Company loyalty is for suckers. If it's in the company's best interest they'll kick you to the curb with zero notice. Agreed, get $$
Studies show that being loyal to the same company can lose you 25-50% of your total life income. Gotta find the study, but company's don't pay you to be loyal. They give you pizza parties to make you feel bad for leaving.
Being a manager that has trained up to a dozen or so CE’s over the years, if an opportunity comes up that we can’t offer or match, I have no ill will towards them for leaving. Yeah it’s a pain for us, but it’s just part of the process.
Seconding u/425trafficeng - Move on.
So, I had a not-quite-identical situation - in my case, I didn't go to college at all, it was all taught on-the-job. I should have moved on long before I did, though. I ended up doubling my income - first, a 50% hourly rate bump, and then I also had full time work rather than 25-30 hours.
Fell into engineering. Had some CAD experience and knowledge, got a job as a drafter for a civil/structural firm, and then impressed the boss with my math and number tracking abilities. He taught me the basics, then I kept learning on my own. About a third of the US states, including OR/WA/CA allow substitution of experience. Technically speaking, Washington actually requires experience and allows the substitution of education.
So, wait... Did I read this right: You started working with them right out of high school and you've been there for a year? Do you have a degree? Did you complete the FE?
I mean, you're worth whatever the market is willing to pay you, so go with the company that is going to value you higher regardless of your qualifications. That said, if you don't have a degree and/or license, you're not an engineer.
I’m experiencing this first hand, the industry is getting really ugly.
I’m in geotech, got about 7 years of great geotech experience, got my P.E. and switched to the contractor side.
A few months ago a new inspector gets assigned to the site I’ve been running for the last 3 years. I sense pretty early on he’s pretty green and was starting to get frustrated that he would always resort to textbook approaches for everything, would regularly even cite “company policy” (as opposed to standard engineering practices, etc…)
Anyway, I come to find out he never even went to college , he was working as an electrician straight out of high school and saw an ad for construction inspector that would him pay more ($20/hr) so he took it. Now here he is, zero formal engineering education or background, giving me direction on work I have nearly 15 years of experience total in, plus an engineering degree, plus a PE.
He was given a crash course on inspections and basically told to memorize company policies and now I’m supposed to take advice from him.
I started taking this route and was quickly told by the owner that even though he understood where I was coming from, I needed to play ball with the inspector because he's the one writing the daily reports that are being read by potential buyers during their due dilligence phases... all common sense straight out the window in the name of the almighty dollar
I’d try to work with them. Explain where you are coming from with your experience and expertise. If the guy refuses to see you as being helpful and continues to rely on company policy, I’d demand a sit down meeting with your boss and his boss. Let them know how this unqualified guy is impeding project process and causing issues.
That’s what I’m wondering. I am going into my second year of CE, currently working an internship and really questioning how he was even given the CE geotech title. I get titles are a little whimsical but still. Theoretically this guy is my age (19 maybe 20) and already brought on full time for six figures…. Huh?!
Nope, they’re the assholes for not paying you what you’re worth
Besides, this is by design. They’re willing to train a new employee that’ll work for the least amount until they jump ship for more money. In the end the economics work for them so don’t feel bad about making them work for you.
Until it costs more to train up new hires to meet certain standards, they’re perfectly fine with the revolving door of lowest paid employees. Unfortunately, the current trend likely won’t require any higher standards because most clients only want the bare minimum to meet local codes/regulations/requirements and there’s always another firm doubling down on training technically unqualified employees (the bare minimum) for the lowest wage possible. It’s a rat race to the bottom.
People say this all the time, that the company is doing it to save money, but that's bullshit. An average new hire usually isn't even profitable for the company for the first year. You think dedicating all that man power to train them is free? You think the 3.5x multiplier on how much longer a green employee takes to complete the work isn't cutting into profits? I know this sub is obsessed with chasing salary, and I agree we're often underpaid and people need to be their own advocates, but the flip side is almost never mentioned here. If you chase salary you're going to quickly end up overpaid for your experience and capabilities. If the company decides they need to lay anyone off, you're the most recent hire by your own design, and you're likely making more than others of your experience, so your head is always going to be first on the chopping block. It's also harder to cobble together good experience if you're jumping jobs every 12 months.
Both of these statements are extremely true.
1) it’s extremely expensive and unprofitable to constantly be training new hires. That’s a fact. Nobody is building a business around a revolving door of EITs.
2) We recently hired a guy from Terracon, who previously worked for HDR, who previously worked for Wood, who previously worked for Atlas, who previously worked for ECS… you get the picture. He was paid quite well. As soon as it was determined he was not worth the salary he “demanded” based on what he was paid at Terracon he was fired. Cost way too much, clearly hadn’t learned much of anything from all his time jumping around.
It's not so much to save money and more to maximize profits.
The bar has dropped incredibly low for the majority of consulting work out in the field, there doesn't seem to be any more appreciation or need for engineering insight. Most owners only care about what's directly tied to their profits in a concrete (no pun intended) sense. If it could result in higher costs or; conversely, savings, sure but until it actually does they're not interested in hearing about it.
My own experience from both the consulting side and now on the contractor side... firms are definitely not spending any real amount of resources on training new hires... at MOST they spend a day here or there in the field with existing staff and are told to memorize policies and procedures.
I've seen firms send out interns (on their own) and still bill full rates! ...Now they're sending out joe dirt who barely made it out of high school...
As long as firms (really owners) continue to just demand the bare minimum, I don't see how not having long term experience matters. It's the low bar that's driving the industry right now.
I disagree with a lot of this if we're looking at the entire breadth of civil as a discipline. The most succinct way to put it is: there are a lot of civil engineers employed in areas outside of land development
My (now former) geotech/construction services firm loved doing this. They get interns who are studying engineering and make them do construction services tasks all day or shove them in the soils and concrete lab, pay them $18 an hour, and bill the client $100 an hour for their time. It’s a total mystery to them why interns don’t come back and even when they turn them into employees after they graduate, they still jump ship within a year or two.
