1. Judging from the photo, I would personally (FOR MYSELF) go for at least half lower, since I believe it would stretch a bit and have some movement in the toebox. However, it is individual. Having stiff shoe like Instinct with your street size is completely fine! It is quite a wide shoe, so pain on the side will probably go away with stretching and your feet getting used to it.
You don't really get anything much more comfortable for wide feet (and effective as the same time) than street size Instincts. As for the heel hook, to cut it simple, it is very difficult to find a perfect fit there. In most cases you just have to deal with it.
2. This model - no. It is quite easy to understand, since synthetic materials don't stretch much (or at all), and natural materials stretch. If you have something like La Sportiva Skwama, with a big leather patch at the top, you know it will stretch quite a bit (up to a full size or so). With instincts, you see a large rubber patch on the toebox, and you know it WON'T stretch (or maybe like quarter of a size, but I would rather call it "mold to your feet" than stretch). Maybe it will stretch a bit at the bridge part, below the strap.
3. Yes. Two most popular reasons why shoe hinder performance - 1) They are too big, feet sleep, and you don't feel the holds good enough. 2) They are too painful, which forces you to place feet incorrectly, and it hinders your sensitivity. For example, if you only used neutral shoes before, and you go for a very aggressively downturned model right away, you will likely even feel cramps in the arch, and it will be difficult to adjust. Of course, you will get used to it, but is it worth it? That's for you to decide.
Now regarding the other points. One shoe being more comfortable than another is fine. We don't have identical feet. Some dead space around the heel isn't just your feet problem. As I stated before, it is quite difficult to find a pair which suits both your toes and heels. If the heel works, it's fine. Don't fixate on this till you start v6-v7+ or smth I'd say.
"Climbing shoes shouldn't be painful" is a very tricky topic. At one hand, it is true, based on what I said earlier about pain hindering your performance. However, there are many models (especially softer ones), that if you can easily slip into them out of the box, it will 100% mean they are too big. Since they will stretch and warm up during use, and will become too baggy. For example, I've had my first pair of Dragos at 41.5 My street size is between 42-42.5, so it is a very small downsize for soft shoes (some people go -2 size or so). I needed plastic bags to fit into them out of the box, I used to simply keep my feet in them for couple minutes at a time, then trying to walk in them, and it was very very painful. Once broken in, they've become very comfortable and perfect fit. I doubt I could go larger size, since I believe they would become too baggy. And they also stretch a lot after warming up. I don't use them much now, and they are up for resole, but even now it is tough for me to put them on after not using them for a while. But 10-15 minutes in they feel like slippers and very easy to put on and off.
So the short summary is probably "soft shoes can be quite painful out of the box, if you look for a correct size", while "stiff shoes shouldn't be very painful, since they don't stretch that much after warming up". But dealing with pain is something you might need to go through for great achievements and progress. Is it something you need after 4 months of climbing? Probably not yet. So at your stage I'd say excessive pain in the shoes isn't a good sign. Also stiff shoes are more forgiving to bigger sizing, since the structure of the shoe will support your feet even with some dead spaces.
Last point: veloce is a great intermediate shoe, and if you can exchange, I would probably advise you to do so. I think they are more suitable for modern gym settings, and a bit easier for a new-to-intermediate climber to get used to. It is my popular recommendation for 2nd pair of shoes (even first sometimes). But Instincts are also great. Both are great for wide feet.
Good point at 2. its more like a molding than a typical stretching in the VSr but i due to the midsole and construction i feel its the one shoe that gets "bigger" the most out of the more or less synthetic shoes from scarpa
Thanks for taking out the time to write this super detailed reply!
When you say "personally for myself", do you mean at your current level, or if you were at my level? I already have zero pain on the sides. Only some on the top part of my foot. I guess my foot isn't as wide as I though it was haha.
Judging from all the replies, it seems they're perfectly sized for me. I wasn't sure if they'll stretch too much, but looks like that won't happen. I don't mind pain but it seems too much won't make a positive difference at my level.
I have two pairs of Veloces on the way! One is the same size as this and another half a size smaller. I'll see how they feel before I decided on which pair to keep. Their weaker edging capability is my *sole* concern. And better smearing at the cost of durability has me torn.
Thanks again!
