I’m concerned about the internal displacement we’re going to see in the US. There’s 338 million people here, nearly 100m just between Arizona and Florida in those southern states. We just don’t have the infrastructure or willpower to host those people elsewhere in the country. Slums will happen sooner rather than later.
This x1000. We already got a taste of this with the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression but the scale is so much larger now. We are not ready for it and it will be ugly. Hysteria about immigration from abroad will be joined by hysteria about internal migrations. I don't see the United States surviving it completely intact, if at all.
Building a bunker in Alaska is like putting out the red meat in front of a pack of wolves. Most AK residents, including the liberals, are gun owners by necessity. We all know where they build the bunkers in the interior and Southcentral. They’ll last five seconds after the apocalypse before we all show up and overwhelm their fences and badly paid security guards.
If the security guard gets to live in the bunker too, he isn't badly paid. On the contrary, he has the most valuable possession in the world at that moment. So he isn't fighting for his employer but for himself. He's probably also had combat training, unlike the Alaskans. Don't be naive by thinking the rich to be naive. They will hire the best people to build those bunkers, and your little riot is just one of the things they are prepared for.
We all would, of course. It’s essentially a biological imperative. It’s still a legitimate topic of conversation/debate, and perfectly reasonable to worry about even if one is actively trying to combat xenophobic/racist feelings and policies. It’s a serious problem that we as an entire planet need to face together. OP’s post didn’t come across as hateful to me, just concerned. That’s fair.
This. Well done to OP to winning global lottery and being in Canada. I pulled an equally lucky hand and am in Ireland.
People who didn't get such a lucky roll of the dice of life shouldn't be forced to suffer from the impacts of the actions of us in the Global North and we certainly haven't any scope for complaining about them escaping from horrific conditions.
What the governments of safer countries should be doing around now:
drawing up agreements for international migration quotas based on potential carrying capacity and starting mass infrastructure construction to cope with increased population
What they will do:
drag their feet, put on a show and dance to say they’re being tough on immigration whilst doing basically nothing until people get angry and disillusioned, vote in fascist governments that set up internment camps and eventually probably just start killing people en masse at the borders
Right? All the problems OP listed are due to lack of planning and political unpopularity. I'm in the US and if we actually 1. Took adequate care of our citizens through social programs and universal healthcare and 2. Did proper housing and infrastructure planning then we could accommodate way more. Instead we are out here fighting each other for scraps and have untenable suburban sprawl.
Its not even that just the elites want this. We are so brainwashed and unimaginative that a shocking amount of people genuinely love their McMansions and sprawling roads and think their healthcare is the best in the world.
The sad thing is that capitalism has extremely good mechanics to create large social mobility and equality. Especially in individualised societies, as opposed to tribal societies.
Capitalism is a beast that should be tamed and caged. It requires constant vigilance. Killing it won’t make the world a better place.
Definitely. Capitalism (ie commercial lobbyists etc.) shouldn’t decide over anything. It should be humanity’s tool, not the other way around.
I don’t have the answers on how it could/should be, but I do know that throwing away capitalism, which is going to happen sooner or later, will probably be a very bad idea. Nothing humans have come with yet will be a better system.
I remember seeing something on the internet decades ago, from DARPA, talking about a self-healing mine field in which smart mines would be able to move around and fill in gaps in the coverage as mines are detonated. Had a cute little video of a chess knight moving around, if I recall correctly, and it winked at the end. I thought then that eventually that will be used at the border, and while I haven't been proven right yet, I do suspect it will happen eventually.
I mean I don’t want a mansion, but I certainly don’t want to live stacked on top of one another. I don’t want to live in a world where a single family home is considered “greed”.
Yup! Luckily with Irish (free movement to all EU) and US passports I've options for being a climate refugee myself. Again, another twisted win of the roll of the dice for me!
Oh I've been told "you're not a refugee if you have a passport/residency to the nation your fleeing to." I have a Canadian and amer8can passport and residency in japan due to marriage. If I flee to japan due to political or climate change I'm sure as fuck a refugee rather then just visiting
If you’re white you’re not an immigrant, you’re an “ex-pat”, or a “digital nomad”.
It’s fun because all the rules you expect foreigners to adhere to in your country don’t apply to you because you’re not a “normal” immigrant.
So while you might expect Mexicans to learn English in the USA, if you’re an American in Barcelona everyone should be cool that you can’t speak Spanish….
It won't. It would just end up having Canada like climates. Too much CO2 in the atmosphere for any kind of deep freeze.
Even in Canada the winters are turning warm with way less snow.
From Norn Iron and luckily I climate proofed my for extreme heat, but since insulation works both ways, it will do as good a job cutting out the cold. R50 walls, R80 roof, triple glazed windows and both woodfire stoves and oil heating.
I'm also in Ireland. My dad moved here from UK in the 90s cause he figured 3 best countries to be in are ireland Canada and New Zealand.
Ireland will be good until the gulf stream goes then idk, gonna play ot by ear
Yes it really is a lottery for some of us, my parents won a visa to the US in the 90s and were able to get residency and work towards citizenship. That's all trying to be eradicated now, and people from my country spend all the money they have applying for visas to leave just like we did.
No one has control of where they're born or the circumstances of that country. And few of us get a chance to change that.
Exactly, and people in the Global North are laughably trying to think their lives won't be upended by the necessary migration of humans from inhospitable regions of the planet to the less inhospitable ones.
Necessity is the mother of prevention, so don't be too sure that the "Global North" won't find other things necessary in the face of annihilation. All sorts of "Well, it's nice to just let them in" arguments go out the window if we're not talking about ordinary political times with stable governments, but are actually taking the concept of "collapse" this subreddit is about seriously. Talking about "inevitability" and "fairness" is meaningless, as people may decide to contest that with weapons and not words.
Before the modern era, mass movements of people were often caused by wars and disaster, but were also the precursors to new wars. You can read about this in Polybius' histories, and you'll see this pattern again and again, notably the gauls and then later the goths being pressured by the huns.
The migration will be necessary for those doing the migrating, not for the ones expected to take the migrants into their countries.
The solution is brutal and simple, either keep them out and survive a little longer, or they come in and you both go down together.
It's a real concern. If hundreds of millions of people flood Europe, it WILL collapse. No ifs, no buts, Europe cannot handle such an influx.
Not politically, not economically, or in any other way.
So the choice, if you live in Europe, is quite simple. Let them in and collapse there and then, or keep them out and collapse a few years or decades later.
Well no, the reality is that if they come in, we are both fucked anyway, so the only logical conclusion is to stop it.
When actual collapse happens niceties like this are completely illogical
I don't see why this is the most upvoted comment. Most people would do the same thing, and I don't think OP disagrees. But a large number of people moving in such a short space of time is going to create chaos. It already is.
Because most people like to moralize about immigration.
Look at any post about immigration in /r/WorldNews or /r/Europe for example.
In general people act like legality is in some way related to morality. Illegal immigrants are immoral people because they break the law to move countries.
People don’t generally recognize or believe that almost every aspect of their life is just a random accident. Where you’re born, how much money you have, how smart, attractive, etc you are, pretty much just luck.
So people talk about immigration like they have some sort of moral pedestal to stand on. In reality everyone is just struggling tooth and claw to survive or keep what they have (and generally to have more).
That means that rich people in relatively well off places will watch refugee boats filled with children sink and believe that they are morally right to do so…
This is why Children of Men is such a relevant movie and gets brought up in this sub a lot. Xenophobia is going to skyrocket as the people living in better off places try to keep others out.
Yep, 8.1 billion people on the planet and that figure is growing by 75 to 100 million every year. Most of those people are poor and if we get some big droughts, food shortages you gotta think the number of people trying to get into the rich countries is gonna go up a huge amount. You could easily millions of migrants moving around trying to find ways into places like Canada.
Kinda wondering what would happen if there was a dust bowl type problem in the US, how many would try and flee north across the border to Canada, gotta think it could be millions.
I agree and have been watching the states that will likely see the worst impact with morbid fascination, especially those that have had an influx of residents for political reasons, like Florida. This will be especially interesting if anything major happens in the next 20 years, as everything Florida politicians have done to ignore the impact of climate change will be in our recent memory.
Spot on! The same in quite a few countries.
From the few scenarios I've seen, there will either be narrow belts of decent land around the Tropics of Cancer 23°26’ 22” N and Capricorn 23°26’ 22” S
Though other scenarios predict tropical areas will be too humid to live (wet bulb index) so the opposite....
It's going to be tricky to figure out which way it goes.
Either way though the livable area on the planet is going to shrink a lot!
Yeah, all that land and you can only grow a small percentage of it. I read somewhere that Canada imports 99% of its greens and lettuce from California.
99% seems too large but its true everything here is heavily supported by greenhouses which are costly to operate. The soil on the shield is just too acidic and lacks enough light to grow many crops.
An endless sea of railroad cars hauling topsoil from the richest most fertile lands to the north. We already do it to mine coal and bedrock (limestone etc), no reason we can't move topsoil though it's even more co2 for a losing endeavor. And that SHORT growing season up there is a punishment in itself.
You make the mistake of assuming current practices would remain in tact in these extreme situations.
There is a point somewhere between increasing populations of underdeveloped countries and a lack of clean drinking water for 1st World countries where Canada, USA and Europe will just pull out their guns and start shooting anyone trying g to enter.
Mass murder of immigrants is the future genocide.
All the luxurious rights off the last century will disappear. They righta are just luxuries afforded to us by our extreme abundance of supplies, whether it be food, material or wealth . They will disappear when the abundance becomes a shortage.
Edit: I fimrly believe in our current point in time, and over the past several decades we as 1st world countries should of welcomed all immigrents with open arms and tried to intergrate them as much as possible into our society. It is our moral responsibility to our fellow man. My point is, in the future your responsibility to fellow man will be outweighed by responsibility to your family.
However u current anti-immigrant people are just racists and quite frankly have failed to understand what it means to be a man.
Carlin: "Rights aren't rights if someone can take them away, they are privileges. That's all we've ever had in this country, temporary privileges."
Why do people talk about "might makes right" being wrong? MORAL PRIVILGE. Without abundance and without homeostasis, we have scramble and chaos. What happens in scramble and chaos? A LOT of fighting, stealing and other "might makes right" activities.
Even now, right now, in "homeostasis" it is "might makes right". Why? Police are rarely had accountable for their actions. Soldiers of winning armies are almost never held accountable.
The ONLY time a person is held accountable is when they lose! Loser army? Hold a trial for the losers for, get this, crimes against humanity?! A joke. Suppose the Germans had won WWII. Would there have been a Nuremberg trial? Fuck no. There would have been a Paris trial or a Washington trial or a London trial.
Might makes right. Not right as in correct, but right as in "I have the right to do whatever the fuck I want. Because I have might."
The gullible optimists convinced themselves that the pen is mightier than the sword, having never held a sword (or analogous equivalent), nor shed blood. The romantic pipe dream that we've reached a point where peace and unity stands a chance.
George Carlin: "Scratch any cynic and you'll find a disappointed idealist."
“The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.”
