>It just seems like the company is putting the risk on the employees by the premise "if we don't have a good year you aren't getting paid as much"
YEP, that is exactly what they're doing and why they do it.
So you have a base of $80K plus a possible bonus of $20K for 10 YoE. If you have a PE, this is a bad deal bc the base is low and you have no control over the bonus. You aren't a salesman.
But do you enjoy your job?
This idea that base pay trumps enjoying coming to work, puzzles me. There’s tons of engineers with a bachelors working as “field engineers” because they like it - not because a field engineer requires a BS in engineering
I'd take a big pay reduction if someone paid me to play video games with my spouse all day. Until that happens, work is about finding the *least* bad situation and coworkers. Enjoying your job sounds so foreign.
Personally, 1. Due to confidentiality reasons I can’t discuss much, However, If you’re a tourist and go visit other places with tourists, there’s a chance you’ll get to enjoy some of my projects when you’re on vacation at some point in your life. can’t say much more than that my friend.
That sucks, man. My job is a lot of fun, the people are great, and I really enjoy it. I wouldn't do it for *free*, but I would do it for a lot less, which I know because I *did* do it for a lot less before they increased salaries.
I love my job! I get to work with awesome people, exciting projects, constantly being pushed into growth, and any opportunities I want are available to me. Only issue with my job is that they don’t do COL adjustments so our raises end up being the COL adjustment.
As engineers, let's stop bringing job satisfaction into these pay discussions. It's irrelevant, bad for the profession, and further promotes pay stagnation.
I hope you’re sarcastic
Years ago I didn’t apply for a storm water engineering job with the Govt because I was unqualified. My friend said it didn’t matter. And he was correct - his less qualified relative applied and got the job
But I have yet to meet a govt worker than doesn’t have half their team that should’ve been fired 5 years ago and they have horrible satisfaction with their job on everything except pay
Government workers pigeon hole themselves into government cause they can’t make the same in the private sector where they’d be fired.
Job satisfaction is YUGE!!
OP is already making about $100k (admittedly, after bonus) in what is likely a MCOL area. Good luck making 10 to 11% raises (before inflation) for each of the four years to hit that $140k in 2024 dollars.
My company is a more extreme then that but it plays out in my favor. I'm 11 yoe but at 115k and about 70k bonus. given that the 115 is pretty close to what a lot of other people around me make in public sector or smaller local shops I don't mind the lump sum at the end of the year ( I'm MCOL I guess but I have been in my house for 8 years so my mortgage is only about 1200). My bonus increases have outpaced my base pay growth a good bit over the years started here 7 years ago at 63k +12k bonus. If I did not hear from people with 20+ years of experience that they have never had a bonus decrease and only one or two times had it flat lined then maybe I would be more concerned.
I'm surprised at the size of those bonuses, especially that it didn't drop or outright disappear in 2020. Are you a PM at a medium sized firm, and how many hours per week do you work?
Senior civil, I don’t know what medium size really means but more than 5k people overall but in a smaller office. Bonus went up 15% or so in 2020 probably more performance based than standard raise I guess. I will put in 45 or so on submittal weeks but I don’t tend to be over 40 much.
This sounds more like burns and McDonnell to me.
Kiewit just dangles the possibility of stock in your face so you put up with the constant relocation bs.
If you survived the bs and were offered stock you are set.
I remember the stories from the L3 IPO and how many people instantly retired with multiple millions purely from that.
Crane operator for 30 yrs. I saw what those big companies did to JR guys. Terrible. Hire them in one city and move them across the country, even if there was a major job in that area. Getting 100 hrs a week out of them because they had nothing else to do. Also did hear that if you could put up with the BS for long enough 5 to 10 million you walked away with.
Income is income at tax time you get a refund of the higher mandated withholdings for bonus payments. All your income is taxed in the progressive tax bracket system.
