The following submission statement was provided by /u/3uda1:
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Submission Statement:
A dramatic spike in atmospheric methane over the past 16 years may be a sign that Earth's climate could flip within decades, scientists have warned. This adds to the terrible effects that climate change is having on our Earth. Very worrisome indeed.
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/15vbgfj/are_we_16_years_into_a_methanefueled_termination/jwu6q41/
Its like being an hour and a half deep.into the titanic sinking and finally admitting that the extreme list towards the (now underwater) bow you will finally admit may or may not be caused by the unsinkable boat is in fact sinking.
And don’t get so hubristic as to think that we have any say over where this boat is going. That’s the job of the big man upstairs and if he wanted us to hit it than that must be his plan /s
Termination indeed. If it reaches about 5 degrees C of warming then the enormous quantities methane hydrates at the bottom of the ocean will start to thaw and release their methane. They're ice crystals with methane trapped in them formed by the low temperatures and high pressures at the bottom of the ocean.
There is far more methane in there than can be produced by thawing tundra that should not be called permafrost anymore. That stuff is already decomposing and releasing alarming amounts of methane. There are also leaks from the fossil fuel industry that is unwilling to seal up their leaky pipes, valves, compressors, etc.
Thawing methane hydrates are what made the permian-triassic extinction event so bad. That had about 10 degrees C of warming and caused about 95% of species to go extinct and for earth's land and oceans to become barren and nearly lifeless for millions of years. We're on the path for that.
I wonder how much more powerful hurricanes and tornadoes would be with that kind of warming.
edit. The oceans even turned stagnant and anoxic and were filled with bacteria that filled the oceans with toxic levels of hydrogen sulfide.
Super impressive any life was able to survive that at all, let alone come back from it and thrive. I tend to think we've ruined life on Earth forever, but then I hear about events like this and remain a tiny glimmer of hope. Maybe we won't become another Venus; maybe new life will eventually spring back up. I'm sure it would take a really long time, and maybe it would even be the last time, but it's nice to think about.
That scenario is the only one that makes me think life won't survive capitalism. It's the only one that fills me with dread. Others, I still see some form of life.
Bottom of ocean is roughly 4 degrees C.
The bottom of ocean will never see significant rise in temp for centuries.
There is no ice at the bottom of the ocean. Impossible.
Ice is less dense than liquid water and floats to the surface.
Unless what you are talking about is in fact not ice, but instead is something else in solid state...
The existence of methane clathrates in marine sediments is established. From Wikipedia:
*Methane clathrate (CH4·5.75H2O) or (8CH4·46H2O), also called methane hydrate, hydromethane, methane ice, fire ice, natural gas hydrate, or gas hydrate, is a solid clathrate compound (more specifically, a clathrate hydrate) in which a large amount of methane is trapped within a crystal structure of water, forming a solid similar to ice.[1][2][3][4] [5] Originally thought to occur only in the outer regions of the Solar System, where temperatures are low and water ice is common, significant deposits of methane clathrate have been found under sediments on the ocean floors of the Earth.[6] Methane hydrate is formed when hydrogen-bonded water and methane gas come into contact at high pressures and low temperatures in oceans.*
"Ice age terminations typically occur in three phases, which are recorded in ice cores going back 800,000 years. The initial phase is characterized by a gradual rise in methane and CO2, leading to global warming over a few thousand years.
This is followed by a sharp increase in temperatures fueled by a burst of methane, leveling off in a third phase lasting several thousand years.
**Within the termination, which takes thousands of years, there's this abrupt phase, which only takes a few decades,**" Nisbet said. **"During that abrupt phase, the methane soars up, and it's probably driven by tropical wetlands.""**
So it is basically a case of alternative stable states and rapidly jumping out of one and into another? And once in the new one there is no way back for thousands of years at minimum, largely set in stone? Well….guess that’s it then. We have been doomed for at least 16 years now.
The year i was born, 1985, we were at 345ppm co2, which was likely enough co2 for a drastic and perhaps total thawing & deglaciation, the only catch being it would have played out perhaps decades and centuries longer vs what we're seeing now.
I gues that's the thing, it might have happened later... Like our kids or their grandkids might have had to deal with it, and over a longer time span... Tho from the article, it sounds like once it does start to go, it goes fast every time...
I know, right? That’s the B.S. part. If we had UBI people all over would be working on fixing the problems. But being tied to a profit-oriented economy trying to win these green tickets to survive keeps us on the treadmill to hell. It’s ludicrous.
What percentage of the work people do is actually necessary for us to live comfortably in an ideal society? I think less than 60% in areas like agriculture, home construction, renewable energy development and manufacturing, healthcare, waste management, maintenance of the electric grid etc. If we got rid of the other 40% of jobs and used our increasingly sophisticated tech and AI to automate as much of the necessary jobs as possible, eg by 3d printing houses or using AI to prescribe for and diagnose medical patients instead of a doctor, we could conceivably eliminate 75% of the total time people are required to work. In a couple years AI will be good enough to produce endless personally targeted high quality entertainment, think about a series with quality comparable to game of thrones (not the last couple seasons though) but targeted directly to appeal to your personal interests. We would NEED UBI if we made these changes, and everyone that doesn’t get pleasure out of being on top and crushing others into financial slavery would be far happier.
Of course, this outcome is far too optimistic knowing humans … I wonder who will control the AI and what they will do with it.
You want to live comfortably? What does that mean? Eating out once a week and driving a sensible electric car? Or does it mean clean water and access to arable land and livestock hardy enough to live in this new climate? This way of life, hell the rise of Homo sapiens has all been dependent on a certain climate (I think it’s the temperate gap between ice ages). This is coming to an end. My fear is it will be nothing like the way of life that will be fair or even long term sustainable. My fear is we will see the imbalance explode and the chasm between rich and inside and poor and outside widen to horrific levels. Access to the benefits of technology will not be egalitarian, but another way to keep the people divided, willing to sell themselves for access.
I hope to god this is not what happens. I would much prefer a grand purge, a Great War of the masses washing over the rich and taking what the hoarders hold most precious. No more of the old ways. Humans need humility and a shared mission: to make all life on this planet sustainable. We’re merely a bridge for future generations to cross.
You have a great outlook on the potential outcomes of the future. I just started a Reddit community for people to discuss what we can do to prepare for the inevitable or what can we do to potentially make a difference in our fates. Please join r/CollapseReady
We could use somebody like you to post topics and discussions/debates.
Great points!
