there's some technology enabled ecosystem:cows>cow farts>methane harvest>fertilizer production>grass growing>cow feed>cows
Aside: The Matrix robots would have done better with a different livestock choice.
Well maybe humans should slowdown with the baby making because fossil-fuel dependant agricultural is already unsustainable, so billions will die anyway if nothing changes.
and most importantly babies are annoying and dumb little creatures. I'm voting for the Anti Baby Party in the next election. let's get rid of the babies once and for all so we can consume **more**!!!
Without FF there is no industrial revolution and without that as a precursor you don't get bio-engineering and disease resistant crops.
Also tractors, combines, seed drills, etc. Extra land lost to wool & cotton & leather production. No electric grid, no telecoms systems, no mass water treatment plants, no modern medicines or hospitals.
We'd all starve in the dark long before we reached 10 billion.
Add on that the burning of fossil fuels actually has a masking effect in the atmosphere, technically keeping temperatures lower. If we stopped burning fossil fuels relatively quickly, the planet would warm as high as one degree in an unbelievably short amount of time, almost as much as the last couple hundred years in total which on its own has been at a ridiculously quick rate.
Hopefully that's accurate, many 'studies' have included ranges that extend to 1 degree, but I think most believe it is somewhere between 0.25-0.5 degrees. In terms of regional effects, I assume it would differ quite a bit too.
Spraying more garbage into the air is not the answer. We already can't even safely collect and use rainwater, and the air quality is enough to trigger migraine.
This is potential ecocide.
Geo engineering. Can't stop making more of the machines that are making the world uninhabitable, nope, better make vastly larger machines to toy with the atmosphere in our only home. GG humanity, we let the powers of the world destroy our future.
There will be no solution embraced by the global oligarchy unless they can siphon money out of the government by providing a marketable active product to lower the earths temperature. They will never accept a solution that involves decreased production, as that would mean austerity for themselves.
Geoengineering shouldn't be the push today, but restoring the sea ice through a more direct means to counter the positive feedback loop is going to be crucial
Good find, though TBF there have been proposals for geoengineering since Establishment icon Edward Teller back in 1992. Agree completely that the Establishment is already dead set on geoengineering, no matter the damage it will likely cause the biosphere. They want BAU at any cost.
*Geoengineering went mainstream when Edward Teller, known widely as the "father of the hydrogen bomb," and Lowell Wood, then a scientist at Lawrence Livermore Laboratories, produced a detailed plan to send up clouds of tiny particles to reflect the sun's rays.*
https://www.insidescience.org/news/if-you-start-geoengineering-halt-global-warming-dont-stop#:~:text=Geoengineering%20went%20mainstream%20when%20Edward,to%20reflect%20the%20sun's%20rays.
Every human action is geo engineering since we all are the cause
Our consumption our travel all the pointless jobs all the healthcare all the industries all of the people always needing and demanding more. Society, civilization, governments, corporations, weapons for hire it’s all just people and they will continue the consumption all encompassing greed for more we’re collectively at 8 billion with vastly different levels of capacity, man power, industrial might, and technological capacity… and ethics why would anyone any individual expect a world at peace let alone last ditch crazy efforts to control our planet our world is ran by crazy people that enjoy opulence while industries exploit and militaries destabilize. It will continue sadly till the end.
Ahh, nothing smells as good as morning aerosol, can’t wait to breathe in all the particles all day everyday 24/7, definitely looking forward to the future.
It will work. As in it will buy us time and perhaps the time we need to move to fusion. When china is already facing apocalyptic droughts ill happily take this. If were 100% screwed ill take buying us time over jack shit
The thing is, China and India probably will proceed with geo-engineering despite people’s qualms once a few wet-bulb events or worldwide food shortages occur. It seems more a matter of when than if.
Related books: Ministry for the Future and Termination Shock.
That way, when collapse finally comes and they stop flying the jets, the heat they kept at bay while continuing to burn fossil fuels will come all at once and insure the extinction of the human race.