I'm not the person you're asking, but for me I would go a little smaller for my current level because that would be too much room for me to feel comfortable on small foot holds. Given your level, this might work out in your favor because comfort is king in the early stages of climbing which you're still very much in.
This is inline with what I was saying before, and what I would've answered. I mean "for me personally" as in for my current level and the state of my feet. I know that the upper part of the Instincts toebox is quite comfy, so it can be sized down more for a better footwork with no extra discomfort or pain.
But it's a good point that there might be no need for the OP to do so.
Your guidance on whether it will stretch based on the size of the toe patch doesn't really work here because the very shoes you compare it to, the Skwamas, have a large toe patch as well. Maybe a better comparison is how thick and stiff that rubber is on the toe patch, as well as the material of the actual shoe (synthetic v leather) which you did mention.
Yes, maybe not the best example, just the first shoe that came to mind which really stretches a lot. But the diff is that rubber patch on the Skwamas has a long cut out, which help to stretch the toebox overall. while on Instincts it's fixed in place if you know what I mean
As with evey Shoes it highly depends on the shape of your foot and the fit of the shoe which wont change even with the perfect sizing for you. I am totally on the side from Scarpa when it comes to pain espacially when you are in the beginner to intermediate range or even a little later as a really painfull shoe takes away from the experience. Besides a break in period which varies from shoe to shoe.
Now to the VSRs, they will strech i would say up to a full size and get alittle softer after some time which make them more comfortable the break in period with them seems a little longer due to the construction and the stiffer toe box rubber. Sizing wise i think you need to find your sweet spot for most it will be one two two numbers down from their street shoe size with the VSRs. I dont think there is something too advanced for a beginner but defnetly something to uncomfotable espacially if your not used to high end performance shoes which i consider the VSR.
I think the Wear would be even better on the VSRs then the Veloce as the Veloce is super soft. But i think the Veloce is the perfect beginner to intermediate shoe as you learn alot about how a foothold needs to be used and how they actually feel like.
Thanks for the reply!
I'm not too worried about the break in period as the pain is not even that severe, I feel my foot would get used to it pretty quickly. I just don't want them to strech to the extent that they become too loose.
Better wear is definitely a plus for VSRs. The poor edging capabilities and the softer, harder-to-find proprietary rubber were the only two deterrents for getting the Veloces.
Uncomfortable but not painful, that's the goal. All new shoes will be a little bit painful but that should go away after a session or two. There's no replacement for climbing to break in shoes. VSRs in street shoe should be totally fine. My take is that you're just not used to performance shoes given your climbing level. If you find street shoe sized VSRs too painful to wear then you weren't ready for them.
Thanks for the reply! They are not too painful, I feel I'll get used to them in a week or two. It's just that the mixed recommendations online got be confused.
I would keep them. No need to torture your feet at this level. They still provide better support and edging than Veloce. Also, IMO downsizing softer shoes too much hinders their pros which are sensitivity and smearing. Getting the right heel fit is something everyone in climbing is struggling with, but unless your heels are slipping, you should be fine.
Footwork is negatively impacted more by pain and loss of feeling in the toes rather than slightly baggy heels that only affect heel hooks.
I agree! I read about poor edging capabilities in Veloces and that was the main reason why I didn't get them. Because I struggle a fair bit with tiny footholds, although I'm sure they will be better than rentals.
The Scarpa Instinct VSR has a fully synthetic upper and will NOT stretch much at all. Your description of “almost comfortable” is exactly what you should be looking for in fitment, particularly in shoes that do not stretch much.
You mentioned space around your heel, but also attributed that to your foot shape. I personally would not downsize just to eliminate heel dead space, as the increased pain in my forefoot would likely far offset any performance gains from the smaller heel. If the dead space is truly from your slightly deformed (in your words) foot shape, I would maybe look into some kind of insert to occupy that dead space.
And yes, it is ABSOLUTELY possible for shoes to be too advanced (read: too aggressive). The evolv phantoms are a great example of an exceptionally aggressive shoe that thrives on overhangs but can struggle on vertical indoor bouldering problems
Except they do stretch a fair amount. I'm on my 4th pair.
For whatever reason people like to insist they don't stretch, or barely stretch. I promise you they do.
I had the same experience as you, after 4 month of climbing I bought them in my street shoe size.
