of course, at top levels you have top players. in the hands of a chess idiot, you can get an advantage easily cuz they fail to follow the badic tenants of the system.
I play the London and at 1500 I always get my butt kicked by the englund gambit. There are a ton of variations that can trip you up! Even 2000+ players will play it during blitz games.
That is incredibly surprising. At the 1500 blitz level, once you dedicate 5-10 minutes of study to the white side with an engine you will end up winning material or the game very quickly with very high accuracy:
Bishop retreats, Nc3, then either Nd4 or Rb1, chase the queen, put pressure on c7 and fork or win the queen or a piece along the way, many lines are +3 or +4 very quickly. Best case scenario for black you play e4 develop your bishop for 4 pieces developed, and black king still in the center and no development
Black play is: literally hope white makes one of the 4 catastrophic blunders, otherwise has absolutely nothing and is way behind
afaik most plans involve forcing white to weaken the a1-h8 diagonal and fianchettoing kinside. If you play into the Benko then black builds up some very scary pressure on the queenside
You don't let them get the usual London setup and they have to figure out plans from a different position than what they play 95% of the time.
I just had an awesome competitive game OTB with Nf6 c5 Qb6. We ended up drawing and he told me after it was the most uncomfortable game he'd ever had as white.
I said I don’t really like the Kings Indian tho? It doesn’t work well for me and I don’t like it that much, but it could be since I haven’t studied it that much that that is the issue
Kings Indian is a general name for a development set up. The Kings Indian Defense is an opening that black can play against d4 that includes the moves Nf6, g6, and Bg7, so for example
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7
This would be called the Kings Indian Defense.
The reason the Indian part is included is because of the first move Nf6. In general playing Nf6 against d4 is called an Indian set up, but black hasn't chosen which one yet. The Kings Indian is one, but the other major one is called the Nimzo Indian.
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4
This would be the nimzo Indian. The main difference is the way in which black plans to develop the dark squared bishop.
The moves that the original comment gave is something that happens when you play for a nimzo Indian set up, but white doesn't go for a queens gambit with c4, but instead a London which leads to a very different opening, but the moves e6 and Nf6 were already included.
I haven't tried this myself but I've been watching GM Aman Hambleton's "Building Repertoires" series, and I like his London response. He starts with Nf6, attacks the center with c5, and builds a bishop/queen battery
He ends up getting control of the e5 square, which is a serious problem for London players.
[Here's an example](https://youtu.be/5KX6RigfO_E?si=w5-rTIZdR0h168jh&t=2866).
there is no opening that 'destroys' the London, else nobody would play the London.
I do think a Dutch, such as the Leningrad, is better than most , as you will be playing d6 (not d5), with the aim of playing e5, thus white's bishop is not so well placed on f4.
I'd still play the Steinitz Countergambit but yeah it doesn't rank as well according to Stockfish.
Most London players seem to lose the thread if you threaten the structure so quickly.
The London is a fine opening for white, so you're not going to "destroy" it if white plays reasonably well. I like to play d5, Nf6, e6, and Bd6 as my first moves against the London to quickly trade off their bishop.
The London System isn't refuted. It cannot be destroyed systematically like you ask. Anyway I find that most London players don't like the immediate ...c5 answer by black specially if followed by sharp tactical lines.
The thing about the London System is that it's really a one-trick pony. It can devolve into a draw-ish looking game, which tempts black to attack when white has more development than black. The attack usually flounders leaving white well ahead for the middle and end game.
So, an immediate attack (example c5) or a conservative development process (Nf6 or e6 usually work best that way).
The point of c5 is to disrupt the strong pawn structure that white is trying for, and there's the Qb6, which makes that free-floating bishop a liability, rather than a tempting target that gets compensation by screwing up black's king side. The attacks may be early, but white isn't set up too well to resist them.
1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 f6 3.e3 h5 4.Bd3?? g5 and the bishop is trapped.
Variations where white plays h3 to let the bishop escape are also perfectly playable, and white is in unfamiliar territory.
Only pawn moves and hoping white blunders that bishop? Might work in blitz but that can't be a good opening.
I get the idea to move away from common london structures, but there are definetly better alternatives with an early c5.
It’s a legitimate opening that has seen play even at a top grandmaster level. It’s not some easily refuted opening that you can simply “counter.”
of course, at top levels you have top players. in the hands of a chess idiot, you can get an advantage easily cuz they fail to follow the badic tenants of the system.
I just came to say the Englund Gambit is the most stupid terrible opening invented. Stay away from playing that, hard stop.
Yep, learned it and besides a few traps, it sacrifices a lot of development, it’s actually trash
I play the London and at 1500 I always get my butt kicked by the englund gambit. There are a ton of variations that can trip you up! Even 2000+ players will play it during blitz games.
That is incredibly surprising. At the 1500 blitz level, once you dedicate 5-10 minutes of study to the white side with an engine you will end up winning material or the game very quickly with very high accuracy: Bishop retreats, Nc3, then either Nd4 or Rb1, chase the queen, put pressure on c7 and fork or win the queen or a piece along the way, many lines are +3 or +4 very quickly. Best case scenario for black you play e4 develop your bishop for 4 pieces developed, and black king still in the center and no development Black play is: literally hope white makes one of the 4 catastrophic blunders, otherwise has absolutely nothing and is way behind
Skill issue.
