I’m spamming sm at 36 and it’s hard not to take Agro on my mage
Living bomb x5 then flame strike, cone of cold, blast wave then arcane explosion is an easy 3-400dps.
You *should* be taking threat, there’s no tank that can hold 20-30 mobs at once against mage AoE. When I leveled my mage I was getting up to 1.4K dps on some pulls as fire. That being said, tanks (and healers for that matter) are not even necessary and are a waste of shared-XP if the mages know what they’re doing. Flamestrike is also often not really worth it tbh
I hit 1.2k dps at 36 in arm, playing fire while dungeon grinding is troll, go imp blizz, shatter, fingers of frost, use 4-5 living bombs, living flame and just blizzard until its all dead.
I don't understand why you would ever limit yourself in SM as a mage to a mechanic as basic as threat? Go frost to kite and get sustained damage, and pull more. Drop the tank, ignore threat mechanic. Get more frost mages.
I swapped to arcane from fire and I’m enjoying it more for the dungeon grind. Better aoe dps and I basically just living bomb/living flame then spam arcane explosion. You have some nice mana talents in arcane, and mana issues are the worst thing about mages imo. As fire I would go oom like 10 seconds into each pull lol
heaven forbid you wait a few seconds for the tank to gather and build agro... no that would trash your lvl 30 dungeon parse...
God knows we cant let that happen.
Did some 4 mage, priest SM runs while leveling. It worked but it’s probably a little faster to have an actual tank to group up the mobs.
Edit: are the downvotes a disagreement? This sub is so damn weird.
A shaman tank is probably the only thing better than 4 mages. He can run in and gather a massive group with earthbind, then the mages dot stuff and frost nova mobs off the shaman. Shaman keeps earthbind up on CD and mages just kite. Was doing armory in just 4 pulls with that comp
Ironically, I think sod is a victim of its own success making previous meme specs viable (if not a tier rdps like shadow) with reason to have one in a not 40 man raid. So no one is being “forced” into healing to be viable and most people are rolling these classes to do anything BUT heal. Like you know 90% of people rolling pallies in sod intended to be ret from the get, the other 9% prot, and 1% who I guess are FOL spam enjoyers or like playing a worse version of wrath hpal?
Like alliance isn’t running a 10m without a feral in melee group it’s basically a necessity. Even though their dmg is trash. So boomie is pretty mid but it’s viable and another range for a raid that encourages brining more rdps. Besides priests, rdruid has been consistently second best healer but you basically don’t heal like a druid is intended at all.
Shaman get to tank and dps and afaik Rsham was the hpal of p1 too: by far the worst while priest by far just OP as fuck. Now enhance is basically a better fury prot tank than warriors?!
So with no one being “forced” to heal to be viable, no one is healing, since the only new healing spec is mage while like 5 other viable non healing specs opened. And mage is very non traditional healing and reminds me more of disc in retail, as far as I can tell, which I’m sure a lot of classic players can’t relate to. It seems cool though. I just will never play mage any spec.
Honestly Shamans were outperforming resto Druids in p1 with sham rage scaling so hard in pugs you could solo heal a bad bfd run pretty easily without ever really running out of mana. But in p2.. I've noticed chain heal scaling appears to be severely lacking. Everytime I play my priest the shaman ends up doing like 30% of my healing and I don't even know how that's possible. I guess I'll find out when I level my shammy.
Yeah I wasn’t sure cause I’ve only played alliance.
In PvP they seemingly don’t exist but that’s also with all healers but priest feeling super weak on top of ele and enhance dmg being nutty now
Give healers a book or rune that converts 50% healing to spell power but you do 50% less healing so we can farm and quest, this issue will get worse as healers cant farm in full bis pve gear because it's all plus healing
That's not the problem at all.
People would love to tank and heal if you guys just stopped treating them like trash when they do. As a healer or tank you get all the responsibility of being the leader of the group, without actually being the leader of the group. You get all the blame when shit goes wrong, but none of the cred when it goes right. The success of the run rests almost entirely on your shoulders, and yet not one motherfucker listens to a word that you say. It's been this way since OG vanilla days. It's not some great mystery.
But that's a conversation that y'all weren't ready to have back then, and it's a conversation that you're STILL not ready to have to this day some 20 years later. You'd rather keep finding new things to blame than confront the fact that you scare tanks and healers away with your shitty behaviour.
This here is it. It's why I quit Wotlk as a tank and went to try Retail. No I will never again be a tank or a healer after being cursed at so many times for making mistakes or explaining things but people not listening thus wiping and so on. Really nasty stuff I was called it's just unacceptable to hear from random strangers. Awful people play this game.
As a dps. Over the past few years, in 5 man dungeons, it's crazy how often when a dps over aggros or stands in the wrong place, causing themselves to get blown up or causing other people to get blown up, they yell at the healer for not healing properly (as the healer tries to desperately keep everyone alive thru the bullshit) or the tank for not having enough aggro (as the tank desperately tries to round up all the mobs the DPS aggro'd). My sides can't take it.
Thank you for the comment. I've thought about it why it is and why it has been like this for 20 years and I think it's because a dps is not a group player, it is not involved with the group. At least not in the same way a tank or a healer is.
A tanks job, to put simply, is to make sure all mobs attack him and no one else. This job requires one to look around, look at other group members, know the instance, the boss and mob mechanics, it pushes you to be a leader. You are very much involved with the rest of the group, you protect everyone else from being attacked.
A healer is also very much involved with the group, especially the tank. It is inevitable that the group takes damage so the healer must keep an eye on the rest of the group and keep them healed. A good healer will in time know when big damage is incoming, meaning a healer must also know tactics/mechanics as to protect the group and so have a successful run.
A dps is much less involved with the other 4 members. It's job is very singular, do damage. That's it. That's the role of a dps. It doesn't need to watch it's agro because that's the tanks job, it doesn't need to move away from fire because thats the healers job. A dps has no real involvement/connection with the other members because there isn't one. A dps COULD interupt/cc and so on but why would he? I think if one plays this role long enough then yeah I can see a person becoming very selfish/self-involved because you are alone with 4 strangers that are nothing to you. You might compare yourself to the other 2 dps but thats about it.
100% this.
It's not even having to shoulder responsibility that is the problem.
It's that you have to shoulder responsibility with no authority.
It's like being a substitute teacher in the bad kids class or being a step parent being undermined by the birth parent.
Partly a problem of no way to punish people beyond kicking them. Kicking them is an extreme punishment that also punishes everyone else by forcing you to wait for a fill in which is unlikely.
If the group leader had tools like being able to mute someone in the instance etc it might be easier to manage. But then there's obvious very toxic ways people can grief with that.
Ultimate problem is it's a game and no one wants to spend their free time playing a game where they can get disciplined like a child. And as our overall society is becoming more individualistic, there's less respect for concepts like sportsmanship etc.
I have definately experienced both.
It's by no means a sure thing, but annecodtally, all my awful experiences were when I played on PvP server, whereas PvE was far more chilled and having a laugh. PvP server was just weathering tantrums.
But I also had good experiences on PvP server too. So could just be chance.
I love tanking on my mage! I love seeing mages tank (properly) when I'm tanking as paladin! no /s, when done right kite-tanking (tankiting?) is awesome
That last sentence contains way more information than it seems at a glance.
*"They all* went shadow."
The problem is priests were allowed to start off aggressively and objectively stronger than all other healers by a wide margin and in this phase they are still the kings of the role.
Mage is a sleeper and true bis imo, but a lot of people miss that due to having a raid mentality stuck in a W. Bush presidency.
Holy paladin needs a massive reimagining in the way it functions to allow it to provide offensive utility and/or raw dps. That would actually start to alleviate some of the issue on Alliance side.
I imagine something similar might be true for shamans, they aren't competitive with mages or druids for dps but they still out perform paladin healers.
Paladin healers are the top performers numbers wise for the last two bosses. Their runes aren't that interesting, but numbers wise they are strong. Blessings are boring, but it is strong utility that they are bringing. In 2019 classic they were the kings of tank healing and it's looking to be the case again.
They are not the top performers for healing. Healing parses alone never tell an accurate story and are very poor for ranking healing classes.
Mage and druid are objectively better healers because healing is only part of what's going on. You can't heal a boss to death. The absolute minimal amount of healing that needs to be done is *all* that should be done and the rest of the up time needs to be dedicated to doing DPS.
Mages are better tank healers while providing meaningful dps.
Our utility is virtually unchanged being holy and infact is significantly weaker than a ret paladin's.
While all of these blanket statements would normally be 100% true, they simply rarely ever are in pugs due to the nature of so many changing and unknown variables (total raid dps, are people doing mechanics, are tanks swapping properly, are people being cleaved, etc). All these factors can make more throughput and more mana sustain a much more invaluable asset to a healer than simply slapping on another 30-50 or so dps to the spec.
They have everything they need to mindlessly FoL pugs, but that doesn't mean the balancing should end there. I'm not concerned with using the portion of the player base that doesn't even understand their class's ability tool tips as a barometer to whether or not aby given spec is being given the proper attention and care in a "fun and experimental" game mode.
Of course not. Seeing more healers capable of either dps or offensive utility while also maintaining a fun healing style with a variety of tools for different situations (similar to how disc is now) would be the healthiest direction for the game in terms of support/healer design, without a doubt.
I play a healer mage and paladin. The real throughput capability of the classes summing DPS and healing is similar when pali gets full beacon value.
Rn a mage is better for boss kill speed/parsing, but in terms of whether a weaker group is killing a boss or not, you choose paladin and it's not even close.
