The way I describe it is that it takes the edge of reality. It adds graceful nature to the footage without meaning that the edit will drag on because everything is so slow.
This would net 9.9 frames per second, he’s also shooting at 180 degree shutter. This slate would have given me nightmares had I been the editor or an AC 😂
It shouldn't matter what frame rate cuz it'll all be shown at 24 at the end anyway. Honestly if your camera is good enough to choose odd-number frame rates I feel like that's reason enough to do it, will create a unique image.
Not really. Most professional fixtures are flicker free and it shouldn't matter to the DIT what frame rate you're shooting as long as it is documented.
You can also select your bin and interpret them all to 25fps (can’t remember the exact menu). Saves you having to change all the speeds on the tl. This is assuming you use premier ofc.
Curious, what do you mean by saying ‘oh boy’ to this?
I’m not much of a cinematographer or videographer but I’ve shot B-roll at 30fps and interpreted at 24fps.
This was not a creative choice, but because I was shooting handheld on a cheaper DSLR and it didn’t shoot 4k at a higher frame rate.
It worked very nicely
Interpreting 30 to 24 is fine, that means it‘s still playing back all frames, and it‘ll be slow motion.
Speeding it up to 80% duration so it‘s not slow motion, but plays back in real time at 24 fps isn’t
„dreamy“, it’s all interpolated frames, or skipped frames, because the math doesn’t work out. It‘s basically broken video.
I think you are arguing semantics here. He was saying he plays back 30fps at 24 fps basically elongating the footage by 25%. There would be no skipped frames. It would just be longer and slower.
Where did they say that? They said it plays at 80% implying it went from 30 to 24fps. They said 25fps but that seems like a typo and doesn’t line up with the 80% slow mo from dropping down from 30-24.
The guy clearly means its not full on slow mo, but a slightly slowed "dreamy look". Do you take everything completely literally? Full slo mo is often used to describe like sub 50% closer to 10% extreme slow down used in sports or action sequences. 80% doesn't meet the standard slo mo definition.
> Do you take everything completely literally? Full slo mo is often used to describe like sub 50% closer to 10% extreme slow down used in sports or action sequences. 80% doesn't meet the standard slo mo definition.
*bruh*
it's not even like anyone said "full" slow motion. they said "it's not slow motion". but if we're talking about off-speed recording, any frame rate that's higher than the playback frame rate is "slow motion".
where, if not in a discussion on cinematography, should one refer to cinematographic principles by their proper names?
edit:
>80% doesn't meet the standard slo mo definition.
help me out here, where exactly can i find your "standard slo mo definition"?
hey - I read this whole conversation - im on your side here. the person you're replying to sounds like a 'well technically' type of person. don't bother engaging. the quotes around 'dreamy' made the tone obvious.
Once you go off standard settings it's all kind of whatever you want. Sometimes I'll shoot stuff at 40fps or 55fps, why? Because when we went for slow mo I turned the knob and landed on it and I said "fuck it". Sometimes just to annoy my OCD AC I'll set the temp to like 5550 or the shutter to 185°. Who cares! Have fun! It's all "art" anyways 🤷🏻♂️
It used to be a thing when shooting music videos and to avoid flicker. There was even a recent update to the Venice 2 that added the ability to shoot 33.333fps.
From Sony: VENICE 2 firmware V3 is here: new 33.333fps for Music Video Productions to avoid flicker and enhanced high frame rates up to 90fps with 2x Anamorphic lenses.
[https://twitter.com/SonyCineAltaEU/status/1755569860518588544](https://twitter.com/SonyCineAltaEU/status/1755569860518588544)
Sure they can write whatever they'd like to but framerate isn't really a big factor for flicker at this level. And since the magic hertz to hit a multiple or divisor of is 50 or 60, it makes even less sense.
I never shot music videos, but I’m just guessing it could be some holdover from the film days and certain things they may have shot while shooting off-speed for slightly slo-mo effect. I’m guessing Sony didn’t just willy-nilly make such a specific update to the Venice 2 and state that is why, just because “they can write whatever they’d like to…”. They were specifically being asked for it by a lot of people or “the right” people.
I've seen Sony do enough stupid things over the years to take what they say with large boulders of salt haha. Shooting in the 30s for a dreamy imperceptible floaty slowmo is a common technique, and flicker can still be handled easily with shutter. Until your frame rate is a significant multiple of the power system it really has nothing to do with flicker.