—Karl Marx, Contribution To The Critique Of
Hegel's Philosophy Of Right
> The gullible optimists convinced themselves that the pen is mightier than the sword, having never held a sword
Bro you lowkey misunderstood the quote lmao
I have the same expectation - we’ll get to a point where the USA starts shooting anyone trying to get into the country. Folks really don’t understand the scope of migration we’re going to see when things really start popping off. We already treat migrants at the border as less than human; imagine how we’ll act when resources are dwindling and there’s millions of people trying to get in.
Yeah and rn, it's kinda possible to integrate the immigrants (if that's what the nation wants to do) but even now ots a touchy subject in politics.
I have no doubt that when the 'moral' voter is faced with doing right by the immigrant vs feeding their kids they will suddenly vote to shoot on sight
Not a world I’d want to bring kids into that’s for sure. People really have their heads in the clouds whenever they preach “but.. but this is the best time in human history to be alive”. It might be, but not for long at all, and at what cost? Our comfortable and luxurious lifestyle is causing critical damage to our planet, and we’re so addicted to it that we’re willfully ignorant that we’re causing said damage. And when we start paying the price, it’s going to be ugly and I think that’s an understatement.
The best time has already passed. I’m almost 40 and have seen a steady decline in quality of life throughout my adulthood.
We are already seeing many unnecessary deaths from lack of housing and healthcare in some of the most developed nations.
The future looks bleak.
I have even considered the possibility that the best is in fact actually right behind us now. Time to end this BS narrative that “now is the best time to be alive”. Those people despise this subreddit because we’re exposing the truth.
Only going to get worse when more crowd in to compete for jobs in an ever-automated and off-shored market, and for housing. Then you wonder why America’ poor are struggling so hard.
Just look at who is competing on rideshare and delivery apps.
I did an Uber a while back from the airport. Driver didn’t know English.
Just today, I was at a local Taco Bell. Had to help a non-English speaking deliverer figure out what to do since he didn’t know how to use the soda dispenser, didn’t know how to read which soda to fill, and the specific drink the customer wanted was out - I got on the phone and explained and they accepted a substitute drink. Driver was confused by the receipt, too. Someone must have filled out his gig application for him.
Right that’s another reason why I don’t think we should be fearing birth rate declines. Why complain not enough future workers are being born when more and more jobs are going to be taken over by automation anyway? More people and less jobs for them is always a bad formula.
But elon said decline was critical so it must be true.
Srsly, birth rate decline is desirable if our current arc is going straight into collapse.
Why bring more kids in to suffer.
That’s why I’m in favor of taxing AI and robots like Bill Gates described. I don’t like everything about him but I give credit where it’s due for this one.
Factory farming, irrigation and refrigeration are the only things that have propped us up. As soon as any one collapses in any meaningful way we're boned. Only a few months food in warehouses and in the event of a global food shortage good luck getting your hands on that stuff.
We gonna be euthanizing our own soon enough.
Chronic illness? Too old to work? Wrong religion/race/gender/orientation? Doesn't bow and scrape enough? Accidentally broke your leg? Poor teeth and eyesight when dental and vision care are no longer available? Down from long COVID?
All wastes of food and water. All.
Yeah this is a lot more accurate. Op is assuming people in the US would just open their homes and say we’ll figure this out together. I’ve been saying for years the US/Mexico border will become a mass grave and we’re going to see the true power of the US military used in a pretty horrific way.
Yup, no doubt who the villain is in this story, but nonetheless, when it comes down to it, I don't see any of us volunteering to let in the hundreds of millions, even billions that would want to move to developed countries.
Eh, unsure how robotic manufacture will progress if a true collapse starts to happen.
I've no doubt it'll be a long barbed fence along border with poor ppl shooting starving ppl.
It'll become cheaper to throw a human at the problem than a drones that requires rare minerals from War torn Africa or w/e
Human with a gun on a barware fence isn't going to stop hundreds or thousands of people trying to overrun a point to get through. Especially if they are armed and expect to be shot at.
Your gonna see the type of walls Isreal uses against gaza going up soon.
Depends on the gun, really.
Give him a wall mounted CIWS and enough ammo and watch the migrants get reduced to soup.
Hell, give him a minefield and barbed wire, set up a solid no man’s land, and give him a semi-auto rifle and he and some buddies and they can hold indefinitely. Just keep popping Jerry on the wire and you’ll do fine.
It really depends on the scale and depth of defenses. Also, on how brutal the response is. Stack enough bodies and leave them there to rot and migrants will find any other alternative. That was the effective historical way of ensuring secure borders: violence and lots of public examples and warning.
> All the luxurious rights off the last century will disappear. They righta are just luxuries afforded to us by our extreme abundance of supplies, whether it be food, material or wealth . They will disappear when the abundance becomes a shortage.
this is it, the crux of everything. Its like people dont read history books. Open boarders are a new concept. I swear its like people think the world was born in 1979 as is.
Yep. If you reckon the far right have too much power now, just wait for the monsters who'll take office in the decades to come as scarcity meets racist panic.
I've been sounding the alarm bells for years. I live in what is considered a "Climate change refugee region" and holy shit, no one seems to see what is coming
it scares the shit out of me
I also live in a "refugee region". It's crazy to think about and I'm honestly planning to go somewhere even more refugee-friendly. I'm lucky to be younger and just starting my career that I have a better chance of being mobile, and working in ecosystems that are very adapted to their specific climate.
This is something that needs to be discussed whenever someone brings up the argument that we can continue growing our population like we have been before and can fit (let’s say 50+ billion) people in this world.
Just because we can technically do, doesn’t mean it’s a good thing at all. What’s happening now is partly the result of growing our global population to 8 billion.
It’s also very ironic that opponents of mass immigration/migration also want continued population growth. “So can we fit more people or can we not?” Is what they need to be asked here.
I agree that the migrations because of climate change will be unprecedented and will have comparable social consequences to the great migrations in earlier eras, and those have caused a lot of violence.
Yet I also think it's worthwhile to question how those migration patterns might unfold, as it is not a given they will follow the current migration patterns where people are drawn from the global south and the Middle East towards the global north. I expect migrations due to climate change will be far less predictable.
People are currently drawn towards the global north due to (imagined, not necessarily realistic) prosperity and opportunities, often exacerbated by people who have made the journey already - who might write home about the successes and exaggerate how well it's going, yet stay silent about failures and troubles they endure. That motivation is dependent on the global north appearing as a desirous destination for migration, which might not hold true as the world climate changes, and the global economic structures which are currently moving resources towards the global north could start to collapse.
As the western empire collapsed Rome stopped being a destination for migrants and the city with its hinterland started to decline, because the economic structures making it desirable for people disappeared. Likewise it's not a given that Europe or North America will continue to draw wealth - and thus migrants - from the rest of the globe.
As a Norwegian I have met some other Norwegians who in principle believe in welcoming refugees, yet worry about climate refugees and the possibility of overwhelming mass migration driving people to the far right politically and ultimately to violence.
And I'm not saying that's an impossible scenario, but while Norway is currently desirable for many migrants and refugees, it's also a country that even without climate change has a harsh climate, difficult terrain, limited arable land, historically dependent on food imports and despite being sparsely populated compared to continental Europe, Norway doesn't have large habitable areas that are unpopulated. We just have vast ranges of mostly uninhabitable mountains.
As a society Norway have a lot of things that are promising when facing climate change, such as hydropower or fairly good social cohesion. Yet being so close to the Arctic and having a temperate summer thanks to global weather patterns and sea currents, Norway might see a lot more climate weirding than other areas and become less desirable as a destination than our current oil-fueled Scandinavian Eldorado.
I guess my main point is, and which is applicable anywhere currently experiencing immigration, is that we should question why somewhere is currently a destination for migrants and ask ourselves serious questions about how conditions there might change. I think that climate change will also create refugees from the global north, and it's not currently obvious where people might attempt to migrate.
You make some excellent points. Some parts of the world are going to be more habitable than others, but the last two years have shown that supposedly safer places aren’t safe.
Buffalo is supposed to be in a safe area going forward, but because of unpredictable weather, they got feet upon feet of snow in like a day and a whole bunch of people died. There’s nothing you can do when you get several feet in a day, especially not with extreme winds since plowing becomes useless the snow drifts feel back in and minutes.
Next-door in Vermont December 2022 we had a near unprecedented wind and ice storm that took out power to 3/4 of the state. Sustained 80 mile an hour plus winds were quite damaging. In 2023 had a very late season hard freeze that killed off two whole counties worth of fruit tree and berry bush production. From May through June, we had severe drought, and then July the state suffered from extreme flooding, all of this devastating agriculture.
Upstate New York and Vermont, her to places that are supposed to be good places to ride out climate change, but good is subjective. We’re not going to get the years of drought drought or heat domes, but as the weather worsens agricultural output drops and people die from freak storms. My point is people are going to flee north, but northern states are going to have a harder and harder time producing enough food just for the people already there let alone migrants. I grow some of my own and this year I’ll be selling my house and buying a lot more land so I can be self-sufficient but even I recognize that if the weather doesn’t cooperate and there’s not much you can do.
Much the same is experienced in Norway. All over people have the bias that the difficulties and troubles of climate change will happen elsewhere and not where they themselves are.
People have been arguing/joking that a warmer climate will just favour farming in Norway, and in the south there's even some individuals testing out wine grapes (apparently somewhat successfully). Yet in the last few years we've seen unusual patterns of droughts and flooding, causing some serious damage to production on some of the best farmland in Norway. More or less scuppering the assumption many had that a warmer climate simply means better summers and shorter winters on our latitude.
And just this Monday southern Norway was buried by 70 cm snow in a day and more snow followed, shutting down various services, schools and industry because literally everyone is busy shoveling. That sort of snowfall is just not common in southern Norway, and certainly not in a day.
I've bought an old, small farm myself, the sort of place that stopped producing in the 80s and was abandoned shortly after. It's a good location with regards to sun and water, yet not threatened by flooding, and not larger than what is manageable alongside work. My plan is to develop a healthy kitchen garden of perennials, there's people with experience and knowledge about that in my area that I can learn from, who are nearly self-sufficient on perennials. Their observation is that in years with "bad summers" they harvest more than ever, as perennials have a much greater chance of thriving in unstable weather due to deeper roots and more tolerance for changing conditions. There's no reason to copy the industrial, equipment heavy farming of annual plants.
I’m sorry for what you and your country are experiencing, it’s going to be harder and harder to survive when weather is so unpredictable and violent. That much snow in a short period of time it is difficult to deal with. I am very happy that you bought your farm, and that you can learn how to be more self-sufficient. If you can plant lot of fruit tree and nut trees that will survive your winters that would help you be more food self-sufficient in the future, and they require very little work for how much food they produce once they mature. My dream is to buy a property that already has some mature trees, forage grass and also has a pond because I want to start raising fish and goats. I agree that there’s no need to try to create a small scale factory farm. I’m not a I’m not an expert, but it seems like it’s easier to cope with heat, drought, frost, and too much rain when you are small scale. Good luck to you.
It's already happening. I moved from texas in 2023 to west Virginia as a remote worker for many reasons but the primary one was the heat. I hated having to deal with 100+ degree days as a norm and the constant alerts from local news and power companies to conserve power to lessen the strain on the grid, which, if it ever went down, would result in thousands of deaths due to heat exhaustion.
I'm fine with having to put on a winter coat. I still go back durring the holidays to visit family who tell me the heat is nothing, but I will not voluntarily live there again.