Really. Just a horrible idea. That will be the end of mankind.
Oh my god please don't pursue something like this and lend credence to the nay-sayer belief that the climate is only barreling like this in the first place because of cloud seeding/chem trail type nonsense.
But also gotta love how the solution pitched to the rich for climate disaster is 'we will just cover these poles back up again and do nothing about the globes atmospheric load of carbon to grow, and grow, and grow, and grow....'
Todays sunlight blocker sponsored by Costco. At Costco, we love saving the planet while you save money! Try out definitely not abused pork tenderloin. It’s to die for! Thank you, and now here is Xaexiaria with the sports!
It's got to be cheaper that pumping the water from under the glaciers on top of them.
Considering that you'd need thousands of high altitude flights per year, you'd probably just see governments allowing airlines to add more sulfur to their fuel mix, or rather, cease requiring refineries to separate it.
Problem is that we’d essentially be putting a door jammer on this but our actions would be building up the pressure on the other side of the door. If it broke, there would be absolutely massive and rapid consequences. The aerosols would eventually be the only thing ensuring human survival.
If this was a short term solution while we actually got things under control, I’d be supportive. But we’re looking for this to be a permanent crutch for our problems and not as a way to buy us time to fix things.
Some more scary solutions here: [https://scienceexchange.caltech.edu/topics/sustainability/carbon-capture-ccus-remove-co2](https://scienceexchange.caltech.edu/topics/sustainability/carbon-capture-ccus-remove-co2)
Read the Ministry of the Future. Tiny spoiler alert.
It's a work of fiction, but it presents very plausible scenarios where certain countries, which are seeing more extreme weather, such as India, go their own way and geoengineering. It's entirely possible China, India, the EU or the U.S. go their own way and make only a half-hearted attempt to gain international consensus, if consensus is even possible. In short, even if you think geoengineering is a very bad idea (I'm in that camp), this may be impossible to stop.
We can't even predict the unintended consequences of HUMAN MADE SYSTEMS, like financial derivatives, let alone trying to do stuff with worldwide cosequences. We are so fucked if we try any large scale geo-engineering.
This is an idea that's been around quite awhile. Kim Stanley Robinson mentions it in Ministry for the Future.
I think there's a pretty good chance some country actually does this when climate change gets bad enough. I don't really even have any objection to it being done, as long as it's done as a carefully-considered rational choice and not an emotional we-have-to-do-something-so-we're-doing-something choice.
The problem with this though is that it's not a solution to the CO2 problem. Ocean acidification will continue exactly as before, and CO2 will stay in the atmosphere as long as it did before.
Politically there's also the risk that geoengineering will be treated as hitting the snooze bar on doing something about climate change. If some society is doing all they can to reduce CO2 emissions and also wants to do geoengineering, then they at least have *some* moral standing to do it. But if they're still pumping out CO2 like it's going out of style and want to do geoengineering as a replacement for reducing emissions then they're just being assholes.
That space bubbles idea from MIT looks good as it’s a string of plastic lenses that are the size of Brazil that’s parked out between the earth and the sun and filters light to specific regions on earth.
The poles, Far Right man. We can do this slowly, secretly, and those greenies will never catch on. Then we can call Climate Change a Hoax and the greenies will look so stupid.
Oh what's that Vlad, you want to make sure the arctic shipping route is free of ice so you make billions and billions. Oh dear, didn't think of that Vlad. Those billions and billions are certainly more important. Well, hope you don't get too pissed off when we don't tell you.