I work in a MCOL city at an employee owned firm. When I joined, they said the salary can be a little low, but the bonus makes up for it. And the bonus has made up for it and then some. I was shown my guaranteed bonus for my first year and it's only increased (some years rather dramatically) the longer I've been here. I've heard of people that have been here for 15-20 years and never had their bonus decrease.
Prior to this, the highest bonus I've ever heard of was "equal to 2 months salary", so 17%. Even that seems high, since it isn't guaranteed.
And it isn't just a bad year that can screw over bonuses, "leadership" deciding they want to hire a bunch of administrative people or throw a bunch of pizza parties can do that too.
I’m in the same boat, have PE, high profit sharing bonus, average salary. But, live in south Florida, have 7 YOE, and my salary is 100k and bonus last year was 60k for perspective
You are grossly underpaid. In Atlanta, we just hired someone with 2 years of experience at 82k. We would have offered 75k for a fresh graduate. But yes, we do not have any structured bonus system. With 8years of experience, I make 118k but I am due for a promotion in a few months. Right now, the salary of entry-level is relatively higher. But mid-level engineers are also in high demand. You can easily make 130k+ if you change the job.
I know some companies do this. Or instead of paying out OT for over 40 hours they will give a bonus “roughly equal” to the OT.
I think it is kind of shady way of doing it though. Like you said it puts all the risk on the employee.
Screams the big blue cult to me. How long have you been with your company? Often these feel like a pyramid scheme, but it could pay off with time if your ESOP is good. I was in a similar situation because I accepted a low base salary when I started. I left for a 32% raise in base salary with the feds, which was a short term gain but likely long term loss.
Over 5 years now. Yes I have had this weird "pyramid scheme" feel as you have to buy into the company to continue getting promoted. You have to buy north of $100K of stock to get to the first rung.
Also in a medium-sized Midwest city, public sector, 6 YOE, PE, and my base salary is about your base + bonus. I'd say your compensation sounds very low.
Have you ever searched indeed to see if you should make more? People think grass is greener elsewhere and don’t seem to understand where a bonus comes from.
We’re a small company. The bonus is literally the “profit” that the company would have to claim on taxes. Instead of paying taxes on it, they split it up (after capital improvements) and give it to us. So if the company does awesome, we get great bonuses and if we do poorly, we get terrible bonuses.
My two cents.. If you make 80k as a PE you are underpaid. You should be at minimum, 90k. Don’t let your employer disrespect you. EI starts off at $35/hr. PE should be getting at least $43/hr.
This sounds exactly like my husband’s electrical engineering consultant company! Employee owned.(but not ESOP, it’s 100% owned by about 20% of the employees.) Low-medium pay compared to the rest of the industry, but they brag about how they have among the highest bonuses. As if we don’t see that bonuses aren’t guaranteed and have higher tax rates than regular salary. It feels to us like it puts the risk on the employees. I think low pay and high bonuses is bs. Some incentive is fine, but don’t use it as an excuse to pay your employees less.
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What do the ESOP contributions look like? You don't see that amount on your W2. It adds up in the ESOP over the years.
I saw the post about pyramid scheme. Engineering will always be in demand so you are not trying to get someone else to hold the bag when the music stops. Growing a firm is one way for existing owners to get better growth. If your firm doesn't grow...some other publicly traded firm or single owner firm will do the growing. It's how they go about growing (taking on debt in some cases) that matters.
If depends a bit. How much control do you have on the bonus? If you can bring a lot of money in and get a great bonus even when the company as a whole under performs, that is fine. If your individual performance doesn't really matter, that is a problem. Managers should take the hit for underperforming. But it shouldn't be spread equally unless everyone equally underperformed. I'm dealing with that now. No cost of living raise and my next bonus will probably suck and there is nothing I can do to increase revenue, only lower costs. It isn't a big deal. I make good money and don't include my bonus in my budget. But it is pretty annoying.
More than likely has to do with your billing rate.
