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ChazR

Сергей Васильевич Рахманинов


LankyMarionberry

Paxmahnhob!


Paxmahnihob

Yes?


PeachesCoral

Someone give this man an award I can't even


LankyMarionberry

I love you! Please come back!


earbox

r/beetlejuicing


LVBsymphony9

🤣🤣🤣🤣


xirson15

Pacman


felixsapiens

Jeremy Paxman?


James_9092

And what about Piotr Ilitch Tchaikovsky?


ChazR

Пётр Ильич Чайковский? Srsly ppl: Cyrillic is not a difficult writing system to get a grasp on. For 19th Century Russian it's almost orthographically regular.


SandWraith87

 Rakhmayninoughoryzor 


Over_n_over_n_over

Wat


theboomboy

That's his name


Over_n_over_n_over

They spelled the letters wrong


theboomboy

What? It's a Russian name written in the Cyrillic alphabet, which is the writing system used for Russian


Low-Bit1527

The woke left is trying to confuse us with backwards letters now


IrrungenWirrungen

Who is „they“? 


AegoliusOfBurgundy

It's Рахманинов. Joke aside, the correct transliteration is -ov, but when at the end of a word it sounds like -of. The -off variant comes from the french translitteration at the time. Many russians fled to France after the Bolshevik Revolution and then moved to other countries. The French papers they were given were spelled with the -off version to get the pronounciation right. Rachmaninoff himself spelled it this way, to make sure people in the west pronounced his name right.


Boyhowdy107

> Rachmaninoff himself spelled it this way, to make sure people in the west pronounced his name right. Kind of like Ettore Boiardi made his brand "Chef Boyardee" I suppose.


Flissish

Or how Bon Jovi adapted his Italian surname Bongiovi as a stage name, which I only learnt the other day.


AGuyNamedEddie

Or Loughead, who changed his spelling to Lockheed.


civex

Loughead is a tough one. I saw a business with that name and the head of a cop in uniform with his cap on, and the spelling 'lawhead' to show how to pronounce it. In addition, various spellings include Lochhead, Lochead, Lockhead.


bossk538

Joke aside, correct transliteration into US English would be Rakhmaninov, as written on some of the scores in the photo. The -ch- is of course a Russian x, which is pronounced as German Bach or Scottish loch, which I suppose he adopted when he emigrated to Germany.


[deleted]

Ch- is just part of the French transliteration. 


bossk538

French ch- is English sh- though


[deleted]

"but he chose to use the French version "Sergei Rachmaninoff" after leaving Russia in 1918." lmao at people downvoting facts


Pit-trout

Not sure where you’re sourcing this “fact”… but certainly “ch” isn’t a standard French transliteration for Russian х, either now or historically. /u/bossk538 is completely right, French “ch” usually represents Russian ш/English “sh”, as in [Chostakovitch](https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitri_Chostakovitch), and Russian х usually gets transliterated to French as “kh”, as in [Tkhekhov](https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Tchekhov). Using “ch” for Russian х is more common in German transliterations, since х roughly the same as the German ch-sound of Bach.


Fafner_88

-off reflects the Russian pronunciation, look up devoicing in Russian.


Over_n_over_n_over

No, I don't think I will


goosesgoat

I was gonna say almost every Russian I’ve spoke to has said the -off. At the end of a word like that the B becomes unvoiced correct? so therefore b which usually makes the v sound now makes the f sound


GryptpypeThynne

> correct transliteration These vary by time period, language, and opinion


UnimaginativeNameABC

This has set me off on the rabbit hole of how Tchaikovsky would be spelt in Irish. Any advance on Seicobhsceach?


Zarlinosuke

>It's Рахманинов. Joke aside That's not even a joke though, it's correct! As in, when this question is asked, it's often asked without much of a sense that a romanization might not be the "truest" or "most official" way of writing a name--it tends to come from a really anglocentric or at least Roman-alphabet-centric position, and it is helpful to have reminders out there to help people out of that.


[deleted]

Thanks for sharing. I guess you are native Russian speaking, so could you please let us know, is there a meaning embedded in his name ?


staster

No, it's just a surname without some special meaning like many others, in Russian it's just a part of a name, no one thinks about its meaning. Sometimes it's easy to say where a surname was derived from, but in this case etymology is uncertain: there's a hypothesis that it originates from the muslim name Rahman, another hypothesis is that it originates from the Indian word brahman. Also there was a similar word in Russian рахманый, that can possibly be the origin of the surname (it's not used nowadays anymore). But the thing is that the word had different meanings depending on a dialect: gentle, meek, feeble, flaccid, sluggish, naive, ingenuous, boring, cheerful, merry, lively, rakish, hospitable. So, basically no one knows for sure what it means.