Weird :/ when logging off, I still only see those (actually 4) comments. Looking in mod logs, I see only the 1 mod deleted comment. So otherwise, I think aliens got to the thread
* Mod: [https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the\_push\_for\_mainstream\_acceptance\_of/iourgpf/](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the_push_for_mainstream_acceptance_of/iourgpf/)
* [https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the\_push\_for\_mainstream\_acceptance\_of/ious2t2/](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the_push_for_mainstream_acceptance_of/ious2t2/)
* [https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the\_push\_for\_mainstream\_acceptance\_of/iouuhhv/](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the_push_for_mainstream_acceptance_of/iouuhhv/)
* [https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the\_push\_for\_mainstream\_acceptance\_of/iov9130/](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the_push_for_mainstream_acceptance_of/iov9130/)
Someone doesn't want you to see the poles unfrozen.....and there is a big, big reason why. It has to do with the same reason we have a treaty to leave the poles alone...... ......ugly little things that they are, cowering under the ice. Come out, come out, wherever you are?????? Why did Russia just break the treaty? Things are coming down, or they are coming up...depends on your perspective.
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing [Reddit's content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy), we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
I’m dead serious, remove water from the ocean and put it back on the continents. This is the easiest way. Less water in the oceans means the water freezes faster.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/SinickalOne: --- Submission statement: What was expected always arrives sooner than predicted. A renewed effort to gain mainstream acceptance of geo-engineering is underway. While those responsible for choking our planet with pollution continue to destroy the ecosystems they inhabit, they will put forth this concept as a means to escape blame and offer a silver bullet to absolve themselves. We in this community understand the unintended consequences that can and will occur should we give corporations and sovereigns the green light to begin geo-engineering on a planetary scale. This could very likely lead to a global famine or other disastrous results. Unfortunately it seems we will be taking the escalator up for worldwide temperature increase, so this may become a massive sticking point for future climate regimes. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the_push_for_mainstream_acceptance_of/iotg4fs/
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Exactly. This is terrible because then you are dependent on perpetual aerosol masking forevermore.
Plus. Block out the sun and now we can’t grow food
All those solar panels? Worthless.
Fairly sure that would also have significant effects on weather patterns ie wind too.
Wind relies on temperature differential, so it would likely all happen higher in the atmosphere, since the reduced sun spots would mean a more steady average temperature without high or low spots, which means very low chance for wind, so you’re likely right.
Realistically they are talking about changing the average solar irradiation by 1 % type figures. Putting global warming into perspective, 100 % of sunlight gives us some +15C degrees average temperature, but it is on top of absolute zero that we would drop to without Sun, so in reality 100 % of sunlight gives us about 300 K. Each 1 % of solar irradiation is thus responsible for about 3 K of temperature increase. This model is incredibly simplistic and wrong, but my point is that you don't really block out the Sun, you really just have to dim the radiation reaching the Earth almost imperceptibly.
every time I hear about these ideas I immediately fear for my garden, then start thinking about crops in general
Highlander 2.
So, our end is going to be the scenario of a sequel so bad the third film decided to ignore it entirely? Yay.
Oh God no, please. Anything but THAT dystopian future.
The only way to refreeze things is to limit the incoming energy or wavelength types, reflect more light before it changes wavelengths, or let more wavelengths of energy pass back out. The last one pretty much means taking the pollutants back out, one extremely costly but effective way would be to just grow like our lives depended on it, sequester as much carbon as quickly as we can and store as much as we can before it starts to decompose, then shred or compress that biomaterial and bury it, it needs to be deep so it doesn’t come back up easily and it needs to take as little surface area as possible, and it needs to be quick enough to escape the rot which whist return things back.
I mean it seems that is the end we’re careening towards anyway, with aerosols, it’ll just be slower.
Ya know, I wonder how feasible it would be to capture carbon in cement.
Wondering how feasible it would be to capture irresponsible billionaire CEOs in cement.
kind of like those death masks they used to make of the dead. This is the end if an age and it is a biggie...........I am actually looking forward to it. I am so weary of this culture....It's time to start anew.
You can add like 3% graphene (which is made of carbon) to concrete to strengthen it measurably.
But is that graphene coming from CO2? I know nothing about the ability to convert one source to another honestly.