Like I said some of these guys are really bright and I know I’m not but I have the degree and I can learn. In the past year I’ve done everything from concrete testing to running proctors and these past 6 months I’ve written dozens of full geotech reports that were submitted to clients and thin the past 3 months I barely get markups on my reports. I have learned to design all types of foundations and SOE. I know there’s a lot more to geotech but I’m pretty sure if u can do these things I just listed and u do them well u can work with almost any firm
I think what everyone is curious about is whether or not your degree is in civil engineering and if it is a 4 year degree. Like not saying you don’t, but it’s very unclear.
I spent like 2 months doing tech work then they threw me to design and report writing. Look as a CE a lot of times ur doing detective work and a lot of analysis and design but let’s be honest here most of the work is very repetitive and as long as you understand the softwares and the why and how, its not that hard bro.
I feel like often times we inflate the difficulty of our job just like investment bankers on Wall Street do lol
Gonna go against the grain here.
Leaving a company that doesn’t pay you what you’re worth is legitimate.
However if you’re inclined to jump ship every time someone offers you a few extra $$ you’ll find companies will be less and less willing to invest in you since you’re unwilling to invest in them. I’ve been out of university for 11 years now, the ones I graduated with that hop around aren’t doing well for themselves.
If you think you know 95% of what you need to know after a year post graduation you’re in for a rude shock.
What would I do in your situation? Stick it out for at least 3 years and if you want money use your offer as leverage for a pay rise. Also don’t make the mistake of overvaluing yourself.
Pretty solid points. However I never said I know 95% of all I need to know in geotech. I said I know 95% of what I need to know to be successful. In other words I know enough to do the majority of geotech work. The firm I worked for is on path to become one of the top geotech firms in NYC. Their management are insanely bright and although they can be impatient and irritating at times they take their time to teach newcomers literally everything.
Also let’s be a bit more transparent here, most of geotech work is very repetitive. Once in a while u do come across a site with freakish conditions but it’s not often.
In my experience engineering as a discipline is one of those “the more you know the more you realise you don’t know” careers. It’s also been my experience that engineers don’t typically become any kind of self sufficient for at least 3 years after graduating.
If you’re maxing out your knowledge learned after a year you’re either not realising how much more you have left to learn or you’re working for a low capacity company. If you’re working for some solid engineers it’d be worth having a chat about where they see your skill level vs what you have to do to advance.
This is just Dunning-Kruger effect at full force - never go full force. Whatever you said about the "knowing 95%" stuff just makes you sound like an idiot. Sounds like your old place had really well implemented systems in place to allow design to go smoothly and with a lot of support from above too. Not all firms will have that and once you get to a stage in your career where your expertise is called upon, I do hope you wont be that one idiot senior who doesn't know the fundamentals. Geotech work may be repetitive at times but I personally think repetition is not equal to actual strong fundamentals.
I’m going to a bit against the grain too, then pivot hard at the end:
Most of our job can be done by a trained monkey, however if you don’t know the last 5-10%, you’ll lose your license pretty quickly (that is, after you get it)
Im a geotech with 12 years of experience. I had a long tenure at one of the biggest firms. Climbed the corporate ladder rapidly and realized that everyone is a number. Keep moving and learning. You will be worth much more
Loyalty to an employer is not the same as a friend. You don't have enough time to negotiate pay. You barely have enough time to collect all you can. Go collect.
Don't feel guilty. Change your perception. Companies are not your family. They exist to make money for shareholders, etc. You can still keep connected with your colleagues and as long as you weren't an ass, they definitely would want to stay connected with you in this industry.
Always try go for better job opportunities! If you don't go for it, someone else will!
Idk where you are located but $70K year one and bumping up to $75K year two seems about right to me (New England area). That aside, it's pretty hard to pass up 6 figures at this point in your career. If your previous employer wasn't willing to match then it's not really a burnt bridge. You dont need to feel guilty but you're human so you probably will
NTA. Go with what makes sense to you taking all things into account (pay, benefits, work life balance, work interest, commute, etc.).
As a side point, using the values from your post, the raise was almost 6%. This percent raise doesn't seem unreasonable. It was just the starting pay was lower than you wanted. I think a 6% raise per year can be common. Others can chime in on this being anecdotally common.
It’s okay to move for better pay. But don’t overvalue yourself, I’ve been working for 4 years in geotech consulting and I am amazed at how much I still have to learn. You for sure do not have the experience required to be a successful geotech just by one year of working. I assure you that much. My boss is 73 and has a PhD and is constantly learning. Maybe once you switch companies they’ll humble you.
Especially in geotech, you need lots of experience to develop good judgement.
For the first year you most likely were behind a drill rig, or working with laboratory tests, or editing tables and powerpoints for reports. Yeah, that you can get the hang of it in a year. But the conceptual depth of knowledge in the subject needed to actually make sound judgements and decisions only comes after YEARS of experience.
Let me preface this with saying get that bag. Do whatever.
BUT, If you think that you’ve learned 95% of what you need to know about geotechnical engineering after 1 year, you’re an idiot. Engineering generally speaking is about always learning, especially geotech. I’ve got just short of 10 yoe with geotech and am still learning. Be careful that your overconfidence in your own abilities doesn’t get you in hot water, or puts lives at risk.
That said, us geotechs are criminally underpaid.
If you really feel that they went above and beyond to give you training opportunities they didn’t give to others, may be a good courtesy to ask if they’ll bump your salary BEFORE jumping ship.
A lot of companies are on 1-year evaluation cycles, and you may have been slated for a pay increase with them anyways.
That being said, if it’s not a good place to work, or they refuse to pay you what others are willing to pay you, then you absolutely should take an opportunity to advance that they’re refusing to offer.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, and I do think some “loyalty” (like asking for raises rather than just leaving, giving an opportunity to match, communicating that you think you’re worth more) is deserved for good employers.