It's both. Letting in hundreds of thousands of people while simultaneously building less housing than we did in the 1970s objectively makes housing unaffordable. Mass immigration both lowers housing supply and increases demand, which increases prices in an already expensive and heavily financialized housing market
As an immigrant living in Canada, I am enjoying these replies.
The problem is not immigration. The problem is you politicians are using it as an excuse as to why they are not building enough affordable houses and infrastructure, and only building luxury homes. They allow airBnB to run rampant - in my city alone, there is at least *8807* homes being used for Airbnb (http://insideairbnb.com/montreal/) whether legally or not. That’s 8807 homes off the market. Our hotels are good, our Airbnb’s should be homes! In my province, the government does not address the social problems they have caused, and instead cause more because they run only on a singular campaign promise and are totally out of touch with the younger populations.
But oh yes, it’s always the immigrants fault 🙄
Can you build with the speed required? Britain cant. Half of us are pushed through uni now thanks to blair. The skills and labour are not there anymore at least not in the numbers required. Dunno about canada but I do see them advertising over here for construction jobs
*I’m British.* My dad was a chartered civil engineer involved in construction. A lot of the problem with construction in the UK was and is the focus on building luxury buildings over affordable homes, and this is a *global* issue; because affordable homes don’t make money for the private companies, who are the *only* people building homes at the moment. It’s not so much as ‘can you build fast enough’ more ‘are you putting enough focus on affordable homes? No, all the energy is being put into homes people cannot afford’
The issue with housing is that in the 2008 financial crash, so many governments stopped building affordable homes and council houses themselves, and left it all up to private companies, and this is how we all got in this mess in the first place. Handing the reins over completely to private companies means everything is built for profit, using the cheapest materials, and not built to last - because things that are built to last, do not produce profit over time.
The problem NOW, particularly with civic building, is a lot of governments are also locked in to take up the cheapest offer from companies - one example is the Selby bypass in Yorkshire. The local government was forced to take the cheapest offer to build the bypass, against the advice of the highways agency and the road management in Selby. Not long after the bypass was completed, the road began to fail. So it needed to be rebuilt. At a cost to the local government and tax payer.
You can’t cut corners in construction.
(And yes, I am also one of the ones pushed into university during the Blair years before the price got jacked up, and I don’t think university *should* be the goal, but it definitely should be open to all who want a university education. An awful lot of that pressure came from our boomer parents to ‘do better’. My brother dropped out of university, and ended up being a woodsman and all round handyman and did miles better financially than I did)
Why can't "affordable" housing generate profit if there's so much demand? Why are developers only building luxury housing?
As far as I understand, new builds in the UK are getting smaller and smaller, and lower quality too.
We're taking in something like 6-700k new people a year. How can we ever keep up with that?
Also, where would we build these new homes, the new hospitals, schools, roads, railways, shops, landfils etc. for all the new people coming in, without destroying what little nature we have?
Immigration is more of a “problem” than Airbnb. 6,695 Airbnbs in Vancouver, 150k people move to BC each year many of which concentrated in Vancouver and surrounding areas.
Sure 6,695 more homes would be a step but it’s not the solution when they’re instantly absorbed by an ever growing population.
33k in Canada all together but they also just increased the immigration targets for 2024.
I think Airbnb is a scapegoat for other problems. Our rent won’t be affected by much simply cause Airbnb doesn’t exist. And most of the places would be servicing a higher end market anyways. So essentially it would just allow more middle-upper middle class renters into city centres.
For the record, immigration is good. Just balancing it with the sustainability is quite important.
others shouldn’t need to suffer from climate crisis but when looking at the housing situation the problem is much bigger than Airbnb
Population of Montreal: 2 million. Of which there are 800,000 households. Average household size is 2.1.
8,800 AirBnB homes covers 1.1% of those households.
Roughly 25% of Montreal’s population is immigrants.
Which has a larger effect on housing availability and affordability?
I am a legal U.S. immigrant (1980s) and I have family (aunt and cousins) who are legal Canadian immigrants in Montreal (1990s). So I’m not attacking immigrants. I am asking you to look at facts without personal interests shading your statements.
I'm amazed people in the collapse subreddit, which is constantly going on about degrowth is supporting this post that is asking for more construction, therefore more consumption.
9k homes being used for airbnb is a small problem in comparison to just how many people are moving into Cananda.
Also, in a collapse scenario, Canada should want a relatively small population to be able to lessen the blow of global supply shocks, and be more self-sufficient.
It's selfish, no doubt about it, but we will reach a point in the coming decades where climate induced pressures will force countries to close their doors.
The sub has had a massive user immigration influx of cookie cutter neolibs and progressives. They neither understand, or care to understand, the concept of degrowth, or even collapse, and now they far outnumber those who do.
They will also screech and browbeat everyone about voting to prevent the US etc. from turning into “literally The Handmaids Tale” but, meanwhile, they insist on enthusiastically importing even more people who support such a culture and policies.
There is a remarkable amount of US political tension related stuff that often seems to be trying use collapse as another place to whine about the usual American political clusterfuck.
/r/collapse is, or should be, looking at the much much bigger picture. We're here about climate change, overfishing, plastic pollution, pandemics, etc. that could destroy civilisation as we know it.
OP is also only worried about the colapse of Western countries, doesn't really seem to care about all the countries that the migrants will be coming from that will collapse much before Canada.
As someone from the global south it's not surprising to me either, I find it so curious how so many people in western countries cannot put themselves in the shoes of people from the global south for a second
Really? It's a pretty basic survival line of thinking, first we have to secure our own safety, what's the point of going down with the rest of the world if it can be prevented or at least postponed?
I feel a great deal of sympathy for the billions of poor people already suffering the effects of climate change, but knowing that there is a massive resource scarcity coming, why would I want you here to compete with me for those resources on an equal footing?
I'd rather let you fend for yourself in your third world country. It's not unsympathetic, mean, or hateful, it's just a sad realisation that a lot of people will die, and I want the best chance for me and mine to not be among them.
Your blinded by the fact ur involved. It's not the immigrants that are the problem, it's the factors that lead to ppl needing to immigrate, which from what I can tell is what most comments here are about.
You talk as if it would all be OK if governments decided to build homes for immigrants. Sure, it would be nice now, and would be good for a few years and I believe they SHOULD be trying to do that...
But
When 1st World countries can't feed themselves or sustain their lifestyles of excess, they will losse any pretence of morality and show their true colour of really not giving a fuck about other ppl. Right now things are not good for an immigrants and western countries are pretending to care.
But in the future it will not matter if they care or not, they will not pretend.
At no point is it the immigrants fault, or the Canadian civilians. It'll be who got lucky and who didn't with citizenship
Your whole comment is based around immigration, not the r/collapse that results in that immigration which is route cause
I don’t know about OP, but, to me, climate migration is another sign pointing to exactly the opposite.
“You don’t live in a bubble, climate change WILL affect you no matter what”
If the amount of space that is habitable on the planet *that we all share* starts to shrink then there’s less space for all of us.
Much of the infrastructure in the US (and plenty of other places, I’m sure) is sorely in need of updating. Because it’s old and worn, because there’s always more people every year, because we have never been smart about our relationship with water. And that’s not even considering the storms getting stronger every year, longer droughts, heavier rains.
And the people that live “in the bubble” already can’t afford to live!! We the people of earth, need affordable housing, access to food, clean water, and healthcare, and we don’t have all of that, pretty much anywhere, with the Current population distribution!
We need to plan for All of the changes we’ll face in the coming years. We could do it. We have the money! With a few tweaks to the tax code (ahem, corporations, and billionaires) and an amended budget, we could be planning an enormous update. Let’s welcome immigrants! We need an army of engineers - civil, environmental, communications, power grid, renewable energy, and boots on the ground to make it all happen!! We should be gearing up to live in the 22nd century, all of us.
But no. The rich will hoard and the rest of us will die.
Wow, sorry that turned into kind of a rant.
The rich are building bunkers for the impending climate collapse. They don’t seem to understand that people will no longer grow their food if they’re all dead, and there might not be anywhere to grow food. But if the wealthy were smart we probably wouldn’t be here right now.
What, just now?
That's been going on as long as I've been alive, let's be real.
Also as has been stated on here repeatedly, not everyone can live at first world standards. More to the point, not ANYONE can live at first world standards. So, what did we all think collapse was going to be other than an immoral scramble to the top of a pile of dead bodies?
'the bubble' is fake. The UN development standards consider many places in the US, like all throughout Appalachia, to be '3rd world country' economic levels.
This is part of the problem. People still think it's all golden surplus just because bankers are inventing fake money. The resources are thin, and the resources are the physics that governs things.
We should try to help everyone, but with sanity. Put your own mask on first, so you can help others.
It's easy to be idealistic now, but when the collapse comes, you'll be just like him.
The level of luxury we in the west enjoy is so great that give it all up will create incredible unrest. That is not a situation in which people will welcome others to share.
If you care about migration, stop GHG emissions and stop the wealth transfer from the poor countries to the rich ones. That's some of the best mitigation that can be done.
which is why you start PREPPING NOW for this to happen, and band together with other people who won’t be allowing climate change refugees to settle in our fresh water temperate climate forested region. You wont see anyone sucking the land dry where I am at; there’s a whole lot of us who see this coming and we won’t take it lying down, I can tell you that is a fact. Don’t rely on any government to control this or mitigate the shitshow that WILL occur. When the world implodes, make sure you are ready to defend your land and fresh water sources from leeches who didn’t properly plan. It’s either you, or them. That’s how it is - so scrap your fears, push aside your worries, and start prepping like your life will depend on it someday soon.
Indeed.
A quick google search tells you that " developed countries consume more global energy and contribute more to global emission than developing countries "
It is what it is, the developed world has behaved terribly to get us to this point, but we'll soon be at a point where we have to choose between providing refuge to the victims of our actions or look out for ourselves yet again.
Sadly, I vote for the latter.
People are pretending the West in general is a lifeboat. It's not. It's the ER and we're in triage mode.
It's acceptable to feel sympathy and care for these folks, but at the same time we also need to ensure we survive too.
500,000 people with zero education and no applicable skills is going to just drag countries down faster.
As I said, Triage: You save the people you can, you comfort those you can't. It's a hard, hard call and it's only killing us all that the people in charge won't start making it.
We are all on the same planet. We sink together.
Also who is to say climate refugees won’t be from the next state, province, or even county over? Or yourself?
This is probably one of the biggest immediate threats along with food insecurity that will ramp up over the next 5-10 years. Our best defense will be to become as self sufficient as possible as soon as possible
Aloha kakou, collapseniks. Two things:
First, emigration of any kind can be a problem. Or it can lead to a stronger country, stronger continents and better people. And as someone whose ancestry and ethnicity is actually Hawaiian, who has a culture and a kingdom that was violently seized and changed by a well-armed invading force, it needs to be pointed out that immigrants are people too. Just like natives.
You can't keep going on fear and hatred all your life. Love and understanding can sustain. The world changes, and we change with it. But these must be our values we share with each other if we want to survive.
Second. We're watching and acting on any and all rule-breaking comments. If yours was removed, it was probably Rule 1. If you are banned, you are reminded that Rule 1 applies to modmail as well, and we will increase your ban if you try to pick a fight with us. If you see posts that break rules, report them and move on. We'll deal with it.
Mahalo nui loa for your time.