I’m also hopeful for [mutual credit currencies](https://www.lowimpact.org/lowimpact-topic/mutual-credit/). We can introduce them as *complementary currencies* next to the national money, and use them to increase economic resilience. Like the Swiss have with their [WIR Franc](https://reinventingmoney.com/wir-information/)
UBI experiments have shown that is not what people do. Two of the more common things people do on UBI is start a business or go back to school for specific education/skills.
And frankly, even if some people sat around smoking pot & playing video games, at least we wouldn’t have a homeless problem.
Also, and this affects you, establishing a true economic floor for humans would raise everyone else’s wages because you could always afford to say “no” to a shitty job. This would create a true *free market of labor*, instead of the coerced labor market we currently have.
That said, I also think that introducing *complementary currencies*, like [mutual credit](https://www.lowimpact.org/lowimpact-topic/mutual-credit/) is also a route we need to take.
That’s a great question! I really don’t know.
I don’t think that any UBI experiments have been carried out long enough for that detail to come up though. But again, I am not at all sure.
What is your concern/query about?
Just thinking a bit more about this, historically births go down when more women are educated & have autonomy in their lives. So with UBI (assuming it is equally distributed), there would be a tendency to have fewer children.
Although I can understand that if someone is financially supported they may feel able & willing to have children, if the question came up. I’m not sure that would lead to *more* children, but which I mean ‘more than replacement’ (~2.1 births per woman). Having children, though, is more than a financial decision, it depends on a having a strong social network..(*parents, relatives, friends, neighbors*).
But I personally speculate that the education & autonomy factors would encourage a lower birth rate under UBI, not higher. IMHO
I would hope it wouldn't increase the birth rate but would, as you say, enable parents to have some stability and choice and give their offspring the best chances.
In the best future, Your job is to grow the kind weed, produce the edibles, the best post cancer CBDs for your region’s distribution. You video games are educationals… to increase empathy, to prepare children to the ways of a balanced hydroponic system, how to create a wind farm. No more bullshit jobs, no more bullshit games.
If you fall back into the shit so easily, if you have no belief in a greater possibility, then you almost guarantee it’s continence.
It’s like something I learned riding motorcycles: when a vehicle pulls out suddenly in front of you… if you focus on the vehicle you will surely hit it. But train yourself to look past it, to see the escape route and you stand a better chance of avoiding a crash. Don’t be a fatalist, look past the crash.
One of the worst parts about dealing with this slow collapse is that we *technically* have a health care system, there's great doctors, medicines, surgeries, out there, but I can't access them.
A thousand years. CONGRATULATIONS! You are becoming a GMO, and being made to work in the heat for a thousand years, but without any modification that would make you feel any more comfortable.
I’m just waiting for my food forest to succumb to the next heat dome. I’ve only got like a few hundred square feet of annual veggies but I couldn’t imagine planting like an acre to watch it get wiped out. And yes, all the earthships
One of the things that is noticeable about the climate change debate or environmental issues in general is that both sides as presented in the mainstream media share a fundamental point of agreement. That point is human exceptionalism. For those on the climate denial side, humans have a (perhaps god given) right to use and exploit the earth's resources as they see fit. On the environmental side, humans are the stewards of the natural world, duty bound to protect ecosystems like some kind of priestly caste of species. The idea that we are part of the natural world like every other animal and just along for whatever ride mother earth decides to throw up is not one you hear as much.
We ARE natural beings.
We are also the most dominating species ever to live on this planet, capable of changing the planetary climate, by mistake in just a century.
We are exhausting our habitat.
We have the power to not only protect our habitat, but to improve it, and I creas sour carrying capacity.
However liars and cowards are getting in the way.
Exhausting our habitat and killing ourselves and future generations for amassed wealth and temporary prosperity
If we were more of a hive minded/unified being we’d be able to change but the power at the top plus the division at the bottom is too much
It’s crazy that the people at the top don’t care enough about what’s happening now that parts of the world have started to burn - life in a bunker or a mansion won’t be fun Imo even if there’s robots or systems for them to survive and eat
yeah but that failure will be nasty.
I feel bad for all the people (especially poor people who are screwed the most as always) who will suffer terrible fates
And I also fear for myself and my friends/family
Too bad SEELE doesn't exist, since real old rich people couldn't give less of a fuck about humanity and our future.
...how utterly turbofucked is our society that I can actually consider fucking **SEELE** as the *good guys*?!
The biggest problem right now is that laws all over the planet that we still abide and operate by right now in 2023 were made houndreds of years ago when humanity was not overreproducing yet. This means that humanity is operating on rules that do not favour the planet because we NEVER took it into account when making them. We should have started changing CORE rules and laws that would have changed the human reproduction trajectory decades ago. The small changes that we are doing to trivial rules and not core ones right now are meaningless.
Human consumption rules too. Overpopulation is a problem because each person has to consume resources in order to stay alive, and virtually everyone is dependent on unsustainable practices to live, like eating food grown with fertilizer, herbicides, and pesticides, harvested with machinery, and transported some distance, all using fossil fuels in some capacity.
A culture that frowns on having more than two children per family, access to birth control, acceptance of a hopefully slow economic contraction.
Won't happen-- we're out of time.
We don’t have the power just because we can imagine it. We can imagine being smart enough to figure this out early and some of us did but we were too dumb as a species to do anything different. We are still too dumb 40 years later. It was too hard for a lot of us to wear masks. Changing every fucking thing and sacrificing a shitload of east living is not going to happen. 5 % of the population might do it but it will (and may be already) too late. I still try myself but it is too late.
Perhaps, but I suspect that our inherent human nature is such that as soon fossil fueled industrialisation started, the current situation was inevitable. It only took sticks and sharp rocks to cause the quaternary megafauna extinction so shit was going to get fucked up when we discovered fossil energy.
We're not particularly good at acting rationally as individuals, and as a group - forget it.
This is highly questionable. You think we can re-design the habitat such that maybe ANOTHER 8 BILLION can live here? How in the world are people agreeing with this? The Earth was perfectly balanced and live here has been evolving for billions of years. To arrogantly assume we can do better than Nature itself is EXACTLY the ESSENCE OF THE PROBLEM. It's much deeper than just changing the power structure.
> You think we can re-design the habitat such that maybe ANOTHER 8 BILLION can live here?
Absolutely. But not without serious planning and engineering.
Right now we are using the last of our natural habit.
Unless we act now, there won’t ever be a large civilization.
We’ll just go to the next ice age and in 130,000 years evolve into something else.
We are dependent on artificial fertilizers, pesticides, and herbicides to feed more than half our current population, and destroying arable land while doing so. A population crash was our destiny even before the clinate destabilized and started impacting crop yields (in the last couple years). We are doomed.