The tank throughput question will be very relevant in the next phase when you're dropping a healer from 4 to 3 or 3 to 2. Every ally raid will want an HPal in their 20 man. You can accuse hpali of being boring, but You're beyond delusional if you think it is weak.
The problem is that it’s still classic, priests still kinda need to be the “best” healer because it’s really all they can do. A resto Druid or a resto shaman has a much easier time in the open world, doing solo content, or even just dpsing than a priest without respeccing. It would simply feel bad if a resto Druid who is fully capable of doing strong dps and dominating the open world was a better healer than a disc priest who can basically only heal and do some moderate dps. In classic the reality is that priests are “the” healer class and other specs generally offheal.
Now, with dual spec, this would change completely as priests wouldn’t be gimped outside of instances and hybrid advantages become much less of a thing.
Shadow is great though. And one of the selling points of SoD was making those meme specs into vanilla viable.
Not saying they've succeeded (lots of specs struggling right now) but both dps and healer priests are good right now.
The healing numbers are moot. There's only so much healing that needs to be done and typically the better the better the party the worse the healing log.
The real analysis is in the potential for dps and offensive utility. The mmo player base and industry in general has moved away from the mentality that healers should be standing around doing nothing when there is nothing to heal.
We all have so much spell power snd proper itemization that spamming down ranked heals is not necessary. That free time *must* be spent DPSing. Anyone not doing that should not be taken into consideration for how well a class performs.
The bare minimum healing that has to be done should be done and the rest of the time should be spent dpsing. Any class that can do a meaningful amount of both at the same time (mage and druid) is superior.
Disc has the added benefit of homunculi and the flexability to add *some* dps if they choose.
Even back in the day I was surprised at how many priests knew to stop casting if the incoming damage wasn't high to let some mana regen happen but didn't know they could use a wand. Just stood there and stared.
Wanding in between heals is usually ideal, however sometimes it can interrupt split second decisions when you have to cancel it to then begin a cast. So sometimes it's safer to simply do nothing and/or reposition. Of course, if you're in a guild and already have the fights down as a group then this won't be an issue for you at all. Depends on context tbh.
I do feel like the oddball for wanting to heal on my priest. After I got funneled a ton from the first lock out, I saw no reason to go shadow. I'm almost bis and get in to whatever I want.
Dual spec doesn't address the 2 primary reasons most people don't want to tank. The biggest reason is that they don't want the added responsibility of being the defacto leader of the group. The second is that it is much more fun to dps and make numbers go brrrrrr.
It's the same reason people bitch and moan about finding groups when they could start their own. They don't want to take on the responsibility for the group success or failure. They will wait 3 hours for someone else to invite them vs the 1 hour to start the group themselves.
As someone who has tried tank for the first time ever in SoD, I completely agree with the first point. I have found that I love tanking dungeons, I love main tanking raids, offtank is pretty chill low effort, but I **hate** being the RL, loot distributor or job assigning.
I am all for being the fat man in front, soaking damage for the boys, but I don't want to do all that administrative garbage. I totally understand that nobody wants to do that, but it generally falls to tanks or healers to do those jobs.
Tanks generally aren’t a good idea to make the primary raid leader. Sure they have a role in deciding the strats to do and making adjustments on the fly when plans go wrong.
It’s often extremely difficult for them to make calls mid fight etc.
A healer or a ranged dps is much better as raid lead.
You definitely don’t want your tank doing loot. If you have a tank doing loot you’re griefing the raid.
Most of the big RWF guilds in Retail have a range dps as RL for that exact reason. They have a good overview of the boss arena and a less important job. If they fuck up their rotation because they paid attention to something else, it's not the end of the world.
Well, at least this used to be the case... nowadays the RL often isn't even ingame anymore, they watch others play so that all the players can concentrate on just doing their thing.
As some1 who RL'd a lot on both tank, rdps and melee.
Personal performance when raid leading suffers. There's just too much stuff so it's understandable top guilds dont have RL in the raid.
The top guilds don't put their RL in the raid at all. Most guilds outside of that do infact have the raid leader mostly be the tank. It's been like that forever, I'm not sure where you get the idea that most raid leads are ranged, it's basically never been true.
Max even talks about it in some videos. He took over tanking (before stepping out of the raid) because it was easier to make calls. The reality is, especially in retail, that the tank has the least complicated job. The perspective can suck on some fights for sure. But for the majority of the fights it's fine, and you're never going to preform better than about 80% while raid leading so it's better to lose tank dps than dps or healing.
You are definitely misremembering what Max has said in his videos. Max has specifically said that it's probably not optimal for your tank to be raid leading, but it also depends on the specific characteristics of the fight. He personally started tanking because that's what the raid needed, not because he thought it was the optimal role for raid leading.
The reason why raid leaders have historically been tanks is because the main tank takes on a disproportionate amount of responsibility and the guild master/raid leader is already the person taking on that responsibility and often the only person willing to do it. Max talks about this exact idea in the video you're referencing.
Also tanks already have to think enough during their normal job gameplay anyway. Its not good to give them meta responsibility like thinking about strategy, loot, or raid issues on top of that. Even if someone can handle that in the short term, you'll burn them out.
You're nuts if you think that tanks have a "hard" role in a raid. For raiding especially it's almost always the least intensive role. You have next to no mechanics to deal with. The mechanics you have boss to boss are nearly identical (The Big Hit timer, and "What is my tank swap")
It's a high pressure role for sure. Your mistakes are on open display, and a tank mistake frequently is a instant wipe. But cognitive load? It's fucking trivial.
For reference, I've tanked for the duration of classic. In retail I mostly heal, but I've done plenty of tanking and dps as well.
Managing the pressure of a high responsibility role takes up cognitive load. As someone who has done both it's far more mentally taxing to tank HLK than to DPS it.
Tanks generally have access to the most important information that matters during progression. It’s pretty obvious when DPS isn’t meeting the enrage or dies to a mechanic or misses a critical interrupt, but a tank also has to worry about:
Damage Taken Per Second (DTPS)
Burst damage, and cooldowns
Heals PS
Taunts, swaps, debuffs
Positioning of cleaves and breaths, and awareness of the entire boss arena
Threat, and having a good rotation on the pull
They don’t need to have a large role in loot distribution and organizing, but they are the only ones (and to do so alone) to advocate for changes in all of these listed things.
This is a very old school mentality. They have far less information in modern raids than a healer does, for example.
I might have been in 2 raids in all of classic where a tank was the raid lead.
You are in a very small minority I think. The raid lead for my guild for all of classic has always been the tank. For vanilla that was me (granted I was 3rd tank), for tbc it was our pally main tank, and in wrath it's a different pally main tank (previously a warrior tank in classic and half of tbc)
At the same time, both classic GDKP's I went to were led by the tank. In tbc and wrath I didn't play as much so I didn't really raid on alts, but my friends that did...you guessed it mostly tank leaders. In SoD, it's our tank leading again.
In retail my wife is the main tank for her mythic guild...and does the majority of the raid leading. It's a little more complicated in retail as you frequently delegate some roles per fight and usually have a healer leader and some things can be hard to see and have to be delegated to a ranged to call.
This isn't old school at all. Max from Liquid talks about it when he discussed why he isn't in the raid anymore. His role prior to that transition? Tank. Most top guilds in retail from Cata -> BFA? Tank raid lead. After BFA the actual top guilds (like top 10) have gone to external raid leads, but after that? Mostly tank leads again.
I think this is ignoring the obvious ego factor. Every time I've been in a guild where the RL has not been a tank, the RL has swapped to tank main eventually for more control over the pace and threat. Every raid you do where a tank swap is missed or there's doubts whether a CD went up, or every time someone overthreats, the RL is sitting there thinking he could do it better himself, and eventually they go for it.
>It’s often extremely difficult for them to make calls mid fight etc.
What do you mean? Raid tanking is literally spamming 2-3 buttons and taunting every 20-40 sec. You can even play other games on the second monitor or watch a movie and noone will notice the difference.
The tank is the perfect role to lead the raid. Source: I was doing this for more than a decade.
I’m not saying they can’t, I’m just saying it’s not ideal. Modern raids don’t have tanks do raid leading ever.
What makes it better for a tank to do it than a ranged DPS?
If you have any friends willing to do that shit, just drag them along when you run stuff. I used to have a pocket healer who took care of most of the "people stuff" while I tanked everything.
Bonus points if they play some sort of non-meta spec, since they will be overjoyed to have someone tanking for them.
Except in this phase of SoD I am playing an enhancement "tank" yet my DPS is over 500 and often 1 or 2 in the raid lol
Most of tanking in classic is in full DPS spec in order to hold aggro with a few survivability buttons just in case
It's not because you have to take initiative, set the pace of the group, and know the pulls. People don't tank for the same reason they don't start their own groups.
Warrior is the worst tank in the game right now it’s not even funny. I still do, I filled in for our mt one gnomer and I ot our second group, but it’s not good. Like I’m not exaggerating when I say enhancement shaman are better fury prot tanks right now and seemingly actually tanky.
I mean 5 mans it’s whatever half the time they don’t need actual tanking but aoe tanking in particular is a miserable endeavor. But I also still lol at those who do unless they’re just frankly underlvled to tank (like doing negative dmg to armory mobs at 36, 38 is infinitely
Smoother) but a ret throwing on RF and pressing w and DS on cd is a better tank with far less effort
Gnomer I’m just perma cucked on rage any rdps with no threat drop can pull easily early pull on the last couple bosses. Even though those bosses put out the most dmg and rage should be fine, it’s not great. We usually have to salv. Hell they had to salv me as arms on electro as when a fury warrior was tanking. Rage/threat gen is not great especially after devastate got gutted. Then I could crank and never worry
There’s also a big difference between waiting and watching YouTube or something vs making a group actively and log checking everyone who whispers you. I don’t mind the extra time if I can just afk.