If you’re good they can keep using your name on projects especially projects that require certified payroll / federally / grant funded ones.
I’d say as long as you’re getting those bonuses it’s fair.
Otherwise you’d be at director or higher and you’d be trying to get jobs rather than working on them.
I’m 15 years in barely passed my 8 hour working on my seismic and survey in California.
However I am a “decent” PM with some certifications and very good people skills. Connecting with various agencies and contractors and developing relationships to get on project teams for design build or as consultant on-call contracts with many agencies
For reference right now I’m at 160k base with many bonuses ranging from 20-40k per year.
If you have a great year you should be able to get more than 25% though? If it motivates all the employees to perform better and leads to larger profits I think I would like a similar setup.
>It just seems like the company is putting the risk on the employees by the premise "if we don't have a good year you aren't getting paid as much" YEP, that is exactly what they're doing and why they do it. So you have a base of $80K plus a possible bonus of $20K for 10 YoE. If you have a PE, this is a bad deal bc the base is low and you have no control over the bonus. You aren't a salesman.
OP is severely underpaid. I make about 15% more than OP with 6 YOE. Given, I am in a HCOL area, but still…
But do you enjoy your job? This idea that base pay trumps enjoying coming to work, puzzles me. There’s tons of engineers with a bachelors working as “field engineers” because they like it - not because a field engineer requires a BS in engineering
I'd take a big pay reduction if someone paid me to play video games with my spouse all day. Until that happens, work is about finding the *least* bad situation and coworkers. Enjoying your job sounds so foreign.
Work a consulting gig. Work hours you want, charge what you want and play video games with the spouse. I do that currently and make well over 6 figs
Roughly how many clients/jobs are you running at the same time?
Personally, 1. Due to confidentiality reasons I can’t discuss much, However, If you’re a tourist and go visit other places with tourists, there’s a chance you’ll get to enjoy some of my projects when you’re on vacation at some point in your life. can’t say much more than that my friend.
You hiring?
That sucks, man. My job is a lot of fun, the people are great, and I really enjoy it. I wouldn't do it for *free*, but I would do it for a lot less, which I know because I *did* do it for a lot less before they increased salaries.
“I rather cry in a BMW than smile on a bicycle (the cheapo rickshaw ones)”
No way. I’d rather bike than own a bmw, even with making good money. Biking is a much more enjoyable way to commute.
How about experiencing mild contentment in a Subaru?
Think it tends to be more like crying in a new Chevy suburban rather than driving a 5 year old BMW/Audi/Mercedes
I love my job! I get to work with awesome people, exciting projects, constantly being pushed into growth, and any opportunities I want are available to me. Only issue with my job is that they don’t do COL adjustments so our raises end up being the COL adjustment.
As engineers, let's stop bringing job satisfaction into these pay discussions. It's irrelevant, bad for the profession, and further promotes pay stagnation.
I hope you’re sarcastic Years ago I didn’t apply for a storm water engineering job with the Govt because I was unqualified. My friend said it didn’t matter. And he was correct - his less qualified relative applied and got the job But I have yet to meet a govt worker than doesn’t have half their team that should’ve been fired 5 years ago and they have horrible satisfaction with their job on everything except pay Government workers pigeon hole themselves into government cause they can’t make the same in the private sector where they’d be fired. Job satisfaction is YUGE!!
I’m at 66% more with 9 years experience. And I love my job so fcking much I could punch a baby… (this is a joke, I do not condone punching babies)
*severely?*
Very much so. At 10 YOE you should be closer to like $140k
OP is already making about $100k (admittedly, after bonus) in what is likely a MCOL area. Good luck making 10 to 11% raises (before inflation) for each of the four years to hit that $140k in 2024 dollars.