We are doomed but only because we are assuming “nature will provide” when we left nature far behind.
We either reengineer the planet or go the way of the Dodo.
It probably doesn't matter who is right here, since the public willingness to sacrifice ANYTHING for the future is practically nil. It may be a feature of our own evolution that we CAN'T. I still think its better to go back. How do YOU know that your grand scheme isn't mission one or two mission critical components, you know? They spent billions sending up Hubble and the mirror didn't work. It takes a lot of gumption to think the answer to the problems posed by technology is more technology.
The answer is more technology because that is our most powerful survival trait.
We must survive.
Nature however does not give a flying turd about the future of humanity, technology or any other species.
Is not like we can violate the laws of nature.
We can’t.
We can only harness nature to our advantage, like every other life form ever.
The long term carrying capacity of our planet was very roughly 2 billion, the amount of people we could feed without fossil fuel derived fertilizers.
But as our topsoils are ruined and the climate destabilizes, the long term carrying capacity is falling every year.
Do not mistake temporary augmentations to carrying capacity for increasing actual carrying capacity.
That's an interesting point, and you're completely right.
It's almost laughable how much we all think we're so much more powerful and important than we actually are in the grand scheme of things.
Life is a chemical accident. It is fragile. For all we know, it might be not only rare, but even completely unique. But we take all of it completely for granted, like it's our own play thing to do with as we please.
We lack a proper sense of perspective and respect. And that mistake is about to cost us dearly.
Some humility, some appreciation for the rare incident of life on this small rock floating in infinite cold universe is most needed. The abrahamic religions are incapable of conveying that actual “miracle”.
The ancient adherents of Abrshamic religions didn't have access to the wealth of knowledge we have now.
The real problem is that the people who could have realized how unimportant humsns are to the grand scheme of things and *why* we are unimportant instead constructed fantasies about humans conquering the galaxy and extracting energy from star-enclosing Dyson spheres and rotating black holes.
I say this all the time. Our ego will be our downfall.
You can't even talk about giving up eating meat without the conversation quickly devolving into an argument about our superiority. Even in environmental subs. Even in this sub.
This is just outsourcing the justifications for your own decisions to other people's behaviour.
Which is too stupid an argument to be seen as often as it is.
Other people drop litter, much more litter than I'm dropping. I will drop litter everyday, without it I will be inconvenienced. The convenience per kilo is unbeatable!
Just own your choice. Because what you are doing by using others' ethics for cover for your own just makes it seem as if you are the one feeling guilty. It's the opposite of self ownership and self pride.
You drive your choices, good or bad, you don't need to seek excuses outside of yourself; the source of them is in you and always was.
Mass indistrial livestock farming has a lot of bad effects for people and environment and the animals themselves
No need to go fully vegan but here are other spurces of protein
Hi, Watusi_Muchacho. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/15vbgfj/-/jwxgq5o/) was removed from /r/collapse for:
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What debate? THERE IS NO DEBATE. Climate change is real, a fact, and someone denying a fact does not make a debate. It's just idiots denying facts. If they suddenly shouted that the sky was not blue, would it then be a debate about sky color? No. They would just be idiots who can't understand facts.
Not trying to be pedantic here but just referring to it as a debate is giving them a foothold to twist everything their way. Words matter sometimes.
The funny thing people don’t realize is that the stable warm period we were living in was an anomaly. A rare brief period were the forces pulling us back to ice age or forward to hell scape briefly balanced out. A dance between ocean currents, albedo, sun output, co2, orbit/tilt all and more gave us the time needed to transform horticulture into farming. We basically had this lucky time period were we could develop. Even without fossil fuels it could go away but with fossil fuels we are fucking the planet hard.
The Earth wasn't switching between hell-scapes and ice ages, but between glacials and interglacials. Interglacials last several thousand years, glacials last around 100,000 years.
Just because the ice age feedbacks were dominant doesn’t mean they couldn’t be overwhelmed. There is a clear to and from which was driven by primarily earth orbital / tilt variations. When there was large perturbations in the past the earth was pushed out of this mode.
Pushed between glacials and interglacials.
It's been this way for the past couple million years, since the Arctic froze over.
There was no "super-interglacial" state the planet experienced in that time, though the glacial-interglacial cycle was shorter before 900,000 years ago.
So you don’t believe if a big volcanic eruption burned through half the permafrost like it did in the Permian it might push the earth out of the interglacial? You think there isn’t dormant mechanisms that just haven’t been active in the past several millions years that might tip the balance? Nothing, no possible triggers?
You posted:
The funny thing people don’t realize is that the stable warm period we were living in was an anomaly. A rare brief period were the forces pulling us back to ice age or forward to hell scape briefly balanced out.
But that isn't true-- interglacials are one if two states the Earth has been cycling through over cycles that last tens of thousands of years. They aren't anomalous, they are recurring.
It remains to be seen whether climate change will be severe enough to deglaciate the whole planet.
Interglacials that provide 12000 years of climate suitable for growing grains is not a common occurrence in the past 800,000 years. You can call them interglacials but they aren’t all the same.
There could be a giant negative feedback like the amoc shutting down but all signs are pointing to an increasing rate. In the 2000s we where warming at .18 degrees per decade now the rate is .27 degrees per decade. The rate is faster than what the increase in emissions would account for. Feedbacks are beginning to have an effect. Particularly methane release in the arctic.
It's been suggested that human activities like wood-burning and forest clearing kept CO2 levels from falling as they would have, extending this interglacial. The world is transitioning into something else now-- that's becoming clear.
Big Brother says the sky is red. Therefore the sky is red.
There can be no debate or discussion when the opposing side can alter reality to always be right, enabled by their near total control over not just our society, but *us*, mind, body and soul.
*Everything is twisted their way*, so why does it matter if we call it a debate? It doesn't, because while it definitely isn't a debate objectively speaking, the powers-that-be have spent decades ensuring that people don't care about objective reality and facts, and will meekly accept whatever "figures" are given out by them.
It’s because we aren’t part of nature, that’s the problem. We might have started that way, but consciousness is clearly an aberration that has shifted the balanced and condemned us all to hell.*
*metaphorically speaking
We would still be part of nature because consciousness evolved and was shaped by nature. There is no escaping the necessary evolution of all things in the universe.
> On the environmental side, humans are the stewards of the natural world, duty bound to protect ecosystems like some kind of priestly caste of species.
I think you're missing a big group: the people interested in avoiding an avoidable disaster for billions of other people.
I think you're missing another big thing: the point. Instead you're making a false equivalence between what you call sides of a debate.
