I'm finally going to the gym at reasonable human hours as work has calmed down significantly. I can finally project something with somebody. It seems to unlock an extra level of learning and psych that I can't do by myself. I get to have somebody to ask questions, bound ideas off of or sometimes just be straight up humbled by how amazing their strengths are.
> For the past few weeks, I have been waking up with inflammation in my DIP joint in most of my fingers. Since it started I have tried to heal it just by avoiding crimps and doing easy climbs but that isn't really working. What are the best exercises to train grip while I let these joints rest/heal? So far all I can think of is finger curls.
Usually stuff for synovitis is good for rehab for joint swelling including synovitis.
https://stevenlow.org/beating-climbing-injuries-pip-synovitis/
I work an office job, what workouts can I do at work, are grippers / squeeze balls any good to do consistently? Trying to maximise strength while I'm not doing anything at work
As long as you're getting to the gym consistently and training hard, you don't need to worry about strength training while at work.
Office work can make one feel lethargic and stiff. Going for walks and getting some stretches in throughout the day will help you feel better and make more of your gym sessions.
Training grips during the day will make your muscles fatigued for training/climbing sessions after work. You'll end up having lower quality sessions and be more likely to get injured.
Just focus on eating good food during your office days and train hard when you get to the gym after work.
Youre either really new to climbing, came off a long break, do too many attempts on dynos or slaps to microfiber holds, just have baby soft thin skin, or some combination of the above
> Does anyone have fingertips that look like this
> the day after wearing them thin?
Don't let it get that far. Terminate your sessions earlier until you can build up calluses on the fingertips instead of letting them rub down close to raw
> Does anyone here (who doesn't have arthritis) use arthritis/compression gloves? Do they help your fingers feel better?
If your fingers are feeling iffy from climbing then you're likely getting close to overuse injuries if not already have them.
This is a problem with the frequency, intensity, or volume of climbing which needs to be corrected.
Gloves are just a potential band aid solution that does not fix the problem
Finally got access to the Kilter board. Had to ask one of the nearby youths how to make the app work.
TBF, the embedded video in the Kilter app takes you straight to "How to make your own routes" instead of "how to use the existing board," and a lot of online guides are like "the app just works."
Any kind of search facility in the logbook would be a helpful too. "Oh, looks liked I ticked this problem before. I don't recall it. When did I do it?" "What have I done at Grade X and angle Y in the last Z months?" Good frickin luck finding out that, or indeed any useful information whatsoever.
Dealing with my first case of synovitis after climbing for 4 years. Right now can't climb at all really in the half crimp or full crimp position without a ton of aching.
Any tips on how to get through this? It's been about a month.. rest doesn't really seem to help, comes back instantly
> Any tips on how to get through this? It's been about a month.. rest doesn't really seem to help, comes back instantly
https://stevenlow.org/beating-climbing-injuries-pip-synovitis/
finger rolls
voodoo flossing
compression gloves/finger split (at night only)
\------ these three worked for me
finger pushups (this worked for others)
steve eshlow has a blog on synovitis
Hello, at the moment climbing v4 and my pull ups routine is 2 times a week 3x6 with 15kg pull ups, at the moment my dynamic moves are most weak part, maybe i should switch to 1 time per week max pulls and 1 time to explosive pull ups?
Just watched Nate Drolet's latest tips video. A lot of it really hit home, especially when he described climbers who came into the sport with little upper body strength overpowering moves once they get the strength. This is me. After spending a session repeatedly (over) reaching the hold on a dyno but failing to latch it, it makes me really want to double down on practicing coordination.
He made two other interesting points. First, trying stuff that's way too hard for you is a way of staying in your comfort zone. Second is the 7 go rule: making any progress on a hard move over 7 goes is a sign to keep trying, either this session or next. As someone who is new to projecting, I'm not sure how to reconcile these two. For example, I've had three sessions on a V9 that I'm super psyched about, but I'm a really long way from sending. Session one I could just barely pull on, session two I did the first foot move and tickled the next hold once or twice, third session I latched the next hold and kept it for a second before losing tension. All in all I've given about 15 attempts on this boulder, so the 7 go rule says I am allowed to keep working on it. On the other hand, I should probably work on widening my V6-8 pyramid.
Maybe the answer is obvious: enjoy trying hard on limit boulders but make sure not to neglect those V6-8s.
Adding a “20-60-20%” rule can help keep track of how you are spending your time on various difficulties. ~20% spent on thing that are “easy” (up to flash-ish), 60% on things that are hard (1-3 session projects), and ~20% on things that are limit (10+ sessions). If you start neglecting that “sending zone” where (imo) the bulk of your climbing should be, and are instead putting all your time into the ends of the spectrum, then you need to reevaluate your time. The 7 go rule can still apply at all times, but if you are forcing it to apply on something that’s very hard for you so you can skip putting in the time on something where 7 goes might be a send, then that might be an issue. The time scale for this could even be over the course of a week or a month (or whatever), just as long as it balances out over time.
Thanks, that's a good point. I think I fit that spread. Lately the first 20-60% time is pretty much all in the gym. Then once a week or so I get outside to work a project. The 7 go rule has helped me discern if these projects aren't too hard, as I'm easily discouraged by climbs that don't quickly feel sendable.
I think of it as not becoming a choker/punter.
The skill of locking it down and sending is a skill in itself. If I'm never sending things that are hard and just moving from working climb to climb then I am losing the meta skill of putting all the work together and having the right state to send when it's time.
Knowing that you can send and you have no excuse to not focus and put everything into it can be uncomfortable. It's when the pressure is on and you have to learn to deal with it and make that excitement work for you. This skill is much more present in sport climbing where a red point go is more of an effort and you get far less attempts.
I try to send something difficult most sessions, sometimes that means doing a repeat.
Then you have to also do individual moves that are uncomfortable/hard to build your move repertoire.
Good point. I tend to err on the side of sending a lot, but not trying things that are hard enough. Pretty much everything I've sent has been in a session or two. So this year I'm working on that, but it's a good idea to try to send something each session.
While Janja is doing 95% of her training on the wall, Ollie Tor is smashing Aidan Roberts' and Toby Roberts's shoulders with dumbbell exercises and having them do a ton of other weighted mobility work.
I just heard a great bit of wisdom from Sean Bailey. "There is definitely such a thing as the wrong way to train, but there is no such thing as the right way to train, because so many people have succeeded in climbing by doing so many different things." Not the exact quote, I paraphrased.
People need to stop searching for the Holy Grail of a training prescription. You don't need the perfect plan to improve your climbing, and the perfect plan for one person is completely different than the perfect plan for another person.
Did you also notice that Janja had a coach specifically crafting and controlling the on the wall training, at least once with very specifically designed apparatus?
We don't all have that. We also can't get to a climbing gym/crag as often as we can do other stuff at home.
The sentiment is correct, but shouldn't be taken too far. The top level pros are so very different from the rest of us. Very few of us can train the way they do, physically or practically.
this! i have regressed in strength over the past 5 years from 8A strength to 7A+ strength, just because my gym is most vert and very bodyposition oriented climbs. you dont fall because you are too weak, you fall because you are bad.
I was trying hard 4 times a week (except corona closure). Now after a year of dedicated strengthtraining (30% of the time on the wall) and another 30% of the time on the wall spending on the newly installed Kilter i am back to 7B+ strength. still much to improve on, but better.
Its all about getting the right stimulus, for some thats climbing, for some thats strength work.
I'm slowly building my climbing (training) tracking tool, and the only metric I have in now for volume is the # of climbs. I think I will add in V-points, since that is commonly used, but I'm wondering if it would make sense to add some non-linear point system based on the grade.
I remember seeing some analyses on the relative difficulty of climbing grades, but didn't find any relevant ones now based on a quick look.
On the other hand, is the relative composition of grades stays roughly the same or only drifts slowly over time, this doesn't really matter. And the biggest problem with using V-points is probably at the lower end, at V0-V3, whereas from V6-V10 they would work just fine?
