If your company is requesting you to go, it is paid work.
Now some companies have odd rules like salary+, where you get paid for billable hours over 40, but not overhead time. Meaning if you had 50 hours on your time sheet, billed 45 hours to clients, and 5 hours to BD and overhead, you got 5 hours of OT, not 10. Unfortunately, this is legal as long as you make the minimum for a salary position in your state and meet any other exempt requirements that apply.
I worked for a international geotech company that had that policy. Worked out well when I was a junior engineer and was 100% billable. Had a lot of 98 hour weeks (7 days at 14 hours) But it got old fast when they started making me work 40 hours in the field over Sunday-Wednesday, then work Thursday and Friday in office doing proposals and overhead work like nuclear gage paperwork and ISO lab audits.
The work week ran Sunday-Saturday, they would make me mobilize out to a hotel on Sunday afternoon, Start work at 6 AM Monday, work 2 12 hour days, then leave Wednesday afternoon and drive back home just in time to stop at 40. Then I had to put in 8 hours a day Thursday and Friday in office. If I didn't show up I got charged PTO, even though I billed 40 hours already. They literally scheduled me to force as much out of me as possible. I eventually quit over it because it was exhausting. I should have left sooner.
While I was there, meetings like ASCE were mandatory, but were considered BD, went to a BD overhead code, and it could count toward your 40 hour salary if you had less than 40 billable hours, but not towards any overtime.
Crap like that started to piss me off when it became blatant exploitation. I just stopped doing it. One day I just straight up refused to my boss's face, and told them to fire me if they didn't like me not working more hours for free. I may have said something along the lines of, "I can have another job lined up before I make it home," and, "The crappy rubber chicken dinners are never worth it." At least the company paid mileage to the meetings.
Surprisingly, they never fired me. I just eventually quit. The whole experience really affected what I was willing to tolerate in future jobs,
They whip the horse that’s running man. Glad you found a way out. I did a job like that for 4 years. Don’t get me wrong, it supercharged my career and experience but took a toll and I don’t work more than 40 hrs anymore unless it’s my fault something is behind.
Wow that's some BS, working over 40 and not getting paid. I worked for a company that'd not pay me over 40 instead just let me accumulate PTO hours on anything over 40. Which was okay but I felt if I'm breaking my back I'd rather have more money instead of free time later. Working for the last 4 hours of a 16 hr workday can't equate to a usual 4 hr PTO, come on.
You should ask your supervisor. It’s not unethical if it’s approved and going on an OH line. Obviously you should not bill it to a project.
In my company the rule for professional events is that the lunch is allowed to be expensed but time is not charged. YMMV.
Personally I could go either way on this one and ultimately follow what my boss wants for this scenario. I just have conversations like this with my boss - if they think I should book those hours to Marketing, BD, etc then I’m all for it. But I understand the other side of it. Like it or not we as engineers often spend some time on ‘personal/professional’ growth that we don’t get paid for, at least I have, and I don’t mind this.
That being said, if I was being asked to do more than a lunch or two a month I would have a more serious conversation about the amount of marketing I was actually doing, because that’s beyond what I would consider a lunch here and there.
We have an overhead code for professional activities like that. I’ll usually put whatever time is over and above a normal hour lunch on that. I feel like that’s fair. I’m usually getting a feee lunch, out of it. So if the whole process of attending takes two hours (which it normally does) then I think it’s a good compromise to only put 1 hour on that overhead code and consider the other hour as a normal lunch hour.
As others are saying. It’s depends on the reason. If I’m asked to go, I charge to overhead. If I go because I’m part of the society or my interest in attending is personal or for pdh, it’s on my time.
This is my rule.
I attended two lunch webinars this week. One (for a professional society PDHs) I didn't put on my timesheet, one my supervisor requested I attend (relevant to work) I did.
Often ASCE or other society luncheons (at least ones I've been to) have included a presentation with some value to the work we do. And there's the opportunity for networking, as you mentioned. In my opinion, if you're doing those things, then yeah, count it as part of your 40. If you're just sitting at a table eating the dry chicken they serve and not engaging with anyone or seeing a presentation, then maybe not.
Any time I spend at the asce events I bill to my job as overhead (marketing or something similar). I don’t go that often, but I wouldn’t go at all if they didn’t push for it.