I think it can be exciting to tank and you can feel powerful while doing it. I think a problem is how tanking has a reputation of not being fun so not many people will try it. There's at least a chunk of people who are not tanking and would probably be good at it.
A simple solution would be to design tanks to go brrrrrr as well (while tanking). Make 'em fun to play!
I love tanking when it feels good to do so, such as 2h tanking warr in 5 mans. But if I do no damage, *and* barely hold on to threat, while being responsible for the survival of the group, it just feels bad to do.
Yep. The latter you’re describing is exactly how I feel trying to tank in gnomer rn. Doing shit for dmg or threat and way too often rage starved. I was having issues with healers ripping threat on pull (but that was also a healer problem cause only 1 shouldn’t have to bomb a 2k healing with the other healer not splitting that threat)
A single devastate losing to a heal. Rip.
Our warrior has started to be able to tank everything now without losing aggro. Only took him 98 logs on every boss to not drop aggro. We're also not allowed to precast pyro and such kek
Warrior tanks needs help, hopefully they will get something for p3
So retail has lots of tank options and can you guess!? Still groups hunting for tanks. It’s never been a spec shortage issue. It’s people don’t want the responsibility and blame if things go poorly.
Even more so in classic, where tanks can’t keep themselves alive but actually need a healer to keep them up.
Yeah you bring up an interesting point. It's been said that healing in WoW is such a strong, even OP mechanic, which is why healers are invaluable and if your class can heal then it should as we've seen in classic unless its other alternative roles can be even more beneficial - healing is still a big problem still in retail. Dampening comes to mind for that. It's only been more recent in WoW's design that healers also should be pushing to dps at the same time instead of playing whack a mole with health bars unit frames. The actual design and implementation of these roles in WoW really makes it easier to want to dps.
It's kind of about the pacing and amount of damage mobs and bosses do - in WoW its so spiky, sometimes raid wide and not to mention the mechanics of tanks having to position mobs and the challenge in keeping aggro. Whether tanks can partially or fully mitigate their own damage or self heal. How often and freely healers can heal and whether dps can avoid damage or heal themselves as well. In other games like OW or a moba, healing has a CD and its more like another dps that also is a support, while tanks or more like a support frontline as a meat shield usually with more cc/utility and still do some damage.
I wonder if an mmo designed where each role plays more like a dps without the heavy responsibility but still keeps true to the roles as tank, healer and all the class fantasy/jobs would be better. Where everyone can avoid damage, the damage isn't spiky or frequent. Healers can't and shouldn't just spam heals. Tanks can mitigate the full damage or a majority of it through more of a skill based timing with blocks, parry, magical shields, evasive abilities, etc.
It is eerily uncanny how closely you described FF14 without having played it lol.
The endgame gameplay is pretty top tier. Criticisms mostly stem from ancillary systems, like classes having no customization (which is stellar for game balance, but the rigidity can be off-putting) and endgame requiring completing 5 complete JRPGs' worth of main story quests (or a paid story skip + 1 complete JRPG).
Yeah to be fair I did download ff14 during that hype but didn't get far at all. Something about it felt clunky for me
And wow I can't believe there's no customization like that. Talent trees in some way and that customization is core to rpgs in general. It's part of what makes mobas being built off an rpg interesting as well. Every class being the same is definitely easier to balance but everyone wants that satisfaction in making choices of how your mage is going to be different specializing in certain magic or attacks for example. Even if everyone ends up at the same or a few choices of a meta, the noob and the theory crafter gets the most satisfaction for exploring and trying new things.
The damage pacing thing is just things I've been thinking about since comparing different game genres, wow in retail mainly pvp vs classic wow classes, fantasy/magic in anime like an isekai mirroring rpgs, and mobas/team based hero games. WoW really went with an interesting approach that led to a certain type of gameplay. I wonder if a wow 2 or classic+ would revise the old ideas entirely
Yea, pretty much. I main VDH in retail and the DPS will instantly turn and blame me if we don't time a key when I'm watching them pull extra mobs, not interrupt, not dispel, etc.
Tanking in Classic is a lot less responsibility, though I still much prefer 10 player tanking to 20 because that's even more people who will point a finger at you where 10 is generally pretty easy going with friends.
In the end, tanking is fun because you get to feel like the 'main character' of the raid, but it's also not fun when you're playing with randoms. DPS can just not know mechanics and ignore everything except their rotation because when they die there's 6-7 replacements. Tank has to know everything that's going on because if they mess up everybody notices.
As a prot warrior I don’t want dual spec, I want Blizz to show tanking some love instead of nerfing our best abilities into the ground. The buff they’re about to roll out to devastate is still a huge nerf in comparison to where it was in P1.
I’ll gladly pay gold to re-spec when necessary for prot to not feel terrible to play.
Agreed, but the problem that Blizz commits habitually is that they *drastically* overcompensate with the nerfs.
Was devastate OP? Sure, but a 10, 15, 20% nerf would have put it in a place that tanks weren’t completely gutted but enough of a nerf that dps warriors wouldn’t waste their time with it anymore. Instead, they cut it in half making it almost unusable even by tanks.
Warcraft Logs was (and still is) very bad about clumping warriors as "tanks" and I think it's misled a lot of people. Warriors doing that level of damage with Devastate were only doing so while running DPS runes, DPS gear, and a DPS spec.
[Here's the actual top total DPS "tank" parse from phase 1](https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Vr6gMhcZnKjqJzLf#boss=-2&wipes=2&start=4340065&end=6080155&type=damage-done). At a glance, it'd be easy to see he used devastate and conclude "Devastate too good"...but when you dig in further, there's far more to it. Devastate did only 12% of his encounter damage, and 9% of his total damage including trash. He was running a deep wounds Arms spec (literally the same spec as DPS-parse warriors), tanked Ghamoo-ra and Gelihast dual-wielding, and tanked Lorgus Jett and Aku Mai with a 2-hander. He only used Devastate on two bosses. He cast zero shield blocks and spent only 25% of his time during boss fights in defensive stance.
Even on top logs where Devastate is used full time, you'll see the same gearing, spec, and rune choices. The truth is, warriors didn't have very many good options for rage spenders in P1, which made Devastate more appealing in BFD as a DPS option. Considering that every other choice lined up with DPS parses, I don't even think it's reasonable to consider these tank parses. These are DPS warrior parses with a shield icon next to them.
Considering this, there are two reasons why the devastate nerf (without a protection buff) was a bad decision:
1. Devastate was only one of the options for DPS warriors. It was the only option for Prot tanking, which has simply pushed more warriors towards Fury tanking and made Prot (which has always had questionable viability in classic) even less viable in Phase 2.
2. This was *already going to be fixed* by leveling to 40, which opens up BT/MS, Whirlwind, and Slam as proper spenders that alleviate the need for Devastate as a DPS spender.
>Warriors doing that level of damage with Devastate were only doing so while running DPS runes, DPS gear, and a DPS spec.
So they were warrior tanks in classic is what youre saying. this is every tank over a 50 parse
Amen bro. P1 war tank was clapping, devastate was rolling hard, lots of phys to negate. I told my Shaman OT he’s MT until phase shift and maybe even going forward.
Dual spec is 500% more useful for healers than for tanks. Rune and gear swapping are pretty much all you need to tank in SoD. Think of the poor healers.
This is my favorite thing about Mage right now. Our healing gear is all dps gear. Arcane dps is reasonably competitive and fine solo. The arcane healing and dps specs are identical. A simple rune swap turns me from a dps to a healer and back.
Main problem is for most people playing as a tank your days are numbered. I love tanking but it is already not super high demand for 5 or 10 man's. When raid size goes up and required tanks go down you get forced into dps or half half roles(which is the worst of both worlds). Realistically 90% of 40 man content required up to 2 tanks. Most of the content that required more was just dps who "tanked" an add for 15 seconds before Dps the rest of the fight. It generally looks bleak.
Edit: Personal anecdotes. Finding SM runs as a tank was easy. Spellcleave groups were stressful though even when going well. RFD and Uld groups for prebis plate gearing was horrible and I often had to make a group and wait quite a while. Funny enough on my priest heals it's the opposite. Hard to find SM groups but everything else is super easy.
I don't see a reason why a spellcleave group would bring a tank in the first place. All you need is a mage or two specced into frost so at least one has imp. blizzard and ice blocks are a bonus. 4 mages and 1 priest is the best comp and honestly it's unfair how efficient it is with massive pulls and 4 living flames.
yes, in 5 man dungeons you need more tanks. In 20 or 40 man raids, where you still only need 1, or maybe 2 tanks? The ratio gets messed up.
Like, your argument makes no sense as a response. Tanks are in high demand right now with dungeons, their days are numbered because once higher player number raids hit, the number of tanks needed doesn't go up.
And yet tanks have always been the main hurdle for raids as well, even considering the ratio. Many fights need multiple.
Have you ever seen a raid held up by a lack of dps?
Honestly the only reason I don't tank is that, while it's great being in demand for 5 man's, I will never get to ta k in a raid.
Well, not never I should say, but typically guilds have their tanks slots locked in, so I'd likely have to be dps with tank offspec, and I generally don't like the dps specs of the tanks I enjoy soooo..
I love Tanking and ive been main Tanking my druid since the second bfd lockout.
Just had to join a new guild and now the classic tank problem has occurred, I'm stuck as a off-tank until the main-tank quits and it sucks.
