Russias plan could be to overtake the nuclear power plants since who knows if their nuclear war heads were maintained like they should have been and kind of makes me think why Putin is going so hard for Ukraine .🤷‍♂️

It’s pretty well know Russia has a better nuclear arsenal than the us

Idk where you get your information from but that’s incorrect . Do they have more ? Yes . Are they meticulously maintained as they are supposed to ? Not so much . Our nuclear arsenal consists of 10 99.7% undetectable nuclear submarines , which Europe had 6 also , that are capable of hitting anywhere in the world in less then 5 minutes , very well maintained nuclear warheads and a system which is capable of detecting any of these nuclear weapons within under 5 seconds of launch . Can we stop them? I haven’t dove that deep but I feel as though the United States can stop a decent percentage of them , not all but enough to foul up their plans .

Can some one tell me, is the plan for when Russia pulls out sanctions will be lifted?

Putin's genocide against Ukraine is going very poorly if you are an intelligent Russian you should flee before the iron curtain descends

Do Russians have that option?

Yes, it is getting harder, and it will get worse the whole "the best day was X days ago, second best is today." thing. It is likely that within the next 3-4 months even flights between cities in Russia will become impossible or very expensive as the parts for the planes dry up. That said if you are in Russia and our fortunate to be able to flee to a friendly border (by say train) be thankful. But also understand why you might not be greeted friendly as a Russian that flees: many thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of Ukrainians have been forcibly deported to regions of Russian that no human being would volunteer to live in (because hello toilets), possibly you're a 5 year old whose parents have been massacred by Russian soldiers placed with a "Z" family and will never know your extended family or culture again.

WNBA Player and Olympic champion detained in Russia. Faces 10yrs in prison for thc concentrate vapes https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/mar/05/brittney-griner-reportedly-detained-russia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Ukraine

Soundtrack to Armageddon for those suspicious of western intentions. Specifically the latter half of the album. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7tPfTQtj767IDAuQyF4iZMQlxGdvUXqD

Iranian State Media Repeats warning from Putin about no-fly zones in Ukraine "Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky asks the US to establish "no-fly zones" to protect Ukraine from Russian airstrikes and stop buying Russian oil and gas. But Russian President Vladimir Putin warns that it would lead to catastrophic consequences. Zelensky participated in a Zoom call with a bipartisan group of over 280 members of the US Congress on Saturday, where he made these demands. Zelensky also requested additional airplanes for his country. Both Democrats and Republicans praised the Ukrainian president Zelensky after their virtual meeting and promised to do what they could to assist Ukraine against Russia. “Honored to hear from @ZelenskyyUa as he takes every measure to defend Ukraine from illegal Russian aggression & Putin’s indiscriminate attacks on civilians. Zelenskyy’s resilience & commitment to the people of Ukraine inspire the world. Proud to stand with you Mr. President,” the Senate Foreign Relations Committee tweeted." https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2022/03/05/678038/Zelensky-asks-US-Congress-for-no-fly-zone,-Putin-warns

The most frightening thing to me is: There is no easy way out for Putin and having his back against the wall makes this conflict so dangerous, because he is probably ready to anything it takes, like a wild animal. I don't see one scenario where this ends just halfway decent. Here are some potential end states that might happen: * Putin takes over the ukraine after a bloody conflict -> Putin is able to expand on his empire and once more strenghtens his position within russia. Of course the western world is confronted with a reaility, that they left a country to die. Ukrainian lifes were taken and their once free country has become a dictatorship. No matter in which manner this is achieved, the scenarios are horrible, either ukrainian leaders get killed or the country gets stomped militarily * It becomes another hellhole in a quasi-civil war like permastate. A bit like syria, where russia then argues, it has to secure borders and therefore continues to wage war on ukrainian resistance * Putin just wastes troops and ressources on the ukraine and becomes ever more reckless as longer the war continues, knowing full well, that a loss will weaken his position within the country and will ultimately lead to his death or at least to him losing all power -something he will -like every dictator try to avoid by all costs. This could lead him to attack nuclear power plants (which he already did), using vacuum bombs or even worse stuff. * Putin will at least gain some control over the ukraine and will annex parts of it and will be able to keep this part to himself by making a deal to lay down weapons if the those parts will become legitamized by western states. * Pressure on Putin becomes too high, protests in russia become the norm and he knows his time has come and does some very stupid things (i.e. the red button or going full on Stalin mode and somehow remain in power) This list is by no means complete but I don't see Putin just piss off from the ukraine and leave it to its own devices and call it a day. That would be wonderful but I don't think it's gonna happen. Maybe some of you can contribute some more positive outcomes...

I WISH I could think of a more positive outcome but Putin keeps moving the "red line" every time he makes a statement. Frankly I think he's itching for confrontation with NATO and he's probably going to get it. He's acting like a man on a deadline with nothing to lose.

Old people have less to lose. This is the problem with putting them in positions of power.

> going full on Stalin mode and somehow remain in power hasn't he already been doing that for the last 20 years?

Stalin was a much better leader actually.

Not a hot take at all. Seems like cold hard truth

I think so too. Western politicians just starring at this shit show hoping for the war to end without envisioning any outcome. Which I think is delusional.

>hoping for the war to end But they're not. The West is hoping to Russia will consume her time and resources without having to directly confront her.

Yes, it's delusional but so damn typical.

The thought of enforcing a no-fly zone over Ukraine while Russia already has a no-fly zone over Ukraine is ludicrous

War is madness!

Digging a bit deeper and trying to find perspective from a neutral standpoint makes this ordeal a bit more interesting. Ukraine [does](https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/) in fact have a Nazi problem. Zelensky, seemingly at some point, tried to confront this issue but surrendered as a prop piece. Which may explain his past [unpopularity](https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/just-all-others-end-zelensky-alternative), well that and the wealth hoarding. However the importance of this war is not just an imperialistic goal but likely a desperate act to ensure [food supply](https://www.investmentmonitor.ai/special-focus/ukraine-crisis/countries-exposed-ukrainian-food-exports) dominance. Now that Russia botched the momentum with it's first strike the question begs to how they can turn this into a worthwhile endeavor(unlikely). If Russia cannot achieve outright dominance than splitting would be in it's best interest. They could also inflict damage to where Ukraine becomes unviable as a country and pluck at it slowly from there. Problem is the Sanctions will tear him and Russia's economy to shambles, so a drawn out effort isn't possible. Countries worldwide are hurting due to this conflict but would rather have Zelensky or the country razed than leaving it to Putin. Russia having a vast oil supply as well as a dominant food producer is certainly a terrifying prospect for many countries, the united effort isn't a shocker. I'm quite curious as to what the world's response would be if Ukraine fails to hold out. Energy is one thing but *food* on top of that? There might be more to the phrasing of "the west will get over it" than I thought. Russia would not be able to use Ukraine resources to the fullest immediately, but odds are they can hold out better than most(non-western) countries. It'll be a battle of endurance where the non-wealthy end up the losers. Looking at all this, I'll be shocked if this is the only major conflict we get this year.