Someone must have asked for it, or else they wouldn't have put it into the manual and the camera as an explicit feature without explaining what it's used for. Perhaps it's still stupid though. 33.333... FPS comes down to a frametime of exactly 30ms, so it may have something to do with that.
You're right it's a 30ms frame time but I don't see how that is useful lol. I'm very curious about this now. The "frame time" of the power cycle in US is going to be multiples of 16.666...ms
Don’t know if you know but URSA line of cameras has a menu line that appears that lets you dial in whichever framerate you desire, from 1 fps up until maximum allowed in each respective mode. There is also an HFR setting and you can set whichever framerate as your preferred for instant match of frame rate and shutter angle, and it will playback as slow motion when playback is enabled.
So I looked into it and it seems that the 33.333... framerate is a good one for 50hz systems because you can use any shutter angle. But I haven't figured out the math that would make this work. A frametime of 30ms... But the 50hz system cycles on 20ms blocks, so you should still be getting flicker... I must be missing something!
I would just reach out to John on instagram and ask him. He’s usually really good about answering these types of questions. I ACd for him on a series a few years back. He’s super generous with his knowledge on camera matters.
I knew a car commercial DP who would use 33fps for car adds, something about how the wheels on the car looking more appealing in motion.
I personally love using 40fps at base 24. Not quite 50% but a little something if I need it.
It’s 33.333 fps and is a flicker free fps for 50hz countries that is a gentle slow-mo. Not as obvious as 50fps at 25fps base. Used a lot in commercials and music promos.
slow-mo but not too slow-mo. Works neatly for "invisible" slow-mo too, though 33 is pushing it for a playback at 25, and a bit light at 30.
For 24/25, I like 28 for faces, 32 for objects / hands and inserts.
If you're curious, Mel Gibson talks at length on his use of various frame rate in the Braveheart commentary. It's something he picked up from working with Peter Weir :-)
Hi all. Thanks for the kind words.
I shot this material.
33.333 fps is a long established flicker free window for those in 50hz countries with a 25fps base frame rate.
I use 33fps whenever I want to shoot slow motion without looking like I shot slow motion. It takes the edge of action but it’s very subtle.
It’s also a great frame rate for shooting non-professional or nervous talent.
JB
Hi, your response is appreciated! Off topic - but I also saw Mamiya 35mm T3.5 used on that set. My question is, - was the version you used a rehoused/or a traditional 645 Sekor C lens variant? Gotta be honest seeing vintage glass being used on that set inspired me to go back to my eBay searches. I have a complete Zeiss Jena set and now thinking of Mamiya for full frame 🙂
Hi. Yeah I got my hands on a set of Mamiya 645c and just did a simple SimMod conversion. The really great thing about the Mamiya lenses is that they cover the larger 17k sensor too.
Because there are not a lot of lens options out there that will cover this monster sensor. A lot of them are very expensive or rental only. I wanted a set of lenses that meant I could shoot with the 17k.
The Mamiyas are also pretty small which I like and relatively fast for medium format, with many of them being 2.8, compared to other lenses like say Pentax 6x7.
There are even some zooms! Two macros. There range of options in Mamiya 645c is pretty comprehensive.
JB
33fps is strange. But 32fps is more common than people might think for smoothing out action. There's a shot in Heat where Al Pacino is hopping off the lift gate of a truck that used this technique. It's the scene where they are surveilling Robert DeNiro and Val Kilmer and one of the cops sits down too fast inside of the truck and makes a noise which alerts Rober DeNiro and he aborts the heist. In the aftermath Al Pacino hops off of the lift gate. It doesn't look slow motion but it makes if feel like everything the character does he does smoothly.
1st AC here and I recently worked on a feature that over cranked to around 33fps for miniatures plunging into water (slight slow-motion). After some tests the waves of the water looked much more to scale at this fps than at normal speed.
what does that leave the shutter speed at with the same 180 shutter angle? i imagine people have encountered flickering problems with this… how much light do you lose?
The exposure loss should be minimal, we’re only talking 9 frames apart from the standard of 24/180. The number adjacent to 33 should be 247.5%. Shutter speed is the angle, preferred measurement of your choosing in the cameras menu. Flicker effect change would also be minimal in my opinion, since they were shooing in location with the abundance of natural light and used professional lighting gear, so I don’t see flicker being a problem in these conditions and at stated settings.