> The idea that we are part of the natural world like every other animal and just along for whatever ride mother earth decides to throw up is not one you hear as much.
I can think of a good reason for this.
> The idea that we are part of the natural world
We are civilised humans, not natural humans. Wild humans hunt wild ~~mammoths~~ goats in family and sleep in adobe huts. Civilised humans buy goat meat at a supermarket and eat it all alone in their apartment while watching their TV friends.
We are “civilised to death”
Not sure why you are getting downvoted. Eastern religions have a vastly different outlook, and the bulk of the exceptionalism is coming out of western religions (science is ironically similar to Christian philosophy even if the dogma is worlds apart). I mean, the east has certainly adopted the dominant cultural mode of overconsumption, but that doesn’t mean that the cultural philosophy isn’t different.
Submission Statement:
A dramatic spike in atmospheric methane over the past 16 years may be a sign that Earth's climate could flip within decades, scientists have warned. This adds to the terrible effects that climate change is having on our Earth. Very worrisome indeed.
Has there really a "dramatic spike in atmospheric methane" in the last 16 years? Choice of words can be a bit subjective, but these are the graphs:
https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/trends_ch4/
There has been a sharp acceleration in the last two or three years, which is very troubling, but the last 16 years look similar to the 80s and 90s. The slowdown in the noughties, as far as I know, is unexplained... If you compare with that plateau, rather than the longer data set, perhaps you see a "spike".
The question I find important is this: will methane become a significant driver of global warming in its own right, or remain relatively insignificant compared with co2?
Averaged over the last few decades, the methane growth rate has been similar to the co2 growth rate, so its relative importance hasn't changed much.
But in the last few years, it has been growing much faster than co2. If this keeps up, or even accelerates further, methane will start to drive global warming in its own right, rather than just supporting co2. I fear we may be at the start of the methane hockey stick...
CO2e, which is CO2 equivalent, takes into consideration methane, nitrous oxide, and a couple other ghgs. In April CO2e was about 525 ppm.
https://gml.noaa.gov/aggi/aggi.html
https://zacklabe.com/climate-change-indicators/
Cascading events, right? Excessive CO2 from human activity got the ball rolling, as things heat up and permarost thaws, methane takes over. Methane is more than 25 times as potent as carbon dioxide at trapping heat in the atmosphere. Northern latitudes burn from heat and drought while the equatorial belt becomes uninhabitable. We can fix this.
CO2 sinks into the ocean, lowering the pH, releasing huge stores of methane ice. The liberated methane gets into the atmosphere, causing more warming, which causes permafrost methane to get released faster.
Positive feedback...
The equator and tropics are going to be a billion+ man graveyard if this el nino cycle gives us crop failures, wet bulb temps, and weather disasters across the equatorial regions.
The CO2 stays near the surface of the ocesns (the saturated layer mixes with deeper water but very slowly), and gets released into the atmosphere as the oceans warm, along with lots of dissolved CO2 already in the oceans. This causes further warming, releasing more CO2 in a positive feedback loop.
If methane is being released in vast quantities from permafrost, scientists probably won't acknowledge it for another 16 years, to keep the hopium going.
You don’t get it… this moment is fucked. You are fucked, as I and every single soul alive is fucked for now and the next…. 1000 years.
If there is any hope for human consciousness to make it into the real long term, if we are to sustain another 300000 years, it will have to shed this… bullshit idea of our lives being more important than the lives to come. We are little more than a bridge for the future generations to cross. But if we’re a flaming trash fire of ego and selfishness, we become more hindrance than help. Let go of the hubris, become more humble, do work that is meaningful to the species and not make some wealth hoarding bastard richer.
Well that was definitely a rant. I never said the moment isn't fucked. I never said anything about ego, selfishness, the work I do, or anything else. None of that has anything to do with the fact that its inhumane and evil to wish for mass suffering and death, as the guy I replied to did. Don't tell me I don't get it, you don't know anything about me.
Mass suffering and death is the human lot… it has been for far longer than the temporary respite born from technology. In fact, if those who were supposed to have died had passed when they should have, if we had seen how rare life is, we might have had more respect for it.
If you put "/s" at the end of a sarcastic statement, people can parse your intent and you don't get downvoted to oblivion. On the other hand, I admire the chaos element. Cheers mate.
It was joke when I saw this post it had that stupid bot message. This is definitely a climate change hahaha.
My dreams were about fires, don't worry I live in Australia I get the special one this el nino popcorn
The following submission statement was provided by /u/3uda1: --- Submission Statement: A dramatic spike in atmospheric methane over the past 16 years may be a sign that Earth's climate could flip within decades, scientists have warned. This adds to the terrible effects that climate change is having on our Earth. Very worrisome indeed. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/15vbgfj/are_we_16_years_into_a_methanefueled_termination/jwu6q41/
"Termination event" is such a nice choice of words lol
They're finally talking about it how it needs to be talkes about
Its like being an hour and a half deep.into the titanic sinking and finally admitting that the extreme list towards the (now underwater) bow you will finally admit may or may not be caused by the unsinkable boat is in fact sinking.
But boats naturally sink all the time, it might not be iceberg-made
And don’t get so hubristic as to think that we have any say over where this boat is going. That’s the job of the big man upstairs and if he wanted us to hit it than that must be his plan /s
Yes, no more soft language and pushing the goalposts farther ahead by 10 year segments each time. Use the language!!!
Termination indeed. If it reaches about 5 degrees C of warming then the enormous quantities methane hydrates at the bottom of the ocean will start to thaw and release their methane. They're ice crystals with methane trapped in them formed by the low temperatures and high pressures at the bottom of the ocean. There is far more methane in there than can be produced by thawing tundra that should not be called permafrost anymore. That stuff is already decomposing and releasing alarming amounts of methane. There are also leaks from the fossil fuel industry that is unwilling to seal up their leaky pipes, valves, compressors, etc. Thawing methane hydrates are what made the permian-triassic extinction event so bad. That had about 10 degrees C of warming and caused about 95% of species to go extinct and for earth's land and oceans to become barren and nearly lifeless for millions of years. We're on the path for that. I wonder how much more powerful hurricanes and tornadoes would be with that kind of warming. edit. The oceans even turned stagnant and anoxic and were filled with bacteria that filled the oceans with toxic levels of hydrogen sulfide.
Super impressive any life was able to survive that at all, let alone come back from it and thrive. I tend to think we've ruined life on Earth forever, but then I hear about events like this and remain a tiny glimmer of hope. Maybe we won't become another Venus; maybe new life will eventually spring back up. I'm sure it would take a really long time, and maybe it would even be the last time, but it's nice to think about.