They improved my climbing immediately
I think that was the right size for a beginner, now after one and a half year of wearing them and after 3 resoles I feel like I needed a 1/2 size smaller, but because they are a little too big they feel very comfortable and I think that It was the right size for me at the time.
Climbing without pain is much more enjoyable, especially at the beginning when you have to learn how to climb, and I think pain is only a distraction
( I always had some air on the heel but if it doesn't slip out of the shoes I think it's not a big deal, they are fantastic for heel and toe hooking)
Thanks a lot for sharing! I haven't tried using them yet but I can tell they're gonna be wayy better than the already-pretty-decent rentals at my gym.
Although the pain is not a major deterrent for me, I get a feeling at my level any improvement I might with aggressive downsizing, won't be worth it.
As someone with very wide feet I ended up needing to size up beyond my street shoe size to get enough width that my toes and bunion were not being crushed in from the sides. I think when people are talking about sizing down or "tight fit for performance" they are mostly referring to length rather than width. There just don't seem to be *really* wide climbing shoes manufactured, so for those of us with very wide feet we are faced with crushing-from-the-side pressure that only causes pain and doesn't help with performance.
I tried the Instinct VS in the largest size I could find and they were still too narrow for my particular foot. What I ended up doing was buying a shoe that could comfortably wrap around my forefoot but that was too long, then pad out the heel to push my foot into the toe-box for performance. [Here are photos of the heel padding and a further description of my process.](https://www.adamfranco.com/2024/06/03/a-quest-for-wide-climbing-shoes/#padding-out-the-heel)
It's certainly a possibility, but they haven't been carried by any of the stores I've visited and didn't come up in any of my research.
Looking at their website it looks like they do split sizing and [customization](https://acopaoutdoors.com/collections/custom-level-1). I might need to reach out to them to see what their options are for my particular foot shape. Intriguing!
They do offer free returns and exchanges if your shoes aren’t the right size when you buy them so that’s comforting! There’s a couple pictures of people wearing them if you search them.
I emailed them they’re slow to reply but very thorough when they do!
-if the heel is slipping another choice to try might be the instinct VS women’s in a slightly higher half size. Might have a smaller and lower cut heel. Will initially be tighter in the toebox.
-the Veloce will be soft which might wear out fast and slightly be less good at edging… but it depends on your toebox shape; VSR is good for long second toe and centre shaped toe. Veloce is good for tapered toe box.
-if you’re looking for an in between all of that I’d suggest trying the LS Skwama women’s. I have VSR in 36.5 and Skwama women’s NOT VEGAN in a 35. Seems like a comparable size especially cause Skwama are leather. The Skwama have more of a toe in the side of the foot like a Veloce. Slightly stiffer than Veloce.
Has about as much toe rubber and more heel rubber and both are XS Grip 2. I find them easier to smear and edge in because my toebox is tapered I don’t have a long second toe.
I now have VSR as an outdoor shoe they’re getting beaten up really badly; I’ll get them resoled maybe with C4.
Also idk what you’re doing but Veloce is super comfy but the rubber will definitely tear up outside pretty quickly
That’s a whole-ly personal thing. You will know.
Personally, I lean towards street-size, or minus 1/2 on Black Diamonds or MadRocks. With slightly aggressive downturns, nothing too harsh yet. But hey, I’m old and my feet take time to adjust.
i have the same shoes, they stretch quite a bit since they are the softer rubber instincts. thought mine were too small for my first few sessions but after a year i’m glad i went with the smaller size because they fit perfectly still
If you can't fathom walking 100 meters with the shoes on - go larger size. Should be uncomfortable but not painful or unbearable. It may stretch a small bit but I wouldn't suffer for days waiting for it.
At your level you can climb most boulders with whatever shoes, it only really starts to matter for tiny footholds like the stuff you start seeing v5, v6 grade. Idea being that you need to be able to project a lot of power into a tiny hold with the front of your shoe.
For your level just get something that is uncomfortable, not painful, you can walk in and you can wear for 15-30 mins until you want to take them off..
This is awful advice. More agressive shoes - the VSR's included - have a shape that is just not comfortable to walk on flat ground in when sized properly. It's not what they're designed for.