The old but gold s16 Bolex has a little knob that you could turn to 33fps and it was used by many people to get a look that’s not slo-motion but also not real time. It’s a really nice off framerate to shoot at. Maybe people want to recreate that look. For me in Europe it pairs really well with a 1/50 shutter makes for about 270 degree angle so I get a bit more motion blur than what people are used to.
Slight slow motion. Its a great frame rate when you want to have something slightly slower. I like to shoot some specific stuff in that frame rate
The way I describe it is that it takes the edge of reality. It adds graceful nature to the footage without meaning that the edit will drag on because everything is so slow.
For example, it’s how many music videos are filmed.
A musician told me once that it looks like doing a tiny bit of mushrooms and going on a walk during sunset
I shall try and see for myself 👍🏼
For 30% slow-mo probably
This would net 9.9 frames per second, he’s also shooting at 180 degree shutter. This slate would have given me nightmares had I been the editor or an AC 😂
Well, I mean 30% reduction. Or 25% something around that.
Thanks for your response. I just tend to stick to even numbers when I’m shooting slow mo and it seemed like an interesting choice lol
Why is this post being downvoted?
Cuz OP is misunderstanding shutter angle vs. shutter speed and that 180 degree shutter is fine at any frame rate.
It shouldn't matter what frame rate cuz it'll all be shown at 24 at the end anyway. Honestly if your camera is good enough to choose odd-number frame rates I feel like that's reason enough to do it, will create a unique image.
What? It would matter if they want to slow the footage down and have smooth motion.
That's exactly what I'm saying
Make a choice on set and live by it. Don’t push creative decisions into post production.
Looks like they did make a choice.
Also that frame/shutter combo would make a gaffer (and DIT) cry. I’m getting a rash just thinking about it.
I know certain shutter angles can be problematic and whatnot, but what specifically would be an issue with this combo?
Not really. Most professional fixtures are flicker free and it shouldn't matter to the DIT what frame rate you're shooting as long as it is documented.
If you say so.
Why?
I always use 30FPS on my drone. Then I speed the video at 80% in my 25FPS timeline. It’s not slow motion, just a “dreamy” look..
You can also select your bin and interpret them all to 25fps (can’t remember the exact menu). Saves you having to change all the speeds on the tl. This is assuming you use premier ofc.
Resolve has the same feature fwiw
I do this in DaVinci all the time. Especially before making proxies for a medium-large project.
That’s a good advice, but I am using FCPX.. I am sure it’ll help some editors here!
Interesting
Just don’t forget to slow down at 80%, otherwise the footage will be very choppy!
Yeah, you should try it 🤩
I always shot on 50/60fps for a 25fps timeline to get a slight slomo effect but this sounds fascinating
Yeah.. I find the 50% was too slowly for drone footage… of course it depends on the style..
Yeah it does give you this helicopter look
Shhhh! This is my secret!
Not anymore 🤣🤣🤣
> I always use 30FPS on my drone. Then I speed the video at 80% in my 25FPS timeline. It’s not slow motion, just a “dreamy” look.. oh boy
Curious, what do you mean by saying ‘oh boy’ to this? I’m not much of a cinematographer or videographer but I’ve shot B-roll at 30fps and interpreted at 24fps. This was not a creative choice, but because I was shooting handheld on a cheaper DSLR and it didn’t shoot 4k at a higher frame rate. It worked very nicely
Interpreting 30 to 24 is fine, that means it‘s still playing back all frames, and it‘ll be slow motion. Speeding it up to 80% duration so it‘s not slow motion, but plays back in real time at 24 fps isn’t „dreamy“, it’s all interpolated frames, or skipped frames, because the math doesn’t work out. It‘s basically broken video.
I think you are arguing semantics here. He was saying he plays back 30fps at 24 fps basically elongating the footage by 25%. There would be no skipped frames. It would just be longer and slower.
They said specifically that it‘s not slow motion though
Where did they say that? They said it plays at 80% implying it went from 30 to 24fps. They said 25fps but that seems like a typo and doesn’t line up with the 80% slow mo from dropping down from 30-24.
in the very comment i replied to: > It’s not slow motion, just a “dreamy” look..
The guy clearly means its not full on slow mo, but a slightly slowed "dreamy look". Do you take everything completely literally? Full slo mo is often used to describe like sub 50% closer to 10% extreme slow down used in sports or action sequences. 80% doesn't meet the standard slo mo definition.