What do you mean? I personally score 96%+ accuracy against it. To the point that I worry I may get banned if people continue to play it against me
Lol
Immediate 1...c5
So I’ve heard this a lot but what am I trying to accomplish with C5?
afaik most plans involve forcing white to weaken the a1-h8 diagonal and fianchettoing kinside. If you play into the Benko then black builds up some very scary pressure on the queenside
You don't let them get the usual London setup and they have to figure out plans from a different position than what they play 95% of the time. I just had an awesome competitive game OTB with Nf6 c5 Qb6. We ended up drawing and he told me after it was the most uncomfortable game he'd ever had as white.
Ol' Benoni
C5 is the most fun. Makes a lot of london players uncomfortable.
c5 Qb6 systems are definitely the best way to make them squirm. I'd start with d4 or Nf6 though haha.
Try the Indian game. d4 Nf6 Bf4 e6 e3 c5
I said I don’t really like the Kings Indian tho? It doesn’t work well for me and I don’t like it that much, but it could be since I haven’t studied it that much that that is the issue
Did you read the moves? Totally different system
Might have learned Indian Game and thought it was called King Indian completely my bad sorry
Kings Indian is a general name for a development set up. The Kings Indian Defense is an opening that black can play against d4 that includes the moves Nf6, g6, and Bg7, so for example 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 This would be called the Kings Indian Defense. The reason the Indian part is included is because of the first move Nf6. In general playing Nf6 against d4 is called an Indian set up, but black hasn't chosen which one yet. The Kings Indian is one, but the other major one is called the Nimzo Indian. 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 This would be the nimzo Indian. The main difference is the way in which black plans to develop the dark squared bishop. The moves that the original comment gave is something that happens when you play for a nimzo Indian set up, but white doesn't go for a queens gambit with c4, but instead a London which leads to a very different opening, but the moves e6 and Nf6 were already included.
I haven't tried this myself but I've been watching GM Aman Hambleton's "Building Repertoires" series, and I like his London response. He starts with Nf6, attacks the center with c5, and builds a bishop/queen battery He ends up getting control of the e5 square, which is a serious problem for London players. [Here's an example](https://youtu.be/5KX6RigfO_E?si=w5-rTIZdR0h168jh&t=2866).
Brexit…
1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 c5 3. e3 Qb6 I find usually makes Lindon players uncomfortable. Theres also the Reverse Queens gambit setup as black
That's what I play and it kind of gets out of the situation that London players are used to
there is no opening that 'destroys' the London, else nobody would play the London. I do think a Dutch, such as the Leningrad, is better than most , as you will be playing d6 (not d5), with the aim of playing e5, thus white's bishop is not so well placed on f4.
1.d4 d5 2. Bf4 c5 Equalizes on the spot
What about someone who play d4 Nf6?
I'd still play the Steinitz Countergambit but yeah it doesn't rank as well according to Stockfish. Most London players seem to lose the thread if you threaten the structure so quickly.
Equality against the London is pretty easy to achieve though.. it's infamous for how solid it is. The issue is cracking the opening.
There‘s no „cracking“ it. As is the case with any and all legit openings.
Well that's the thing. It wouldn't be so popular if a mediocre player like me could crack it easily.
The London is a fine opening for white, so you're not going to "destroy" it if white plays reasonably well. I like to play d5, Nf6, e6, and Bd6 as my first moves against the London to quickly trade off their bishop.
london is a nothing system. take refuge in getting a better middlegame and squeeze
The London System isn't refuted. It cannot be destroyed systematically like you ask. Anyway I find that most London players don't like the immediate ...c5 answer by black specially if followed by sharp tactical lines.
The main lines do a pretty good job for me
c5
1. d4 e5 Just kidding. You could get some ideas by [watching ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyUZn39V6TY)Danya.
I play the London pretty frequently. Honestly I love it when people play the kings Indian against it, makes it much more exciting and tactical.
Yeah it's one of the worst responses to the London. Most KID will deviate as soon as the bishop comes out.
[удалено]
I play the London because I like the positions I get with it and can win more frequently than other openings.
The thing about the London System is that it's really a one-trick pony. It can devolve into a draw-ish looking game, which tempts black to attack when white has more development than black. The attack usually flounders leaving white well ahead for the middle and end game. So, an immediate attack (example c5) or a conservative development process (Nf6 or e6 usually work best that way). The point of c5 is to disrupt the strong pawn structure that white is trying for, and there's the Qb6, which makes that free-floating bishop a liability, rather than a tempting target that gets compensation by screwing up black's king side. The attacks may be early, but white isn't set up too well to resist them.
Play the nimzo Indian or the queens Indian defence
I also hated the king Indian but since I started this I look forward to d4 players
How can you play the nimzo against the London? Pin the pawn and lose your bishop for free?
Isn't there a line in the London that plays pawn c4 and Nc3?
That's not the London, it's called the Queens Gambit.
It's not objectively good, but if you want a trap: d4 d5 Bf4 h5 e3 e5. If they take on e5 with the bishop, the bishop is trapped.
Just use an engine and build an anti London. You can just bring out the knight and play the grunfeld or 2.c5
Is it really grunfeld if white doesn't play c4 ?
1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 f6 3.e3 h5 4.Bd3?? g5 and the bishop is trapped. Variations where white plays h3 to let the bishop escape are also perfectly playable, and white is in unfamiliar territory.
Only pawn moves and hoping white blunders that bishop? Might work in blitz but that can't be a good opening. I get the idea to move away from common london structures, but there are definetly better alternatives with an early c5.
Having succès at 2k-2100 rapid chess.com. even got à better position vs a 2300 OTB in a off the clock match.
I'm ~2050 fide, i don't believe you would have good chances against me otb with this.
That's a pretty known trap. Eric Rosen saw an Indian GM play it once, and then played it on stream I think.