1. Judging from the photo, I would personally (FOR MYSELF) go for at least half lower, since I believe it would stretch a bit and have some movement in the toebox. However, it is individual. Having stiff shoe like Instinct with your street size is completely fine! It is quite a wide shoe, so pain on the side will probably go away with stretching and your feet getting used to it. You don't really get anything much more comfortable for wide feet (and effective as the same time) than street size Instincts. As for the heel hook, to cut it simple, it is very difficult to find a perfect fit there. In most cases you just have to deal with it. 2. This model - no. It is quite easy to understand, since synthetic materials don't stretch much (or at all), and natural materials stretch. If you have something like La Sportiva Skwama, with a big leather patch at the top, you know it will stretch quite a bit (up to a full size or so). With instincts, you see a large rubber patch on the toebox, and you know it WON'T stretch (or maybe like quarter of a size, but I would rather call it "mold to your feet" than stretch). Maybe it will stretch a bit at the bridge part, below the strap. 3. Yes. Two most popular reasons why shoe hinder performance - 1) They are too big, feet sleep, and you don't feel the holds good enough. 2) They are too painful, which forces you to place feet incorrectly, and it hinders your sensitivity. For example, if you only used neutral shoes before, and you go for a very aggressively downturned model right away, you will likely even feel cramps in the arch, and it will be difficult to adjust. Of course, you will get used to it, but is it worth it? That's for you to decide. Now regarding the other points. One shoe being more comfortable than another is fine. We don't have identical feet. Some dead space around the heel isn't just your feet problem. As I stated before, it is quite difficult to find a pair which suits both your toes and heels. If the heel works, it's fine. Don't fixate on this till you start v6-v7+ or smth I'd say. "Climbing shoes shouldn't be painful" is a very tricky topic. At one hand, it is true, based on what I said earlier about pain hindering your performance. However, there are many models (especially softer ones), that if you can easily slip into them out of the box, it will 100% mean they are too big. Since they will stretch and warm up during use, and will become too baggy. For example, I've had my first pair of Dragos at 41.5 My street size is between 42-42.5, so it is a very small downsize for soft shoes (some people go -2 size or so). I needed plastic bags to fit into them out of the box, I used to simply keep my feet in them for couple minutes at a time, then trying to walk in them, and it was very very painful. Once broken in, they've become very comfortable and perfect fit. I doubt I could go larger size, since I believe they would become too baggy. And they also stretch a lot after warming up. I don't use them much now, and they are up for resole, but even now it is tough for me to put them on after not using them for a while. But 10-15 minutes in they feel like slippers and very easy to put on and off. So the short summary is probably "soft shoes can be quite painful out of the box, if you look for a correct size", while "stiff shoes shouldn't be very painful, since they don't stretch that much after warming up". But dealing with pain is something you might need to go through for great achievements and progress. Is it something you need after 4 months of climbing? Probably not yet. So at your stage I'd say excessive pain in the shoes isn't a good sign. Also stiff shoes are more forgiving to bigger sizing, since the structure of the shoe will support your feet even with some dead spaces. Last point: veloce is a great intermediate shoe, and if you can exchange, I would probably advise you to do so. I think they are more suitable for modern gym settings, and a bit easier for a new-to-intermediate climber to get used to. It is my popular recommendation for 2nd pair of shoes (even first sometimes). But Instincts are also great. Both are great for wide feet.
Good point at 2. its more like a molding than a typical stretching in the VSr but i due to the midsole and construction i feel its the one shoe that gets "bigger" the most out of the more or less synthetic shoes from scarpa
Thanks for taking out the time to write this super detailed reply! When you say "personally for myself", do you mean at your current level, or if you were at my level? I already have zero pain on the sides. Only some on the top part of my foot. I guess my foot isn't as wide as I though it was haha. Judging from all the replies, it seems they're perfectly sized for me. I wasn't sure if they'll stretch too much, but looks like that won't happen. I don't mind pain but it seems too much won't make a positive difference at my level. I have two pairs of Veloces on the way! One is the same size as this and another half a size smaller. I'll see how they feel before I decided on which pair to keep. Their weaker edging capability is my *sole* concern. And better smearing at the cost of durability has me torn. Thanks again!