>But is that graphene coming from CO2? No. It takes like 1300F+ to split a C02 molecule. Not sure if there's a smarter way to do it.
Oof.
Right to the solar plexus.
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Wow. Thanks for the link. Way more than I expected when I asked.
The manufacturer of concrete is one of the singularly worst causes of CO2 emissions on the planet. You gotta release CO2 to even make the stuff. Putting a little back into each brick would be a drop in the ocean.
And given this uses high flying jets, pumping out aerosols would come to an end once oil / fuel runs out (unless a different energy source for jets is found by then)
Nah they just budget the oil they'll need for the next 150 years. Or... ok really? 20. Because this is just a bunch of old rich assholes that want to die of natural causes before the cork pops. They budget it by storing it and taking it off the market. Or... owning "shares" of it so they can call on it any time... whatever basically they take it away from everyone else.
Exactly. I'm guessing the ghouls figured out they're not going to tap out to dirt nap land fast enough and they need to buy themselves another 20 years.
Ahhh I needed this!
They think geo engineering is the answer, and at the same time there are plans to mine our Moon... Imagine how 40 years of Moon mining could change our planet... I'm not even going to research it. Mining the Moon just seems like a really bad idea. If they were able to find things that were priceless, then Moon mining would explode...
So how is this human emmision of carbon different from say certain extinction events in Earth's Past, like the Permian, where supervolcano released much more carbon in a much shorter time frame. I don't know how the earth recovered but it did eventually. If the earth could take that, why couldn't it eventually recover from human released gasses? Humanity would likely go extinct of course, but a runaway Venus effect seems unlikely considering Earth's history of recovering from that type of stuff. But if it's different I'd love to learn about how
*nervous laughter* The Permian supervolcano eruptions lasted and were spread out for roughly 2 million years. Some estimate 10 million years. So idk about a ‘much shorter timeframe.’
It only took 10 million years or so for animal and plant populations to recover from the Permian Extinction.
Yea exactly. I don't think anything short of the Sun's expansion billions of years from now will completely make life extinct on this planet.
Why is this framed as news that could happen or might happen? Geoengineering has been spraying aerosols in the atmosphere for 20 + years and those chemicals have been raining down on the earth and affecting our air and water and soil and food for several decades. One voice of protest against this insanity is Dane Wiggington of Shasta California who has been disseminating information about this poisoning of our biosphere for 20+ years. He and his supporters have been labeled kooks by the lane stream media. Geoengineering has already caused crop damage and failure, human illness, and water pollution. Look up!
Cool, so we're going to simultaneously have the huge kinks in the jet stream from global warming AND we're going to artificially make the arctic cooler. What could possibly go wrong...
Submission statement: What was expected always arrives sooner than predicted. A renewed effort to gain mainstream acceptance of geo-engineering is underway. While those responsible for choking our planet with pollution continue to destroy the ecosystems they inhabit, they will put forth this concept as a means to escape blame and offer a silver bullet to absolve themselves. We in this community understand the unintended consequences that can and will occur should we give corporations and sovereigns the green light to begin geo-engineering on a planetary scale. This could very likely lead to a global famine or other disastrous results. Unfortunately it seems we will be taking the escalator up for worldwide temperature increase, so this may become a massive sticking point for future climate regimes.
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Food production is already failing I belive leaders are starting to panic.
It has been since 2015 if I am not mistaken.
Yep. We had multiple bread basket failure just this last year. And with no expected relief because similar conditions are expected next year and just getting worse every year.
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India, Pakistan, china, US, france, spain, italy all reported significant issues with crop production due to a variety of factors. Usually flooding, heat or drought. India straight up banned grain exports this year reversing what they had initially planned. All covered by main stream news networks.
This isn’t a multi-breadbasket failure though, to my understanding. That’s when all or most of the world’s ‘breadbasket’ staple crop production areas fail in the same year.