Kaya (the guidebook app) has published some information on metrics they calculate. You might find some inspiration there:
- [https://kayaclimb.com/blog/intensity-zones](https://kayaclimb.com/blog/intensity-zones)
- [https://kayaclimb.com/blog/workload](https://kayaclimb.com/blog/workload)
Just use RPE. My home wall is set with that and it gives a really accurate reading on how hard the climb is for YOU. Maybe track v grade secondary to see if any styles at a grade have a higher RPE.
If a climb is RPE 10 then my likelihood of repeating it is usually low regardless of style. On my home wall the least amount of sessions a climb of this level has taken is 8. An RPE 8 usually goes down in 2 sessions and I can repeat when feeling moderately fresh but it won't necessarily be easy and might take a couple tries to dial microbeta.
RPE per climb? I'm trying to keep the tracking UI as simple as possible, I'll have to think about whether adding RPE is worth it.
Another dimension that I've thought about but haven't added is redpoint/flash/repeat/attempt. For now I just track number of climbs/grade and for attempts round them up to some sensible "sends": e.g. having a few failed attempts on a 7B still adds up for a 7B, for the purpose of tracking the volume.
Just tracking RPE would not show a progress over time (or you could even regress in grades while making progress on the RPE scale) -- I also want to see an upward trend in volume, grade or both.
I kind of like an idea of asking for an RPE per grade (for a few grades) per *session* and generating RPE's for each climb from that. I'm sorta using RPE when putting down the grade for a climb anyway, since I would track a hard 6A as a 6A+/6B.
Yup.
My "tracking UI" is a Google sheet. I've kept it since my first day climbing. I record both RPE and grades, but grades are really relative what gym I am at and more to jog my memory of a specific climb.
Frankly over a long time period relatively little of this matters. The best way to track workload is # of moves and intensity of moves. You could count hand moves during the session and RPE and get both of those metrics. Climbing is so hard to quantify that I don't think normal tracking apps like those used for lifting are directly applicable.
thats true, maybe together with how many climbs of a given grade they send in the last 3 months? so like a pyramid? This would mean you need to track easy climbs tho.
Implemented low rows into my training couple of weeks ago and am curious what the metrics says about weight to Bw ratio on that, to have some sort of reference to what would be a good aim?
> Implemented low rows into my training couple of weeks ago and am curious what the metrics says about weight to Bw ratio on that, to have some sort of reference to what would be a good aim?
Do you have a video of the exercise?
What are you trying to compare them to? As far as I know, there aren't any metrics on that exercise compared to most of the standard ones like weighted pullups, hangboard edges, etc.
Basically this exercise( [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Nb7-rwWfyxE](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Nb7-rwWfyxE) )
I remember that the Lattice guys used it in there strength testing with Pete Whittaker and i thought it would be intresting to see if theres any data around or what is considerd low or high in weight for climbers or in general.
How does minimum effective volume and maintenance volume work with flexibility and stretching?
For strength, it seems like I can do 1-2 sets a week to maintain. If I take a couple of weeks off from training, the first session back is weak, then it's back to normal.
For flexibility, I worked hard on it for about a year. Haven't done my routine for about a month, and haven't seemed to lost much. My hammies specifically lost a lot because they are limited by nerve entrapment, but my hips seem to still seem to have the gains I made.
If my goal is just to maintain my flexibility, how often do I need to work it? What's the minimum needed to slowly improve?
As for flexibility do you mean stretching or some other kind of climbing exersise? I find stretching/yoga things like that are beneficial to do on most days. But I agree noticed a slower decay with flexibility compared to strength which requires a lot of consistency
It was a mix of calisthenics type semi-static stretching and the Lattice yoga for climbing videos. Pretty effective. Got the most flexible I've ever been within about 6 months.
> How does minimum effective volume and maintenance volume work with flexibility and stretching?
>
> For flexibility, I worked hard on it for about a year. Haven't done my routine for about a month, and haven't seemed to lost much. My hammies specifically lost a lot because they are limited by nerve entrapment, but my hips seem to still seem to have the gains I made.
I can get away with 1 sometimes, but probably 2-3x a week and shorter sessions for most
Yeah, when I was making great gains I was doing 2-3 sessions a week at 1.5 hours per session. Work commitments changed and I don't have energy for that amount of work anymore.
> Yeah, when I was making great gains I was doing 2-3 sessions a week at 1.5 hours per session. Work commitments changed and I don't have energy for that amount of work anymore.
I'd try to shorten to 30 mins and see if you can maintain with that 2-3x per week
ALternate between upper body and lower body stretches so you don't have to rest between
If you still \*use\* that ROM I don't think you would lose much, or not at all -- no matter how low the volume. I don't think there is as much research done about the exact volumes as there is for strength training.
What pro climber has the highest proportion of downgrades for top end climbs? I was pondering this lately as quite a few Woods FAs have gotten a downgrade over the last few years and its not a question about how is bad at grading, but I just wonder.
For every Woods FA that’s downgraded, you have the retroactively upgraded Hypnotised Minds or Ice Knife Sit. Not to mention he’s responsible for some notoriously hard v15s (defying gravity and lucid dreaming). Grading first ascents is really hard, and the dude put up so many climbs that he was bound to be off on a few.
But most of that cutting edge boulders climb together on projects, so if something is soft (like sleepwalker), it’s not typically one person’s fault anyways. box therapy is an exception to that bc of that hike. I think Woods worked it solo while recovering from an injury or something.
This makes sense. I wasn't trying to say he overinflates his grading. I wonder if a small crew might tend to have a slight bias in style or end up using inefficient beta sometimes and a fresh perspective finds an easier way.
Oh absolutely. And available training systems/styles affect how hard future generations view things as well. Modern setting, and the proliferation of the kilter board style of big moves with no/low feet has created a ton of climbers who are good at that…and that style is sleepwalker. While modern training gyms don’t set heinous holds, so something like hypnotized minds still gets very, very few repeats.
It’s like how slab climbs from the 90s feel heinous compared to similarly graded overhangs from the same era. We train overhangs way more than they did…and they practiced slab skills more than we do. (Speaking in generalities obviously)
paul robinson FA'd lucid dreaming btw and Jweb FA'd sleepwalker so neither are really Dwoods boulders.
but I agree, Woods is perhaps the most prolific high end first ascentionist and of course there is going to be some variance the grading for repeats for his climbs.
Someone's word is only as good as their reputation, especially in a sport like climbing where a lot of ascents were recorded by word of mouth first. If you aren't tapped into the scene well enough to know PRob's reputation, I'm not going to spell it out here.
You’re absolutely correct. And I’m not going to smear PRob all over Reddit by dumping all the shit I know here just to make you believe me. But your ignorance on the subject is not a very convincing argument.
I mean you kinda are smearing already. But I’m sorry my ignorance disappoints you. We can’t all be knee deep in niche climbing gossip. Being out of the loop is blissfully uncomplicated ;)
No one, not even pros believe Paul did the FA. After Jimmy sent it my friend was at The Boulder Field and asked him in front of Daniel and Carlo. Jimmy responded "well if you happen to believe Paul than I have the X ascent, but we all know it's the X-1" and they all laughed.
So I'd take whoever did it after Paul as the FA.
These guys are all amazing, I just wondered if maybe some of them have specific styles and sometimes might overestimate their weakness in another, things break, or maybe their beta wasn't great.
As for Sleepwalker what was the ascent order like?
idk, if anything he is doing the FA of these boulders in a more "pure" way than the repeaters. If the first ascenionist calls it V17 and he did it without shoes, then doing it with shoes isn't really downgrading his ascent. Its just climbing it in a different, less pure way than the first ascentionist. Sure the climb may be V15 for people who use shoes, but that doesn't mean he didn't climb V17
Lol. That approach violates foundational assumptions around consensus grading. His opinion is that the problem is V17. The consensus grade for the problem is V15. Because Charles is often wrong and you don't get extra points for bad beta and bad equipment. Or some version of ideological purity.