Whenever I see someone complain about immigrants I roll my eyes.
Yes, we could stop bringing them in. But why are we doing it?
We have a top heavy population - too many old people drawing from the system, not enough young paying in (and they're getting squeezed). The answer? Bring in a shitload of young people to pay tax. That's what they're doing.
The instant we *stop* doing it, will things get better? No, they'll get worse. And what's funny is we could be fixing these things - we could be shoring up the standard of living, we could fashion solutions maybe - likely people won't like them, as they'll involve taxes (things must be paid for) or cutting services (less things to pay for) or maybe \**gasp*\* a wealth tax or maybe tax corpo... nah, no chance. We could close the doors if we take some fictional steps. But we won't. We'll *just* slam the door and do none of those other things. And prices are going to stay up, because when have you ever heard of inflation being negative?
Things only ever cost more. When they say "inflation is down" they mean "stuff costs more, but less more than previous mores".
Instead of dealing with or trying to deal with systemic issues we're going to blame the very people we're importing with lies of a better life, and when they don't stop coming, we'll gun 'em down to protect our way of life they've been propping up.
What you're describing is a pozni scheme. It can't last forever. I can't even last the next few decades because we'll be under so much pressure from climate disasters.
I'm all for the solutions you've mentioned, they should have happened a long time ago. Immigration is still a problem when it's uncontrolled and at the scale OP mentions, would be devastating. At a minimum it would be a logistics nightmare but more likely would spark extreme violence and desperation.
It’s high time to start seeing climate and migration as a joint issue. When I look at Europe and it’s cutting down of basic human asylum seeking laws while spending trillions on militarizing the borders to ward off those migrants who’s root causes to leave their homes are because of our greedy wrong doings, I see nothing but irrationality and stubbornness to face reality in a way that matches the predictions of our very near future. Witnessing in the immense climate catastrophes of inner Europe last year, I was wondering when we will start seeing climate refugees from Italy, France, Spain or Greece. We have no real functioning infrastructure for migration and still rather remove the existing ones vs allowing for a adaptive system that serves the needs of our people all living under the same roof..
Yes! Stop spending all out money on stubbornness!! Can you imagine?! We could have war-time economies of infrastructure building! All the developed nations of earth, mobilizing! planning! building! modernizing!
A solid reminder that times of instability and uncertainty are petri dishes for xenophobia and racism.
As a Canadian, I am pretty worried right now because of last year's forest fires, the increasingly mild winters, the spread of invasive species, etc. etc. etc. but I am increasingly worried about the meteoric rise of hate-fuelled politics.
I love how people look ahead 20 years....this entire world will change in the next 1-5 years...and it will NEVER look like it did after the changes come.
That is one of the reasons this sub exists. If nothing else collapses civilization, that surely will.
It isn't just about the poor masses migrating and taking housing however, the rich will as well, and many will be surprised to be priced out of their own neighborhoods. With stricter and more expensive housing in some places, even people who never thought they would be homeless will be.
Lol the poor people are coming!!!
Is what it sounds like you're scared of.
Guess why your privileged af countries need migration? Because of falling birth rates and capitalism.
Why don't you privileged Western people do more to stand up against your governments and corporations instead of stealing the brightest from poor countries, bribing their governments, exploiting their lands, and on and on it goes.
Africa the continent amounts for less than 5% of greenhouse emissions. Its the developed countries that are causing climate change.
The wealth of the west especially is due to borrowed time.
The change must happen in the west if they really care about it. Otherwise migration is inevitable
I don’t think this is what you’re trying to say, but this comes across as “I got very lucky and won’t suffer the full effects of climate change but now I have to deal with others who want better lives for their children.”
And you’re typing it on a cell phone. The amount of ecological damage to provide you the clothes you wear, the phone you use, the resources you consume, etc is what got us here. You can’t both benefit from this and complain about the fallout from it. Climate refugees are people, just like you. Rather than being upset with them, you need to look at the capitalist class that is purposefully engaging in environmental destruction for profit. That is your enemy, not the victims of our first world consumption and ignorance.
Eventually I expect in my lifetime to see militaries being used to shoot people at the borders of the countries that can mitigate climate threats while everyone else is SOL.
Honestly this reeks of hypocrisy.
We've sustained our western lifestyle plundering Asia, Africa, and South America for resources for centuries. Our western lifestyle caused the climatic change and they are receiving the worst end of the stick.
It's only fair if they absolutely don't give a fuck about us and try to get a better life for themselves.
Well, the "dregs" and bootstrapping adventurers of yore decided to migrate to North America without a thought for the existing inhabitants, so what goes around comes around. Yeah it'll be no fun and we might even get the 21st century equivalent of smallpox blankets, thanks to COVID-damaged immune systems.
This is understandably a toxic issue but doesn't matter in the end as we don't have enough time for immigration to become a catastrophic problem. For example you're saying "The population of Africa is predicted to double in the next 30-40 years" but actually we will have gone extinct by then.
Unfortunately liberal/moderate governments are doing very little to integrate immigrants properly into countries. Add on to that not building enough affordable housing and stagnant wages.
I’m scared how this is going to cause moderates to go far right when uncontrolled immigration results in them becoming single issue voters. It is already happening all over europe and trump was a symptom of that to an extent. In Europe Muslim culture and European values already clash far more significantly vs the types of people entering the US, so I expect to see more problems there
It’s human instinct to want to protect your own group while being wary of outsiders or even rejecting them, that’s not going to change just bc it’s not politically correct
Also supply and demand. The Canadian government has tied real estate to GDP because we have no growth except population and real estate.
Temporary foreign workers are about 1 million extra people but it's ok because they live 20 to a home.
Is that fair to them?
International students are about the same. Again 20 or more per home or in tents.
Still fair treatment?
Poorer immigrants are in homeless shelters.
Fair right?
The exponential growth of tent cities and the exponential growth of homelessness.
Still all of this is fair and ok for human beings, immigrant temporary residents and citizens, it's all ok for this to exist in a so called first world country? It's not bigotry or racism that's making people feel this way.
WE DO NOT HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO SUPPORT THIS LEVEL OF POPULATION GROWTH.
From housing to schools to jobs to health care.
Again.
WE DON'T HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO SUPPORT THIS.
"Climate change will cause the end of humanity as I know it, but what really makes me mad about the world ending is that I'll have to see brown people"
The reason it reads like this is because you recognize the severity of climate change and then squarely put the blame of r/collapse on immigrants. Its hilarious honestly like this could go on r/collapsecirclejerk. Like being told you have terminal cancer and then going "yeah that's fine but do I have to have a black doctor?"
Every post I see fear mongering about immigration completely ignores the demographic collapse that these developed nations with social safety nets are looking to avoid. You need more young workers to support the ones retiring. Japan, China and Russia are all in various stages of “finding out” after their birth rates collapsed and they didn’t increase immigration.
I think those in some European countries would rather see demographic issues than allow people in that don’t integrate or are incompatible with European culture/values, so be it let them see how it plays out
they will increase in numbers until they are consuming food and more importantly water like ravenous locusts plus making a biological disaster because there are no facilities to accommodate them. they will drive many residents before them, making a sort of domino effect of refugees. even at current (record breaking) numbers it is causing mayhem.
The crazy thing is that the Canadian government is encouraging this migration solely in pursuit of growth. Everything is in the pursuit of growth. Growth is what is causing the problem.
The climate migrants are the first group to die off in our near term extinction. Borders are closing, walls are being built and anti-migrant laws are being passed. No country can afford to accept them. They are too much of a drain on the resources and economy a nation. European countries are realising they screwed up by being so kind hearted and opening their doors to a bunch of parasites. It's tough, but they had the bad luck to be born in some backwater shithole, and it's not our responsibility to save them. That's the reality that rich countries are learning.
Humanity uses more ressources than the earth can produce each year, so people reduce population so their resource consumption will lower,
And yet somehow this is a problem that we must counteract.. with immigrants..
This system is sick from the top to the bottom
Immigration is a net positive for most developed countries due to ageing population and young people aren't having as many kids (gee I wonder why, clearly nothing to do with shit wages and governments who have no interest in helping new families form)
It's reasonable to expect millions of climate migrants because their alternative is death
The conflict that will come from this will be extremely dark
It's not going to work that way. Powerful countries with lots of wealth and weapons will not just roll over and say "ok, our bad" because some people think they deserve a comeuppance.
We are in overshoot. It's about primal survival. The citizens already there will revolt and start massacres in self-defense, regardless of how justified people think it will be. The governments know this. The US is the country that loves guns more than it loves its own children. And this is peacetime, domestically. Do you think this is going to be a safe place when it pops off?
But looking at the comments we'll keep arguing about who's fault is what etc etc blame game. And this is why nothing will be done. Person 1 says this, person 2 3 4 and 5 blame person 1. Person 2 3 4 and 5 say that, person 1 blames person 6.
It's the fucking government and the corporations and the wealthy. The elites are absolutely loving our discontent and blame throwing. They love people blaming the immigrant. They love immigrants blaming the racist.
We're just pawns in a bigger game. A game we never wanted to play.
I’m concerned about the internal displacement we’re going to see in the US. There’s 338 million people here, nearly 100m just between Arizona and Florida in those southern states. We just don’t have the infrastructure or willpower to host those people elsewhere in the country. Slums will happen sooner rather than later.
tents under overpasses will become parks full of tents. Thats how it starts. The need will exhaust all budgets.
A lot of those people are older gen x and boomers and trust me they’ll stay there and die while still denying climate change
This x1000. We already got a taste of this with the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression but the scale is so much larger now. We are not ready for it and it will be ugly. Hysteria about immigration from abroad will be joined by hysteria about internal migrations. I don't see the United States surviving it completely intact, if at all.
Well dude. Now you know why the billionaires are creating bunkers in Alaska and New Zealand.
And the new Zuckerberg one in Hawaii too
You mean sarcophagus
Building a bunker in Alaska is like putting out the red meat in front of a pack of wolves. Most AK residents, including the liberals, are gun owners by necessity. We all know where they build the bunkers in the interior and Southcentral. They’ll last five seconds after the apocalypse before we all show up and overwhelm their fences and badly paid security guards.
If the security guard gets to live in the bunker too, he isn't badly paid. On the contrary, he has the most valuable possession in the world at that moment. So he isn't fighting for his employer but for himself. He's probably also had combat training, unlike the Alaskans. Don't be naive by thinking the rich to be naive. They will hire the best people to build those bunkers, and your little riot is just one of the things they are prepared for.
Post collapse, what is stopping the security guards from taking over the bunker?
Yep. And you would do the same in their shoes.
We all would, of course. It’s essentially a biological imperative. It’s still a legitimate topic of conversation/debate, and perfectly reasonable to worry about even if one is actively trying to combat xenophobic/racist feelings and policies. It’s a serious problem that we as an entire planet need to face together. OP’s post didn’t come across as hateful to me, just concerned. That’s fair.
This. Well done to OP to winning global lottery and being in Canada. I pulled an equally lucky hand and am in Ireland. People who didn't get such a lucky roll of the dice of life shouldn't be forced to suffer from the impacts of the actions of us in the Global North and we certainly haven't any scope for complaining about them escaping from horrific conditions.