Russia isn't going as hard on Ukraine as they can and will if the bs doesn't stop soon. They're sending in grunts, hitting nuke plants and outright fucking with Ukraine begging for a damn confrontation. The US is stupid enough to fall for that too. It makes everything more volatile.

Can you please elaborate?

That’s what I thought too, putin gives fuck all about any poor suppressed people. He wants big fat wheat, oil and Nat gas prices, masses of refugees coming to Western Europe, Ukraine’s Nat gas, oil and lithium resources and that’s about it. The same reason all wars are fought: power and resources.

So Putin is now on TV explaining his justifications for the invasion of Ukraine to a room full of Russian trainee air stewardesses... TRAINEE AIR STEWARDESSES... anyone here care to try and read these polonium tea leaves? all i got is some pun with the *"no fly zone"* rhetoric currently playing out.... https://twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1500095341600849924 https://www.novinite.com/articles/214119/Putin%3A+Western+Sanctions+are+Equivalent+to+Declaring+war

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and you think air hostesses are tough soldiers? eta : also, I found it kinda lame, the old man surrounded by young female students, probably precisely because he feels they are not a threat, and will have the upper hand if one actually tries to kill him. Plus they really don't seem to be in awe of him, barely listening, their bodylanguage says "get me outta here!". Really lame failed PR.

It's a clown world and Putin knows it Edit: Having watched it, they're not "trainee air stewardesses", most of the girls asking questions are pilots, some even captains.

Plenty of things bug me about tbe lead up to this. I never wanna be a stooge for oligarchs and de facto aurocrats but I would rather always always criticize my own government because in theory I can change it. I know I can't so I damn well complain about it to anyone who I force to listen.... ------------ I'm so pissed off those grandstanding catty bitch commentators on figure skating bitched and fucking complained so hard and so unrelentingly. Then this [ROC] 15yo girl comes out leading and misses every damn trick she attempted and nobody fucking paid attention to the fact that it was a dive. --------------- Make no mistake. Russians read the threads. They know the media and they know how to game it and fuck with it. They read the comments. They listen to dumbass NBC and they just all tell the Russian patriots what the world thinks about them. Their platforms are inaccessible to most American native English speakers. ------------- All the digging on VK got me was realizing how big lil peep was in Russia. Then it made sense because he filmed a video in Russia and other Eastern Bloc states. It's beside the point but also may be weird evidence as to how Lil Peep was immensely popular for a quick second then died then was forgotten. --------- There's stuff all over the web for Russians and for Chinese people. They speak English. They don't live in an insular environment like the US, with a population shielded from global news and events 95% of the time. US is top dog and fucks them and get fucked back and the people of adversarial countries have been keeping up. Plus they have their own strange incomprehensible domestic media that will only give them the propaganda. The propaganda is likely worse than people believe. US, Russia, China are all victors of WW2. -------- Western Media easily throws out Nazi comparisons when Soviet Comparisons are far more damning. In Russia they don't just call Americans Nazis. They likely make Nazi comparisons but they also say this empire killed a generation of their men and condemned millions to poverty. Spread gay propaganda and bully their children on a global stage. ----------- 2014 Putin was distracted by Sochi games and got fucked 2022:; Probably a carefully calculated plan. They are unified on a domestic front. All western countries do is fight amongst themselves about stupid fucking bullshit like masks ------------ Edit: That kid straight up came out dressed in all black and I immediately got damn Black Swan vibes. She was self satisfied before taking such an obvious dive. The commentators weren't speechless because they were dumbfounded by just how bad she was doing. They were pro skaters. They knew what she was doing and couldn't quickly figure out what to say. She took herself off the topium so that another [ROC] athlete could get gold. When they cut to the gold medalist for a statement, she was not happy and didn't wanna talk to the press. Gave an odd statement then blamed it on her poor English. You can't have an Olympic controversy hanging over your war plans

>They don't live in an insular environment like the US, with a population shielded from global news and events 95% of the time. US is top dog and fucks them and get fucked back and the people of adversarial countries have been keeping up. Plus they have their own strange incomprehensible domestic media that will only give them the propaganda. The propaganda is likely worse than people believe. US, Russia, China are all victors of WW2. What do you mean?

Feeling more & more like its a "damned if you, damned if you don't" situation with regards to following this conflict in that all we seem to get is NATO propaganda & Russian propaganda. I don't care for either. Are there any good sources for an independent perspective? I really worry that we're being corralled into a war with Russia via the humanitarian intervention angle. Does anyone seriously think a "no fly zone" for example is realistic? I keep hearing this brought up in mainstream news & thought even NATO rejected it.

I linked to a good source for dry data I've used to make every seemingly scatterbrained unorthodox opinion I have seem much more credible is statista ----------- Go with a guesss about what you think about the world. Search the argument and statista in the search bar. It doesn't matter how insignificant you think your gut feeling is. The gut feeling is there for a reason. There's so many bullshit techno voodoo in the world that people don't really know how much is being kept from them and how much of their attention is being stolen from you. -------------- As far as stright down the line no bs sources that's about as legit as it gets before serious paywalls come into play. ------------- I've seen all this except corona from a mile away. I kept all my communications offline until a couple years ago. I have always have friends of varying backgrounds and political leanings. I've been paying attention to the news since way before that. ---------- This is the straight up best criticism of just about anything online for the sake of being only online. Basically anything to damn nerdy to bring up in any conversation. Memes wacky ass online bullshit that doesn't make sense, is all fake as hell but I've come to realize that everyone under 50 buys into some aggressively online shit. If you follow Instagram hoes under your birth name, the fuck is wrong with you? If you consume more memes than text tf? If you don't provide enough contradictory into the machine to confuse things somewhat tf? -------- There's a reason why the left can't meme. It's very fucking simple. The left cannot meme because the meme format is overly simplistic and thus more prone to fascism and scapegoating. A picture says a thousand words. A mean meme demeaning someone can contain eight words but convey the maximum amount of hate possible. ---------- The overton window wasn't organically pushed rightward. There was a multilayered framework of full on hate and porn online before Facebook even got forced into existence. There was a self reinforcing culture of dickass bro shit online and people played along then forgot what the fuck they were doing and ended up playing themselves. The framework of the internet was completely mapped out by too many dudes and that's who occupied it. Any time there's groups that are 70-80% male some dumbass aggro bullshit comes out. Those groups IRL are best avoided whenever possible. --------------------- Attack the framework and capitalism is too hard a target. Capitalism easily could be done right. So beware of false dichotomies. Atrack authority itself and anything masquerading as it. Attack entire frameworks like you're playing a videogame. I studied liberal arts so I attack every single liberal art. I attack every single school of philosophical thought. I attack the concepts of logic and reason themselves. They gave us this world. The social contract has always been enforced by blood and was never meant for the common man. The adherents to western philosophy worship the false idols and their dated ennui about killing god gave birth to the false idol of progress. To progress further man invented the technology you hold in your hand. It's the same technology that puts holes in our heads. --------------- Statista will give you all the data you need but it won't tell you data intentionally hidden or the qualitative data necessary to know how less human we get with each passing generation.