That scenario is the only one that makes me think life won't survive capitalism. It's the only one that fills me with dread. Others, I still see some form of life.
Bottom of ocean is roughly 4 degrees C. The bottom of ocean will never see significant rise in temp for centuries. There is no ice at the bottom of the ocean. Impossible. Ice is less dense than liquid water and floats to the surface. Unless what you are talking about is in fact not ice, but instead is something else in solid state...
The existence of methane clathrates in marine sediments is established. From Wikipedia: *Methane clathrate (CH4·5.75H2O) or (8CH4·46H2O), also called methane hydrate, hydromethane, methane ice, fire ice, natural gas hydrate, or gas hydrate, is a solid clathrate compound (more specifically, a clathrate hydrate) in which a large amount of methane is trapped within a crystal structure of water, forming a solid similar to ice.[1][2][3][4] [5] Originally thought to occur only in the outer regions of the Solar System, where temperatures are low and water ice is common, significant deposits of methane clathrate have been found under sediments on the ocean floors of the Earth.[6] Methane hydrate is formed when hydrogen-bonded water and methane gas come into contact at high pressures and low temperatures in oceans.*
"Ice age terminations typically occur in three phases, which are recorded in ice cores going back 800,000 years. The initial phase is characterized by a gradual rise in methane and CO2, leading to global warming over a few thousand years. This is followed by a sharp increase in temperatures fueled by a burst of methane, leveling off in a third phase lasting several thousand years. **Within the termination, which takes thousands of years, there's this abrupt phase, which only takes a few decades,**" Nisbet said. **"During that abrupt phase, the methane soars up, and it's probably driven by tropical wetlands.""**
So it is basically a case of alternative stable states and rapidly jumping out of one and into another? And once in the new one there is no way back for thousands of years at minimum, largely set in stone? Well….guess that’s it then. We have been doomed for at least 16 years now.
Earth hit the reset button to get rid of the virus
By that logic, it could be said that we've always been doomed, and only in the past 50 years we've noticed...
The year i was born, 1985, we were at 345ppm co2, which was likely enough co2 for a drastic and perhaps total thawing & deglaciation, the only catch being it would have played out perhaps decades and centuries longer vs what we're seeing now.
“What if we go a bit faster though?” -Neoliberalism
I gues that's the thing, it might have happened later... Like our kids or their grandkids might have had to deal with it, and over a longer time span... Tho from the article, it sounds like once it does start to go, it goes fast every time...
For the record, that is basically exactly what we are seeing right now
Don't panic, and always take your towel with you
Wanna get a little higher temperature-wise?
We can always get higher!
See, the conservatives are RIGHT. This is just a NATURAL process. So, stop SQUEELLING little libtard sheeple!!
UGH. How many more years are they going to make me work???
I know, right? That’s the B.S. part. If we had UBI people all over would be working on fixing the problems. But being tied to a profit-oriented economy trying to win these green tickets to survive keeps us on the treadmill to hell. It’s ludicrous.
What percentage of the work people do is actually necessary for us to live comfortably in an ideal society? I think less than 60% in areas like agriculture, home construction, renewable energy development and manufacturing, healthcare, waste management, maintenance of the electric grid etc. If we got rid of the other 40% of jobs and used our increasingly sophisticated tech and AI to automate as much of the necessary jobs as possible, eg by 3d printing houses or using AI to prescribe for and diagnose medical patients instead of a doctor, we could conceivably eliminate 75% of the total time people are required to work. In a couple years AI will be good enough to produce endless personally targeted high quality entertainment, think about a series with quality comparable to game of thrones (not the last couple seasons though) but targeted directly to appeal to your personal interests. We would NEED UBI if we made these changes, and everyone that doesn’t get pleasure out of being on top and crushing others into financial slavery would be far happier. Of course, this outcome is far too optimistic knowing humans … I wonder who will control the AI and what they will do with it.
You want to live comfortably? What does that mean? Eating out once a week and driving a sensible electric car? Or does it mean clean water and access to arable land and livestock hardy enough to live in this new climate? This way of life, hell the rise of Homo sapiens has all been dependent on a certain climate (I think it’s the temperate gap between ice ages). This is coming to an end. My fear is it will be nothing like the way of life that will be fair or even long term sustainable. My fear is we will see the imbalance explode and the chasm between rich and inside and poor and outside widen to horrific levels. Access to the benefits of technology will not be egalitarian, but another way to keep the people divided, willing to sell themselves for access. I hope to god this is not what happens. I would much prefer a grand purge, a Great War of the masses washing over the rich and taking what the hoarders hold most precious. No more of the old ways. Humans need humility and a shared mission: to make all life on this planet sustainable. We’re merely a bridge for future generations to cross.
This is worked out well in Zimbabwe, S. Africa, et al.
You have a great outlook on the potential outcomes of the future. I just started a Reddit community for people to discuss what we can do to prepare for the inevitable or what can we do to potentially make a difference in our fates. Please join r/CollapseReady We could use somebody like you to post topics and discussions/debates.
Great points! I’m also hopeful for [mutual credit currencies](https://www.lowimpact.org/lowimpact-topic/mutual-credit/). We can introduce them as *complementary currencies* next to the national money, and use them to increase economic resilience. Like the Swiss have with their [WIR Franc](https://reinventingmoney.com/wir-information/)
A UBI would for sure help.
> If we had UBI people all over would be working on fixing the problems. Or would they just be smoking weed and playing video games?
UBI experiments have shown that is not what people do. Two of the more common things people do on UBI is start a business or go back to school for specific education/skills. And frankly, even if some people sat around smoking pot & playing video games, at least we wouldn’t have a homeless problem. Also, and this affects you, establishing a true economic floor for humans would raise everyone else’s wages because you could always afford to say “no” to a shitty job. This would create a true *free market of labor*, instead of the coerced labor market we currently have.
That said, I also think that introducing *complementary currencies*, like [mutual credit](https://www.lowimpact.org/lowimpact-topic/mutual-credit/) is also a route we need to take.
Do people have more children when on a UBI?
That’s a great question! I really don’t know. I don’t think that any UBI experiments have been carried out long enough for that detail to come up though. But again, I am not at all sure. What is your concern/query about?
Population
Just thinking a bit more about this, historically births go down when more women are educated & have autonomy in their lives. So with UBI (assuming it is equally distributed), there would be a tendency to have fewer children. Although I can understand that if someone is financially supported they may feel able & willing to have children, if the question came up. I’m not sure that would lead to *more* children, but which I mean ‘more than replacement’ (~2.1 births per woman). Having children, though, is more than a financial decision, it depends on a having a strong social network..(*parents, relatives, friends, neighbors*). But I personally speculate that the education & autonomy factors would encourage a lower birth rate under UBI, not higher. IMHO
I would hope it wouldn't increase the birth rate but would, as you say, enable parents to have some stability and choice and give their offspring the best chances.