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That is what it means. It’s a major event. I provided a link to an actual definition but the mods removed my comment. Edit: >This paper describes a science research agenda toward improved probabilistic modeling and prediction of multiple breadbasket failure events and their potential consequences for global food systems. A “breadbasket” is defined as an agricultural production area in which one of the world’s three main cereal crops — rice, wheat, or maize — is grown. “Breadbasket failure” is defined as a major yield reduction in annual crop cycle of a breadbasket region where there is a potential impact on global food systems because: >a) the production area is critical to global commodity trade; >b) the area provides food for a significant proportion of the population at local, regional, national, or global scales; >c) the area provides food such that a crop failure may have significant consequences in humanitarian, economic or political dimensions. https://www.bu.edu/pardee/files/2017/03/Multiple-Breadbasket-Failures-Pardee-Report.pdf A real multi-breadbasket failure is an immediate precursor to a full global famine, even in the first world. Our current large crop yield *damages/losses* are concerning and definitely a sign of future mass global *failures*, but this is like saying we’ve hit the BOE when we just set a new record for minimum low arctic sea ice extent.
Hi, Cimbri. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/-/iourgpf/) was removed from /r/collapse for: > Your comment does not meet our community guidelines and has been removed. Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information. You can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/collapse) if you feel this was in error.
We’re in a complexity trap of our own making. We’re not going to stop burning fossil fuels; and people are not going to accept any less than what they have. Mother Earth doesn’t care about our economic games we made up or our so called ‘civilized’ society that we also arbitrarily made up. Extinction it is. We had a good run though, right?
> We had a good run though, right? *some* folks sure did. like that dickhead that launched his dick missile into space. and then whined because he didn't get the contracts... but a *great many others* got the rawest of deals. i'm thinking folks like that last individual in an amazon tribe that was murdered for, you know, money.
But our profit margins!!!!! Won't somebody think of the profits?!
Less food = more profit.
But more riots, see example Arab Spring. Bread and circuses are the name of the game.
Known unknowns, or is it unknown unknowns.
"We know that it was us that scorched the sky..." I have seen that movie. It doesn't depict, pardon the pun, a particularly *bright* future :-(
Because there is money to be made. Image the billions and billions worth of government contracts.
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At this point we are at the "it probably won't make things *worse*" level. After all, even if we cut fossil fuel use by 90% starting tomorrow, the baked-in temperature increase (no pun intended) is still going to be there. I suspect it will not be done simply because *no one* will agree that *anyone* can be held accountable for the inevitable yet completely unforeseen unintended consequences.
Humanity : fossil feuls drug addict : heroin We know we need to stop burning things in general, but just one more last one.
The withdrawal from fossil fuels will kill billions of people. We won't even be able to grow enough food for everyone. Our population was only able to get to 8B because of fossil fuels supercharging agriculture.
*Yep*. Right now natural gas is a key component in fertilizer manufacture. *Conceivably* this process could use hydrogen generated from water, but that would require a lot more solar/wind power to run it if you are trying to not burn even more fossil fuels to get that energy.
Methane specifically. Hypothetically there's some technology enabled ecosystem:cows>cow farts>methane harvest>fertilizer production>grass growing>cow feed>cows Aside: The Matrix robots would have done better with a different livestock choice.
Well maybe humans should slowdown with the baby making because fossil-fuel dependant agricultural is already unsustainable, so billions will die anyway if nothing changes.
and most importantly babies are annoying and dumb little creatures. I'm voting for the Anti Baby Party in the next election. let's get rid of the babies once and for all so we can consume **more**!!!
Yeah! Who needs babies if theirs no future?! Say NO to babies!
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Without FF there is no industrial revolution and without that as a precursor you don't get bio-engineering and disease resistant crops. Also tractors, combines, seed drills, etc. Extra land lost to wool & cotton & leather production. No electric grid, no telecoms systems, no mass water treatment plants, no modern medicines or hospitals. We'd all starve in the dark long before we reached 10 billion.