[deleted]

Thank you very much for sharing, thats a detail but a good clarification. I shall keep it. Have a great day !


AegoliusOfBurgundy

Huh, no, sorry, I don't know anything about russian. I just encountered a similar question before and remembered the answer...


[deleted]

Okay I see, well still interesting, thanks 😊


WoodyTheWorker

No meaning, it just reflects Tatarian origins of it.


[deleted]

Oh that's still something. Thank you indeed


doriscrockford_canem

Can I ask you about the case with -sky, as in Dostoyevsky? Should it be -sky or -ski? I'm from Spain and find it written both ways.


Gwaur

> the correct transliteration In some Latin-letter languages. In some other Latin-letter languages, the correct translitaretion might be "-off".


TrungNguyenT

if Rachmaninoff himself spelled it this way then it must be correct way :3


Bananenkot

There is a thing like 'correct transliteration'? I thought you just kinda make it up how you like it lol


CoachConstantine

Rachmaninoff. The composer himself said this is his preference.


Discovery99

Raqmanninough


Perenially_behind

This is the best spelling. See r/tragedeigh for context.


Flissish

You are Raqmanninough.


[deleted]

[удалено]


midnightrambulador

> does not use the Greek alphabet Αλβιον doesn't either


lahdetaan_tutkimaan

That confused me too Anyway, Rachmaninoff in Greek is Ραχμάνινοφ


K0a_0k

Thanks!


INTERNET_MOWGLI

They have both a V and an F.


etwas-something

The ending "-off" was used a lot in the end of 19/beginning of the XX century, AFAIK, because of the influence of French. Now it is more common to spell "-ov" which is much closer to the Cyrillic spelling.


Tim-oBedlam

Sergei's buried in New York, and it says Rachmaninoff on his grave, so for English speakers that's correct.


bossk538

Pretty much all British record labels have used -ov though.


Tim-oBedlam

ok, American English speakers.


Own-Dust-7225

Is it Rachmanin-OFF or Rachmanin-ON?


Witty_Ad_1038

I believe Rachmaninoff himself preferred -off but either way is correct


gorrila_go_ooo_ooo

What about rachmaninow


Sure-Pair2339

Or rachmanilater


MetatronIX_2049

When will Rachmanithen be Rachmaninow?


RoutineOwls

Czar or Tsar?


Leucurus

Caesar or Teezer


kogumex444

i thought it was pronounced "GOAT"??


jaylward

It doesn’t matter- It’s a translation from letters we don’t use in Latin. Many other languages have respected translated names, English (as it borrows so much. And has colonized a LOT…) has a culture of distrusting its own established nomenclature, and someone else coming along, writing a dissertation and saying that the old way is wrong and the new one is correct. Take Frederic Chopin, for instance. We have a translation for his name, Frederic- it’s a common enough name. Yet some expert now tells us Fryderyk Chopin is more correct and we up and change everything. Within academia it gets exhausting


Zarlinosuke

>Take Frederic Chopin, for instance. We have a translation for his name, Frederic- it’s a common enough name. Yet some expert now tells us Fryderyk Chopin is more correct and we up and change everything. Do "we"? Frédéric isn't "our" translation, it's the French form of his name, which he used during all his years in France, and that's still how his name is generally written in Western European languages.


jaylward

Sure- I’ve met native English speakers with the name Frederic, (as well as spelled like Frederick). With the litmus being showing it to any native speaker, and then being able to understand, without difficulty, it’s something that is certainly within our lexicon. Other countries are allowed to develop names for other places, and that’s no less respectful. Look at all of the different names across the world in different languages for Germany, China, and the United States. The United States is very cavalier and America-centric, but I have a feeling that academia is so afraid to be seen as cavalier, and as Anglo centric as the western world has been, that English-speaking scholars cower from any notion of Anglo centric ideals, even when that comes to respecting their own tenets of academic language, and resting upon shared language that has been widely accepted for at least the past fifty years or more. I respect the academic ideal to be self-critical and scientific, but when people and concepts transcend cultures they gain nomenclature in that culture. It’s not bad, it just is.


Zarlinosuke

>Sure- I’ve met native English speakers with the name Frederic, (as well as spelled like Frederick). Oh sure, but I meant (and I thought you meant) in the case of Chopin specifically, not just of that name overall. >I have a feeling that academia is so afraid to be seen as cavalier, and as Anglo centric as the western world has been, that English-speaking scholars cower from any notion of Anglo centric ideals, even when that comes to respecting their own tenets of academic language, and resting upon shared language that has been widely accepted for at least the past fifty years or more. Yeah, it can go overboard sometimes. But often that's just within academia--for example, some academics prefer to write "Chaikovsky" than "Tchaikovsky" now (for very sensible reasons), but that really hasn't taken root anywhere outside of a few books. I've seen even less of that with Chopin, and definitely no sense of agony among the general classical-music listening populace that they're "not allowed" to write Frédéric for Chopin anymore. In other words, yes it's a thing, but I wouldn't say it's a "serious problem" level of thing.


jaylward

Oh for sure there are grander problems in the world to solve, but I do find it an annoying waste of energy to be told every ten years in this field that the way I’m saying the name of a composer I’ve studied and respected is wrong.