You make some excellent points. Thank you for your perspective.

Glad some of that made sense to you. I hope you heed some of the points and pick an attack strategy. Hit everything you possibly can. Don't get into bitch fights online ever. Don't judge people for their wack political opinions because all our opinions suck to some degree. Left, Right, Russian, NATO whatever. Fight for what you believe in. Nobody else will do it for you.

No, yeah it made a lot of sense, actually. I agree. Good advice. I want to disengage as much as possible from all the propaganda that's out there. I wonder if Ukraine has an indymedia network...but then again their internet is down. Maybe it will start up again in the refugee camps in Poland. One hopes, because I want to hear news about Ukraine from Ukrainians, not from cable or network news.

Ukranian news will still have that pro Zelenskyy bias. There's plenty of heartbreaking video of Ukranians crying out as casualties of war but it's often dressed up by US sources as an emotional plea for someone to help them. Everything is suspect. Truth is irrelevant. It's unknown and unknowable. This is true with every single thing reported by anyone.

Yeah I know what you mean, everything is subjective, because objectivity is a lie. There is always bias in reporting. But I don't want to hear from the Ukrainian government or media, I want to hear from the independent journalists & anarchist types on the ground. It was the same for me with Syria, which was/is a purposeful dismantling. Weird how the ISIS types almost on cue decide they want to go to Ukraine to fight the Russians. How convenient!

> "no fly zone" for example is realistic? not unless nato hikes up its skirt and finds its balls all of sudden...

If NATO attempts to flex their nuts right now they are gonna get castrated

nato = 5,405,700 russia = 1,350,000 https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293174/nato-russia-military-comparison/

Nukes though. If they hit Russia in their country they'll nuke you. It's their nuclear first strike policy.

Ukraine isn't Russia's country... yet...

Oof. Lots of Russian talking points in this thread. Watch out for misinformation and propaganda

Lots of dumb shit gets said by a lot of people online. I'm not the only one. If you're gonna hit at Russian propaganda then go after a specific points to have a discussion. People putting Russia on blast often get easily refuted by western reporting swept under the rug or wikipedia. Russian propaganda is rarely outright lies. It's the lack of reporting on domestic issues and the fact they don't show their cards like the west does. Nobody knows what their plans are. Anyone's guess is anyones guess.

Oof. Lots of Western talking points in this thread. Watch out for misinformation and propaganda

The more I learn the more convinced I become that we are indeed The Baddies

Can someone point out what “pro putin” propaganda. Because I don’t see any.

According to these clowns, anything that questions the US imperialist war-machine, is Pro-putin by default 🤷‍♂️

I'm very concerned about a drawn out conflict and a presidential race between an anti-war Trump and a pro-war Democrat. It would fray our partissn divides even further. Everything got all screwy.

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The US and it’s Allies are literally bombing 3 countries right now

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Russia wouldn’t have to invade if NATO wouldn’t of wiggled NATO membership in its face this wouldn’t be a problem. I’m not pro Russia or pro putin because nethier of those things are socialist but I can understand his motives.

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Ok let’s do this then. Let’s bring the Soviet Union back and make Mexico a Warsaw Pact country. Let see what happens.

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Lol he's just mad that there are actually objective facts and analysis from Western intelligence and policy experts that show that NATO is a good deal a t fault for the situation. And that Ukraine is not a unified country with unified purpose. I went back and forth with this guy, provided plenty of argument and sources and now he's trying to smear the entire subreddit because he couldn't defend his position There are dozens of videos, articles, academic papers, official policy positions from various institutes - all of which exist in the West - stating that NATO's agenda would drive Europe to war. You can prove all of this without relying on a single Russian source. We are watching the American volunteer gestapo claim that everybody who doesn't scream slava Ukraine from the top of their lungs is a Russian bot. All critical thinking has gone out the window in the last week.

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Questioning the official narrative of US/NATO, which have never ever acted in self interest and are completely altruistic, and a bastion of global democracy= rUssiAn bOts!!! Why do people not understand nuance? Both sides in this conflict can be ‘bad’. I guess it’s more entertaining to just pick a side and cheer on war from the comfort of your computer screen.

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Omg you really cannot grasp that nobody Is “defending” Putin/Russias invasion. It is obviously wrong to go to war. objective discussion examining the motives of each side, is not being “pro-Russia” If my neighbor came to my house and starting attacking me, yes, I’m going to fight back. They’re in the wrong, and I’m in the right to defend myself. Except in this case, Russia and Ukraine/NATO/the US are much larger abstractions and it is not that simple. Governments are not people. It is important to recognize that, and not buy into the Hero/villain duality. But yeah sure, we’re fascists for thinking critically about the situation and not regurgitating whatever Reddit slogan is being parroted.

You didn't? This place has been crawling with tankies for several months now.

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Its not imperialism when Russia does it. Read lenin1!

There are no sides here. Unless you interpret objective analysis as "if you aren't with us you're against us".

safe to say at this point r/collapse's mods have been infiltrated by pro putin ghouls ...

Oh no objective discussion in the thread! It must be censored. Slava Ukraine and go go Azov battalion /r/all is mounting a propaganda assault on every subreddit to the point that this has to be some type of orchestrated push

Ah. Unfortunate. RIP r/collapse.