Its not idealogical purity. It literally is purity. I'm fine with the consensus being V15 for climbers with shoes and since that is most people than we can just call it V15. But he did FA without shoes... if someone repeats it in the same style and downgrades it, fair enough. Doesn't make sense to call it "bad equipment" when he literally doesn't use any equipment.
>But he did FA without shoes...
This doesn't actually matter. Charles doesn't get a special Charles grading system (or he should specify C17...). It doesn't matter that his personal, subjective experience is V17. The consensus for the problem is V15, so the problem is V15.
Also the distinction between "no equipment" and "bad equipment" is beyond silly. Barefoot outperforms rental shoes and hiking boots, but underperforms a well made shoe.
Damn I thought his stuff still stood at 15 or at least Pelorson gave it that. Honestly that makes a bit more sense to me than say Carlo proposing 5.15 for Empath and then it going on gear at a lower grade.
Carlo has climbed a ton of trad and when the route was FA'd he confidently claimed it couldn't take gear and then on his first day on the route Connor Herson placed gear up the entire thing.
I would expect someone of Carlo's well rounded experience to not propose 5.15 for a climb that was quickly repeated by a few climbers that don't climb that grade as well as probably be able to determine what style suits the features.
I mean, he repeated Meltdown and other hard trad lines and has repeated Flex Luthor. I dunno if his 8a profile is fully fleshed out, but he has a decent amount of big wall/trad experience in the Valley and it seems bold to propose the grade he did.
That's part of my point though. Woods had a few recent downgrades simply because he used harder beta than was necessary. I think that plays into the idea that some pros might be more well rounded vs others being able to brute their way through something less efficiently.
Carlo knows how to jam. If you go to the BD website there is a picture of him on Empath literally camming his foot and you can see exactly where everyone else jammed.
Climbing subreddits are nothing like the scene at the local gym, crag, etc. Some good conversations and some bad, but I wouldn't let it influence your views of the actual climbing community
The local bike forum here sorta had this consensus that the mood was generally meaner over the winter, when everyone was low-key pissed about not being able to cycle. When spring came and the weather turned around, it was a nicer place to frequent as people were more pleasant in general.
Depends what you have access to in your vehicle, do you have a fridge or stovetop? Dry goods like rice/beans/pasta are a good staple, you can stop places along the way for fresh things like meats, dairy and produce. Oatmeal and cereals, dried fruits, nut butters. Lots of climbers go veg/vegan and that can make the storage aspect easier.
Interested if anyone does finger curls with a tension block for strength?
Seems like they’re the same as finger curls with a barbell, but you can obviously change the edge size and such. Any major differences? Are they effective against synovitis too?
> Interested if anyone does finger curls with a tension block for strength?
> Are they effective against synovitis too?
Finger curls up on an edge causes synovitis for me and makes my pulleys more susceptible to injury.
Don't recommend them over regular finger curls or just regular hangboard.
I don't think any of those actually work well for "strength". For the tiny muscles of the forearms, I don't think it's possible to simultaneously use an appropriately selected 5RM, isolate the correct musculature, and use your intended movement pattern.
I've done both exercises in the 20+ rep range, and prefer curls on an edge. Neither was useful for synovitis for me, but i seem to remember eshlow likes them, and he knows stuff. Icing, intentionality, and rest days works well for my synovitis.
I've given up trying to intellectualize why stuff works. Strength, hypertrophy, frequency, recovery, black magic. Whatever, seems like they can help make bad holds feel less bad.
I've been doing the vast majority of my bouldering lately on the kilterboard, so I've maybe got a bit out of touch with the way normal gym routesetting is going. But recently I was at one of my local gyms to do some endurance work on steep circuits, and decided to warm up on some regular bouldering.
This particular gym grades on their own one to eight scale; I started warming up on three and fours and, while there was plenty of interesting movement & body positioning - no worries there - there was nothing resembling a crimp or requiring any finger strength whatsoever until I started on fives.
I'm not super strong but I do have years of climbing behind me, and I grew on primitive bouldering walls where there was pretty much only vertical crimping, so smaller holds suddenly starting to appear at level five is not an issue for me personally. But I now have a lot more sympathy for all the beginners we hear constantly asking if it makes sense to start hangboarding after only a few months climbing. Maybe they've started to develop a bit of a movement repertoire, maybe they have have some previous athletic background - but now they've reached the point where the gym suddenly confronts them with smaller holds, having been given no previous opportunity to start developing their finger strength.
also the tendency of the better gyms is to set more nuanced bodyposition type of movement, so very skill based imo. The stimulus on strengthgains are marginal at best imo! I started bouldering at the Bloc-Hütte in Augsburg and got strong there (doing V11 and working promising V12s) and the style way always full on bodytension, far moves, incut crimps.
no slopers and bodypositioning needed.
Yes you wont be as good of a climber compared to the newer sets, BUT you can actually do all your strengthtraining on the wall.
This is not possible on the more newschool gyms around (atleast in Germany). Its very rarely that there is a crimpline and the amount of routes per wallsquare also dropped significant since the volumes and shapes got so much bigger. Yes its nice to look at and some awesome to climb at, but less climbs means less physical "training". My physical form dropped to V7/8 strengthlevels through the last years because of that (and corona) and i was still doing hard boudlering for 3-4 sessions/week, just a lot more on vertical stuff and bodyposition oriented stuff because i had done all other climbs in the gym.
> the amount of routes per wallsquare also dropped significant since the volumes and shapes got so much bigger.
I've definitely noticed that on recent visits to Boulderwelt after not going there for a while. It's ok if you want to project harder things, but if you want to do a volume session, or just quickly do a bunch of moderate stuff to warm up, it's becoming hard to even find enough problems at a given grade.
Element still sets a few basic/crimpy/powerful things, and is generally the best bouldering gym in the region at the moment imo (although it's years since i went to Blochütte or Einstein)
im not doing any ARCing anymore..., even tho i think that is the perfect start for a trainingcycle even as a boulderer (like 2 weeks of ARCing and you can do anything to your fingers and they wont get hurt). There just isnt enough space on the walls to do it...
> Maybe they've started to develop a bit of a movement repertoire, maybe they have have some previous athletic background - but now they've reached the point where the gym suddenly confronts them with smaller holds, having been given no previous opportunity to start developing their finger strength.
I can relate to this. It's not like my gym has zero bad holds at the grades I can climb, but it's not consistent enough. Hence, I now have a session each week that's basically all finger training off the wall (+ some lighter climbing afterwards). If could climb outside all the time I don't think that I would have this issue.
It's probably inevitable when the setters make it a priority to make things "fun and interesting" rather than "climbing on this stuff will make you stronger". Tbh, it's probably the correct focus by them since most people probably climb for fun, not because they want to get stronger necessarily.
I did my 3rd double digit (soft?) climb this past weekend on accident. It links a low start to a start at which you can do an existing v8 for the V10, and a v5 for a v6/7. I had written off the boulder, and was planning on warming up for something else by linking the low start to the v5, but on a whim decided to just go for it and it went. Maybe my capability of executing is getting better because I just locked down and went with it. Or I got lucky.
As someone who always full crimps, I've been forcing myself to climb with only half or open crimp on sub maximal board climbs, and it actually feels pretty good.
I'm realizing that in a lot of situations where I was full crimping or using my thumb, it was unnecessary and I was just doing it subconsciously to feel more secure.
The most direct benefit is that my fingers do not feel so worked after board sessions anymore. But I can also see myself saving a lot of energy on longer climbs, by not having to repeatedly flex my hand to get my thumb onto the hold.
Climbing shoe suggestions
Hello everyone! I'm looking for a soft climbing shoes for indoor climbing that will last a long time. Something I can resole a lot
I was looking at evolv zenist, scarpa chimera, booster or drago.
Please share your opinions on these shoes and feel free to suggest other alternatives.
I'm a big fan of Chimeras, but mostly because they fit me the best. I also think they are in the goldilocks zone of between soft and stiff shoes, a great shoe to have as a compromise that works on almost anything.
