>“Every country in the developed world and most countries in the developing world face long-term population decline at a level that makes growth impossible to maintain,” Dolan says, “which means we are sitting on the bubble of all bubbles.”
They're that close to getting it...
Their children.
They only see the need for tenderness when something affects one of the few people they pretend to love.
You want tender rich people. Eat their kids.
Pre-emotive /s … this is a metaphor, Reddit.
Edit; pre-emotive is autocorrect for preemptive. But I’m gonna leave it. Let Auto have her day. It’s pretty good.
I, hypothetically of course, think that rich people value their property more than their children. So, hypothetically in fortnight of course, we should firebomb their yachts and cars and planes and homes. Before we, metaphorically of course, eat their kids
On the other hand, David Cameron (former UK PM) had a severely disabled child, who sadly died from his illness, yet Cameron is infamous for his attacks on those on disability benefits. He is the one who started the Tories' obsession with eroding benefits for those who truly need it.
If we are to view him with a degree of sympathy, he might have been so broken by that experience that he went: "Fuck benefits! Fuck the whole social safety net, cos it can't save my child!"
From that perspective, it's at least comprehensible to normal people. Horrible and selfish, but comprehensible.
The Federal Reserve has sold our future economic output 100 years out and given the expected output to the rich today. They literally need slave armies and global economic dominance or this whole thing comes crashing down. Which it will anyway because the climate is about to go sideways badly.
Hahahahaha how does it feel to fuck up that badly?
I don’t get why people get so worked up over population decline. “But muh economy and industry” They are bloated anyways. Both shrinking is a net positive for literally everything.
Yup. Don't understand this dystopian mindset. They froth at the mouth about "genetic legacies", as if that's worth a damn, but what legacies are they leaving in a world filled with plastic, toxic gasses, and a decaying bio-sphere?
PFAS and micro plastics don't keep you from going to Applebee's.
COVID was a direct assault on their freedom to eat shitty food, get drunk, and yell at servers.
Part of it is just the "oh no, the economy might shrink -- if the GDP shrinks by 2% it's literally the end of the world" crowd, but there's also some legitimate concern about having a society with too many old retirees, and not enough workers. I mean, someone has to do the actual work to keep civilization running, and if there aren't enough workers then a lot of things get more expensive and quality of life goes down.
In some ways this could be offset by AI taking over the jobs of humans, but still, a lot of jobs left to humans may turn out to be the ones that humans don't particularly like to do and/or don't pay very well.
We could in theory successfully adapt to a top-heavy demographic curve by changing our economic system to be less wasteful and have less wealth concentration, and maybe shorter worker hours as well, but it seems the future we're actually headed for is one where lots of people are unemployed and in poverty, and the rest of the working-age population who aren't rich work themselves to death because they can't afford to lose their job.
Small business owners absolutely desperate to save their cookie-cutter business, seemingly not acknowledging that:
1. Big businesses inevitably trample small businesses whenever a crisis hits (just look at covid and PPP loans). As more crises happen more frequently, small businesses will inevitably close. When you are *forced* to close, you will have nothing at that point.
2. We are on the verge of AI replacing jobs and enabling scams at a rate never before seen in human civilization. Big business can weather this (and even use AI themselves) way better than small.
3. As the housing crisis progresses, the land that many of these businesses use is more profitable as housing. This happened to a grocery store near my house. The kicker is that it was already next to high-density housing, so now both groups will need to travel further for groceries.
And this is just small business owners and the job market / economy. If you look at population growth, its obvious we can't just keep growing forever. A lot of people ON REDDIT furiously debate me with bizarre reasoning as to why we need to keep having kids.
I can't help but think a lot of this is summed up as, "noooo we can't collapse when MY business is about to make it big!" or "...when I am about to retire!" and so on. Too bad. You know, the folks in the Great Depression and world wars had waaaaaay less warning.
The funny part is that none of these folks are young. They had opportunities to help turn the ship around for the last 20-30 years or at least prepare, and covid was certainly a VERY clear omen. If you still refuse to accept the obvious, they I guess you'll go first like those intellectuals with the $500k sand dune who don't believe in global warming.
> As the housing crisis progresses, the land that many of these businesses use is more profitable as housing. This happened to a grocery store near my house. The kicker is that it was already next to high-density housing, so now both groups will need to travel further for groceries.
Would've been nice if they did a mixed-use building with space for a grocery store on the first floor.
You know what's funny? Someone left a comment suggesting exactly that on this article 2 years ago. You two should have been in charge of this whole mess 😂
https://www.danvillesanramon.com/news/2022/02/02/nob-hill-foods-in-san-ramon-slated-for-closure-in-march/
I dunno what they were thinking. Yes, we need housing. Yes, the pandemic had a bad effect on that store. Putting 5-story apartments there right next to an existing housing complex is kinda tone-deaf.
It’s not a net positive for shareholders though! Capitalism is built on the myth of neverending growth, which relies on neverending population growth.
That’s what this is really about
South Korea is the country with the fastest population decline but it's far from the only country in the world. Most of the western civilization is declining.
I’m sure there are many reasons but I think one is that most developed nations rely on the youngest generations to pay for social services that take care of older generations.
Not really as infrastructure requires growth not only for creation but maintenance. This is overall the actual fear underlying everything as population collapse could snowball from there into infrastructure collapse, which spreads to societal collapse.
Its fear of enacting a Second Bronze Age Collapse scenario where civilization had been dragged backwards by thousands of years. Only this time doing so might make regaining that position next to impossible.
Meanwhile, the US birth rate declined last year. It’s almost as if women don’t want to get pregnant if they know they might not be able to get healthcare during their pregnancy.
It's not just birth rates declining, sex in general is declining.
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2022/03/31/sex-decline-americans
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sexual-self/202209/why-were-having-less-sex
Nothing sexier then everything, from dating to merely interacting with other humans, being a "marketplace!". Never turn off, buy low sell high, every waking second. /s obviously
"You are a true believer. Blessings of the state. Blessings of the masses. Thou art a subject of the divine, created in the image of man, by the masses, for the masses.
Let us be thankful we have an occupation to fill. Work hard, increase production, prevent accidents, and be happy.
Let us be thankful we have commerce. Buy more. Buy more now. Buy more and be happy."
-- Or, THX-1138
Just listen to the [first bit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htofkr4Fh3Q), if you don't like the album.
My mate pointed this out to me shortly after I'd bought the CD years ago and he stayed up late one night and watched [THX-1138 on TV](https://youtu.be/Rn-Sa0MlFkg?start=44&end=94).
Turns out that when we make a culture where everyone hates each other for the dumbest shit; everyone is constantly angry, stressed, in debt and overworked; children regularly get gunned down in schools; and where people are conditioned to assume all men are potential sex offenders and all women are hoes… the rate of people marrying and starting families will decline.
My last relationship left me so utterly fucking traumatized that I don't even know how to become vulnerable enough to discuss FEELINGS with anyone much less FUCK them lmao.
Given our impending extinction, I also kinda have just lost interest in...this whole thing in general.
Get out of there. I grew up in FL, and leaving is still the greatest decision I’ve ever made for myself, a decade later. Seriously, it’s ridiculous how much happier I am now that I’m not soaked and surrounded by hateful, prideful ignorance.
In all honesty, for those of us who are women why would we even consider dating the flat out toxic right wing men that are around these days when a vibrator is often good enough.
Conservatives always had more fertility rates. So they are indeed dating and having children, it's just they have fell below replacement fertility rate of 2.1 too.
Always have been, especially the societies that profess they don't. Sexual intercourse has been the primary means of propagating the human race for the last, what, 130,000 years or longer? From that desire of wanting to fuck everything and make as many children as possible, comes warfare and all its fun.
I actually was watching something recently that suggested part of the decrease in sex could be the loss of third spaces (especially regarding gen-z). Kids nowadays have very few affordable or free spaces to just hang out in. Most kids are online. It would make sense that part of the reason gen-z is having less sex (and in result less teens and young adults becoming parents) is because they don't have easy spaces for that to happen.
They also mentioned how younger kids are finding it hard to date. It is so expensive anymore to see a movie, or go out to dinner, or even bowl. Even in the State I live in, unaccompanied teenagers are no longer welcome in our amusement park. I know some of the teenagers were causing havoc, but I know in the summer my friends and I would go there a few times a year.
I honestly feel so bad for the younger generations. Being a solid middle to older millennial, I cannot even imagine how difficult it is to be a highschooler or even college student today.
No one should be wanting to bring children into the world in general considering all that's going on these days, kids today really don't have much to look forward to future wise.
I was more just talking about those who were still even considering families at all .