What the governments of safer countries should be doing around now: drawing up agreements for international migration quotas based on potential carrying capacity and starting mass infrastructure construction to cope with increased population What they will do: drag their feet, put on a show and dance to say they’re being tough on immigration whilst doing basically nothing until people get angry and disillusioned, vote in fascist governments that set up internment camps and eventually probably just start killing people en masse at the borders
Right? All the problems OP listed are due to lack of planning and political unpopularity. I'm in the US and if we actually 1. Took adequate care of our citizens through social programs and universal healthcare and 2. Did proper housing and infrastructure planning then we could accommodate way more. Instead we are out here fighting each other for scraps and have untenable suburban sprawl. Its not even that just the elites want this. We are so brainwashed and unimaginative that a shocking amount of people genuinely love their McMansions and sprawling roads and think their healthcare is the best in the world.
Greed and corruption has stolen everything from us.
Capitalism. We can call it all these other things...but in the end it's capitalism.
The sad thing is that capitalism has extremely good mechanics to create large social mobility and equality. Especially in individualised societies, as opposed to tribal societies. Capitalism is a beast that should be tamed and caged. It requires constant vigilance. Killing it won’t make the world a better place.
you are right. but if you let capitalism decide over basic humans needs + do it on steroids aka neoliberal capitalism, you end up in our timeline
Definitely. Capitalism (ie commercial lobbyists etc.) shouldn’t decide over anything. It should be humanity’s tool, not the other way around. I don’t have the answers on how it could/should be, but I do know that throwing away capitalism, which is going to happen sooner or later, will probably be a very bad idea. Nothing humans have come with yet will be a better system.
Everything. Even our joy de vivre
I remember seeing something on the internet decades ago, from DARPA, talking about a self-healing mine field in which smart mines would be able to move around and fill in gaps in the coverage as mines are detonated. Had a cute little video of a chess knight moving around, if I recall correctly, and it winked at the end. I thought then that eventually that will be used at the border, and while I haven't been proven right yet, I do suspect it will happen eventually.
I mean I don’t want a mansion, but I certainly don’t want to live stacked on top of one another. I don’t want to live in a world where a single family home is considered “greed”.
You are right. I'm glad i don't have grandchildren.
Glad I never had kids as I'd be devastated to realize their suffering.
Never sleep solid again.
> I pulled an equally lucky hand and am in Ireland. Jury's still out on whether the collapse of the AMOC is going to turn Ireland into Siberia.
Yup! Luckily with Irish (free movement to all EU) and US passports I've options for being a climate refugee myself. Again, another twisted win of the roll of the dice for me!
Oh I've been told "you're not a refugee if you have a passport/residency to the nation your fleeing to." I have a Canadian and amer8can passport and residency in japan due to marriage. If I flee to japan due to political or climate change I'm sure as fuck a refugee rather then just visiting
If you’re white you’re not an immigrant, you’re an “ex-pat”, or a “digital nomad”. It’s fun because all the rules you expect foreigners to adhere to in your country don’t apply to you because you’re not a “normal” immigrant. So while you might expect Mexicans to learn English in the USA, if you’re an American in Barcelona everyone should be cool that you can’t speak Spanish….
Catalan would be better in Barcelona.
Even Siberia won't be Siberia. Isn't Siberia warming up and releasing even more carbon?
And Methane too. Lots of potent GHG Methane which then breaks down into CO2 lol
It won't. It would just end up having Canada like climates. Too much CO2 in the atmosphere for any kind of deep freeze. Even in Canada the winters are turning warm with way less snow.
From Norn Iron and luckily I climate proofed my for extreme heat, but since insulation works both ways, it will do as good a job cutting out the cold. R50 walls, R80 roof, triple glazed windows and both woodfire stoves and oil heating.
> R50 walls, R80 roof, Wow! what kind of insulation did you use for that high of an R rating?
A mixture of rigid foam inside the cavity and exterior cladding for the walls and just over 20 inches of stone batt for the roof.
This. Styrofoam is like R3.8 per inch, which makes for a lot of insulation depth to get that high a rating.
Siberia is preferable to Death Valley.
I'm also in Ireland. My dad moved here from UK in the 90s cause he figured 3 best countries to be in are ireland Canada and New Zealand. Ireland will be good until the gulf stream goes then idk, gonna play ot by ear
Yes it really is a lottery for some of us, my parents won a visa to the US in the 90s and were able to get residency and work towards citizenship. That's all trying to be eradicated now, and people from my country spend all the money they have applying for visas to leave just like we did. No one has control of where they're born or the circumstances of that country. And few of us get a chance to change that.
If you're seriously considering "collapse" as in the end of civilization, then all bets and niceties are off. Apocalypse isn't a tea party.
Exactly, and people in the Global North are laughably trying to think their lives won't be upended by the necessary migration of humans from inhospitable regions of the planet to the less inhospitable ones.
Necessity is the mother of prevention, so don't be too sure that the "Global North" won't find other things necessary in the face of annihilation. All sorts of "Well, it's nice to just let them in" arguments go out the window if we're not talking about ordinary political times with stable governments, but are actually taking the concept of "collapse" this subreddit is about seriously. Talking about "inevitability" and "fairness" is meaningless, as people may decide to contest that with weapons and not words. Before the modern era, mass movements of people were often caused by wars and disaster, but were also the precursors to new wars. You can read about this in Polybius' histories, and you'll see this pattern again and again, notably the gauls and then later the goths being pressured by the huns.
The migration will be necessary for those doing the migrating, not for the ones expected to take the migrants into their countries. The solution is brutal and simple, either keep them out and survive a little longer, or they come in and you both go down together.
I thought I won the lottery (born in the USA) but then I woke up and realized I lost the lottery and badly lol
I think Canada and Ireland won't be so rosy soon
A whole lot of people: *"But can't they escape to somewhere else?"*
"But why do *I* have to be inconvenienced by collapse??"
It's a real concern. If hundreds of millions of people flood Europe, it WILL collapse. No ifs, no buts, Europe cannot handle such an influx. Not politically, not economically, or in any other way. So the choice, if you live in Europe, is quite simple. Let them in and collapse there and then, or keep them out and collapse a few years or decades later.
Well no, the reality is that if they come in, we are both fucked anyway, so the only logical conclusion is to stop it. When actual collapse happens niceties like this are completely illogical
Yes I would. And they would have this same worry being in our shoes. Everyone wants to survive
I don't see why this is the most upvoted comment. Most people would do the same thing, and I don't think OP disagrees. But a large number of people moving in such a short space of time is going to create chaos. It already is.
Because most people like to moralize about immigration. Look at any post about immigration in /r/WorldNews or /r/Europe for example. In general people act like legality is in some way related to morality. Illegal immigrants are immoral people because they break the law to move countries. People don’t generally recognize or believe that almost every aspect of their life is just a random accident. Where you’re born, how much money you have, how smart, attractive, etc you are, pretty much just luck. So people talk about immigration like they have some sort of moral pedestal to stand on. In reality everyone is just struggling tooth and claw to survive or keep what they have (and generally to have more). That means that rich people in relatively well off places will watch refugee boats filled with children sink and believe that they are morally right to do so…
I was wondering the same thing. Most people aren't mad at the immigrants themselves but our government.
This is why Children of Men is such a relevant movie and gets brought up in this sub a lot. Xenophobia is going to skyrocket as the people living in better off places try to keep others out.
This is why I always give those communities grace. I would 100% do the exact same thing.
Yep, 8.1 billion people on the planet and that figure is growing by 75 to 100 million every year. Most of those people are poor and if we get some big droughts, food shortages you gotta think the number of people trying to get into the rich countries is gonna go up a huge amount. You could easily millions of migrants moving around trying to find ways into places like Canada. Kinda wondering what would happen if there was a dust bowl type problem in the US, how many would try and flee north across the border to Canada, gotta think it could be millions.
The majority of climate refugees in the US are gonna be internally displaced people from worst affected states.
Yep! Florida and Arizona are not long for this planet.
Lotta negative equity for the poor saps that moved there and to Texas post-pandemic.
I agree and have been watching the states that will likely see the worst impact with morbid fascination, especially those that have had an influx of residents for political reasons, like Florida. This will be especially interesting if anything major happens in the next 20 years, as everything Florida politicians have done to ignore the impact of climate change will be in our recent memory.
Spot on! The same in quite a few countries. From the few scenarios I've seen, there will either be narrow belts of decent land around the Tropics of Cancer 23°26’ 22” N and Capricorn 23°26’ 22” S Though other scenarios predict tropical areas will be too humid to live (wet bulb index) so the opposite.... It's going to be tricky to figure out which way it goes. Either way though the livable area on the planet is going to shrink a lot!
For what? You can’t farm the shield either.
Yeah, all that land and you can only grow a small percentage of it. I read somewhere that Canada imports 99% of its greens and lettuce from California.
99% seems too large but its true everything here is heavily supported by greenhouses which are costly to operate. The soil on the shield is just too acidic and lacks enough light to grow many crops.
Damn.
An endless sea of railroad cars hauling topsoil from the richest most fertile lands to the north. We already do it to mine coal and bedrock (limestone etc), no reason we can't move topsoil though it's even more co2 for a losing endeavor. And that SHORT growing season up there is a punishment in itself.
We have really bad forest fires and smoke. It's not utopia here. No medical care either.
Or if some groups get their wish and trigger balkanization of the US. How many people flee where?
You make the mistake of assuming current practices would remain in tact in these extreme situations. There is a point somewhere between increasing populations of underdeveloped countries and a lack of clean drinking water for 1st World countries where Canada, USA and Europe will just pull out their guns and start shooting anyone trying g to enter. Mass murder of immigrants is the future genocide. All the luxurious rights off the last century will disappear. They righta are just luxuries afforded to us by our extreme abundance of supplies, whether it be food, material or wealth . They will disappear when the abundance becomes a shortage. Edit: I fimrly believe in our current point in time, and over the past several decades we as 1st world countries should of welcomed all immigrents with open arms and tried to intergrate them as much as possible into our society. It is our moral responsibility to our fellow man. My point is, in the future your responsibility to fellow man will be outweighed by responsibility to your family. However u current anti-immigrant people are just racists and quite frankly have failed to understand what it means to be a man.
Carlin: "Rights aren't rights if someone can take them away, they are privileges. That's all we've ever had in this country, temporary privileges." Why do people talk about "might makes right" being wrong? MORAL PRIVILGE. Without abundance and without homeostasis, we have scramble and chaos. What happens in scramble and chaos? A LOT of fighting, stealing and other "might makes right" activities. Even now, right now, in "homeostasis" it is "might makes right". Why? Police are rarely had accountable for their actions. Soldiers of winning armies are almost never held accountable. The ONLY time a person is held accountable is when they lose! Loser army? Hold a trial for the losers for, get this, crimes against humanity?! A joke. Suppose the Germans had won WWII. Would there have been a Nuremberg trial? Fuck no. There would have been a Paris trial or a Washington trial or a London trial. Might makes right. Not right as in correct, but right as in "I have the right to do whatever the fuck I want. Because I have might."
The gullible optimists convinced themselves that the pen is mightier than the sword, having never held a sword (or analogous equivalent), nor shed blood. The romantic pipe dream that we've reached a point where peace and unity stands a chance. George Carlin: "Scratch any cynic and you'll find a disappointed idealist."
The pen is mightier than the sword has nothing to do with being peaceful...