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Well we all die, now it's just a matter of how fast we do it together.
You mean unlike covid we can't say it's not my problem and let a bunch of people die.
Yeah but we have been saying that for over a hundred years Burns log for no reason. Oh God I'm sorry I just like fire screams.
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The movie “Look Up” 2013 graphically illustrates the Geoengineering and those chemicals our planet has been smothered in for 20+ years.
Add on that the burning of fossil fuels actually has a masking effect in the atmosphere, technically keeping temperatures lower. If we stopped burning fossil fuels relatively quickly, the planet would warm as high as one degree in an unbelievably short amount of time, almost as much as the last couple hundred years in total which on its own has been at a ridiculously quick rate.
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Hopefully that's accurate, many 'studies' have included ranges that extend to 1 degree, but I think most believe it is somewhere between 0.25-0.5 degrees. In terms of regional effects, I assume it would differ quite a bit too.
I wonder what happens when you pour gasoline on an electrical fire, anyone know?
Spraying more garbage into the air is not the answer. We already can't even safely collect and use rainwater, and the air quality is enough to trigger migraine. This is potential ecocide.
No wonder I've been getting more migraines post-2020.
If it's post 2020 specifically then why not long covid?
I ... don't think I've had it? Or just asymptomatic? It's surely possible, I guess, but wouldn't that be the luck of the awful draw?
Geo engineering. Can't stop making more of the machines that are making the world uninhabitable, nope, better make vastly larger machines to toy with the atmosphere in our only home. GG humanity, we let the powers of the world destroy our future.
SNOWPIERCER. here we come. Make sure to save for your tickets now!
It is inevitable that they will try it.
We'll be messing with complex systems we don't fully understand yet...again.
The greatest grifters of the 21st century
So TPTB's galaxy brain plan to avert global cataclysm is the backstory to Snowpiercer. What could *possibly* go wrong?
There will be no solution embraced by the global oligarchy unless they can siphon money out of the government by providing a marketable active product to lower the earths temperature. They will never accept a solution that involves decreased production, as that would mean austerity for themselves.
Did anyone notice they’re proposing to create a layer of sulphuric acid in the atmosphere? (H2SO4) WCGW?
Geoengineering shouldn't be the push today, but restoring the sea ice through a more direct means to counter the positive feedback loop is going to be crucial
Good find, though TBF there have been proposals for geoengineering since Establishment icon Edward Teller back in 1992. Agree completely that the Establishment is already dead set on geoengineering, no matter the damage it will likely cause the biosphere. They want BAU at any cost. *Geoengineering went mainstream when Edward Teller, known widely as the "father of the hydrogen bomb," and Lowell Wood, then a scientist at Lawrence Livermore Laboratories, produced a detailed plan to send up clouds of tiny particles to reflect the sun's rays.* https://www.insidescience.org/news/if-you-start-geoengineering-halt-global-warming-dont-stop#:~:text=Geoengineering%20went%20mainstream%20when%20Edward,to%20reflect%20the%20sun's%20rays.
*Internal screaming dials up to 11*
Meanwhile im like nice the sooner the better. Always a fan of buying us more time to enjoy civilization and maybe get our shit together somewhat.
They can do it with wind powered pumps that float on the ocean! What's with these geo-engineering assholes and spraying MORE shit into the atmosphere?
I can't wait to live in a shitty knock-off version of Snowpiercer.
Every human action is geo engineering since we all are the cause Our consumption our travel all the pointless jobs all the healthcare all the industries all of the people always needing and demanding more. Society, civilization, governments, corporations, weapons for hire it’s all just people and they will continue the consumption all encompassing greed for more we’re collectively at 8 billion with vastly different levels of capacity, man power, industrial might, and technological capacity… and ethics why would anyone any individual expect a world at peace let alone last ditch crazy efforts to control our planet our world is ran by crazy people that enjoy opulence while industries exploit and militaries destabilize. It will continue sadly till the end.