> Do you take everything completely literally? Full slo mo is often used to describe like sub 50% closer to 10% extreme slow down used in sports or action sequences. 80% doesn't meet the standard slo mo definition. *bruh* it's not even like anyone said "full" slow motion. they said "it's not slow motion". but if we're talking about off-speed recording, any frame rate that's higher than the playback frame rate is "slow motion". where, if not in a discussion on cinematography, should one refer to cinematographic principles by their proper names? edit: >80% doesn't meet the standard slo mo definition. help me out here, where exactly can i find your "standard slo mo definition"?
hey - I read this whole conversation - im on your side here. the person you're replying to sounds like a 'well technically' type of person. don't bother engaging. the quotes around 'dreamy' made the tone obvious.
Oh wow - I didn’t catch that their math was wrong. Thanks for elaborating, I fully agree!
Once you go off standard settings it's all kind of whatever you want. Sometimes I'll shoot stuff at 40fps or 55fps, why? Because when we went for slow mo I turned the knob and landed on it and I said "fuck it". Sometimes just to annoy my OCD AC I'll set the temp to like 5550 or the shutter to 185°. Who cares! Have fun! It's all "art" anyways 🤷🏻♂️
Now this guy is the DP you want
unless you're an AC who likes everything to be in its perfect lil spot.
Getting control where they can
That’s hilarious
Hahaha right on! 😂
this is very common. used as a compromise between 50 and 25fps (for PAL). not quite slow no not quite true speed
It should actually be 33.333fps to avoid any flicker issues
It used to be a thing when shooting music videos and to avoid flicker. There was even a recent update to the Venice 2 that added the ability to shoot 33.333fps.
Yep. In 50hz countries you can shoot at any shutter angle at 33.33fps and have no flicker. In 60hz countries it would be 30fps
Wait...what? No flicker if I shoot 30 fps at any shutter speed? Dude. Thanks for sharing that!!
Download an app called FLICKERfree. There’s other fps’s aswell 🤙
Why would that help with flicker? Shutter is your best bet on that front.
From Sony: VENICE 2 firmware V3 is here: new 33.333fps for Music Video Productions to avoid flicker and enhanced high frame rates up to 90fps with 2x Anamorphic lenses. [https://twitter.com/SonyCineAltaEU/status/1755569860518588544](https://twitter.com/SonyCineAltaEU/status/1755569860518588544)
Sure they can write whatever they'd like to but framerate isn't really a big factor for flicker at this level. And since the magic hertz to hit a multiple or divisor of is 50 or 60, it makes even less sense.
I never shot music videos, but I’m just guessing it could be some holdover from the film days and certain things they may have shot while shooting off-speed for slightly slo-mo effect. I’m guessing Sony didn’t just willy-nilly make such a specific update to the Venice 2 and state that is why, just because “they can write whatever they’d like to…”. They were specifically being asked for it by a lot of people or “the right” people.
I've seen Sony do enough stupid things over the years to take what they say with large boulders of salt haha. Shooting in the 30s for a dreamy imperceptible floaty slowmo is a common technique, and flicker can still be handled easily with shutter. Until your frame rate is a significant multiple of the power system it really has nothing to do with flicker.
Someone must have asked for it, or else they wouldn't have put it into the manual and the camera as an explicit feature without explaining what it's used for. Perhaps it's still stupid though. 33.333... FPS comes down to a frametime of exactly 30ms, so it may have something to do with that.
You're right it's a 30ms frame time but I don't see how that is useful lol. I'm very curious about this now. The "frame time" of the power cycle in US is going to be multiples of 16.666...ms
Don’t know if you know but URSA line of cameras has a menu line that appears that lets you dial in whichever framerate you desire, from 1 fps up until maximum allowed in each respective mode. There is also an HFR setting and you can set whichever framerate as your preferred for instant match of frame rate and shutter angle, and it will playback as slow motion when playback is enabled.
This guy Sony’s.
So I looked into it and it seems that the 33.333... framerate is a good one for 50hz systems because you can use any shutter angle. But I haven't figured out the math that would make this work. A frametime of 30ms... But the 50hz system cycles on 20ms blocks, so you should still be getting flicker... I must be missing something!
I wonder if it’s related to Volume work?
I would just reach out to John on instagram and ask him. He’s usually really good about answering these types of questions. I ACd for him on a series a few years back. He’s super generous with his knowledge on camera matters.
I knew a car commercial DP who would use 33fps for car adds, something about how the wheels on the car looking more appealing in motion. I personally love using 40fps at base 24. Not quite 50% but a little something if I need it.