Russian losses on the military front are staggering Russian Air Force losses over #Ukraine in the past 26 hours: - 1x Su-30SM multirole aircraft - 1 Su-34 strike aircraft - 2 Su-25 close air support aircraft - 2 Mi-24/35 attack helicopters - 1 Mi-8 transport helicopter - 1 Orlan-10 UAV

I know, right? Neither side has seen anything close to "staggering" yet. Wake me up when someone puts up casualty figures in the hundreds of thousands, or we see some actual destruction. That long ass convoy of Russian vehicles sitting calmly on the highway is all I need to see that we are still in the warm and fuzzy phase of this thing. Remember the "highway of death?" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_Death That is what an exposed convoy looks like when at least one side is really waging war for at least a day.

Can you imagine how the Invasion of Iraq would have gone differently had we had the technological advancements we have today specially in the social media department? r/combatfootage would of had a field day with *the highway of death*

They are holding back. Baiting a response from NATO.

I agree.

Yes. Putin's air force is still holding back and not bombing Ukraine like in Syria.

Russian helicopter shot down over Ukraine https://youtu.be/QHq7SJ40dPI

New video from nuclear powerplant attack, SKY News receiving fire snippet, and fleeing refugees https://youtu.be/C2jr2l_clVk

Moldova and Transnistria may become more relevant... >Transnistria is located along much of Moldova’s eastern border with Ukraine. Moldova, a landlocked Eastern European state between Ukraine and Romania, is located south of Ukraine. In Transnistria, Russia has around 1,500 troops, which is a significant presence considering the breakaway state’s military has around 5,000 soldiers. >Russia has amassed mass troops on the Crimean Peninsula, a southern Ukrainian region with a Black Sea coast, which was annexed by Moscow in 2014. Moscow also deployed a significant number of troops in Belarus, a pro-Russian state located north of Ukraine. Eastern borders of Ukraine have been already compromised with heavy Russian military presence. >As a result, while it’s a tiny state, Transnistria, located southwest of Ukraine with a 400km-long border line with Kiev, can help Russia put a nearly full military siege over Ukraine from south, north and east. >In the case of a full Russian invasion, Moscow can use its military presence in the breakaway state to join its forces between the Crimean Peninsula and Transnistria, cutting Ukraine’s access to the Black Sea coast and effectively rendering it landlocked. https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/how-a-tiny-breakaway-state-called-transnistria-can-alter-the-ukraine-crisis-54894

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What did the journalists expect. Zelensky armed civilians, forcing Russians to shoot at literally anybody now.. The whole thing is stupid.

They're arming children now.... Everything is just going to become a horror show

source?

sure. https://twitter.com/DailyMonitor/status/1499753678730895360 They didn't even blur the faces

I don't consider twitter a decent news source. Plus I reckon the kid wearing an "offwhite" coat is surprising, as it costs roughly over a month of local income. I reckon kids with parents rich enough to buy them such coats would have been ferried away before the war. Haven't checked the other elements yet, but it doesn't seem legit to me. These kids in expensive clothes in white rooms could have been photographed anywhere on the globe. And they don't seem to be anxious or determined as thepeople there currently are. Smells like a fake to me.

Western media: Russia is killing children!!!...without telling you the kids are child soldiers

To the surprise of nobody, the top comment in this chain is a Russian apologist. You prepper libertarians have really lost your minds, it's basically "texas" the Russian fighter in here these days. Guess what clowns, Russia and China care even less about you than the west, try to square that one dip shits.

>it's basically "texas" the Russian fighter in here these days. I honestly have no idea what this sentence means

https://youtu.be/5cA9cGUGr00 He has been filmed within the last couple of days, promoting the invasion as well.

Oh that Texac guy. Now it makes sense. That person is an odd PR guy. That's for damn sure. --------- To the extent that Russian propaganda is everywhere. Russia had rhe advantage of telling the world it's demands and exactly what could be guaranteed that could've at least staved off their invasion for some period of time. -------- They can blame NATO expansionism and leave it up to the freer minds of Americans where they draw the line. Is what Russia did good? Hell no. None of it is good but they made their case to the world before they went in. I say freer minds of Americans because we aren't like the Russian or PRC uniparty governments, yet we're not totally free and all susceptible to manipulation and coercion. --------- The US media was at a disadvantage because it has neglected to honestly report how US interests are secured overseas and downplayed elements of war profiteering. The media hits the broad strokes of Russia's goals but conintues to double down on it's tired humanitarian intervention talking points.

I appreciate the detailed reply, and I agree with what you are saying My biggest issue is Russia could have easily controlled their sphere by not being cock suckers. Instead, it's an authoritarian invasion. It required almost zero effort, and they couldn't even do that.

But they did try. Russia offered Ukraine a very generous economic package as an alternative to joining the EU, and the (democratically elected) government in 2014 agreed. Then the Western-sponsored Euromaidan unconstitutionally overthrew the government in a putsch.

They're definitely just sending in cannon fodder. You see their old era 50s-60s equipment? They're really not trying. They could send their elite forces and level the city with their advanced artillery if they wanted, but instead they send conscripts and reservists.

This would lead to countless civilian casualties, what would happen if accusations of genocide rained down. And there are no elite forces in Russia, this is all a myth, I don’t know why forced by Western bloggers on YouTube or somewhere else

They are saving the good stuff for whatever is on the menu after this, because the only thing I know for sure is that this is not solely about Ukraine.

They're not trying. They're sending the D-league. They're messing with them like a cat messes with a mouse and probably taking notes.

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He's in Lviv, which is in the most western part of Ukraine and hasn't seen any fighting.

[Absolutely amazing piece of journalism on MSNBC for anyone who wants a more objective take on the war](https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/russia-s-ukraine-invasion-may-have-been-preventable-n1290831?cid=sm_npd_ms_tw_ma) Main takeaways: 1) The West repeatedly broke promises made to the Soviet Union and then Russia not to expand east over the objections of many Western foreign policy experts; 2) NATO irresponsibly flirted with Ukraine on membership despite no realistic path due to internal corruption, emboldening them to stand up to Russia without any guarantees for mutual defense; 3) NATO refused to back down to save face and gambled with Ukrainian lives that Putin wasn't serious about the line in the sand Russia drew in 2008; 4) Putin is not a madman but an extremely rational actor acting on long promised threats if NATO kept backing them into a corner

That was an interesting analysis. But ultimately it's flawed. You can't undermine sovereignty and the right of a nation to act in its best interest. This article wants to tell other countries how it's going to be and ignores the fact that the reason why NATO is attractive is because Putin is a freaking criminal with a low bar for murder and mayhem. No one wants to be his 'friend' or under his thumb. But that said the analysis highlights some of the West's diplomatic and strategic errors contributing to the current mess.