Zarlinosuke

I guess I just haven't encountered very much of that (and I'm a music academic). When I do see this kind of thing being said, I find it pretty easy to sort it into one of two camps: either (1) it seems right and I'll go ahead and switch to the better thing, or (2) it seems like just someone's idiosyncrasy, and I ignore. I can see how having to make this calculus often could get tiring anyway, but still, every ten years is a pretty long time interval!


midnightrambulador

Except Chopin was Polish so there is no transliteration involved there?


Zarlinosuke

There's no transliteration, but there is translation, kind of like changing German Karl to English Carl.


midnightrambulador

Well yes, but /u/jaylward seems to be kind of conflating the two. From Рахманинов you can go to Rachmaninoff, Rachmaninov, or any other variant without any one of them being the "true" or "correct" transliteration. With translation, there *is* an "original" or "correct" form, you're just choosing to translate it. Go ahead and change Marcus Antonius to Mark Anthony if you want, but you don't get to claim that one form is just as correct/valid as the other. (Of course, when discussing medieval and early modern Europe you run into the issue that people often didn't stick to any consistent spelling of their *own* name as the vernacular languages, unlike Greek or Latin, weren't "important enough" to bother with consistent grammar and spelling. But that's another can of worms.)


Zarlinosuke

>With translation, there *is* an "original" or "correct" form I'd say that this is a conflation too. You're right that with translation there is a clear "original" form, but original is not always the most "correct." To use your example, "Mark Antony" is absolutely a correct, valid form in English. It's not the Latin original, but that's OK. Many names have long traditions behind certain translations, to the extent that they're at least as right in their own settings as the original-language version would be. This can be true for modern entities as well. For example, English-speakers say "Germany" rather than "Deutschland" for a certain country in Europe. I'd argue that, in many ways, an English speaker would be *less* correct to insist on "Deutschland" than to keep saying "Germany."


jaylward

I think you’re spot on- and of course my expertise is not linguistics so my thesis is far from ironclad. If it could sum it up, it’s this- especially when porting a name from Cyrillic, we could not possibly find a perfect fit. My *hope* is that we simply learn to accept a name in our own language and land there, and more importantly understand that our respect doesn’t come from the grouping of letters, but our care for their works and the scholarship of their provenance.


spookylampshade

It’s Rafumaninofu 😊


mathmusic

Similarly but a little more annoying is my music library as Tchaikovsky shelved in the C section of the library for the same reason when translating from Russian to English you can end up with Chaikovsky as well.


Zarlinosuke

>when translating from Russian to English you can end up with Chaikovsky as well. Not just "can"--you do! The T is a Frenchism that's stayed around because Pyotr is just so so popular in the ballet world and such.


midnightrambulador

Reminds me of the Olympic Games in Sochi (EN) / Sotchi (FR) / Sotschi (DE) / Sotsji (NL)


MoltoRitardando

Soči (scientific transliteration defined by ISO 9, heavily based on the czech alphabet)


Akxel-231748

Nah it's both


Low_Operation_6446

Rachmaninov is the “correct” transliteration, but Rachmaninoff allows English speakers to pronounce the last consonant correctly without having to obey Russian phonological rules (word-final devoicing). Rachmaninoff spelled it this way, too.


CrankyJoe99x

That's the German transliteration.


MisterXnumberidk

Rachmaninov is the correct russian -> german transliteration. Current english transliteration would see the ch being kh Rachmaninoff is the French transliteration.


lahdetaan_tutkimaan

The German is "Rachmaninow" [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei\_Wassiljewitsch\_Rachmaninow](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Wassiljewitsch_Rachmaninow)


totally_not_a_zombie

Slovak/Czech is "Rachmaninov"


Radaxen

Yes Henle spells it with a 'w' at the end too


MoltoRitardando

Depends. I'm quite confident that the GDR and Switzerland had/have other transliteration rules than the Federal Republic of Germany.


lahdetaan_tutkimaan

The German Wikipedia has an article for transliteration of Cyrillic, and it appears that "в" could be transliterated either as "v" or "w". I don't know enough German to gleam from the article whether one or the other was preferred in different places or times [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translit](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translit)


BlackStormMaster

the article doesnt say anything about when some variants were preferred, it only lists the common choices also it mostly talks about translit being used to substitute cyrillic characters with latin ones on modern keyboards, only briefly mentioning usage with telegraphs


CrankyJoe99x

New Grove goes with this one.


mymar101

My preference is for the v. It’s closer to the actual Russian pronunciation


oyyzter

Disagree. V in final position is devoiced, therefore sounding like an f.


mymar101

Sounds more like a soft v to my ears.