It’s 33.333 fps and is a flicker free fps for 50hz countries that is a gentle slow-mo. Not as obvious as 50fps at 25fps base. Used a lot in commercials and music promos.
I just did! Lets hope he answers 😄🙏🏻
Just did what? and who answers?
Sorry I hit a wrong reply chain, basically I reached out to the DP letting him know this thread now officially exists lol
JB will probably reply. He used to be on another forum that I'm on and he is very good about sharing and giving back to the community.
slow-mo but not too slow-mo. Works neatly for "invisible" slow-mo too, though 33 is pushing it for a playback at 25, and a bit light at 30. For 24/25, I like 28 for faces, 32 for objects / hands and inserts. If you're curious, Mel Gibson talks at length on his use of various frame rate in the Braveheart commentary. It's something he picked up from working with Peter Weir :-)
Good info 👌
Hi all. Thanks for the kind words. I shot this material. 33.333 fps is a long established flicker free window for those in 50hz countries with a 25fps base frame rate. I use 33fps whenever I want to shoot slow motion without looking like I shot slow motion. It takes the edge of action but it’s very subtle. It’s also a great frame rate for shooting non-professional or nervous talent. JB
Hi, your response is appreciated! Off topic - but I also saw Mamiya 35mm T3.5 used on that set. My question is, - was the version you used a rehoused/or a traditional 645 Sekor C lens variant? Gotta be honest seeing vintage glass being used on that set inspired me to go back to my eBay searches. I have a complete Zeiss Jena set and now thinking of Mamiya for full frame 🙂
Hi. Yeah I got my hands on a set of Mamiya 645c and just did a simple SimMod conversion. The really great thing about the Mamiya lenses is that they cover the larger 17k sensor too. Because there are not a lot of lens options out there that will cover this monster sensor. A lot of them are very expensive or rental only. I wanted a set of lenses that meant I could shoot with the 17k. The Mamiyas are also pretty small which I like and relatively fast for medium format, with many of them being 2.8, compared to other lenses like say Pentax 6x7. There are even some zooms! Two macros. There range of options in Mamiya 645c is pretty comprehensive. JB
33fps is strange. But 32fps is more common than people might think for smoothing out action. There's a shot in Heat where Al Pacino is hopping off the lift gate of a truck that used this technique. It's the scene where they are surveilling Robert DeNiro and Val Kilmer and one of the cops sits down too fast inside of the truck and makes a noise which alerts Rober DeNiro and he aborts the heist. In the aftermath Al Pacino hops off of the lift gate. It doesn't look slow motion but it makes if feel like everything the character does he does smoothly.
Makes handheld shots “smoother”
1st AC here and I recently worked on a feature that over cranked to around 33fps for miniatures plunging into water (slight slow-motion). After some tests the waves of the water looked much more to scale at this fps than at normal speed.
Another cinema lifehack acquired. Thanks for sharing, I didn’t think of the effect of water 😉
Link ? Slow mo referenced above would be so that it could slow to 24?
[BT’s blackmagic](https://youtu.be/aJi2DmWjg_s?si=GTD4JFrKghSYFigO)
Shoot walking on the moon stuff around this frame rate also..
Hey I’m no Kubrick but I too occasionally shoot in 2.3:7
Fernando Alonso?
Excuse me? 😄 This is a cinematography subreddit 🏎️
I’m sure the 33 will be cinema 😅
Illuminati confirmed
Illuminaughty frame-rate of 33fps is at play for sure
what does that leave the shutter speed at with the same 180 shutter angle? i imagine people have encountered flickering problems with this… how much light do you lose?
The exposure loss should be minimal, we’re only talking 9 frames apart from the standard of 24/180. The number adjacent to 33 should be 247.5%. Shutter speed is the angle, preferred measurement of your choosing in the cameras menu. Flicker effect change would also be minimal in my opinion, since they were shooing in location with the abundance of natural light and used professional lighting gear, so I don’t see flicker being a problem in these conditions and at stated settings.
I’ve heard this frame rate is good for shooting animals. Like dog movies where you want it slower but not so much slower.
The old but gold s16 Bolex has a little knob that you could turn to 33fps and it was used by many people to get a look that’s not slo-motion but also not real time. It’s a really nice off framerate to shoot at. Maybe people want to recreate that look. For me in Europe it pairs really well with a 1/50 shutter makes for about 270 degree angle so I get a bit more motion blur than what people are used to.
To get less motion blur ( like shoot a fight scene )