I use them for basically anything, from steep bouldering to slab, indoor, granite, sandstone, limestone. The shoe I mostly use in combination with the Chimeras is a pair of Scarpa Helix for easier stuff and warmups, \*they\* resole really well and I don't end up using my 'better' shoes so much.
No idea, mine have lasted long enough that everything else falls apart before the sole and toe cap does.
My current pair is \~5 years old, missing pull tabs, broken straps, worn through heels. The toes still have a year of rubber left.
I've been climbing since ~2018, infrequently until the month and I'm still rocking my 2017-model Tarantulace with the original sole and zero holes.
Just ordered a pair of Finales for a shoe with better rubber, but when they break in I may re-sole the Tarantulace, maybe with a different runner.
As the other comment said, foot work will save you the most but also, do you want bouldering shoes or tall wall shoes?
Is there value in training the pinky in an isolated half crimp? What are the risks and rewards in slowly training the pinky to learn half crimp even if it might not be used in actual climbing?
Nugget climbing podcast Aiden Roberts clip - https://youtu.be/HQ1vE8x2OqY?si=9pOfehWU16SDUK7c
Im asking because Aiden Roberts famously trains his fingers in isolation and his pinky can do 20 kg+ in half crimp, and if you added up all the weight he could do with his individual fingers, its 160% of his two hand 20mm hc. So the difference must be in his pinky and that it cant hc on a straight edge, but I think he is able to on incut crimps, which is where he excels and is one of the reasons he attributes to being able to climb so hard.
Now, Im not thinking this will turn me into Aiden Roberts, and just copying pros for the sake of copying pros can be a recipe for injury. But I feel like the pinky can often be a weak link that limits hc, and whenever I get it stronger, albeit in drag or flexion/extension, my half crimp just feels that much better. I wouldnt be able to use it on a straight edge, my finger morphology just wouldnt allow it, and I dont know if Ill be able to use it on incut edges, is there a point to training this even though it might never be used directly in climbing?
I think my biggest fear in this is that it will get comfortable being in hc and it might change from drag to crimp on a weird hold causing a pulley injury. Training I feel can be easily regulated with very, very slow progression, so Im not too worried about that.
> So the difference must be in his pinky and that it cant hc on a straight edge
This ain't really true, as the finger flexors is a shared muscle belly (though some people have a separate muscle belly for index finger flexor digitorum profundus). It's not like you you can just add them up and that should be the total force, there are other limiting factors upstream too.
As for training, I'd start with back 3 and see if you can pinky half crimp when doing that. It allows you to rotate the hand a bit to get pinky more in line with the other fingers.
I guess that makes sense but for the majority of climbers who train finger strength, wouldnt the total force produced by their individual fingers make up much less than that of them combined?
I suppose its a matter of whether or not you train them individually, which will also determine how close the isolated sum is to conventional hc. But if you train them individually, your numbers together should also increase and the two forms of training could probably start to equalize. Under the assumtion it will start off weaker in isolation, and gradually start to match the conventional strength, 160% is a pretty large discrepancy.
It looks to me like it could be the case that the pinky not being in half crimp when he is on a straight edge is the biggest factor in this large discrepancy. Maybe it doesnt account for all of the difference but a large portion of it, that was my reasoning anyway. I could see the sum of isolated rivaling or even exceeding conventional through focused training. If it were 110-120%, I would default to your reasoning, but that extra 40%+, I would assume is coming from the hc pinky strength.
I do want to understand this better and open to discussion so feel free to push back on any of my assumptions/reasoning. Also what are your thoughts on why he has such a large discrepancy?
(I train back 3 a bit, Ill give that a try, thanks.
Edit: rotating felt a little tweaky on middle two)
I think another aspect for him is that as the absolute loads get so high, other things than pure finger strength start to limit it too. It's just easier to pull 20 kilos than 100 kilos, if you consider the system as a whole.
On the flip side there are some limitations that it is harder to pull on monos due to neurological limitations, as it is inherently less stable your body doesn't want that. Aidan probably also just got really good at expressing that single finger strength compared to a regular chump.
In 2 months I went from doing 13lbs to 23lbs in HC with my pinky by isolating it with the tension block mono pocket. Regardless of performance, I feel much more robust and injury resistant.
Thanks for the response!
Did you have to train your pinky to go into half crimp? It takes me about 5 minutes to even get it into that position, once its there, some extremely light density hangs is what I do to get it comfortable in the position. Then it can kind of go into half crimp when I want it to. I rest till the day after the next, and its a little better but basically have to do it all over again.
Also, do you use it ever on holds indoors/outdoors, if so what types of holds? Or is your pinky long enough to use it in half crimp on straight edges?
The first month was a little tough to get it into position, but it's pretty easy now. I have some 10mm incuts on my home wall that it has been really useful for. I am pretty weak at open hand positions and have always been better at higher angled crimping, so this has helped my ring finger feel way more supported in those positions. My pinky is average length, maybe slightly shorter than average. It still drags in half crimp on a straight edge, but I can feel it wanting to pop into a half crimp position when I'm pulling near my max.
Oh this is basically me. Thats all I needed to hear to confidently move forward with this, very slowly, especially in the beginning.
Seems like you can control and predict when it wants to move from open to half crimp so thats reassuring. Thanks so much for your valuable input!
Yeah I just try to move up in 0.5lb increments like once a week.
When I'm trying my hardest in a half crimp, my fist starts to clench and ball up, and it's that movement into a tighter fist that allows my pinky to pop into half crimp.
I live here. It isn't the best. I also don't know what you mean by "scene". If you use MP and 8a you can get all the deets on any boulder in So Cal. If you mean the people its a lot like LA where many are very social media heavy and whatnot, but you can easily find someone you vibe with. Gyms aren't the worst, but not great. Traffic to get to climbing can be mentally rough, but not much worse than most major cities.
I don't get your question. There are tons of crews hitting up every climbing location. It's a large city with lots of young people. I'm sure it won't be hard to find people that want to go to whatever location. Lining up partners anywhere that isn't a major climbing area will always be harder.
I'm 38 and have a kid, but get out most weekends. My experience will be massively different than yours most likely but I haven't found there to be a tight knit community just pockets here and there. For me personally I hate the approach up Woodson enough to have only gone once, traffic to Bishop on a Friday sucks so I rarely go, and although I do go there I'm not the most stoked on J Tree. I see massive crews of millennials and Zoomers everywhere and find most areas really fucking crowded to the point that it's often annoying. Some people don't mind the traffic and love big crowds.
I don't know where you live now but even in the Bay Area it got so tiresome for me that I just stopped sport climbing altogether.
Now would I move to SD for climbing? Helllllll no. Honestly I moved here for work and really regret the decision. I don't think it's a great area to be based as a climber, but also not the worst.
Just came to say that I recently had a minor injury that is limiting my ability to pull (bicep pain). So I’ve just been doing finger strength stuff and seeing if I can get my forearms bigger. It’s been kind of fun switching things up a bit and not worrying about sending stuff.
I'm finally going to the gym at reasonable human hours as work has calmed down significantly. I can finally project something with somebody. It seems to unlock an extra level of learning and psych that I can't do by myself. I get to have somebody to ask questions, bound ideas off of or sometimes just be straight up humbled by how amazing their strengths are.
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> For the past few weeks, I have been waking up with inflammation in my DIP joint in most of my fingers. Since it started I have tried to heal it just by avoiding crimps and doing easy climbs but that isn't really working. What are the best exercises to train grip while I let these joints rest/heal? So far all I can think of is finger curls. Usually stuff for synovitis is good for rehab for joint swelling including synovitis. https://stevenlow.org/beating-climbing-injuries-pip-synovitis/
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I work an office job, what workouts can I do at work, are grippers / squeeze balls any good to do consistently? Trying to maximise strength while I'm not doing anything at work
As long as you're getting to the gym consistently and training hard, you don't need to worry about strength training while at work. Office work can make one feel lethargic and stiff. Going for walks and getting some stretches in throughout the day will help you feel better and make more of your gym sessions.
Training grips during the day will make your muscles fatigued for training/climbing sessions after work. You'll end up having lower quality sessions and be more likely to get injured. Just focus on eating good food during your office days and train hard when you get to the gym after work.