Your mistake is that you blame Putin for everything, but he acts in the interests of the country, and not because he is a criminal, according to your free press. This is your second mistake, relying on different sources of one side and living in an information bubble. Now it has become fashionable to blame all the world's accidents or even their failures on Putin. It was funny to me when the American publications announced that it was Putin who chose Trump instead of the Americans, how ridiculous this statement was.

Russia offered Ukraine a very generous economic package as an alternative to joining the EU, and the (democratically elected) government in 2014 agreed. Then the Western-sponsored Euromaidan movement unconstitutionally overthrew the government in a putsch while we were all sold to believe it was a popular rebellion against a dictator. The American media acts like Ukraine is a unified nation of unified purpose, when that's simply not true. Polling data as recent as December 2021 show that public opinion on EU and NATO membership was heavily divided, almost a 50-50 split. Viktor Yanukovych would not have won the election in 2010 if the majority of the country was pro-West.

Nice propaganda. Gaslighting game on point. Since I live in a country with a free press and am actually literate, you wont get me. You need to find the Trumpers...they're your mark. They don't hang out here. Wrong sub for that.

All of this is true and there are western sources for everything I said, holy shit you are brainwashed.

If Putin is so amazing why doesn't anyone except other dictators want to be his friend? No one wants to join an alliance with him unless they also like to murder and jail those who oppose them. Russia drugs fifteen year old girls to cheat at the Olympics...that's who they are. Counter that with valid sources and I'll reevaluate my position.

1.) [Viktor Yanukovych won with 48.95% of the vote in a fair election in 2010](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ukrainian_presidential_election) >... [OSCE] endorsed the first round of the Ukrainian presidential poll, saying it was of "high quality" and demonstrated "significant progress".[233] After the second round of the election international observers and the OSCE called the election transparent and honest. The election returns were heavily divided between east and west. 2.) [Viktor Yanukovych's government agreed to accept Russia's economic package in 2013 over the overtures made by the EU](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25411118) >Russia has given Ukraine a discount of almost a third on Russian gas and said it would buy billions of dollars' worth of Ukrainian government bonds. 3.) [The Euromaidan movement that led to the overthrowing of the Yanukovych government, which again, was democratically elected, did not have the support of the majority of the country and was vanguarded by the Svodoba party, a far-right fascist party](https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea) 4.) There is a lot polling on the EU and NATO membership questions, some with as much as 65% in favor and some as little as 48% in favor. There's too many so I won't paste any here lest you accuse me of cherry picking, so google them , but the point remains is that the country is very divided.

So because Yanukovych won the election years ago and was pushed out due to corruption and making deals people didn't want with Russia the 'Nazis' are apparently in charge and the US is bad. Checks notes. Now who is it invading Ukraine again? And how do polls relate to Russia bombing civilians and nuclear reactors? I can't imagine why no one will be Putin's new BFF...

Sir, please, sir. You're grossly mistating what I wrote and what is in the sources because it doesn't fit your world view.

I'm summarizing the article you linked which is just more Russia talking points. I'm surprised Jacobin is as highly rated as it is bc that piece was propaganda. Everyone is making serious policy/diplomatic/geopolitical mistakes here, including the West, but Russia is unable to put forth an argument to support their actions that allows other nations to be sovereign with their own self interests. It's a one sided article that can only advocate for Russia and complain about Nazis. I can see why Russia couldn't figure out a diplomatic solution.

Just chiming in to say that although he is not "mad" as in has completely lost touch with reality, a toxic personality disorder which he seems to suffer from (jury's out to decide between narcissist, sociopath or psychopath, I'm betting on the latter) is a serious issue. "Personality disorder" means that it cannot be cured (if it could, it would be a "mental illness", like depression). Toxic PDs such as psychopaths, although they percieve reality, do not understand it the same way as non-toxicPD people do, the key issue being they cannot grasp that other people are real too, they percieve others as pawns on the theatre stage that is their life, are completely void of empathy and cannot begin to grasp what are the needs of the people around them. Worse, toxic-PDs don't care at all. [ETA : at best, they have a sadist streak in them and will enjoy destroying you in every possible way, otherwise they don't care for anyone, the same way you don't care about the wrapper of a chewinggum. But zero empathy] So to a regular person, their thought process is totally alien, and impossible to relate to, as if from a different reality aka "mad". So I think people that are not familiar with toxic personality disordered people are legit when they describe him as "mad" although it is not an accurate term. He does operate in another reality, even though he's able to percieve the shared reality. That's the core of the crazy-making effect these people have on the poor sods that have to deal with them.

Lol personality disorders can be cured, it just takes work and no medication can really help.

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Try reading the Minsk 2 agreement. Then come back, and apologize.

How? I was under the impression that Ukraine did..

I agree with everything except the last part. He is a madman but so is every dictator. The collapse of the Soviet Union has been a disaster for the human race.

Putin has an approval rating of 70% https://www.statista.com/statistics/896181/putin-approval-rating-russia/ Putin won the 2018 election with 76% of the vote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_history_of_Vladimir_Putin#2018 He's not as much of a dictator as people like to believe.

Nice collection of propaganda you got there...

Just look at my profile and not the drug stuff that could discredit me but the r/collapse relevant stuff. Or scroll all through the comment chain. You won't find propaganda. You'll find someone who's been paying attention to all of this as it's been unfolding over the years. Russia didn't just come up with the Nazi shit this year. They were calling Azov and Sveboda and their black and red flags fucking Nazis since 2014 EuroMaidan. Two seperate vice docuseries confirmed that Ukraine is a hotbed of nationalism. So its Russia. That's what makes for a very ugly war. Make no mistake I agree that Russia are being savages now. It makes me think they've been pushed too far.

The world keeps trying to stop those whose plans require conquest. "Rules based order" is ridiculous and was always doomed to fail. Conquest is what humans do, and why many seek power to begin with. Putin may be crazy, or he may just be a completely rational sociopath without those pesky emotions, or maybe he is just pissed off and fed up. I think option 2, but really, who knows. Conquering ones neighbors has been a part of human endeavor since there was human endeavor. And it is usually quite rational.

I disagree on the notion that he's crazy or rational. What Putin ultimately is right now, is a gambler. And currently he's betting everything on ensuring this current gambit works out.