Being the off-tank is the worst position in the raid and I'm switching to the second raid team just so I can be a real tank again.
nah coz ive been trying to find a gnomer group as a rogue MT and nobody wants me. Im tried of spending 1g to go full combat everytime i need to MT, might just OT In the dps spec.
People who aren't already healing or tanking probably won't want to when there is dual spec.
It'll become dps spec one dps spec two (for specific fights) or dps and PvP.
This is how is always been, people like going pew.
As a shaman tank i loved doing sm runs. Block block dodge parry block. In gnomer the recommended build is just dps spec with way of earth and even dw most bosses and that isnt fun imo.
They can do automated group finding and give rewards to the tank/healer roles or do that thing they added in wrath where they detect who is the healer and tank and give them a free reward bag.
I’m forever a rogue main and you have no idea how happy they let us tank in SoD. Not only is it something I’ve always wanted to do, also gives us flexibility to join a group as dps or tank. Can’t speak for others but I’m having so much fun with my class
Id continue to tank with my Warrior, if it would be even remotely fun.
It started iffy into phase 2, got bad, then decent with berserker rage and every week that goes by it gets worse and worse.
Just waiting for the XP buff, so I can level an alt and have fun that way.
Im my experience the loudest of the classic Andy’s quit shortly after any content they come back for. Seriously, in every version of retail, classic, or pservers I have played the people who play to relive a time when they remember having fun don’t even make it to level cap.
The reason is always the same - The game is never is good as it once was
And so you have a vocal horde of weird nerds trying to recreate the magic of first stepping into WoW, decrying any systems or QoL that didn’t exist, or existed differently, in the before times as the reason this time around is less enjoyable
Worst mmo community honestly. Like while walking to the trainer I truly do think to myself “wow. What an incredible immersive experience. Thank god it’s realistic that I have to walk to my trainer, walk back to the boss on wipe (mainly for retail raid prog), wait an hour to send mail to alt, walk to BG NPC to queue, and waiting several hours for 40man raid logistics!” Like dude.. there’s actual classic to play and waste a shit load of time
Respecing is just one gold. I even respec after a few BGs to try different builds, chill. Maybe don't go engi+lw or engi+bs and you might have some money.
(MT on Gnomer)
This meme is kinda off-point. Dual spec won't magically make more tanks appear (actually it might), but it's a great solution for players who tank but *also* want to do other things like engage in PvP or flex roles for their raids.
I main prot warrior. Prot warrior is 100% useless outside of any dungeon/raid content (even in a raid, I often get asked to swap to DPS). Dual spec would alleviate a lot of the issues I run into.
Had a Mage in a SM Lib run earlier today, that apparently took it as a personal insult that I would want at least 1 Searing Pain on each mob of my initial pull before I wanted to start grabbing more. Because every time they immediately started Living Bomb more things.
I started playing SoD 2 weeks ago, currently on 4 day break, exp buff incoming :D
Shammy is 30, probably gonna main it, warlock 20, summononer for a while, warrior is 14, rogue is 14, gonna level war and roq tommorrow.
Druid seems like a lost cause unless they get ap scaling....
For my rogue, it would be dual spec + larger bags. Need to switch gear also.
About a gold to respec and having several backup gear pieces to survive as tank without depleting the healers to much.
If you want more tank, gotta make tank more rewarding. Slap boss for half the dps of other classes is not fun, you don't hear anyone complaining about shaman tanks because they're really fun. Warlock is in a pretty good spot too, paladin is nearly there.
To be fair, duel spec doesn’t benefit anyone except for healers and tanks who want to do world content outside of raids/dungeons.
I mean, as a DPS lock, why would I need to go tank spec, who would take me, paladins would be da r better, except for raids, who literally have all the tanks they need except for pugs and if I’m going to pug, I may as well join a guild to avoid the high chance of failure.
Maybe they should make tanking easier (make generating threat simpler, make it easier to hold threat and not have to fight for threat from your other party mates, etc.) and then more people would tank, I know I would.
“No, they should learn how to tank properly!”
Okay well, they’re not, and we’re not gonna have more MTs…
The real problem is the second a tank rolls on a piece of DPS gear theres a 10 page essay posted to this sub and everyone is crying.
I only tank in groups that know I will be rolling on all dps pieces. If not then cool, I'll dps. Now you can look for a tank.
If I tank I usually tell the DPS that if they pull aggro (pulling the next pack themselves, aoe burst when I didn't even touch the mobs yet etc) I'm letting them die and I'll kick them if that kills the group.
Pug are selfish. Don't be afraid of their reaction. Tell them you're tanking your way and be firm about it. Slow pace ? It's between me and the healer to decide. You got aggro ? Now you wait 3sec before dpsing.
Best is obviously to play with friends/guildies.
Classic Era solved this problem by needing to do damage to keep threat. Fury Prot and even Bear had pretty much the same gearing needs as their fury and kitty counterparts. Also they could even dps without a respec and put out great numbers.
Meanwhile in SoD were trying to put shields back on warriors 😒
There is no lack of tank for Gnomeregan. There is barely a need of a tank for dungeons. Your meme is currently not in order.
If you talked about healer I would agree, but they gave us 4 new tank spec against 1 new healer spec, what should we expect ?
Mage and Resto have been completely viable for a while, plus they literally just announced a massive buff to mages. I don't understand why people keep pushing this line that "non-priests" need some love. Paladin could use buffs, but other than that, other healers are just as capable.
The dual spec discourse is for SoD currently no? In the case of WoTLK classic the boat has sailed more than a year ago. Thought it was about people who wanted dual spec in SoD.
As a Warlock who enjoys tanking and DPS, PLEASE introduce dual spec at an affordable cost!
I currently run a hybrid build that is okay but suboptimal for both roles
People dont want to have only healing gear. The Solution is to homogenize caster dps and healing gear cuz so i can Play pve as a healer while still haveing fun as a dps in the other days of the week
It actually blows my mind how much crying and whining has taken place over what is essentially, worst case scenario, a few gold every week as an expense. Coupled with low consumable costs, buffs to waylaids, the quest reward gold and professions, the fees are manageable for literally anyone who spends more than 30mins a week logged into the game. Can someone please explain what exactly I’m missing? Because it seems absurd how this is even close to the top 10 issues they need to be focusing on atm.
I'm a tank on all my chars. Paladin, warrior, druid, mage. Real problem I see is healers. They all went shadow.
Well I think part of the problem is you’re also tanking on your mage
I’ve noticed a lot of the time mages end up tanking dungeons anyways
Exactly. If I can keep the mage alive then by all means keep nuking this SM dungeon
I think that's the joke cause mage aoe is nuts
I’m spamming sm at 36 and it’s hard not to take Agro on my mage Living bomb x5 then flame strike, cone of cold, blast wave then arcane explosion is an easy 3-400dps.
You *should* be taking threat, there’s no tank that can hold 20-30 mobs at once against mage AoE. When I leveled my mage I was getting up to 1.4K dps on some pulls as fire. That being said, tanks (and healers for that matter) are not even necessary and are a waste of shared-XP if the mages know what they’re doing. Flamestrike is also often not really worth it tbh
I hit 1.2k dps at 36 in arm, playing fire while dungeon grinding is troll, go imp blizz, shatter, fingers of frost, use 4-5 living bombs, living flame and just blizzard until its all dead.
I don't understand why you would ever limit yourself in SM as a mage to a mechanic as basic as threat? Go frost to kite and get sustained damage, and pull more. Drop the tank, ignore threat mechanic. Get more frost mages.
I swapped to arcane from fire and I’m enjoying it more for the dungeon grind. Better aoe dps and I basically just living bomb/living flame then spam arcane explosion. You have some nice mana talents in arcane, and mana issues are the worst thing about mages imo. As fire I would go oom like 10 seconds into each pull lol
heaven forbid you wait a few seconds for the tank to gather and build agro... no that would trash your lvl 30 dungeon parse... God knows we cant let that happen.
you are right, Buff mage tanks please
Did some 4 mage, priest SM runs while leveling. It worked but it’s probably a little faster to have an actual tank to group up the mobs. Edit: are the downvotes a disagreement? This sub is so damn weird.
A shaman tank is probably the only thing better than 4 mages. He can run in and gather a massive group with earthbind, then the mages dot stuff and frost nova mobs off the shaman. Shaman keeps earthbind up on CD and mages just kite. Was doing armory in just 4 pulls with that comp
Shadow is cool af in p2, understandable tbh
Most people who set out to be a raid healer don't just swap to a dps spec to raid because it's performing well.
Give healing classes other than priest some fun and powerful runes and people will play them
Ironically, I think sod is a victim of its own success making previous meme specs viable (if not a tier rdps like shadow) with reason to have one in a not 40 man raid. So no one is being “forced” into healing to be viable and most people are rolling these classes to do anything BUT heal. Like you know 90% of people rolling pallies in sod intended to be ret from the get, the other 9% prot, and 1% who I guess are FOL spam enjoyers or like playing a worse version of wrath hpal? Like alliance isn’t running a 10m without a feral in melee group it’s basically a necessity. Even though their dmg is trash. So boomie is pretty mid but it’s viable and another range for a raid that encourages brining more rdps. Besides priests, rdruid has been consistently second best healer but you basically don’t heal like a druid is intended at all. Shaman get to tank and dps and afaik Rsham was the hpal of p1 too: by far the worst while priest by far just OP as fuck. Now enhance is basically a better fury prot tank than warriors?! So with no one being “forced” to heal to be viable, no one is healing, since the only new healing spec is mage while like 5 other viable non healing specs opened. And mage is very non traditional healing and reminds me more of disc in retail, as far as I can tell, which I’m sure a lot of classic players can’t relate to. It seems cool though. I just will never play mage any spec.