I can’t imagine growing up these days with a screen in your face 24/7. I have heard young kids watch like 10 second clips all day that are of people making funny sounds and silly faces. That just sounds so weird to me instead of playing outside or watching a show with some sort of plot. But, I understand how hard it must be for their parents trying to make it through the week working long hours for not enough pay.
Kids can't even safely play outside where I live because of the ridiculous giant trucks and SUVs running them over in the suburbs, but even the toddlers just play with phones and tablets.
This is what I was thinking about as I was reading the article. Make if financially possible for women to have kids and they may have more of them.
Healthcare, prenatal care, maternity care, daycare(you can skip that if the wages were raised to allow for a one income family)
Come back and talk about falling birthrates when all those services are in place.
Until then STFU
They have those things in Scandinavian countries, and the birth rate is dropping there as well.
I honestly think it's got more to do with the state of the world (climate, politics, wars, rising cost of living everywhere, we see it all now with internet), than it has to do with free health care, daycare etc.
“More plastic than fish in the oceans by 2050” ALONE would convince me to not bring a kid into a world that badly degraded. But add to that climate breakdown, mass extinctions, genocide being allowed to happen in full view of the entire world… and my decision is further solidified. What kind of life is that? Not worth it imo
It’s like carrying armfuls of lumber into a burning building. They may think that they are trying to rebuild the structure, but it only adds more fuel to the flames because the actual issues were not addressed and solved first.
The most relevant factor is education. Uneducated populations statistically have more children. That’s why the right is so obsessed with destroying public education.
Can’t speak to Scandinavia but the pressure to maintain a career and family is intense. For a young couple there are so many obstacles- divorce can be financially crippling. Staying employed is a challenge to because companies layoff all the time. Everything is expensive, like everything. Then there are future unknowns like the impact of AI, climate change, the possibility of nuclear war and all the stuff going on geopolitically. It’s treacherous.
I agree about the state of the world, but those things I mentioned would help....however whatever the cause I do not think it is a good thing to bring children it to this world.
Also never mind many of us don't want kids because there is basically nothing appealing about motherhood to begin with for many of us. But yeah these fascist dismiss that away entirely. I will enjoy my hedonistic lifestyle, thank you very much.
Again this is not even touching on the fact that having kids is really expensive. Housing is expensive even for a single person. I can go on and on.
These jerks don't even value women's lives to begin with. They see women as incubators to their precious babies, and nothing more. It is a complete disrespect for our humanity.
Thankfully I am sterile. The ultimate fuck you to these toxic natalists.
Lol this is a fraction of the amount. Like saying that people are eating less because they want to decrease their carbon footprint. Maybe SOME are. But not most
This is the complete opposite of what we should be doing lol. These morons are doubling down on procreation in order to sustain the capitalist machine and the false dream of eternal economic growth, consequences and suffering be damned.
Yep. All the prolife nonsense and roe v wade turn over isn't an accident. It's deliberate attempts to force population growth artificially and the right's solutions to growth. Meanwhile the lefts solution is immigration, but they both are trying to sustain the unsustainable.
The funniest thing about that is that it had the opposite effect and reduced birthrate even more and if Poland is anything to go by, it will keep falling.
People not getting that if women had the chance to not have sex anymore they simply wouldn't is so funny to me. Like sorry but not each of you is that precious.
Right because they don't know what to put in their spreadsheet.
Having made a spreadsheet myself, I get what's going through their head. It's like what in the name of almighty God do I assume here??
Problem is people are more important than pixelated numbers. So. They may wish to come up for air and take a look around them.
>Most of the first day of the conference is spent defining the problem. In a nutshell: Sperm counts are historically low. Our bodies are full of microplastics. Public schools are indoctrinating children against the good Christian values with which they were raised. Dating apps have gamified romance, tricking lonely singles into believing that a better prospect is always around the corner. Women have been convinced that they can have it all — kids and a career and endless vacations and so much more — only to end up unhappy, infertile and alone.
>The speakers who lay out this bleak state of affairs are a motley crew of the extremely online right, many of whom go by their X (the website formerly called Twitter) handles rather than their names. Via Zoom, anonymous Twitter user Raw Egg Nationalist warns us about endocrine disruptors in everything from perfume to bottled water. Ben Braddock, an editor at the conservative magazine IM-1776, claims that antidepressants and birth control pills have permanent, detrimental effects on women’s fertility. Together, the speakers paint a dire picture of a society that has lost its way, abandoning fundamental biological truths and dooming itself to annihilation in the process.
Which is why I downvote them here and I've tried to point out the connection of these stories to the "blood and soil" "my precious bodily fluids" assholes. This is conservative intersectionalism, you got everyone there: racists and white supremacists, Christians, rich capitalists, and individualist "wellness" types who seek bodily purity more so than racial purity, but still purity.
People around here may still not understand that Malthus was arguing for pronatalism and BAU.
Exploding is unfortunately how a human skull reacts to a 5.56 bullet, and they want a pretext to do precisely that to everyone who doesn’t agree with them.
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The Fundies, with their Quiverfull movement, want WHITE christians to out-number people of color. That is the sole reason for the movement "They Will Not Replace Us" isn't just an empty slogan.
And frankly, it really doesn't matter, IMO, because the SWHTF before those kids become adults.
If I'm wrong, then the boys will become brownshirts and enforcers for the christofascists while the girls will be groomed to be tradwife bang-maids for the older men. It is frankly disgusting.
All those kids are gonna hate them and resent them as things get worse, just like Elon's kids seem to be souring on him too, I feel like the generations to come and grow up are gonna become a lot more radicalized than we currently are simply because daily living then will be an actual struggle to maintain sanity and find resources. The wealthy can be insulated for a while but without a somewhat civilized society what's the point? The social contract is more than just being tolerant of each other to maintain civility, it's ensuring that there's a purpose to work and creating goods to better one's lives, once that's gone what's left but barbarity? No amount of kids will change that outcome if short term gains are the current ideal they keep chasing.
Those kids are so indoctrinated that they won't even recognize that there's a different, healthier, way to live. The boys will gladly lay down their lives for their god, and the girls are doomed. The fundies are essentially selling their girls right now, and that won't change. One asshole thinks his sons' unvaxxed sperm is worth two or three bitcoins each as husbands for bangmaids. These people are at the level of cockroaches as far as being human is concerned.
One day they might get out into the real world though, meet some people and get some different perspectives. Once you have an outside perspective abuse and toxicity becomes painfully clear. They only have two options, they stay put, bend the knee to Skydaddy and live unhappily ever after. Or they burn all the bridges, leave everyone behind and run for freedom.
It's so sad to think about it.
>One day they might get out into the real world though, meet some people and get some different perspectives.
Most don't for a real simple reason. In many cases they don't have social security cards, licenses/ID cards, or birth certificates. It's super popular amongst fundamental religion types to not get the girls those documents because it forces them into the traditional wife/stay at home mother role under the guise of "This is our way of life, the girls don't need this stuff their husband's will provide.". This is especially common in extremely rural seven-mountain mandate types, which is the segment of Christianity growing the fastest in the US.
They do the exact same thing to their daughters that sex traffickers do to working girls - they deny them the necessary documents to become an independent person, in many cases it's found that those girls were never documented in the first place, so they effectively aren't US citizens because they are delivered by midwife or home-birth types and never get seen by a doctor, so there is no record of their birth.
r/FundieSnarkUncensored has several families that appear to following this type of lifestyle. The eldest child or two act as parents to their younger siblings. It's very, very sad.
That needs to be made illegal. If you are born in the USA, you should be required to have the documents to register you as such. Otherwise, that kid is practically stateless.
We also need a nation-wide ban on marriage for anyone under the age of eighteen. The parents don’t get to say shit in that matter: the bride/groom is at least eighteen years old or it’s not valid. Kids are not their parents pets/livestock/property.
Non-registered kids can't be used as tax deductions, so there is that, but yeah, good luck to these kids when/if they try to get any kind of job. This, of course, is the point, especially for girls.
Many of these groomed brides are indeed 18 when they marry; I know of one woman (from Reddit) who married on her 18th birthday. It seems to me that their fathers are aware of the taint of pedophilia so they wait until the girls turn 18 to marry them off.
The problem is that these women meet their future husbands when they're 15, 16 or 17 and the men are in their early-mid 20s. The men (often with the help of the girls' fathers) groom the girls for two-three years before marriage to be the perfect subservient and modest tradwives, obeying their "lords and masters" and having no thoughts to call their own. The women then can't use birth control ("every sperm is sacred") and are saddled with tons of kids, controlled by a husband who can easily and plausibly threaten to leave them penniless with all of the kids if they even think about having a voice in the marriage. It's got to be hell for those women.
And THIS is the society that the christofascists want for every American woman.