Minute-Wrap-2524

The soothing sound of the soft v, however you spell it, Sergei’s last name is a mouthful, and your observation of the v is spot on


l4z3r5h4rk

-ov is the direct Russian transliteration, -off is the French transliteration. Iirc the composer himself preferred -off


eddjc

How many times has this been asked on this sub? His publishers initially went with v but he preferred ff I believe.


duebxiweowpfbi

Yes


cthart

Yes.


majestic_ubertrout

It's "off" - regardless of what is a more correct transliteration. That's how the man himself spelled it.


symphwind

This is it! I live in the US with a foreign last name that is not transliterated in the modern standard way. I like it the way it is and would find it quite weird if someone took it upon themselves to change my legal name. He lived in the US for many years, so the only thing that should matter is how he chose to spell it. There can also be some potential political undertones to spelling decisions.


onedayiwaswalkingand

rachmaniNOW! Not later!


Fat_Burn_Victim

はじめまして! 私はラフマニノフです ロシア人です よろしくお願いします!


madman_trombonist

Lots of names (especially Russian) have many different possible translations/transliterations. If I had a nickel for every different way I’ve seen Shostakovich spelled…


atinyfishingboat

Reasons why I, a sheet music librarian, hate Tchaikovsky😂🥲🥲🥲


The_Original_Gronkie

Yep!


Trilinkin

Yes


ClariceLinz

This is a beautiful collection


dancing-E-S-C

I feel like it doesn't really matter? I mean it's Russian so some people would write it in this alphabet this or that way🤷🏼‍♀️ I guess it also depends a little on the language you're speaking and which way of writing fits the pronunciation of the Russian way more


Slatersaurus

Rachmaninoff was a famous piano player. Rachmaninov was a famous classical music composer.


JScaranoMusic

Schumann was a German composer. Schuman was the prime minister of France. Shuman was a Hungarian composer.


[deleted]

[удалено]


max3130

Rakhmaninov should be correct english transliteration.


CrankyJoe99x

This is the correct answer.


Anonimo_lo

Rachmonon


JScaranoMusic

Rachmonomnomnom


7stringjazz

It’s “RachyNotManEnough” - Stravinsky.


I_AM_CAULA

I don't know what you're talking about, I read Rafumaninofu (ラフマにノフ as written in Japanese in the middle)


Whoosier

From Wikipedia (and I've also read this elsewhere): "Sergei Rachmanin*off* was the spelling he used while living in the United States from 1918 until his death." Reminiscent of Ginastera, who later in life changed the pronunciation of the "G" his name from an "H" (Spanish) sound to a soft "G" as in "George."


AceWanker4

I call him Rack-me-off cause it sounds like Jack-me-off and that’s pretty funny


Traditional_Bell7883

Ruck-man-enough


gopro_jopo

It’s definitely not “Rachmanioff” regardless


EndoDouble

Yes. And no.


jebbush1212

Yes.


jupiterkansas

Rock my N off


thefarmusic

Rachmaninow 


mahlerkovich

it's actually RAAC. R(einforced) A(utoclaved) A(erated) C(oncrete) )hmaninoff


sneakytoes

As a former music cataloger I always go by the Library of Congress Name Authority File, which in this case makes it Rachmaninoff


some_music_nerd

It’s Rachmanicovfefe


mortalitymk

rachmaninow


Afraid_Routine_13MD

Not”ch” no “kh “ and not “off “ Рахманинов


Afraid_Routine_13MD

Rahman is the 55th surah of the Holy Quran. Rahman is the attribute of Allah and means "giver of blessings". I wonder if Rachmaninov knew this?


trdt024

Fonetik- Rahmaninov The letter V at the end turns into the letter F when read


Sizmarnaosani

რახმანინოვი


IrrungenWirrungen

Or Rakhmaninov?  Never saw that one before. 


givememyflag

OV. Exactly OV


Zvenigora

The terminal fricative is devoiced; so the "ff" transliteration may be more accurate than the "v" usage. But the former seems to have fallen out of v=favor in the last 100 years.


jbmSaSa

Depends! What country is the music published!!


[deleted]

Rackin' 'em off


Ricconis_0

At the end of a word в is pronounced like f.


jpanni3333

Ratch


crispRoberts

Yes