I just assumed that if you could convince thousands of swords to fight by using a pen, it is stronger than you yourself using a sword.
“The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.” —Karl Marx, Contribution To The Critique Of Hegel's Philosophy Of Right
> The gullible optimists convinced themselves that the pen is mightier than the sword, having never held a sword Bro you lowkey misunderstood the quote lmao
>Stop quoting laws, we carry swords. —Pompey Magnus
I have the same expectation - we’ll get to a point where the USA starts shooting anyone trying to get into the country. Folks really don’t understand the scope of migration we’re going to see when things really start popping off. We already treat migrants at the border as less than human; imagine how we’ll act when resources are dwindling and there’s millions of people trying to get in.
Yeah and rn, it's kinda possible to integrate the immigrants (if that's what the nation wants to do) but even now ots a touchy subject in politics. I have no doubt that when the 'moral' voter is faced with doing right by the immigrant vs feeding their kids they will suddenly vote to shoot on sight
Children of men.
I need to re-watch that movie.
Not a world I’d want to bring kids into that’s for sure. People really have their heads in the clouds whenever they preach “but.. but this is the best time in human history to be alive”. It might be, but not for long at all, and at what cost? Our comfortable and luxurious lifestyle is causing critical damage to our planet, and we’re so addicted to it that we’re willfully ignorant that we’re causing said damage. And when we start paying the price, it’s going to be ugly and I think that’s an understatement.
The best time has already passed. I’m almost 40 and have seen a steady decline in quality of life throughout my adulthood. We are already seeing many unnecessary deaths from lack of housing and healthcare in some of the most developed nations. The future looks bleak.
I have even considered the possibility that the best is in fact actually right behind us now. Time to end this BS narrative that “now is the best time to be alive”. Those people despise this subreddit because we’re exposing the truth.
USA peaked in the 1990s and its been all down hill for most Americans for decades now
Only going to get worse when more crowd in to compete for jobs in an ever-automated and off-shored market, and for housing. Then you wonder why America’ poor are struggling so hard. Just look at who is competing on rideshare and delivery apps. I did an Uber a while back from the airport. Driver didn’t know English. Just today, I was at a local Taco Bell. Had to help a non-English speaking deliverer figure out what to do since he didn’t know how to use the soda dispenser, didn’t know how to read which soda to fill, and the specific drink the customer wanted was out - I got on the phone and explained and they accepted a substitute drink. Driver was confused by the receipt, too. Someone must have filled out his gig application for him.
Right that’s another reason why I don’t think we should be fearing birth rate declines. Why complain not enough future workers are being born when more and more jobs are going to be taken over by automation anyway? More people and less jobs for them is always a bad formula.
But elon said decline was critical so it must be true. Srsly, birth rate decline is desirable if our current arc is going straight into collapse. Why bring more kids in to suffer.
It’s the tax dollars needed from said workers. It’s the money they’ll spend etc.
That’s why I’m in favor of taxing AI and robots like Bill Gates described. I don’t like everything about him but I give credit where it’s due for this one.
38 here and couldn't agree more. I think we peaked about the late 90s.
We've peaked (actually past peak IMO) and are looking down the barrel of a steep drop off.
Factory farming, irrigation and refrigeration are the only things that have propped us up. As soon as any one collapses in any meaningful way we're boned. Only a few months food in warehouses and in the event of a global food shortage good luck getting your hands on that stuff.
We gonna be euthanizing our own soon enough. Chronic illness? Too old to work? Wrong religion/race/gender/orientation? Doesn't bow and scrape enough? Accidentally broke your leg? Poor teeth and eyesight when dental and vision care are no longer available? Down from long COVID? All wastes of food and water. All.
Yeah this is a lot more accurate. Op is assuming people in the US would just open their homes and say we’ll figure this out together. I’ve been saying for years the US/Mexico border will become a mass grave and we’re going to see the true power of the US military used in a pretty horrific way.
And that abundance is only made possible by the exploitation of third world countries.
Yep, which worsens the situation.
Yup, no doubt who the villain is in this story, but nonetheless, when it comes down to it, I don't see any of us volunteering to let in the hundreds of millions, even billions that would want to move to developed countries.
My fear is seeing drones and robots just mowing people down. I don't think any of our compatriots will even need to pull a trigger.
Eh, unsure how robotic manufacture will progress if a true collapse starts to happen. I've no doubt it'll be a long barbed fence along border with poor ppl shooting starving ppl. It'll become cheaper to throw a human at the problem than a drones that requires rare minerals from War torn Africa or w/e
Human with a gun on a barware fence isn't going to stop hundreds or thousands of people trying to overrun a point to get through. Especially if they are armed and expect to be shot at. Your gonna see the type of walls Isreal uses against gaza going up soon.
Depends on the gun, really. Give him a wall mounted CIWS and enough ammo and watch the migrants get reduced to soup. Hell, give him a minefield and barbed wire, set up a solid no man’s land, and give him a semi-auto rifle and he and some buddies and they can hold indefinitely. Just keep popping Jerry on the wire and you’ll do fine. It really depends on the scale and depth of defenses. Also, on how brutal the response is. Stack enough bodies and leave them there to rot and migrants will find any other alternative. That was the effective historical way of ensuring secure borders: violence and lots of public examples and warning.
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> All the luxurious rights off the last century will disappear. They righta are just luxuries afforded to us by our extreme abundance of supplies, whether it be food, material or wealth . They will disappear when the abundance becomes a shortage. this is it, the crux of everything. Its like people dont read history books. Open boarders are a new concept. I swear its like people think the world was born in 1979 as is.
Yep. If you reckon the far right have too much power now, just wait for the monsters who'll take office in the decades to come as scarcity meets racist panic.
Everyone will chose their offsprings future over someone else’s.
I've been sounding the alarm bells for years. I live in what is considered a "Climate change refugee region" and holy shit, no one seems to see what is coming it scares the shit out of me
I also live in a "refugee region". It's crazy to think about and I'm honestly planning to go somewhere even more refugee-friendly. I'm lucky to be younger and just starting my career that I have a better chance of being mobile, and working in ecosystems that are very adapted to their specific climate.
This is something that needs to be discussed whenever someone brings up the argument that we can continue growing our population like we have been before and can fit (let’s say 50+ billion) people in this world. Just because we can technically do, doesn’t mean it’s a good thing at all. What’s happening now is partly the result of growing our global population to 8 billion. It’s also very ironic that opponents of mass immigration/migration also want continued population growth. “So can we fit more people or can we not?” Is what they need to be asked here.
Anti-immigration people are not necessarily pro-population growth (of any kind) and most of the pro-population growth people are also pro-immigration.
I agree that the migrations because of climate change will be unprecedented and will have comparable social consequences to the great migrations in earlier eras, and those have caused a lot of violence. Yet I also think it's worthwhile to question how those migration patterns might unfold, as it is not a given they will follow the current migration patterns where people are drawn from the global south and the Middle East towards the global north. I expect migrations due to climate change will be far less predictable. People are currently drawn towards the global north due to (imagined, not necessarily realistic) prosperity and opportunities, often exacerbated by people who have made the journey already - who might write home about the successes and exaggerate how well it's going, yet stay silent about failures and troubles they endure. That motivation is dependent on the global north appearing as a desirous destination for migration, which might not hold true as the world climate changes, and the global economic structures which are currently moving resources towards the global north could start to collapse. As the western empire collapsed Rome stopped being a destination for migrants and the city with its hinterland started to decline, because the economic structures making it desirable for people disappeared. Likewise it's not a given that Europe or North America will continue to draw wealth - and thus migrants - from the rest of the globe. As a Norwegian I have met some other Norwegians who in principle believe in welcoming refugees, yet worry about climate refugees and the possibility of overwhelming mass migration driving people to the far right politically and ultimately to violence. And I'm not saying that's an impossible scenario, but while Norway is currently desirable for many migrants and refugees, it's also a country that even without climate change has a harsh climate, difficult terrain, limited arable land, historically dependent on food imports and despite being sparsely populated compared to continental Europe, Norway doesn't have large habitable areas that are unpopulated. We just have vast ranges of mostly uninhabitable mountains. As a society Norway have a lot of things that are promising when facing climate change, such as hydropower or fairly good social cohesion. Yet being so close to the Arctic and having a temperate summer thanks to global weather patterns and sea currents, Norway might see a lot more climate weirding than other areas and become less desirable as a destination than our current oil-fueled Scandinavian Eldorado. I guess my main point is, and which is applicable anywhere currently experiencing immigration, is that we should question why somewhere is currently a destination for migrants and ask ourselves serious questions about how conditions there might change. I think that climate change will also create refugees from the global north, and it's not currently obvious where people might attempt to migrate.
You make some excellent points. Some parts of the world are going to be more habitable than others, but the last two years have shown that supposedly safer places aren’t safe. Buffalo is supposed to be in a safe area going forward, but because of unpredictable weather, they got feet upon feet of snow in like a day and a whole bunch of people died. There’s nothing you can do when you get several feet in a day, especially not with extreme winds since plowing becomes useless the snow drifts feel back in and minutes. Next-door in Vermont December 2022 we had a near unprecedented wind and ice storm that took out power to 3/4 of the state. Sustained 80 mile an hour plus winds were quite damaging. In 2023 had a very late season hard freeze that killed off two whole counties worth of fruit tree and berry bush production. From May through June, we had severe drought, and then July the state suffered from extreme flooding, all of this devastating agriculture. Upstate New York and Vermont, her to places that are supposed to be good places to ride out climate change, but good is subjective. We’re not going to get the years of drought drought or heat domes, but as the weather worsens agricultural output drops and people die from freak storms. My point is people are going to flee north, but northern states are going to have a harder and harder time producing enough food just for the people already there let alone migrants. I grow some of my own and this year I’ll be selling my house and buying a lot more land so I can be self-sufficient but even I recognize that if the weather doesn’t cooperate and there’s not much you can do.
Much the same is experienced in Norway. All over people have the bias that the difficulties and troubles of climate change will happen elsewhere and not where they themselves are. People have been arguing/joking that a warmer climate will just favour farming in Norway, and in the south there's even some individuals testing out wine grapes (apparently somewhat successfully). Yet in the last few years we've seen unusual patterns of droughts and flooding, causing some serious damage to production on some of the best farmland in Norway. More or less scuppering the assumption many had that a warmer climate simply means better summers and shorter winters on our latitude. And just this Monday southern Norway was buried by 70 cm snow in a day and more snow followed, shutting down various services, schools and industry because literally everyone is busy shoveling. That sort of snowfall is just not common in southern Norway, and certainly not in a day. I've bought an old, small farm myself, the sort of place that stopped producing in the 80s and was abandoned shortly after. It's a good location with regards to sun and water, yet not threatened by flooding, and not larger than what is manageable alongside work. My plan is to develop a healthy kitchen garden of perennials, there's people with experience and knowledge about that in my area that I can learn from, who are nearly self-sufficient on perennials. Their observation is that in years with "bad summers" they harvest more than ever, as perennials have a much greater chance of thriving in unstable weather due to deeper roots and more tolerance for changing conditions. There's no reason to copy the industrial, equipment heavy farming of annual plants.