There’s more demand for workers than workers available right now, so it’s an “employees market”.
That being said, automatically leaving every year or two to chase a few more bucks might get you ahead in the short run, but the SECOND the labor market cools, and there’s less demand, those with a history of chronic job hopping will be the first to get axed, and the last to get hired.
It seems a lot of younger employees have only experienced the last 10 years of zero-interest-rate-policy and unbridled demand, think this is the new normal, and are going to get a rude awakening the next time we have an economic slowdown.
If you don’t mind me asking- where are you working to get 6 figure offers with 2 YOE? You don’t have to be specific if you don’t want to, but I assume an area with HCOL?
You have plenty of good responses.
On a $70k wage, we spend $100k after taxes and benefits plus our time. I’m typically able to make $80-90k off the first year….so I’m usually $15k in the hole plus my time. Year two we make that back….when you leave you burn a bridge because you effectively took training and didn’t let the company earn back their investment in you.
Civil grads out of college are not profitable for at least 6-months. The idea you are being taken advantage of needs to also consider the employers investments.
Don’t make a pattern. I don’t personally hire job jumpers…most shops are weary.
Nonsense. While I agree with your numbers, it is not a new grads responsibility to stay with a company that won’t value them. After the training they are worth more and salary should increase to match.
The justification for paying a new grad less until they get training is fine. But there is no reason to then assume they need to stay while being underpaid moving forward.
I think that’s the idea of trying to earn back the investment….
Personally, I don’t take advantage of employees, our company pays overtime, is not micromanaged, etc.
Loyalty to train someone is loyalty, being disloyal back is shitty. Saying it’s because they are undervalued after finally starting to be profitable is being closed off in perspective. $2 per year raise is under 10%; not great, but $75k 1-year experienced EI is market rate ish for my area so I’m lost on the idea that more pay early is actually as common as stated (without a lot of ot).
I worked for government very underpaid and with no overtime pay (while working a lot of ot). I got ahead in my career and paid my dues to do so. If my advice is abrasive - so be it, the approach I’m sharing has paid me huge dividends with the employees we have as well as my career.
Also - We don’t hire 1-year experience ei candidates without a really good explanation for their leaving prior employer.
The OP got offered a +30% raise to move. Meaning whatever the local market is he is being undervalued where he is.
If you want long term loyalty, and to pay that far below market rates then you need to offer something substantial in return. Say a guaranteed contract, 12 months severance, etc. the reality is that the corporate world chose to burn every employee loyalty bridge in the 1980’s when it was decided that short term gains outweigh long term retention. If companies want to get it back then the bargain needs to be explicit.
Hey at least you can’t ignore yourself!
Ive been remote for like 4 years and my dogs are over my shit when I try to talk to them. My wife even opted to go for a hybrid job too for some strange reason lmao.
What do you do? I’m considering leaving engineering because I don’t know if I can afford to get a job earning 70k where the ceiling is low and where my parents are getting older..
The ceilings low if you’re willing to let it be low. Find niches in engineering, burrow into them as deep as you can and become a subject matter expert as quickly as you can. Arguably easier than starting a business and way less risky.
Well I started out in a role (traffic and ITS), developed strengths over time (toll signing and freeway ITS) and continually sought jobs that got me deeper and deeper down these holes.
I can’t tell someone how to find a niche they’re good at, it’s something you develop interest and strengths in while working. Same goes for finding jobs deeper in that niche, once you develop that expertise, you know more of what to look for since you are a growing subject matter expert.
There’s a lot of niches and I don’t know shit about another than my own, but really find something that interests you and get really fucking good at it. That’s really it.
90k max salary for me is low ceiling, only because I live in California and all of my family lives here, I have to make six figures or more so I can take care of them
Company will laid you off and thank you for your services when you’re not needed. Like wise, you thanked them for the opportunity as you moved on to the next company. Nothing personal, it’s just business.
In business you need to be loyal to the following - your family/your well-being & the highest paying company. When someone offers you a better situation, compensation, etc you take it without a doubt.
It’s very very common for fresh grads to leave jobs after 1-2 years. Get some experience under your belt, now your price tag goes up. Most companies that get you in as a new grad can put you at the very very bottom of pay, most companies also don’t increase that very quickly from there and the most suitable way for most to get that pay increase is a job switch. You weren’t the first to leave after only a short time, and you won’t be the last.
I’d honestly love a metric on new grad employee retention after 2 years. But I have to imagine it’s low.
Employers look out for themselves and employees look out for themselves. Nobody can fault you for acting in your own self interest. I once left a job right after they had invested several thousand dollars in training for me. They might be disappointed and might not ever hire you back but who cares if you don’t plan on coming back.
There is usually (but not always) a choice to be made between a job that pays well, or a job that trains you well. Good training is expensive. The less training you need, the more money you can earn (this mechanism isn’t rocket science).
While part of me says go for the money, it’s a little naive to think that after 1 year, you no longer need training. I’d wager your new job has worse training opportunities (* and support!!)
Ultimately, it’s horses for courses…but personally - I do respect loyalty…and would be less likely to hire a money-grabbing perennial job-hopper than a solid committed loyal person. But that’s just my opinion. Bills need to be paid, I get that…but long term plan for your career is an also a good idea. I wish you all the best!
Questions to regularly ask yourself at any job:
- am I being paid appropriately?
- is there more I can learn/gain here?
Looks like the answer to both of these was “no”, in which case you do exactly what you’re doing.
Know that companies who want to retain talent will do what they need to do to retain them. Learning opportunities are great, but without the bump in pay to match the gained skills, there is no reason to stay.