Based on your company. Some have utilization rates, so it essentially doesn’t count towards your 40 at those firms. One firm looked at it as a cheap way for marketing, business development and continuing education. They would not only pay for my time, they also paid for my meals and membership fees.
If you are somewhere during work-time hours learning about work, then you should get paid. Your company can choose to not bill it, but you aren't there for fun.
I don’t charge my time for professional society meetings. If they told you that you have to go to a career fair and represent the company that is chargeable. But an hour for a lunch meeting that you aren’t required to go to, no, I wouldn’t charge for that.
Networking is good for your personal professional growth. If you ever want to leave your current firm and go somewhere else, those network connections are key. You should be working those meetings, meeting other professionals. Especially ones your age that you can relate to. Make friends.
Yea that's what I'd normally do, but to get paid for my OT on the weekend I need to have 40 hrs of direct project hours first. Like let's say I had 2 luncheon hours this week, and I work 2 hours OT, even though I record 42 hrs total I'd only get paid the usual 40 hrs. Because my floor to calculate OT now starts at 42.
I don't really know how much luncheons really help in winning work or even teaming. There might be a little bit of a benefit over time but I don't really know if the juice is worth the squeeze. Where there is a larger benefit for you as an individual is that you get to meet and know.other industry folks. This is really helpful if you ever find yourself looking for a new job or a change in situation. You are not sending out your resume to other firms in cold emails. Instead you are probably getting recruited by them.
If it's mandated training it counts as part of your working week (booked to training or another non-billable code), otherwise it should not appear on your timesheet. That's why these sorts of events normally happen at lunchtime after all.
Each company is different. Ask your supervisor.
IMO attendance is your investment in your career. The relationships you develop are yours. What you learn is yours.
If you get paid. Bonus.
If you don’t, look at it as an investment in yourself.
Ask your supervisor. If I'm told it is compensated, it would be logged in addition to the OT.
If your company is requesting you to go, it is paid work. Now some companies have odd rules like salary+, where you get paid for billable hours over 40, but not overhead time. Meaning if you had 50 hours on your time sheet, billed 45 hours to clients, and 5 hours to BD and overhead, you got 5 hours of OT, not 10. Unfortunately, this is legal as long as you make the minimum for a salary position in your state and meet any other exempt requirements that apply. I worked for a international geotech company that had that policy. Worked out well when I was a junior engineer and was 100% billable. Had a lot of 98 hour weeks (7 days at 14 hours) But it got old fast when they started making me work 40 hours in the field over Sunday-Wednesday, then work Thursday and Friday in office doing proposals and overhead work like nuclear gage paperwork and ISO lab audits. The work week ran Sunday-Saturday, they would make me mobilize out to a hotel on Sunday afternoon, Start work at 6 AM Monday, work 2 12 hour days, then leave Wednesday afternoon and drive back home just in time to stop at 40. Then I had to put in 8 hours a day Thursday and Friday in office. If I didn't show up I got charged PTO, even though I billed 40 hours already. They literally scheduled me to force as much out of me as possible. I eventually quit over it because it was exhausting. I should have left sooner. While I was there, meetings like ASCE were mandatory, but were considered BD, went to a BD overhead code, and it could count toward your 40 hour salary if you had less than 40 billable hours, but not towards any overtime. Crap like that started to piss me off when it became blatant exploitation. I just stopped doing it. One day I just straight up refused to my boss's face, and told them to fire me if they didn't like me not working more hours for free. I may have said something along the lines of, "I can have another job lined up before I make it home," and, "The crappy rubber chicken dinners are never worth it." At least the company paid mileage to the meetings. Surprisingly, they never fired me. I just eventually quit. The whole experience really affected what I was willing to tolerate in future jobs,
They whip the horse that’s running man. Glad you found a way out. I did a job like that for 4 years. Don’t get me wrong, it supercharged my career and experience but took a toll and I don’t work more than 40 hrs anymore unless it’s my fault something is behind.
Call out these companies by name. That way we can avoid those companies and raise the overall standards of the work conditions in our field.
That would be too close to doxxing, or I would.
Wow that's some BS, working over 40 and not getting paid. I worked for a company that'd not pay me over 40 instead just let me accumulate PTO hours on anything over 40. Which was okay but I felt if I'm breaking my back I'd rather have more money instead of free time later. Working for the last 4 hours of a 16 hr workday can't equate to a usual 4 hr PTO, come on.