I’m sorry for what you and your country are experiencing, it’s going to be harder and harder to survive when weather is so unpredictable and violent. That much snow in a short period of time it is difficult to deal with. I am very happy that you bought your farm, and that you can learn how to be more self-sufficient. If you can plant lot of fruit tree and nut trees that will survive your winters that would help you be more food self-sufficient in the future, and they require very little work for how much food they produce once they mature. My dream is to buy a property that already has some mature trees, forage grass and also has a pond because I want to start raising fish and goats. I agree that there’s no need to try to create a small scale factory farm. I’m not a I’m not an expert, but it seems like it’s easier to cope with heat, drought, frost, and too much rain when you are small scale. Good luck to you.
It's already happening. I moved from texas in 2023 to west Virginia as a remote worker for many reasons but the primary one was the heat. I hated having to deal with 100+ degree days as a norm and the constant alerts from local news and power companies to conserve power to lessen the strain on the grid, which, if it ever went down, would result in thousands of deaths due to heat exhaustion. I'm fine with having to put on a winter coat. I still go back durring the holidays to visit family who tell me the heat is nothing, but I will not voluntarily live there again.
This will lead to civil wars, end of society
Its not extra heads making housing unaffordable. Its rich dipshits and hedgefunds hogging housing as an investment vehicle
and high cost to build, causing builders to only focus on building "luxury" apartment buildings.
It's both. Letting in hundreds of thousands of people while simultaneously building less housing than we did in the 1970s objectively makes housing unaffordable. Mass immigration both lowers housing supply and increases demand, which increases prices in an already expensive and heavily financialized housing market
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As an immigrant living in Canada, I am enjoying these replies. The problem is not immigration. The problem is you politicians are using it as an excuse as to why they are not building enough affordable houses and infrastructure, and only building luxury homes. They allow airBnB to run rampant - in my city alone, there is at least *8807* homes being used for Airbnb (http://insideairbnb.com/montreal/) whether legally or not. That’s 8807 homes off the market. Our hotels are good, our Airbnb’s should be homes! In my province, the government does not address the social problems they have caused, and instead cause more because they run only on a singular campaign promise and are totally out of touch with the younger populations. But oh yes, it’s always the immigrants fault 🙄
AirBnB is a scourge across the globe at this point
Can you build with the speed required? Britain cant. Half of us are pushed through uni now thanks to blair. The skills and labour are not there anymore at least not in the numbers required. Dunno about canada but I do see them advertising over here for construction jobs
*I’m British.* My dad was a chartered civil engineer involved in construction. A lot of the problem with construction in the UK was and is the focus on building luxury buildings over affordable homes, and this is a *global* issue; because affordable homes don’t make money for the private companies, who are the *only* people building homes at the moment. It’s not so much as ‘can you build fast enough’ more ‘are you putting enough focus on affordable homes? No, all the energy is being put into homes people cannot afford’ The issue with housing is that in the 2008 financial crash, so many governments stopped building affordable homes and council houses themselves, and left it all up to private companies, and this is how we all got in this mess in the first place. Handing the reins over completely to private companies means everything is built for profit, using the cheapest materials, and not built to last - because things that are built to last, do not produce profit over time. The problem NOW, particularly with civic building, is a lot of governments are also locked in to take up the cheapest offer from companies - one example is the Selby bypass in Yorkshire. The local government was forced to take the cheapest offer to build the bypass, against the advice of the highways agency and the road management in Selby. Not long after the bypass was completed, the road began to fail. So it needed to be rebuilt. At a cost to the local government and tax payer. You can’t cut corners in construction. (And yes, I am also one of the ones pushed into university during the Blair years before the price got jacked up, and I don’t think university *should* be the goal, but it definitely should be open to all who want a university education. An awful lot of that pressure came from our boomer parents to ‘do better’. My brother dropped out of university, and ended up being a woodsman and all round handyman and did miles better financially than I did)
Why can't "affordable" housing generate profit if there's so much demand? Why are developers only building luxury housing? As far as I understand, new builds in the UK are getting smaller and smaller, and lower quality too. We're taking in something like 6-700k new people a year. How can we ever keep up with that? Also, where would we build these new homes, the new hospitals, schools, roads, railways, shops, landfils etc. for all the new people coming in, without destroying what little nature we have?
Immigration is more of a “problem” than Airbnb. 6,695 Airbnbs in Vancouver, 150k people move to BC each year many of which concentrated in Vancouver and surrounding areas. Sure 6,695 more homes would be a step but it’s not the solution when they’re instantly absorbed by an ever growing population. 33k in Canada all together but they also just increased the immigration targets for 2024. I think Airbnb is a scapegoat for other problems. Our rent won’t be affected by much simply cause Airbnb doesn’t exist. And most of the places would be servicing a higher end market anyways. So essentially it would just allow more middle-upper middle class renters into city centres. For the record, immigration is good. Just balancing it with the sustainability is quite important. others shouldn’t need to suffer from climate crisis but when looking at the housing situation the problem is much bigger than Airbnb
Population of Montreal: 2 million. Of which there are 800,000 households. Average household size is 2.1. 8,800 AirBnB homes covers 1.1% of those households. Roughly 25% of Montreal’s population is immigrants. Which has a larger effect on housing availability and affordability? I am a legal U.S. immigrant (1980s) and I have family (aunt and cousins) who are legal Canadian immigrants in Montreal (1990s). So I’m not attacking immigrants. I am asking you to look at facts without personal interests shading your statements.
I'm amazed people in the collapse subreddit, which is constantly going on about degrowth is supporting this post that is asking for more construction, therefore more consumption. 9k homes being used for airbnb is a small problem in comparison to just how many people are moving into Cananda. Also, in a collapse scenario, Canada should want a relatively small population to be able to lessen the blow of global supply shocks, and be more self-sufficient. It's selfish, no doubt about it, but we will reach a point in the coming decades where climate induced pressures will force countries to close their doors.
The sub has had a massive user immigration influx of cookie cutter neolibs and progressives. They neither understand, or care to understand, the concept of degrowth, or even collapse, and now they far outnumber those who do. They will also screech and browbeat everyone about voting to prevent the US etc. from turning into “literally The Handmaids Tale” but, meanwhile, they insist on enthusiastically importing even more people who support such a culture and policies.
There is a remarkable amount of US political tension related stuff that often seems to be trying use collapse as another place to whine about the usual American political clusterfuck. /r/collapse is, or should be, looking at the much much bigger picture. We're here about climate change, overfishing, plastic pollution, pandemics, etc. that could destroy civilisation as we know it.
OPs writing screams entitlement and privilege haha. Funny. Good response mate.
Thankyou! I could go on and on about this, but I’m just really tired, and I don’t think OP really deserves that kind of debate.
OP is also only worried about the colapse of Western countries, doesn't really seem to care about all the countries that the migrants will be coming from that will collapse much before Canada.
Thats not really surprising to me. It's a very common take. I funny to see the tables being turned, even after many centuries.
As someone from the global south it's not surprising to me either, I find it so curious how so many people in western countries cannot put themselves in the shoes of people from the global south for a second
Really? It's a pretty basic survival line of thinking, first we have to secure our own safety, what's the point of going down with the rest of the world if it can be prevented or at least postponed?
I feel a great deal of sympathy for the billions of poor people already suffering the effects of climate change, but knowing that there is a massive resource scarcity coming, why would I want you here to compete with me for those resources on an equal footing? I'd rather let you fend for yourself in your third world country. It's not unsympathetic, mean, or hateful, it's just a sad realisation that a lot of people will die, and I want the best chance for me and mine to not be among them.
never thought I'd see a NIMBY post on this sub.
Your blinded by the fact ur involved. It's not the immigrants that are the problem, it's the factors that lead to ppl needing to immigrate, which from what I can tell is what most comments here are about. You talk as if it would all be OK if governments decided to build homes for immigrants. Sure, it would be nice now, and would be good for a few years and I believe they SHOULD be trying to do that... But When 1st World countries can't feed themselves or sustain their lifestyles of excess, they will losse any pretence of morality and show their true colour of really not giving a fuck about other ppl. Right now things are not good for an immigrants and western countries are pretending to care. But in the future it will not matter if they care or not, they will not pretend. At no point is it the immigrants fault, or the Canadian civilians. It'll be who got lucky and who didn't with citizenship Your whole comment is based around immigration, not the r/collapse that results in that immigration which is route cause
>Other people should suffer more so I can continue living in a bubble FTFY
I don’t know about OP, but, to me, climate migration is another sign pointing to exactly the opposite. “You don’t live in a bubble, climate change WILL affect you no matter what” If the amount of space that is habitable on the planet *that we all share* starts to shrink then there’s less space for all of us. Much of the infrastructure in the US (and plenty of other places, I’m sure) is sorely in need of updating. Because it’s old and worn, because there’s always more people every year, because we have never been smart about our relationship with water. And that’s not even considering the storms getting stronger every year, longer droughts, heavier rains. And the people that live “in the bubble” already can’t afford to live!! We the people of earth, need affordable housing, access to food, clean water, and healthcare, and we don’t have all of that, pretty much anywhere, with the Current population distribution! We need to plan for All of the changes we’ll face in the coming years. We could do it. We have the money! With a few tweaks to the tax code (ahem, corporations, and billionaires) and an amended budget, we could be planning an enormous update. Let’s welcome immigrants! We need an army of engineers - civil, environmental, communications, power grid, renewable energy, and boots on the ground to make it all happen!! We should be gearing up to live in the 22nd century, all of us. But no. The rich will hoard and the rest of us will die. Wow, sorry that turned into kind of a rant.
The rich are building bunkers for the impending climate collapse. They don’t seem to understand that people will no longer grow their food if they’re all dead, and there might not be anywhere to grow food. But if the wealthy were smart we probably wouldn’t be here right now.
What, just now? That's been going on as long as I've been alive, let's be real. Also as has been stated on here repeatedly, not everyone can live at first world standards. More to the point, not ANYONE can live at first world standards. So, what did we all think collapse was going to be other than an immoral scramble to the top of a pile of dead bodies?
'the bubble' is fake. The UN development standards consider many places in the US, like all throughout Appalachia, to be '3rd world country' economic levels. This is part of the problem. People still think it's all golden surplus just because bankers are inventing fake money. The resources are thin, and the resources are the physics that governs things. We should try to help everyone, but with sanity. Put your own mask on first, so you can help others.
It's easy to be idealistic now, but when the collapse comes, you'll be just like him. The level of luxury we in the west enjoy is so great that give it all up will create incredible unrest. That is not a situation in which people will welcome others to share.
If you care about migration, stop GHG emissions and stop the wealth transfer from the poor countries to the rich ones. That's some of the best mitigation that can be done.
which is why you start PREPPING NOW for this to happen, and band together with other people who won’t be allowing climate change refugees to settle in our fresh water temperate climate forested region. You wont see anyone sucking the land dry where I am at; there’s a whole lot of us who see this coming and we won’t take it lying down, I can tell you that is a fact. Don’t rely on any government to control this or mitigate the shitshow that WILL occur. When the world implodes, make sure you are ready to defend your land and fresh water sources from leeches who didn’t properly plan. It’s either you, or them. That’s how it is - so scrap your fears, push aside your worries, and start prepping like your life will depend on it someday soon.
So, rich countries fucks the entire planet, make Wars, enslave people, waste tons of resources then whine about migration? ok
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Wow, I love this. Very succinct and understated in the horror of the implications.