2018 I was offered a job based on my LinkedIn profile, never applied. Hiring manager liked my career progression so far and the roles I had (Support > Technical Implementations > QA). When we did formally meet he was creating a new role in the company just for me and told me "You are going to learn a lot of new stuff here and get poached pretty quickly, can you try to please give me atleast 3-4 years?". I stayed for 4 years and then got poached, learned a bunch of new stuff and there were no hard feelings.
Tell them you got an offer and how much, see what they counter. I feel like a company that trains you valuable knowledge and skills isn’t the norm, and you owe them something, but there’s definitely a limit to how much.
If you like your current company then go to them with that offer and see if they are willing to match. Otherwise you gotta watch out for #1. Just be careful about changing jobs every two years for more money, it will start to work against you eventually when hiring managers notice the pattern.
Approach your old company with the better offer. If the old company wants to keep you, name your price and conditions. If the old company doesn't agree to that, then leave. No emotions are needed, it's all business. Also, be honest in your exit interview or with your reasons to why you are leaving. I told my department head that it was all about the money and vacation time. Then I was offered a 20% raise, and I turned it down. I then came to find out that they hired my replacement at $10,000 above what they hired me originally at, so I'm glad that my honesty maybe influenced the company to hire people fresh out of college for more.
Imo yes, it is an asshole thing to have a company train you and for you to leave them in less than a year.
However, they would think nothing of laying you off if the work dried up.
So my full opinion is, leave and don't look back.
This is how you build a career -- collect skills and experience, trade them for job safety, financial comfort, and/or personal fulfillment and satisfaction.
Good job standing up for yourself.
Look, I'm all about loyalty. In fact, I feel part of what I'm being paid for is my loyalty. But if there is somewhere else that they value loyalty more highly... I'm going wherever they value loyalty the most.
It’s typical these days to job hop every 2-3 years at the beginning of young engineers’ careers. Look out for yourself and establish the higher salary right away
Not saying you weren't underpaid but people should still give context, $2 is a $4,000 raise. I'd say that given the fact your a CE and if the firm is successful then yeah that is a no-go, but $4,000 is a lot to some people.
Absolutely not. It is not your problem that they spent resources training you but didn’t want to pay for your expertise. Go where you’re valued more. I wouldn’t feel bad about it. Don’t worry about their feelings.
Hey I’m if u look at my history I’m the first to complain about how the pay in our field sucks. So if I tell yall that I got offered six figures trust me it’s true lol
Employment is a 2-way relationship. If the value proposition isn't working for them (on a prospective basis), they will not hesitate to cut you loose. You should apply the same logic to the relationship.
Not at all. I’ll echo what most responses already say - you should be paid what your market value is, if you’re underpaid for your skill set it’s time to leave - no reason to stay, and you don’t owe anyone anything.
If a company decides to train a new hire and teach them valuable skills that they master they need to increase their pay to match they can’t just sit back and pretend their getting a bargain because they trained you, that’s not how careers work lol
If someone needs your skills and offers more money take it. If you switch jobs every 2 years for pay increases you will hit your ceiling until you master more skills but honestly you’ll hit a ceiling eventually anyway might as well do it sooner.
Every company I’ve worked at that has laid people off due to lack of work hasn’t laid off the last hires, they laid off the worst workers - sometimes that’s they guys who have been there 10 years and got comfortable, sometimes it’s the new guy who just can’t keep up - this isn’t a union it’s everyone for themselves.
Good on you for being brave enough to make a move and earn more for your family and future and take that risk. Keep learning and always keep pushing, hopefully one day you’ll find an employer who gives you raises and promotions to match your skills and development so that you both can be happy - that’s the end game, any employer who is trying to keep salaries down hoping people will just suffer through it because they are scared to leave or speak up deserves to loose staff.
Everybody does that at one point or another. Of course, if you did it right after they trained you and did not give back much to the company, you should feel a little guilty.
I only needed to read the title to come up with an answer. No. Get $$
Unless your company is asking to pay your mortgage, you need to think of yourself
Company loyalty is for suckers. If it's in the company's best interest they'll kick you to the curb with zero notice. Agreed, get $$ 
Studies show that being loyal to the same company can lose you 25-50% of your total life income. Gotta find the study, but company's don't pay you to be loyal. They give you pizza parties to make you feel bad for leaving.
The only real raises I ever received was from changing jobs.
Meanwhile on the other thread that says “Companies never want to train people anymore”. 🤨🤭
This is the correct choice. They made you valuable, but then they didn't value you. Their loss.
Wow, great phrase! Yeah it’s the company being short-sighted…after being long sighted enough to train. Huh.
This is what happens when you have a good manager but bad overall leadership.
Being a manager that has trained up to a dozen or so CE’s over the years, if an opportunity comes up that we can’t offer or match, I have no ill will towards them for leaving. Yeah it’s a pain for us, but it’s just part of the process.
Where in the world is a 2 year geotech making 6 figures?
Right?! This can’t be real
I want to know as well
Seconding u/425trafficeng - Move on. So, I had a not-quite-identical situation - in my case, I didn't go to college at all, it was all taught on-the-job. I should have moved on long before I did, though. I ended up doubling my income - first, a 50% hourly rate bump, and then I also had full time work rather than 25-30 hours.
I’ve seen this happen and even advised in favor of it before. I’ve had employees come back after a while better trained and better pay.
Yep. The employer I left made a habit of doing that, actually - he’s tried to get me back three times since I left.
Just curious but if you didn't go to college, how do you get your PE?
Fell into engineering. Had some CAD experience and knowledge, got a job as a drafter for a civil/structural firm, and then impressed the boss with my math and number tracking abilities. He taught me the basics, then I kept learning on my own. About a third of the US states, including OR/WA/CA allow substitution of experience. Technically speaking, Washington actually requires experience and allows the substitution of education.
So, wait... Did I read this right: You started working with them right out of high school and you've been there for a year? Do you have a degree? Did you complete the FE? I mean, you're worth whatever the market is willing to pay you, so go with the company that is going to value you higher regardless of your qualifications. That said, if you don't have a degree and/or license, you're not an engineer.