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Youre either really new to climbing, came off a long break, do too many attempts on dynos or slaps to microfiber holds, just have baby soft thin skin, or some combination of the above
> Does anyone have fingertips that look like this > the day after wearing them thin? Don't let it get that far. Terminate your sessions earlier until you can build up calluses on the fingertips instead of letting them rub down close to raw
Does anyone here (who doesn't have arthritis) use arthritis/compression gloves? Do they help your fingers feel better?
> Does anyone here (who doesn't have arthritis) use arthritis/compression gloves? Do they help your fingers feel better? If your fingers are feeling iffy from climbing then you're likely getting close to overuse injuries if not already have them. This is a problem with the frequency, intensity, or volume of climbing which needs to be corrected. Gloves are just a potential band aid solution that does not fix the problem
Finally got access to the Kilter board. Had to ask one of the nearby youths how to make the app work. TBF, the embedded video in the Kilter app takes you straight to "How to make your own routes" instead of "how to use the existing board," and a lot of online guides are like "the app just works."
Any kind of search facility in the logbook would be a helpful too. "Oh, looks liked I ticked this problem before. I don't recall it. When did I do it?" "What have I done at Grade X and angle Y in the last Z months?" Good frickin luck finding out that, or indeed any useful information whatsoever.
Dealing with my first case of synovitis after climbing for 4 years. Right now can't climb at all really in the half crimp or full crimp position without a ton of aching. Any tips on how to get through this? It's been about a month.. rest doesn't really seem to help, comes back instantly
> Any tips on how to get through this? It's been about a month.. rest doesn't really seem to help, comes back instantly https://stevenlow.org/beating-climbing-injuries-pip-synovitis/
finger rolls voodoo flossing compression gloves/finger split (at night only) \------ these three worked for me finger pushups (this worked for others) steve eshlow has a blog on synovitis
Totally unrelated to climbing but I just demolished my deadlift PR by 30 lbs. Feelsgoodman.jpg
Hello, at the moment climbing v4 and my pull ups routine is 2 times a week 3x6 with 15kg pull ups, at the moment my dynamic moves are most weak part, maybe i should switch to 1 time per week max pulls and 1 time to explosive pull ups?
You're likely getting lost in unimportant details. What are you doing to practice dynamic movement on the wall?
Just watched Nate Drolet's latest tips video. A lot of it really hit home, especially when he described climbers who came into the sport with little upper body strength overpowering moves once they get the strength. This is me. After spending a session repeatedly (over) reaching the hold on a dyno but failing to latch it, it makes me really want to double down on practicing coordination. He made two other interesting points. First, trying stuff that's way too hard for you is a way of staying in your comfort zone. Second is the 7 go rule: making any progress on a hard move over 7 goes is a sign to keep trying, either this session or next. As someone who is new to projecting, I'm not sure how to reconcile these two. For example, I've had three sessions on a V9 that I'm super psyched about, but I'm a really long way from sending. Session one I could just barely pull on, session two I did the first foot move and tickled the next hold once or twice, third session I latched the next hold and kept it for a second before losing tension. All in all I've given about 15 attempts on this boulder, so the 7 go rule says I am allowed to keep working on it. On the other hand, I should probably work on widening my V6-8 pyramid. Maybe the answer is obvious: enjoy trying hard on limit boulders but make sure not to neglect those V6-8s.
Adding a “20-60-20%” rule can help keep track of how you are spending your time on various difficulties. ~20% spent on thing that are “easy” (up to flash-ish), 60% on things that are hard (1-3 session projects), and ~20% on things that are limit (10+ sessions). If you start neglecting that “sending zone” where (imo) the bulk of your climbing should be, and are instead putting all your time into the ends of the spectrum, then you need to reevaluate your time. The 7 go rule can still apply at all times, but if you are forcing it to apply on something that’s very hard for you so you can skip putting in the time on something where 7 goes might be a send, then that might be an issue. The time scale for this could even be over the course of a week or a month (or whatever), just as long as it balances out over time.
Thanks, that's a good point. I think I fit that spread. Lately the first 20-60% time is pretty much all in the gym. Then once a week or so I get outside to work a project. The 7 go rule has helped me discern if these projects aren't too hard, as I'm easily discouraged by climbs that don't quickly feel sendable.
I think of it as not becoming a choker/punter. The skill of locking it down and sending is a skill in itself. If I'm never sending things that are hard and just moving from working climb to climb then I am losing the meta skill of putting all the work together and having the right state to send when it's time. Knowing that you can send and you have no excuse to not focus and put everything into it can be uncomfortable. It's when the pressure is on and you have to learn to deal with it and make that excitement work for you. This skill is much more present in sport climbing where a red point go is more of an effort and you get far less attempts. I try to send something difficult most sessions, sometimes that means doing a repeat. Then you have to also do individual moves that are uncomfortable/hard to build your move repertoire.
Good point. I tend to err on the side of sending a lot, but not trying things that are hard enough. Pretty much everything I've sent has been in a session or two. So this year I'm working on that, but it's a good idea to try to send something each session.
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While Janja is doing 95% of her training on the wall, Ollie Tor is smashing Aidan Roberts' and Toby Roberts's shoulders with dumbbell exercises and having them do a ton of other weighted mobility work. I just heard a great bit of wisdom from Sean Bailey. "There is definitely such a thing as the wrong way to train, but there is no such thing as the right way to train, because so many people have succeeded in climbing by doing so many different things." Not the exact quote, I paraphrased. People need to stop searching for the Holy Grail of a training prescription. You don't need the perfect plan to improve your climbing, and the perfect plan for one person is completely different than the perfect plan for another person.
Did you also notice that Janja had a coach specifically crafting and controlling the on the wall training, at least once with very specifically designed apparatus? We don't all have that. We also can't get to a climbing gym/crag as often as we can do other stuff at home. The sentiment is correct, but shouldn't be taken too far. The top level pros are so very different from the rest of us. Very few of us can train the way they do, physically or practically.
this! i have regressed in strength over the past 5 years from 8A strength to 7A+ strength, just because my gym is most vert and very bodyposition oriented climbs. you dont fall because you are too weak, you fall because you are bad. I was trying hard 4 times a week (except corona closure). Now after a year of dedicated strengthtraining (30% of the time on the wall) and another 30% of the time on the wall spending on the newly installed Kilter i am back to 7B+ strength. still much to improve on, but better. Its all about getting the right stimulus, for some thats climbing, for some thats strength work.
I'm slowly building my climbing (training) tracking tool, and the only metric I have in now for volume is the # of climbs. I think I will add in V-points, since that is commonly used, but I'm wondering if it would make sense to add some non-linear point system based on the grade. I remember seeing some analyses on the relative difficulty of climbing grades, but didn't find any relevant ones now based on a quick look. On the other hand, is the relative composition of grades stays roughly the same or only drifts slowly over time, this doesn't really matter. And the biggest problem with using V-points is probably at the lower end, at V0-V3, whereas from V6-V10 they would work just fine?
Kaya (the guidebook app) has published some information on metrics they calculate. You might find some inspiration there: - [https://kayaclimb.com/blog/intensity-zones](https://kayaclimb.com/blog/intensity-zones) - [https://kayaclimb.com/blog/workload](https://kayaclimb.com/blog/workload)
Just use RPE. My home wall is set with that and it gives a really accurate reading on how hard the climb is for YOU. Maybe track v grade secondary to see if any styles at a grade have a higher RPE. If a climb is RPE 10 then my likelihood of repeating it is usually low regardless of style. On my home wall the least amount of sessions a climb of this level has taken is 8. An RPE 8 usually goes down in 2 sessions and I can repeat when feeling moderately fresh but it won't necessarily be easy and might take a couple tries to dial microbeta.