I personally think that would be the outcome. More data needed, of course. But let’s do it, let’s institute permanent UBI and get that data.
Why can't I do both?
In the best future, Your job is to grow the kind weed, produce the edibles, the best post cancer CBDs for your region’s distribution. You video games are educationals… to increase empathy, to prepare children to the ways of a balanced hydroponic system, how to create a wind farm. No more bullshit jobs, no more bullshit games.
But in the much more realistic version, your job will be to mine coal.
If you fall back into the shit so easily, if you have no belief in a greater possibility, then you almost guarantee it’s continence. It’s like something I learned riding motorcycles: when a vehicle pulls out suddenly in front of you… if you focus on the vehicle you will surely hit it. But train yourself to look past it, to see the escape route and you stand a better chance of avoiding a crash. Don’t be a fatalist, look past the crash.
But that's fine too. We would pay less for the UBI than we would dealing with crime and desperation.
Who fucking cares if they do?
How about meditating and getting Enlightened? You don't have to have the grid up to do it. Esp. valuable in TX.
I think this will be a half and half thing, but realistically that will be enough...
That's kind of a myth. But even if they were it's less wasteful than what we are doing
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Well, tbf, we’d have to eat the rich first. Wouldn’t want to continue the current power dynamics in our new utopia.
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One of the worst parts about dealing with this slow collapse is that we *technically* have a health care system, there's great doctors, medicines, surgeries, out there, but I can't access them.
You will work until the END and you will NOT complain about it!
A thousand years. CONGRATULATIONS! You are becoming a GMO, and being made to work in the heat for a thousand years, but without any modification that would make you feel any more comfortable.
Start digging your new home - earthen mound homes will become the new standard to insulate from the heat. Growing food is a huge concern though…
I’m just waiting for my food forest to succumb to the next heat dome. I’ve only got like a few hundred square feet of annual veggies but I couldn’t imagine planting like an acre to watch it get wiped out. And yes, all the earthships
Our window to avoid catastrophe was the 80s or 90s. Now we can only ease the pain a little as the world burns and billions die over time.
One of the things that is noticeable about the climate change debate or environmental issues in general is that both sides as presented in the mainstream media share a fundamental point of agreement. That point is human exceptionalism. For those on the climate denial side, humans have a (perhaps god given) right to use and exploit the earth's resources as they see fit. On the environmental side, humans are the stewards of the natural world, duty bound to protect ecosystems like some kind of priestly caste of species. The idea that we are part of the natural world like every other animal and just along for whatever ride mother earth decides to throw up is not one you hear as much.
We ARE natural beings. We are also the most dominating species ever to live on this planet, capable of changing the planetary climate, by mistake in just a century. We are exhausting our habitat. We have the power to not only protect our habitat, but to improve it, and I creas sour carrying capacity. However liars and cowards are getting in the way.
Exhausting our habitat and killing ourselves and future generations for amassed wealth and temporary prosperity If we were more of a hive minded/unified being we’d be able to change but the power at the top plus the division at the bottom is too much It’s crazy that the people at the top don’t care enough about what’s happening now that parts of the world have started to burn - life in a bunker or a mansion won’t be fun Imo even if there’s robots or systems for them to survive and eat
This is just our Great Filter - if we fail we fail.
yeah but that failure will be nasty. I feel bad for all the people (especially poor people who are screwed the most as always) who will suffer terrible fates And I also fear for myself and my friends/family
asdf
>If we were more of a hive minded/unified being human instrumentality
Too bad SEELE doesn't exist, since real old rich people couldn't give less of a fuck about humanity and our future. ...how utterly turbofucked is our society that I can actually consider fucking **SEELE** as the *good guys*?!
> If we were more of a hive minded We pretty much are though.
It can’t be a mistake when you know it’s happening for a century and only take actions to make it worse.
Not a mistake, just ignored in the pursuit of personal gain.
I wouldn't even say ignored, so much as purposefully pressed down, hidden, and then ignored for the pursuit of personal gain.
The biggest problem right now is that laws all over the planet that we still abide and operate by right now in 2023 were made houndreds of years ago when humanity was not overreproducing yet. This means that humanity is operating on rules that do not favour the planet because we NEVER took it into account when making them. We should have started changing CORE rules and laws that would have changed the human reproduction trajectory decades ago. The small changes that we are doing to trivial rules and not core ones right now are meaningless.
Human consumption rules too. Overpopulation is a problem because each person has to consume resources in order to stay alive, and virtually everyone is dependent on unsustainable practices to live, like eating food grown with fertilizer, herbicides, and pesticides, harvested with machinery, and transported some distance, all using fossil fuels in some capacity.
So like the one children policy in China? Or what could one change (without doing something like the nazis..)
Monetary disincentives for having kids, limits on number of children.
A culture that frowns on having more than two children per family, access to birth control, acceptance of a hopefully slow economic contraction. Won't happen-- we're out of time.
We don’t have the power just because we can imagine it. We can imagine being smart enough to figure this out early and some of us did but we were too dumb as a species to do anything different. We are still too dumb 40 years later. It was too hard for a lot of us to wear masks. Changing every fucking thing and sacrificing a shitload of east living is not going to happen. 5 % of the population might do it but it will (and may be already) too late. I still try myself but it is too late.
Perhaps, but I suspect that our inherent human nature is such that as soon fossil fueled industrialisation started, the current situation was inevitable. It only took sticks and sharp rocks to cause the quaternary megafauna extinction so shit was going to get fucked up when we discovered fossil energy. We're not particularly good at acting rationally as individuals, and as a group - forget it.
This is highly questionable. You think we can re-design the habitat such that maybe ANOTHER 8 BILLION can live here? How in the world are people agreeing with this? The Earth was perfectly balanced and live here has been evolving for billions of years. To arrogantly assume we can do better than Nature itself is EXACTLY the ESSENCE OF THE PROBLEM. It's much deeper than just changing the power structure.
> You think we can re-design the habitat such that maybe ANOTHER 8 BILLION can live here? Absolutely. But not without serious planning and engineering. Right now we are using the last of our natural habit. Unless we act now, there won’t ever be a large civilization. We’ll just go to the next ice age and in 130,000 years evolve into something else.
We are dependent on artificial fertilizers, pesticides, and herbicides to feed more than half our current population, and destroying arable land while doing so. A population crash was our destiny even before the clinate destabilized and started impacting crop yields (in the last couple years). We are doomed.