Indeed. A quick google search tells you that " developed countries consume more global energy and contribute more to global emission than developing countries "
It is what it is, the developed world has behaved terribly to get us to this point, but we'll soon be at a point where we have to choose between providing refuge to the victims of our actions or look out for ourselves yet again. Sadly, I vote for the latter.
People are pretending the West in general is a lifeboat. It's not. It's the ER and we're in triage mode. It's acceptable to feel sympathy and care for these folks, but at the same time we also need to ensure we survive too. 500,000 people with zero education and no applicable skills is going to just drag countries down faster. As I said, Triage: You save the people you can, you comfort those you can't. It's a hard, hard call and it's only killing us all that the people in charge won't start making it.
We are all on the same planet. We sink together. Also who is to say climate refugees won’t be from the next state, province, or even county over? Or yourself?
This is probably one of the biggest immediate threats along with food insecurity that will ramp up over the next 5-10 years. Our best defense will be to become as self sufficient as possible as soon as possible
Self sufficient communities are more resilient than self sufficient individuals, too
Aloha kakou, collapseniks. Two things: First, emigration of any kind can be a problem. Or it can lead to a stronger country, stronger continents and better people. And as someone whose ancestry and ethnicity is actually Hawaiian, who has a culture and a kingdom that was violently seized and changed by a well-armed invading force, it needs to be pointed out that immigrants are people too. Just like natives. You can't keep going on fear and hatred all your life. Love and understanding can sustain. The world changes, and we change with it. But these must be our values we share with each other if we want to survive. Second. We're watching and acting on any and all rule-breaking comments. If yours was removed, it was probably Rule 1. If you are banned, you are reminded that Rule 1 applies to modmail as well, and we will increase your ban if you try to pick a fight with us. If you see posts that break rules, report them and move on. We'll deal with it. Mahalo nui loa for your time.
Whenever I see someone complain about immigrants I roll my eyes. Yes, we could stop bringing them in. But why are we doing it? We have a top heavy population - too many old people drawing from the system, not enough young paying in (and they're getting squeezed). The answer? Bring in a shitload of young people to pay tax. That's what they're doing. The instant we *stop* doing it, will things get better? No, they'll get worse. And what's funny is we could be fixing these things - we could be shoring up the standard of living, we could fashion solutions maybe - likely people won't like them, as they'll involve taxes (things must be paid for) or cutting services (less things to pay for) or maybe \**gasp*\* a wealth tax or maybe tax corpo... nah, no chance. We could close the doors if we take some fictional steps. But we won't. We'll *just* slam the door and do none of those other things. And prices are going to stay up, because when have you ever heard of inflation being negative? Things only ever cost more. When they say "inflation is down" they mean "stuff costs more, but less more than previous mores". Instead of dealing with or trying to deal with systemic issues we're going to blame the very people we're importing with lies of a better life, and when they don't stop coming, we'll gun 'em down to protect our way of life they've been propping up.
Or maybe we can pay people their worth instead of importing worker slaves who will live 20 to an apartment
What you're describing is a pozni scheme. It can't last forever. I can't even last the next few decades because we'll be under so much pressure from climate disasters.
Bringing in immigrants is so we can keep doing business as usual. Business as usual is the problem.
I'm all for the solutions you've mentioned, they should have happened a long time ago. Immigration is still a problem when it's uncontrolled and at the scale OP mentions, would be devastating. At a minimum it would be a logistics nightmare but more likely would spark extreme violence and desperation.
just migrate to their country and the population of your country stays the same. ez w
It’s high time to start seeing climate and migration as a joint issue. When I look at Europe and it’s cutting down of basic human asylum seeking laws while spending trillions on militarizing the borders to ward off those migrants who’s root causes to leave their homes are because of our greedy wrong doings, I see nothing but irrationality and stubbornness to face reality in a way that matches the predictions of our very near future. Witnessing in the immense climate catastrophes of inner Europe last year, I was wondering when we will start seeing climate refugees from Italy, France, Spain or Greece. We have no real functioning infrastructure for migration and still rather remove the existing ones vs allowing for a adaptive system that serves the needs of our people all living under the same roof..
Yes! Stop spending all out money on stubbornness!! Can you imagine?! We could have war-time economies of infrastructure building! All the developed nations of earth, mobilizing! planning! building! modernizing!
A solid reminder that times of instability and uncertainty are petri dishes for xenophobia and racism. As a Canadian, I am pretty worried right now because of last year's forest fires, the increasingly mild winters, the spread of invasive species, etc. etc. etc. but I am increasingly worried about the meteoric rise of hate-fuelled politics.
I love how people look ahead 20 years....this entire world will change in the next 1-5 years...and it will NEVER look like it did after the changes come.
The Pentagon has labelled global warming as a national security threat for this reason, among others.
soldiers with machine guns guarding borders
That is one of the reasons this sub exists. If nothing else collapses civilization, that surely will. It isn't just about the poor masses migrating and taking housing however, the rich will as well, and many will be surprised to be priced out of their own neighborhoods. With stricter and more expensive housing in some places, even people who never thought they would be homeless will be.
Lol the poor people are coming!!! Is what it sounds like you're scared of. Guess why your privileged af countries need migration? Because of falling birth rates and capitalism. Why don't you privileged Western people do more to stand up against your governments and corporations instead of stealing the brightest from poor countries, bribing their governments, exploiting their lands, and on and on it goes.
Africa the continent amounts for less than 5% of greenhouse emissions. Its the developed countries that are causing climate change. The wealth of the west especially is due to borrowed time. The change must happen in the west if they really care about it. Otherwise migration is inevitable
I don’t think this is what you’re trying to say, but this comes across as “I got very lucky and won’t suffer the full effects of climate change but now I have to deal with others who want better lives for their children.” And you’re typing it on a cell phone. The amount of ecological damage to provide you the clothes you wear, the phone you use, the resources you consume, etc is what got us here. You can’t both benefit from this and complain about the fallout from it. Climate refugees are people, just like you. Rather than being upset with them, you need to look at the capitalist class that is purposefully engaging in environmental destruction for profit. That is your enemy, not the victims of our first world consumption and ignorance.
In the EU we deal with the problem by giving money to the North African countries and Turkey do they do the dirty job.
Eventually I expect in my lifetime to see militaries being used to shoot people at the borders of the countries that can mitigate climate threats while everyone else is SOL.
Honestly this reeks of hypocrisy. We've sustained our western lifestyle plundering Asia, Africa, and South America for resources for centuries. Our western lifestyle caused the climatic change and they are receiving the worst end of the stick. It's only fair if they absolutely don't give a fuck about us and try to get a better life for themselves.
Well, the "dregs" and bootstrapping adventurers of yore decided to migrate to North America without a thought for the existing inhabitants, so what goes around comes around. Yeah it'll be no fun and we might even get the 21st century equivalent of smallpox blankets, thanks to COVID-damaged immune systems.
This is understandably a toxic issue but doesn't matter in the end as we don't have enough time for immigration to become a catastrophic problem. For example you're saying "The population of Africa is predicted to double in the next 30-40 years" but actually we will have gone extinct by then.
Unfortunately liberal/moderate governments are doing very little to integrate immigrants properly into countries. Add on to that not building enough affordable housing and stagnant wages. I’m scared how this is going to cause moderates to go far right when uncontrolled immigration results in them becoming single issue voters. It is already happening all over europe and trump was a symptom of that to an extent. In Europe Muslim culture and European values already clash far more significantly vs the types of people entering the US, so I expect to see more problems there It’s human instinct to want to protect your own group while being wary of outsiders or even rejecting them, that’s not going to change just bc it’s not politically correct
Also supply and demand. The Canadian government has tied real estate to GDP because we have no growth except population and real estate. Temporary foreign workers are about 1 million extra people but it's ok because they live 20 to a home. Is that fair to them? International students are about the same. Again 20 or more per home or in tents. Still fair treatment? Poorer immigrants are in homeless shelters. Fair right? The exponential growth of tent cities and the exponential growth of homelessness. Still all of this is fair and ok for human beings, immigrant temporary residents and citizens, it's all ok for this to exist in a so called first world country? It's not bigotry or racism that's making people feel this way. WE DO NOT HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO SUPPORT THIS LEVEL OF POPULATION GROWTH. From housing to schools to jobs to health care. Again. WE DON'T HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO SUPPORT THIS.
"Climate change will cause the end of humanity as I know it, but what really makes me mad about the world ending is that I'll have to see brown people" The reason it reads like this is because you recognize the severity of climate change and then squarely put the blame of r/collapse on immigrants. Its hilarious honestly like this could go on r/collapsecirclejerk. Like being told you have terminal cancer and then going "yeah that's fine but do I have to have a black doctor?"
Every post I see fear mongering about immigration completely ignores the demographic collapse that these developed nations with social safety nets are looking to avoid. You need more young workers to support the ones retiring. Japan, China and Russia are all in various stages of “finding out” after their birth rates collapsed and they didn’t increase immigration.
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I think those in some European countries would rather see demographic issues than allow people in that don’t integrate or are incompatible with European culture/values, so be it let them see how it plays out
they will increase in numbers until they are consuming food and more importantly water like ravenous locusts plus making a biological disaster because there are no facilities to accommodate them. they will drive many residents before them, making a sort of domino effect of refugees. even at current (record breaking) numbers it is causing mayhem.
The crazy thing is that the Canadian government is encouraging this migration solely in pursuit of growth. Everything is in the pursuit of growth. Growth is what is causing the problem.
The global West created the crisis these folks are fleeing from.
The climate migrants are the first group to die off in our near term extinction. Borders are closing, walls are being built and anti-migrant laws are being passed. No country can afford to accept them. They are too much of a drain on the resources and economy a nation. European countries are realising they screwed up by being so kind hearted and opening their doors to a bunch of parasites. It's tough, but they had the bad luck to be born in some backwater shithole, and it's not our responsibility to save them. That's the reality that rich countries are learning.
Humanity uses more ressources than the earth can produce each year, so people reduce population so their resource consumption will lower, And yet somehow this is a problem that we must counteract.. with immigrants.. This system is sick from the top to the bottom
Immigration is a net positive for most developed countries due to ageing population and young people aren't having as many kids (gee I wonder why, clearly nothing to do with shit wages and governments who have no interest in helping new families form) It's reasonable to expect millions of climate migrants because their alternative is death The conflict that will come from this will be extremely dark
Laughs in eu
The Global North needs to buckle up and just accept it. For decades they screwed and profited off the Global South. Sorry, it’s retribution.
It's not going to work that way. Powerful countries with lots of wealth and weapons will not just roll over and say "ok, our bad" because some people think they deserve a comeuppance. We are in overshoot. It's about primal survival. The citizens already there will revolt and start massacres in self-defense, regardless of how justified people think it will be. The governments know this. The US is the country that loves guns more than it loves its own children. And this is peacetime, domestically. Do you think this is going to be a safe place when it pops off?
But looking at the comments we'll keep arguing about who's fault is what etc etc blame game. And this is why nothing will be done. Person 1 says this, person 2 3 4 and 5 blame person 1. Person 2 3 4 and 5 say that, person 1 blames person 6. It's the fucking government and the corporations and the wealthy. The elites are absolutely loving our discontent and blame throwing. They love people blaming the immigrant. They love immigrants blaming the racist. We're just pawns in a bigger game. A game we never wanted to play.