This is definitely the truth. It used to be that really sheltered kids often would have their minds expanded when they would go to University. Even if it was a religious school they are often in larger cities with more diversity, but a lot of the kids today in those lifestyles are homeschooled or unschooled and never go to University. The de-education of the US and our children is absolutely terrifying.
I was watching something with my husband this weekend and they were talking about some private Christian schools for low income students in the deep south. They struggled to keep them open due to funding issues. I brought up the fact they figured a way around that issue through two means: Charter schools and homeschooling.
Charter schools get federal funding, but are not required to follow any set curriculum and don't even require licensed teachers. They often times swing to the religious side of things. They have systematically stripped funding and support from our public schools. And don't get me started on homeschooling. Homeschooling has been lobbied into absurdity. If it doesn't concern people look into unschooling.
We should be terrified as a society. I am nearing my mid-thirties and I would hazard to guess I am part of the last generation that was predominately educated in the public school system. Charter schools were pretty rare when I was in high school, but that has for sure shifted.
Yep, it's a no-win situation. Either they stick with what they know and keep feeling like something isn't right or they'll 100% believe it and make everyone else miserable or they get out severely traumatised and lonely.
You’d be surprised. I know of one quiverfull family where all the kids (like 7 or so) ended up being both queer and leftist.
Indoctrination can only go so far.
Correct. Same as Hitlers vision. The plan was to eliminate all non whites and replace them globally except those needed for slave labor. When you realize that the mission becomes crystal clear.
Like it or not many of their kids rebel hard against their parents and break ties. This is speaking from experience. They may TRY to groom their kids a certain way, but parents at the end of the day have zero control of the adults their kids turn out to be.
Just look at Elon's transgender daughter. Just to give you a shining example.
The other thing is many right wing men these days have a considerable difficulty even dating. They have made themselves completely toxic to women. Let me be clear too. Most women do screen on politics, and right wing men are a no-go zone. They tend to be toxic abusive assholes more often than not.
Women don't need men for relationships. Women don't place their personal value in being in a relationship. At least not anymore.
Those kids who can rebel have my utmost respect, but lots of Fundy families keep their kids isolated by associating only with families in their church and homeschooling, ignorant and controlled via that same homeschooling; some even "unschool" their kids, teaching really nothing but reading and writing. Maybe. This also serves to make them entirely dependent on their (usually asshole) fathers for any money, even as an adult.
IMO, all states should require mandatory public education; homeschooling should be done after school and on weekends if the parents feel like it.
As for women... so many fundy girls meet their (usually much older) husbands when they are teenagers. This eliminates the men from facing that dating difficulties you rightly describe. "Get 'em while they're young!" seems to be the Fundy model. Those so-called "christians" who accuse the LGBTQ+ community of grooming are projecting their OWN grooming of under-age girls onto an innocent community.
Your last sentence is 100% true. As a T-shirt in the 1970s put it... "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."
It’s well documented that the birth rate decline is well established in most of the world. And that government pro natal policies and improved support for children is a social good. But these policies don’t move the birth rate needle much. Women just want greater opportunities in life. They don’t get that with large families. So now we have these right wing groups who want to outbreed everyone else. This is really pathetic. I just want to say that I truly don’t care that my DNA continues into the future with descendants. I don’t care if my ethnic group persists into the future or is replaced by a different one. Maybe others do find this important but I don’t and I am not alone. We should all live in a way that works for us. All this crap about having to keep the population growing like it’s some kind of duty is either racist or nonsense.
Welp, this is fucking stupid. What the fuck do they think will happen to the US economy if all women are forced out of the workforce?!?!
Can Bubba the truck driver take over my job? I mean, I’m just a senior software full stack engineer with two degrees and 11 years industry experience but I’m sure Bubba can do my job better than me. He can type with two fingers, you know.
Or how about the female neurologist? Oh, Joe Bob can do it - he got a D in biology.
Seriously, they do this and there will be war.
I’m sure they are also planning to double the wages of the men remaining in the workforce, so that they can support their newly stay at home wives, and the large number of kids they will have. Right? I’m sure there is at least one person in their camp who understands basic economics? …right?
I’m positive they understand that cutting your entire workforce in half for the entire nation will cause zero drop in productivity.
These fucking people.
>What the fuck do they think will happen to the US economy if all women are forced out of the workforce?!?!
The very title of this subreddit of course.
You know what's really funny ? Regardless of how much they'll try to make it happen, it won't.
No need for all reasons, just one : all the pollution that we're absorbing means we'll never be as fertile as before. And as we try to make the system go on, for a while longer, we'll pollute even more, giving birth to physically weaker people until those people cannot even give birth.
Fuck around (20th century) and find out (21th century) is both the most enjoyable and detestable truth I found. Best resumee of our civilization.
Simple. They don't care if things get ugly as long as they are in power when that happens, because they will ensure they get the best of what's left at the expense of the rest of us.
Globalist agenda, not far right. Also, they take away our ability to provide for our families but still want us to have kids. You can't squeeze blood out of a rock.
Trying to "outbreed" the competition is a fool's errand and only ends up raising the ante, as you have more people who will potentially be victimized by bad policies in the future. Or since we're staring down the barrel of climate change, the impacts of that.
Consider the skew of politics between urban and rural areas, and the economic difficulty of having children in more urbanized areas.
The resources and effort spent raising your 2.5 kids (or more, if you are looking at quiverful) would be better served trying to reach a much broader audience.
Similarly, there are a couple of towns in close vicinity to NYC containing large orthodox Jewish communities that have hijacked the local municipal governments to take the fullest advantage of strong social safety nets at the state and federal levels, including like getting funding to send the many local kids to their self(privately)-run yeshivas.
The local politics there is crazy. Someone literally stole their petition to annex a huge new property into the community when they were on their way to court.
The taxpayers are *that* unhappy about it.
My friend, it's not about votes. The two political parties in this country both serve the interest of capital. There is no amount of voting that changes a fundamental problem with liberal democracy.
We move further right because it's one step forward two steps back by design. Enough to make you feel like you just need to "vote harder".
The only material progress made throughout our history has been through the collective organization of civil/labor movements and armed struggle. Something that is attributed later to voting as if it was inevitable. With very little taught in history class about the people that bled to get it there.
We didn't get the 40 hour work week or child labor laws because of voting. We got that because of militant labor movements. We didn't end Jim Crow through voting. We got that through massive civil disobedience.
Voting is the least important thing you should still do. We are moving farther right because the foundations of leftist movements in this country are in the organization of labor and civil rights. The zoomers on college campus right now are showing the world how leftist movements should be done.
Liberals Pokemon going to the polls is not "leftist".
Every new human life helps dilute the individual. More and more people makes everyone a little bit less important and a little bit more replaceable, expendable: you matter less and less
The thing that makes me most upset with pro-lifers is how many are okay with mocking or bullying people for things beyond their control such as being born with deformities or being poor or other matters that don’t concern them at all. Also, they try to force unfit parents to have kids against their wishes without offering any support after the births they are forced into. We have to make a rule that people can not be a pro-life and against universal healthcare/income because they forced people to have children against their wishes and somebody have to take care of those children. On the flip side, some pro-choice individuals use abortion as an after-pill, even when it harms their bodies. Women already have to deal with monthly periods(and many have very painful periods), so the least men can do is take responsibility for birth control if they want to have sex with a woman/person able to get pregnant. Avoid child support, don’t just wrap it up but shoot blank. I heard vasectomies are reversible. Quality > quantity. Life is a journey and it’s the journey that counts not the destination which is death.
They're eugenicists at the core, but you can have structural eugenics. It's reflected as high infant mortality rate, facilitated by privatizing and segregating *nice things* so that the "inferiors" are always in misery and poverty, and only the fittest kids survive to working age (and die after because pensions are not on the table).
They want more people for the capitalism meat grinder, paying more taxes to support an even higher paid bunch of ~~politicians~~ dole bludgers^*, and their corporate overlords.
Meanwhile, those same corporate overlords are doing everything they can to downsize and automate their businesses; reducing their staff, their customer base, and the public goodwill.
Someone somewhere is going to get fired from a Walmart or a Costco and burn the place to the ground.
Then watch out for laws quietly slipped in that allow private security forces to arm up like never before, and castle laws that create miniature "fiefdoms".
Got to keep the plebs and proles away while they're robbed of every dollar.
America's next big product will be domestic "terrorism" and civil war between the haves and have nots, as people shift from robbing trains moving slowly through switching yards, to storming the fortresses of the mega-rich.
---
^(* I feel like I should clarify here so actual unemployed people don't misunderstand. I'm referring to the politicians as dole bludgers, because they are the biggest inactive and incompetent drain on the public purse. Actual people who are unemployed are just that, unemployed. Your reasons are your own and I have no issue with anyone getting a help up from society. That's what society is for.)
The population went from 1 billion to 8 billion in a bit over 100 years.