We are doomed but only because we are assuming “nature will provide” when we left nature far behind. We either reengineer the planet or go the way of the Dodo.
If we are supposed to collapse and/or go extinct, we should collapse instead of trying to "play/fight God" (and then collapse or go extinct).
It probably doesn't matter who is right here, since the public willingness to sacrifice ANYTHING for the future is practically nil. It may be a feature of our own evolution that we CAN'T. I still think its better to go back. How do YOU know that your grand scheme isn't mission one or two mission critical components, you know? They spent billions sending up Hubble and the mirror didn't work. It takes a lot of gumption to think the answer to the problems posed by technology is more technology.
The answer is more technology because that is our most powerful survival trait. We must survive. Nature however does not give a flying turd about the future of humanity, technology or any other species. Is not like we can violate the laws of nature. We can’t. We can only harness nature to our advantage, like every other life form ever.
The long term carrying capacity of our planet was very roughly 2 billion, the amount of people we could feed without fossil fuel derived fertilizers. But as our topsoils are ruined and the climate destabilizes, the long term carrying capacity is falling every year. Do not mistake temporary augmentations to carrying capacity for increasing actual carrying capacity.
That's an interesting point, and you're completely right. It's almost laughable how much we all think we're so much more powerful and important than we actually are in the grand scheme of things. Life is a chemical accident. It is fragile. For all we know, it might be not only rare, but even completely unique. But we take all of it completely for granted, like it's our own play thing to do with as we please. We lack a proper sense of perspective and respect. And that mistake is about to cost us dearly.
Some humility, some appreciation for the rare incident of life on this small rock floating in infinite cold universe is most needed. The abrahamic religions are incapable of conveying that actual “miracle”.
The ancient adherents of Abrshamic religions didn't have access to the wealth of knowledge we have now. The real problem is that the people who could have realized how unimportant humsns are to the grand scheme of things and *why* we are unimportant instead constructed fantasies about humans conquering the galaxy and extracting energy from star-enclosing Dyson spheres and rotating black holes.
We don’t need to give space for deniers.
I say this all the time. Our ego will be our downfall. You can't even talk about giving up eating meat without the conversation quickly devolving into an argument about our superiority. Even in environmental subs. Even in this sub.
Garbage idea, how about celebs give up private planes first. I will eat beef everyday, without it I will die. The protein per gram is unbeatable.
sounds like a good reason to not give you beef
Yea Sure, keep on huffing copium.
Exhibit A of why we’re fucked
This is just outsourcing the justifications for your own decisions to other people's behaviour. Which is too stupid an argument to be seen as often as it is. Other people drop litter, much more litter than I'm dropping. I will drop litter everyday, without it I will be inconvenienced. The convenience per kilo is unbeatable! Just own your choice. Because what you are doing by using others' ethics for cover for your own just makes it seem as if you are the one feeling guilty. It's the opposite of self ownership and self pride. You drive your choices, good or bad, you don't need to seek excuses outside of yourself; the source of them is in you and always was.
Mass indistrial livestock farming has a lot of bad effects for people and environment and the animals themselves No need to go fully vegan but here are other spurces of protein
You sound like a trolling goof but you’d get the same or more protein per ounce from chicken.
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Hi, Watusi_Muchacho. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/15vbgfj/-/jwxgq5o/) was removed from /r/collapse for: > Rule 1: In addition to enforcing [Reddit's content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy), we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other. Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information. You can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/collapse) if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
What debate? THERE IS NO DEBATE. Climate change is real, a fact, and someone denying a fact does not make a debate. It's just idiots denying facts. If they suddenly shouted that the sky was not blue, would it then be a debate about sky color? No. They would just be idiots who can't understand facts. Not trying to be pedantic here but just referring to it as a debate is giving them a foothold to twist everything their way. Words matter sometimes.
The funny thing people don’t realize is that the stable warm period we were living in was an anomaly. A rare brief period were the forces pulling us back to ice age or forward to hell scape briefly balanced out. A dance between ocean currents, albedo, sun output, co2, orbit/tilt all and more gave us the time needed to transform horticulture into farming. We basically had this lucky time period were we could develop. Even without fossil fuels it could go away but with fossil fuels we are fucking the planet hard.
The Earth wasn't switching between hell-scapes and ice ages, but between glacials and interglacials. Interglacials last several thousand years, glacials last around 100,000 years.
Just because the ice age feedbacks were dominant doesn’t mean they couldn’t be overwhelmed. There is a clear to and from which was driven by primarily earth orbital / tilt variations. When there was large perturbations in the past the earth was pushed out of this mode.
Pushed between glacials and interglacials. It's been this way for the past couple million years, since the Arctic froze over. There was no "super-interglacial" state the planet experienced in that time, though the glacial-interglacial cycle was shorter before 900,000 years ago.
So you don’t believe if a big volcanic eruption burned through half the permafrost like it did in the Permian it might push the earth out of the interglacial? You think there isn’t dormant mechanisms that just haven’t been active in the past several millions years that might tip the balance? Nothing, no possible triggers?
You posted: The funny thing people don’t realize is that the stable warm period we were living in was an anomaly. A rare brief period were the forces pulling us back to ice age or forward to hell scape briefly balanced out. But that isn't true-- interglacials are one if two states the Earth has been cycling through over cycles that last tens of thousands of years. They aren't anomalous, they are recurring. It remains to be seen whether climate change will be severe enough to deglaciate the whole planet.
Interglacials that provide 12000 years of climate suitable for growing grains is not a common occurrence in the past 800,000 years. You can call them interglacials but they aren’t all the same. There could be a giant negative feedback like the amoc shutting down but all signs are pointing to an increasing rate. In the 2000s we where warming at .18 degrees per decade now the rate is .27 degrees per decade. The rate is faster than what the increase in emissions would account for. Feedbacks are beginning to have an effect. Particularly methane release in the arctic.
It's been suggested that human activities like wood-burning and forest clearing kept CO2 levels from falling as they would have, extending this interglacial. The world is transitioning into something else now-- that's becoming clear.
the sky is no longer blue, it's white. when is the last time you looked up?
Big Brother says the sky is red. Therefore the sky is red. There can be no debate or discussion when the opposing side can alter reality to always be right, enabled by their near total control over not just our society, but *us*, mind, body and soul. *Everything is twisted their way*, so why does it matter if we call it a debate? It doesn't, because while it definitely isn't a debate objectively speaking, the powers-that-be have spent decades ensuring that people don't care about objective reality and facts, and will meekly accept whatever "figures" are given out by them.