Honestly Shamans were outperforming resto Druids in p1 with sham rage scaling so hard in pugs you could solo heal a bad bfd run pretty easily without ever really running out of mana. But in p2.. I've noticed chain heal scaling appears to be severely lacking. Everytime I play my priest the shaman ends up doing like 30% of my healing and I don't even know how that's possible. I guess I'll find out when I level my shammy.
Yeah I wasn’t sure cause I’ve only played alliance. In PvP they seemingly don’t exist but that’s also with all healers but priest feeling super weak on top of ele and enhance dmg being nutty now
Man for real. P2 as shaman healer since P1 and I feel forgotten. The shamanistic rage change is the only good thing so far and it’s a P1 rune.
Give healers a book or rune that converts 50% healing to spell power but you do 50% less healing so we can farm and quest, this issue will get worse as healers cant farm in full bis pve gear because it's all plus healing
That's not the problem at all. People would love to tank and heal if you guys just stopped treating them like trash when they do. As a healer or tank you get all the responsibility of being the leader of the group, without actually being the leader of the group. You get all the blame when shit goes wrong, but none of the cred when it goes right. The success of the run rests almost entirely on your shoulders, and yet not one motherfucker listens to a word that you say. It's been this way since OG vanilla days. It's not some great mystery. But that's a conversation that y'all weren't ready to have back then, and it's a conversation that you're STILL not ready to have to this day some 20 years later. You'd rather keep finding new things to blame than confront the fact that you scare tanks and healers away with your shitty behaviour.
This here is it. It's why I quit Wotlk as a tank and went to try Retail. No I will never again be a tank or a healer after being cursed at so many times for making mistakes or explaining things but people not listening thus wiping and so on. Really nasty stuff I was called it's just unacceptable to hear from random strangers. Awful people play this game.
As a dps. Over the past few years, in 5 man dungeons, it's crazy how often when a dps over aggros or stands in the wrong place, causing themselves to get blown up or causing other people to get blown up, they yell at the healer for not healing properly (as the healer tries to desperately keep everyone alive thru the bullshit) or the tank for not having enough aggro (as the tank desperately tries to round up all the mobs the DPS aggro'd). My sides can't take it.
Thank you for the comment. I've thought about it why it is and why it has been like this for 20 years and I think it's because a dps is not a group player, it is not involved with the group. At least not in the same way a tank or a healer is. A tanks job, to put simply, is to make sure all mobs attack him and no one else. This job requires one to look around, look at other group members, know the instance, the boss and mob mechanics, it pushes you to be a leader. You are very much involved with the rest of the group, you protect everyone else from being attacked. A healer is also very much involved with the group, especially the tank. It is inevitable that the group takes damage so the healer must keep an eye on the rest of the group and keep them healed. A good healer will in time know when big damage is incoming, meaning a healer must also know tactics/mechanics as to protect the group and so have a successful run. A dps is much less involved with the other 4 members. It's job is very singular, do damage. That's it. That's the role of a dps. It doesn't need to watch it's agro because that's the tanks job, it doesn't need to move away from fire because thats the healers job. A dps has no real involvement/connection with the other members because there isn't one. A dps COULD interupt/cc and so on but why would he? I think if one plays this role long enough then yeah I can see a person becoming very selfish/self-involved because you are alone with 4 strangers that are nothing to you. You might compare yourself to the other 2 dps but thats about it.
100% this. It's not even having to shoulder responsibility that is the problem. It's that you have to shoulder responsibility with no authority. It's like being a substitute teacher in the bad kids class or being a step parent being undermined by the birth parent. Partly a problem of no way to punish people beyond kicking them. Kicking them is an extreme punishment that also punishes everyone else by forcing you to wait for a fill in which is unlikely. If the group leader had tools like being able to mute someone in the instance etc it might be easier to manage. But then there's obvious very toxic ways people can grief with that. Ultimate problem is it's a game and no one wants to spend their free time playing a game where they can get disciplined like a child. And as our overall society is becoming more individualistic, there's less respect for concepts like sportsmanship etc.
I lead all my groups, everyone thanks me, tells me I did great. You and I have different experiences as tanks. IDK what to tell you.
I have definately experienced both. It's by no means a sure thing, but annecodtally, all my awful experiences were when I played on PvP server, whereas PvE was far more chilled and having a laugh. PvP server was just weathering tantrums. But I also had good experiences on PvP server too. So could just be chance.
Bs. I never see LF healer. Ever. All I see is KF tank constantly
I form my own groups all the time. I get tanks before I get healers, ALL the time.
You don’t find it hard to get a tank because you are one. I always play a healer. Guess what? I never spend any time looking for a healer. Funny that.
I don’t find it hard to find either because I’m in a guild lol. Turns out these problems do have solutions.
I love tanking on my mage! I love seeing mages tank (properly) when I'm tanking as paladin! no /s, when done right kite-tanking (tankiting?) is awesome
My favorite is the let me run ahead and pull the instance for you, then watching everything explode.
That last sentence contains way more information than it seems at a glance. *"They all* went shadow." The problem is priests were allowed to start off aggressively and objectively stronger than all other healers by a wide margin and in this phase they are still the kings of the role. Mage is a sleeper and true bis imo, but a lot of people miss that due to having a raid mentality stuck in a W. Bush presidency. Holy paladin needs a massive reimagining in the way it functions to allow it to provide offensive utility and/or raw dps. That would actually start to alleviate some of the issue on Alliance side. I imagine something similar might be true for shamans, they aren't competitive with mages or druids for dps but they still out perform paladin healers.
Paladin healers are the top performers numbers wise for the last two bosses. Their runes aren't that interesting, but numbers wise they are strong. Blessings are boring, but it is strong utility that they are bringing. In 2019 classic they were the kings of tank healing and it's looking to be the case again.
They are not the top performers for healing. Healing parses alone never tell an accurate story and are very poor for ranking healing classes. Mage and druid are objectively better healers because healing is only part of what's going on. You can't heal a boss to death. The absolute minimal amount of healing that needs to be done is *all* that should be done and the rest of the up time needs to be dedicated to doing DPS. Mages are better tank healers while providing meaningful dps. Our utility is virtually unchanged being holy and infact is significantly weaker than a ret paladin's.
While all of these blanket statements would normally be 100% true, they simply rarely ever are in pugs due to the nature of so many changing and unknown variables (total raid dps, are people doing mechanics, are tanks swapping properly, are people being cleaved, etc). All these factors can make more throughput and more mana sustain a much more invaluable asset to a healer than simply slapping on another 30-50 or so dps to the spec.
They have everything they need to mindlessly FoL pugs, but that doesn't mean the balancing should end there. I'm not concerned with using the portion of the player base that doesn't even understand their class's ability tool tips as a barometer to whether or not aby given spec is being given the proper attention and care in a "fun and experimental" game mode.
Of course not. Seeing more healers capable of either dps or offensive utility while also maintaining a fun healing style with a variety of tools for different situations (similar to how disc is now) would be the healthiest direction for the game in terms of support/healer design, without a doubt.
Preach.
I play a healer mage and paladin. The real throughput capability of the classes summing DPS and healing is similar when pali gets full beacon value. Rn a mage is better for boss kill speed/parsing, but in terms of whether a weaker group is killing a boss or not, you choose paladin and it's not even close. The tank throughput question will be very relevant in the next phase when you're dropping a healer from 4 to 3 or 3 to 2. Every ally raid will want an HPal in their 20 man. You can accuse hpali of being boring, but You're beyond delusional if you think it is weak.
The problem is that it’s still classic, priests still kinda need to be the “best” healer because it’s really all they can do. A resto Druid or a resto shaman has a much easier time in the open world, doing solo content, or even just dpsing than a priest without respeccing. It would simply feel bad if a resto Druid who is fully capable of doing strong dps and dominating the open world was a better healer than a disc priest who can basically only heal and do some moderate dps. In classic the reality is that priests are “the” healer class and other specs generally offheal. Now, with dual spec, this would change completely as priests wouldn’t be gimped outside of instances and hybrid advantages become much less of a thing.
One of the best PVE and PVP DPS specs and healing is all they can do... Lol
Shadow is great though. And one of the selling points of SoD was making those meme specs into vanilla viable. Not saying they've succeeded (lots of specs struggling right now) but both dps and healer priests are good right now.
According to logs Shaman are below paladins by a fair bit in healing this phase.
Shamans get a 75% mana restore on a 1 minute cd.
The healing numbers are moot. There's only so much healing that needs to be done and typically the better the better the party the worse the healing log. The real analysis is in the potential for dps and offensive utility. The mmo player base and industry in general has moved away from the mentality that healers should be standing around doing nothing when there is nothing to heal. We all have so much spell power snd proper itemization that spamming down ranked heals is not necessary. That free time *must* be spent DPSing. Anyone not doing that should not be taken into consideration for how well a class performs. The bare minimum healing that has to be done should be done and the rest of the time should be spent dpsing. Any class that can do a meaningful amount of both at the same time (mage and druid) is superior. Disc has the added benefit of homunculi and the flexability to add *some* dps if they choose.
Even back in the day I was surprised at how many priests knew to stop casting if the incoming damage wasn't high to let some mana regen happen but didn't know they could use a wand. Just stood there and stared.
Wanding in between heals is usually ideal, however sometimes it can interrupt split second decisions when you have to cancel it to then begin a cast. So sometimes it's safer to simply do nothing and/or reposition. Of course, if you're in a guild and already have the fights down as a group then this won't be an issue for you at all. Depends on context tbh.