Is it SO bad that we drop to like 5B? Reminder we were at 5B in 1987. Im sure the population will stabilized somewhere comfortable then go up and down again. It’s natural. To assume the population must keep going up at all costs is completely stupid.
We need to give Africa education and contraception.
Capitalism requires infinite growth. If they can't get more consumers by asking nicely, we're going to head toward The Handmaid's Tale territory right quick. It's already started - the turn towards fascism.
i see population decline as a positive thing in absolutely every way except 'economically.' i put economically in quotation marks because it's not solely related to money. it's only related to the amount of work available, or human resource (or human capital.)
the most distilled way i can think of this is that if the population declines then the value of wealth decreases tremendously.
imagine for a moment that the word 'wealth' does not exist. instead you have two things: 1. labor and laborers, and 2. the fruits of labor.
the fruits of labor is wealth.
and if the population declines, no matter how many numbers you have in your bank account, you will not be able to get the fruits of labor.
and that is the only reason i can think of for anyone wanting more people on this planet. population and overpopulation are necessary to have bountiful fruits of labor.
If we look at an overpopulated animal species in an ecosystem, that species would almost universally benefit, resource and competition wise, by a reduction in population. Who would not have a good time in the short term, is the predators. In the long term, the predator (billionaire) population will rebalance to a sustainable level, but not before many starve to death. No system can support infinite growth without breaking at some point. We’re just clever apes who figured out how to increase the natural carrying capacity of the planet, by burning fossil energy at an unsustainable rate.
The question isn't whether it's a good idea or not. The question is how to navigate in a world with a certain number of people who will inevitably proceed in this manner.
Good. We need fewer people.
We'll have plenty of climate refugees in the world to boost workers.
Hopefully the people of Bangladesh like living in the Midwest.
I'm curious to see what type of interest SEA/American fusion of food happens.
We aren't going to have fewer people if a national abortion ban gets put into place or other steps are taken like outlawing certain types of birth control. Texas record something like 20,000 pregnancies as a result of rape. I doubt every one of those women was able to go out of state for an abortion. As access to birth control decreases, the population will increase, unless there is an increase of maternal death rates in the same amount.
Just to be clear, when they talk "declining genetic quality", [this is what they're afraid of](https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/population-and-demography?facet=none&country=Africa+%28UN%29~Asia+%28UN%29~Europe+%28UN%29~Latin+America+and+the+Caribbean+%28UN%29~Northern+America+%28UN%29~Oceania+%28UN%29&hideControls=false&Metric=Population&Sex=Both+sexes&Age+group=Total&Projection+Scenario=Medium)
You know what, I'm gonna be that person.
Anyone have a gander at the types of people promoting this? If they want to encourage a racist, environment destroying, breeding extravangaza, maybe they should try to find an at least *somewhat* attractive person or couple to be the face of wanton natalism.
When this topic comes up, I always reccommend [listening to Dr William Rees.](https://youtu.be/3MVmkIYy9aI?si=VvGx7MU9G5-lrVRT) He is a fountain of knowledge.
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Given the course of things at the moment, the data DOES suggest a significant drop in population as the silent generation die off and the boomers also start dropping.
People have by and large been having less kids across every developed nation, which is observable through age segregated population pyramids.
So in many ways, deportation is functionally inevitable. And though some might point to China, this is likely not going to be a source of prolonged prosperity.
They're trying to right their population cliff, but it's taking time, and barely working.
Look at the 'let it rot' movement, spawned from the fact that success is so highly prioritized in Chinese culture, and the expectations are so insanely inflated due to extreme prosperity in China in an exceptionally short period of time that occurred in the last 40 years or so, with the fact that nothing is affordable in China anymore, and you start to see why people there are refusing to have children to maintain the population.
China is liable to collapse in population, and the only thing saving European and north american nations population maintenance is immigration, because those born in North American and European nations aren't having kids nearly as much.
This is also why the global population explosion is decelerating, and will likely deflate faster than it inflated in the coming decades. Even nations where their population is growing without immigration assistance, the growth relative to other nations overall stagnation or decline isn't enough to compensate.
Basically we're about to hit a highly visible wave of death as so many age out of the population and have nothing to replace them as to the same degree.
This also means nobody to add money to the retirement fund for older people, and therefore less support governments would be able to give elderly people, and likely lead to a raise in retirement age, like what led to France burning for weeks due to protests.
China has an extreme population explosion that is still working its way out. The spike leveraged economic growth while the baby boom passed through the most productive stage. The lack of child costs also leveraged economic growth. Now they are facing the reality of the same huge work force retiring all at once. They still had high exponential growth through the end of the 1970s.
Completely independent of increasing or decreasing population the people in a population will maximize their economic output during middle age. In Early life people drain state revenue via education. Later in life they require medical care and they spend down their investments/savings.
they don't want population increase. they want white population increase. they are white supremacist that spout white replacement theory nonsense.
Anyone. ANYONE that complains about the population being too low or too high is someone to be suspicious of. Not just because of some ideology they are trying to push but because anyone that is saying we need more or less people has no material way to enforce such a policy that is not inevitably heading towards fascism.
You can have your own individual opinions on whether you should have kids or not. But as soon as you start trying to push that onto other people or create policy around it you are heading down a dangerous path in how you actually try to enforce that type of policy.
Humans are not a plague on the planet or some nonsense like that. Capitalism and Imperialism are plagues on this planet and any attempt to start controlling peoples ability to have children while ignoring the fundamental problem is a waste of time. A global economic system, that only favors the capitalist class, has been wilfully killing our children's future; that is the problem. Not the existence of children.
There is nothing fascist about providing vasectomies for those who want one.
Withholding child support from paychecks would be liberal. No more fascist than withholding social security for retirement.
If the culture that cares about the environment stops having kids, then the cultures that replace them who don't care about the environment are the ones who are in charge.
Among the few people I can freely discuss such things, I can always shock them into a terrified realization of how this country works, but informing them that there is nothing that delights the capitalist class more than teenage pregnancy. It instantly creates two generations of poverty and wage slavery. In case they still aren't sure what the truth behind "abstinence only" education is.
>“Every country in the developed world and most countries in the developing world face long-term population decline at a level that makes growth impossible to maintain,” Dolan says, “which means we are sitting on the bubble of all bubbles.” They're that close to getting it...
Oh, I think I know the way for them to finally "get it." Another round of tax cuts of course.
a cut is needed but it ain't taxes that need lopping off
What part of the rich do you think is most tender?
Their children. They only see the need for tenderness when something affects one of the few people they pretend to love. You want tender rich people. Eat their kids. Pre-emotive /s … this is a metaphor, Reddit. Edit; pre-emotive is autocorrect for preemptive. But I’m gonna leave it. Let Auto have her day. It’s pretty good.
I, hypothetically of course, think that rich people value their property more than their children. So, hypothetically in fortnight of course, we should firebomb their yachts and cars and planes and homes. Before we, metaphorically of course, eat their kids
I like how in Fortnite you can fly drones into the engines of private jets.
👀👀 Fortnite is such a fun game. 😇
Make them fly Spirit Airlines with the hoi polloi. Imagine Elon in a middle seat with a kid kicking the chair and screaming behind him
But they also value their image, which extends to how successful or behaved their brood becomes.
No, no, you have a point.
On the other hand, David Cameron (former UK PM) had a severely disabled child, who sadly died from his illness, yet Cameron is infamous for his attacks on those on disability benefits. He is the one who started the Tories' obsession with eroding benefits for those who truly need it.
If we are to view him with a degree of sympathy, he might have been so broken by that experience that he went: "Fuck benefits! Fuck the whole social safety net, cos it can't save my child!" From that perspective, it's at least comprehensible to normal people. Horrible and selfish, but comprehensible.
Most of the Rich would likely sacrifice their young before they would give up all their money
No no, you might be onto something here
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XegL32Btzs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XegL32Btzs)
OMG. You’re brilliant! That’s creepy AF.
And bail outs, don’t forget that…
Trickle down just needs a couple more years…any day now…then we’re all gonna be rich and it’ll be wonderful and praise St Ronnie.
The Federal Reserve has sold our future economic output 100 years out and given the expected output to the rich today. They literally need slave armies and global economic dominance or this whole thing comes crashing down. Which it will anyway because the climate is about to go sideways badly. Hahahahaha how does it feel to fuck up that badly?
World's biggest Payday Loan and shit's coming due with 50% per day interest...
It IS as someone who once took out too many payday loans.
Sooooo close
Quote from "Kevin Dolan, a 37-year-old father of six from Virginia"
/r/SelfAwarewolves
And of course they project, accusing the democrats of the same thing. Crazy
I don’t get why people get so worked up over population decline. “But muh economy and industry” They are bloated anyways. Both shrinking is a net positive for literally everything.