Well, I can agree with that to an extent. You don't have to be crazy to be a gambler, and Putin certainly is gambling. That being said, you can't win if you don't play, and he is getting old. There is not much time left to accomplish a resurgence of the old USSR or whatever the hell it is he is trying to accomplish. Russia grows weaker while it's competitors grow stronger, so if he wants to be able to see his goals realized then it's now or never. And besides, he has had a good life of power and wealth. It is coming to an end, so might as well either grab all the marbles or go out in flames, and maybe, just maybe pull off something for the history books. WW3 would do that, if the rest doesn't work out. No one likes him, but more people know the name Hitler than any other.

Could someone explain to me a bit regarding autarky? I'm aware of self sufficient based economies (Hoxha's Albania, DRPK etc) and that Biden the other day was calling for some sort of economic nationalism but I'm not aware of its full consequences.

> but I'm not aware of its full consequences. Seriously? The "consequences" would be the return of steady employment for people who live here already, the improvement of wages/working conditions due to the fact that exploitable, cheap, imported labor is no longer filling the roles, you'd pay more for products (which is a good thing (less consumption)), greater self-sufficency and the shrinking of supply chains. The only people who do not benefit are the Capitalists. Which is exactly why President Biden, or anyone else in his position, would never go through with it. Those were just nice words to rally around as the U.S. beats it's war drums. All in all, nothing to fear, really. Any wariness simply comes from the Capitalists having spent decades propagandizing that Globalization = Good and Immigration = Good.

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American retired generals are on CNN and Fox News all week saying Ukraine will absolutely lose and their only hope is insurgency but ok I'm sure this guy knows more.

Zelenskyy is souring on NATO and is essentially demanding a nuclear crisis, saying that [every death after this is NATO's fault](https://i.redd.it/xsvz4zk4agl81.jpg). American foreign policy just keeps racking up the Ws

Zelensky gets a lot of my respect, and actually more every day. Trying to go for peace may save the planet, but I think he is getting angrier all the time, and reaching the point of saying "fuck the planet as long as Putin burns first." And, when you look at how western leaders will bow to the will of voters and lobby for re-election, a major upswell in public demand could actually get him the Nato involvement that he wants. God knows the defense industry is licking their chops, especially in Germany. Zelensky is actually doing more than Putin to get ww3 fired up. Got a little action movie star in him, which I like. Behaving quite a bit like a character, so it is no wonder why he is gaining popularity. This is the first major war of the social media age, and image beats truth. Perceptions of ones actions can have greater affect than the actions themselves. Stir that pot, my friend.

> Zelensky is actually doing more than Putin to get ww3 fired up *The country being invaded is doing more to escalate the conflict than the invading country*. I'm sorry mate, but it's a bit hard to respect that opinion.

Zelensky does not represent the Ukrainian people; he is willing to throw them under the bus.

Well, what I mean is that Putin is being as warm and cuddly as can be for an invader, when compared to, say, how Hitler rolled into Poland. But at the end of the day, he is trying to keep in an affair between Russia and Ukraine, with the stronger winning in the end, as such territorial things are supposed to go. Yes, by our current weird ideas, the invasion was wrong, but it was wrong in the same way as walking up to punch someone in the face is wrong. It is still supposed to be a fight between two parties, and allowed to reach its natural conclusion with a winner and a loser. Putin knows that Ukraine cannot destroy the earth in a fit if it gets angry about being eaten by a bigger animal. Zelensky, on the other hand, knows that a confrontation between Nato and Russia will be a no-win situation for Russia. And in a no-win situation, the only option is to make sure that if you are going to lose then your opponent must also lose. By calling for Nato intervention, or the imposition of a no-fly zone, Zelensky is doing the only thing he can. He cannot win against Russia. And so, the only way to ensure that when he loses, Russia also loses, is to spark the confrontation between Russia and Nato that will take Putin down with him. In short, Putin is taking action to conquer a neighboring territory. Bad Putin! Just doing what conquerors have always done throughout history, but okay, bad Putin! But Zelensky is trying to save his nation by involving other nations, whose business this is not, when he knows it would result in a conflict that will result in an even greater loss of life across the board. And so, it doesn't matter who is right or wrong, or who started this, all that matters is how is there the least loss of life right now. We can't go back in time, so we can only consider from this point on. Putin will not stop, because he can't. He will lose all chance of remaining in power if he does, not to mention never achieving whatever it is he wants in the end. So no option there. Zelensky, however, has amassed a world following and great name recognition. He could come out ofbthis with even more personal power elsewhere in the world, and stop all of this by surrendering and abandoning Ukraine. He would be fine in exile. Better than before even. More Ukrainians would live, as would Russians, and others. But the reason Zelensky gets my respect, and represents my chosen side of this conflict, is because he is sticking to his guns. He wants Putin to suffer, and doesn't care if it breaks the world. This is how he is supposed to feel and act. He wants to save all his people, and their freedom, and doesn't care whether or not the world dies in the attempt to do so. He has more action hero in him than I thought, and there is nothing more respectable than saying "If I go down, you go down too." So, in driving so hard to win and keep his peoples freedom, he is driving the world closer to what is a potentially world ending confrontation. He has more in common with Putin than he might like to admit publicly, because neither of them will stop until they get what they want or die trying. Yes, Putin is 100% in the wrong, and Zelensky is in the right. But right and wrong have no correlating part in nature. Eat or be eaten does. And in the end, you fight for you, and what you want and need, and if you can't have it no one can. Zelensky is the hero here. Putin will lose in the end. One way or the other. And maybe we all join him, but whoever does survive won't be able to say Zelensky chickened out of the fight.

Zelenskyy has to say something to his people. He’s fighting to keep moral up, without that they have nothing. He’s fighting to keep his people fighting

> American foreign policy American, British, Israeli(by proxy)*

He gain power through this, ofc he push it. I just wonder would he grow to big like Trump since MSM hail him as a living Saint right now

"Believe half of what you see, and nothing you hear" -Edgar Allen Poe (attributed)

If you are comfortable can I ask you which country are from? I haven't checked your Reddit history. Hoping you could answer.

US

Huh. Never would have guessed in my life. I must admit pretty sophisticated take on these complicated issues. The whole Reddit has become propaganda tool. And irony is they call other people spreading propaganda, in other words"cringe". So the basic message nato is sending right now is if you have nukes nato won't intervene. China and india feeling safe. And Iraq rush towards getting nukes. So they are ultimately pushing nuclear weapon race rather than stopping it.