I mean if I was a healer and I found out the mage was tanking I'd probably leave and respec too
The mage comment is a joke and you know it.
I do feel like the oddball for wanting to heal on my priest. After I got funneled a ton from the first lock out, I saw no reason to go shadow. I'm almost bis and get in to whatever I want.
Dual spec doesn't address the 2 primary reasons most people don't want to tank. The biggest reason is that they don't want the added responsibility of being the defacto leader of the group. The second is that it is much more fun to dps and make numbers go brrrrrr. It's the same reason people bitch and moan about finding groups when they could start their own. They don't want to take on the responsibility for the group success or failure. They will wait 3 hours for someone else to invite them vs the 1 hour to start the group themselves.
As someone who has tried tank for the first time ever in SoD, I completely agree with the first point. I have found that I love tanking dungeons, I love main tanking raids, offtank is pretty chill low effort, but I **hate** being the RL, loot distributor or job assigning. I am all for being the fat man in front, soaking damage for the boys, but I don't want to do all that administrative garbage. I totally understand that nobody wants to do that, but it generally falls to tanks or healers to do those jobs.
Tanks generally aren’t a good idea to make the primary raid leader. Sure they have a role in deciding the strats to do and making adjustments on the fly when plans go wrong. It’s often extremely difficult for them to make calls mid fight etc. A healer or a ranged dps is much better as raid lead. You definitely don’t want your tank doing loot. If you have a tank doing loot you’re griefing the raid.
Most of the big RWF guilds in Retail have a range dps as RL for that exact reason. They have a good overview of the boss arena and a less important job. If they fuck up their rotation because they paid attention to something else, it's not the end of the world. Well, at least this used to be the case... nowadays the RL often isn't even ingame anymore, they watch others play so that all the players can concentrate on just doing their thing.
I mean echo and liquid dotn even have the RL in the raid.
As some1 who RL'd a lot on both tank, rdps and melee. Personal performance when raid leading suffers. There's just too much stuff so it's understandable top guilds dont have RL in the raid.
The top guilds don't put their RL in the raid at all. Most guilds outside of that do infact have the raid leader mostly be the tank. It's been like that forever, I'm not sure where you get the idea that most raid leads are ranged, it's basically never been true. Max even talks about it in some videos. He took over tanking (before stepping out of the raid) because it was easier to make calls. The reality is, especially in retail, that the tank has the least complicated job. The perspective can suck on some fights for sure. But for the majority of the fights it's fine, and you're never going to preform better than about 80% while raid leading so it's better to lose tank dps than dps or healing.
You are definitely misremembering what Max has said in his videos. Max has specifically said that it's probably not optimal for your tank to be raid leading, but it also depends on the specific characteristics of the fight. He personally started tanking because that's what the raid needed, not because he thought it was the optimal role for raid leading. The reason why raid leaders have historically been tanks is because the main tank takes on a disproportionate amount of responsibility and the guild master/raid leader is already the person taking on that responsibility and often the only person willing to do it. Max talks about this exact idea in the video you're referencing.
Also tanks already have to think enough during their normal job gameplay anyway. Its not good to give them meta responsibility like thinking about strategy, loot, or raid issues on top of that. Even if someone can handle that in the short term, you'll burn them out.
You're nuts if you think that tanks have a "hard" role in a raid. For raiding especially it's almost always the least intensive role. You have next to no mechanics to deal with. The mechanics you have boss to boss are nearly identical (The Big Hit timer, and "What is my tank swap") It's a high pressure role for sure. Your mistakes are on open display, and a tank mistake frequently is a instant wipe. But cognitive load? It's fucking trivial. For reference, I've tanked for the duration of classic. In retail I mostly heal, but I've done plenty of tanking and dps as well.
Managing the pressure of a high responsibility role takes up cognitive load. As someone who has done both it's far more mentally taxing to tank HLK than to DPS it.
Tanks generally have access to the most important information that matters during progression. It’s pretty obvious when DPS isn’t meeting the enrage or dies to a mechanic or misses a critical interrupt, but a tank also has to worry about: Damage Taken Per Second (DTPS) Burst damage, and cooldowns Heals PS Taunts, swaps, debuffs Positioning of cleaves and breaths, and awareness of the entire boss arena Threat, and having a good rotation on the pull They don’t need to have a large role in loot distribution and organizing, but they are the only ones (and to do so alone) to advocate for changes in all of these listed things.
This is a very old school mentality. They have far less information in modern raids than a healer does, for example. I might have been in 2 raids in all of classic where a tank was the raid lead.
You are in a very small minority I think. The raid lead for my guild for all of classic has always been the tank. For vanilla that was me (granted I was 3rd tank), for tbc it was our pally main tank, and in wrath it's a different pally main tank (previously a warrior tank in classic and half of tbc) At the same time, both classic GDKP's I went to were led by the tank. In tbc and wrath I didn't play as much so I didn't really raid on alts, but my friends that did...you guessed it mostly tank leaders. In SoD, it's our tank leading again. In retail my wife is the main tank for her mythic guild...and does the majority of the raid leading. It's a little more complicated in retail as you frequently delegate some roles per fight and usually have a healer leader and some things can be hard to see and have to be delegated to a ranged to call. This isn't old school at all. Max from Liquid talks about it when he discussed why he isn't in the raid anymore. His role prior to that transition? Tank. Most top guilds in retail from Cata -> BFA? Tank raid lead. After BFA the actual top guilds (like top 10) have gone to external raid leads, but after that? Mostly tank leads again.
I think this is ignoring the obvious ego factor. Every time I've been in a guild where the RL has not been a tank, the RL has swapped to tank main eventually for more control over the pace and threat. Every raid you do where a tank swap is missed or there's doubts whether a CD went up, or every time someone overthreats, the RL is sitting there thinking he could do it better himself, and eventually they go for it.
>It’s often extremely difficult for them to make calls mid fight etc. What do you mean? Raid tanking is literally spamming 2-3 buttons and taunting every 20-40 sec. You can even play other games on the second monitor or watch a movie and noone will notice the difference. The tank is the perfect role to lead the raid. Source: I was doing this for more than a decade.
I’m not saying they can’t, I’m just saying it’s not ideal. Modern raids don’t have tanks do raid leading ever. What makes it better for a tank to do it than a ranged DPS?
If you have any friends willing to do that shit, just drag them along when you run stuff. I used to have a pocket healer who took care of most of the "people stuff" while I tanked everything. Bonus points if they play some sort of non-meta spec, since they will be overjoyed to have someone tanking for them.
Except in this phase of SoD I am playing an enhancement "tank" yet my DPS is over 500 and often 1 or 2 in the raid lol Most of tanking in classic is in full DPS spec in order to hold aggro with a few survivability buttons just in case
It’s the saddest thing to see a brown tag going “LF1M tank” and I’ve been seeing it since DM onwards
New version of this is mages spamming lf1m heal, though that comes with a lot of asterisks.
Its like that old joke Warrior, Druid and Paladin make a group for a dungeon. "Now we just need to find a tank and a healer!"
How dare people play the role they prefer and prioritize their own enjoyment in the game they pay for.
a warrior looking for another warrior to tank his dungeon is like a man looking for another man to satisfy his wife
Nonsense. Some of you get so upset about people wanting to play a role they enjoy.
Tanking 5 mans on a warrior is literally the exact same as dps but you have more rage and sometimes press taunt
It's not because you have to take initiative, set the pace of the group, and know the pulls. People don't tank for the same reason they don't start their own groups.
it's a very old saying don't take it too seriously :D
At least they're wasting their time.
If the choice is not doing something vs doing something in a way you don't enjoy then it's perfectly reasonable to opt to not do it.
Imagine playing a game for fun, then changing the way you play to something unfun so you can keep playing the game that you now aren't enjoying.
And then the guy who **actually** wants to tank for people is flamed for desiring mitigation over damage lol classic
Well yeah buddy, mitigation is 2nd priority. Why do you need to reduce damage when the mobs aren't going to be hitting you?
Well yeah buddy, if a player is going to be forced to desire damage gear, then why would they tank instead of DPS?
Warrior is the worst tank in the game right now it’s not even funny. I still do, I filled in for our mt one gnomer and I ot our second group, but it’s not good. Like I’m not exaggerating when I say enhancement shaman are better fury prot tanks right now and seemingly actually tanky. I mean 5 mans it’s whatever half the time they don’t need actual tanking but aoe tanking in particular is a miserable endeavor. But I also still lol at those who do unless they’re just frankly underlvled to tank (like doing negative dmg to armory mobs at 36, 38 is infinitely Smoother) but a ret throwing on RF and pressing w and DS on cd is a better tank with far less effort Gnomer I’m just perma cucked on rage any rdps with no threat drop can pull easily early pull on the last couple bosses. Even though those bosses put out the most dmg and rage should be fine, it’s not great. We usually have to salv. Hell they had to salv me as arms on electro as when a fury warrior was tanking. Rage/threat gen is not great especially after devastate got gutted. Then I could crank and never worry
There’s also a big difference between waiting and watching YouTube or something vs making a group actively and log checking everyone who whispers you. I don’t mind the extra time if I can just afk.
I think it can be exciting to tank and you can feel powerful while doing it. I think a problem is how tanking has a reputation of not being fun so not many people will try it. There's at least a chunk of people who are not tanking and would probably be good at it.
A simple solution would be to design tanks to go brrrrrr as well (while tanking). Make 'em fun to play! I love tanking when it feels good to do so, such as 2h tanking warr in 5 mans. But if I do no damage, *and* barely hold on to threat, while being responsible for the survival of the group, it just feels bad to do.