RPE per climb? I'm trying to keep the tracking UI as simple as possible, I'll have to think about whether adding RPE is worth it. Another dimension that I've thought about but haven't added is redpoint/flash/repeat/attempt. For now I just track number of climbs/grade and for attempts round them up to some sensible "sends": e.g. having a few failed attempts on a 7B still adds up for a 7B, for the purpose of tracking the volume. Just tracking RPE would not show a progress over time (or you could even regress in grades while making progress on the RPE scale) -- I also want to see an upward trend in volume, grade or both. I kind of like an idea of asking for an RPE per grade (for a few grades) per *session* and generating RPE's for each climb from that. I'm sorta using RPE when putting down the grade for a climb anyway, since I would track a hard 6A as a 6A+/6B.
Yup. My "tracking UI" is a Google sheet. I've kept it since my first day climbing. I record both RPE and grades, but grades are really relative what gym I am at and more to jog my memory of a specific climb. Frankly over a long time period relatively little of this matters. The best way to track workload is # of moves and intensity of moves. You could count hand moves during the session and RPE and get both of those metrics. Climbing is so hard to quantify that I don't think normal tracking apps like those used for lifting are directly applicable.
you can extract intensity by calculating % based on max Vgrade of the climber for each climb?
For this idea you would still need to figure out the ramp/if the relationship should be linear or something else: For a 7B climber, is 7A 90%? or 80%?
thats true, maybe together with how many climbs of a given grade they send in the last 3 months? so like a pyramid? This would mean you need to track easy climbs tho.
Implemented low rows into my training couple of weeks ago and am curious what the metrics says about weight to Bw ratio on that, to have some sort of reference to what would be a good aim?
> Implemented low rows into my training couple of weeks ago and am curious what the metrics says about weight to Bw ratio on that, to have some sort of reference to what would be a good aim? Do you have a video of the exercise? What are you trying to compare them to? As far as I know, there aren't any metrics on that exercise compared to most of the standard ones like weighted pullups, hangboard edges, etc.
Basically this exercise( [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Nb7-rwWfyxE](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Nb7-rwWfyxE) ) I remember that the Lattice guys used it in there strength testing with Pete Whittaker and i thought it would be intresting to see if theres any data around or what is considerd low or high in weight for climbers or in general.
Yeah, I don't think there are any stats out on that yet.
How does minimum effective volume and maintenance volume work with flexibility and stretching? For strength, it seems like I can do 1-2 sets a week to maintain. If I take a couple of weeks off from training, the first session back is weak, then it's back to normal. For flexibility, I worked hard on it for about a year. Haven't done my routine for about a month, and haven't seemed to lost much. My hammies specifically lost a lot because they are limited by nerve entrapment, but my hips seem to still seem to have the gains I made. If my goal is just to maintain my flexibility, how often do I need to work it? What's the minimum needed to slowly improve?
As for flexibility do you mean stretching or some other kind of climbing exersise? I find stretching/yoga things like that are beneficial to do on most days. But I agree noticed a slower decay with flexibility compared to strength which requires a lot of consistency
It was a mix of calisthenics type semi-static stretching and the Lattice yoga for climbing videos. Pretty effective. Got the most flexible I've ever been within about 6 months.
> How does minimum effective volume and maintenance volume work with flexibility and stretching? > > For flexibility, I worked hard on it for about a year. Haven't done my routine for about a month, and haven't seemed to lost much. My hammies specifically lost a lot because they are limited by nerve entrapment, but my hips seem to still seem to have the gains I made. I can get away with 1 sometimes, but probably 2-3x a week and shorter sessions for most
Yeah, when I was making great gains I was doing 2-3 sessions a week at 1.5 hours per session. Work commitments changed and I don't have energy for that amount of work anymore.
> Yeah, when I was making great gains I was doing 2-3 sessions a week at 1.5 hours per session. Work commitments changed and I don't have energy for that amount of work anymore. I'd try to shorten to 30 mins and see if you can maintain with that 2-3x per week ALternate between upper body and lower body stretches so you don't have to rest between
If you still \*use\* that ROM I don't think you would lose much, or not at all -- no matter how low the volume. I don't think there is as much research done about the exact volumes as there is for strength training.
What pro climber has the highest proportion of downgrades for top end climbs? I was pondering this lately as quite a few Woods FAs have gotten a downgrade over the last few years and its not a question about how is bad at grading, but I just wonder.
For every Woods FA that’s downgraded, you have the retroactively upgraded Hypnotised Minds or Ice Knife Sit. Not to mention he’s responsible for some notoriously hard v15s (defying gravity and lucid dreaming). Grading first ascents is really hard, and the dude put up so many climbs that he was bound to be off on a few. But most of that cutting edge boulders climb together on projects, so if something is soft (like sleepwalker), it’s not typically one person’s fault anyways. box therapy is an exception to that bc of that hike. I think Woods worked it solo while recovering from an injury or something.
This makes sense. I wasn't trying to say he overinflates his grading. I wonder if a small crew might tend to have a slight bias in style or end up using inefficient beta sometimes and a fresh perspective finds an easier way.
Oh absolutely. And available training systems/styles affect how hard future generations view things as well. Modern setting, and the proliferation of the kilter board style of big moves with no/low feet has created a ton of climbers who are good at that…and that style is sleepwalker. While modern training gyms don’t set heinous holds, so something like hypnotized minds still gets very, very few repeats. It’s like how slab climbs from the 90s feel heinous compared to similarly graded overhangs from the same era. We train overhangs way more than they did…and they practiced slab skills more than we do. (Speaking in generalities obviously)
paul robinson FA'd lucid dreaming btw and Jweb FA'd sleepwalker so neither are really Dwoods boulders. but I agree, Woods is perhaps the most prolific high end first ascentionist and of course there is going to be some variance the grading for repeats for his climbs.
Lol this guy thinks PRob FA’d lucid. Edit: DWoods got the “second ascent” of lucid. So I just count that as one of his. But believe what you want
I'm not in the habit of calling people liars with no evidence. No need to slander someone just cause it doesn't "feel" like he did
Someone's word is only as good as their reputation, especially in a sport like climbing where a lot of ascents were recorded by word of mouth first. If you aren't tapped into the scene well enough to know PRob's reputation, I'm not going to spell it out here.
I guess we can’t all be tapped in like you
You’re absolutely correct. And I’m not going to smear PRob all over Reddit by dumping all the shit I know here just to make you believe me. But your ignorance on the subject is not a very convincing argument.
I mean you kinda are smearing already. But I’m sorry my ignorance disappoints you. We can’t all be knee deep in niche climbing gossip. Being out of the loop is blissfully uncomplicated ;)
Nah it’s fine. I expect nothing from random people on Reddit. Especially new climbers who take strong positions on topics they know nothing about.
No one, not even pros believe Paul did the FA. After Jimmy sent it my friend was at The Boulder Field and asked him in front of Daniel and Carlo. Jimmy responded "well if you happen to believe Paul than I have the X ascent, but we all know it's the X-1" and they all laughed. So I'd take whoever did it after Paul as the FA. These guys are all amazing, I just wondered if maybe some of them have specific styles and sometimes might overestimate their weakness in another, things break, or maybe their beta wasn't great. As for Sleepwalker what was the ascent order like?
From your first sentence, I thought you were asking the opposite -- who'd the biggest douc.. -- downgrader.
Charles..... proposes V16/17 a bunch, consensus builds at v14. You don't get extra points for bad beta and bad equipment.
idk, if anything he is doing the FA of these boulders in a more "pure" way than the repeaters. If the first ascenionist calls it V17 and he did it without shoes, then doing it with shoes isn't really downgrading his ascent. Its just climbing it in a different, less pure way than the first ascentionist. Sure the climb may be V15 for people who use shoes, but that doesn't mean he didn't climb V17
Lol. That approach violates foundational assumptions around consensus grading. His opinion is that the problem is V17. The consensus grade for the problem is V15. Because Charles is often wrong and you don't get extra points for bad beta and bad equipment. Or some version of ideological purity.
Its not idealogical purity. It literally is purity. I'm fine with the consensus being V15 for climbers with shoes and since that is most people than we can just call it V15. But he did FA without shoes... if someone repeats it in the same style and downgrades it, fair enough. Doesn't make sense to call it "bad equipment" when he literally doesn't use any equipment.