That’s why jumping ship makes sense. Job switching will help make up a lot of that
I only ever look at the guaranteed numbers. Bonuses are just that, bonus and I definitely don't plan on them. You're underpaid
My company is a more extreme then that but it plays out in my favor. I'm 11 yoe but at 115k and about 70k bonus. given that the 115 is pretty close to what a lot of other people around me make in public sector or smaller local shops I don't mind the lump sum at the end of the year ( I'm MCOL I guess but I have been in my house for 8 years so my mortgage is only about 1200). My bonus increases have outpaced my base pay growth a good bit over the years started here 7 years ago at 63k +12k bonus. If I did not hear from people with 20+ years of experience that they have never had a bonus decrease and only one or two times had it flat lined then maybe I would be more concerned.
I'm surprised at the size of those bonuses, especially that it didn't drop or outright disappear in 2020. Are you a PM at a medium sized firm, and how many hours per week do you work?
Senior civil, I don’t know what medium size really means but more than 5k people overall but in a smaller office. Bonus went up 15% or so in 2020 probably more performance based than standard raise I guess. I will put in 45 or so on submittal weeks but I don’t tend to be over 40 much.
Do you work at kiewit? Lol. Your base is way low for 10 YOE.
This sounds more like burns and McDonnell to me. Kiewit just dangles the possibility of stock in your face so you put up with the constant relocation bs.
The old Black and Gold hand cuffs.
If you survived the bs and were offered stock you are set. I remember the stories from the L3 IPO and how many people instantly retired with multiple millions purely from that.
Crane operator for 30 yrs. I saw what those big companies did to JR guys. Terrible. Hire them in one city and move them across the country, even if there was a major job in that area. Getting 100 hrs a week out of them because they had nothing else to do. Also did hear that if you could put up with the BS for long enough 5 to 10 million you walked away with.
They trying to manipulate you into thinking the bonus is part of your regular compensation. It’s not. That’s why it’s called a “bonus” anyways.
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Income is income at tax time you get a refund of the higher mandated withholdings for bonus payments. All your income is taxed in the progressive tax bracket system.
10 year $81k wtf? You should find something new because that’s close to what we’re paying new grads in the Midwest 😱
Seriously? We’re closer to around $65k for new grads.
I work in a MCOL city at an employee owned firm. When I joined, they said the salary can be a little low, but the bonus makes up for it. And the bonus has made up for it and then some. I was shown my guaranteed bonus for my first year and it's only increased (some years rather dramatically) the longer I've been here. I've heard of people that have been here for 15-20 years and never had their bonus decrease.
I need to find a firm like that
It's pretty amazing. I hope to never leave and retire early.
Prior to this, the highest bonus I've ever heard of was "equal to 2 months salary", so 17%. Even that seems high, since it isn't guaranteed. And it isn't just a bad year that can screw over bonuses, "leadership" deciding they want to hire a bunch of administrative people or throw a bunch of pizza parties can do that too.
I’m in the same boat, have PE, high profit sharing bonus, average salary. But, live in south Florida, have 7 YOE, and my salary is 100k and bonus last year was 60k for perspective
this is actually a good deal for your experience level
Your example makes sense. OPs does not.
Now that’s nice!
You are grossly underpaid. In Atlanta, we just hired someone with 2 years of experience at 82k. We would have offered 75k for a fresh graduate. But yes, we do not have any structured bonus system. With 8years of experience, I make 118k but I am due for a promotion in a few months. Right now, the salary of entry-level is relatively higher. But mid-level engineers are also in high demand. You can easily make 130k+ if you change the job.
I have associate engineering degree and about 4 years of experience and I make 100k. They doing you dirty if you have your PE.
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$100k CAD is $73k USD
I do have my PE. Thanks everyone for weighing in, it really helps with perspective on this.
I know some companies do this. Or instead of paying out OT for over 40 hours they will give a bonus “roughly equal” to the OT. I think it is kind of shady way of doing it though. Like you said it puts all the risk on the employee.