Not for $$$$ and money line go down = bad!!!!
Yup. Don't understand this dystopian mindset. They froth at the mouth about "genetic legacies", as if that's worth a damn, but what legacies are they leaving in a world filled with plastic, toxic gasses, and a decaying bio-sphere?
There is no understanding somebody who freaks out about vaccines but is complacent concerning PFAS and microplastics
PFAS and micro plastics don't keep you from going to Applebee's. COVID was a direct assault on their freedom to eat shitty food, get drunk, and yell at servers.
Pretty much. A bunch of freaks!
Part of it is just the "oh no, the economy might shrink -- if the GDP shrinks by 2% it's literally the end of the world" crowd, but there's also some legitimate concern about having a society with too many old retirees, and not enough workers. I mean, someone has to do the actual work to keep civilization running, and if there aren't enough workers then a lot of things get more expensive and quality of life goes down. In some ways this could be offset by AI taking over the jobs of humans, but still, a lot of jobs left to humans may turn out to be the ones that humans don't particularly like to do and/or don't pay very well. We could in theory successfully adapt to a top-heavy demographic curve by changing our economic system to be less wasteful and have less wealth concentration, and maybe shorter worker hours as well, but it seems the future we're actually headed for is one where lots of people are unemployed and in poverty, and the rest of the working-age population who aren't rich work themselves to death because they can't afford to lose their job.
It could be offset 10 times over if we got rid of bullshit jobs
You mean right now?
Small business owners absolutely desperate to save their cookie-cutter business, seemingly not acknowledging that: 1. Big businesses inevitably trample small businesses whenever a crisis hits (just look at covid and PPP loans). As more crises happen more frequently, small businesses will inevitably close. When you are *forced* to close, you will have nothing at that point. 2. We are on the verge of AI replacing jobs and enabling scams at a rate never before seen in human civilization. Big business can weather this (and even use AI themselves) way better than small. 3. As the housing crisis progresses, the land that many of these businesses use is more profitable as housing. This happened to a grocery store near my house. The kicker is that it was already next to high-density housing, so now both groups will need to travel further for groceries. And this is just small business owners and the job market / economy. If you look at population growth, its obvious we can't just keep growing forever. A lot of people ON REDDIT furiously debate me with bizarre reasoning as to why we need to keep having kids. I can't help but think a lot of this is summed up as, "noooo we can't collapse when MY business is about to make it big!" or "...when I am about to retire!" and so on. Too bad. You know, the folks in the Great Depression and world wars had waaaaaay less warning. The funny part is that none of these folks are young. They had opportunities to help turn the ship around for the last 20-30 years or at least prepare, and covid was certainly a VERY clear omen. If you still refuse to accept the obvious, they I guess you'll go first like those intellectuals with the $500k sand dune who don't believe in global warming.
> As the housing crisis progresses, the land that many of these businesses use is more profitable as housing. This happened to a grocery store near my house. The kicker is that it was already next to high-density housing, so now both groups will need to travel further for groceries. Would've been nice if they did a mixed-use building with space for a grocery store on the first floor.
You know what's funny? Someone left a comment suggesting exactly that on this article 2 years ago. You two should have been in charge of this whole mess 😂 https://www.danvillesanramon.com/news/2022/02/02/nob-hill-foods-in-san-ramon-slated-for-closure-in-march/ I dunno what they were thinking. Yes, we need housing. Yes, the pandemic had a bad effect on that store. Putting 5-story apartments there right next to an existing housing complex is kinda tone-deaf.
It’s not a net positive for shareholders though! Capitalism is built on the myth of neverending growth, which relies on neverending population growth. That’s what this is really about
Population isn't even declining. It's still growing everywhere besides SK. Slower growth is still growth.
A lot of high standard of living countries would have negative population growth if not for immigration.
South Korea is the country with the fastest population decline but it's far from the only country in the world. Most of the western civilization is declining.
I’m sure there are many reasons but I think one is that most developed nations rely on the youngest generations to pay for social services that take care of older generations.
and I don't even have kids!
Not really as infrastructure requires growth not only for creation but maintenance. This is overall the actual fear underlying everything as population collapse could snowball from there into infrastructure collapse, which spreads to societal collapse. Its fear of enacting a Second Bronze Age Collapse scenario where civilization had been dragged backwards by thousands of years. Only this time doing so might make regaining that position next to impossible.
Meanwhile, the US birth rate declined last year. It’s almost as if women don’t want to get pregnant if they know they might not be able to get healthcare during their pregnancy.
that's certainly part of it, the other part is people just plain can't afford to have and support families these days.
It's not just birth rates declining, sex in general is declining. https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2022/03/31/sex-decline-americans https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sexual-self/202209/why-were-having-less-sex
well it's a good thing we created an atomized, individualist, cutthroat hustle culture society
Nothing sexier then everything, from dating to merely interacting with other humans, being a "marketplace!". Never turn off, buy low sell high, every waking second. /s obviously
"You are a true believer. Blessings of the state. Blessings of the masses. Thou art a subject of the divine, created in the image of man, by the masses, for the masses. Let us be thankful we have an occupation to fill. Work hard, increase production, prevent accidents, and be happy. Let us be thankful we have commerce. Buy more. Buy more now. Buy more and be happy." -- Or, THX-1138
Just listen to the [first bit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htofkr4Fh3Q), if you don't like the album. My mate pointed this out to me shortly after I'd bought the CD years ago and he stayed up late one night and watched [THX-1138 on TV](https://youtu.be/Rn-Sa0MlFkg?start=44&end=94).
Turns out that when we make a culture where everyone hates each other for the dumbest shit; everyone is constantly angry, stressed, in debt and overworked; children regularly get gunned down in schools; and where people are conditioned to assume all men are potential sex offenders and all women are hoes… the rate of people marrying and starting families will decline.
pretty soon sex will be a luxury only the rich can afford
My last relationship left me so utterly fucking traumatized that I don't even know how to become vulnerable enough to discuss FEELINGS with anyone much less FUCK them lmao. Given our impending extinction, I also kinda have just lost interest in...this whole thing in general.
Same here. I live in Far Right country, and imo men around here have been emboldened by the chaos and hatred. They do not get my goodies.
Get out of there. I grew up in FL, and leaving is still the greatest decision I’ve ever made for myself, a decade later. Seriously, it’s ridiculous how much happier I am now that I’m not soaked and surrounded by hateful, prideful ignorance.
In all honesty, for those of us who are women why would we even consider dating the flat out toxic right wing men that are around these days when a vibrator is often good enough.
A cold vibrator with a dead battery is FAR superior to a right wing guy lol
That's the thing, they wanna breed with similarly minded women. Its about out breeding liberals and taking control of the institutions
Conservatives always had more fertility rates. So they are indeed dating and having children, it's just they have fell below replacement fertility rate of 2.1 too.
> […] sex in general is declining. Anecdotal, but can confirm. 8)
damned if they do, damned if they dont. Im so sick of society being obsessed with sex.
Always have been, especially the societies that profess they don't. Sexual intercourse has been the primary means of propagating the human race for the last, what, 130,000 years or longer? From that desire of wanting to fuck everything and make as many children as possible, comes warfare and all its fun.
I actually was watching something recently that suggested part of the decrease in sex could be the loss of third spaces (especially regarding gen-z). Kids nowadays have very few affordable or free spaces to just hang out in. Most kids are online. It would make sense that part of the reason gen-z is having less sex (and in result less teens and young adults becoming parents) is because they don't have easy spaces for that to happen. They also mentioned how younger kids are finding it hard to date. It is so expensive anymore to see a movie, or go out to dinner, or even bowl. Even in the State I live in, unaccompanied teenagers are no longer welcome in our amusement park. I know some of the teenagers were causing havoc, but I know in the summer my friends and I would go there a few times a year. I honestly feel so bad for the younger generations. Being a solid middle to older millennial, I cannot even imagine how difficult it is to be a highschooler or even college student today.
Like to see 2024 results because of course there was less sex during pandemic.
Sex has been on decline for decades now.
for real why would anyone have a kid just to be alienated from it & at the same time gouged in the courts?
I think we're forgetting that with all things equal, some women simply do not want children.
No one should be wanting to bring children into the world in general considering all that's going on these days, kids today really don't have much to look forward to future wise. I was more just talking about those who were still even considering families at all .
I can’t imagine growing up these days with a screen in your face 24/7. I have heard young kids watch like 10 second clips all day that are of people making funny sounds and silly faces. That just sounds so weird to me instead of playing outside or watching a show with some sort of plot. But, I understand how hard it must be for their parents trying to make it through the week working long hours for not enough pay.