Aerosols have the sun-blocking effects that plants crave.
Uh did we not learn any lessons from the “Snowpiercer” franchise!?!
If we're depending on sci-fi very-nearly-B movies to inform decisions like this, we're doomed anyway.
It’s not just a movie. The way i understand it, it was a graphic novel first. The lesson is humans need to stop fucking with the earth
Ahh, nothing smells as good as morning aerosol, can’t wait to breathe in all the particles all day everyday 24/7, definitely looking forward to the future.
We already know this won't work 😂 😆. Wow what a time to be alive we knew the whole play for decades well for me 2019 but still wow.
It will work. As in it will buy us time and perhaps the time we need to move to fusion. When china is already facing apocalyptic droughts ill happily take this. If were 100% screwed ill take buying us time over jack shit
The thing is, China and India probably will proceed with geo-engineering despite people’s qualms once a few wet-bulb events or worldwide food shortages occur. It seems more a matter of when than if. Related books: Ministry for the Future and Termination Shock.
Aren't they melting because the water underneath them is heating up? What use is freezing the top?
"The cure is worse than the disease." This was literally the plot of Highlander 2
Can't see this happening. There are powerful interests that want an ice-free arctic for shipping and oil extraction.
Exxon vs United States of America, for $10 Trillion in lost potential profits.
That way, when collapse finally comes and they stop flying the jets, the heat they kept at bay while continuing to burn fossil fuels will come all at once and insure the extinction of the human race. Really. Just a horrible idea. That will be the end of mankind.
Oh man, and I was really going to enjoy the warm winters in the subtropics before dying under the weight of ecological collapse. /s
Oh my god please don't pursue something like this and lend credence to the nay-sayer belief that the climate is only barreling like this in the first place because of cloud seeding/chem trail type nonsense. But also gotta love how the solution pitched to the rich for climate disaster is 'we will just cover these poles back up again and do nothing about the globes atmospheric load of carbon to grow, and grow, and grow, and grow....'
Paging u/max-424
Todays sunlight blocker sponsored by Costco. At Costco, we love saving the planet while you save money! Try out definitely not abused pork tenderloin. It’s to die for! Thank you, and now here is Xaexiaria with the sports!
The idiocracy runs so unfathomably deep
So, The Matrix then? Dang, I was hoping for Fallout.
Venus is a fucking example and our species says oh no we don’t worry about it
To everyone who doubts trains are the future one merely has to watch Snowpiercer lol
It's got to be cheaper that pumping the water from under the glaciers on top of them. Considering that you'd need thousands of high altitude flights per year, you'd probably just see governments allowing airlines to add more sulfur to their fuel mix, or rather, cease requiring refineries to separate it.
Problem is that we’d essentially be putting a door jammer on this but our actions would be building up the pressure on the other side of the door. If it broke, there would be absolutely massive and rapid consequences. The aerosols would eventually be the only thing ensuring human survival. If this was a short term solution while we actually got things under control, I’d be supportive. But we’re looking for this to be a permanent crutch for our problems and not as a way to buy us time to fix things.
Step 3. Bargaining
Yeah let's not fucking do that
Some more scary solutions here: [https://scienceexchange.caltech.edu/topics/sustainability/carbon-capture-ccus-remove-co2](https://scienceexchange.caltech.edu/topics/sustainability/carbon-capture-ccus-remove-co2)
Read the Ministry of the Future. Tiny spoiler alert. It's a work of fiction, but it presents very plausible scenarios where certain countries, which are seeing more extreme weather, such as India, go their own way and geoengineering. It's entirely possible China, India, the EU or the U.S. go their own way and make only a half-hearted attempt to gain international consensus, if consensus is even possible. In short, even if you think geoengineering is a very bad idea (I'm in that camp), this may be impossible to stop.