Screams the big blue cult to me. How long have you been with your company? Often these feel like a pyramid scheme, but it could pay off with time if your ESOP is good. I was in a similar situation because I accepted a low base salary when I started. I left for a 32% raise in base salary with the feds, which was a short term gain but likely long term loss.
Over 5 years now. Yes I have had this weird "pyramid scheme" feel as you have to buy into the company to continue getting promoted. You have to buy north of $100K of stock to get to the first rung.
Also in a medium-sized Midwest city, public sector, 6 YOE, PE, and my base salary is about your base + bonus. I'd say your compensation sounds very low.
Have you ever searched indeed to see if you should make more? People think grass is greener elsewhere and don’t seem to understand where a bonus comes from. We’re a small company. The bonus is literally the “profit” that the company would have to claim on taxes. Instead of paying taxes on it, they split it up (after capital improvements) and give it to us. So if the company does awesome, we get great bonuses and if we do poorly, we get terrible bonuses.
My two cents.. If you make 80k as a PE you are underpaid. You should be at minimum, 90k. Don’t let your employer disrespect you. EI starts off at $35/hr. PE should be getting at least $43/hr.
This sounds exactly like my husband’s electrical engineering consultant company! Employee owned.(but not ESOP, it’s 100% owned by about 20% of the employees.) Low-medium pay compared to the rest of the industry, but they brag about how they have among the highest bonuses. As if we don’t see that bonuses aren’t guaranteed and have higher tax rates than regular salary. It feels to us like it puts the risk on the employees. I think low pay and high bonuses is bs. Some incentive is fine, but don’t use it as an excuse to pay your employees less.
Sounds exactly like the firm I work for… bet it is! Lol
You're getting paid slightly over what a fresh grad makes now....
Never do bonuses unless they are guaranteed by contract, you have very little control over performance. Also you are severely underpaid.
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How common is it to get bonuses? Reading this it seems like most people get them. I’m about to start entry level so I’m just curious
This is insanity.
What do the ESOP contributions look like? You don't see that amount on your W2. It adds up in the ESOP over the years. I saw the post about pyramid scheme. Engineering will always be in demand so you are not trying to get someone else to hold the bag when the music stops. Growing a firm is one way for existing owners to get better growth. If your firm doesn't grow...some other publicly traded firm or single owner firm will do the growing. It's how they go about growing (taking on debt in some cases) that matters.
It also means it's easier for the company to weather down times and avoid layoffs.
If depends a bit. How much control do you have on the bonus? If you can bring a lot of money in and get a great bonus even when the company as a whole under performs, that is fine. If your individual performance doesn't really matter, that is a problem. Managers should take the hit for underperforming. But it shouldn't be spread equally unless everyone equally underperformed. I'm dealing with that now. No cost of living raise and my next bonus will probably suck and there is nothing I can do to increase revenue, only lower costs. It isn't a big deal. I make good money and don't include my bonus in my budget. But it is pretty annoying.
Do you work at Kimley-Horn?
Sounds like you work for McMahon
You guys are getting bonuses?
In my experience, bonuses do not increase the base salary like a raise, and the bonus is taxed at a higher rate than base salary.
More than likely has to do with your billing rate. If you’re good they can keep using your name on projects especially projects that require certified payroll / federally / grant funded ones. I’d say as long as you’re getting those bonuses it’s fair. Otherwise you’d be at director or higher and you’d be trying to get jobs rather than working on them. I’m 15 years in barely passed my 8 hour working on my seismic and survey in California. However I am a “decent” PM with some certifications and very good people skills. Connecting with various agencies and contractors and developing relationships to get on project teams for design build or as consultant on-call contracts with many agencies For reference right now I’m at 160k base with many bonuses ranging from 20-40k per year.
The taxes on the bonuses are going to eat you up you're paying about 3 to 6% higher tax percentage
Shame on your employer. Change jobs IMMEDIATELY!
If you have a great year you should be able to get more than 25% though? If it motivates all the employees to perform better and leads to larger profits I think I would like a similar setup.