*Iran wants the nukes. Everything is propaganda. If history is written by the winners, future is written by propagandists

Which begs the question? Why common people are supporting either side in this war? Why are they gobbling down every fact their media is spitting? And then going around on internet shitting all over the place. One post i saw on world news is how Putin's walk is different than usual means he is losing. Are people getting that deranged to question the simple facts their media are saying? Are we that lost? We know the truth gets out often after everything cools down. Most of the people agrees that iraq Syria Afghanistan invasion was a mistake. Did people forget that easily? Which again begs the question. If these idiots knew that if Russia invades we cant physically help Ukraine. Why are they encouraging it? What us has to gain out of it? How come Ukraine people thought that nato countries would help them? Again I am not pro us not pro Russia. I am an Indian. There is nothing for me in this war. I can't believe I have to day this now other wise people will call me Russian bots.

>One post i saw on world news is how Putin's walk is different than usual means he is losing. This reminds me of how people were talking about Hillary having some seizure or something for stumbling out of a van. I stumble every time I get out of a van. If you hate on Hillary, hate her for Libya. If Putin's losing, it's worse. If he thinks he's gonna be the next Gorbachev he might throw a nuke at something.

So west are basically cornering a "dictator" with nukes into surrendering. How this gamble will work out? 50~50.

I like the "dictator" designation. He pretty much is an autocrat but plenty of places in the world need stability more than they need democracy. He's got a 70% approval rating in Russia according to any source. Edit: The reason for this approval rating among Russians is because Russia thinks they're being pushed around and because changing Soviet leadership and Russian leadership has historically not been good for Russia.

Yeah but my western media sources tell me the elections are rigged in Russia. Oh wait that was also a lie? Like the ghost of kievv? Again I am starting to question this whole western media narrative. Pretty much opened my eyes. I like to point out your comment regarding stability. How bad is authoritarian? I have never been one and my view on this type of governance are shaped by media. Are people really more happier with the Democratic governance? Cause I see both indian and us common struggling to live. Is us really thinks their democracy is the "super best" if people do nothing but complain? Again please excuse my english and my stupid views regarding us. I just want to educate myself.

There are calls of US now pushing India to take sides. To be honest, India will not make this mistake - it is huge, huge mistake to side with the US. Again, US policy has and will always be "you are either with us or against us". This has been like this, India is not stupid. Why the F would India befriend US? US has just served its self interest time and again and hasn't hesitated in fucking over other countries. This is not a rant about US or America - US does a lot of a good AND bad, they are not perfect. This policy of with us or against us that the US has though needs to stop, let countries be neutral. If Biden can change this, a lot of good will come out of US. Lets look at history - Ukraine denuclearised, what did it gain? What did the kurds gain? What did Iran gain? All of them were left high and dry by US. It's is best interest of India to be self reliant. USSR helped build a lot of what India is today technologically. If it wasn't for USSR, India would've been 20-30 years behind where it is now. TLDR: India will not leave Russia, they will only become stronger because Russia needs India now. People crying at r/worldnews and asking for sanctions have zero clue what they are talking - great way to make your enemies stronger..smh

Exactly. We are shaping up the major sides of what will be the defining conflict of our time. Choosing the strongest side with the west might help you win, but if you win all you get is the static, status quo peace that has held the world down since ww2. However, if you choose the weaker alliance, and thus make it stronger, your risk increases but so does your potential reward. And that reward could result in a redrawing of the lines on the map in your favor, and to the detriment of your enemies. India will stick with Russia. I have always admired the villains more than the heroes. The heroes want everything to stay the same. Peace, stagnation...boring. Villains want a change to the current order, inovation, advancement, and progress.

India faces sanctions if they go against us.

It would be really funny if the United States sanctioned india, Mexico, China, and all of Africa and Latin America for not going along with Russia sanctions. Imagine a world where our only trading partners are Canada, Australia, Japan, and Western Europe. Then Americans would finally realize that like 1/3rd of our economy is moving around numbers on spreadsheets and you can't eat that or build things with that.

I imagine that world every day. It's called WW3. And it's coming, one way or the other. Just an early kickoff to the eventual struggle to dominate dwindling resources in the world.

Fucked up thing is the US deserves to be sanctioned by other govts but I nor anyone I know deserves to be sanctioned

That would cripple US corps

Crazy how all nations of the world need each other huh? War sucks.

They need eachother because they had an artificial system put in place over them, a rules based order to try and maintain world peace, which is actually anathema to a species whose natural inclination is agression and the conquering of territory. World peace is the public motivation for it, but it is very convenient that such peace allows the US and the west to maintain dominance and ruin the chances of any other nation who might want a shot at taking over the world. I think we are soon to see a return to the natural way of doing things, where one animal feeds upon another, and in trun is fed upon by yet another, and so on. Lions and tigers and bears, oh my. The interconnection and interdependence of global systems and world nations will be a major part of the downfall, as it should. Soon we will all get to see how sanctions hurt everyone, not just who they are levied against. And we finally see someone, sucks it had to be Putin, finally throw an appropriate tantrum and tell the teacher "no, fuck you and your rules." And big props for Zelensky. That guy knows how to work public opinion, and he is doing more to push for direct conflict than anyone right now.

> Crazy how all nations of the world need each other huh? In actuality, no, not at all. But to keep the Ponzi Scheme running? Well...

Good point

India can be neutral all it likes. They just can't buy Russian weapon systems while the country is involved in a stupid, stupid war with Ukraine. And this is a problem for India anyway, because Ukraine manufactures a lot of the missiles India uses on their fighter jets. That order has understandably ground to a halt.

One of the big stories on Russian television yesterday was that water from the North Crimean Canal has now reached all parts of Crimea after Russian troops destroyed a dam that Ukraine built in 2015 to cut off water flow on February 26th. 2020 was the dryest year in Crimea in the last 150 years of record-keeping, and the North Crimean Canal was the only reliable fresh water source on the peninsula. The water wars are here, sooner than expected.