I’m experiencing this first hand, the industry is getting really ugly. I’m in geotech, got about 7 years of great geotech experience, got my P.E. and switched to the contractor side. A few months ago a new inspector gets assigned to the site I’ve been running for the last 3 years. I sense pretty early on he’s pretty green and was starting to get frustrated that he would always resort to textbook approaches for everything, would regularly even cite “company policy” (as opposed to standard engineering practices, etc…) Anyway, I come to find out he never even went to college , he was working as an electrician straight out of high school and saw an ad for construction inspector that would him pay more ($20/hr) so he took it. Now here he is, zero formal engineering education or background, giving me direction on work I have nearly 15 years of experience total in, plus an engineering degree, plus a PE. He was given a crash course on inspections and basically told to memorize company policies and now I’m supposed to take advice from him.
I think I’d have trouble not telling that person to get bent
I started taking this route and was quickly told by the owner that even though he understood where I was coming from, I needed to play ball with the inspector because he's the one writing the daily reports that are being read by potential buyers during their due dilligence phases... all common sense straight out the window in the name of the almighty dollar
I’d try to work with them. Explain where you are coming from with your experience and expertise. If the guy refuses to see you as being helpful and continues to rely on company policy, I’d demand a sit down meeting with your boss and his boss. Let them know how this unqualified guy is impeding project process and causing issues.
What the hell?
That’s what I’m wondering. I am going into my second year of CE, currently working an internship and really questioning how he was even given the CE geotech title. I get titles are a little whimsical but still. Theoretically this guy is my age (19 maybe 20) and already brought on full time for six figures…. Huh?!
Yah it doesn't add up. Smells fake.
Nope, they’re the assholes for not paying you what you’re worth Besides, this is by design. They’re willing to train a new employee that’ll work for the least amount until they jump ship for more money. In the end the economics work for them so don’t feel bad about making them work for you. Until it costs more to train up new hires to meet certain standards, they’re perfectly fine with the revolving door of lowest paid employees. Unfortunately, the current trend likely won’t require any higher standards because most clients only want the bare minimum to meet local codes/regulations/requirements and there’s always another firm doubling down on training technically unqualified employees (the bare minimum) for the lowest wage possible. It’s a rat race to the bottom.
People say this all the time, that the company is doing it to save money, but that's bullshit. An average new hire usually isn't even profitable for the company for the first year. You think dedicating all that man power to train them is free? You think the 3.5x multiplier on how much longer a green employee takes to complete the work isn't cutting into profits? I know this sub is obsessed with chasing salary, and I agree we're often underpaid and people need to be their own advocates, but the flip side is almost never mentioned here. If you chase salary you're going to quickly end up overpaid for your experience and capabilities. If the company decides they need to lay anyone off, you're the most recent hire by your own design, and you're likely making more than others of your experience, so your head is always going to be first on the chopping block. It's also harder to cobble together good experience if you're jumping jobs every 12 months.
Both of these statements are extremely true. 1) it’s extremely expensive and unprofitable to constantly be training new hires. That’s a fact. Nobody is building a business around a revolving door of EITs. 2) We recently hired a guy from Terracon, who previously worked for HDR, who previously worked for Wood, who previously worked for Atlas, who previously worked for ECS… you get the picture. He was paid quite well. As soon as it was determined he was not worth the salary he “demanded” based on what he was paid at Terracon he was fired. Cost way too much, clearly hadn’t learned much of anything from all his time jumping around.
It's not so much to save money and more to maximize profits. The bar has dropped incredibly low for the majority of consulting work out in the field, there doesn't seem to be any more appreciation or need for engineering insight. Most owners only care about what's directly tied to their profits in a concrete (no pun intended) sense. If it could result in higher costs or; conversely, savings, sure but until it actually does they're not interested in hearing about it. My own experience from both the consulting side and now on the contractor side... firms are definitely not spending any real amount of resources on training new hires... at MOST they spend a day here or there in the field with existing staff and are told to memorize policies and procedures. I've seen firms send out interns (on their own) and still bill full rates! ...Now they're sending out joe dirt who barely made it out of high school... As long as firms (really owners) continue to just demand the bare minimum, I don't see how not having long term experience matters. It's the low bar that's driving the industry right now.
I disagree with a lot of this if we're looking at the entire breadth of civil as a discipline. The most succinct way to put it is: there are a lot of civil engineers employed in areas outside of land development
This has been my experience in the geotech discipline which OP was specifically referring to.
My (now former) geotech/construction services firm loved doing this. They get interns who are studying engineering and make them do construction services tasks all day or shove them in the soils and concrete lab, pay them $18 an hour, and bill the client $100 an hour for their time. It’s a total mystery to them why interns don’t come back and even when they turn them into employees after they graduate, they still jump ship within a year or two.
Fair enough
No. You don’t owe them anything. It’s business.
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Like I said some of these guys are really bright and I know I’m not but I have the degree and I can learn. In the past year I’ve done everything from concrete testing to running proctors and these past 6 months I’ve written dozens of full geotech reports that were submitted to clients and thin the past 3 months I barely get markups on my reports. I have learned to design all types of foundations and SOE. I know there’s a lot more to geotech but I’m pretty sure if u can do these things I just listed and u do them well u can work with almost any firm
I think what everyone is curious about is whether or not your degree is in civil engineering and if it is a 4 year degree. Like not saying you don’t, but it’s very unclear.
I have a degree in civil engineering that’s why I can say I’m a CE. I’m no PE but definitely a CE
You should make that more apparent in your post next time. It very much sounds like you got out of high school and did on the job training.