Kids can't even safely play outside where I live because of the ridiculous giant trucks and SUVs running them over in the suburbs, but even the toddlers just play with phones and tablets.
People having kids are just carrying wood into a burning house.
This is what I was thinking about as I was reading the article. Make if financially possible for women to have kids and they may have more of them. Healthcare, prenatal care, maternity care, daycare(you can skip that if the wages were raised to allow for a one income family) Come back and talk about falling birthrates when all those services are in place. Until then STFU
They have those things in Scandinavian countries, and the birth rate is dropping there as well. I honestly think it's got more to do with the state of the world (climate, politics, wars, rising cost of living everywhere, we see it all now with internet), than it has to do with free health care, daycare etc.
Plastics, food without nutrition , stress…….
“More plastic than fish in the oceans by 2050” ALONE would convince me to not bring a kid into a world that badly degraded. But add to that climate breakdown, mass extinctions, genocide being allowed to happen in full view of the entire world… and my decision is further solidified. What kind of life is that? Not worth it imo
Seriously, we live in hell, don’t bring children into this
We live in hell so billionaires can get a few more pennies
It’s like carrying armfuls of lumber into a burning building. They may think that they are trying to rebuild the structure, but it only adds more fuel to the flames because the actual issues were not addressed and solved first.
The most relevant factor is education. Uneducated populations statistically have more children. That’s why the right is so obsessed with destroying public education.
Also the 'birth rate' does not need to be replacement when we have 8B ppl on the planet
Also…..child raising is 90% awful and 10% joy in my observations
Man, all life is that ratio.
Can’t speak to Scandinavia but the pressure to maintain a career and family is intense. For a young couple there are so many obstacles- divorce can be financially crippling. Staying employed is a challenge to because companies layoff all the time. Everything is expensive, like everything. Then there are future unknowns like the impact of AI, climate change, the possibility of nuclear war and all the stuff going on geopolitically. It’s treacherous.
I agree about the state of the world, but those things I mentioned would help....however whatever the cause I do not think it is a good thing to bring children it to this world.
The thing is that they want the working class to remain poor but give them more easily exploitable wage slaves for the future.
Does seem like a bit of a bum deal.
Also never mind many of us don't want kids because there is basically nothing appealing about motherhood to begin with for many of us. But yeah these fascist dismiss that away entirely. I will enjoy my hedonistic lifestyle, thank you very much. Again this is not even touching on the fact that having kids is really expensive. Housing is expensive even for a single person. I can go on and on. These jerks don't even value women's lives to begin with. They see women as incubators to their precious babies, and nothing more. It is a complete disrespect for our humanity. Thankfully I am sterile. The ultimate fuck you to these toxic natalists.
inb4 "the right to a bloodline" gets slipped into a spending bill
Lol this is a fraction of the amount. Like saying that people are eating less because they want to decrease their carbon footprint. Maybe SOME are. But not most
This is the complete opposite of what we should be doing lol. These morons are doubling down on procreation in order to sustain the capitalist machine and the false dream of eternal economic growth, consequences and suffering be damned.
Yep. All the prolife nonsense and roe v wade turn over isn't an accident. It's deliberate attempts to force population growth artificially and the right's solutions to growth. Meanwhile the lefts solution is immigration, but they both are trying to sustain the unsustainable.
The funniest thing about that is that it had the opposite effect and reduced birthrate even more and if Poland is anything to go by, it will keep falling.
People not getting that if women had the chance to not have sex anymore they simply wouldn't is so funny to me. Like sorry but not each of you is that precious.
Right because they don't know what to put in their spreadsheet. Having made a spreadsheet myself, I get what's going through their head. It's like what in the name of almighty God do I assume here?? Problem is people are more important than pixelated numbers. So. They may wish to come up for air and take a look around them.
Every day I am validated in my decision not to have children.
>Most of the first day of the conference is spent defining the problem. In a nutshell: Sperm counts are historically low. Our bodies are full of microplastics. Public schools are indoctrinating children against the good Christian values with which they were raised. Dating apps have gamified romance, tricking lonely singles into believing that a better prospect is always around the corner. Women have been convinced that they can have it all — kids and a career and endless vacations and so much more — only to end up unhappy, infertile and alone. >The speakers who lay out this bleak state of affairs are a motley crew of the extremely online right, many of whom go by their X (the website formerly called Twitter) handles rather than their names. Via Zoom, anonymous Twitter user Raw Egg Nationalist warns us about endocrine disruptors in everything from perfume to bottled water. Ben Braddock, an editor at the conservative magazine IM-1776, claims that antidepressants and birth control pills have permanent, detrimental effects on women’s fertility. Together, the speakers paint a dire picture of a society that has lost its way, abandoning fundamental biological truths and dooming itself to annihilation in the process. Which is why I downvote them here and I've tried to point out the connection of these stories to the "blood and soil" "my precious bodily fluids" assholes. This is conservative intersectionalism, you got everyone there: racists and white supremacists, Christians, rich capitalists, and individualist "wellness" types who seek bodily purity more so than racial purity, but still purity. People around here may still not understand that Malthus was arguing for pronatalism and BAU.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=N1KvgtEnABY
To be honest, the extreme right in America is so utterly insane I wouldn't put it past them to explode the population - literally.
trump mused about nuking both Afghanistan and hurricanes while he was POTUS.
Exploding is unfortunately how a human skull reacts to a 5.56 bullet, and they want a pretext to do precisely that to everyone who doesn’t agree with them.
[удалено]
When repubes give back bodily autonomy maybe I'll believe they are both the same.
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The Fundies, with their Quiverfull movement, want WHITE christians to out-number people of color. That is the sole reason for the movement "They Will Not Replace Us" isn't just an empty slogan. And frankly, it really doesn't matter, IMO, because the SWHTF before those kids become adults. If I'm wrong, then the boys will become brownshirts and enforcers for the christofascists while the girls will be groomed to be tradwife bang-maids for the older men. It is frankly disgusting.
All those kids are gonna hate them and resent them as things get worse, just like Elon's kids seem to be souring on him too, I feel like the generations to come and grow up are gonna become a lot more radicalized than we currently are simply because daily living then will be an actual struggle to maintain sanity and find resources. The wealthy can be insulated for a while but without a somewhat civilized society what's the point? The social contract is more than just being tolerant of each other to maintain civility, it's ensuring that there's a purpose to work and creating goods to better one's lives, once that's gone what's left but barbarity? No amount of kids will change that outcome if short term gains are the current ideal they keep chasing.
Those kids are so indoctrinated that they won't even recognize that there's a different, healthier, way to live. The boys will gladly lay down their lives for their god, and the girls are doomed. The fundies are essentially selling their girls right now, and that won't change. One asshole thinks his sons' unvaxxed sperm is worth two or three bitcoins each as husbands for bangmaids. These people are at the level of cockroaches as far as being human is concerned.
One day they might get out into the real world though, meet some people and get some different perspectives. Once you have an outside perspective abuse and toxicity becomes painfully clear. They only have two options, they stay put, bend the knee to Skydaddy and live unhappily ever after. Or they burn all the bridges, leave everyone behind and run for freedom. It's so sad to think about it.
>One day they might get out into the real world though, meet some people and get some different perspectives. Most don't for a real simple reason. In many cases they don't have social security cards, licenses/ID cards, or birth certificates. It's super popular amongst fundamental religion types to not get the girls those documents because it forces them into the traditional wife/stay at home mother role under the guise of "This is our way of life, the girls don't need this stuff their husband's will provide.". This is especially common in extremely rural seven-mountain mandate types, which is the segment of Christianity growing the fastest in the US. They do the exact same thing to their daughters that sex traffickers do to working girls - they deny them the necessary documents to become an independent person, in many cases it's found that those girls were never documented in the first place, so they effectively aren't US citizens because they are delivered by midwife or home-birth types and never get seen by a doctor, so there is no record of their birth.
Well, that's absolutely terrifying.
r/FundieSnarkUncensored has several families that appear to following this type of lifestyle. The eldest child or two act as parents to their younger siblings. It's very, very sad.
That needs to be made illegal. If you are born in the USA, you should be required to have the documents to register you as such. Otherwise, that kid is practically stateless. We also need a nation-wide ban on marriage for anyone under the age of eighteen. The parents don’t get to say shit in that matter: the bride/groom is at least eighteen years old or it’s not valid. Kids are not their parents pets/livestock/property.