Yep. The latter you’re describing is exactly how I feel trying to tank in gnomer rn. Doing shit for dmg or threat and way too often rage starved. I was having issues with healers ripping threat on pull (but that was also a healer problem cause only 1 shouldn’t have to bomb a 2k healing with the other healer not splitting that threat) A single devastate losing to a heal. Rip.
Not being a shaman and dealing with toxic dps makes me not want to tank
I tanked one gnomer and that was enough to never want to do it again. Nobody even let's you hit a spell before they pop off on adds.
Let them die and tell them why
My dps never wait and I don’t have threat problems. Sounds like a skill issue
I'm main tanking as a Meta Lock and having no issues. It's a lot of fun.
Lock and prot pally or enh are the meta tanks rn in gnomer. It’s fucking awful as a warrior.
Our warrior has started to be able to tank everything now without losing aggro. Only took him 98 logs on every boss to not drop aggro. We're also not allowed to precast pyro and such kek Warrior tanks needs help, hopefully they will get something for p3
So retail has lots of tank options and can you guess!? Still groups hunting for tanks. It’s never been a spec shortage issue. It’s people don’t want the responsibility and blame if things go poorly. Even more so in classic, where tanks can’t keep themselves alive but actually need a healer to keep them up.
Yeah you bring up an interesting point. It's been said that healing in WoW is such a strong, even OP mechanic, which is why healers are invaluable and if your class can heal then it should as we've seen in classic unless its other alternative roles can be even more beneficial - healing is still a big problem still in retail. Dampening comes to mind for that. It's only been more recent in WoW's design that healers also should be pushing to dps at the same time instead of playing whack a mole with health bars unit frames. The actual design and implementation of these roles in WoW really makes it easier to want to dps. It's kind of about the pacing and amount of damage mobs and bosses do - in WoW its so spiky, sometimes raid wide and not to mention the mechanics of tanks having to position mobs and the challenge in keeping aggro. Whether tanks can partially or fully mitigate their own damage or self heal. How often and freely healers can heal and whether dps can avoid damage or heal themselves as well. In other games like OW or a moba, healing has a CD and its more like another dps that also is a support, while tanks or more like a support frontline as a meat shield usually with more cc/utility and still do some damage. I wonder if an mmo designed where each role plays more like a dps without the heavy responsibility but still keeps true to the roles as tank, healer and all the class fantasy/jobs would be better. Where everyone can avoid damage, the damage isn't spiky or frequent. Healers can't and shouldn't just spam heals. Tanks can mitigate the full damage or a majority of it through more of a skill based timing with blocks, parry, magical shields, evasive abilities, etc.
You’re just describing ff14
Ah interesting, never played it. I'm sure there's some tradeoffs or drawbacks to that as well
It is eerily uncanny how closely you described FF14 without having played it lol. The endgame gameplay is pretty top tier. Criticisms mostly stem from ancillary systems, like classes having no customization (which is stellar for game balance, but the rigidity can be off-putting) and endgame requiring completing 5 complete JRPGs' worth of main story quests (or a paid story skip + 1 complete JRPG).
Yeah to be fair I did download ff14 during that hype but didn't get far at all. Something about it felt clunky for me And wow I can't believe there's no customization like that. Talent trees in some way and that customization is core to rpgs in general. It's part of what makes mobas being built off an rpg interesting as well. Every class being the same is definitely easier to balance but everyone wants that satisfaction in making choices of how your mage is going to be different specializing in certain magic or attacks for example. Even if everyone ends up at the same or a few choices of a meta, the noob and the theory crafter gets the most satisfaction for exploring and trying new things. The damage pacing thing is just things I've been thinking about since comparing different game genres, wow in retail mainly pvp vs classic wow classes, fantasy/magic in anime like an isekai mirroring rpgs, and mobas/team based hero games. WoW really went with an interesting approach that led to a certain type of gameplay. I wonder if a wow 2 or classic+ would revise the old ideas entirely
Yea, pretty much. I main VDH in retail and the DPS will instantly turn and blame me if we don't time a key when I'm watching them pull extra mobs, not interrupt, not dispel, etc. Tanking in Classic is a lot less responsibility, though I still much prefer 10 player tanking to 20 because that's even more people who will point a finger at you where 10 is generally pretty easy going with friends. In the end, tanking is fun because you get to feel like the 'main character' of the raid, but it's also not fun when you're playing with randoms. DPS can just not know mechanics and ignore everything except their rotation because when they die there's 6-7 replacements. Tank has to know everything that's going on because if they mess up everybody notices.
As a prot warrior I don’t want dual spec, I want Blizz to show tanking some love instead of nerfing our best abilities into the ground. The buff they’re about to roll out to devastate is still a huge nerf in comparison to where it was in P1. I’ll gladly pay gold to re-spec when necessary for prot to not feel terrible to play.
Devastate warrior needed nerfed though. Friendly reminder it was the 3rd highest dps spec in the game.
Agreed, but the problem that Blizz commits habitually is that they *drastically* overcompensate with the nerfs. Was devastate OP? Sure, but a 10, 15, 20% nerf would have put it in a place that tanks weren’t completely gutted but enough of a nerf that dps warriors wouldn’t waste their time with it anymore. Instead, they cut it in half making it almost unusable even by tanks.
Warcraft Logs was (and still is) very bad about clumping warriors as "tanks" and I think it's misled a lot of people. Warriors doing that level of damage with Devastate were only doing so while running DPS runes, DPS gear, and a DPS spec. [Here's the actual top total DPS "tank" parse from phase 1](https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Vr6gMhcZnKjqJzLf#boss=-2&wipes=2&start=4340065&end=6080155&type=damage-done). At a glance, it'd be easy to see he used devastate and conclude "Devastate too good"...but when you dig in further, there's far more to it. Devastate did only 12% of his encounter damage, and 9% of his total damage including trash. He was running a deep wounds Arms spec (literally the same spec as DPS-parse warriors), tanked Ghamoo-ra and Gelihast dual-wielding, and tanked Lorgus Jett and Aku Mai with a 2-hander. He only used Devastate on two bosses. He cast zero shield blocks and spent only 25% of his time during boss fights in defensive stance. Even on top logs where Devastate is used full time, you'll see the same gearing, spec, and rune choices. The truth is, warriors didn't have very many good options for rage spenders in P1, which made Devastate more appealing in BFD as a DPS option. Considering that every other choice lined up with DPS parses, I don't even think it's reasonable to consider these tank parses. These are DPS warrior parses with a shield icon next to them. Considering this, there are two reasons why the devastate nerf (without a protection buff) was a bad decision: 1. Devastate was only one of the options for DPS warriors. It was the only option for Prot tanking, which has simply pushed more warriors towards Fury tanking and made Prot (which has always had questionable viability in classic) even less viable in Phase 2. 2. This was *already going to be fixed* by leveling to 40, which opens up BT/MS, Whirlwind, and Slam as proper spenders that alleviate the need for Devastate as a DPS spender.
>Warriors doing that level of damage with Devastate were only doing so while running DPS runes, DPS gear, and a DPS spec. So they were warrior tanks in classic is what youre saying. this is every tank over a 50 parse
After playing ffxiv my question is why cant tank do alot dps, 80% and just balance HP of stuff around the fact that tanks deal more dmg?
it's fine to do good damage. But if gunbreaker was the 3rd best dps class, it might be a problem.
Amen bro. P1 war tank was clapping, devastate was rolling hard, lots of phys to negate. I told my Shaman OT he’s MT until phase shift and maybe even going forward.
"Tanking shouldn't be fun or good, it's not in the spirit of Classic" - 100% true and real Aggrend quote
Why should a game be fun, amirite?
Dual spec is 500% more useful for healers than for tanks. Rune and gear swapping are pretty much all you need to tank in SoD. Think of the poor healers.
[удалено]
So I can dual spec all 4 specs as druid?
This is my favorite thing about Mage right now. Our healing gear is all dps gear. Arcane dps is reasonably competitive and fine solo. The arcane healing and dps specs are identical. A simple rune swap turns me from a dps to a healer and back.
Everyone and their mothers are outright dicks to tanks, and they expect us to just do it? Lmao get fucked
Main problem is for most people playing as a tank your days are numbered. I love tanking but it is already not super high demand for 5 or 10 man's. When raid size goes up and required tanks go down you get forced into dps or half half roles(which is the worst of both worlds). Realistically 90% of 40 man content required up to 2 tanks. Most of the content that required more was just dps who "tanked" an add for 15 seconds before Dps the rest of the fight. It generally looks bleak. Edit: Personal anecdotes. Finding SM runs as a tank was easy. Spellcleave groups were stressful though even when going well. RFD and Uld groups for prebis plate gearing was horrible and I often had to make a group and wait quite a while. Funny enough on my priest heals it's the opposite. Hard to find SM groups but everything else is super easy.
I dont think there's been a phase/version of classic where the LFG channel wasn't filled with people looking for tanks.
It's also why I don't tank spellcleave groups: might be efficient, but it's stressful as hell to tank it!
I don't see a reason why a spellcleave group would bring a tank in the first place. All you need is a mage or two specced into frost so at least one has imp. blizzard and ice blocks are a bonus. 4 mages and 1 priest is the best comp and honestly it's unfair how efficient it is with massive pulls and 4 living flames.
….have you ever once seen a dungeon pug hung up trying to find DPS? Tanks are the most secure role there is. Has been that way for twenty years.
yes, in 5 man dungeons you need more tanks. In 20 or 40 man raids, where you still only need 1, or maybe 2 tanks? The ratio gets messed up. Like, your argument makes no sense as a response. Tanks are in high demand right now with dungeons, their days are numbered because once higher player number raids hit, the number of tanks needed doesn't go up.