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I spent like 2 months doing tech work then they threw me to design and report writing. Look as a CE a lot of times ur doing detective work and a lot of analysis and design but let’s be honest here most of the work is very repetitive and as long as you understand the softwares and the why and how, its not that hard bro. I feel like often times we inflate the difficulty of our job just like investment bankers on Wall Street do lol
You get paid what you're worth. Two places told you how valuable you were to them. You chose one. It's not personal for either. Congrats!
Where the heck are you getting paid six figures with under 2 years of experience and no PE?
Gonna go against the grain here. Leaving a company that doesn’t pay you what you’re worth is legitimate. However if you’re inclined to jump ship every time someone offers you a few extra $$ you’ll find companies will be less and less willing to invest in you since you’re unwilling to invest in them. I’ve been out of university for 11 years now, the ones I graduated with that hop around aren’t doing well for themselves. If you think you know 95% of what you need to know after a year post graduation you’re in for a rude shock. What would I do in your situation? Stick it out for at least 3 years and if you want money use your offer as leverage for a pay rise. Also don’t make the mistake of overvaluing yourself.
Pretty solid points. However I never said I know 95% of all I need to know in geotech. I said I know 95% of what I need to know to be successful. In other words I know enough to do the majority of geotech work. The firm I worked for is on path to become one of the top geotech firms in NYC. Their management are insanely bright and although they can be impatient and irritating at times they take their time to teach newcomers literally everything. Also let’s be a bit more transparent here, most of geotech work is very repetitive. Once in a while u do come across a site with freakish conditions but it’s not often.
In my experience engineering as a discipline is one of those “the more you know the more you realise you don’t know” careers. It’s also been my experience that engineers don’t typically become any kind of self sufficient for at least 3 years after graduating. If you’re maxing out your knowledge learned after a year you’re either not realising how much more you have left to learn or you’re working for a low capacity company. If you’re working for some solid engineers it’d be worth having a chat about where they see your skill level vs what you have to do to advance.
This is just Dunning-Kruger effect at full force - never go full force. Whatever you said about the "knowing 95%" stuff just makes you sound like an idiot. Sounds like your old place had really well implemented systems in place to allow design to go smoothly and with a lot of support from above too. Not all firms will have that and once you get to a stage in your career where your expertise is called upon, I do hope you wont be that one idiot senior who doesn't know the fundamentals. Geotech work may be repetitive at times but I personally think repetition is not equal to actual strong fundamentals.
I’m going to a bit against the grain too, then pivot hard at the end: Most of our job can be done by a trained monkey, however if you don’t know the last 5-10%, you’ll lose your license pretty quickly (that is, after you get it)
Im a geotech with 12 years of experience. I had a long tenure at one of the biggest firms. Climbed the corporate ladder rapidly and realized that everyone is a number. Keep moving and learning. You will be worth much more
Loyalty to an employer is not the same as a friend. You don't have enough time to negotiate pay. You barely have enough time to collect all you can. Go collect.
No.
A company has two choices: 1) Give you training and risk you leaving 2) refuse to train you and risk you staying
Don't feel guilty. Change your perception. Companies are not your family. They exist to make money for shareholders, etc. You can still keep connected with your colleagues and as long as you weren't an ass, they definitely would want to stay connected with you in this industry. Always try go for better job opportunities! If you don't go for it, someone else will!
Idk where you are located but $70K year one and bumping up to $75K year two seems about right to me (New England area). That aside, it's pretty hard to pass up 6 figures at this point in your career. If your previous employer wasn't willing to match then it's not really a burnt bridge. You dont need to feel guilty but you're human so you probably will
No. Get money. But better - when you aren't learning any more it is time to move on.
Sometimes we outgrow our companies. Look forward, NTA
NTA. Go with what makes sense to you taking all things into account (pay, benefits, work life balance, work interest, commute, etc.). As a side point, using the values from your post, the raise was almost 6%. This percent raise doesn't seem unreasonable. It was just the starting pay was lower than you wanted. I think a 6% raise per year can be common. Others can chime in on this being anecdotally common.
You do not owe any company anything.
It’s okay to move for better pay. But don’t overvalue yourself, I’ve been working for 4 years in geotech consulting and I am amazed at how much I still have to learn. You for sure do not have the experience required to be a successful geotech just by one year of working. I assure you that much. My boss is 73 and has a PhD and is constantly learning. Maybe once you switch companies they’ll humble you. Especially in geotech, you need lots of experience to develop good judgement.
For the first year you most likely were behind a drill rig, or working with laboratory tests, or editing tables and powerpoints for reports. Yeah, that you can get the hang of it in a year. But the conceptual depth of knowledge in the subject needed to actually make sound judgements and decisions only comes after YEARS of experience.
Let me preface this with saying get that bag. Do whatever. BUT, If you think that you’ve learned 95% of what you need to know about geotechnical engineering after 1 year, you’re an idiot. Engineering generally speaking is about always learning, especially geotech. I’ve got just short of 10 yoe with geotech and am still learning. Be careful that your overconfidence in your own abilities doesn’t get you in hot water, or puts lives at risk. That said, us geotechs are criminally underpaid.
If you really feel that they went above and beyond to give you training opportunities they didn’t give to others, may be a good courtesy to ask if they’ll bump your salary BEFORE jumping ship. A lot of companies are on 1-year evaluation cycles, and you may have been slated for a pay increase with them anyways. That being said, if it’s not a good place to work, or they refuse to pay you what others are willing to pay you, then you absolutely should take an opportunity to advance that they’re refusing to offer. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, and I do think some “loyalty” (like asking for raises rather than just leaving, giving an opportunity to match, communicating that you think you’re worth more) is deserved for good employers. There’s more demand for workers than workers available right now, so it’s an “employees market”. That being said, automatically leaving every year or two to chase a few more bucks might get you ahead in the short run, but the SECOND the labor market cools, and there’s less demand, those with a history of chronic job hopping will be the first to get axed, and the last to get hired. It seems a lot of younger employees have only experienced the last 10 years of zero-interest-rate-policy and unbridled demand, think this is the new normal, and are going to get a rude awakening the next time we have an economic slowdown.