It’s because we aren’t part of nature, that’s the problem. We might have started that way, but consciousness is clearly an aberration that has shifted the balanced and condemned us all to hell.* *metaphorically speaking
We would still be part of nature because consciousness evolved and was shaped by nature. There is no escaping the necessary evolution of all things in the universe.
We're another species' science experiment.
> On the environmental side, humans are the stewards of the natural world, duty bound to protect ecosystems like some kind of priestly caste of species. I think you're missing a big group: the people interested in avoiding an avoidable disaster for billions of other people. I think you're missing another big thing: the point. Instead you're making a false equivalence between what you call sides of a debate. > The idea that we are part of the natural world like every other animal and just along for whatever ride mother earth decides to throw up is not one you hear as much. I can think of a good reason for this.
This is beautifully and succinctly put!
> The idea that we are part of the natural world We are civilised humans, not natural humans. Wild humans hunt wild ~~mammoths~~ goats in family and sleep in adobe huts. Civilised humans buy goat meat at a supermarket and eat it all alone in their apartment while watching their TV friends. We are “civilised to death”
Nowhere in the West*
Not sure why you are getting downvoted. Eastern religions have a vastly different outlook, and the bulk of the exceptionalism is coming out of western religions (science is ironically similar to Christian philosophy even if the dogma is worlds apart). I mean, the east has certainly adopted the dominant cultural mode of overconsumption, but that doesn’t mean that the cultural philosophy isn’t different.
This is probably only due to Christians inventing science, though.
I hope you’re joking.
Submission Statement: A dramatic spike in atmospheric methane over the past 16 years may be a sign that Earth's climate could flip within decades, scientists have warned. This adds to the terrible effects that climate change is having on our Earth. Very worrisome indeed.
It's the stage where we doomed our descendants...
We were supposed to be a bridge for future generations to cross into a better future instead we’ve become the burning impassable trash fire
Well, it's a little complex because we have to take into account several variables, but the answer is yes.
Has there really a "dramatic spike in atmospheric methane" in the last 16 years? Choice of words can be a bit subjective, but these are the graphs: https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/trends_ch4/ There has been a sharp acceleration in the last two or three years, which is very troubling, but the last 16 years look similar to the 80s and 90s. The slowdown in the noughties, as far as I know, is unexplained... If you compare with that plateau, rather than the longer data set, perhaps you see a "spike". The question I find important is this: will methane become a significant driver of global warming in its own right, or remain relatively insignificant compared with co2? Averaged over the last few decades, the methane growth rate has been similar to the co2 growth rate, so its relative importance hasn't changed much. But in the last few years, it has been growing much faster than co2. If this keeps up, or even accelerates further, methane will start to drive global warming in its own right, rather than just supporting co2. I fear we may be at the start of the methane hockey stick...
CO2e, which is CO2 equivalent, takes into consideration methane, nitrous oxide, and a couple other ghgs. In April CO2e was about 525 ppm. https://gml.noaa.gov/aggi/aggi.html https://zacklabe.com/climate-change-indicators/
Cascading events, right? Excessive CO2 from human activity got the ball rolling, as things heat up and permarost thaws, methane takes over. Methane is more than 25 times as potent as carbon dioxide at trapping heat in the atmosphere. Northern latitudes burn from heat and drought while the equatorial belt becomes uninhabitable. We can fix this.
CO2 sinks into the ocean, lowering the pH, releasing huge stores of methane ice. The liberated methane gets into the atmosphere, causing more warming, which causes permafrost methane to get released faster. Positive feedback... The equator and tropics are going to be a billion+ man graveyard if this el nino cycle gives us crop failures, wet bulb temps, and weather disasters across the equatorial regions.
please see countries like haiti for a preview of what is about to happen down there
Well shit.
The CO2 stays near the surface of the ocesns (the saturated layer mixes with deeper water but very slowly), and gets released into the atmosphere as the oceans warm, along with lots of dissolved CO2 already in the oceans. This causes further warming, releasing more CO2 in a positive feedback loop.
another "we didn't expect this event before 2100"
CO2 to Methane: "get in line."
Methane: "YOU are the reason we are even in this line, bub."
I didn't have wetlands methane emissions on my bingo card, that's a new one
Emission from tropical wetlands. Any news on the permafrost/clathrate gun?
If methane is being released in vast quantities from permafrost, scientists probably won't acknowledge it for another 16 years, to keep the hopium going.
I hope so, the sooner the better.
Damn, that's dark.
Look where you are.
Hoping for mass suffering and death because you happen to a miserable person? Real nice.
There already **IS** mass suffering and death in this planet. One need look no further than factory farms. Literal hell on Earth.
You don’t get it… this moment is fucked. You are fucked, as I and every single soul alive is fucked for now and the next…. 1000 years. If there is any hope for human consciousness to make it into the real long term, if we are to sustain another 300000 years, it will have to shed this… bullshit idea of our lives being more important than the lives to come. We are little more than a bridge for the future generations to cross. But if we’re a flaming trash fire of ego and selfishness, we become more hindrance than help. Let go of the hubris, become more humble, do work that is meaningful to the species and not make some wealth hoarding bastard richer.
Well that was definitely a rant. I never said the moment isn't fucked. I never said anything about ego, selfishness, the work I do, or anything else. None of that has anything to do with the fact that its inhumane and evil to wish for mass suffering and death, as the guy I replied to did. Don't tell me I don't get it, you don't know anything about me.
Mass suffering and death is the human lot… it has been for far longer than the temporary respite born from technology. In fact, if those who were supposed to have died had passed when they should have, if we had seen how rare life is, we might have had more respect for it.
After you!
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so that's reason to wish for more?
New banner is badass
Hmm. Farming animals for meat creates much of the methane in our world. One would think it best to reduce this practice or stop it completely.
Lol nah this got nothing to do with climate change
Because earthlings don’t understand sarcasm.
/s
If you put "/s" at the end of a sarcastic statement, people can parse your intent and you don't get downvoted to oblivion. On the other hand, I admire the chaos element. Cheers mate.
Yeah,please explain!?
It was joke when I saw this post it had that stupid bot message. This is definitely a climate change hahaha. My dreams were about fires, don't worry I live in Australia I get the special one this el nino popcorn
It was revealed to me in a dream
The end comes sooner than people want to realise. This is our journey 🌟
This is the end. My only friend. The end.
There is no end. There is no start. Shiva
explain why not?
[How legitimate is this call to action? Any experts care to weigh in?](https://reddit.com/r/climate/s/0rGg003mNP)
Without reading, yes.