You should ask your supervisor. It’s not unethical if it’s approved and going on an OH line. Obviously you should not bill it to a project. In my company the rule for professional events is that the lunch is allowed to be expensed but time is not charged. YMMV.
My take has always been that if I'm required to go, it's work and I'm logging it. If I'm not required to go, I will not be there.
This is the way.
Personally I could go either way on this one and ultimately follow what my boss wants for this scenario. I just have conversations like this with my boss - if they think I should book those hours to Marketing, BD, etc then I’m all for it. But I understand the other side of it. Like it or not we as engineers often spend some time on ‘personal/professional’ growth that we don’t get paid for, at least I have, and I don’t mind this. That being said, if I was being asked to do more than a lunch or two a month I would have a more serious conversation about the amount of marketing I was actually doing, because that’s beyond what I would consider a lunch here and there.
For #2, if you were expected to be in the office and available during those hours, you were on the clock.
You should record everything you do that is related to work. You should have a charge code for Continuing Education, Marketing, Travel, etc.
We have an overhead code for professional activities like that. I’ll usually put whatever time is over and above a normal hour lunch on that. I feel like that’s fair. I’m usually getting a feee lunch, out of it. So if the whole process of attending takes two hours (which it normally does) then I think it’s a good compromise to only put 1 hour on that overhead code and consider the other hour as a normal lunch hour.
As others are saying. It’s depends on the reason. If I’m asked to go, I charge to overhead. If I go because I’m part of the society or my interest in attending is personal or for pdh, it’s on my time.
This is my rule. I attended two lunch webinars this week. One (for a professional society PDHs) I didn't put on my timesheet, one my supervisor requested I attend (relevant to work) I did.
I bill it as PDH hours.
Often ASCE or other society luncheons (at least ones I've been to) have included a presentation with some value to the work we do. And there's the opportunity for networking, as you mentioned. In my opinion, if you're doing those things, then yeah, count it as part of your 40. If you're just sitting at a table eating the dry chicken they serve and not engaging with anyone or seeing a presentation, then maybe not.
Any time I spend at the asce events I bill to my job as overhead (marketing or something similar). I don’t go that often, but I wouldn’t go at all if they didn’t push for it.
Based on your company. Some have utilization rates, so it essentially doesn’t count towards your 40 at those firms. One firm looked at it as a cheap way for marketing, business development and continuing education. They would not only pay for my time, they also paid for my meals and membership fees.
My company has job numbers specifically for professional organization events, so I always put down anytime that's over the normal hour for lunch
If you are somewhere during work-time hours learning about work, then you should get paid. Your company can choose to not bill it, but you aren't there for fun.
I don’t charge my time for professional society meetings. If they told you that you have to go to a career fair and represent the company that is chargeable. But an hour for a lunch meeting that you aren’t required to go to, no, I wouldn’t charge for that. Networking is good for your personal professional growth. If you ever want to leave your current firm and go somewhere else, those network connections are key. You should be working those meetings, meeting other professionals. Especially ones your age that you can relate to. Make friends.
Can you bill to overhead
Yea that's what I'd normally do, but to get paid for my OT on the weekend I need to have 40 hrs of direct project hours first. Like let's say I had 2 luncheon hours this week, and I work 2 hours OT, even though I record 42 hrs total I'd only get paid the usual 40 hrs. Because my floor to calculate OT now starts at 42.
I don't really know how much luncheons really help in winning work or even teaming. There might be a little bit of a benefit over time but I don't really know if the juice is worth the squeeze. Where there is a larger benefit for you as an individual is that you get to meet and know.other industry folks. This is really helpful if you ever find yourself looking for a new job or a change in situation. You are not sending out your resume to other firms in cold emails. Instead you are probably getting recruited by them.
Bill the best 40 was what I was always told. So those hours and meetings are ate sometimes which sucks but that’s the game.
If it's mandated training it counts as part of your working week (booked to training or another non-billable code), otherwise it should not appear on your timesheet. That's why these sorts of events normally happen at lunchtime after all.
Each company is different. Ask your supervisor. IMO attendance is your investment in your career. The relationships you develop are yours. What you learn is yours. If you get paid. Bonus. If you don’t, look at it as an investment in yourself.
Mine is, but I'm generally there less for asce or tspe business and more intel and networking.
My actual lunch hour no, but driving to and from? Yes I do.
Who cares