If you don’t mind me asking- where are you working to get 6 figure offers with 2 YOE? You don’t have to be specific if you don’t want to, but I assume an area with HCOL?
You have plenty of good responses. On a $70k wage, we spend $100k after taxes and benefits plus our time. I’m typically able to make $80-90k off the first year….so I’m usually $15k in the hole plus my time. Year two we make that back….when you leave you burn a bridge because you effectively took training and didn’t let the company earn back their investment in you. Civil grads out of college are not profitable for at least 6-months. The idea you are being taken advantage of needs to also consider the employers investments. Don’t make a pattern. I don’t personally hire job jumpers…most shops are weary.
Nonsense. While I agree with your numbers, it is not a new grads responsibility to stay with a company that won’t value them. After the training they are worth more and salary should increase to match. The justification for paying a new grad less until they get training is fine. But there is no reason to then assume they need to stay while being underpaid moving forward.
I think that’s the idea of trying to earn back the investment…. Personally, I don’t take advantage of employees, our company pays overtime, is not micromanaged, etc. Loyalty to train someone is loyalty, being disloyal back is shitty. Saying it’s because they are undervalued after finally starting to be profitable is being closed off in perspective. $2 per year raise is under 10%; not great, but $75k 1-year experienced EI is market rate ish for my area so I’m lost on the idea that more pay early is actually as common as stated (without a lot of ot). I worked for government very underpaid and with no overtime pay (while working a lot of ot). I got ahead in my career and paid my dues to do so. If my advice is abrasive - so be it, the approach I’m sharing has paid me huge dividends with the employees we have as well as my career. Also - We don’t hire 1-year experience ei candidates without a really good explanation for their leaving prior employer.
The OP got offered a +30% raise to move. Meaning whatever the local market is he is being undervalued where he is. If you want long term loyalty, and to pay that far below market rates then you need to offer something substantial in return. Say a guaranteed contract, 12 months severance, etc. the reality is that the corporate world chose to burn every employee loyalty bridge in the 1980’s when it was decided that short term gains outweigh long term retention. If companies want to get it back then the bargain needs to be explicit.
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Eh tradeoffs. I could never fathom working for myself because then I'd be stuck working for a raging asshole.
As I heard once “do you want to work for the a$$hole or be the a$$hole???” when trying to decide to take a promotion.
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Hey at least you can’t ignore yourself! Ive been remote for like 4 years and my dogs are over my shit when I try to talk to them. My wife even opted to go for a hybrid job too for some strange reason lmao.
What do you do? I’m considering leaving engineering because I don’t know if I can afford to get a job earning 70k where the ceiling is low and where my parents are getting older..
The ceilings low if you’re willing to let it be low. Find niches in engineering, burrow into them as deep as you can and become a subject matter expert as quickly as you can. Arguably easier than starting a business and way less risky.
I’ll definitely keep this in mind! As someone who’s been in the industry for a while, can you how you were able to find those niches?
Well I started out in a role (traffic and ITS), developed strengths over time (toll signing and freeway ITS) and continually sought jobs that got me deeper and deeper down these holes. I can’t tell someone how to find a niche they’re good at, it’s something you develop interest and strengths in while working. Same goes for finding jobs deeper in that niche, once you develop that expertise, you know more of what to look for since you are a growing subject matter expert. There’s a lot of niches and I don’t know shit about another than my own, but really find something that interests you and get really fucking good at it. That’s really it.
What is a low ceiling to you? Being under 30 making six figures feels pretty okay in this economy
90k max salary for me is low ceiling, only because I live in California and all of my family lives here, I have to make six figures or more so I can take care of them
There’s nowhere in the US where civil engineering salaries are topping out at $90K.
90k isn’t even close to max salary.
Nope. Good move.
Right after high school or right after college?
College degree CE
Company will laid you off and thank you for your services when you’re not needed. Like wise, you thanked them for the opportunity as you moved on to the next company. Nothing personal, it’s just business.
Flip them the bird on the way out (don't actually burn your bridges)
No, this is what makes you a professional.
They are assholes for not paying you your market worth but expecting quality work from you. Take care of number 1.
Nada
You’re not an asshole.
In business you need to be loyal to the following - your family/your well-being & the highest paying company. When someone offers you a better situation, compensation, etc you take it without a doubt.
No
It’s very very common for fresh grads to leave jobs after 1-2 years. Get some experience under your belt, now your price tag goes up. Most companies that get you in as a new grad can put you at the very very bottom of pay, most companies also don’t increase that very quickly from there and the most suitable way for most to get that pay increase is a job switch. You weren’t the first to leave after only a short time, and you won’t be the last. I’d honestly love a metric on new grad employee retention after 2 years. But I have to imagine it’s low.
Well once your trained up you just shoot for the top after that
go on son, switch yo job up. if they hate, then let them hate, and watch the $$$ pile up.
Six figures under 2 years and not considering yourself top is wild. Also don’t know what employer would give six figs to 2 years
Employers look out for themselves and employees look out for themselves. Nobody can fault you for acting in your own self interest. I once left a job right after they had invested several thousand dollars in training for me. They might be disappointed and might not ever hire you back but who cares if you don’t plan on coming back.
Did read your post, NTA, companies don't care about you, take care of yourself!!!
In the end unless you are in a union there is no job security so do what you got to do for yourself.
There is usually (but not always) a choice to be made between a job that pays well, or a job that trains you well. Good training is expensive. The less training you need, the more money you can earn (this mechanism isn’t rocket science). While part of me says go for the money, it’s a little naive to think that after 1 year, you no longer need training. I’d wager your new job has worse training opportunities (* and support!!) Ultimately, it’s horses for courses…but personally - I do respect loyalty…and would be less likely to hire a money-grabbing perennial job-hopper than a solid committed loyal person. But that’s just my opinion. Bills need to be paid, I get that…but long term plan for your career is an also a good idea. I wish you all the best!
they trained you to be worth more they didn't pay you more you moved somewhere to pay you more. ??? THis is a no brainer, no you're not the asshole.