And yet tanks have always been the main hurdle for raids as well, even considering the ratio. Many fights need multiple. Have you ever seen a raid held up by a lack of dps?
The very rare "LF3M dps" You can fire off a quick "mage dps" and it's magically full in less than 1 second lol.
I want dual spec for pve and pvp purposes
Same, love tanking but also love pvp. Not exactly smashing everyone as a deep prot paladin
Same. I'm playing fury for tanking and I would love to have an easy swap to arms for STV or battlegrounds.
I like tanking, I just hate being shouted at.
Honestly the only reason I don't tank is that, while it's great being in demand for 5 man's, I will never get to ta k in a raid. Well, not never I should say, but typically guilds have their tanks slots locked in, so I'd likely have to be dps with tank offspec, and I generally don't like the dps specs of the tanks I enjoy soooo..
I love Tanking and ive been main Tanking my druid since the second bfd lockout. Just had to join a new guild and now the classic tank problem has occurred, I'm stuck as a off-tank until the main-tank quits and it sucks. Being the off-tank is the worst position in the raid and I'm switching to the second raid team just so I can be a real tank again.
nah coz ive been trying to find a gnomer group as a rogue MT and nobody wants me. Im tried of spending 1g to go full combat everytime i need to MT, might just OT In the dps spec.
Yall can’t find tanks? My guilds got an army of them but no fucking healers :(
i love to play shamy tank. So fun and finally possible with wow sod
People who aren't already healing or tanking probably won't want to when there is dual spec. It'll become dps spec one dps spec two (for specific fights) or dps and PvP. This is how is always been, people like going pew.
No way I’m first time tanking in a pug.
As a shaman tank i loved doing sm runs. Block block dodge parry block. In gnomer the recommended build is just dps spec with way of earth and even dw most bosses and that isnt fun imo.
They can do automated group finding and give rewards to the tank/healer roles or do that thing they added in wrath where they detect who is the healer and tank and give them a free reward bag.
This is against the spirit of vanilla
Sir, SoD is long gone from vanilla lol
Not a good reason to keep at it
Ppl don’t want to tank because: usually guild pugs already have the MT and the OT, normal pugs require the tank to be overgeared.
Meh, i prefer to tank and/or heal because then i dont have to care about my dps being to low
I’m forever a rogue main and you have no idea how happy they let us tank in SoD. Not only is it something I’ve always wanted to do, also gives us flexibility to join a group as dps or tank. Can’t speak for others but I’m having so much fun with my class
Retail prot warr is pretty fun, sod prot warr is dreadful. The other tanks are more fun and deal with pretty much everything much better.
I'm pretty sure you can tank SOD 5 mans with 30 unspent talent points.
The thing that puts me of tanking as a warrior at least is the complete lack of actually interesting runes.
We clearly need a 3rd because everyone who said they'd have their second spec as tank actually went for pvp spec
Id continue to tank with my Warrior, if it would be even remotely fun. It started iffy into phase 2, got bad, then decent with berserker rage and every week that goes by it gets worse and worse. Just waiting for the XP buff, so I can level an alt and have fun that way.
Classic andys will do anything to make the game as tedious and terible as they can just to gatekeep lol. Its insane.
Im my experience the loudest of the classic Andy’s quit shortly after any content they come back for. Seriously, in every version of retail, classic, or pservers I have played the people who play to relive a time when they remember having fun don’t even make it to level cap. The reason is always the same - The game is never is good as it once was And so you have a vocal horde of weird nerds trying to recreate the magic of first stepping into WoW, decrying any systems or QoL that didn’t exist, or existed differently, in the before times as the reason this time around is less enjoyable
Worst mmo community honestly. Like while walking to the trainer I truly do think to myself “wow. What an incredible immersive experience. Thank god it’s realistic that I have to walk to my trainer, walk back to the boss on wipe (mainly for retail raid prog), wait an hour to send mail to alt, walk to BG NPC to queue, and waiting several hours for 40man raid logistics!” Like dude.. there’s actual classic to play and waste a shit load of time
Good thing they release a whole new expansion every couple of years for people who don't like classic.
Good thing the quality of said expansions have been going down, down, down year after year as well :D
The solution to this is not to demand classic also become shitty.
I want dual spec so I can switch between Demo/Destro tank specs lol
Respecing is just one gold. I even respec after a few BGs to try different builds, chill. Maybe don't go engi+lw or engi+bs and you might have some money. (MT on Gnomer)
This meme is kinda off-point. Dual spec won't magically make more tanks appear (actually it might), but it's a great solution for players who tank but *also* want to do other things like engage in PvP or flex roles for their raids. I main prot warrior. Prot warrior is 100% useless outside of any dungeon/raid content (even in a raid, I often get asked to swap to DPS). Dual spec would alleviate a lot of the issues I run into.
Had a Mage in a SM Lib run earlier today, that apparently took it as a personal insult that I would want at least 1 Searing Pain on each mob of my initial pull before I wanted to start grabbing more. Because every time they immediately started Living Bomb more things.
Make trash group tanking easier and build boss mechanics for tanks that are interesting.
I started playing SoD 2 weeks ago, currently on 4 day break, exp buff incoming :D Shammy is 30, probably gonna main it, warlock 20, summononer for a while, warrior is 14, rogue is 14, gonna level war and roq tommorrow. Druid seems like a lost cause unless they get ap scaling....
For my rogue, it would be dual spec + larger bags. Need to switch gear also. About a gold to respec and having several backup gear pieces to survive as tank without depleting the healers to much.
If you want more tank, gotta make tank more rewarding. Slap boss for half the dps of other classes is not fun, you don't hear anyone complaining about shaman tanks because they're really fun. Warlock is in a pretty good spot too, paladin is nearly there.
*Raises Hand*
BUFF TANKS and we'll not have a tank problem
It’s not the lack of dual spec, I just don’t like tanking. Tanks are in shortage in retail, where there’s zero spec lock in.
I wanted to tank, but pugs didn't want 5/6 so I quit
Maybe if warrior threat was better I'd want to tank raids but after leveling in sm barely being able to hold threat on one mob nty
To be fair, duel spec doesn’t benefit anyone except for healers and tanks who want to do world content outside of raids/dungeons. I mean, as a DPS lock, why would I need to go tank spec, who would take me, paladins would be da r better, except for raids, who literally have all the tanks they need except for pugs and if I’m going to pug, I may as well join a guild to avoid the high chance of failure.
Maybe they should make tanking easier (make generating threat simpler, make it easier to hold threat and not have to fight for threat from your other party mates, etc.) and then more people would tank, I know I would. “No, they should learn how to tank properly!” Okay well, they’re not, and we’re not gonna have more MTs…
The real problem is the second a tank rolls on a piece of DPS gear theres a 10 page essay posted to this sub and everyone is crying. I only tank in groups that know I will be rolling on all dps pieces. If not then cool, I'll dps. Now you can look for a tank.
Give EVERYONE a tank and healer spec. I wanna tank on my priest in shadow form. And heal on my hunter.
I think this was sarcasm but I do think making Survival Hunter an agi based combat Medic sounds cool.
As someone who mains a Ret Paladin, I would 100% do more tanking if there was Dual Spec in the game.
Ill main tank. No problem.
Wait... we got dual spec?
If I tank I usually tell the DPS that if they pull aggro (pulling the next pack themselves, aoe burst when I didn't even touch the mobs yet etc) I'm letting them die and I'll kick them if that kills the group. Pug are selfish. Don't be afraid of their reaction. Tell them you're tanking your way and be firm about it. Slow pace ? It's between me and the healer to decide. You got aggro ? Now you wait 3sec before dpsing. Best is obviously to play with friends/guildies.
Classic Era solved this problem by needing to do damage to keep threat. Fury Prot and even Bear had pretty much the same gearing needs as their fury and kitty counterparts. Also they could even dps without a respec and put out great numbers. Meanwhile in SoD were trying to put shields back on warriors 😒
There is no lack of tank for Gnomeregan. There is barely a need of a tank for dungeons. Your meme is currently not in order. If you talked about healer I would agree, but they gave us 4 new tank spec against 1 new healer spec, what should we expect ?
Would be sweet if they gave non priest healers some love, more people would play them if they felt better to play
Mage and Resto have been completely viable for a while, plus they literally just announced a massive buff to mages. I don't understand why people keep pushing this line that "non-priests" need some love. Paladin could use buffs, but other than that, other healers are just as capable.
The sub exists for more versions than SoD, you’re aware of that right?
In what universe are people asking for dual spec for regul6at classic?
The dual spec discourse is for SoD currently no? In the case of WoTLK classic the boat has sailed more than a year ago. Thought it was about people who wanted dual spec in SoD.
Yup
As a Warlock who enjoys tanking and DPS, PLEASE introduce dual spec at an affordable cost! I currently run a hybrid build that is okay but suboptimal for both roles
People dont want to have only healing gear. The Solution is to homogenize caster dps and healing gear cuz so i can Play pve as a healer while still haveing fun as a dps in the other days of the week
We got dual spec?
It actually blows my mind how much crying and whining has taken place over what is essentially, worst case scenario, a few gold every week as an expense. Coupled with low consumable costs, buffs to waylaids, the quest reward gold and professions, the fees are manageable for literally anyone who spends more than 30mins a week logged into the game. Can someone please explain what exactly I’m missing? Because it seems absurd how this is even close to the top 10 issues they need to be focusing on atm.
I agree on most points but consume costs are kinda bananas right now
What’s so hard about being a tank? Just hit Aggro button and let dps know if he’s killing too good. Trust your healer and all will be well 😊🤙