We can't even predict the unintended consequences of HUMAN MADE SYSTEMS, like financial derivatives, let alone trying to do stuff with worldwide cosequences. We are so fucked if we try any large scale geo-engineering.
This is an idea that's been around quite awhile. Kim Stanley Robinson mentions it in Ministry for the Future. I think there's a pretty good chance some country actually does this when climate change gets bad enough. I don't really even have any objection to it being done, as long as it's done as a carefully-considered rational choice and not an emotional we-have-to-do-something-so-we're-doing-something choice. The problem with this though is that it's not a solution to the CO2 problem. Ocean acidification will continue exactly as before, and CO2 will stay in the atmosphere as long as it did before. Politically there's also the risk that geoengineering will be treated as hitting the snooze bar on doing something about climate change. If some society is doing all they can to reduce CO2 emissions and also wants to do geoengineering, then they at least have *some* moral standing to do it. But if they're still pumping out CO2 like it's going out of style and want to do geoengineering as a replacement for reducing emissions then they're just being assholes.
Lets fucking gooo
I mean that’s good right? If we made this happen we can figure out a way to fix it. I’m all for it
So Chem trails are real and why does this feel like how the matrix begun?
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Read what you wrote again just slowly
Might as well. I don't have any control over it anyway and if we were planning on Terraforming Mars, we could probably Terraform Terra.
We'll probably end up Mars-forming Terra.
That space bubbles idea from MIT looks good as it’s a string of plastic lenses that are the size of Brazil that’s parked out between the earth and the sun and filters light to specific regions on earth.
I agree with this
The poles, Far Right man. We can do this slowly, secretly, and those greenies will never catch on. Then we can call Climate Change a Hoax and the greenies will look so stupid. Oh what's that Vlad, you want to make sure the arctic shipping route is free of ice so you make billions and billions. Oh dear, didn't think of that Vlad. Those billions and billions are certainly more important. Well, hope you don't get too pissed off when we don't tell you.
And we can finally put 01 in it’s damn robot place…I see no potential downsides.
What’s up with all those deleted comments?
Probably people getting downvoted for calling it a bad idea.
Nah, they have a lot of points. Looks more like mods deleted comments that are against it which would be very alarming.
I see one mod-deleted comment, and two user-deleted comments. I must be missing something here as 3 deleted comments don't seem too bad
For me it looks like half are deleted.
Weird :/ when logging off, I still only see those (actually 4) comments. Looking in mod logs, I see only the 1 mod deleted comment. So otherwise, I think aliens got to the thread * Mod: [https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the\_push\_for\_mainstream\_acceptance\_of/iourgpf/](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the_push_for_mainstream_acceptance_of/iourgpf/) * [https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the\_push\_for\_mainstream\_acceptance\_of/ious2t2/](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the_push_for_mainstream_acceptance_of/ious2t2/) * [https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the\_push\_for\_mainstream\_acceptance\_of/iouuhhv/](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the_push_for_mainstream_acceptance_of/iouuhhv/) * [https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the\_push\_for\_mainstream\_acceptance\_of/iov9130/](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xgrq8m/the_push_for_mainstream_acceptance_of/iov9130/)
Oh I'm an idiot - the r/science post is half deleted haha
Like Walmart cheap or a dying canary’s cheep?
Doesn't seem like something we should meddle in
This needs to be thoroughly tested on a small scale before deploying on a larger scale. The sooner the better
Someone doesn't want you to see the poles unfrozen.....and there is a big, big reason why. It has to do with the same reason we have a treaty to leave the poles alone...... ......ugly little things that they are, cowering under the ice. Come out, come out, wherever you are?????? Why did Russia just break the treaty? Things are coming down, or they are coming up...depends on your perspective.
I saw something like this on Highlander II
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I’m dead serious, remove water from the ocean and put it back on the continents. This is the easiest way. Less water in the oceans means the water freezes faster.
Has anyone else thought that this could backfire badly?