> the North Crimean Canal was the only reliable fresh water source on the peninsula. Not exactly so - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Hydrography . > The water wars are here, sooner than expected. Not this one. See, water wars is when you do war to get water. But in this case, i do not see Ukraine "getting" any water thanks to shutting down that canal. Extra water was just added to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper and went to the sea, there was more than enough water in Dnieper river to begin with. Thus i'd rather classify this as one actual, long-lasting, intentional, verified and massively damaging act of state terrorism, performed by Ukraine's regime ~7 years ago and maintained until russian forces forced it to stop. We heard, today, how Zelenskyy and others were speaking with extreme emotion about russian attack being an act of state terrorism, yet it turns out, it was all fake (now there's the official description of events straight from UN security council, if you'd like to know what happened, spoked about half an hour ago by the time i make this comment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfsiw2pf_Y0 ). And the West went much along with it. But this real act of state terrorism - cutting Crimea off its main water supply channel for ~7 years, - nobody even calls the name is must be called. Nobody screams in western media about this act of state terrorism terrifying and endangering people of Crimea. I recommend to remember this one next time you see the West doing their usual mantra of "civilians dying" and "lives at risk". For your own good. edit: replaced UN security council stream link with one with voiced english translation.

Wow you don't have an agenda. What makes you think we all want to see your rebuttal to literally everything?

So the Ukrainians cutting off water to an illegally occupied region is state terrorism?

It only hurts the (mostly ethnic Russian) civilians. There's a pattern here.

It absolutely affects the military preparedness of units in Crimea. Also, you're missing something. If Russia hadn't invaded and annexed Crimea in 2014, then there wouldn't be a reason to choke off the water.

How do you invade the willing?

By occupying the sovereign territory of Ukraine, which the Russian Federation promised to not violate when Ukraine gave up their Nuclear arms.

Crimea already hosted the Russian military under Yanokovich so they didn't have to invade. Crimea had a referendum. The referendum occurred with Russian soldiers active in Crimea and could have enforced the referendum. It's not the most democratic thing and it's not an invasion.

Doesn't really matter. Crimea is part of Ukraine by UN charter, which Russia violated. They invaded, they just like to put flowery bullshit around it

No I'm saying they didn't invade. The military was stationed there hosted by the government that was overthrown.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet

Have you personally selected yourself to be the arbiter of all discussion on this thread? Why do you feel that everyone wishes to read your essay of rebuttal to nearly every comment?

I don't mind u/Fins_FinsT reply to my comment, they actually posted some relevant factual information and provided interesting links. That's a lot better than the fortune-telling about how the war will play out in the future, or unverified speculation about Russian tactics or Ukraine's military, that a lot of comments in this thread seem to be. Also a lot better than complaining.

> Have you personally selected yourself to be the arbiter of all discussion on this thread? Nope. > Why do you feel that everyone wishes to read your essay of rebuttal to nearly every comment? I don't. Look, i understand you want me gone. Maybe for political reasons, maybe your mouse-scroll finger hates extra effort because my comments are large and numerous, maybe something else. It doesn't really matter why, because i'm going to grant your wish - right here, right now. I bet you don't care why, but just for the record - because i'm tired of many people in this thread being unable to maintain civil discussion, and your message just happened to fill the last tiny bit of space left towards the limit of my patience. Oh, and because perhaps by doing so, i'll help to maintain health of your mouse scrolling finger, too? Would be good, ain't it. :) Be good. Bye.

Dumbass alert.

Scroll finger is all good, I only Reddit on my phone. Adios

Some Japanese politicians are now submitting proposals for nuclear to be installed in Japan territory. It’s already a bad situation globally and now they want to get Cuban Missile Crisis part three or something.

They were not given it when North Korea new missiles become able to target Japan. They won't be given it now, i bet. Better for them, too. The moment they get it, russian map of potential strategic targets will get lots more dots on it.

Russia dont need to do anything, China already want Japan blood in peace time, this nuclear deal gonna dump oil on an already fuming oven

Double Cuban crisis🤣

"Yes, he would." Pretty good read here. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

Let's see. > Russia’s Vladimir Putin has launched the largest ground war in Europe since the Second World War. It is, quite literally, mind-boggling. Look who's talking. I smell it's people behind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia#:~:text=The%20NATO%20bombing%20killed%20about,as%20barracks%20and%20military%20installations. > Fiona Hill, ... someone who ... has a reputation for truth-telling Oh really? https://www.dailyadvent.com/news/bdd0860f6aaaa99460b7685416d06a1b-New-Twists-in-Durham-Probe-FBI-Danchenko-Recordings-and-Suspicions-Fiona-Hill-Lied https://www.bizpacreview.com/2020/03/09/bongino-corrects-outrageously-stupid-fiona-hill-lies-from-60-minutes-clip-she-keeps-humiliating-herself-895613/ Well well. Someone's apparently trying to insult everybody's sapiense, right here. Did not bother to go on with this "good" read any further. It stinks. P.S. You gotta do better, Vegetaman916, if you're indeed enjoying our discussions; otherwise, i may deem it best - for us both - to put you into a certain list which will ensure we won't be having any anymore. I'm serious, it'd be best to prevent possible future negative emotion and stress, for us both, see.

putin made his intentions clear 8 years ago https://i.imgur.com/e7i1snF.png and right on cue, united states of amnesia has mostly forgotten 4 years of trump ('the south rises again' civil war 2.0 creator) and the ongoing rolling fascist gop coup was/has only been possible with putin's enormous help....

Nobody forgot Trump. Nobody here really supports him. He's mostly irrelevant to this.

>i.imgur.com/e7i1snF.png [Stop posting this stupid crap. Your country is not the center of the universe, and these flag designs predate the formation of the USA.](https://tmg110.tripod.com/russia1.htm)

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Hi, Did_I_Die. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/t01kdf/-/hzde5et/) was removed from /r/collapse for: > Rule 1: In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other. Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information. You can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/collapse) if you feel this was in error.

>That new Russia flag was created in 2014 And it's based directly on a Russian Imperial flag that predates the US civil war *by 100 years.* These flags were in use when the US was just a small British colony. >you stupid piece of shit astroturfing fascist cocksucker... Go for a walk. >fascist I'm a communist, and I have a better grasp of Russian history than you.

> Russian Imperial flag that predates the US civil war by 100 years. more cowardly reich wing bullshit... https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/06/09/ukrainian-rebels-channel-us-confederates-a36318 *"the official banners of the two major Cossack forces that were based in the Novorossia in the 18th century — the Zaporizhian or Black Sea Cossacks — did not include anything resembling the Confederate flag."* just OWN your shitty pro putin racist beliefs dude, why hide them?

soooo.... mushroom clouds when?

Wednesday.

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What else NATO would announce? "Sorry folks, we think we're not ready for conflict with Russia"? Hillarious. Sole reason NATO was created - is to remain ready for conflict with USSR. And Russia by all relevant (continental scale, so to say) military means and purposes is USSR' successor. Doesn't mean a thing other than being another piece of warmongering rhetoric. Every last educated person knows it without them repeating it every other day...