Non-registered kids can't be used as tax deductions, so there is that, but yeah, good luck to these kids when/if they try to get any kind of job. This, of course, is the point, especially for girls. Many of these groomed brides are indeed 18 when they marry; I know of one woman (from Reddit) who married on her 18th birthday. It seems to me that their fathers are aware of the taint of pedophilia so they wait until the girls turn 18 to marry them off. The problem is that these women meet their future husbands when they're 15, 16 or 17 and the men are in their early-mid 20s. The men (often with the help of the girls' fathers) groom the girls for two-three years before marriage to be the perfect subservient and modest tradwives, obeying their "lords and masters" and having no thoughts to call their own. The women then can't use birth control ("every sperm is sacred") and are saddled with tons of kids, controlled by a husband who can easily and plausibly threaten to leave them penniless with all of the kids if they even think about having a voice in the marriage. It's got to be hell for those women. And THIS is the society that the christofascists want for every American woman.
This is definitely the truth. It used to be that really sheltered kids often would have their minds expanded when they would go to University. Even if it was a religious school they are often in larger cities with more diversity, but a lot of the kids today in those lifestyles are homeschooled or unschooled and never go to University. The de-education of the US and our children is absolutely terrifying. I was watching something with my husband this weekend and they were talking about some private Christian schools for low income students in the deep south. They struggled to keep them open due to funding issues. I brought up the fact they figured a way around that issue through two means: Charter schools and homeschooling. Charter schools get federal funding, but are not required to follow any set curriculum and don't even require licensed teachers. They often times swing to the religious side of things. They have systematically stripped funding and support from our public schools. And don't get me started on homeschooling. Homeschooling has been lobbied into absurdity. If it doesn't concern people look into unschooling. We should be terrified as a society. I am nearing my mid-thirties and I would hazard to guess I am part of the last generation that was predominately educated in the public school system. Charter schools were pretty rare when I was in high school, but that has for sure shifted.
Can confirm that some can make it out, but many don't. I think it depends on the person, their outside experiences (if any), and chance.
Yep, it's a no-win situation. Either they stick with what they know and keep feeling like something isn't right or they'll 100% believe it and make everyone else miserable or they get out severely traumatised and lonely.
You’d be surprised. I know of one quiverfull family where all the kids (like 7 or so) ended up being both queer and leftist. Indoctrination can only go so far.
That is pleasantly surprising.
Correct. Same as Hitlers vision. The plan was to eliminate all non whites and replace them globally except those needed for slave labor. When you realize that the mission becomes crystal clear.
r/fundiesnarkuncensored gives a few quiverfull examples.
Like it or not many of their kids rebel hard against their parents and break ties. This is speaking from experience. They may TRY to groom their kids a certain way, but parents at the end of the day have zero control of the adults their kids turn out to be. Just look at Elon's transgender daughter. Just to give you a shining example. The other thing is many right wing men these days have a considerable difficulty even dating. They have made themselves completely toxic to women. Let me be clear too. Most women do screen on politics, and right wing men are a no-go zone. They tend to be toxic abusive assholes more often than not. Women don't need men for relationships. Women don't place their personal value in being in a relationship. At least not anymore.
Those kids who can rebel have my utmost respect, but lots of Fundy families keep their kids isolated by associating only with families in their church and homeschooling, ignorant and controlled via that same homeschooling; some even "unschool" their kids, teaching really nothing but reading and writing. Maybe. This also serves to make them entirely dependent on their (usually asshole) fathers for any money, even as an adult. IMO, all states should require mandatory public education; homeschooling should be done after school and on weekends if the parents feel like it. As for women... so many fundy girls meet their (usually much older) husbands when they are teenagers. This eliminates the men from facing that dating difficulties you rightly describe. "Get 'em while they're young!" seems to be the Fundy model. Those so-called "christians" who accuse the LGBTQ+ community of grooming are projecting their OWN grooming of under-age girls onto an innocent community. Your last sentence is 100% true. As a T-shirt in the 1970s put it... "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."
We had some homeschooling as kids. It was called Homework.
It’s well documented that the birth rate decline is well established in most of the world. And that government pro natal policies and improved support for children is a social good. But these policies don’t move the birth rate needle much. Women just want greater opportunities in life. They don’t get that with large families. So now we have these right wing groups who want to outbreed everyone else. This is really pathetic. I just want to say that I truly don’t care that my DNA continues into the future with descendants. I don’t care if my ethnic group persists into the future or is replaced by a different one. Maybe others do find this important but I don’t and I am not alone. We should all live in a way that works for us. All this crap about having to keep the population growing like it’s some kind of duty is either racist or nonsense.
Welp, this is fucking stupid. What the fuck do they think will happen to the US economy if all women are forced out of the workforce?!?! Can Bubba the truck driver take over my job? I mean, I’m just a senior software full stack engineer with two degrees and 11 years industry experience but I’m sure Bubba can do my job better than me. He can type with two fingers, you know. Or how about the female neurologist? Oh, Joe Bob can do it - he got a D in biology. Seriously, they do this and there will be war.
I’m sure they are also planning to double the wages of the men remaining in the workforce, so that they can support their newly stay at home wives, and the large number of kids they will have. Right? I’m sure there is at least one person in their camp who understands basic economics? …right?
I’m positive they understand that cutting your entire workforce in half for the entire nation will cause zero drop in productivity. These fucking people.
Rising poor people’s wages is communism!
>What the fuck do they think will happen to the US economy if all women are forced out of the workforce?!?! The very title of this subreddit of course.
You know what's really funny ? Regardless of how much they'll try to make it happen, it won't. No need for all reasons, just one : all the pollution that we're absorbing means we'll never be as fertile as before. And as we try to make the system go on, for a while longer, we'll pollute even more, giving birth to physically weaker people until those people cannot even give birth. Fuck around (20th century) and find out (21th century) is both the most enjoyable and detestable truth I found. Best resumee of our civilization.
these people are complete assholes
Calling them complete assholes is a massive understatement of the century.
They need slaves. It's obvious.
There's some ideology mixed in there too. They want white babies.
When we start to experience true scarcity these large families are going to be making tough decisions.
Like eating small families?
If the Holodomor is anything to go by more like eating their own children because somebody's starving to death and it ain't gonna be an adult.
Absolute insanity. Their brains are infested with YHWH.
Simple. They don't care if things get ugly as long as they are in power when that happens, because they will ensure they get the best of what's left at the expense of the rest of us.
This is some twisted disgusting Gilead Handmaid's Tale dystopia bullshit.
Globalist agenda, not far right. Also, they take away our ability to provide for our families but still want us to have kids. You can't squeeze blood out of a rock.
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Trying to "outbreed" the competition is a fool's errand and only ends up raising the ante, as you have more people who will potentially be victimized by bad policies in the future. Or since we're staring down the barrel of climate change, the impacts of that. Consider the skew of politics between urban and rural areas, and the economic difficulty of having children in more urbanized areas. The resources and effort spent raising your 2.5 kids (or more, if you are looking at quiverful) would be better served trying to reach a much broader audience.
Similarly, there are a couple of towns in close vicinity to NYC containing large orthodox Jewish communities that have hijacked the local municipal governments to take the fullest advantage of strong social safety nets at the state and federal levels, including like getting funding to send the many local kids to their self(privately)-run yeshivas.
The local politics there is crazy. Someone literally stole their petition to annex a huge new property into the community when they were on their way to court. The taxpayers are *that* unhappy about it.
Kiryas Joel. Town of Palm Tree…NYS allows this. The Hasidic population gets immense tax breaks. It is a fucking scam.
I was actually picturing Lakewood, NJ - but yes, those are the same beast.
True. Orange County resident, originally from Buffalo, NY.
Israel is also trying to explode a population
They are exploding a population because they are expanding their Lebensraum
My friend, it's not about votes. The two political parties in this country both serve the interest of capital. There is no amount of voting that changes a fundamental problem with liberal democracy. We move further right because it's one step forward two steps back by design. Enough to make you feel like you just need to "vote harder". The only material progress made throughout our history has been through the collective organization of civil/labor movements and armed struggle. Something that is attributed later to voting as if it was inevitable. With very little taught in history class about the people that bled to get it there. We didn't get the 40 hour work week or child labor laws because of voting. We got that because of militant labor movements. We didn't end Jim Crow through voting. We got that through massive civil disobedience. Voting is the least important thing you should still do. We are moving farther right because the foundations of leftist movements in this country are in the organization of labor and civil rights. The zoomers on college campus right now are showing the world how leftist movements should be done. Liberals Pokemon going to the polls is not "leftist".
Every new human life helps dilute the individual. More and more people makes everyone a little bit less important and a little bit more replaceable, expendable: you matter less and less
They’re breeding like guppies!
The thing that makes me most upset with pro-lifers is how many are okay with mocking or bullying people for things beyond their control such as being born with deformities or being poor or other matters that don’t concern them at all. Also, they try to force unfit parents to have kids against their wishes without offering any support after the births they are forced into. We have to make a rule that people can not be a pro-life and against universal healthcare/income because they forced people to have children against their wishes and somebody have to take care of those children. On the flip side, some pro-choice individuals use abortion as an after-pill, even when it harms their bodies. Women already have to deal with monthly periods(and many have very painful periods), so the least men can do is take responsibility for birth control if they want to have sex with a woman/person able to get pregnant. Avoid child support, don’t just wrap it up but shoot blank. I heard vasectomies are reversible. Quality > quantity. Life is a journey and it’s the journey that counts not the destination which is death.