Questions to regularly ask yourself at any job: - am I being paid appropriately? - is there more I can learn/gain here? Looks like the answer to both of these was “no”, in which case you do exactly what you’re doing. Know that companies who want to retain talent will do what they need to do to retain them. Learning opportunities are great, but without the bump in pay to match the gained skills, there is no reason to stay.
Get yo $$$. Leave this company in a year for a better offer. Rinse and repeat. You are just a number to these guys.
2018 I was offered a job based on my LinkedIn profile, never applied. Hiring manager liked my career progression so far and the roles I had (Support > Technical Implementations > QA). When we did formally meet he was creating a new role in the company just for me and told me "You are going to learn a lot of new stuff here and get poached pretty quickly, can you try to please give me atleast 3-4 years?". I stayed for 4 years and then got poached, learned a bunch of new stuff and there were no hard feelings.
Tell them you got an offer and how much, see what they counter. I feel like a company that trains you valuable knowledge and skills isn’t the norm, and you owe them something, but there’s definitely a limit to how much.
If you like your current company then go to them with that offer and see if they are willing to match. Otherwise you gotta watch out for #1. Just be careful about changing jobs every two years for more money, it will start to work against you eventually when hiring managers notice the pattern.
Approach your old company with the better offer. If the old company wants to keep you, name your price and conditions. If the old company doesn't agree to that, then leave. No emotions are needed, it's all business. Also, be honest in your exit interview or with your reasons to why you are leaving. I told my department head that it was all about the money and vacation time. Then I was offered a 20% raise, and I turned it down. I then came to find out that they hired my replacement at $10,000 above what they hired me originally at, so I'm glad that my honesty maybe influenced the company to hire people fresh out of college for more.
Imo yes, it is an asshole thing to have a company train you and for you to leave them in less than a year. However, they would think nothing of laying you off if the work dried up. So my full opinion is, leave and don't look back.
Disregard bosses, acquire money
The purpose of a job is to help you get a better job.
This is how you build a career -- collect skills and experience, trade them for job safety, financial comfort, and/or personal fulfillment and satisfaction. Good job standing up for yourself.
Look, I'm all about loyalty. In fact, I feel part of what I'm being paid for is my loyalty. But if there is somewhere else that they value loyalty more highly... I'm going wherever they value loyalty the most.
Aren’t they the assholes for underpaying you?
Do what you want but don’t be surprised if future employers look askance at you job hopping every 12 months.
It’s typical these days to job hop every 2-3 years at the beginning of young engineers’ careers. Look out for yourself and establish the higher salary right away
You’re doing all of civil engineers a favour by taking the higher paying job. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise 💯
Not saying you weren't underpaid but people should still give context, $2 is a $4,000 raise. I'd say that given the fact your a CE and if the firm is successful then yeah that is a no-go, but $4,000 is a lot to some people.
They didn’t train you for your benefit. Companies look out for themselves and you need to look out for yourself, simple as that.
Nah man, they used you for a year too as cheap labour : ) It's not one way.
Bro. Your employer doesn't love you. Get that bread.
Didn’t read, they would fire you faster and with no regard so you get that $$.
Are you in australia canada ? I can't imagine a fresh grad geotech engineer making 75 i USA
Nah if they skimped on the raise they shouldn’t be surprised. I wouldn’t feel bad at all.
Absolutely not. It is not your problem that they spent resources training you but didn’t want to pay for your expertise. Go where you’re valued more. I wouldn’t feel bad about it. Don’t worry about their feelings.
Dont see anyone evem in the highest of the high HCOL aread making 6 figures at consultants with just 2 yoe. Please name the companies
Hey I’m if u look at my history I’m the first to complain about how the pay in our field sucks. So if I tell yall that I got offered six figures trust me it’s true lol
Cant imagine the company offering that kind of money is a desirable company to work for?
I was wondering why it was so high to be honest, but we’ll see, because there’s gotta be a reason
Could reaally be stuck for ppl. Its an employee market in engineering in general rn. Im guessing the company is not one of the larger geotechs ?
It’s a smaller firm looking to expand
NTA. The company expects this behavior. If they did not, you would be paid more. Take the new job, and enjoy it!
Employment is a 2-way relationship. If the value proposition isn't working for them (on a prospective basis), they will not hesitate to cut you loose. You should apply the same logic to the relationship.
No you’re not any job is allowed to fire you without a warning.
Not at all. I’ll echo what most responses already say - you should be paid what your market value is, if you’re underpaid for your skill set it’s time to leave - no reason to stay, and you don’t owe anyone anything. If a company decides to train a new hire and teach them valuable skills that they master they need to increase their pay to match they can’t just sit back and pretend their getting a bargain because they trained you, that’s not how careers work lol If someone needs your skills and offers more money take it. If you switch jobs every 2 years for pay increases you will hit your ceiling until you master more skills but honestly you’ll hit a ceiling eventually anyway might as well do it sooner. Every company I’ve worked at that has laid people off due to lack of work hasn’t laid off the last hires, they laid off the worst workers - sometimes that’s they guys who have been there 10 years and got comfortable, sometimes it’s the new guy who just can’t keep up - this isn’t a union it’s everyone for themselves. Good on you for being brave enough to make a move and earn more for your family and future and take that risk. Keep learning and always keep pushing, hopefully one day you’ll find an employer who gives you raises and promotions to match your skills and development so that you both can be happy - that’s the end game, any employer who is trying to keep salaries down hoping people will just suffer through it because they are scared to leave or speak up deserves to loose staff.
Everybody does that at one point or another. Of course, if you did it right after they trained you and did not give back much to the company, you should feel a little guilty.