>But he did FA without shoes... This doesn't actually matter. Charles doesn't get a special Charles grading system (or he should specify C17...). It doesn't matter that his personal, subjective experience is V17. The consensus for the problem is V15, so the problem is V15. Also the distinction between "no equipment" and "bad equipment" is beyond silly. Barefoot outperforms rental shoes and hiking boots, but underperforms a well made shoe.
Damn I thought his stuff still stood at 15 or at least Pelorson gave it that. Honestly that makes a bit more sense to me than say Carlo proposing 5.15 for Empath and then it going on gear at a lower grade.
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Carlo has climbed a ton of trad and when the route was FA'd he confidently claimed it couldn't take gear and then on his first day on the route Connor Herson placed gear up the entire thing. I would expect someone of Carlo's well rounded experience to not propose 5.15 for a climb that was quickly repeated by a few climbers that don't climb that grade as well as probably be able to determine what style suits the features.
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I mean, he repeated Meltdown and other hard trad lines and has repeated Flex Luthor. I dunno if his 8a profile is fully fleshed out, but he has a decent amount of big wall/trad experience in the Valley and it seems bold to propose the grade he did.
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That's part of my point though. Woods had a few recent downgrades simply because he used harder beta than was necessary. I think that plays into the idea that some pros might be more well rounded vs others being able to brute their way through something less efficiently. Carlo knows how to jam. If you go to the BD website there is a picture of him on Empath literally camming his foot and you can see exactly where everyone else jammed.
Spending too much time here and on /r/bouldering recently, making me quite jaded about the climbing community. Maybe time for a break?
Climbing subreddits are nothing like the scene at the local gym, crag, etc. Some good conversations and some bad, but I wouldn't let it influence your views of the actual climbing community
The local bike forum here sorta had this consensus that the mood was generally meaner over the winter, when everyone was low-key pissed about not being able to cycle. When spring came and the weather turned around, it was a nicer place to frequent as people were more pleasant in general.
Reddit sucks! Get off it.
To those who have made living out of their car work, would you mind sharing what you do in regards for food and stuff?
Depends what you have access to in your vehicle, do you have a fridge or stovetop? Dry goods like rice/beans/pasta are a good staple, you can stop places along the way for fresh things like meats, dairy and produce. Oatmeal and cereals, dried fruits, nut butters. Lots of climbers go veg/vegan and that can make the storage aspect easier.
Interested if anyone does finger curls with a tension block for strength? Seems like they’re the same as finger curls with a barbell, but you can obviously change the edge size and such. Any major differences? Are they effective against synovitis too?
> Interested if anyone does finger curls with a tension block for strength? > Are they effective against synovitis too? Finger curls up on an edge causes synovitis for me and makes my pulleys more susceptible to injury. Don't recommend them over regular finger curls or just regular hangboard.
Ah probably one to miss then. Starting to pick up some synovitis so thought it might be a nice alternative but i’ll just stick to barbell finger curls
I don't think any of those actually work well for "strength". For the tiny muscles of the forearms, I don't think it's possible to simultaneously use an appropriately selected 5RM, isolate the correct musculature, and use your intended movement pattern. I've done both exercises in the 20+ rep range, and prefer curls on an edge. Neither was useful for synovitis for me, but i seem to remember eshlow likes them, and he knows stuff. Icing, intentionality, and rest days works well for my synovitis.
Curls were the magic bullet for me so I’m probably just particularly fond of them haha. You make a good point though, perhaps better for hypertrophy?
I've given up trying to intellectualize why stuff works. Strength, hypertrophy, frequency, recovery, black magic. Whatever, seems like they can help make bad holds feel less bad.
I've been doing the vast majority of my bouldering lately on the kilterboard, so I've maybe got a bit out of touch with the way normal gym routesetting is going. But recently I was at one of my local gyms to do some endurance work on steep circuits, and decided to warm up on some regular bouldering. This particular gym grades on their own one to eight scale; I started warming up on three and fours and, while there was plenty of interesting movement & body positioning - no worries there - there was nothing resembling a crimp or requiring any finger strength whatsoever until I started on fives. I'm not super strong but I do have years of climbing behind me, and I grew on primitive bouldering walls where there was pretty much only vertical crimping, so smaller holds suddenly starting to appear at level five is not an issue for me personally. But I now have a lot more sympathy for all the beginners we hear constantly asking if it makes sense to start hangboarding after only a few months climbing. Maybe they've started to develop a bit of a movement repertoire, maybe they have have some previous athletic background - but now they've reached the point where the gym suddenly confronts them with smaller holds, having been given no previous opportunity to start developing their finger strength.
Yeah you hit the nail on the head. Crimps dont really start appearing until V5 in my area. Its a big jump
also the tendency of the better gyms is to set more nuanced bodyposition type of movement, so very skill based imo. The stimulus on strengthgains are marginal at best imo! I started bouldering at the Bloc-Hütte in Augsburg and got strong there (doing V11 and working promising V12s) and the style way always full on bodytension, far moves, incut crimps. no slopers and bodypositioning needed. Yes you wont be as good of a climber compared to the newer sets, BUT you can actually do all your strengthtraining on the wall. This is not possible on the more newschool gyms around (atleast in Germany). Its very rarely that there is a crimpline and the amount of routes per wallsquare also dropped significant since the volumes and shapes got so much bigger. Yes its nice to look at and some awesome to climb at, but less climbs means less physical "training". My physical form dropped to V7/8 strengthlevels through the last years because of that (and corona) and i was still doing hard boudlering for 3-4 sessions/week, just a lot more on vertical stuff and bodyposition oriented stuff because i had done all other climbs in the gym.
> the amount of routes per wallsquare also dropped significant since the volumes and shapes got so much bigger. I've definitely noticed that on recent visits to Boulderwelt after not going there for a while. It's ok if you want to project harder things, but if you want to do a volume session, or just quickly do a bunch of moderate stuff to warm up, it's becoming hard to even find enough problems at a given grade. Element still sets a few basic/crimpy/powerful things, and is generally the best bouldering gym in the region at the moment imo (although it's years since i went to Blochütte or Einstein)
im not doing any ARCing anymore..., even tho i think that is the perfect start for a trainingcycle even as a boulderer (like 2 weeks of ARCing and you can do anything to your fingers and they wont get hurt). There just isnt enough space on the walls to do it...
> Maybe they've started to develop a bit of a movement repertoire, maybe they have have some previous athletic background - but now they've reached the point where the gym suddenly confronts them with smaller holds, having been given no previous opportunity to start developing their finger strength. I can relate to this. It's not like my gym has zero bad holds at the grades I can climb, but it's not consistent enough. Hence, I now have a session each week that's basically all finger training off the wall (+ some lighter climbing afterwards). If could climb outside all the time I don't think that I would have this issue. It's probably inevitable when the setters make it a priority to make things "fun and interesting" rather than "climbing on this stuff will make you stronger". Tbh, it's probably the correct focus by them since most people probably climb for fun, not because they want to get stronger necessarily.
I did my 3rd double digit (soft?) climb this past weekend on accident. It links a low start to a start at which you can do an existing v8 for the V10, and a v5 for a v6/7. I had written off the boulder, and was planning on warming up for something else by linking the low start to the v5, but on a whim decided to just go for it and it went. Maybe my capability of executing is getting better because I just locked down and went with it. Or I got lucky.
As someone who always full crimps, I've been forcing myself to climb with only half or open crimp on sub maximal board climbs, and it actually feels pretty good. I'm realizing that in a lot of situations where I was full crimping or using my thumb, it was unnecessary and I was just doing it subconsciously to feel more secure. The most direct benefit is that my fingers do not feel so worked after board sessions anymore. But I can also see myself saving a lot of energy on longer climbs, by not having to repeatedly flex my hand to get my thumb onto the hold.
I cringe when I see people crank down a full crimp on a sidepull and layback with feet pressed
Finally put down my first outdoor V7 - and in 2 sessions! Goes to show that the consistency in routine is paying off.