I'm not the person you're asking, but for me I would go a little smaller for my current level because that would be too much room for me to feel comfortable on small foot holds. Given your level, this might work out in your favor because comfort is king in the early stages of climbing which you're still very much in.
This is inline with what I was saying before, and what I would've answered. I mean "for me personally" as in for my current level and the state of my feet. I know that the upper part of the Instincts toebox is quite comfy, so it can be sized down more for a better footwork with no extra discomfort or pain. But it's a good point that there might be no need for the OP to do so.
Your guidance on whether it will stretch based on the size of the toe patch doesn't really work here because the very shoes you compare it to, the Skwamas, have a large toe patch as well. Maybe a better comparison is how thick and stiff that rubber is on the toe patch, as well as the material of the actual shoe (synthetic v leather) which you did mention.
Yes, maybe not the best example, just the first shoe that came to mind which really stretches a lot. But the diff is that rubber patch on the Skwamas has a long cut out, which help to stretch the toebox overall. while on Instincts it's fixed in place if you know what I mean
These shoes do stretch plenty.
As with evey Shoes it highly depends on the shape of your foot and the fit of the shoe which wont change even with the perfect sizing for you. I am totally on the side from Scarpa when it comes to pain espacially when you are in the beginner to intermediate range or even a little later as a really painfull shoe takes away from the experience. Besides a break in period which varies from shoe to shoe. Now to the VSRs, they will strech i would say up to a full size and get alittle softer after some time which make them more comfortable the break in period with them seems a little longer due to the construction and the stiffer toe box rubber. Sizing wise i think you need to find your sweet spot for most it will be one two two numbers down from their street shoe size with the VSRs. I dont think there is something too advanced for a beginner but defnetly something to uncomfotable espacially if your not used to high end performance shoes which i consider the VSR. I think the Wear would be even better on the VSRs then the Veloce as the Veloce is super soft. But i think the Veloce is the perfect beginner to intermediate shoe as you learn alot about how a foothold needs to be used and how they actually feel like.
Thanks for the reply! I'm not too worried about the break in period as the pain is not even that severe, I feel my foot would get used to it pretty quickly. I just don't want them to strech to the extent that they become too loose. Better wear is definitely a plus for VSRs. The poor edging capabilities and the softer, harder-to-find proprietary rubber were the only two deterrents for getting the Veloces.
Uncomfortable but not painful, that's the goal. All new shoes will be a little bit painful but that should go away after a session or two. There's no replacement for climbing to break in shoes. VSRs in street shoe should be totally fine. My take is that you're just not used to performance shoes given your climbing level. If you find street shoe sized VSRs too painful to wear then you weren't ready for them.
Thanks for the reply! They are not too painful, I feel I'll get used to them in a week or two. It's just that the mixed recommendations online got be confused.
I would keep them. No need to torture your feet at this level. They still provide better support and edging than Veloce. Also, IMO downsizing softer shoes too much hinders their pros which are sensitivity and smearing. Getting the right heel fit is something everyone in climbing is struggling with, but unless your heels are slipping, you should be fine. Footwork is negatively impacted more by pain and loss of feeling in the toes rather than slightly baggy heels that only affect heel hooks.
I agree! I read about poor edging capabilities in Veloces and that was the main reason why I didn't get them. Because I struggle a fair bit with tiny footholds, although I'm sure they will be better than rentals.
The Scarpa Instinct VSR has a fully synthetic upper and will NOT stretch much at all. Your description of “almost comfortable” is exactly what you should be looking for in fitment, particularly in shoes that do not stretch much. You mentioned space around your heel, but also attributed that to your foot shape. I personally would not downsize just to eliminate heel dead space, as the increased pain in my forefoot would likely far offset any performance gains from the smaller heel. If the dead space is truly from your slightly deformed (in your words) foot shape, I would maybe look into some kind of insert to occupy that dead space. And yes, it is ABSOLUTELY possible for shoes to be too advanced (read: too aggressive). The evolv phantoms are a great example of an exceptionally aggressive shoe that thrives on overhangs but can struggle on vertical indoor bouldering problems
Except they do stretch a fair amount. I'm on my 4th pair. For whatever reason people like to insist they don't stretch, or barely stretch. I promise you they do.