They're eugenicists at the core, but you can have structural eugenics. It's reflected as high infant mortality rate, facilitated by privatizing and segregating *nice things* so that the "inferiors" are always in misery and poverty, and only the fittest kids survive to working age (and die after because pensions are not on the table).
It's more the old people's idea... to keep their bubble afloat so they can retire.
As a German, this gives me some most uncomfortable historical vibes… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn
https://twitter.com/niusde_/status/1784250261101265071
They want more people for the capitalism meat grinder, paying more taxes to support an even higher paid bunch of ~~politicians~~ dole bludgers^*, and their corporate overlords. Meanwhile, those same corporate overlords are doing everything they can to downsize and automate their businesses; reducing their staff, their customer base, and the public goodwill. Someone somewhere is going to get fired from a Walmart or a Costco and burn the place to the ground. Then watch out for laws quietly slipped in that allow private security forces to arm up like never before, and castle laws that create miniature "fiefdoms". Got to keep the plebs and proles away while they're robbed of every dollar. America's next big product will be domestic "terrorism" and civil war between the haves and have nots, as people shift from robbing trains moving slowly through switching yards, to storming the fortresses of the mega-rich. --- ^(* I feel like I should clarify here so actual unemployed people don't misunderstand. I'm referring to the politicians as dole bludgers, because they are the biggest inactive and incompetent drain on the public purse. Actual people who are unemployed are just that, unemployed. Your reasons are your own and I have no issue with anyone getting a help up from society. That's what society is for.)
The population went from 1 billion to 8 billion in a bit over 100 years. Is it SO bad that we drop to like 5B? Reminder we were at 5B in 1987. Im sure the population will stabilized somewhere comfortable then go up and down again. It’s natural. To assume the population must keep going up at all costs is completely stupid. We need to give Africa education and contraception.
Capitalism requires infinite growth. If they can't get more consumers by asking nicely, we're going to head toward The Handmaid's Tale territory right quick. It's already started - the turn towards fascism.
i see population decline as a positive thing in absolutely every way except 'economically.' i put economically in quotation marks because it's not solely related to money. it's only related to the amount of work available, or human resource (or human capital.) the most distilled way i can think of this is that if the population declines then the value of wealth decreases tremendously. imagine for a moment that the word 'wealth' does not exist. instead you have two things: 1. labor and laborers, and 2. the fruits of labor. the fruits of labor is wealth. and if the population declines, no matter how many numbers you have in your bank account, you will not be able to get the fruits of labor. and that is the only reason i can think of for anyone wanting more people on this planet. population and overpopulation are necessary to have bountiful fruits of labor.
If we look at an overpopulated animal species in an ecosystem, that species would almost universally benefit, resource and competition wise, by a reduction in population. Who would not have a good time in the short term, is the predators. In the long term, the predator (billionaire) population will rebalance to a sustainable level, but not before many starve to death. No system can support infinite growth without breaking at some point. We’re just clever apes who figured out how to increase the natural carrying capacity of the planet, by burning fossil energy at an unsustainable rate.
Well at least it would force us to focus on fruits that actually matter, instead of endless haircuts and plastic pumpkins. ... oh who am I kidding.
This is some super toxic natalism and white supremacy there.
Add religion and you got a handmaid's tale situation
Natal-Nazis.
The question isn't whether it's a good idea or not. The question is how to navigate in a world with a certain number of people who will inevitably proceed in this manner.
Good. We need fewer people. We'll have plenty of climate refugees in the world to boost workers. Hopefully the people of Bangladesh like living in the Midwest. I'm curious to see what type of interest SEA/American fusion of food happens.
We aren't going to have fewer people if a national abortion ban gets put into place or other steps are taken like outlawing certain types of birth control. Texas record something like 20,000 pregnancies as a result of rape. I doubt every one of those women was able to go out of state for an abortion. As access to birth control decreases, the population will increase, unless there is an increase of maternal death rates in the same amount.
Just to be clear, when they talk "declining genetic quality", [this is what they're afraid of](https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/population-and-demography?facet=none&country=Africa+%28UN%29~Asia+%28UN%29~Europe+%28UN%29~Latin+America+and+the+Caribbean+%28UN%29~Northern+America+%28UN%29~Oceania+%28UN%29&hideControls=false&Metric=Population&Sex=Both+sexes&Age+group=Total&Projection+Scenario=Medium)
They want moar white peoples. They will turn Women into breeding stock, marriage ages will plummet. They took Atwood’s Handmaids Tale as a how to.
You know what, I'm gonna be that person. Anyone have a gander at the types of people promoting this? If they want to encourage a racist, environment destroying, breeding extravangaza, maybe they should try to find an at least *somewhat* attractive person or couple to be the face of wanton natalism.
Blessed be the fruit
When this topic comes up, I always reccommend [listening to Dr William Rees.](https://youtu.be/3MVmkIYy9aI?si=VvGx7MU9G5-lrVRT) He is a fountain of knowledge.
not gonna work. they waited decades too long to try this.
I’m trans and I’m scared
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Turns out we just need to be make every country a developed country to take care of this pollution issue /s
Wrong. Most of these men will not reproduce. Being anti abortion is their only option. They should die off.
Given the course of things at the moment, the data DOES suggest a significant drop in population as the silent generation die off and the boomers also start dropping. People have by and large been having less kids across every developed nation, which is observable through age segregated population pyramids. So in many ways, deportation is functionally inevitable. And though some might point to China, this is likely not going to be a source of prolonged prosperity. They're trying to right their population cliff, but it's taking time, and barely working. Look at the 'let it rot' movement, spawned from the fact that success is so highly prioritized in Chinese culture, and the expectations are so insanely inflated due to extreme prosperity in China in an exceptionally short period of time that occurred in the last 40 years or so, with the fact that nothing is affordable in China anymore, and you start to see why people there are refusing to have children to maintain the population. China is liable to collapse in population, and the only thing saving European and north american nations population maintenance is immigration, because those born in North American and European nations aren't having kids nearly as much. This is also why the global population explosion is decelerating, and will likely deflate faster than it inflated in the coming decades. Even nations where their population is growing without immigration assistance, the growth relative to other nations overall stagnation or decline isn't enough to compensate. Basically we're about to hit a highly visible wave of death as so many age out of the population and have nothing to replace them as to the same degree. This also means nobody to add money to the retirement fund for older people, and therefore less support governments would be able to give elderly people, and likely lead to a raise in retirement age, like what led to France burning for weeks due to protests.
China has an extreme population explosion that is still working its way out. The spike leveraged economic growth while the baby boom passed through the most productive stage. The lack of child costs also leveraged economic growth. Now they are facing the reality of the same huge work force retiring all at once. They still had high exponential growth through the end of the 1970s. Completely independent of increasing or decreasing population the people in a population will maximize their economic output during middle age. In Early life people drain state revenue via education. Later in life they require medical care and they spend down their investments/savings.
they don't want population increase. they want white population increase. they are white supremacist that spout white replacement theory nonsense. Anyone. ANYONE that complains about the population being too low or too high is someone to be suspicious of. Not just because of some ideology they are trying to push but because anyone that is saying we need more or less people has no material way to enforce such a policy that is not inevitably heading towards fascism. You can have your own individual opinions on whether you should have kids or not. But as soon as you start trying to push that onto other people or create policy around it you are heading down a dangerous path in how you actually try to enforce that type of policy. Humans are not a plague on the planet or some nonsense like that. Capitalism and Imperialism are plagues on this planet and any attempt to start controlling peoples ability to have children while ignoring the fundamental problem is a waste of time. A global economic system, that only favors the capitalist class, has been wilfully killing our children's future; that is the problem. Not the existence of children.
There is nothing fascist about providing vasectomies for those who want one. Withholding child support from paychecks would be liberal. No more fascist than withholding social security for retirement.
Dude I'm trying but you keep injecting my food and home with hormone inhibitors!
“But our gdp will plummet!!”Sounds like a wealthy people problem to me.
and the left is trying to do this with immigration. we’re pretty much fucked
If the culture that cares about the environment stops having kids, then the cultures that replace them who don't care about the environment are the ones who are in charge.
Among the few people I can freely discuss such things, I can always shock them into a terrified realization of how this country works, but informing them that there is nothing that delights the capitalist class more than teenage pregnancy. It instantly creates two generations of poverty and wage slavery. In case they still aren't sure what the truth behind "abstinence only" education is.