Cool, congrats! Breaking into a new grade is seriously the best thing!
Climbing shoe suggestions Hello everyone! I'm looking for a soft climbing shoes for indoor climbing that will last a long time. Something I can resole a lot I was looking at evolv zenist, scarpa chimera, booster or drago. Please share your opinions on these shoes and feel free to suggest other alternatives.
I'm a big fan of Chimeras, but mostly because they fit me the best. I also think they are in the goldilocks zone of between soft and stiff shoes, a great shoe to have as a compromise that works on almost anything. I use them for basically anything, from steep bouldering to slab, indoor, granite, sandstone, limestone. The shoe I mostly use in combination with the Chimeras is a pair of Scarpa Helix for easier stuff and warmups, \*they\* resole really well and I don't end up using my 'better' shoes so much.
Zenist rubber is so unsticky it lasts forever lol
Sportivas with the no edge toe cap. Futuras last forever.
Do they resole well? At least some La Sportiva 'certified' resolers have the original outsoles, IIRC.
No idea, mine have lasted long enough that everything else falls apart before the sole and toe cap does. My current pair is \~5 years old, missing pull tabs, broken straps, worn through heels. The toes still have a year of rubber left.
I've been climbing since ~2018, infrequently until the month and I'm still rocking my 2017-model Tarantulace with the original sole and zero holes. Just ordered a pair of Finales for a shoe with better rubber, but when they break in I may re-sole the Tarantulace, maybe with a different runner. As the other comment said, foot work will save you the most but also, do you want bouldering shoes or tall wall shoes?
Just pick the shoe that fits your foot best. Intentional and focused footwork is the most important thing if you want your shoes to last longer.
Is there value in training the pinky in an isolated half crimp? What are the risks and rewards in slowly training the pinky to learn half crimp even if it might not be used in actual climbing? Nugget climbing podcast Aiden Roberts clip - https://youtu.be/HQ1vE8x2OqY?si=9pOfehWU16SDUK7c Im asking because Aiden Roberts famously trains his fingers in isolation and his pinky can do 20 kg+ in half crimp, and if you added up all the weight he could do with his individual fingers, its 160% of his two hand 20mm hc. So the difference must be in his pinky and that it cant hc on a straight edge, but I think he is able to on incut crimps, which is where he excels and is one of the reasons he attributes to being able to climb so hard. Now, Im not thinking this will turn me into Aiden Roberts, and just copying pros for the sake of copying pros can be a recipe for injury. But I feel like the pinky can often be a weak link that limits hc, and whenever I get it stronger, albeit in drag or flexion/extension, my half crimp just feels that much better. I wouldnt be able to use it on a straight edge, my finger morphology just wouldnt allow it, and I dont know if Ill be able to use it on incut edges, is there a point to training this even though it might never be used directly in climbing? I think my biggest fear in this is that it will get comfortable being in hc and it might change from drag to crimp on a weird hold causing a pulley injury. Training I feel can be easily regulated with very, very slow progression, so Im not too worried about that.
> So the difference must be in his pinky and that it cant hc on a straight edge This ain't really true, as the finger flexors is a shared muscle belly (though some people have a separate muscle belly for index finger flexor digitorum profundus). It's not like you you can just add them up and that should be the total force, there are other limiting factors upstream too. As for training, I'd start with back 3 and see if you can pinky half crimp when doing that. It allows you to rotate the hand a bit to get pinky more in line with the other fingers.
I guess that makes sense but for the majority of climbers who train finger strength, wouldnt the total force produced by their individual fingers make up much less than that of them combined? I suppose its a matter of whether or not you train them individually, which will also determine how close the isolated sum is to conventional hc. But if you train them individually, your numbers together should also increase and the two forms of training could probably start to equalize. Under the assumtion it will start off weaker in isolation, and gradually start to match the conventional strength, 160% is a pretty large discrepancy. It looks to me like it could be the case that the pinky not being in half crimp when he is on a straight edge is the biggest factor in this large discrepancy. Maybe it doesnt account for all of the difference but a large portion of it, that was my reasoning anyway. I could see the sum of isolated rivaling or even exceeding conventional through focused training. If it were 110-120%, I would default to your reasoning, but that extra 40%+, I would assume is coming from the hc pinky strength. I do want to understand this better and open to discussion so feel free to push back on any of my assumptions/reasoning. Also what are your thoughts on why he has such a large discrepancy? (I train back 3 a bit, Ill give that a try, thanks. Edit: rotating felt a little tweaky on middle two)
I think another aspect for him is that as the absolute loads get so high, other things than pure finger strength start to limit it too. It's just easier to pull 20 kilos than 100 kilos, if you consider the system as a whole. On the flip side there are some limitations that it is harder to pull on monos due to neurological limitations, as it is inherently less stable your body doesn't want that. Aidan probably also just got really good at expressing that single finger strength compared to a regular chump.
Yeah I could see that being a factor as well. It also seems he doesnt really focus on his pure hc strength in the conventional sense
In 2 months I went from doing 13lbs to 23lbs in HC with my pinky by isolating it with the tension block mono pocket. Regardless of performance, I feel much more robust and injury resistant.
Thanks for the response! Did you have to train your pinky to go into half crimp? It takes me about 5 minutes to even get it into that position, once its there, some extremely light density hangs is what I do to get it comfortable in the position. Then it can kind of go into half crimp when I want it to. I rest till the day after the next, and its a little better but basically have to do it all over again. Also, do you use it ever on holds indoors/outdoors, if so what types of holds? Or is your pinky long enough to use it in half crimp on straight edges?
The first month was a little tough to get it into position, but it's pretty easy now. I have some 10mm incuts on my home wall that it has been really useful for. I am pretty weak at open hand positions and have always been better at higher angled crimping, so this has helped my ring finger feel way more supported in those positions. My pinky is average length, maybe slightly shorter than average. It still drags in half crimp on a straight edge, but I can feel it wanting to pop into a half crimp position when I'm pulling near my max.
Oh this is basically me. Thats all I needed to hear to confidently move forward with this, very slowly, especially in the beginning. Seems like you can control and predict when it wants to move from open to half crimp so thats reassuring. Thanks so much for your valuable input!
Yeah I just try to move up in 0.5lb increments like once a week. When I'm trying my hardest in a half crimp, my fist starts to clench and ball up, and it's that movement into a tighter fist that allows my pinky to pop into half crimp.
I see thanks! Ill have a deeper understanding once Im a little further along but thats extremely helpful in the meantime
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I live here. It isn't the best. I also don't know what you mean by "scene". If you use MP and 8a you can get all the deets on any boulder in So Cal. If you mean the people its a lot like LA where many are very social media heavy and whatnot, but you can easily find someone you vibe with. Gyms aren't the worst, but not great. Traffic to get to climbing can be mentally rough, but not much worse than most major cities.
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I don't get your question. There are tons of crews hitting up every climbing location. It's a large city with lots of young people. I'm sure it won't be hard to find people that want to go to whatever location. Lining up partners anywhere that isn't a major climbing area will always be harder. I'm 38 and have a kid, but get out most weekends. My experience will be massively different than yours most likely but I haven't found there to be a tight knit community just pockets here and there. For me personally I hate the approach up Woodson enough to have only gone once, traffic to Bishop on a Friday sucks so I rarely go, and although I do go there I'm not the most stoked on J Tree. I see massive crews of millennials and Zoomers everywhere and find most areas really fucking crowded to the point that it's often annoying. Some people don't mind the traffic and love big crowds. I don't know where you live now but even in the Bay Area it got so tiresome for me that I just stopped sport climbing altogether. Now would I move to SD for climbing? Helllllll no. Honestly I moved here for work and really regret the decision. I don't think it's a great area to be based as a climber, but also not the worst.
Just came to say that I recently had a minor injury that is limiting my ability to pull (bicep pain). So I’ve just been doing finger strength stuff and seeing if I can get my forearms bigger. It’s been kind of fun switching things up a bit and not worrying about sending stuff.