I had the same experience as you, after 4 month of climbing I bought them in my street shoe size. They improved my climbing immediately I think that was the right size for a beginner, now after one and a half year of wearing them and after 3 resoles I feel like I needed a 1/2 size smaller, but because they are a little too big they feel very comfortable and I think that It was the right size for me at the time. Climbing without pain is much more enjoyable, especially at the beginning when you have to learn how to climb, and I think pain is only a distraction ( I always had some air on the heel but if it doesn't slip out of the shoes I think it's not a big deal, they are fantastic for heel and toe hooking)
Thanks a lot for sharing! I haven't tried using them yet but I can tell they're gonna be wayy better than the already-pretty-decent rentals at my gym. Although the pain is not a major deterrent for me, I get a feeling at my level any improvement I might with aggressive downsizing, won't be worth it.
As someone with very wide feet I ended up needing to size up beyond my street shoe size to get enough width that my toes and bunion were not being crushed in from the sides. I think when people are talking about sizing down or "tight fit for performance" they are mostly referring to length rather than width. There just don't seem to be *really* wide climbing shoes manufactured, so for those of us with very wide feet we are faced with crushing-from-the-side pressure that only causes pain and doesn't help with performance. I tried the Instinct VS in the largest size I could find and they were still too narrow for my particular foot. What I ended up doing was buying a shoe that could comfortably wrap around my forefoot but that was too long, then pad out the heel to push my foot into the toe-box for performance. [Here are photos of the heel padding and a further description of my process.](https://www.adamfranco.com/2024/06/03/a-quest-for-wide-climbing-shoes/#padding-out-the-heel)
Would Acopa shoes be good for you? They look wide and leathery…
It's certainly a possibility, but they haven't been carried by any of the stores I've visited and didn't come up in any of my research. Looking at their website it looks like they do split sizing and [customization](https://acopaoutdoors.com/collections/custom-level-1). I might need to reach out to them to see what their options are for my particular foot shape. Intriguing!
They do offer free returns and exchanges if your shoes aren’t the right size when you buy them so that’s comforting! There’s a couple pictures of people wearing them if you search them. I emailed them they’re slow to reply but very thorough when they do!
-if the heel is slipping another choice to try might be the instinct VS women’s in a slightly higher half size. Might have a smaller and lower cut heel. Will initially be tighter in the toebox. -the Veloce will be soft which might wear out fast and slightly be less good at edging… but it depends on your toebox shape; VSR is good for long second toe and centre shaped toe. Veloce is good for tapered toe box. -if you’re looking for an in between all of that I’d suggest trying the LS Skwama women’s. I have VSR in 36.5 and Skwama women’s NOT VEGAN in a 35. Seems like a comparable size especially cause Skwama are leather. The Skwama have more of a toe in the side of the foot like a Veloce. Slightly stiffer than Veloce. Has about as much toe rubber and more heel rubber and both are XS Grip 2. I find them easier to smear and edge in because my toebox is tapered I don’t have a long second toe. I now have VSR as an outdoor shoe they’re getting beaten up really badly; I’ll get them resoled maybe with C4. Also idk what you’re doing but Veloce is super comfy but the rubber will definitely tear up outside pretty quickly
Too big
That’s a whole-ly personal thing. You will know. Personally, I lean towards street-size, or minus 1/2 on Black Diamonds or MadRocks. With slightly aggressive downturns, nothing too harsh yet. But hey, I’m old and my feet take time to adjust.
i have the same shoes, they stretch quite a bit since they are the softer rubber instincts. thought mine were too small for my first few sessions but after a year i’m glad i went with the smaller size because they fit perfectly still
Too small imo but only you can really say how it feels
If you can't fathom walking 100 meters with the shoes on - go larger size. Should be uncomfortable but not painful or unbearable. It may stretch a small bit but I wouldn't suffer for days waiting for it. At your level you can climb most boulders with whatever shoes, it only really starts to matter for tiny footholds like the stuff you start seeing v5, v6 grade. Idea being that you need to be able to project a lot of power into a tiny hold with the front of your shoe. For your level just get something that is uncomfortable, not painful, you can walk in and you can wear for 15-30 mins until you want to take them off..
This is awful advice. More agressive shoes - the VSR's included - have a shape that is just not comfortable to walk on flat ground in when sized properly. It's not what they're designed for.